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Joint Committee on Key Issues affecting the Traveller Community (2023) díospóireacht -
Thursday, 30 Nov 2023

Traveller Accommodation

Good morning. I thank members and witnesses for being here. We are now in public session as we have a quorum.

I will read a note on privilege. I remind members that they must be physically present within Leinster House in order to take part in or comment during the public meeting. I also remind them not to use someone's name without their permission.

The first item on the agenda is the draft minutes of our recent meetings on 26 October and 9 November, which were circulated to members. Are they agreed? Agreed

The second item on the agenda is Traveller accommodation. We are delighted to have the Irish Traveller Movement here this morning to give us a presentation on where we are with Traveller accommodation. Between now and Christmas, Cork City Council, Dublin City Council, Galway County Council and Mayo County Council will appear before the committee. Other Traveller organisations will also come before the committee in the next few weeks to give us information about where we are with Traveller accommodation. I welcome Mr. Bernie Joyce and Ms Jacinta Brack from the Irish Traveller Movement. Unfortunately, Ms Amy Ward could not be with us. I suggest that we publish the organisation's submission on the committee website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I propose that we listen to the opening statements from our two witnesses. I will hand over to Mr. Joyce.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

I thank the Chair, Deputies and Senators for the opportunity to present on behalf of the Irish Traveller Movement and our members across every county in Ireland.

Before addressing the overall context, as an Irish Traveller and as the director of the Irish Traveller Movement, I must say it important that we call this what it is. Traveller accommodation is in absolute crisis. It has been and continues to be to the present day. I remind my community that this is not of its making, but rather it is due to the practices and policies of the State that have a profound impact on Travellers' lives every day. There is inadequate provision of accommodation on this island. I further add that a secure home is a fundamental human right which should be afforded to all of us. However, it does not seem to be afforded to our community. Today and over many decades, Traveller organisations have been advocating for this with and on behalf of the community. The sad reality is that organisations and the community have been advocating for basic facilities, such as water, electricity and sanitation - they are the minimum, the basics - in one of the richest countries in the world.

While successive governments point to a range of policies nationally whose focus has been in part on the needs of Travellers, it is difficult to argue that much has changed in the life chances of our community. We do not see real, meaningful or tangible actions or implementation of policies.

Today is, one, to remind Senators and Deputies and, two, to go somewhat further. We have seen an increase in Travellers forced to live in unauthorised sites and experience hidden homelessness. Overcrowding is at a chronic level. According to the ETHOS model, overcrowding is recognised under the definition of “homelessness”. In our recent response to the proposed amendments to the Housing Act 1988, we noted among other things that, typically, rights are established on an individual rather than household basis. Therefore, adopting a framework that emphasises households, for which there is no legal definition, may further obscure the means by which the individual rights of Travellers experiencing homelessness are to be fulfilled by appropriate governing bodies. Travellers already face disproportionate housing discrimination due to shortages of housing stock of adequate size for some larger families and are more likely to become homeless and remain homeless for longer.

As we know, many policies are flawed to begin with and a lack of progress in improving physical and mental health outcomes has been accompanied by persistent disadvantage or, indeed, regressive steps in the area of accommodation. This should have a major implication for current policy responses to Traveller accommodation needs. It means much greater urgency and policy efforts are required to measure, understand and address the current crisis. The latest figures show the number of families sharing increased from 828 to 907. That is an extra 79. Families living on unauthorized sites rose from 487 to 654. That is in increase of 167 in one year. That accounts for approximately 6,500 to 8,200 individuals and does not include Travellers who are homeless, thought to be one in four of all people homeless in Ireland.

The accommodation crisis plays a significant part in suicide and mental health. People probably noted the recent RTÉ documentary, which is having a profound impact. We cannot look at accommodation in isolation from the social determinants and outcomes of our community. Accommodation is significant in the life and well-being of our community across Ireland.

We welcome the caravan loan scheme due for 2024 and recognise the hard work done. The Department confirmed earlier this week that a review of the scheme would be conducted in 2024, giving some reassurance to the national and local organisations who continue to raise concerns about the pace needed to meet the demand. Concerns include the process locally of designation of loans by county. Gathering data on the number of applications and refusals might give a more accurate reflection of need. Rather than providing culturally appropriate Traveller accommodation, some local authorities are advising Travellers to apply for an already extremely oversubscribed caravan loan scheme, even in cases where there is a failure to provide Traveller accommodation, the availability of which is a prerequisite to application.

We acknowledge the positive work being done by several local authorities. The committee will probably go into further discussion later in this process. We welcome this and will continue to support those efforts. However, it is important to note that these local authorities are in a minority, with many showing complete indifference to Travellers in their area and others actively trying to stifle the possibility of any working relationship. We are aware of recent cases of particular concern where Traveller representatives and their allies who have fought hard for a seat at the table were met with active aggression. It is through these structures that my community must try to create change, but they have in some cases failed us.

The magnitude of the human cost cannot be overstated here. The importance of a home is most evident when people do not have one. So too with culturally appropriate provision of Traveller accommodation, lack of which leads to Travellers facing constant evictions, unable to treat chronic health conditions, children unable to attend school consistently and exacerbation of mental health issues. When a family is living by the side of the road, it is impossible to address other priority concerns.

It essential that an oversight body, such as the national Traveller accommodation authority recommended in the expert group report on Traveller accommodation, is tasked with driving delivery. We have in our submission contextualised the statistics and figures and given recommendations. My colleague, Jacinta Brack, and I are very happy to discuss any questions members have.

