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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, DEFENCE AND EQUALITY díospóireacht -
Thursday, 5 Jul 2012

Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission Bill 2012: Discussion with Equality Authority

As we have a quorum we shall begin the meeting. Apologies have been received from Deputy Anne Ferris, while Deputy Calleary may be delayed as well. The purpose of today's meeting is to have a discussion on the heads of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission Bill 2012. Briefing material has been circulated. Before we begin, I ask everybody please to turn off their mobile phones as they interfere with the sound system.

On behalf of the committee, I would like to welcome Ms Angela Kerins, Ms Renee Dempsey, Mr. Brian Merriman, Dr. Carol Baxter, Mr. Laurence Bond and Ms Anne Davis, who are all from the Equality Authority. You are all very welcome. You will be invited to make brief opening remarks for five minutes and that will be followed by a questions and answers session. We try to be as focused as we can. We are briefing on the heads of the Bill, so I would ask you to address the heads you have concerns with.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, you are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence you are to give this committee. If you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call on Ms Kerins to make her opening remarks.

Ms Angela Kerins

Thank you for inviting me, as chairperson of the Equality Authority, to be here today to speak on the heads of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission Bill 2012. It should first be stated that from the time the merger between the Equality Authority and the Irish Human Rights Commission was signalled, the authority adopted a positive and constructive position on the matter. This was made clear in its submission to the working group established by the Minister for Justice and Equality to consider and advise on the matter. The working group on the Irish human rights and equality commission did excellent work and we are pleased that so many of the its recommendations have been taken on board in the heads of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission Bill 2012.

I understand that the submission of the Equality Authority on this matter has been provided to the committee already, so I propose to set out here what the Equality Authority stands for and has achieved since its establishment over 11 years ago. Since then, the Equality Authority has been to the forefront of the protection and promotion of equality in Ireland. It is recognised internationally and has built coherent partnerships with its colleague organisations in the EU and beyond. It has always worked in partnership with a wide range of organisations, dealing with all of the nine grounds which are covered by the legislation under its remit, in constructive and imaginative partnerships and campaigns.

The Equality Authority has built up an excellent reputation and regard among the general public, due to the information and advice and the excellent service it provides. The authority has always been an open, accessible organisation, which reaches out to organisations working in this field, and which is welcoming and supportive of people who may be vulnerable or who may have experienced or be at risk of discrimination. It is essential that the new human rights and equality commission retains this essential character and spirit of support which has been so integral to striving for equality in Ireland for the last decade.

The extensive range of activities of the commission envisaged in the heads of the Bill reflects the importance of its mission. In this regard, it will be crucial to ensure that the resources available to the new commission recognise, and are commensurate with, the important tasks it is charged with performing. In particular, the staff complement, the cost of transition and start up, and an appropriate accessible location must be supported.

We in the Equality Authority have experienced the challenge of having to continue service delivery in the context of significant funding cuts, all of which have been well recorded. In a time of recession, vulnerable people are at greatest risk of discrimination. We urge all committee members here today to fight for the increase in resources to human rights, and in particular the equality agenda, to ensure that ordinary people have a place that is clearly accessible to them at a time of discrimination. It is also important that the new body continues its promotion and advocacy role which underpins the culture of equality and anti-discrimination across all aspects of our society and makes our economy a good place to invest in.

I want to draw committee members' attention to some of the major achievements of the authority. Over 120,000 people have used our information services. We promoted national awareness of rights through initiatives like "Anti Racist Workplace Week", "Say No To Ageism", the EU "Year of Equal Opportunities for All", and the campaign on reasonable accommodation for people with disabilities. Our casework has protected people from discrimination across nine grounds in employment and in accessing goods, facilities, services, accommodation and education. We have established good case law in insurance, access to education, access to licensed premises, anti-harassment, pregnancy discrimination, equal opportunity, equal pay, and have equal gender balanced memberships in all but two golf clubs in Ireland arising from the Portmarnock case. Our research and legal policy combine to influence policy on civil partnership and equal marriage, carers, older people, children's rights and good parenting, surrogacy, family leave, inter-culturalism, admissions policies in schools, equality compliance in the public and private sectors, best practice in hospitality, public transport, health service provision, policing, local government, chambers of commerce, trade unions, VECs and pharmacies. Our reports and publications have been supported and partnered by the NESC, the NESF, State bodies, the CSO, the HSE, ICTU, IBEC and civil society. We have supported hundreds of companies across the country to take action on equality and to realise the benefits of equality for their business and employees. We have developed a range of equality tools suitable to very diverse sectors from mushroom picking to hospitality or financial services, and we have developed an evidence base for tracking attitudes to equality and discrimination in our society.

