JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 4 Mar 2003

Vol. 1 No. 16

Racism and Interculturalism: Presentation.

Chairman

I welcome our guests to discuss combating racism and promoting interculturalism with representatives from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism. This is the first occasion on which the committee has held a meeting on this specific subject with both the Department and the consultative committee. It is timely to hold such a discussion at this time in view of the fact that an immigration Bill is being discussed this week in the Dáil.

In the context of its agreed work programme, the joint committee will regularly examine issues concerning the combating of racism and xenophobia at national and international level. Therefore, it is anticipated that the committee will want to explore further the points raised at today's meeting in due course.

I welcome Anastasia Crickley, the chairperson of the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism and invite her to introduce her colleague.

Ms Anastasia Crickley

I thank the committee for the invitation to address it. It gives us great pleasure to be here. I am delighted to introduce Mr. Kensika Monshengwo who is training officer and active director of the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism.

Chairman

I also welcome Ms Langford, Assistant Secretary at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, and invite her to introduce her colleagues.

Ms Sylda Langford

I thank the committee for inviting us and we look forward to sharing our information with the members. With me are Mr. Garrett Byrne, who is responsible for the Know Racism campaign in the Department, Mr. Niall McCutcheon, who will deal with legislation and policy issues, and Mr. Pat Wylie from the Reception and Integration Agency, RIA.

Chairman

I thank the delegation for coming. The attention of the visitors is drawn to the fact that while members of this committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to them. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I propose that the NCCRI makes a short presentation, followed by questions, after which Ms Langford and her colleagues may make their presentation.

Ms Crickley

Our understanding of what we were invited to do this afternoon was to tell members about the work of NCCRI. We are happy to discuss broader issues also, but we felt it would be useful to start by telling members about the background of the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism. I am conscious that it is a bit of a mouthful, but it does represent all the things we try to do. The NCCRI emerged as one of the Irish initiatives that was taken as a result of European Year Against Racism in 1997. During this year a successful committee operated in Ireland that embraced a partnership of State agencies and NGO sectors, putting together a programme of events supported by what was then the Department of Equality and Law Reform. One of the things recommended, and particularly supported by the NGO community, was that the sort of initiatives it was possible to take while working in partnership, as we were that year, should continue after the year was over. It was in that context that the NCCRI emerged.

Racism, as Travellers, Jewish people or black people in Ireland could attest to, had been a part of the experience of minorities long before 1997, but from that period onwards we began to see a change in the demographics of Ireland. In that arena, there was a feeling that it was a useful opportunity of focusing attention on addressing racism. Also, after 1997 there was an increased focus in the EU on addressing racism, which eventually led to the directives that Ireland is now in the process of implementing. In the global context, it was part of the preparations for the World Conference Against Racism that took place in Durban. There was an overall framework at national, European and global levels, into which the initiative to establish the NCCRI fitted.

Our approach is one of partnership. We bring together the statutory and NGO sectors and the State agencies. In particular, we try to take strategic initiatives. It is not our job to attempt to do everything, but it is our job to attempt to inform policy. Our twin remit is to take initiatives to address racism and promote interculturalism. We felt it was important to have both of those aims. Our method is also one of partnership. We attempt to walk that difficult tightrope of bringing together people from the different sectors to look collectively at how we might address racism and promote interculturalism. We also adopt a targeted approach, about which Mr. Monshengwo will talk to us.

Mr. Kensika Monshengwo

By a targeted approach Ms Crickley means that we try to identify new areas of work as the country becomes visibly more multi-ethnic. There are many areas to which people did not pay attention, but now more and more people are acknowledging that something must be done.

In the beginning, when NCCRI was created, one of the priority areas of work was training. In 1998, when the NCCRI was talking about training in different Departments, statutory bodies and NGOs, the response was often "no" or "why?" This was because many groups did not see the need for anti-racism training. What has happened since 2000, however, is that more groups are asking for anti-racism training; we are being inundated with requests. Before, we used to be called to provide training in the health boards - for example, the Southern Health Board - because of their dealings with refugees and asylum seekers. Now we are receiving calls from bodies such as the Office of the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. The focus has shifted from refugees and asylum seekers to bigger issues of immigration, work permits and so on.

What we are trying to do is to highlight new areas of work. When few groups were dealing with refugees and asylum seekers and related issues, we had working groups to deal with that. Now that more groups are dealing with it, we spend less time on it. The same thing happened with education. Now, in the Department of Education and Science, there is a working group on these issues. We identify new areas of work through our system of reporting of racist incidents. I mentioned that before, people were focusing on refugees and asylum seekers. The bulk of people now coming to the country are those who were invited by Irish companies, so that is an area with which we are dealing.

Ms Crickley

We try to take strategic initiatives that will inform policy and public opinion. We also attempt to work on a countrywide basis, not just confining our activities to Dublin, but specifically organising regional seminars and initiatives. We have also developed a number of initiatives on an all-island basis with colleagues in the Equality Commission of Northern Ireland and in the Northern Ireland Council for Ethnic Minorities. As well as that, in the context of looking at migration issues, we have developed an initiative with our colleagues in the United Kingdom, considering particular issues facing Ireland and the UK from that point of view. In a more global way, the NCCRI played a specific role in supporting Ireland's response to the World Conference Against Racism and ensuring that people were well informed about it.

We also believe that part of addressing racism and promoting interculturalism is making sure there is good, clear and accurate information available. We produced a leaflet in conjunction with the Know Racism campaign on myths about refugees and asylum seekers. We are actively involved in sharing information.

Our structure is straight forward. We act as a partnership between all the sectors that want to address racism. We are a company limited by guarantee that operates with funding from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and with some support from other Departments, including the Department of Community, Gaeltacht and Rural Affairs. We operate through a series of working groups and committees specifically targeted at our issues of concern and we have a small staff of six people, including one administration support worker. That is almost adequate, although, naturally, we would like more staff.