I thank Bernard for his opening statement. I thought there would be more kick in it. He is being politically correct, to an extent. I know where he is coming from. Many years ago I sat on the Travellers consultative committee on Cork County Council. A very large number of Travellers sat on the committee, were very vocal and went on strike one time in protest. It shows powers. I see frustration from Traveller representatives. We have spoken on housing and the caravan loan scheme, which I think is totally inadequate. An issue is the lack of one-to-one engagement with people on sites, whether on the side of the road or living in a housing estate. I am lucky. Deputy Stanton is in the same town as me and we have a lot of settled Travellers in Midleton living in houses and also in caravans and they are exemplary, absolutely amazing. One of the lads cuts my hair. He does not do great at it, but, seriously, people do not realise the value the Traveller community brings to communities and to society.

I discussed before the Traveller loan scheme and how expensive it is to get a mobile home. I was asking if, thinking outside the box, people would be interested in getting the likes of pods. I have seen pods that are massive two-bedroom domes, fully serviced and probably with a longer lifespan than a caravan or mobile home. Are Travellers open to something different? I was reading correspondence from Cork City Council on another site in the city. I have no words for the red tape, Part 8 planning and complications involved when trying to get something done.

I watched that programme last Monday night. Bernard's statement mentioned the number of suicides in Traveller families.

It is absolutely frightening. It is horrible. I have said it. I am a former spokesperson on mental health. I lost two of my own brothers to suicide. I know what it is like. To put people, and a lot of them are very young, in that position because of the lack of a basic right is a shame on any government and on any policy. I get very frustrated with this and the Chair would know this. There is so much potential and so much that can be done for the Travelling community but we seem to be blocked at every angle. I am very frank as the Chair will tell you. I can walk into a halting site in one area but I cannot walk into one in another area, you know this type of way that one finds resistance as well. How do we break down those barriers and basically speak in plain English? None of the fancy stuff any more and say, "Right, we will give you a list. This is what we think. What do you think of it?" and open up the engagement.

I am very interested in long-term accommodation. Buying a second-hand mobile home for an extortionate cost, and the rules are shocking, is jobs for the boys, in my opinion. One can only buy off one person. There is no bartering and no competition so obviously there is no chance the cost will come down and no guarantee the quality will be that good. Would the Traveller community be open to thinking outside the box and looking at a more sustained model, such as modular homes, versus the caravan? I feel they are better quality and are longer-term accommodation. I am trying to get my head around what we can do quickly and properly and that suits the families. I feel like it is a talking shop here and we are not getting any positive results. When we try to do something we are being blocked whether it is red tape or whatever else. Would the Traveller community be willing to talk or look outside the box when it comes to alternative accommodation?

The caravan loan scheme is shockingly poor value for money. Do the witnesses agree with that?

Mr. Bernard Joyce

In terms of thinking outside the box around the caravan loan grant scheme, the first thing we can do is obviously send over the submission we made to the caravan loan grant scheme in terms of key recommendations. The key recommendations are in line with the National Traveller Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS, which talked about key changes required and also the long-term sustainability and standards of caravans, trailers and mobile homes. Looking at that it was very clear that it was certainly in everybody's interest to have the highest standards of a caravan mobile home that would last longer.

That brings us to the second question about modular homes. It is not a question of thinking outside the box. We have been saying this for years. Many people who can afford the quality and the standards, can purchase a modular home or high-standard mobile home. Unfortunately, the vast majority of Travellers cannot do that. We have been asking that the Department, under its review, take on board key recommendations which include the highest standard of long-term quality mobile homes. There is, in fact, a standard that is set in the UK that should be utilised in Ireland. I completely agree with what the Deputy said.

Did the Deputy have another question about relationships or sites?

If you go onto certain sites you meet hostility and stuff and how do we break down that barrier? The perfect example is when we were on the county council that time when the Irish Traveller Movement met with the Travellers and had that consultative committee. That forum was absolutely powerful and it got rid of all the fears, the suspicion and the aggression. Whether one is a policy maker or somebody within the local council who has to implement it we need to have that good working relationship and that trust. How do we build that?

Mr. Bernard Joyce

The Deputy mentioned earlier about a talking shop and that he does not want to see that but that at a local level is what seems to happen. When we go into somebody, and we have members of the wider community coming to Travellers who are living in absolutely appalling conditions, they can only expect that people will be angry. They can only expect frustration. They can only expect that the Travellers have been let down, abandoned for years and neglected. When you are going in there is a sense of balance between going into somebody's space and looking through a window at what their conditions are and then leaving. Unless we get to a stage where people have real and meaningful action and their standards of living are improved that will then bring a bit of an improvement in relationships. However, if they do not see that it is very much a tokenistic measure. That is what I hear from the community more times than not. There are so many people with goodwill who come in and talk but it does not translate into action. Then we go back out again two to three years later and the conditions the same families are living in have not improved or gotten any better. The first step is more about really having clear actions to ensure the standard of accommodation is improved and with that, relationships with the wider community will also improve.

Excellent, I thank Mr. Joyce.

It is not that Travellers do not want to have a relationship with the local authority or with TDs, it is just that the level of trust is not there due to continuous failures for Travellers in services. It is not that the community does not want those relationships - people do want them - but if they see generations before them being failed or constantly being let down that is where the building up of trust breaks away. Deputies, Senators and local politicians have a responsibility to go onto sites and reach into their local community as well. That is a very valid point and I thank the Deputy for his questions.

It is nice to meet Mr. Joyce again. I welcome him and thank him for his presentation and the work he is doing. The Irish Traveller Movement, ITM, had a review of the national Traveller accommodation programme published in July 2020 and I am not sure whether any progress has been made. I notice under the Act that each local authority has to prepare, adopt and implement a five-year rolling accommodation programme to meet the existing and projected accommodation needs of Travellers in their areas. Will Mr. Joyce give the committee his take on what is happening with respect to that? Are all local authorities producing, adopting and implementing a five-year rolling strategy? Chair, it is something the committee should maybe follow up with all of the local authorities and ask them to forward a copy of this particular strategy to the committee and how it is actually being implemented in each of the local authorities. I think 30 local authorities are involved.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

I thank the Deputy. I will pass it on to my colleague Ms Brack.

