Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 14 Jan 2003

Vol. 1 No. 5

Voting Procedures at Justice and Home Affairs Council Meetings.

As most members will be aware, an important event is taking place in Europe, namely, the Convention on Europe. This is being spearheaded by Mr. Valery Giscard d'Estaing. It has a high-powered presidium which includes the former Taoiseach, Deputy John Bruton, and others. Members representing the Government include the Minister of State, Deputy Roche, and Deputy P. Carey. Oireachtas Members of the convention include Deputy J. Bruton andProinsias De Rossa, MEP.

I understand that ten of the working groups of the convention have reported. One remains to report. I believe that is the social working party. Is that correct, Mr. De Rossa?

Proinsias De Rossa, MEP

That is correct.

The convention then will report to the Intergovernmental Conference in June of this year. I understand Deputy Bruton was chairman of the working group on justice and home affairs and his report was published in December. Included in it is a recommendation that some criminal justice matters be decided at EU level by qualified majority voting. The Minister is not of that view and feels it should be done by unanimous decision. I am delighted the committee has this opportunity to consider and debate justice and home affairs matters as they relate to what is happening in the Convention on Europe. This is an important matter and it is appropriate that it be discussed as widely as possible, particularly by this committee.

I am grateful to the Minister and DeputyBruton for coming to put the two sides of this debate and for allowing members to put forward their positions in relation to it and ask questions.

I am also glad the Minister of State, Deputy Roche, Proinsias De Rossa, who is a member of the convention, and Deputy Pat Carey, who is a Government nominee to the convention, are present to answer any questions and add any points they feel are appropriate.

It is intended that the Minister and Deputy Bruton will make opening statements lasting ten or 15 minutes and that we will then open the matter for general discussion, with contributions from the various invited guests and members. At around 6 p.m. the Minister of State, Deputy Roche, will speak for about ten minutes and we will then adjourn.

I welcome the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and his officials and I ask him to address the committee.

I thank the Chairman. I am conscious of the time constraint. I have a script prepared, some of which is informative and expansive and it would, therefore, be a waste of time to deal with some of the matters which are in the script. These can be examined by members at a later stage. I want to get to the meat of the matter if possible.

On 12 December I wrote to the Chairman requesting that the committee should meet to consider an issue of fundamental importance, namely the suggestion contained in the report of Working Group X, chaired by Deputy Bruton, that there should be a radical widening of the application of qualified majority voting, QMV, and co-decision with the European Parliament to very significant areas of measures concerned with the criminal law and the law of criminal procedure which applies in the member states of the Union. The final report of the working group is set out at tab 1 of the folder I have distributed to Members.

It is appropriate to set out a brief overview of the development of European Union involvement in the justice and home affairs areas. I do that over the next two pages of my written text and I do not propose to deal with it now. However, some people may find it useful as a short chronology of how we reached the current position, the steps that have been taken and the stage at which these were taken by the institutions of the European Union in relation to justice and home affairs matters in general and criminal law matters in particular.

It is obvious that the EU competence in criminal law matters has been limited and primarily conducted at an intergovernmental level up to now. I suggest a number of reasons for that approach, namely: the power of the state to investigate, try and punish its citizens is a central aspect of sovereignty; the coercive power of criminal legislation and enforcement can only be safely entrusted to institutions which are constitutionally regulated, democratically accountable and historically and culturally acceptable to citizens as their legitimate organs of government; the relationship between member states and citizens is intimately bound up in criminal law and procedure and the social contract between citizens and member states is central to the power of the state to punish its citizens; the very character of a state is, in many respects, defined by its criminal law and procedure; and the EU consists of member states with widely differing systems of criminal law and criminal procedure based on wholly different histories and constitutional concepts of due process, judicial function, status of the parties, etc.

The current arrangements for dealing with JHA matters have been the subject of integrationist criticism from a variety of sources, mainly the Commission, and, more stridently, some people in the European Parliament, which is seeking a strong legislative role in criminal matters. In addition, some academic lawyers have been critical of the arrangements. The main points they have made are: lack of democratic control - that is a reference to the reduced role of the European Parliament because JHA matters are now dealt with primarily at an intergovernmental level; lack of judicial control - that is a reference to a reduced role of the European Court of Justice; inefficiency in the operation of the complicated procedures - that is a reference to the reduced role of the Commission and the need for unanimity; and the existence of opt-outs leading to different approaches in different member states in virtually all aspects of justice and home affairs matters.

There are two broad strategic options open to the European Union in respect of future development. One is to attempt to provide a treaty basis for a federal type EU criminal law and for a uniform law of criminal procedure for federal type offences. That approach would, broadly speaking, involve the establishment of a common system of offences and procedural laws in respect of those areas of the criminal law in which the European Union would be given competence by treaty, much as the American federal institutions have certain criminal law functions. Ireland has consistently opposed that approach.

The alternative strategy is, broadly speaking, to leave issues of criminal law and the law of criminal procedure as areas of competence for member states, subject only to treaty provisions designed to bring about minimum conditions of inter-operability, mutual recognition of judicial decisions and co-operation in relation to judicial and police activity between member states. Ireland has consistently supported and engaged positively in that approach.

That second co-operative strategic approach to judicial and police co-operation has led to the adoption of many valuable co-operative measures, the establishment of institutions such as Europol and Eurojust and the introduction of framework decisions in relation to, among other things, drug trafficking, extradition, mutual enforcement of fines, mutual enforcement of criminal confiscatory orders and the European arrest warrant.

It is important that we look at what is being proposed and cooked up, so to speak, at European level so that we understand what is in the pipeline. The European Union has been considering clear integrationist projects and plans for a much more elaborate EU role in respect of criminal law and criminal procedure, in line with the first of the two strategies, that is, the federal type strategy, to which I referred.

One such proposal, which has been much discussed, although recently held in abeyance, is the corpus juris proposal. The text of that proposal is set out at tab 2 of the documents I have circulated. In essence, the corpus juris project is one under which a federal EU competence in criminal law would be established, in the first instance at any rate, to deal with crimes affecting the financial interests of the EU itself. Some of my JHA ministerial colleagues have spoken of the need to gradually extend the scope of corpus juris.

The proposal would allow for the creation of federal offences against the financial interests of the European Union, prescribe punishment for such offences, provide for the establishment of a federal system of prosecutors appointed by the EU and establish a system of federal criminal courts consisting of three judges without any jury, thus providing for an entirely new EU system of criminal law analogous, in some ways, with the system of federal criminal law in the United States of America. Of course, in America they have jury trials even for federal offences.

Another project strongly canvassed at Commission level at present is the European public prosecutor proposal. This is a derivative element of the corpus juris project and was proposed in part 2 of the corpus juris document, to which I have just referred. The EPP proposal would allow for a European public prosecutor to investigate and criminally prosecute persons in member states’ national courts for offences against the financial interests of the Union. Ireland has consistently opposed the adoption of these projects. We are by no means alone in that regard and a majority of Justice and Home Affairs Ministers are strongly opposed to either of these projects.

The Group X report records division of opinion on such proposals and does not come down firmly on one side or the other as to whether a legal basis for such an office should be created by treaty among the EU member states in the context of the envisaged constitutional treaty. Nonetheless, it remains the case that the Group X report, if adopted, would clearly create a treaty basis for the adoption of the substance of the corpus juris proposal and-or the EPP proposal based on QMV, qualified majority voting.

At present, a process is in train which will lead to the publication of a Green Paper on the prosecution process in member states. It is clear from this process that the corpus juris project is still a live issue. In these circumstances, we must carefully consider whether the underlying intention or likely effect of the adoption of the Group X report would be to clear the constitutional way for the adoption of the federal type EU criminal competence on the basis of QMV, along the lines of the progressive implementation and extension of the corpus juris project.