The function of an organisation such as the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism is to promote awareness and generate ideas, but not to build an empire that will take the direct funding required by non-governmental organisations and other initiatives to address racism.

Mr. Monshengwo

Our mission in the training department is to ensure groups or statutory bodies acquire the necessary awareness to work in a multi-ethnic environment. How do we do that? We encourage organisations, particularly Departments and statutory bodies, to include anti-racism as part of their training. We provide anti-racism training directly and develop resource material to assist other groups to take up anti-racism and to train staff so they can take up the anti-racism work themselves. We learn from the experience of countries with different ethnic minorities such as the US, Canada and Britain. We have been involved with the Garda racial and intercultural office in producing a training video and manual for new recruits. We have taken part in training with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, hospitals and the Department of Social and Family Affairs to train their trainers and provide resource material and disseminate information about training in general.

Ms Crickley

As well as requiring State policies and national training initiatives, addressing racism and promoting interculturalism requires community responses from the ground up. We have been involved in promoting responses in community and local development and social inclusion programmes through a small community development unit. We help local groups to take initiatives, hold one-off events and develop training programmes to address racism and create conditions for interculturalism in their areas.

We are conscious that women experience racism in different ways and we have focused on particular initiatives needed to address the racism they experience. We have organised through seminars with women from minority ethnic groups, submissions to the national women's strategy and the national action plan on women, as well as having ongoing discussions with them about how their needs can be met.

A particular focus for our work that reaches communities throughout the State is the week against racism which culminates in International Day Against Racism on 21 March. We have circulated the programme of events we are involved in around that period to the committee.

In conjunction with the Know Racism campaign and all of the political parties, we developed a protocol for political parties on ethics regarding racism at election times. Before the last general election the leaders of all political parties in the State signed up to the protocol outside the Dáil. We can contrast that favourably with what happened in the run up to general elections in some member states of the European Union in the past year. It was not purely as a result of the protocol but it helped to an extent.

We are involved in and support the development of the Irish national action plan against racism, one of the outcomes of the World Conference Against Racism in Durban. At the conference, the member states of the United Nations agreed to put together national action plans. In the NCCRI, we supported the organisation of seminars across the State on behalf of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform so people from a variety of sectors and interests had an opportunity to make their input about what they would like to see in the national action plan which is being developed in the Department.

Mr. Monshengwo

When the NCCRI was created there was no way to monitor racist incidents. Now the Garda has a section in the PULSE system that can be ticked for racist incidents. The NCCRI also put in place a system for individuals or groups representing them to report racist incidents. We do not claim this is scientific but it gives us an idea of where racism is happening. It is a road map of incidents and indicates where we should target our intervention. That gives us a great deal of information about what is happening at street level.

Ms Crickley

In case the committee thinks we have forgotten that our remit is not just to address racism but is also about the promotion of interculturalism, in the coming year we will be developing a forum on interculturalism to take place over the next two years. Again this includes all sectors in society - the minority and the majority communities, business, trade unions, the State and NGOs - looking at how we can create together a more intercultural Ireland.

This is a time of major challenges but it is also a time of great opportunity. As well as the clear basis for promoting interculturalism and addressing racism to create a sustainable economy, there are also moral and social reasons why we should address racism. As someone who worked for many years with Irish emigrants, I believe that our history and tradition, and the discrimination that we collectively experienced elsewhere, have put us in a position to understand some of these issues, and we should have the capacity to start addressing them at home. Committee members are welcome to put any questions to us they wish.

Chairman

Thank you, Ms Crickley, for giving us the background on the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism. It is great to see the amount of work that is being done. I understand the organisation is having great success with the work it is undertaking, and I wish it further success. It may be appropriate for the representatives of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come in at this juncture, and we can then have general questions. I thank the representatives of the Department for the interesting briefing materials they have provided us with, and I would appreciate if they could give is a further insight into these matters. The committee will have various questions it wishes to raise.

Ms Langford

We work in the equality division of the Department, which is effectively made up of five units. Units tend to emerge in response to the identification of new policy areas. When I started in the division some years ago, we just dealt with the area of employment equality. We then developed a gender equality unit, a disability equality unit, a child care unit and, now, an equal status unit. The purpose of the equal status unit is to deal with anti-discrimination policy, legislation and structures. Its function is also to advance national policy at EU, Council of Europe and UN levels. The equal status policy area is new to Ireland because the country has been used to dealing with emigration. We are now dealing with migration for the first time, and the issues presented by the consequent social changes are a challenge for us to meet. While we are developing expertise, we do not have all the essential knowledge and expertise that is required.

It is quite easy to make a mistake, and there is an element of trial and error in the policies and projects we try to push. We have an open mind and are in a learning capacity. At the World Conference Against Racism in Durban last year, we were the only delegation present with staff from both the equality and justice sides of the Government. We were complimented on that and it was seen to be a strength. The division of roles in our Department could be labelled as the hard side and the soft side. We find it is an advantage to be able to reach across policy areas. However, it is a new area, and over the next number of years we will become more assured as we learn how to deal with a different type of society.

We will divide our presentation into two parts. Mr. Byrne will deal with the Know Racism campaign and Mr. McCutcheon will deal with legislation, policy and structures.

Mr. Garrett Byrne

I apologise on behalf of the chairman of the Know Racism campaign, John McDonagh, who would like to be here but had a previous commitment in Cork. The Know Racism campaign was established at the end of 2000, with a three-year remit and a budget in the region of €5 million. It is managed by a high-level steering committee that is representative of ethnic minorities, the social partners, Government representatives, national bodies such as the Equality Authority, the Garda and civil servants from relevant Departments.

The campaign engages in a wide range of activities, including PR - which is managed by Adleman Consultants - and advertising, for which we used Irish International as the advertising agency. In the first year of the campaign, a lot of time and effort was put in, in consultation with the NCCRI, in planning how the committee would proceed and what areas it would tackle first. Committee members are probably familiar with the John Rocha emblem that was part of the branding of the Know Racism logo. I will make some emblems available to the secretary of the committee for distribution later this month.