Ms Jacinta Brack

I thank the Deputy. Currently, the five-year Traveller accommodation programmes are under review. We do not have a report yet. I think the report is with the Department as of last December so we do not have insight yet as to the targets delivered through those programmes. The next programme is under way. What we do know, and I suppose some of this ties into Deputy Buckley's question, is that because we do not have a centralised plan for Travellers despite the Act being in place for 25 years there is no central oversight within the Department of housing with regard to national planning, budgeting, future growth, pipeline reports and planning, targets delivered, and progression on Traveller accommodation programmes, TAPS.

I refer to all of this in the context of a centralised, coherent view of what is happening around the country for Traveller accommodation. This has allowed this kind of rot, as it were, to continue to exist year after year, indefinitely, for 25 years. Much of the time, despite the very good efforts of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage with regard to oversight at the level of budgetary management, and a lot more besides, there is not a strategy. There is no strategic approach around Traveller accommodation nationally. Much of the time, as well, when we are looking to see what the situation is concerning fulfilment and other things, we have to set down these questions as parliamentary questions. This is the case sometimes even concerning trying to find out the population of the community and where Travellers are living. We must wait a year, because there is a lapse of the year from when the count is done. For example, we are getting the annual count of Traveller families now, but this count was undertaken in November 2022. There is not, therefore, a co-ordinated approach.

Having had parliamentary questions on our behalf in this regard, what we do know, and can see for the first time ever since the Act, having looked at the number of units planned for Travellers from 2016 to 2023, is there were only 892 such units. Of that total number of units planned nationwide across the local authorities, only 93 new units of Traveller-specific accommodation were planned. From 2019 to 2022, we know that only 44 units of Traveller-specific accommodation were delivered nationally. This is a major problem.

It is a particular problem given that the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, under the Housing for All strategy, sets a target every year. Such a target has definitely been set in the last three years, and the national budgets as well, around social housing delivery. Looking at this information, it is possible to calculate a pro rata number of units delivered by comparing the rate of Traveller accommodation supplied via local authority new builds in the period from 2019 to 2022. In 2021, 1,998 units were delivered. In the three-year period, almost 10,000 units of social housing accommodation were built throughout all the local authority areas, while, for the same period, only 44 units were built for Travellers.

There is, therefore, definitely a lack of ambition. There is a lack of ambition at local level. There is also a lack of delivery, a lack of oversight, a lack of monitoring and structural problems. These impediments range across everything, from the LTACCs, as the Deputy mentioned, to the planning structures. Part 8 is also a problem. With regard to the moratorium in this regard to Part 8 to accelerate social housing delivery, introduced by the Minister last January, we have been unable to find one single council that has used this Part 8 exemption to deliver on Traveller accommodation. We would be very keen for this committee to have a future view of this aspect or how it might be assessed. No targeted approach was addressed by the Minister at the time in the circular communicated to local authorities on Traveller-specific accommodation within this context, but we would assume that the local authorities themselves would want to accelerate Traveller accommodation even in mixed housing developments. We cannot see where this has happened.

The overall lack of a co-ordinated approach for Traveller accommodation has been evident since the report of the expert group. This was published and endorsed by the Department and the former Minister of State at the time, Deputy Damien English, and very clearly set out a plan with regard to governance, oversight, delivery and redressing some of the issues in this regard. As Mr. Joyce mentioned, at the centre of this was the development of a national Traveller accommodation authority. In the four years since that report was published, this has not come to pass, despite the good efforts of the national Traveller representatives who sit on the programme board appointed by the Minister. There is a stalemate as such.

Yet in that time, since 2019, the Housing Options for Our Ageing Population policy, with 44 strategic actions, was established, as was the national homeless action plan, which saw a committee established with a cross-departmental approach, in partnership with other Government Departments. There is no cross-government approach with regard to Traveller accommodation. The first youth homeless strategy was also developed in this time, with a national oversight committee. The national housing strategy for disabled people was launched. Additionally, there is the Housing Agency's own strategy, which has a remit around refugees and disabled people. It is also notable that an Irish Travellers accommodation strategy was developed in Northern Ireland.

What we are referring to here is that, yet again, Travellers have been left behind. Specifically, there has never been a strategic approach to the development and delivery of Traveller accommodation. There is no implementation plan at a national level and, as I said, no specific strategy, despite such strategies having been developed for other groups in that time.

In spite of all that, each local authority, under the Act, is required to prepare, adapt and implement a five-year rolling plan. This Act exists and it is the law of the land. To get down to the nitty-gritty of the concrete issues, are these plans being produced in each local authority area? Are they being rolled out? Are they being evaluated? One thing this committee could do almost straight away would be to contact each local authority and ask them to forward on their current plans, if possible, to allow us to see where these are at. I think we should also write to the Minister to ask him his plans to establish the national authority, which is what the witnesses are talking about. I suggest the committee should do this straightaway.

We may return to the issue of where the local authorities are with respect to their five-year rolling plans later. Turning to the caravan loan scheme, it appears to me that €40,000 is not enough at all. Second-hand trailers are being bought. We are all talking about energy conservation, the SEAI, etc., but nothing about this is involved in this context and so these caravans cost an awful lot of heat. There do not seem to be any standards in place in this regard. A sum of €40,000 is not enough.

Can the witnesses tell me about the payback situation? I have read that, at times, the accommodation becomes almost obsolete before this type of loan is paid back. What kind of pressure are people under to pay back the loan? Would we be better off moving to a grant situation, where people would get a grant, with no payback? The other option would be for these homes to be produced and delivered by the State to the families in need. This seems like it should be an easy kind of thing to do, but this present scheme seems to be very difficult to work and manage, expensive and not fit for purpose. This is from what I can see of it. Mr. Joyce and Ms Brack are on the ground, so perhaps they can give us an indication of what is happening. These are my two questions, the first on the local authorities' plans and the second on the caravan scheme and how it is working.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

The first question concerned the Traveller accommodation plan. Is that correct?