There are many suggestions in the Group X report which, I believe, most members of the committee and most Irish people would warmly support. I will cite two examples, though there are many more in the report with which I agree. The first and possibly most fundamental reform is the adoption of a common general legal framework to substitute for the existing three pillar framework of the EU. In that way, it is suggested that all the treaty provisions concerning the areas of freedom, security and justice could be brought together under a single title in the proposed new treaty. In that context, the classic EU legislative instrument of directives would replace existing third pillar instruments such as decisions, framework decisions and conventions. I support that proposal.

A second proposal which deserves strong support is that, in the area of immigration policy and those of asylum, refugees and displaced persons, qualified majority voting and co-decision with the European Parliament would apply. It is abundantly clear that in a Europe of free movement of citizens, a strong competence in these areas should be grounded on a solid and workable treaty base. I agree with the remarks made by Deputy Bruton on the previous occasion. In a Europe of 25 member states, unanimity is too high a bar to set for effective action which requires a fairly uniform response across the entire Union.

The most constitutionally significant proposal in terms of the competence of member states in justice and home affairs matters is the proposal by Working Group X that QMV and co-decision with the European Parliament should be made the order of the day where binding EU directives or regulations harmonising criminal law and criminal procedure are concerned. The Group X report proposes that the Union institutions should, on the basis of QMV, be given competence to prescribe the substance of criminal law in relation to criminal acts and penalties in "certain fields of crime" provided that one of two criteria - that the crime in question is both of a particularly serious nature and has a cross-border dimension or that it is directed against a shared European interest which is the subject of a common policy of the Union - is met.

The report goes on to provide a treaty basis for approximation of elements of criminal procedure in respect of procedures with transnational implications or where such approximation is justified by a requirement for effectiveness in the area of police and judicial co-operation. If a treaty basis were to be provided for the approximation of criminal procedure or of substantive criminal law in respect of the categories of offences mentioned above, it is quite likely that the scope of the competence would be similar to that prescribed for the European arrest warrant under Tab 3. Alternatively, the scope could be that prescribed for Europol under Tab 4. Those lists represent a very large portion of the substantive criminal law of member states relating to murder, rape, drug offences, corruption, extortion, racist crimes, financial fraud, etc.

If an EU competence was created in these areas by the treaty, and if the unanimity rule were abandoned in favour of QMV, then, having regard to Ireland's experience in relation to the European arrest warrant, it would be more probable than not that significant areas of Ireland's constitutional and statutory law relating to criminal law and the law of criminal procedure would become capable of being amended against the wishes of the Irish people and/or the Parliament in a manner which would bind Ireland as a matter of European law and Irish constitutional law. At present, the potential scope of framework decisions and their potential implications for the substantive criminal law and the law of criminal procedure of member states is circumscribed by the right of each member state to exercise a veto under the unanimity rule.

In Ireland's case, before I attend a Justice and Home Affairs Council meeting and agree to a framework decision which requires unanimous support, I must first secure a resolution of each House of the Oireachtas under Article 29.4.6. Bearing in mind the extraordinarily wide scope of some proposals already made for framework decisions in relation to substantive criminal law - we dealt with some of them, drugs law, racist crime etc., on the last occasion - and criminal procedure, any attempt to widen the EU competence in this area would need cast iron guarantees as to the rights of member states to decide on core elements of their criminal and constitutional law if they were to have any chance of political acceptance, particularly in member states where ratification of the forthcoming Intergovernmental Conference treaty provisions would require referendum.

A significant deficiency of the Group X report is its failure to describe any mechanism whereby a QMV procedure in this area would adequately protect the existing rights of member states to preserve the substance of their domestic criminal law and related procedural matters dealing with fundamental rights, due process, etc. While the Group X report is obviously not an exercise in treaty draftsmanship - I did not expect it would be - the crucial question for Ireland is whether there is any plausible potential treaty provision that could preserve our constitutional and statutory system of criminal law and procedure from unwelcome outside interference if it is not a unanimity procedure backed up by approval of both Houses of the Oireachtas. Perhaps some other wording could be inserted in the treaty which would enable us to say "No, that is too far. We do not agree with that, we will not accept that and we insist on jury trial or the current Irish system of bail in respect of offences which come within the two criteria referred to in the report".

It is perhaps understandable, but not acceptable, that most proposals for framework decisions presuppose the existence of the continental system of criminal law rather than that which exists in the EU's common law states. Even in the current context of a requirement for unanimity, it is remarkable how little serious consideration is given at the preliminary drafting stage to the implications of most proposals for the member states, such as Ireland, which have common law systems. There is no reason to suppose that this underlying attitude would do anything other than become more pronounced if the common law states were to lose their veto. They would not constitute a blocking minority in a QMV system. We would not be in a position, even if we joined with Britain, Malta and Cyprus, to say no simply on the basis of numbers in the European Union.

It cannot be over-emphasised that the existing constitutional safeguards in relation to the adoption of framework decisions, namely, that both Houses of the Oireachtas must formally resolve to approve a proposal from the Irish Government to join in a unanimous decision adopting them, would be swept away in their entirety by the introduction of QMV with or without co-decision by the European Parliament. The likelihood that the Irish people would in a referendum abrogate these safeguards is doubtful.

I will now deal with the European Convention on Human Rights. In the area of safeguards, the report refers to the European Convention on Human Rights and the European Charter and implies that the safeguards in those instruments should be sufficient. The major problem for Ireland in that regard is that our existing constitutional protections go much further than the ECHR. Some of the differences in the various legal systems include availability of jury trial. In addition, evidence can be given in written form in most continental systems, something that is not possible, in general, under our system. Continental systems often allow for lengthy detention for investigation and questioning and such procedures would not be possible here without a major change to our Constitution. All these practices are acceptable under the European Convention on Human Rights, but are unconstitutional in Ireland.

The ECHR does not guarantee many of the core features of the criminal process guaranteed by the Constitution. Jury trial is not guaranteed by the ECHR. Lengthy detention for pre-trial investigation and investigating magistrates are compatible with the ECHR but adversarial trial is not guaranteed. Radically different concepts on the admission of evidence, the rights of the accused and the standard of proof are also compatible with the ECHR. The fact that the EU is obliged to comply with the ECHR under Article 6, and with the charter if the treaty gives it formal status, does not mean that there would be any constitutional guarantee of the maintenance of many fundamental features of the criminal process mandated by the Constitution and Irish law.

Having regard to the superiority of EU law over the domestic constitutional and statute law of member states, the conferring of criminal law competence on EU institutions on the basis of QMV would create a legal basis for the EU to substantially abrogate existing Irish constitutional protections in the criminal law area against the wishes of the Irish people. I say that in the context of the corpus juris project which is a live proposal to say that in relation to crimes against the financial interests of the European Union, jury trial is not to be permitted. In addition there should be no appeal to the Irish Supreme Court following a decision of the court established under the corpus juris proposal. I wish to make it clear that procedures we would consider normal would, if the corpus juris proposal were incorporated and if the treaty basis for it were adopted and QMV put in place, be swept away. It is clear that we are dealing here with complex issues which bear directly on Ireland’s constitutional and statutory system of criminal law and procedure and on what I have described as the social contract which is central to the power of any state to apply penalties to its citizens.

Group X has had a difficult task to perform. It has discharged that task with commitment and with the clear objective of moving forward decisively and, in certain respects, quite radically. Much of what it has proposed is positive and to be welcomed. In some areas, however - many of which I have identified in my statement - I believe that what it proposes is a bridge too far. I do not see our citizens being ready at this time to put themselves in the position where some of the fundamental characteristics of our criminal law and procedure are determined not by their own democratically elected Government but, at more distance, by the European Commission.

My reservations are not to be taken as reservations about the need to tackle transnational crime in the most effective way we can as I have no reservations about this. I am totally convinced and supportive of the idea that modern transnational crime can only be tackled by means of effective international co-operation within the European Union and indeed more widely. This will be best achieved by means of effective international co-operation between states rather than through measures which would ultimately seek to diminish the role of individual states in determining the shape and composition of the legal regimes which apply to criminal wrongdoing within their own borders. The former approach is likely to be embraced with enthusiasm and is likely to produce early results. The latter is much more likely to be dogged by debates on issues of principle at the expense of real progress.