We are engaged in a lot of activity in the next few weeks, with a week of activities taking place to mark the International Day Against Racism at the end of March. The steering committee's activities cut across a lot of issues in Irish life, such as education, the media, local development and a number of other areas. One of our most vibrant ways of doing business is through our grants scheme. At the moment, we are into the third phase of the plan, and approximately 60 grants have been approved on two different scales of activity. I have a list of the grants that have been approved and the different parts of the country from which applications came. I can also make that list available to the committee secretary.

In the second year of operations, 2002, the campaign moved into a higher gear and started branding the message and using national advertising campaigns. Committee members may recall that the first advertisement we kicked off with featured Jason Sherlock. We have had a number of successful advertising campaigns since. I think there were four last year, and another campaign will begin in early April. We see these as integral to the effort to build up recognition of the issue of racism.

We have also engaged in a lot of direct mail shots and marketing of information associated with the campaign, and we have produced a number of newsletters and so on. The peak time of activity seems to be March and April, so there will be a lot more newsletters making their way to committee members shortly. We also have a very active website, www.knowracism.ie, which has received a huge number of hits and has also received a lot of favourable comments on the links it contains to help people navigate relevant sites. The campaign won an award in 2002, alongside the Euro Changeover Board, for excellence in public information provision, so that was a good year for the steering committee. We have also been involved in assisting the "Mono" television series on RTE, so many different avenues of media communications are being addressed.

The campaign is now into its third and final year, and that dovetails neatly with the development of the national action plan against racism, about which my colleague will talk.

Mr. Niall McCutcheon

I deal with legislation and policy areas within the equal status division in relation to racism. We developed legislation in an international context. Ireland has entered certain conventions, including the UN Convention for the Elimination of all Forms of Racial Discrimination and various Council of Europe agreements, as well as operating within the context of the European Union. Article 13 of the Treaty of the European Union, which was introduced as part of the Amsterdam treaty, enables the EU to legislate to combat discrimination on various grounds, including race.

In 2000, the Council of Ministers passed a directive, known as the race directive, requiring all member states to outlaw discrimination on the grounds of race in the employment and non-employment areas. In Ireland, the passage of the Employment Equality Act 1998 and the Equal Status Act 2000 had already outlawed discrimination on nine grounds, including race, in both the employment and non-employment areas, so we were substantially compliant with the terms of the directive. However, it will be necessary to amend both these Acts to give full effect to the race directive. The main area where change will be required is in terms of burden of proof. The burden of proof will lie on the respondent to an allegation of discrimination once a prima facie case has been proved. Other, more minor changes, will also be required.

Our legislation develops within an equality framework. We try as far as possible to maintain equal protection on all the grounds covered by equality legislation. Our aim in transposing the race directive will be, as far as possible, to extend those protections across all the grounds. Another area where there will be some development is criminal law. A draft framework decision on racism and xenophobia is currently being discussed at the Council which seeks to have an approximation of criminal law against racism and xenophobia in the member states.

Apart from legislation a series of policy initiatives are taking place in many Departments, at both national and local authority level. All city and county development boards, for example, produced statements of strategy recently. Each one contains a commitment to equality, in particular, equality for ethnic minorities. In the Department of Health and Children and the Department of Education and Science, for example, there are various initiatives to combat racism and promote interculturalism. The World Conference against Racism resulted in a commitment, binding on all those who signed the declaration, to draft national action plans against racism. The Government sees the drafting of Ireland's national action plan against racism as an opportunity to draw together the existing initiatives taking place at national and local level and to form a strategic framework on initiatives and policy for combating racism and promoting interculturalism.

With the invaluable assistance of the NCCRI, we launched, last March, a consultative process with seminars at both national and regional level. There were also seminars dealing with specific themes which have emerged. This enabled everybody who wished to do so to make a contribution on what ought to go into the national action plan. That consultative process is now coming to an end. We were assisted by a steering committee representative of NGOs, relevant Departments, statutory bodies and the social partners. The consultative process was extremely enlightening for everybody who took part. In some of the regional seminars, for example, people sat down together for the first time to discuss issues of racism and interculturalism and what could be done in their local area. That was an important lesson and it is something I will see is carried forward in the planning process.

To summarise, in a legislative context we see anti-racism and the promotion of interculturalism as an aspect of the general equality framework which has been established. In policy terms, there is a need to make progress in specific sectors and areas, both nationally and locally, but in the context of an overall strategic framework.

Chairman

Mr. Pat Wylie is principal officer in the Reception and Integration Agency area. There were bad days during 1997 and 1998 but things seem to have changed dramatically over the past few years. Will you give us a brief overview of how this area has developed over the period from 1997 to now?

Mr. Pat Wylie

I will start with the initiatives we have taken to combat racism and promote interculturalism. I can then give a broader overview as to how things stand in the operational area. We act on a number of levels in trying to combat racism and promote interculturalism. One of the primary ways in which we operate is that we administer the European refugee fund. We give grants to agencies and voluntary groups working with asylum seekers in an effort to promote integration into local communities and to support other initiatives. In 2001, we gave €1,300,000 to various organisations and in 2002, we gave €907,000.

An officer is assigned to us from the Red Cross, who has been working with us from the start, with the remit of trying to facilitate the establishment of support groups in local communities. We have been quite successful in that. They can identify with the local asylum seeker groups, identify their needs, welcome them into the community and deal with issues they might have in trying to interface with statutory or other service providers. Something we have done for the past two years, which we hope to do again this year and which has been positive in terms of awareness at national level and on the publicity front, is facilitate the holding of the community games in Mosney. Over the three weekends there were approximately 7,000 athletes with their managers and coaches. There were also visitors and spectators. This year, we are hosting the Special Olympics in at least one of our centres. Again, we are providing accommodation and facilities for athletes, trainers and managers with a view to combating racism and dealing with issues of multiculturalism in that area.