The rolling plan each local authority is supposed to have under the 1998 Act.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

My understanding is that a mid-term review was done two years back. Regarding the Traveller accommodation programme, which runs for five years - the Deputy is correct to say it is a five-year plan - it is stipulated under legislation, the Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act 1998, that each local authority must develop such a plan. However, when a plan is being developed, what matters is how it is put together. We can see that targets, in terms of the provision of accommodation, can be low estimates in respect of supply and demand. Even where these low estimates exist, in terms of building and construction, we can see that the delivery of Traveller accommodation is not coming onstream. It tends to move from one plan to another.

My understanding is that we are now in our fifth consecutive Traveller accommodation programme since 1998. In some areas, Traveller-specific accommodation has been identified and earmarked, but over 20 years the same provision of accommodation has not come on stream. It is always planned but not being developed. This is evident in areas across the country, such as in Dublin City Council and throughout County Dublin. Some areas, however, do not even have Traveller-specific accommodation identified. There is no plan in terms of assessment. In some areas, as well, the plans are becoming obsolete. They were not put together well, there is no oversight and, as Ms Brack referred to, there is no one national plan or no strategic approach.

Within the Irish Traveller movement, we find ourselves taking on the analysis in trying to break that down as opposed to the State or the Department doing it. When we break it down, it confirms the anecdotal evidence that the delivery of accommodation is not coming onstream. This goes back to the chronic overcrowding, the inadequacy of the provision of accommodation, the type of accommodation and group housing sites, and the curtailing of families into housing. People are not being given a choice.

The Deputy is involved in formal recognition, and we welcome that and thank him for his work in that regard. That has not, however, translated into a recognition of Traveller culture, what it looks like on the ground and how it applies in terms of the provision of culturally appropriate accommodation. I genuinely do not think everyone understands that or what it means. We do as a community, but it is not fully endorsed or accepted in the delivery and the commitments that are taking place. The next phase of the plans are being developed and we will look at harnessing that. Real and meaningful engagement and participation with the Traveller community is really important. It has to be resourced and led and there should be a national plan and oversight of that.

On the caravan loan grant scheme, the Deputy asked about its adequacy and the roll-out. It was initially a pilot and we were trying to engage on that. This year, it was rolled out nationally. In the roll-out, €2.65 million was allocated for 77 caravans in 2022, in nine pilot areas, but that has increased in 2023. There is an allocation for all the local authorities. In Meath, for example, there is an allocation for two caravans. In some areas, there is an allocation towards certain local authorities but a need for more than two, and that brings us to the total numbers regarding supply and demand against the request. The budget is not meeting the demand. The caravans being allocated are allocated for a certain sum and there is a loan. Moreover, the loan has to be paid back, but we are absolutely in agreement that there is a need for something other than a loan. It would make much more sense if there were a grant or a rental scheme, with caravans replaced over a period, but that is not the case at the moment. It has been argued for strongly by Traveller organisations, both local and national, and we feel that might be the best path forward to bring up the standards of people’s homes.

If you are living in a local authority house, that house is supplied in exchange for rent. Could the same not apply to a Traveller family living in a caravan, whereby the caravan would be supplied and they would pay rent relative to their income and so on, as is done with social housing?

Mr. Bernard Joyce

Obviously, social housing is means tested and people pay what are called differential rents. It is really important that a person's means be assessed in terms of what they can afford. I understand that, at the moment, there is some level of means testing within this, but we are also looking at the context whereby it should be means tested overall, between the rental for the bay and the rental for the caravan, and not added as an additional payment. The majority of Travellers are living under the poverty line, so having excessive costs associated with a home being replaced is not viable or conducive in the long term to any family. It would be important to ensure it was means tested and affordable and was done in conjunction with families, but at the moment that is not what we have. A scheme is being rolled out but we knew from the outset that it might not be fit for purpose.

Ms Jacinta Brack

I might add that with regard to some of the progression on the TAPs, the 2016 to 2023 figures take in the previous TAP and part of the current one, so with regard to the rate of delivery nationally, five times the rate of refurbishment units were planned within the TAPs and the rate of new units planning was corrosively low, with only 93 units planned by councils for that seven-year period. With regard to meeting targets and setting out the delivery of new builds, whether group housing schemes, halting sites or whatever, the original intention within those TAPs was so low in the first instance that it is tallying what was the production rate.

In respect of the planning of those, the rate of completion to final stage of new-unit projects shows that only two of the 28 projects planned nationally in those seven years were at the final planning stage. They are also trapped in the planning pipeline. Eleven councils of the 31 had not planned to supply any new Traveller units in the first instance, including two of the largest city and county councils, those in Limerick and south Dublin. The planning stage over all of the 297 projects, which represent only a small number of units, shows that at least 207 are still at the planning stage and just 12 are at the final account stage. It is a low baseline, therefore, but even when it gets into the pipeline of planning, it gets stuck there as well.

I thank Ms Brack. One of the purposes of this meeting is for us as a committee to hear this information the witnesses are delivering and to hear them answer the hard questions being put to them in order that we as a committee can use it as ammunition and try our best to ensure implementation.

I welcome the witnesses. Could those from the Irish Traveller Movement provide the committee with their impression and breakdown of each county? The logic of my question is that all of us could use our judgment politically, through councillor networks and colleagues we have, as to how to use that information. If each of us members had the information for our regions, we might be fit to see about getting the questions asked at those authorities and we would at least be informed as to what was going on. Detailed documents would not need to go into the public domain in raw form. They would be just for us to use in our dealings on the matter.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

We have two national accommodation policy officers, who support national Traveller accommodation consultative committee. Part of that involves working our members and the community in the consultation dialogue. As for the breakdown the Senator is seeking, I would say that is a question for the Department because it has a role and function in ensuring the information is up to date and readily available and indicates what local authorities are providing, given it funds each local authority to provide Traveller accommodation.