It has been suggested by some commentators that the Irish position in relation to these matters is somehow negative and lacking in ambition or courage. Others have suggested that the potential implications of the proposals under consideration are being deliberately exaggerated for effect. While everyone is entitled to his or her views and ambitions for the EU project, it is important, especially in the context of a proposed constitutional treaty, that we should all appreciate just what is and what is not at issue in the course of our deliberations.

It is perfectly respectable and, arguably, far more realistic to acknowledge that the EU is not a federal state with federal democratic and judicial institutions, and with effective checks and balances appropriate to the creation of a treaty basis for an expanding corpus of federal criminal law and federal law of criminal procedure. That is neither a negative nor a minimising view of the EU. I suggest that it is an honest and practical estimate of the current position.

It is equally respectable to argue that the EU is characterised and enriched by political, legal and cultural diversity. Such a viewpoint broadly upholds the existing strategic balance in the EU on JHA matters in which member states retain their national parliaments' competence in the areas of criminal law and procedure while improving constantly the levels of co-operation and inter-operability necessary for achievement in the areas of freedom, justice and security envisaged at the Tampere Council.

Today's proceedings are intended to stimulate and foster reflection and debate on the likely potential implication of the creation of an EU treaty basis for QMV in the area of criminal law and procedure. My view is that today is the beginning of a process rather than the end of it. The intention is to stimulate national awareness of the issues involved. I am grateful to the committee for taking this valuable and, possibly, unprecedented opportunity to bring the European debate closer to home.

I thank the Minister who has put forward his point of view strongly and cogently. I now ask Deputy Bruton to make a presentation on the report of the working group on the convention.

I am delighted to have this opportunity to speak about the work of the Council of Justice and Home Affairs of the European Union, and about the report of the working group on the Convention on the Future of Europe on Justice and Home Affairs, which it was my privilege to chair as a member of the convention.

I am pleased to share a platform with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform who has engaged in a lively debate about my report and other issues emanating from the convention. It is important to stress that the convention has been established to facilitate just such a debate in advance of the finalisation of a new constitutional treaty for the European Union.

The previous treaty negotiations approach, which was one of private deal-making between governments, led to increasing frustration amongst the public in Europe, who felt themselves to be confronted with faits accompli, and felt they had had no opportunity to influence the negotiators through public dialogue of the kind we are now having for the first time in regard to a new treaty at this committee and in other places.

Not only is the Convention on the Future of Europe doing its work in public, but whereas previous negotiations took place only between governments, opposition politicians like myself and Proinsias De Rossa MEP as well as Government backbenchers like Deputy Pat Carey, are playing a full role in the discussions. So are members of the European Parliament, the Commission, members of the Committee of the Regions and members of the Economic and Social Committee. A civic forum has been established to allow non-governmental organisations to have an input. Therefore the debate that is taking place in this committee today is entirely in line with the new spirit of constitution-making in Europe, an open process in which the widest possible range of views will be heard. This is the proper context in which to make decisions on issues of law and on issues touching the liberty and the security of Europe's citizens. I agree with the Minister that these are matters of fundaÍmental importance.

Some may question why the European Union should be getting involved with such matters as criminal law. Should these matters not be left to individual states? It has been recognised, since the Maastricht treaty approved by the Irish people in 1992, that individual countries could not deal with the cross-border crime problem on their own. Maastricht was the first EU treaty to make provision for common EU action. By 1999, it had been recognised that progress in the intervening period had been too slow. The European Council, meeting in Tampere in Finland, with the participation of the Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, unanimously agreed that it would put the creation of an area of freedom, security and justice "at the very top of the political agenda" of the European Council.

The Taoiseach and his colleagues said that the "enjoyment of freedom requires a genuine area of justice where people can approach courts and authorities in any member state as easily as in their own". They said that criminals must find no way of exploiting differences in the judicial systems of member states and that judgments and decisions must be respected and enforced throughout the Union, while safeguarding the basic legal certainty of people and economic operators. The Taoiseach and his colleagues went even further. They agreed that "better compatibility and more convergence between the legal systems of member states must be achieved".

To fight serious crime, they decided that "the joint mobilisation of police and judicial resources is needed to guarantee that there is no hiding place for criminals, or the proceeds of crime, within the Union".

They said that the "principle of mutual recognition should become the cornerstone of judicial cooperation in both civil and criminal matters" in the European Union and that mutual recognition should apply to "pre-trial orders and in particular to those which would enable competent authorities quickly to secure evidence and seize assets which are easily moveable".

This is the mandate that was given in 1999 by the Taoiseach and his colleagues. These are the instructions that heads of Government have given to the European institutions. The purpose of my working group was to give the European Union institutions the mechanisms which would enable them to fulfil properly and fully this very explicit and demanding mandate from the heads of Government. The question we had to consider was whether existing constitutional arrangements, whereby decisions in this area are taken by unanimity, would work in a Union where one had to get the unanimous agreement of twenty-five states. Would an enlargement to the east, to include countries bordering areas where organised crime has been rampant, such as the Polish-Ukraine border for example, allow us to take the risk that the already slow progress on EU crime policy might be dramatically slowed, in a world in which so many opportunities exist to commit crimes across borders which include everything from car theft to cyber crime to trafficking in persons?

I will now attempt to make a comprehensive summary of the response of the working group to this challenge but before doing so, I pay a special tribute to the contribution made to the group by my colleague, Deputy Pat Carey, who has ensured that all relevant Irish concerns have been voiced in the most effective manner possible.

The working group recommends the introduction of qualified majority voting in the areas of asylum, refugees and immigration. It also recommends that the European Union take a shared interest in ensuring that all our external borders, including our sea and coastal borders, are properly patrolled. There will be co-operation, and possibly financial support for countries to ensure that land and sea borders are properly managed and controlled. I had an explicit reference to coastal borders included in the report to ensure that Ireland will get the maximum assistance in regard to our extensive coastal waters. In the area of civil law, we decided that we would leave the existing provisions as they are. They limit European Union action to "civil matters having cross border implications" and only "in so far as they are necessary for the proper functioning of the internal market". We decided, however, to allow for the extension of qualified majority voting on decisions with regard to co-operation between judges concerning parental responsibility for children. Children are often the victims of disputes within families and this is particularly acute when the parents of the child or children live in different European countries.

In regard to police and judicial co-operation in regard to criminal law, we found that the existing arrangements are not working. Much of the work is being done by means of conventions, which do not have any direct effect and which, having taken years to negotiate unanimously, are then often not ratified by many countries. For example, while a dozen conventions have been concluded, only two of them have been ratified. Framework decisions have been taken, but these have been inadequately or incompletely transposed into national law. Europol has not been getting enough information from member states to enable it to work effectively.

As agreed by the Taoiseach and others at Tampere, the fundamental principle on which we are operating, is mutual recognition, not harmonisation. Each country should recognise, accept and implement the decisions of the properly constituted judicial authorities of other countries. Our purpose in making limited provision for approximation of criminal law by qualified majority, is to allow this system of mutual recognition to work in practice. We are only recommending a departure from unanimous decision-making in the Council of Ministers on substantive criminal law when three specific conditions are met: first, when the crime in question is of a particularly serious nature, second, when it has a cross-border dimension and third, when the crime must be listed in the treaty as a crime, and that is something that can only take place unanimously. This is a much narrower and more precise definition of the sort of crime with which we wish to deal than has been contained in previous agreements, such as the Common Arrest Warrant, with which the present Minister was involved when he was Attorney General and which was agreed to by the present coalition Government in December 2001. It listed 31 categories of crime as subject to the warrant, some of which would not meet all the criteria we have set out in our report which it is my honour to present.