I head the operations division in the agency. We have 59 accommodation centres in 24 counties. We were particularly cognisant that, given that people would be living in our centres while their applications were being processed, the onus was on us to make their stay welcoming and comfortable and to ensure that we would be aware of issues that would arise. We started by running a number of training seminars for our proprietors in four regional bases. We have had a number of training seminars. The two that are most pertinent to the work of this committee were the seminar held on racism and interculturalism which was most successful and a second, duplicate seminar for our staff.

We are cognisant that there are approximately 140 nationalities in our centres. It is hard to please everybody all the time when one is providing full board accommodation. To identify the needs and meet them as best we can, we engaged the services of an executive chef. Again, we held a number of regional food fora in which asylum seekers were invited to participate. As a result of that and the input from asylum seekers and various other interests in developing ethnic cuisine, we now have 56 day menu cycles in our bigger centres, with 28 day menu cycles in other centres.

After Christmas we established a working group chaired by Mr. Jack Marrinan, former general secretary of the Garda Representative Association, who is now working in mediation. The working group included a wide range of asylum seeker and other statutory interests and sought to come up with a transparent dispute resolution process for people who are resident in our asylum seeker centres. Its recommendations will go to the Minister very quickly.

We are fully aware of the Irish-born child issue. We have always been careful to ensure that the needs of all children, particularly those with special needs or other problems that might require support, are met to the fullest extent. We provide a full range of services on site for mothers and children. We also have developed, particularly at Mosney because we had the space, mother and toddler groups which comprise representatives of both the local community and the residents, with a range of classes in sewing, computers, English and other subjects. That is the type of work we do.

Chairman

Ms Langford, do you wish to comment further?

Ms Langford

We are learning and as problems are identified we try to develop policies for them. I have no doubt that we make some errors because it is not a specific science. However, I hope we learn a lot from the NCCRI and we talk to the NGOs. With the partnership between statutory and voluntary organisations, I hope that in time we will prevent racism arising in Ireland in a serious way. We know it is important to intervene, to be proactive, to promote programmes and projects and to be ahead of ourselves, as it were. We see it as a challenge and hope we are up to the task.

Chairman

The work of the Department and the staff has been demonstrated on the ground. When I ran for election in 1997 things were difficult but they have improved dramatically in recent years as a result of the good efforts and hard work of everyone involved, the NGOs as well as the Department.

Deputy Costello

I thank both delegations for a very interesting and illuminating account of the work that is being done. The National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism is a partnership of Departments set up by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. It is almost a contradiction in terms, like the lion lying down with the lamb, the Department working with the NGOs. It is nice to see this partnership between the agencies and the Department.

I was struck by the fact that the International Day Against Racism is during St. Patrick's Day week, on 21 March. That week is an ideal time for events because St. Patrick is the patron saint of the Irish diaspora. We are keenly aware of the number of Irish people who have gone to every society across the globe. Interculturalism, multiculturalism and ethnic grouping is part and parcel of the Irish experience and St. Patrick's Day week is the ideal opportunity to mark that.

There is no particular event for politicians in the calendar. Has this been circulated to politicians so that they are aware of events taking place in their constituencies? That would be worthwhile. It would add to the awareness of the campaign against racism if politicians were encouraged to be present at these events.

Much work is being done domestically and in the background by the UN and the EU. There have been many initiatives since this arose as an issue. It is essential that we have a co-ordinated and well resourced campaign against racism. If we do not have it now we could end up with a racist society that passes problems from generation to generation. Of all the countries of Europe, we are newest to an influx of different ethnic groups and we must get this right to ensure we combat racism and xenophobia.

Dublin City Council is organising a meeting for 20 March to set up a committee on racism. Has the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism done any work to encourage local authorities to set up committees where local councils and interested public representatives could promote activities to combat racism? How can we take steps to combat racism in the community? Awareness and education were mentioned. What about community organisations and residents' associations? Are there sufficient resources to work at that level?

The record of incidents of racism shows that there has been an increase in numbers since collection of the data started. There is no information, however, about how these incidents are recorded. Does the organisation wait for a complaint from the public or does it collate them from reports to the gardaí? How accurate is the mechanism?

There are increasing incidents of racism in Dublin. It seems to be linked to the concentration of ethnic groups in certain areas. Does the organisation have a policy on the ghettoisation of new minority groups? How can such a policy be implemented in conjunction with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform? How will it operate in relation to the new policy of direct provision? What does the consultative committee think of the Department assuming 100% responsibility for dealing with asylum seekers from their arrival until their case is processed?

How do the Department and the consultative committee relate to the Equality Authority? Have they developed channels that could be used to solve problems that might arise? Is there an integrated approach whereby the Department could provide the necessary resources or put legislation in place to deal with the issue?

Chairman

Perhaps Ms Crickley could look at the International Day Against Racism and combating racism on a local basis with residents. The Department could then look at local authorities, direct provision and the Equality Authority.

Ms Crickley

I thank Deputy Costello for his kind remarks and his questions. The NCCRI is walking a tight rope. We are attempting to form a partnership between a variety of sectors and that has implications for our work and how we do it. The work we do in such partnerships is very important. I see partnership as one of the ways forward. There are places for other types of organisations as well. As the Department pointed out, there are places for State initiatives and for direct NGO initiatives which may take a different type of approach. We agree co-ordination is important and is what we attempt to do in our partnership to try to co-ordinate efforts to maximise what is done. That takes a bit of negotiation and agreement. There are representatives from the various minority communities on our board. A number of Departments and State agencies work in partnership with us.

In regard to what is being done at local level, the community development support programme, which has projects throughout the country in urban and rural areas, and the local development social inclusion programme have, in partnership with the NCCRI and other agencies, developed guidelines for addressing racism. That is a national initiative. There have also been a number of directly significant one-off initiatives throughout the country which we have supported. For example, one was undertaken by the Kerry partnership in Tralee. A number of others have been undertaken by community groups - for example, in the north inner city of Dublin, an area with which the Deputy will be quite familiar. The inner city organisation network in conjunction with ourselves undertook an initiative to address racism in the north inner city area.