We get statistics and figures and we try to break them down and analyse them. We can give the committee the briefings and information that will help it to ask the appropriate questions in its further dealings.

What Mr. Joyce is offering would be certainly helpful. It just occurred to me that apart from the Department briefings there is nothing to prevent us, through the secretariat, asking the relevant questions of the Department.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

Absolutely.

I ask the Cathaoirleach that we do this. It would be very interesting if we were able to sit down with a folio, a folder or an information sheet with great detail on each authority, as the witnesses perceive each authority's performance and its implementation of targets. If we had this, nothing would prevent us cross-referencing it with what the Department is saying, if we so wished. Mr Joyce is right that this has to happen.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

Yes.

We cannot accuse people in the wrong. If we had the perspective of the witnesses on each county, we could make good use of it. We would be professional in its use and it would not be for public consultation until the witnesses would wish it to be.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

Yes.

Ms Jacinta Brack

The Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission and the Office of the Planning Regulator have both conducted national reports on the equality reviews of local authorities vis-à-vis the delivery of Traveller accommodation. Perhaps this is already in the committee's programme of work. It might be something the committee would look at to see further evidence of research.

Ms Brack thinks we would see detail in it.

Ms Jacinta Brack

The committee would see a lot of detail there.

Anything the witnesses decide to provide in order that we have their perspective would be helpful.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

We would be very happy to do this.

Mr. Joyce and Ms Brack could liaise with the secretariat and the Cathaoirleach with a view to getting us this information. It would be useful. Nobody would use it ridiculously.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

The other side of this is that the committee can have all the documentation and written evidence but-----

We have to get the action of course.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

-----if it goes on site it can see how appalling the accommodation is.

I could look at the counties in my region and see what they say officially to us and what the perspective of the witnesses is on them. It would provide a very interesting contrast.

Deputy Buckley raised a point on modular homes. There is great underuse of modular homes in this country. I met the then Minister of State, Deputy English, whom the witnesses referenced earlier, to visit modular home production sites in Cavan when he was on a tour of the county. There was one in Stradone. The homes are beautiful. They are of the highest quality. They can be airlifted, for want of a better terminology, and placed on a site. They are instantly ready. They are much better in my view with regard to quickness and immediate need. We should campaign for them.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

Nobody is disputing this. The question is with the Department. This is something that Traveller organisations have been asking for and advocating on. There is no shortage of advocacy campaigns and asks. We can provide further documentation on this.

It was part of the response to the Ukrainian refugee crisis, and a crisis it was, but that is not the brief of the committee. Of course, this crisis impinges on every other need. Modular homes were a big part of the response to this. If they were good enough to respond to that crisis, why not respond to this crisis with modular homes?

A number of the questions asked by Deputy Stanton regarding reviews, access and the monitoring process from the Department's perspective have been answered. I take these as they are. It will be important that we get to see the new rolling programme and how it is proposed that it be activated. We have oriented the committee in a wonderful way since it came into existence. We have taken general arguments, and the philosophical and sociological arguments, as given and we have started to hone in on what is actually happening. This is a great development and it is how it should be. I take the questions as having been asked.

The big alarming news of the week was the programme "Patrick: A Young Traveller Lost". I did not see the programme but I heard reports, including on the excellent performance of our Cathaoirleach. The awful figures to come out of the programme were those relating to suicide, particularly of young males,. The programme showed how suicide impacts on almost every family. The figures are horrific, and it is right that the issue is linked to those of housing and education. This is a link that the witnesses need to keep making. On the other hand, our job is to in some way ensure that the response to it is not only aspirational. I ask the witnesses to comment on that.

It is very important to state that all the issues are interlinked. With regard to modular homes, it is down to a choice. Many members of the Traveller community would not chose them and it is important that we remember this today. It is down to personal choice. When we speak about homes-----

I apologies for interrupting but if people could see them. I was astonished. When I went and saw the show houses they were extraordinary.

They are like chalets. They have a different name but they are very similar to some Traveller accommodation. Some of our community choose to live in a trailer or in a house.

We need to be mindful when we speak about homes that we automatically think about a house. For many Travellers, it happens to be a trailer.

With regard to some of the points on implementation, before we move off them, the committee has met numerous times in private session. We have written to the Department looking for updates on where we are with the 84 recommendations that were in our previous report. I want to have this on the public record at today's meeting. Every member of the committee is very frustrated about the lack of implementation. It is important that we put this on the record. We have written to the relevant Departments on the five subjects, including mental health, that we covered at our previous committee. It is important to say this.

I thank the witnesses for their presentation. We face great challenges. If plans and strategies on their own were the solution we would not be here today because we have had plenty of them over the years. However, when we meet Travellers, they do not have houses, accommodation or trailers. They do not have a decent place to live. This is a major challenge. I deal with many people from the Traveller community. Some are second-generation in housing estates. They want a house in a housing estate. In Galway 50% of the people who are homeless are Travellers. A very high number of people on the housing list are Travellers. We cannot build enough regular houses and we cannot do enough for the homeless. If this was all done, it would benefit a large cohort of Travellers in my constituency whose choice is to live in a mixed housing estate.

We must ramp that up so it is not one against the other. For those who choose, there have been some improvements but we are not nearly there. It is a crisis on the homeless side and some houses are being built but it is still way too slow. Galway City Council is way behind Galway County Council and I believe the position is similar across the country. I will discuss that in a minute.

The Traveller-specific accommodation scheme has been a total failure. The local authorities, collectively, do not have their hearts in it. As we all know, it is awful easy to find delays in the system. The committee could look for the establishment of a Traveller housing authority for Traveller-specific accommodation, which would then get on with it. There have been too many years of failure. I am interested in hearing the witnesses' response to that suggestion.