The approximation of elements of criminal procedure, as distinct from law, is also necessary if mutual recognition is to work. We recommended the qualified majority voting on the approximation of procedures, in relation to specific "procedures with transnational implications" where this is "needed to ensure the full application of mutual recognition of Judicial decisions or to guarantee the effectiveness of common tools of police and judicial co-operation created by the Union". This is a limited and specific decision; it is not a blank cheque. We are not proposing wide-ranging approximation of criminal procedures. We are only proposing that qualified majority voting take place in respect of areas where there are "transnational implications" and where it is "needed to ensure the full application of mutual recognition".

Again, these areas would be specified in the treaties. I reassure the Minister that this does not, for example, provide for any proposal to abolish juries in criminal trials. There is no need at all to abolish juries in criminal trials for the purposes I have just outlined. Juries exist in some continental European countries as well as in the common law countries. I understand they exist in France and Belgium for murder cases. The same applies to the matter of taking evidence in writing raised by the Minister in his presentation today. Under the Criminal Justice Act 1994 we allow taking of evidence in writing which is not subject to cross-examination for use in other European countries.

We do not allow others to take such evidence in their country for use in our courts. We mutually recognise each others procedures but they do not necessarily have to be the same. I reassure the Minister that, in our recommendations on unanimity, we are confining ourselves to that which is necessary for mutual recognition and there is no necessity either to introduce the admissibility of purely written evidence not subject to cross-examination or to do away with jury trials in order to achieve the objective of mutual recognition. The Minister is a very effective advocate in the Council of Ministers and he has won much praise in this regard. He will find that he will have a very sound ground on which to fight his case on the basis of the terms of the report which I have prepared if it is transposed as I hope it will be into the terms of the Constitution.

We also agreed to update the legal treaty base for Europol, giving it more specific scope of action, for example, "serious crimes affecting two or more member states", and also defining its powers more precisely. We recognise that the activities of Europol will in future have to be subject to democratic accountability to the European Parliament and to this committee, which I welcome. To ensure that there is a better implementation of decisions once they are taken, we propose a system of mutual evaluation and peer review of the performance in this area by individual countries.

We have also taken another very important decision. This is to recommend that the whole area of justice and home affairs co-operation be brought into the mainstream of the European Union Treaty, abolishing the so-called "thirdpillar". This move would enable the European Commission to introduce infringement proceedings against countries which fail to fulfil legal agreements that they have made.

We propose that national parliaments, and specialist committees such as this one, be much more involved than they now are in the creation of an area of freedom, security and justice in Europe. In the report, we stressed that such involvement by committees will only be meaningful if there are substantive debates in national parliaments about the options to be considered at the European Council well in advance - and I emphasise "well in advance" - of the relevant European Council meeting. We have also proposed that there should be regular inter-parliamentary meetings of specialist parliamentary experts in justice and home affairs from all 25 states. This would involve the Chairman and other members of this committee meeting regularly with their counterparts in other countries in order to ensure proper supervision of the work.

We propose that directives be used, rather than regulations. This would mean that the Dáil would be involved in the articulation of the legislation. We propose that this committee and the Dáil be asked to consider, each year, a report on the activities of Europol. A "subsidiarity early warning mechanism" is also proposed. This would ensure that every proposal for new legislation at Union level, whether in the justice area or elsewhere, will be considered by each national parliament to see whether it is in conflict with the principle of subsidiarity and should not be done at European level. If a sufficient number of national parliaments consider that a particular proposal offends against that principle - as might be the case with some of the concerns which the Minister has raised if the Commission were to attempt to make such proposals - the Commission would be obliged either to reconsider or withdraw it under this early warning mechanism.

This is a balanced package which will facilitate the protection of the fundamental rights of accused persons, a matter that could be of importance to an Irish person on holiday or otherwise, who may encounter difficulty with the law in another European country. The powers of approximation of criminal procedures will be used to ensure that defendants will have guaranteed rights to a lawyer, rights to translation of all relevant material and other safeguards to be set out in a Green Paper to be published very soon. As we move towards an enlarged European Union including countries which, perhaps, may not have our well established tradition of independent judicial decision-making - bearing in mind that some of the countries concerned were under communist rule within the past 15 years or less - it is important that we have the power, by qualified majority voting, to ensure that those countries, as EU member states, provide those basic rights for defendants including, possibly, Irish defendants. The qualified majority voting system will operate in two directions. We will be in a position to influence the provision of rights for our citizens in other countries, just as others may, in some respects, be in a position to influence procedures in this country.

Mutual recognition also needs to be extended to the enforcement in other countries of disqualification imposed in one country, such as disqualification of paedophiles from working with children. Should a convicted Irish paedophile be free to go to France without having a disqualification by an Irish court recognised in France? I would say not, but we have not been able to make progress in that regard under the unanimity rule so far.

Another example is disqualification of drunk drivers from driving. Should a person who has been put off the road by the Irish courts be in a position to drive without restriction in Britain? Again, I submit he or she should not, but we are unable to do anything about that at present due to the unanimity rule. In the case of fraudulent company directors, should somebody who has defrauded people in this country be allowed to set up as a company director in another European country, availing of all the freedoms of the European market although subject to a bar under Irish law? I submit that disqualification of a person as a company director by the Irish courts should be enforceable in all European countries. That is not currently the case but it will be so under qualified majority voting.

Mutual recognition needs to be extended to the collection of fines. Clearly, a person should not be in a position to avoid payment of a fine by simply moving to another European country. Mutual recognition - not uniformity - and collection of evidence would also be assisted by the introduction of qualified majority voting. That system will also help us to make amendments to correct minor errors in previous EU decisions. Mistakes have been and will be made in legislation, including legislation adopted by unanimity. Must we have unanimity even to correct minor errors? If all such revision had to be done by unanimity of 25 states, much faulty legislation might be left uncorrected.

I will give some examples of legislation that is urgently needed at European level but has been held up or diluted by the present unanimity rule. The framework decision on drugs trafficking has been blocked, as has the one on the sexual exploitation of children. Both are designed to ensure there are no safe havens in the EU from which such crimes could most conveniently be organised. The unanimity rule has diluted the decision on fraud through non-cash payments, because one state was able to insist on exempting fraud committed by payment orders, which make up 60% of all non-cash frauds in Europe. There are attempts to dilute the child pornography decision by excluding the possession of pornographic photographs of children where these are for "personal use and not for dissemination". One or two countries want this exemption, for whatever reason, and their insistence is obstructing the general proposal.

In relation to a concern which the Minister raised, I hope I can reassure him in the context of my report. I refer to the proposal for appointment of a European public prosecutor and the corpus juris proposal which is, as it were, the progenitor of that proposal. I draw the attention of the Minister and the committee to the third paragraph on page 20 of my working group report, which makes it quite clear that this cannot be introduced by qualified majority voting. It states:

A significant number of members of the working group favoured exploring the idea, on a medium to long-term basis, of strengthening the powers of Eurojus to enable it to bring cases before national courts concerning offences against the Union's financial interests or other serious crime. The treaty basis concerning Eurojus should, in this case, permit the creation of a European public prosecutor's office by act of the Council, adopted by unanimity, with the assent of the European Parliament.

On that basis, our proposal would allow the creation of a European public prosecutor's office, but only by unanimity. Accordingly, if the Minister is still of his present view when and if that proposal is ever tabled, he will be in a position to veto it.

I apologise for speaking at such length, having regard to the limitations on time. I thank the committee for the opportunity to present this report and I would be glad to return to the committee at any appropriate time to further this discussion.