We have supported a combination of direct initiatives as a result of local community groups approaching us. We have supported directly and indirectly, although not usually with money because we operate on a basis of not trying to duplicate what others are doing, or through policy initiatives at a national level, to get national programmes to look at how, in their day to day work, they can include people from different groups and directly address racism. In particular, I refer to the local development programme and the community development programme.

We would be delighted if Members of the Oireachtas undertook to do something on 21 March. We co-ordinate and provide information on what various groups are organising locally. We would be delighted to hear of an initiative in the Houses of Oireachtas. We would also be more than happy to circulate information about the various initiatives taking place because it would be particularly useful if Members of the Houses attended them.

I was asked about ghettoisation. In terms of people coming into the country, last year approximately 40,000 work permits were issued and there were approximately 10,000 refugees and asylum seekers. There is a shift. Those who come here on work permits go to wherever jobs are available just as we, as emigrants, did. If the jobs are clustered in particular areas, that is quite likely where they will end up. It is important to point out that at this point they are scattered all over the country and are fairly well dispersed. We do not have a policy in favour of ghettoisation. We are in favour of integration where people, whether long-term or short-term residents, are able to maintain their identity and be respected.

Mr. McCutcheon

The Equality Authority is a statutory body which has among its functions the role of advising the Minister on policy and legislation in the area of equality, of promoting equality in and outside the workplace and of advising people who feel they may have been discriminated against. The Equality Authority has jurisdiction over nine grounds which are protected by equality legislation, including race. The authority works extremely closely with the NCCRI and the Department. The NCCRI and the Equality Authority are what is described as the national focal point in Europe for what is called the RAXEN network, a network of information on combating racism and xenophobia. It comes under the aegis of the European Union Monitoring Centre for Racism and Xenophobia.

In regard to the development of the national action plan against racism, a core group made up of the Department of Foreign Affairs, the NCCRI, the Equality Authority and the Irish Human Rights Commission has assisted my Department. It has provided great assistance in developing the policy to date. The Equality Authority is represented on the steering group of the Know Racism campaign. There is daily contact between my division and the Equality Authority on development of policy in relation to racism and also the entire equality agenda.

Mr. Byrne

I refer to the point the Deputy made on community organisations or residents' organisations and how one could engage people in this area. In the grant schemes we have had to date, we have given out between 300 and 400 grants which were small in many areas. While we depend on people to respond to our advertisements and to take the initiative, we recognise it is important we engage more with community development structures, particularly as we come to the development of the action plan. In recent weeks I spoke to the Dublin City Development Board in regard to all the networks and structures it has. We looked at different options there. There is an extraordinary range of consultation in the new community development structures, into which we would like to tap.

Chairman

I refer to training which Mr. Monshengwo discussed earlier. He said trainee gardaí received training. Are serving gardaí trained or is the focus on new recruits only? Has specific work been done by the NCCRI on the Traveller community?

Deputy Hoctor

I welcome the NCCRI and Ms Langford and her team from the Department. I compliment the advertising campaign, which has been evident and has no doubt made an impact on all facets of Irish society in terms of the promotion of anti-racism. I also compliment the website. We live in a world of marketing and advertising is a great tool to use. We look forward to the new range of advertisements later in the spring.

I am involved with an ADM group in the towns of Nenagh and Tipperary. It is actively preparing for a multicultural night on 13 March. It will attempt to help the ethnic groups and non-nationals who live in the area of Nenagh to get to know each other and the community. Does the NCCRI provide information? Is it a consultative group from which groups such as the Nenagh community network can get help and advice on organising such an event? It is a different event from that usually organised in terms of language, interpretation and other obstacles which might arise. It is a first for Nenagh to organise such a multicultural event and we are looking forward to it. What efforts have been made at primary and secondary level? There must be awareness from primary level upwards of the approach children should be encouraged to take because there is no doubt bullying affects the entire sector and is a major concern for parents and teachers. The group can play a positive role in promoting anti-racism and equality.

I welcome the initiatives that have been outlined for members of ethnic and non-national groups who are encouraged and helped through the various programmes provided. Are assertiveness courses provided? How are they encouraged to cope when anti-racist remarks are made to them on the street? It is important that they should be equipped with the skills to recognise there is a difficulty with the person making the remark rather than a problem with themselves. There must be assistance for them because language must be a barrier in some cases. If they are subject to horrendous verbal attacks, never mind physical attacks, they should be able to cope with them and know that they should stand back rather than retaliate, which is tempting. Do the courses cover such incidents? Education is needed for everybody so that less violence occurs.

Mr. Monshengwo

The way we organise our training is, first, we want to raise awareness about racism and what is happening. The use of the term "interculturalism" instead of "assimilation" or "multiculturalism" is a choice. That is in response to the reference to ghettoisation. Many people tell us that we have a long name. We want to be against racism but once racism disappears, what will remain? We must propose something proactive, a model of society that we call "interculturalism", which implies different groups will interact. A policy must be put in place to make sure such interaction happens and to break down the barriers that are preventing some groups from accessing the mainstream and job opportunities etc. That ties in with the question about travel, which Ms Crickley will take. When we talk about racism in general, we also include the experience of Travellers in Ireland. It does not have to be seen that new people arriving in the country are moving forward and indigenous people are staying behind. We do not want to see that happening. In interculturalism, ghettoisation is avoided.

Included in the training of the Garda is the video that we produced in collaboration with it and other groups. It was for the newcomers to the force. The first part of the training is about raising awareness but the second part is a whole organisation approach to anti-racism. We want to make sure the organisation as a whole puts in place policies and revises its practices to ensure racism does not happen. Structures must be put in place. It is important to note there is training within the Garda structure. Awareness is starting to come, as are the structures. The fact that there is a Garda racial and intercultural office means there is a specific body within the organisation whereby whenever there is an anti-racism or interculturalism problem, that is where one has to go. Many private companies such as Eircom and so on do that. If there is a problem with anti-racism, there is an office to go to.