From a business, economic and social development viewpoint, including attracting foreign direct investment, research has established that an open, diverse, tolerant and equal society is critical to economic recovery and makes a strong business case. The comments, questions, analysis and suggestions made in the Equality Authority's submission are presented for the consideration of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality. They are not necessarily exhaustive, and in due course, the Equality Authority may make further submissions to the Minister on the draft Bill when published. I will cover some of the points from our submission here, and will be happy to answer any questions on the submission from the joint committee.

Our comments cover 14 of the heads of the Bill and I will be happy to respond to any query or to clarify any matter for the committee. I am not going to detail them here but will confine myself to some general comments. We believe that the enactment of the Bill offers a useful opportunity to reflect upon the scope of the grounds addressed by the Equality Acts and we suggest that the definition of equality may benefit from a consideration as to whether new grounds of non-discrimination should be introduced. Previously we have called for the inclusion of grounds such as socio-economic status, membership of a trade union, past criminal conviction and political beliefs. We have set out a view on transgendered persons and the provision of full legal protection for them, as the protection offered currently is implicit rather than explicit.

The authority supports the formation of a strong, independent, cohesive and fully representative commission, with the full range of skill-sets required to address the work, including the diversity of the nine grounds together with equality and human rights related functions. We also recommend that the commission should have skills in the area of human resources and industrial relations. The Equality Authority especially welcomes the new human rights and equality duty of public bodies, the so called positive duty. Our submission raises some points on the Defence Forces upon which the committee may wish to reflect.

In conclusion, the Equality Authority welcomes the new opportunity offered by the merger with the Irish Human Rights Commission to enhance the activities of both. We will work constructively towards the successful delivery of the new body. We emphasise again that adequate funding of the new organisation will be key to the requirement for independence and will be essential to the success of the new body. Over the course of its existence, the Equality Authority has contributed significantly to the promotion of equality in Ireland. The contribution of the Irish Human Rights Commission in the field of human rights promotion has also been impressive. The authority earnestly hopes that the legacy of both bodies will be maintained through the endeavours of the commission, and that the work of the Equality Authority and the Irish Human Rights Commission will inform and enrich the future development of the commission.

I thank Ms Kerins for her very concise presentation. Like all committee members, I have also received the Equality Authority's full submission. I have a number of questions on the issues raised. With regard to the appointments process, the Equality Authority suggests employment related skills, such as industrial relations and human resource management, may need to be included in the range of skills required of members of the commission. We will take this suggestion on board.

Ms Kerins also welcomed the oversight of appointments by the Dáil and Seanad, which was raised yesterday when there was a difference of view on the role of the Oireachtas in scrutinising the appointments process. The ICCL thought the Oireachtas should not have a stronger role in the appointments process whereas other bodies such as the Irish Human Rights Commission thought it should. What is the view of the Equality Authority on this issue?

The Equality Authority has not made a submission on head 17(5), on which we had a good deal of discussion with the other groups yesterday, with regard to the appointment of the first director of the commission. The ICCL in particular was very critical of it and suggested it should not be included in the Bill. I would be interested to hear the views of the Equality Authority on this.

Ms Angela Kerins

I will answer the second question and Ms Dempsey will answer the first. We do not share the view of the ICCL on the appointment of the director. The director of the Equality Authority was appointed through the open appointments system in the Public Appointments Commission, which is the method promoted here. We do not want to lose the skills built up by individuals. To be fair to the organisations merging, there must be equality and fair play and we must support individuals as the organisation develops. I will hand over to Ms Dempsey as Senator Bacik may wish to hear from her on the other matter.

Ms Renee Dempsey

I thank the Senator for her questions. With regard to the appointments process under head 13, to be clear the point is not to seek any automatic right for a particular representative body. The point is that the identification of skill-sets is considered in whatever process is determined by the selection committee. We are always very conscious that we are guided by the Employment Equality Acts and discrimination in the workplace, and the vindication of rights in the workplace is a fundamental element of the work of the Equality Authority.