I thank Deputy Bruton for his valuable and insightful contribution. I ask members of the committee to confine themselves to pertinent and incisive questions, rather than elaborating on their views in relation to this matter, in view of the tight constraints on time. We will have an opportunity to go into the matter more fully on another occasion. I will pose a few brief questions to start with. Do the people of Ireland wish to have the common law upheld and defended in Ireland or are they prepared to converge with the non common law system of other countries? With regard to the references - in paragraphs (aa) and (bb) on page 10 of the report - to criminal matters of a particularly serious nature, of cross-border dimension or of shared European interest, are the proposals in the report not directly related to those matters? Deputy Bruton referred to the approximation of criminal procedures to ensure that defendants are guaranteed the right to alawyer. Is that not going a step beyond the items in (aa) and (bb)?

That concerns substantive law.

Yes, and it is the procedure on a qualified majority voting basis or on a unanimity basis. Those are my two questions. I will take two more people with specific questions. I call Deputy Power.

I thank the Minister and Deputy Bruton for attending the committee. Both speakers will appreciate that the members of the committee are coming cold to a debate which is raging at the convention and its working groups. They will have to give the committee members a certain degree of latitude with regard to it.

Despite what the chairman has said, it is important to give a preliminary view of where the members are coming from. My understanding is - I am open to correction on this - that the idea of the convention and the proposed treaty was to produce a codifying treaty - an amalgamation and simplification of the other treaties - rather than going for a follow-on treaty from the Maastricht, Amsterdam and Nice treaties. Is this yet another treaty or a codification of the existing treaties?

To go further and to import new bodies of law, in this case qualified majority voting with regard to criminal matters, is to go into an entirely different area than what I and the people of Ireland had envisaged. We have just passed the second Nice treaty. The people were willing to accept that package in the context in which it was explained and debated, but a definite line has been drawn by the people. They do not wish to go any further along a federal route. To go along the route discussed here is to go along a federal route. The proposition by Deputy Bruton is very much a radical departure, for the reasons set out by the Minister.

I agree with the Minister with regard to his contribution. There are huge political, constitutional and practical difficulties involved, which were detailed by the Minister. There is no overly compelling reason we need to go down this road and there are a number of reasons against it. Ireland has a long and honourable tradition of a sophisticated and highly developed criminal law system, which has served us well since the foundation of the State. To import other models and systems of civil law, in the European sense, into our system, would have a negative effect in the long run. It would involve a dilution of our constitutional protections whereas they are already guaranteed in the European Convention. It would involve an alteration of the way we have run our criminal law over time.

One of the fundamental elements of a sound and sensible criminal law system is its acceptability and proximity to the people, who should know that law is made close to them and with regard to their mores and beliefs. To make criminal law in Europe, where birdwatching in Greece has become a serious criminal offence, is a mistake. We should not import such things into our law.

I will finish with a simple question, bearing in mind what the Chairman has said. Before the committee could consider either side of the argument and come to a definite conclusion, we need to know - and Deputy Bruton's committee should spell out - what the proposals are, although I am not competent to say what type of law we may or may not be importing because of these proposals. At that stage, I would be prepared to give Deputy Bruton's proposals a second airing. However, this is a step too far along the road for the Irish people.

I thank the Minister and Deputy Bruton for their presentations and also welcome Mr. Proinsias De Rossa MEP. The Minister and Deputy Bruton have differences regarding their interpretation of the three criteria listed on page six of Deputy Bruton's paper. Can DeputyBruton tell me how it will be guaranteed that crimes coverage would not extend to the list given by the Minister, and how it will be guaranteed that trial by jury is not compromised?

There are certain features of the common law system which are different from the Roman law or civil law systems. They have much in common, such as the presumption of innocence, the independence of the judiciary and matters of that nature. We have all been living together under the common and civil law systems under the aegis of the European Convention on Human Rights for the past 50 years. We have grown together, and the creation of an antithesis between a common law and a civil law system is a somewhat artificial device.

With regard to procedure, the examples I gave - of people having translation if being tried in another country or having the right to a lawyer - are ones that concern the necessity of maintaining free movement of persons within the European Union. We would not want our citizens to go to another European Union country where they would not enjoy such protections in the event that they come into conflict with the law of that country. It is entirely consistent with the approach we are taking in our report to allow qualified majority voting in that area so that, in a Union of 25 states, such protections can be extended. That is a valid illustration of the use that might be made of such measures.

With regard to Deputy Power's contribution, we in the convention act on the instructions given to us by the Taoiseach and others from the European Council at Laaken. They did not confine our mandate to a codifying treaty or tell us to tidy up the three treaties, roll them together in one treaty and make it neat and easy to read. They posed, to my recollection, about 53 different questions to us, including where it would be appropriate to extend qualified majority voting. As I outlined in the early part of my speech, we are acting in accordance with decisions taken even earlier by the Taoiseach at Tampere where he set out that the principle of mutual recognition should be a cornerstone of judicial co-operation in civil and criminal matters, and that there should be no hiding place anywhere in Europe for any categories of criminal.

Is mutual recognition the mutual creation of new law? That is what I would like to get at.

If there is to be mutual recognition, there has to be some recognisable similarities. For example, we would not necessarily mutually recognise judicial decisions from the People's Republic of North Korea because we do not consider that there is enough in common between our legal system and theirs. They would claim they have a legal system and they would probably claim they have justice. While their system contains the concept of justice, we would not recognise the decisions of their courts. If we are to mutually recognise the court decisions of the 24 European countries, there must be some means of ensuring that those courts reach their decisions by methods that are broadly acceptable to us even if they are not the same as ours. This is the reason mutual recognition implies a certain amount of approximation, not harmonisation.

Deputy Power also asked for illustrations of how these powers would be used. I have given one with regard to procedures and protection of rights. Others are the disqualification of paedophiles, drunk drivers and company directors and the provisions to allow no hiding place for the generation of child pornography. It is possible to disseminate child pornography across the Internet and across borders. We cannot prevent Dutch people logging on to Dutch websites, we cannot stop people bringing goods to and from the Netherlands. If we are to ensure that child pornography, trafficking in persons and fraud over the Internet are dealt with, we must——

It is an arguable point as to whether that is the case.

Whether which is the case?

We have appropriate legislation in that regard.

We do within our own jurisdiction, but one must deal with any abuse at the point of production and at the point of consumption. We have crimes that originate in one jurisdiction, are carried forward in another and reach their final destination in yet a third country. It is not enough to be able to deal with those crimes in that third country because the detection methods may not be available. It may be necessary to be able to act in all three countries and to act in a harmonised way, which is why we need to do this.

Senator Tuffy asks how we will be guaranteed that the crimes brought forward by qualified majority voting will be provided for according to the three criteria I mentioned. They will have to be approved by a qualified majority, which is more than a simple majority, in the Council and they will have to be approved in the European Parliament. I am not being facetious, but one of the best guarantees we have of ensuring that inappropriate proposals do not come through that process is sitting at this table in the person of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I mean that in no flattering fashion. I have no doubt that he will apply his forensic skills to ensure that nothing inappropriate goes through. If such things are suggested he will be able to command the necessary qualifying minority to stop them.

On a point of order, I intend for the Minister to respond to the questions. Deputy Pat Carey, who has been part of the working group, will then respond and give some input. At that point I will come back to members and ask them to put questions, particularly with regard to the generality of the Convention. Proinsias De Rossa and the Minister of State, Deputy Roche will make the final contributions.

We are rushing proceedings. I understand the problem of chairing the meeting in terms of time, but a proper debate should be allowed. The whole thing is being railroaded, particularly when people who represent the 37% who voted "No" in the referendum on the Nice treaty are not getting a proper opportunity to discuss matters. I am very concerned about that.

Unfortunately, time does not allow.

Will there be a follow up to this meeting?

As soon as Deputy Pat Carey has finished, I will come to Deputy McGrath first.

Listening to DeputyBruton, I see that what characterises his argument, passionate though it may be, is that he is arguing from the particular to the general at all stages. He takes specific instances, some of which are plainly wrong, and says that they prove the need for the creation of a broad general competence. What worries me is that any effect that I have at Justice and Home Affairs Council meetings derives directly from the fact that I have a veto, not from powers of advocacy, personal magnetism or whatever else he wishes to attribute to me.