The Deputy mentioned anti-bullying policies in schools etc., which are good. We have developed packs for school teachers and youth workers that they can download from our website but it is not enough for teachers to raise awareness every year in their schools. It is good but it is not enough. If the school itself has a whole organisation approach to anti-racism and puts structures in place, it becomes normal. As legislation changes, people have to go back and revise their recruitment and advertising policies etc.

Ethnic monitoring is the practical element of the second part of our training so that it will be known how many people from a certain community applied, how many got jobs and how many were promoted. That must be tracked. Ethnic monitoring is important.

Ms Crickley

"Strategic initiatives" means getting others involved as well as ourselves. Strategic initiatives from the point of view of working through ADM would be to organise a number of seminars at national level, as we did, to promote the inclusion of refugees and asylum seekers in the work undertaken through their programmes. We put the framework in place first at national level so that this work is supported and encouraged and all the local groups funded through that budget are encouraged. They get a little sheet of paper that states that one of the things they can do, and are encouraged to do, is work with refugees and asylum seekers. That is one part of the strategy.

The other part of the strategy is that where new initiatives are taken, we get involved in them more to help in terms of demonstration and creating a knock-on effect. That is dependent on staff time and resources, whether I am available or others are available to attend meetings. I am familiar with the Nenagh initiative. A number of initiatives have been taken by similar groups. They are not exactly the same. We have a two-pronged approach to try to get it into the overall programme and then attempt to create models that other people can replicate.

Assertiveness is important so that people can feel they have a right to be supported. From that point of view, another strategic initiative has been our small community development unit, a one-person unit. The unit, through funding from the community development support programme, supports the development of groups and supports local groups to include people from minority ethnic group backgrounds. In that way if people are organising collectively and expressing their concerns to others, they can be empowered. It is not within our remit to organise assertiveness training but we believe very strongly in the right of people to organise themselves collectively and, where possible, we also try to support that.

We have also attempted to ensure information regarding their rights is available to people because whatever their status in the country, the law applies in terms of their rights.

Mr. McCutcheon

In relation to Travellers, prior to the development of the Know Racism campaign there was funding for the Citizen Traveller campaign and the lessons learned from that campaign were transferred to the Know Racism campaign. One of the most active members representing the Irish Traveller Movement was co-opted on to the steering group of the Know racism campaign because of his experience in that campaign. We work closely with Traveller organisations, which were also represented on the steering group for the national action plan against racism. They have to a certain extent provided a model for groups representing ethnic minorities in their involvement with Departments, local authorities and State agencies. Traveller organisations have been of great assistance both to Departments and State agencies and also to ethnic minority groups in familiarising themselves with how to become involved in the development of policy.

Chairman

What about giving training to children at a young age in schools? Deputy Hoctor asked about this.

Mr. Byrne

The Department of Education and Science is represented on our steering group for the Know Racism campaign. One of the initiatives it organised in recent months was a conference at the end of last year. I have a document, which I did not bring with me, relating to the findings of the conference. Perhaps I could pass that on to the Deputy.

Deputy F. McGrath

I welcome the NCCRI and the Department. I strongly agree with the Chairman's remarks about their work. It is valuable and essential. In the context of broader society and the current climate, they have the potential to be the engine room that facilitates change that will help us. It is like what is happening with the Taoiseach being involved in the debate about the Good Friday Agreement and the question of peace and equality, which is the word that will come across. The group's role will be crucial in the question of racism in society.

I will focus on three areas: the media, the law and education. I will raise a number of queries to which the witnesses may wish to respond later. One area that has not been discussed so far is the role of the media in racism. Sections of the media have been disgraceful and I would strongly challenge the ethics of their job. A recent example was reports about grants of €3,000 to €5,000 for refugees and asylum seekers to buy cars. Many of my constituents believed this, especially poor constituents who brought it to my attention. I pointed out to them that it was untrue, but they had been misled by the media.

That is happening at national level. There is also the situation at international level where, for example, six Iraqi civilians were killed and 15 injured in the Middle East conflict, with Palestinians being killed, yet the international media do not give it the same level of coverage and respect as they would if the people had been white. It is important that the Department and the NCCRI challenge the media on these issues. Do they see it as part of their role to challenge them?

On the issue of law, we spoke about Garda training in human rights, which is essential. However, there is also the terrible situation where there is no requirement for competent translators to be involved in the justice system. The groups must demand a panel of translators which could be used by the Garda and the courts. We will assist and support them in this regard. If we do not have such a panel, we are paying lip service to ethnic minorities. This is important.

On violence and racism, last night there was the horrific case on O'Connell Street where two Indian nationals were attacked and beaten up. It was a racist attack. Such physical assaults are horrific and are a nightmare for the families and friends of the victims. I have met many of them and know what they have suffered. I had the opportunity of working for the past few years in a primary school in the north inner city of Dublin where 15% of the children were from different ethnic minorities. We have a problem with racist violence and we had better do something about it before it gets worse.

I agree with what Deputy Hoctor said about education. The key lesson I learned from working in a school, 15% of whose enrolment comprised children from different countries, was that children do not have baggage about racism, rather it is adults. It was they who brought the baggage into classrooms. Four year olds in junior infants from seven or eight different countries had no problem accommodating difference. I know because I worked with them as principal of the school. Any strategic plan must be targeted at junior primary schools. Otherwise, we are going nowhere. This would develop the idea of interculturalism which must be part of a proactive approach.

We should examine the good practices of schools and clubs and learn from those which have the good ideas. The amazing aspect to this is that some of the schools and clubs with good practices are often in disadvantaged areas. Some of the middle class, more affluent schools could learn from them. The successful schools have drawn up their own policies of interculturalism with families. Such schools exist throughout the country. I encourage the use of such successful policies of interculturalism.