There are over 30 local authorities and trying to herd all of them into a proper space is like trying to herd mice. Some local authorities do much better than others and some do well for a period but then fall back. Reluctantly, because we do not like taking power away from local authorities, I will say they have failed at this job. Where they have failed in other spheres of activity, we have said that the system is not working. I am not sure, in terms of local authorities, if their hearts are in this. The committee should put this issue very high on our agenda and get on with it.

The caravan scheme should really be called the trailer scheme. In my view, when you try to get maximum impact for minimum disruption, you have a better chance of winning. I will outline what I believe we should demand. It should be standard for everybody who is afforded a trailer that they pay €500 and then €20 a week afterwards for seven years, and that should be it. I rang my local authority and it seems different local authorities take different amounts. I asked how much a certain constituent would have to pay and the authority seemed to indicate it would be €20 a week. That was the policy it was adopting using a very complicated formula. Having read the documentation, it was not clear to me how the amounts were calculated and the person I spoke to in the office was not clear about it either.

This is a loan scheme but not in a conventional sense. A payment of €500 followed by €20 per week will obviously not pay for a trailer. It should not pay for one and it is not meant to. The rent paid for a local authority house would not pay for the capital cost either. Let us say there would be a payment of €500 and then €20 a week for seven years and after that the person would not pay anything. The difference between a loan or grant - call it what you want - and the alternative of the local authority owning the caravan is the issue of maintenance and the responsibility for it. I am open on that question but I we could get bogged down if we started to make that jump. I am in a hurry, or at least my constituents are in a big hurry and they do not want any further delay. They will not tolerate us going into semantics if that delays things. We should make the scheme simple and standard. Ownership should be left as is and the amounts paid should be €500 followed by a weekly rent of €20 for seven years, after which there would be no further payment.

On objective criteria, a new trailer should be provided for everybody who needs one. That is the biggest issue. The terms are important but there are people sleeping in cold, damp and miserable conditions in caravans that are up to 20 years old. To be honest, if the State is messing around with conditions by leaving the scheme at 80 caravans or trailers a year - we should use the word "trailer" - where it might take five or ten years to get to all the people in the queue, it is no good. One great thing about doing constituency work is that when I am out at a halting site visiting the trailers, I meet real people. I see how they keep everything very neat and tidy but they are living in trailers that are totally beyond use. I say to myself that this is their situation, it is where they sleep, live and cook, and it is home for them. The most important part in remedying this is the "now".

I ask the witnesses to respond to my suggestion that the committee ask for objective need to be considered using criteria that would be quickly ascertained; that money would be provided to replace any trailer that was substandard, according to those criteria; and that the terms would be very clear - €500 and then €20 a week for no longer than seven years. I am not asking for an instant response but we need a quick response on this. I urge people to go for this approach and stick to it until we get it because it is one issue of accommodation that can be solved without a huge cost to the State.

In my constituency, we are getting about three or four trailers in Galway city, where the problem is greatest. I think we have about 30 families who need trailers. Four into 30 goes 7.5 times, using the old maths at any rate. That means people will be waiting another seven and a half years to get a trailer.

The Traveller organisations and the Department should research the cost of new trailers. I do not buy the argument that one-off trailer purchases would inflate the market. For research reasons, we could look at what other countries such as the UK paid. I would much prefer if Irish suppliers were used but if they are going to do us, then I would not use them. Inflation is the excuse being used for not doing this now. The amount of money it takes - the purchase price and the instalments - should be made available. We should put a three-year life cycle on second-hand trailers. It should be seven years minus the age of the new Traveller trailer being bought. If that was done, you would be coming back every two or three years. This should be done properly. I forgot to mention that it should be the price of a new trailer. I do not buy the argument made. We cannot wait on the basis that this might otherwise inflate the market. That is like saying we will not build any more houses, schools, modular classrooms or anything else because it might inflate the building market. That is always a risk but this scheme is not one that will shake the trees of the State.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

It is warming to hear the Deputy say that Travellers in his constituency come to him and deal with him and that he is on the ground and hears exactly what their issues are. In some ways, therefore, we do not have to restate them. He stated we have to act now and quickly. We have to do that right across the board in terms of the provision of accommodation and homes.

It must be done urgently. I have been involved in this area for 30 years. In all that time, I have been saying that the Traveller accommodation situation has been in crisis. Urgency has to be translated into action. If it is not, we are only talking to one another. Action is important.

The Deputy suggested some solutions. We will send to the committee the key recommendations that we made to the Department. What we are suggesting is not rocket science. The Deputy suggested applying a cap and costing it. The Department has done some costing work, but I would go further. For a family living in a caravan 365 days per year as opposed to for only a few weeks, the length of the caravan’s life will be very different. It needs to be kept in mind that that caravan will deteriorate more quickly whereas a caravan that is only used for summer holidays could last 20 years. This is why we are saying that the standards have to be high. We need to stop this nonsense of buying second-hand caravans. High-standard and high-quality manufactured homes should be bought from a supplier who can meet demand in Ireland. This is important. There should be no questions over the quality of what people are getting. That is the basis we should be working on. At the moment, though, we are working on a basis of what is available. Prices are also increasing. This approach needs to change. Doing so would lead to a quick turnaround. We have been highlighting this issue for a significant length of time. A caravan could last for 20 years, but it could be less depending on the family, costs, etc. I would just say-----

I am sorry, but Mr. Joyce might have misunderstood me. I said that some people had been living in 20-year-old caravans. My belief is that seven years is the maximum one would get.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

Yes.