Or charm. I assure the committee that Ireland's interests are protected at COREPER meetings prior to the meetings of the Justice and Home Affairs Council and at the meetings of the Council itself. It is known that if I have an issue which is not addressed, I will simply say that the matter is at an end. The other Ministers can then come back to me when they are willing to be reasonable. That is the way the system works. To say that I could conjure up a blocking minority on some issue is very far from the reality. We must remember that we are talking about creating a constitutional text for Europe which must, in its essence, provide the internal checks and balances which are adequate to the purpose. There is no point saying it is terrible that some member states think private possession of pornographic photographs is permissible and that the only answer to that is for Europe to be allowed to decide vast swathes of criminal law. One thing does not follow from the other and I could point to many features of the existing criminal law systems of other counties which are appalling. If things were to come to a qualified majority shoot-out, I would be on the losing side and what I consider to be unsatisfactory aspects of other members' systems would win out.

Deputy Bruton says that two things should be given to the Council and the Parliament on a co-decision basis. One is to determine a certain category of offences to be provided by the treaty, within which, on the basis of qualified majority voting, the Council would have the right to determine the minimum constituent elements of the crime. I will give an example with which I do not have much sympathy, but which is less emotive than the matter of child pornography to which Deputy Bruton refers. The Dutch wish to continue to maintain the limited availability of marijuana in their coffee houses. The rest of us will not agree that we wish that to be part of a common framework decision and as long as the Dutch stick to their guns on that, no framework decision will be arrived at. The corollary is that we could agree a framework decision on the basis of unanimity which permitted the Dutch some form of opt-out.

If we brought in qualified majority voting, they would be told they must have a criminal law which bans marijuana. Whatever your views about that, and I confess to have mixed views on the subject, the one thing I am sure of is that the principle of subsidiarity does not exist in this proposition. If we arrange for a single rule across Europe as to what does and does not amount to trafficking in drugs which means no more marijuana in Dutch coffee houses, that is the kind of competence we will be according to the institutions of the European Union. In that case Holland could sing if they thought they were going to get a blocking minority, because they are on their own on that issue for various reasons.

There are many other instances I could raise. Deputy Bruton talked about drunk drivers and said that it was ridiculous that one could drive in Ireland while disqualified in another country. We have adopted a convention and made it law that one can be disqualified here too. It does not require conferring on European institutions this new competence to decide matters by qualified majority voting in order for us to have such a system.

Senator Tuffy's query is the important one. When putting a constitution in place, it is cautious and sensible to ask how it will turn out in practice. What I find missing from Deputy Bruton's analysis is the practice at the Justice and Home Affairs Council meetings. What is the substance of proposals that come forward from the Commission? They do not take our views into account. The European arrest warrant was produced with no consultation of any kind. It was produced from a bottom drawer in Brussels and we were not informally consulted. One could argue that the European Parliament should be a defence against such practices, but it went along with the European arrest warrant.

I am suggesting that we are being asked to confer new competencies on the European Union institutions. The court that will decide what those competencies mean will be the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg, not our Supreme Court. The decision on whether a measure or directive falls within or without the criteria being advanced by Deputy John Bruton - in this respect, my paper is more correct in its summation of the criteria of the Group X report - will be taken by the European Court of Justice, not the Irish people.

Deputy John Bruton held out to us that national parliaments will be consulted. What happens if they disagree or, for instance, 166 Deputies in the Dáil say "No" to a proposal? In constitutional terms it would not matter. The qualified majority voting decision would proceed, Dáil Éireann's view would be noted somewhere and that would be the end of the matter. Let us consider what this would entail. Circumstances would arise in which Ireland is represented at Justice and Home Affairs Council meetings with a veto. This cannot be exercised by me in accordance with how I feel in my Brussels hotel when I get up, as I must first seek and get the permission of both Houses of the Oireachtas to adopt a unanimous decision. If qualified majority voting is introduced, however, it will be possible to override my views and, more importantly, those of both Houses of the Oireachtas. This is the point.

It is beguilingly simple to adopt the position taken by Deputy John Bruton, namely, that there are major problems in transnational crime and the only solution is the one he proposes. I have looked at a number of areas in which framework decisions have come into effect. The committee should note that a significant number of texts have been approved to date and that the procedure is not as cumbersome as has been made out. The unanimity rule is usually applied on major points of principle which member states have with matters, not with piffling matters such as where commas should be.

There is no reason to believe that the right of the European Union to make uniform or approximating measures in respect of most of the offences on the two lists I produced would reduce the opportunity for murder. The list of offences under the European arrest warrant is much broader than what the Deputy has in mind and I challenge him to go through it now and tick off the offences which will definitely not be included. Are murder, rape, fraud and corruption in or out?

They do not have a cross-border——

Murder and rape can easily have a cross-border dimension. They are matters for which the European arrest warrant already applies.

The offences in question must be listed in the treaty. There is a triple lock in that one must list the offence on the basis of a unanimous decision.

There is a second category of offences referred to as offences against matters on which the Union has a policy. What does this mean? Will the Deputy categorise them? Will there be a list of issues on which we have a policy?

The three criteria are that the offences must be serious, have a cross-border dimension and be on the list.

As this is a constitutional text, one can assume that decisions will be made as to whether certain matters come within the criteria. In that context it will not be our view of whether an offence falls within the criteria set out in the Deputy's paper that counts, but that of the Commission and the European Court of Justice. It depends very much on our capacity to say "No". While I agree with Deputy Bruton's assertion that there is greater room for co-operation in individual instances, already huge strides have been made in terms of co-operation, with some 60% of Council business now taken up with justice and home affairs matters. Ireland's leverage and the leverage of Members, through me, to affect the issue is backed up only by the fact that, in the last analysis, there is a unanimity requirement. If I were to lose it, I would have to scrape to get concessions on any document.

I have little to add to the debate as the issues have been well ventilated already. My role in the convention was to act as an alternate member to Deputy John Bruton and I also represented the Dáil in the working group on freedom, security and justice. The way it operated was that a number of presentations were made by various expert groups from policing, administration, the Commission offices and other areas. As Deputy Bruton stated, we worked off the annotated mandate and I compliment him for the way in which he chaired the working group.

At times the convention was a very fraught exercise as alliances of various sorts were formed and then destroyed. We, too, managed to build alliances, for example, with the United Kingdom and some of the applicant countries. The Minister has acknowledged that many of the findings and recommendations in the report are positive and would be beneficial to the Irish position and I thank his officials for their support. They will be able to assure him that I put forward the Irish position in a very robust manner. We did not win majority support for all our views, but we, the United Kingdom and several other countries ensured that, in some cases, dissenting members were mentioned in the report.

We achieved almost unanimous agreement in the area of asylum, visa and refugee policy, on border controls and police co-operation and several other areas. At the end of the process, we effectively countered an attempt to propose the appointment a European public prosecutor. This issue may well re-emerge later in the process.

I sympathise with members of the committee because I was bamboozled at times by the weight of the debate. We may need to discuss further this complex report in the future as it will make a significant contribution to the debate at the convention and the framing of a future constitutional treaty. I will do my best to answer questions on any area of the report.

Thank you. It was interesting to receive some background information on the various meetings.

My previous remarks should not be construed as a personal attack on the Chairman. However, I feel we are not giving sufficient time to this very broad and important debate. Time is running out and it is vital we return to this matter for a more detailed discussion. While I welcome the efforts that have been taken to debate the future of Europe, I ask the Minister and our representatives to outline how the 37% of the people who voted against the Nice treaty were represented at the proceedings. There is a view abroad that the serious and legitimate concerns of citizens about the direction Europe is taking are not being listened to. Despite all of the resources thrown at them, some 37% of people did express concern. We are not a bunch of headbangers. Some of us realised that there were elements on the "No" side that were very disrespectful and we did not like to be aligned with them but we have genuine concerns about Europe. Many Irish people wish that the 37% be treated with more respect and that those in power would listen to their views and concerns.