On the issue of developing the anti-racism campaign in a positive way, arts, music and drama must be used. Mr. Byrne touched on the issue of sport. This is essential. Curtis Fleming was a hero in our school in Dorset Street because he was a young premier division soccer player from Ballybough. That had a positive impact on six to nine year olds on the school team. Curtis Fleming was very popular and that was the angle we pushed and developed. The same was the case for Paul McGrath and Jason Sherlock. I strongly support Mr. Byrne's view of developing the strategy regarding sport.

Tackling racism is like the Good Friday Agreement. It is a great package and vision and we are all anti-racist, but how to implement and develop it is the tough question.

Touching on a pet subject of mine, I welcome the development of a disability unit within the Department and commend the work it has done in recent years. I know from having spoken to and worked with families who have a member with a disability that they appreciate that work. I hope the Department of Finance does not impede the development of a quality Disability Bill that will give rights to all people with a disability. I thank the groups for their work and commend them on it.

Chairman

The media tend to be tarred with the same brush as politicians. The majority of the media are responsible. Some elements are present listening to the debate. I take it that Deputy Finian McGrath refers only to a small minority of the media. Perhaps he will clarify that?

Deputy F. McGrath

A substantial minority are not doing a professional and objective job. I would be critical of the mainstream media for not giving the same coverage to the deaths of Palestinian or Iraqi children as they would if these incidents happened in the West.

Chairman

No, I am referring to the cheques for €2,000 from the Department of Social and Family Affairs to buy cars. Only a small number of the media are involved in this, not the general media.

Deputy F. McGrath

I agree with the Chairman. A minority of tabloid media are involved.

Chairman

I will take what the Deputy said as comments. I will allow Deputy Ó Fearghaíl to ask questions or make comments before coming back to the witnesses for a final wrap-up.

Deputy Ó Fearghaíl

Much of what was needed to be said or asked has been said or asked. I thank those who made presentations. They were enlightening and informative. The Department is to be congratulated for the positive partnership it appears to have built with non-governmental organisations.

When listening to the presentations I was conscious of Father MacGréil's book about prejudice and intolerance in Ireland which was published in 1978 or 1979. He had some very negative things to say about society. Would the groups care to comment in a general way on whether we have progressed from the high levels of intolerance and prejudice that existed at the time?

I am convinced that other members are correct when they speak about the need for strategies to promote interculturalism locally. It struck me from having read the briefing material that there is a heavy emphasis on racism. I am reminded of the words of the song: "Accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative". By promoting interculturalism at local level we can rid society of the plague of racism.

We have tried at local level to tackle the issue of homelessness by establishing inter-agency groups of health boards and county councils to come forward with positive policy proposals, and likewise in the area of Traveller accommodation where a great deal of work has been done in various counties through the consultative committees on Traveller accommodation. Would it be feasible to create such a local forum at county level involving the statutory and voluntary agencies to address the issue of interculturalism? Do the witnesses have a view on that and is it something that could be done?

I agree with the points made about education by Deputy Hoctor and others. I recently had the privilege of attending the opening of a multi-ethnic pre-school playgroup in my area, which brought together not only small children from various ethnic groups, but also, in a manner that would not have been achievable otherwise, their parents. Many of us live in areas where there are not just asylum seekers, but also a multiplicity of non-nationals working in various activities. In County Kildare, people from many parts of the world work in the bloodstock industry and a significant number of non-nationals also work in the meat processing sector. We debated this matter before with the Equality Authority but perhaps the witnesses will describe the experiences of various ethnic groups in employment. Are people experiencing racism in their day-to-day working lives?

I recently met a school principal who told me that 19 different nationalities were represented in her primary school. We referred to inservice training and education for gardaí, but what effective inservice training does the Department of Education and Science provide in that area? Everyone involved in the Know Racism campaign deserves to be complimented because it was well conceived and executed.

The documentation supplied to us appears to indicate that many racist incidents are street-based. They are particularly vicious and insidious and we condemn them all, but to what extent are they racist or are they really further examples of the awful violence we see on our streets?

Chairman

We have noticed a steep increase in the circulation of offensive material online, particularly in the run-up to the general election and the Treaty of Nice referendum campaign. The additional protocol to the convention on cyber-crime concerning the criminalisation of acts of a racist and xenophobic nature committed through computer systems was opened for signature by the Governments in January 2003. Will the officials confirm if this takes into account the concept of holocaust denial, is there a time frame envisaged for the protocol and has there been any movement on it? Perhaps the witnesses will answer the questions that have been asked as best they can and wind up on behalf of the Department.

Ms Langford

Mr. Byrne and Mr. McCutcheon have been working with the media on aspects of this so I will leave it to them to respond to Deputy Finian McGrath's comments. I will convey the remarks regarding court translators to the Secretary General of the Department. It is important to make contact with children before they reach pre-school age. The child care programme for which we are responsible has an advisory sub-committee which is working on guidelines on diversity to facilitate this. We feel strongly that people who run pre-schools should have guidelines and should be made aware of diversity to make sure they start on the right foot. The Department of Education and Science is keenly aware of the work which needs to be done in the schools and I will convey the comments made here to the Department.

Deputy Ó Fearghaíl asked how far we have come in the context of Father MacGréil's book on prejudice. When we started the Know Racism campaign, we did not know what level to pitch it or exactly what to do. We learned three lessons from research carried out at the pilot stage of the campaign. The first was that people did not want to be lectured - they wanted to hear from us, but they did not want fingers pointed at them. That lesson dictated the tone of the campaign. We also learned that there is a fear among communities that they could lose their community way of life. As part of trying to cope with changes in society, we learned that we must cherish what we have as well as what is new - we are not replacing one culture with another. This lesson informed the concept of interculturalism because it is important to assuage people's fears. Another lesson indicated that it is a pattern of human behaviour that causes a reflex action to difference, whether they are Travellers or people from a different culture. There is not much possibility of change if we do not accept that. Part of the work that must be done is to enable people to understand human behaviour and their fear of anything that is different and acknowledge those fears to embrace difference.