I would not like anyone to think I was saying otherwise. I am not advocating for 20 years. I am sorry for interrupting Mr. Joyce. I have people who have been living in 20-year-old trailers that will not be replaced this year.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

That is shocking, and it is shocking that people have to live in substandard caravans and trailers. This is about acting quickly while also giving people choice, be that between a trailer, a mobile home or a modular home, and ensuring standards and quality. We must also ensure the home is new – no one disputes this – and that we stop the nonsense.

We fed into the review of caravan loans. We will send on our suggestions again, along with the information from the National Traveller MABS. The solutions are clear. We have been suggesting them. It is now a matter of them being taken on board by the Department as key recommendations.

We will be meeting the National Traveller MABS about the Traveller caravan loan scheme soon. Is Deputy Ó Cuív happy?

Our Vice-Chair has to be happy.

Ms Jacinta Brack

May I address Deputy Ó Cuív’s first question on the Traveller accommodation authority?

Ms Jacinta Brack

If I understood him correctly, his view was that an authority would be useful for the delivery of Traveller-specific accommodation.

Yes. In my knowledge of ordinary scheme housing, although I do not like using that term-----

Ms Jacinta Brack

Mixed development.

Yes. The Traveller accommodation authority would not have a role in respect of those local authority schemes. Rather, it would have a role in all Traveller-specific sites because those are the ones that are not being delivered. Local authority houses are being built – AHBs build many of them – but everyone on the housing list gets in there. That is how it happens in my constituency. Many Travellers, who represent a large proportion of the list, get housed that way. They grew up in houses and so on, so that is fine and it is their choice. I am not speaking about the authority being involved in that regard, though, as it would be complex. Rather, I am speaking about the area where we are not delivering, that being, Traveller-specific sites. That is where the planning difficulties arise.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

I should have said that I welcomed Deputy Ó Cuív’s comment about the committee fully supporting the development of a national Traveller accommodation authority. It would be fundamental in terms of reform of governance and oversight, but we are yet to see it. The Deputy’s commentary was important in terms of changing the direction that we want to go.

Ms Jacinta Brack

It would be part of that process under the work of the programme board. Senator O’Reilly mentioned this. The idea, which also covers what I believe are being described as new technology builds, including modular homes, is to take an assessment of the community based on a wide consultation. The expert group report recommended that there be an audit of Traveller need. If that happened at national level, it would feed into the types of development, housing and accommodation that could be built and also cover preferences in the community. One of the difficulties we face in terms of social housing is that Travellers were not included in the social housing needs assessment. That desktop exercise was done at local authority level and was obviously a flawed process. Travellers were included in assessments last year for the first time, but it will be a couple of years before all the information comes through. We need a clear picture of the number of Traveller families across the country who are in need and what their accommodation preferences are and then plan out from that, including in terms of future population growth. In just one year, there have been an additional 500 families in the system seeking different forms of accommodation. We cannot plan appropriately for that at any level where the supply and delivery of social housing and so on are concerned.

I thank Ms Brack for her answer and Deputy Ó Cuív for his question. Before I forget, I wish to say that the TAP is not fit for purpose. The Deputy’s point on that was important.

I thank our two guests for attending. I have been listening for the most part – I am new to this committee and am on a steep learning curve – but I have to say that the opening statements and submission were devastating in terms of the comprehensive failure by the Government and local authorities. I should not be as shocked as I am, but I am horrified. On the point that was just made, that our Traveller colleagues have effectively been excluded from policy – they are not included in Housing for All or annual targets – is devastating.

I have full faith in this committee and great respect for its members, who have been working on this issue for years, for example, Deputies Stanton and Ó Cuív and my party colleague, Deputy Buckley.

Our guests have spelled out well what needs to be done, but if they had one overall priority for us to focus on over the coming months and that they believed would make the most difference – realistically, this committee probably has less than a year before an election comes – what would it be?

I thank our guests for the power of their submissions and for what they have said at this meeting.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

I thank the Deputy for agreeing with us with regard to the chronic crisis in Traveller accommodation. The situation is dark, and it is a reality for children and women across this island. It has been embedded through no fault of the Travelling community. That goes without saying. As Deputy Ó Cuív said, it is about a commitment, drive and willingness to want to change and build provision of culturally appropriate accommodation as Travellers would like with regard to living their lives as Irish Travellers across this country.

If there is one ask, and there are many, we have to see reform in terms of a drive, a lead, oversight, monitoring and working. I cannot see how Travellers living in substandard, inhumane conditions on this island serves anybody's interests. I cannot see it. There are people without water, sanitation and electricity, who have children who want to go to school, have a hot shower, or be able to use a toilet. We know that the children themselves have stated how deeply they feel abandoned and neglected by the State. Every single indicator shows there is a systematic failure. We as Travellers are having time and again to state the obvious to every single person on this island, and that is hard. I find that quite difficult.

We want to see reform, oversight and a national Traveller accommodation authority. That is the ask. If this committee drove on that particular task, that would help in delivering change.

I agree with Mr. Joyce. The key word throughout all of this that keeps coming into my head is "accountability". There seems to be an absence of accountability, and Mr. Joyce's key ask is 100% justified and necessary. Again, I thank the witnesses and the Chair.

Would anybody else like to come back in? I have a few questions.

For the past three years, I have been in the Seanad and part of this committee. It has not been running for a year and a half. With regard to holding local authorities to account, the TAP, and listening to what Senator Gavan said about there possibly being no need for this, that maybe we should be focusing on a national Traveller housing authority, would it be worth our while looking at a piece of underpinning legislation that would hold local authorities to account and make them deliver for Travellers on the ground? If we were to do that, what would that piece of legislation look like? It is a very big question for now but it may be something to think about. It is important that the national accommodation workers in the Irish Traveller Movement are able to hold the State to account. One of the powers of this committee is to hold the State to account for the lack of delivery. That is one of my questions.