I have concerns about some of the policies of certain other European countries in regard to how they deal with asylum seekers, refugees and displaced persons. Do the convention delegates support the hard-line approach to disadvantaged and poor people coming from non-EU countries? I strongly disagree with the Minister's recent remark to the effect that some people seem to think the immigration policy should be based on children being good at school. That is a distortion of the debate which related to a family from Kosovo consisting of a widow with two children who wanted to live here. It had nothing to do with being good at school. If a child had a reading difficulty or disability, I would support him or her as well.

This hard-line image is being presented across Europe. Do the delegates agree with the tough stand taken by our Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Government? I agree with the respectful uniform response across Europe as referred to on page 8 of the report. We must become passionate in regard to that. On page 11 there is reference to some systems allowing for lengthy detention for investigation and questions. It is pointed out that we need a change in the Constitution but what are the implications of this? This is an important question.

I agree with the Minister that we have gone a bridge too far. Our criminal law has to be determined by our elected representatives, particularly by the 166 Deputies. I do not wish to see a situation where Irish legislators are noted in a report. International co-operation is the way forward in regard to policing. Justice in Europe, as in Ireland and elsewhere, must be based on respect for human rights. Sadly, some EU countries have suspect records in this area and I have major concerns in this regard. Organised crime is rising and has reached a crisis situation but the bottom line is effective policing in the host country. It needs to be tackled at source by addressing poverty, drugs and disadvantage. I welcome the reference in Deputy Bruton's report to the guaranteed rights to a lawyer, translation and safeguards. This is very important and should always be part of basic rights.

I urge that the views of the 37% of the people that have major concerns about the direction of Europe be taken into account. Did the delegates support the hard-line approach adopted by some EU countries in regard to asylum seekers and refugees?

Proinsias De Rossa, MEP

The Chairman is not the only one who has a problem deciding if I am a Deputy or something else. Even in the European Parliament, it has not been decided on and we are referred to as members.

The convention is a process of discussion and debate. Nothing has been decided. In fact, one could say, as has been said in the past in regard to Northern Ireland, that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. We must bear in mind that we have had ten or 11 working groups and the one chaired by Deputy John Bruton is one of those which has concluded. I have been a member of three of them; one on the role of defence, one on the role of national parliaments and one on social policy which is currently sitting and will conclude on 27 February.

There is a very lively debate. I am pleased that the Minister has entered into the spirit of things and has come out with his fists flying on the issue of justice and home affairs. We need public engagement in the debate and the only way to get it is as a result of combative political debate on the issues raised by Deputy John Bruton and the Minister. I question the idea that we must constantly defend our corner. What we must do is engage with the debate in the convention and, indeed, make a contribution to it and not simply be presented as people who are fearful all the time. We have 30 years' experience of the EU and have a very positive contribution to make to its further development.

The Minister has presented a misleading view of the options open to us. He presents it as a case of integration or co-operation, but of course there is a whole range of options in between. Members of the European Union are no more opposed to integration than we are opposed to co-operation but there is also co-ordination, harmonisation and approximation. The EU has found all kinds of ways to inch forward in the interests of the general population and nations of Europe. It is a mistake to pose the issue as integrationists versus co-operationists. If one is in favour of the euro, then one is in favour of integration. If one is in favour of employment guidelines, then one is in favour of co-ordination. If one is in favour of a common foreign and security policy, one is in favour of co-operation. There are various mechanisms being used to advance the Union and there will be continuing debate as to how we move from one phase of evolution to the next. It is all based on the notion of sharing sovereignty. We could achieve nothing in the European Union without sharing the ability to make decisions and that inevitably means accepting things in some cases that we do not like.

I differ strongly with the Minister on the question of the veto versus QMV. If we take the Minister's position to its logical conclusion we would concede nothing on QMV. We have accepted QMV on a range of issues and, indeed, the Minister has admitted that on some issues raised in this report, QMV would be acceptable even though they are important areas such as asylum. This leads me to the point raised by Deputy Finian McGrath. It is difficult to marry the Minister's declared willingness to go down the QMV road in regard to establishing common asylum procedures and the subsequent Government decision in November 2002. He succeeded in watering down the common procedures and securing the notion of fundamental rights to asylum seekers being guaranteed in all member states but then opted out completely from the directive under the Amsterdam opt-out.

I have a copy of the Commission's statement where it directly criticised member states such as Ireland who helped in watering down the directive and then opted out from it completely. I do not understand how, on the one hand, the Minister can present a position in principle in regard to common provisions for asylum seekers and then seek to undermine them by opting out when there is the opportunity to create those conditions. The veto is a battering ram that enables member states to sit on their hands and do nothing and prevent any move on any issue they simply do not want to move on. QMV provides for an opportunity to get movement on an issue. There was not a single instance since QMV was introduced when the interests or rights of any member state were ridden roughshod over by any Council. Although QMV exists and decisions are made in its name, an attempt is always made to seek unanimity in Council. That means achieving compromises. There was not a single instance in which Ireland or any other member state was told to get lost and that its views were not being taken into account.

The Minister made much play about corpus juris, a document relating to which he has circulated. The corpus juris document deals specifically with fraud against European Union funds. It has to do with anybody, whether farmers, companies or officials of the European Union, who is suspected of defrauding the budget of the European Union. It has been blocked for a range of reasons for some time. It is not law and if it ever becomes part of the EU’s jurisprudence, it will be subject to all kinds of compromises and opt-outs. In its current form, it absolutely provides for cases to be taken in the relevant member state under the law of that state. It provides for an appeal under the law of the relevant member state. It does not provide explicitly for trial by jury, but this could be provided for if necessary if the corpus juris document is ever implemented. One assumes that all criminal cases in Ireland go before a jury, but they do not and there are reasons for this.

Deputy Peter Power asked if this was an effort at codifying existing treaties. The mandate for the convention is the Laeken declaration, which set out a series of questions to which the convention has been asked to respond. There is a long list, which I will not allude to here, but it outlines clearly areas at which the convention should look, such as whether we should improve our decision-making procedures to guarantee the rights of the citizen, which are fundamental.

I thank Proinsias De Rossa. I do not know if the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform would be prepared to postpone his response to some of the issues until another day.

I did not opt out of any directive concerning asylum seeking. Mr. De Rossa is misinformed. Due to the timing of the election, it was impossible for me to obtain the permission of both Houses of the Oireachtas to opt in. Therefore, I was left in the position of having no mandate from the two Houses to opt into the process under Article 29 of the Constitution and I had to allow the proceedings to continue in the hope that I would be able to join in at a later stage. My participation in the discussions had to be on the basis that I could not bind Ireland, and other member states were not willing to accept the proposition that one can simply go along and exercise a veto not having committed oneself to the process in the first place. I did not opt out; it was because I did not have the collective authority of the Houses.

Proinsias De Rossa, MEP

Does the Minister intend to opt in?

Of course, that is why I participated in the discussions. However, I was in an embarrassing position on that particular occasion because I did not have a licence to fly.

I am delighted that the Minister of State, Deputy Roche, has stayed with us for the past hour and a half. As the Government nominee to the convention, it will be interesting to hear the Government's position in respect of the Convention on the Future of Europe, how things are going, and what we need to do to continue the interest therein to ensure that it works out well for Ireland.

This discussion is exactly what we need with regard to the Convention on the Future of Europe. I hope that the national media will cover it because there has never been anything so ignored in the history of this State. We are continuously reading characterisations of our position in Europe, particularly our position in respect of the convention. However, our position is a very positive one. The convention should not be seen as negative but as positive in the sense that it is affording, in a unique way, the opportunity to produce a new treaty that will simplify what preceded it; bring together the existing treaties, improve them and make them more easy to communicate to the citizens of Europe; and win the support of the citizens of Europe, not just the 63% but the 37% also. That is critically important.