The Equality Authority has put a great deal of work into Anti-Racism Workplace Day with IBEC and the ICTU in the context of people's experiences of racism in the workplace. We have learned that if one wants to communicate with adults, the most important place to do so is in the workplace where everybody is equal. If we can work well with the IBEC and the ICTU, there should be scope for avoiding incidents in the workplace. Those are the comments that struck me as I listened to the questions. I ask Mr. Byrne and Mr. McCutcheon to address their experiences with the media.

Mr. McCutcheon

In the preparation of the national action plan, we held a thematic seminar on the role of the media which was attended by 30 or 40 people, including practising journalists, representatives of Departments and NGOs. The various issues were discussed and a demand emerged for some forum in which people could make complaints about the media. There were demands for a press council, but there was a difference of opinion. The NUJ did not want such a press council to be on a statutory basis because there is tension between the right of free speech and the right of freedom of the press and the right of redress for people who feel they have been attacked. This is an issue which the Department will examine in the context of drawing up a national action plan against racism, but also in the context of a review of the libel laws. Clearly, some redress is necessary for people who feel their integrity or rights have been attacked in the media.

Local authority structures are an essential element of any strategy to combat racism because it can only be combated at local level. With the Equality Authority and local authorities, we have drawn up a template for the equality-proofing of city and county development plans. It is an approach which will try to anticipate the likely impact of local authority strategies under the city and county development boards on particular groups who are protected under equality legislation, including Travellers and ethnic minority groups. Practically all the city and county development strategies which have been published have included specific or general objectives in regard to equality and ethnic minorities in particular. When implementing the strategies, there will be a need to use all the existing city and county boards and fora to give flesh to these commitments. It is a very important aspect, which I am sure will be covered in the national plan.

Mr. Byrne

After each successive phase in our advertising campaign, information on the impact of the advertisement was fed back to us. The theme that came across most was that not everyone was yet able to "celebrate" diversity. There was a gradual spectrum of feelings about this issue which people experienced. Some of the tendencies towards racism in Ireland come from our isolation and as the population mix has increased significantly in the past five or six years the tone of the advertisements has tried to address this.

Ms Crickley

I was interested in the Chairm an's comments about the media. Our strategy has been to engage with the media as far as possible in creating discussion around interculturalism and racism and to challenge them. A number of years ago we held a seminar, together with the National Union of Journalists, who have been very active in promoting and attempting to address the issues. We are conscious that major problems have frequently emerged where people are not actively involved in a collective way with their colleagues or in a union. We have a twin strategy of trying to support the media with good reporting, on the one hand, and directly challenging it where we can, on the other.

On the law, Deputy Finian McGrath raised issues which are important. I am conscious that some of the responses from the Department about the new EU directives will be useful. From our point of view, we are working on developing relations with the people who are involved in delivering the law, so to speak, including the Garda in terms of inservice and pre-service training. I agree with those who said we need inservice as well as pre-service training. As an educator, I would say that we also need to ensure that pre-service training means a question in the examination at the end, not just an addendum. The issue needs to be taken seriously. We are clear about the need for ongoing inservice training. In any profession, ongoing inservice training often means trying to change attitudes that are fairly well embedded. Much of the training Kensika has been doing could be put into the role of ongoing inservice training across a variety of issues.

We support the inclusion of anti-racism and interculturalism modules within the school system and in adult education, youth work programmes and the pre-school system. As Kensika pointed out, packs are available and there is the possibility of developing whole school approaches, which we will support. We agree this is something that needs to be implemented from a very early age. One of our staff members has been involved in this regard with the equal opportunities child care programme in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

The week against racism in the workplace is one of the initiatives with which NCCRI is associated. I am particularly conscious that racism in the workplace can arise for people who feel vulnerable. There are areas on which we as a society need to work. People who are on work permits may feel particularly vulnerable if the work permit is held by their employer. They may not feel in a position to report racism and discrimination, depending on the circumstances in which they find themselves. Issues emerged recently with regard to women migrants. These are issues that must be addressed.

We agree with local fora and local committees. Where we have been involved in organising seminars or activities at local level, we have attempted in that one-off activity to bring together the local partnership about which Deputy Ó Fearghaíl spoke, including representatives of local authorities, NGOs and people from a variety of backgrounds. Sometimes it means that sparks fly. It is useful, however, that sparks fly in the room and that there is discussion around the table. As was said earlier, in some ways if one creates a context within which a discussion can be held, one is also creating a context within which the next step can be taken and something can be done about it. In our proposed forum on interculturalism, we will be looking in particular at local initiatives, initiatives that include local authorities.

I was pleased to be reminded of Fr. McGréil's study. When he undertook a follow-up study, the results were not great. I believe we currently have a window of opportunity. The NCCRI sees itself as one voice, together with the statutory side and a variety of other voices on the NGO side. As I said earlier, we attempt to walk a tight rope of independence. We make many submissions to various State agencies and Departments, some of which are taken on board. That is by way of putting ourselves into the policy arena. We believe much can be achieved by a small organisation with a fairly tight focus.

Mr. Monshengwo

I want to clarify Deputy Ó Fearghaíl's question about whether the crime is racism or street violence. There has been ongoing debate, particularly in our work with the Garda Síochána, whether a crime is a racist one or just a simple crime. The definition used is similar to that used in the UK following the Stephen Lawrence inquiry, that is, any crime which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person can be classified as a racist crime. If one reports a crime during which racial slurs are used, sometimes the danger is that people may say it is just a crime, there is nothing racist about it, you have just been robbed. It is important to note whether the person says it is a racist crime, or they perceive it to be a racist crime, so that we can monitor the situation. There is a fine line between one having a purse robbed and a racist crime. There is a clear definition there.

Chairman

I thank the representatives for coming here today. Their contributions gave great insight to members of the committee into the work they are doing. It is an important part of our remit as members of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights. I hope we will meet on a regular basis to consider how things are going and, I hope, improvements made.

The joint committee went into private session and adjourned at 4.25 p.m.