Do the witnesses, probably more so Mr. Joyce, believe accommodation and living conditions have got worse for Travellers since Carrickmines? Do the witnesses see that on the ground in the work of the Irish Traveller Movement? Which specific issue do the witnesses think is a priority for attention? I know they answered that for Senator Gavan around accommodation. Again, we have done a lot of work in private sessions, and there is frustration. In one sense for me, being a member of the Traveller community, it is actually lovely to see. I know that may sound a bit strange. Two weeks ago we had a meeting about having a social networking morning as a committee and a little bit of training around what Traveller culture is, and language, which is extremely important. Deputies Ó Cuív and Stanton said we needed a lot of action in this committee because it is pointless having a committee and just sitting around. That, for me, was very inspiring to see from colleagues here, and even with regard to visiting sites. It is not that we do not want to go out and visit the halting sites. Of course we do. I live in Labre Park three days a week. It is about not wasting time, and really looking for that implementation and access from the previous committee.

On the 84 recommendations by our committee, has there been, to the best of the witnesses' knowledge, any implementation? I know that the Irish Traveller Movement has an employee who works in employment within the Traveller community, and that was one of the recommendations from the committee, so that is a positive.

Ms Jacinta Brack

I will reply to the first question on the legislation. It is not really in our gift to answer that. We have used the phrase "Traveller accommodation authority" and that is what the expert group used as well. How it might look and be constructed and developed is something that is due to take consultation from the programme board, and Mr. Joyce is a member of that board.

I will give the Chair some precedents in other areas. We were looking for a separate entity, and that was envisaged by the expert group. It was akin to what the Housing Agency is so that Traveller accommodation might be established as a unit within the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. It would be staffed and come under the Housing Agency which, as the Chair knows, had formerly been under the Department as well. That independent authority, which was formerly the social housing body structures as well, came under that. There is also the model of the national directorate of Housing First that was based at the Housing Agency and, I think, is still based there at the moment. It is not that it had to be a complicated development and establishment of an actual authority. It is that there would be a coherent group of people resourced under the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, in whatever guise that takes with regard to staffing up, and that it would have central oversight of Traveller accommodation. The term for that was a "national Traveller accommodation authority". With regard to legislation, obviously that is a separate question around the accountability for local democracy. I assume that would be a much more challenging prospect into the future.

Going back to what Deputy Buckley was saying earlier, it just seems so challenging, and the political will at a local level is just not there. There is one challenge after another. Even if you get the permission for the redevelopment, and I would know this from Labre Park, you have then got the challenges of Part 8 as well.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

I agree with the commentary by Ms Brack. It is probably a broader piece with regard to civil society, democracy, transparency and accountability. I suppose that is why we are here in the Houses of the Oireachtas because transparency and accountability have to lie here and have to have some function. It also lies with the political establishment and the Government and Minister of the day.

There has to be a level of transparency and accountability to drive, deliver and show confidence in addressing a crisis in an amenable, constructive way with the community. That needs to happen.

On the Cathaoirleach's question on whether things have changed around Travellers since Carrickmines, when we talk to people on the ground and see people in horrendous living conditions, it is nearly becoming intergenerational. People are living in poor accommodation and that accommodation remains poor for generations. Things are not getting significantly better as regards overcrowding and homeless figures. You just have to look at the stats and figures. More people are looking for accommodation and demand has increased. That is an indictment in terms of where Travellers and the priorities of the State are. Unless the expert report and its key recommendations - I am a member of the expert group along with other key stakeholders - are carried out and implemented in full in the spirt in which they were intended, we will not see many changes. The national accommodation authority is the one strand as regards transparency, accountability and oversight.

We also have to get beyond that. It is very important there is a commitment at local level and that we are working on the same page with local authorities in ensuring accommodation is improved and targets and timelines are in place. We do not see that. We do not see, for example, a targeted measure stating how many Traveller families are without basic facilities in Ireland and that by year one, two or three, that will be eliminated and nobody on this island, regardless of their identity or culture, will be without water, electricity and sanitation. That is just a simple thing to do. We can then move into the bigger areas of provision of accommodation and redevelopments.

I am trying to call it out for what it is. The situation is actually significantly worse than it was. Some steps have been taken, but it is far worse.

Have any of the 84 recommendations been implemented?

Ms Jacinta Brack

It is a note of positivity that a number of positive outcomes came out of the committee's most recent report and, in fact, since the most recent NTRIS. As the Cathaoirleach knows, that strategy is currently being reviewed for the next stage. It is an interesting time. The employment measure was referenced, which was a very positive development. The promise in the programme for Government was a Traveller and Roma training, employment and enterprise plan. The Irish Traveller Movement has employed three staff in the area of apprenticeships for Travellers, as the Cathaoirleach knows, and in the area of looking at the first stage of the development of a Traveller employment strategy, as such.

Many other things have, let us say, been bolstered since the committee's report with regard to resourcing in the area of education and further education. Last year, a commitment of €5.9 million was made towards the Traveller sector with regard to investment in NTRIS. However, there are many gaps in that. Going forward into the new plan, there is no ring-fenced funding across each of the thematic areas. That is a job of work that will be reviewed by the Minister and his Department. In fact, the community has been consulted, as I said, on the roll-out and development of what the next stage will be.

I am very happy to provide an update on the report to the committee and to the Cathaoirleach to give them better insight into each of the areas and themes.

It is important we touch on some of the positives from the committee and the work we can collectively do. If no other member wishes to come back in, I will thank Ms Brack and Mr. Joyce for presenting to us. The committee knows these are not new issues and we do not have to recreate the wheel. The answers are there through the expert group, the committee, the national organisations and Travellers themselves. It is genuinely about implementation, which is what we are missing, and acting on those recommendations. I thank our guests so much for today.

Our next meeting will be on 7 December. We will have the Traveller Disability Group from Cork and the National Traveller Women's Forum next Thursday.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.06 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 7 December 2023.
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