In Ireland, we speak from a position of some moral authority in the Convention on the Future of Europe. We can say that we know what our people feel. We may not know what each individual voter feels, but we certainly have more experience in going to the public and seeking its views than any other member state. I do not believe that holding a referendum is a chore; it is not just a privilege but should be a requirement of other member states, particularly in respect of a treaty like this. Deputy Finian McGrath can be assured that lessons have been learned.

We should not see the convention as a threat. We should not enter and have not entered the convention with a series of red lines. The Minister is present and can speak about his area with more authority than I can. There has been a bizarre caricaturisation of the Irish position suggesting that we have entered the convention with a series of red lines. We have entered it with no predispositions on issues and with an open mind. We are prepared to accept any argument that is persuasive, but we are also prepared to defend our position on those issues we regard as important. That is not just a reasonable approach, but the only one that could be adopted in a State that values concepts such as democracy. There will be red line and difficult and challenging issues. It was not just a question, as has been said, of doing an editorial job.

I pay tribute, as I have done in the convention, to the work done by Deputy John Bruton through his chairmanship. I also pay tribute to Deputy Carey who, as an alternate, obviously receives less attention than other members. He and Deputy Gormley served the Oireachtas extremely well and they have been served very poorly in that there has been virtually no attention paid to their very valuable input. People should take the time to check the occasional fact - I have made this comment particularly in respect of press commentary - rather than speak to each other in Doheny and Nesbitt's or wherever they conduct their high brow conversations. Deputy Gormley and others at the forum today had some harsh words to say to an academic, not just to media people, to the effect that it might be valuable to inform opinion with fact as opposed to gossip.

The people who have served Ireland on the convention have not been properly resourced. I have debated and discussed the cases of Proinsias De Rossa and Deputy John Bruton and will continue to do so for them as well as the alternates who are not well supported.

Our approach on a number of issues in the convention has been conservative in the sense that we want to preserve what is good within Europe and we have been ambitious in the sense that we want to achieve improvements in Europe. That is not necessarily a bad way to proceed. It is perverse in the extreme to suggest that we have been marginalised in the convention and have not been "engaged" with it. Equally, it is perverse to base the entirety of public comment on Ireland's views on the convention on who did or did not do lunch with the Dutch on a particular occasion.

I welcome the report of Working Group X. It is one of the most challenging groups of the 11 to which Proinsias De Rossa referred. All but one of these - the group on which I serve - have completed their work. The approach the State adopts will have to be balanced by two realities. On one hand, there is an objective need to have more effective European action across a range of areas considered in this report. If one went on to any street in any city in Europe and asked ordinary citizens what concerns them, they will mention issues of criminality and so on but those same citizens will not always agree with the same solutions and that is where the difficulty that faces this working group arises. At the same time as accepting there is a need for a more effective action across the range of areas considered, we must also bear in mind there are many sensitive issues involved that go to the heart of the relationship between the citizen and the nation state. By saying that, I do not suggest the working group or its chairman ignored that fact - rather they operated with that in their minds too.

Another issue in respect of which it is fundamentally difficult to square the circle is the fact that there are diverse and deeply-rooted national traditions. We need to be ambitious, but we also need to ensure that when we move forward we respect, not just those national traditions, but also the much discussed principle of subsidiarity. National traditions and subsidiarity are two ends of the same stick.

To return to Deputy McGrath's point, it is of fundamental importance that the convention be in a position to bring the people with it. I may be cautious on the convention because of the referendum, but I am certainly not conservative. I reminded other members on the convention of the reality that they ignore the citizenry at their peril. The Minister pointed out that the issues in the report should be considered separately on their merits. That is a fundamentally important point because, with the best will in the world, we will not be able to resolve all these issues at once within the convention.

I welcome unreservedly the recommendations on an integrated approach to visas, migration, residency, asylum-seeking and refugee issues. The Government's position should not be portrayed as negative on this report because we see the values and merits of key issues in it, but we also see concerns. There should be no difficulty with qualified majority voting and co-decision in what is now the first pillar. I think I represent the Minister's views on this.

The proposal to replace decisions and framework decisions with directives or their replacement, as carried into this working group, is welcome because it makes more coherent the legal instruments to which the EU will operate. However, it must be made clear that such directives cannot have direct effect in the third pillar area on issues of such sensitivity. We must pay particular attention to the principle of subsidiarity and acknowledge the differences that exist within the legal systems. We have a long way to go before they can be harmonised.

The EU-wide approach to police and judicial co-operation can only be achieved if unanimity is maintained. The Minister referred to the case of the Dutch, which is interesting because I said to the convention that I wondered whether there would be widespread support for any member state for a proposition where its criminal law could be amended on foot of a directive to which the state itself objected but which had been adopted through QMV. I do not make that point to suggest that Working Group X ignored it, but it is a fundamental reality which goes to how the citizens of the member states will react.

The assumption that a move to QMV is some areas where unanimity applies is desirable because it will permit faster progress in those areas is a seductive one but it comes with many question marks attached to it. I welcome the recommendations in the report about peer review and mutual evaluation, which were not mentioned here, and I have no difficulty with the proposal that the Commission should act as a treaty guardian in this regard and be competent to bring infringement proceedings where member states fail to honour their obligations. The Treaty of Rome recognises that even in the long-term there would be areas where harmonisation, by its nature, would be difficult and this is one of the most fundamental of those areas. It suggests that one should achieve an approximation over time, which is the point the Minister was making, if I am correct.

From the perspective of subsidiarity, moving to QMV and co-decision could and probably would effectively weaken the role of national parliaments and the Minister has illustrated his concerns in that regard. I do not think they arise from being euro-sceptic or anti-Europe or excessively conservative, but rather from the realities we face as a democratic state because we will have to ask our citizens to endorse what emerges. I am concerned, on foot of this debate, that we have focused on the issues where there are differences because that will be the nature of any political debate.

I want to conclude on an upbeat note. An incredible amount of work was invested in this report. I would have put money on Working Group X not reaching any degree of consensus and I pay tribute to Deputy Bruton in ensuring this did not happen. Working Group Vl made somewhat of a dog's dinner, if I can be excused for saying so, of economic governance, because of the way issues were handled. I intend no insult to the chairman of that group by saying this.

There are fundamental issues which go to the heart of what we are as a State and these are bound to attract the kind of debate we have had. I guarantee that, whether or not it is covered outside this House, there will be no legislature in the existing 15 member states - or the 25 that will be in place after enlargement - which will have as good and incisive a discussion on a fundamental issue of the convention as we have had today. I compliment the Chairman and the Minister on taking the initiative and Deputy Bruton on his robust response. The Minister said that charm alone will not win the day, which is correct, although I do not suggest I have anything like his level of charm. However, in the convention it is critical——

The Deputy is the most charming of the three of us.

In our operations with Government Departments, we must approach the convention with a positive attitude rather than one of assuming that we, as a small State, will be done down. If we can support our positions with strong intellectual arguments, we will gain respect and probably win the day. We will not win every argument we enter into and it would be foolhardy and arrogant to suggest that we should.

This committee and Dáil Éireann can rest assured that we are well served as a nation at the convention. We are not marginalised and the suggestion that we are in awe of others and unable to present our position is mendacious and inaccurate. If the committee reviews this issue, I would like to attend the meeting. I hope the national broadcaster will pick up on this debate because this is a key issue and we serve the people by letting them know our concerns as well as listening to theirs.

I thank the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Roche, Deputies John Bruton and Carey and Proinsias De Rossa for attending. This was a valuable exercise, as evidenced by the fact that all members stayed until the end of the meeting. It was an interesting meeting and I hope it will be a forerunner to similar meetings at which justice and home affairs matters highlighted at the convention will be discussed. I invite our guests to return to the committee in the future.

The joint committee went into private session at 7.02 p.m. and adjourned at 7.15 p.m.

Barr
Roinn