We have no difficulty with oversight by the Oireachtas. The board and chief executive welcome opportunities to present to the democratic system what we are funded to do.

I am very happy that I have at all times during my time with the Equality Authority worked properly and appropriately and, very emphatically, independently of any parent Department. Being let loose from the mother ship does not in any way require me to have long-term loyalties. My loyalty is to the board. It is important that we recognise how this is designed, which is that the commission is to be appointed in a separate and independent fashion by an independent and separate group of people. The strategic plan of the human rights and equality commission will be defined by the commission with the support of the chief executive. It is my very clear view the commission will be the brains and the head, while the role of the chief executive in matters such as this will be to do what will be required for the human rights and equality commission's strategic plan, the legislation and various other agreements. The chief executive will do this and support the commission through good corporate governance processes and will enable it to do its work clearly and uninhibited by any scandals, difficulties or backroom issues. The function of the director will be to be the interlocutor with the commission and ensure the delivery of the commission's objectives.

I thank Ms Dempsey for her very full answer. The reference to head 17(5) was not to do with any individual and the witnesses yesterday made this very clear. The real concern was the issue raised by Ms Dempsey, which is independence and the need for the new merged body to be seen to be fully independent of the mother ship, namely, the Department of Justice and Equality, as well as of the Executive and the Government, which is why we are having a debate about the role of the Oireachtas. There is a concern about the perception of independence being affected by the current wording of head 17(5) that the body should not only be independent but be seen to be independent. All of the groups present recognise the great improvement in the selection process of commission members contained in the Bill but recommend other ways in which it can be improved, for example, by being more specific about the range of criteria required. Independence was the key point.

Will the witnesses comment on the selection of the selection committee, which is an issue with which the committee has been grappling? Does the Equality Authority have views on this?

Ms Angela Kerins

In my experience of State bodies it is very important that focus is placed on the skill-set of the commission and a key job for the selection committee will be to define the criteria for the individuals and skill-sets to be brought on board. Many people have all of the necessary skill-sets but it is important they are defined.

My question is on the appointment of the selection committee itself. What Ms Kerins has said is a given, but the question is how the five members of the selection committee will be appointed. Who will appoint them and what criteria will be involved? Does the Equality Authority have a comment or view on this?

Ms Renee Dempsey

I listened very carefully to yesterday's debate and it struck me that no matter where it starts it is a chicken and egg situation. If something fell from the skies and was perfectly formed as a new selection committee one would have no risk of any challenge to its independence. However, someone must start the ball rolling. I am neutral but it seems to be a good model for someone to select a committee which would then-----

Who is the someone?

Ms Renee Dempsey

In this instance it is designed to be the Minister and I believe this is as good as any model. I do not want to impugn for one moment the Minister's credentials in this. Somebody must start the ball rolling, and in this instance under the legislation it will be the Minister who, after all, will be providing the funding for these organisations. As I understand it, the Minister will then step back, and I expect the selection committee to ensure the Minister has firmly stepped back and that the selection committee will demonstrate its independence in its methodology and process, after which I hope we will have a very good and acceptable commission which is independent of everybody.

That is important.

I welcome the witnesses from the Equality Authority. The rationale for the amalgamation of these bodies is widely accepted. My question has to do with the logistical problems that will arise in managing a merger of two well-established bodies. If we were establishing the authority from scratch and had not had two previous bodies it would be relatively straightforward. However, in bringing together two bodies, given the manner in which these mergers and amalgamations take place, does the Equality Authority believe when the new merged authority is being established there will be a period of time during which there will be a jostling for position and authority with regard to the roles and functions that will compromise its effectiveness? The manner in which all mergers of State, semi-State and statutory bodies takes place means nobody is left without a position. Everybody is taken on board. The chairperson, as well as the chief executive, has considerable experience in business management. They must face into this challenge with some trepidation as there will not only be executive challenges but staff management and human resources issues. How does Ms Kerins envisage bedding in this new process without compromising the effectiveness of the new organisation over the initial amalgamation period?

Ms Angela Kerins

Decisive leadership is required. We have had much interaction with UK bodies on the lessons learned through similar mergers there. We would be very keen to show it is important that the new organisation is concentrated on, not the two merging organisations. The whole focus should be on building the resources required around this new organisation. There will always be tensions in any organisation involved in an acquisition or a merger. Decisive leadership at the top is what is required, as well as a focus on the new functions. The new chief executive and, far more importantly, the new commission must focus on this.

Not everyone will get what they want initially. From what I have seen so far, however, the staff of the Equality Authority and the Irish Human Rights Commission are very mission driven. That is what will work for them. Decisive leadership and taking the hard decisions are what is going to matter in the beginning.

I have read the submission and, by and large, it is reasonably well made. I thank the delegation for its presentation. In her opening statement, Ms Kerins commented on the necessity to ensure the new entity is properly funded. I share that view. To ensure independence one also has to operate to a certain degree of financial independence. Joining the two entities together is buying into best international practice and should lead to cost savings. Does the delegation believe the two entities acting as one unit will operate in a more cost effective manner?

Ms Angela Kerins

We have a fair few stripes on our backs when it comes to funding cuts. We have been able to sustain the organisation at a time of severe cuts to the Equality Authority's budgets. I do not agree there should be a saving. Both organisations have received significant cuts not just last year but over several years. We will want to see the best use of the resources we have and value for money. I would hate to see further cuts in the authority's and the commission's budgets because someone thought it would be the primary reason for the merger. We call on all members to ensure adequate resources are given to the organisation to ensure it can reach all of those people who are at far more risk of discrimination in a recession.

I do not necessarily disagree with Ms Kerins's contention but we are in a IMF-EU country programme which must be borne in mind.

Ms Angela Kerins

One must also bear in mind as we go forward in the renewal of this great country of ours that equality, anti-discrimination and good human rights play a significant role in recovery and attracting foreign direct investment. It is not just a societal but an economic issue to invest in this area.

Ms Renee Dempsey

To add to the chairperson's point, it is important to know the Equality Authority and the Irish Human Rights Commission have encountered significant resource cuts, both financial and manpower. Currently, the number of staff in the authority stands at 33, of whom 18 are based in Roscrea. As already pointed out to Deputy Creed, there will be quite a lot of change management going on in the two organisations.

I would be misleading this committee if I were to say that in the first instance there would be immediate or palpable savings. There will be transition costs incurred through, for instance, the likelihood of changing the venue and the address of the organisation. There is the management of the closure of the Roscrea office which may take some time. The setting up of a new organisation, even in small housekeeping details, has certain costs. It would be our ambition to run this process efficiently and cost effectively. However, we must also bear in mind this legislation proposes giving additional functions to the joint organisation including the public service duty and others. It is right and proper for the Oireachtas to expect its public bodies in whatever format to exercise great value for money and find and deliver savings. It is unrealistic to expect, however, start-up costs to show immediate savings. Over time one would expect to see an efficiency but I would hesitate to promise whether this is a saving.

What are the contractual commitments on the property in Roscrea, when were they entered into and when does that lease expire?

Ms Renee Dempsey

If the Deputy will forgive me because I am going to kick this for touch. As it happens the property in Roscrea was part of the portfolio of properties assembled by the Office of Public Works, OPW, to deliver on the decentralisation process. As such the lease and the rental arrangements are held by and paid for by the OPW. Accordingly, the rent is not a cost specifically on the authority. Obviously, we pay our overheads and so on. I am not particularly familiar with the lease as a consequence but my understanding is it is a long lease and the matter of management of that rests with the OPW and the landlord.

How many of the staff are based in Roscrea?

Ms Renee Dempsey

Eighteen of our staff are based there.

The importance of an accessible and appropriate location for the new organisation was referred to in the submission. Has the delegation any views on this? Has a location been decided yet?

Ms Renee Dempsey

Again, I am not going to be disingenuous. There are a few irons in the fire. When negotiating in the current market, I certainly would not want to indicate a preference at this point. There are choices for sure and we are looking at better value than existed previously.

Will the location be Dublin?

Ms Renee Dempsey

Yes, the determination of the working group, as accepted by the Minister, is a Dublin location.

I thank the delegation for attending the committee. I congratulate the Equality Authority for the work it has undertaken in its term and the significant difference it has made to society. I wish it well in the future.

The joint committee went into private session at 10.10 a.m. and adjourned at 10.35 a.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 18 July 2012.
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