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JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 28 Jan 2003

Vol. 1 No. 3

Irish Actors’ Equity Group: Presentation.

I welcome our visitors, Mrs. Kathleen Barrington president, Ms Rynagh O'Grady, Mr. Padraig Murray, Mr. Robert Carrickford, who are all members of the executive committee, and Ms Jane Boushell, group secretary. Before the presentation is made, I must go through the usual formality of reminding members that while they are covered by absolute privilege, this does not extend to those making submissions. Our guests should note that point. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name, or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Ms Jane Boushell to make the presentation.

Ms Jane Boushell

I thank the committee for agreeing to meet a deputation, it is much appreciated. I will begin with an outline of our position and my colleagues will expand using their personal experience as performing artists.

Irish Actors' Equity Group is a division within SIPTU, representing performing artists including actors, designers, dancers and stage managers in theatre, film and television. We are running a wide campaign at present, which followed from our 50th anniversary celebrations last year. We have been pursuing issues which we see as impacting particularly on our membership, focusing on trying to rectify what we perceive as injustices for artists or unequal treatment. We look to this committee and the Houses of the Oireachtas to try to deal in a different way with performing artists under the social welfare legislation. We believe there are good reasons for this.

The performing arts has long been recognised in this country as particularly important. However, this creative force in the country must be nurtured so that it can develop for the good of the entire nation. Using art can bring about public debate on issues that have been whispered about. This can lead to awareness and have positive benefits for society. Examples of this are plays such those by Marina Carr, which deal with abuse, those by Mark O'Rowe, which deal with drug addiction, and Tom Murphy's "Whistle in the Dark", which deals with violence. On television, "No Tears" told the story of hepatitis C and "Bloody Sunday" raised consciousness of the issues in Northern Ireland. Programmes of this sort have often been followed by debates on "Prime Time", which have sparked widespread public debate. Soap operas, which are sometimes seen as light entertainment, have tackled serious subjects such as pregnancy and abortion, as well as violence. "Rós na Rún" is now being used as part of the curriculum to help teach Irish to young people.

Regrettably, while there is a certain amount of lip service paid to society's cultural needs, the professional status of the performing artist has not been recognised by successive Governments. This is reflected particularly in their treatment with regard to social welfare. The years of training to become a professional actor are disregarded in a way that would never happen to graduates in another field. Most actors spend three to four years in their initial training. There is a highly regarded course at Trinity College which is recognised internationally as one of the top colleges training students in the performing arts.

Once qualified, however, the nature of work is sporadic and casual. Performing artists' work patterns tend to be a few weeks of employment then several weeks or months without it. Almost all jobs involve short-term contracts because plays have a set, short run. Many of our members have had difficulty in having this understood at a social welfare office when answering the question, "Why did you leave your last job?" It is sometimes difficult to explain that a play had a set run, had finished and that there was no option to stay on. This not only applies to lesser known actors, but also to some of Ireland's most famous faces. It is a feature of the profession in Ireland that they have to go to the social welfare office to sign on when a show finishes its run.

We want it recognised that performing artists are actively seeking work when they are attending auditions. The majority of actors obtain their work through agents, who constantly trawl for work on their behalf. Actors must pay for this service and, therefore, not alone are they seeking work, they are using their money to do it. When performing artists apply for social welfare, they frequently find their claims disallowed because the social welfare officer believes auditions are not the same as the interviews attended by those in other fields.

Performers who have qualified for a medical card find these are withdrawn once they obtain work, even if the period of work is as short as four or six weeks. They then have to re-apply and go through the process again and often experience difficulties in having a card re-issued. There are difficulties experienced in the payment of social welfare because actors are out of work quite often and are sometimes considered self-employed. This means they may not have full contributions in a year, which adds up by the time actors reach pensionable age. They can have difficulties qualifying for an old age pension.

Actors are, by nature, casual workers, a position that has been recognised for other groups such as dockers, who gained recognition following a High Court case in the late 1980s or early 1990s. We feel that this precedent can be used to make special arrangements to cover performing artists.

In other areas, we find that very few artists can achieve ownership of a home as lending institutions see them as high risk. Many, therefore, depend on rent allowance and any capping or alteration of this hits hard. Many of our members, who would have been well known faces in their younger days, live their last years and die in bedsits. We receive applications to our hardship fund to help provide funeral expenses, something that is extremely sad for people who have been seen as famous and at the top of their profession.

When actors or performing artists are not in employment, they still have to work to ensure their skills are kept completely fresh. Dancers have to dance for between three and six hours each day to ensure that they are constantly at their best. Actors have to work on voice and movement and they attend courses, run by private companies, that are not recognised by the social welfare authorities in the same way as FÁS courses.

Special social security arrangements have been made to help actors in other European countries such as France and Denmark and the Irish Actors Equity Group believes that similar arrangements should be introduced in Ireland - my colleague, Ms Barrington, will provide further information on this matter. Social welfare benefits should cover performers for a period of three years, while they learn their profession. A 15 week social insurance contribution, paid within the previous 18 months, should be sufficient to qualify for this. Documentation to prove that the people in question are looking for work, have attended auditions or have taken classes would also be needed. A card showing that one is a member of the Irish Actors Equity Group should be admissible as proof of status as a performing artist. There are strict criteria for membership of the group and only genuine members of the profession are accepted. It will not happen that a person will be able to walk in off the street and demand special social welfare arrangements as an actor or other performing artist.

The wider campaign we are pursuing involves a request that performing artists be assessed for tax over a three year period, to take account of the peaks and valleys which can occur - one may have a very good year in the middle of a couple of barren years. While I appreciate that tax matters do not fall under the remit of this committee, they are certainly part of the business of the House. Performing and interpretative artists should receive the same treatment as creative artists in relation to the earnings from their art, including an extension of the provision of social housing.

There is a benefit to society in making the changes we recommend. Modern performing artists have helped to put Ireland on the world map through their work in film, theatre, literature and music. They have received Oscars, BAFTAs and Golden Globe awards. The economic spin-off is that visitors, including film-makers, are attracted to the country. When a film is shot in Ireland, not only is employment given to performing artists, but general workers and craftspeople get extra work. Taxes and PRSI payments are made and the earnings from the film are spent in the community. The benefits in supporting the arts and artists are far greater than the perceived drawbacks. Calculations, using specific examples of films that have been produced in Ireland in recent years, demonstrate that the difference between the perceived loss of revenue through tax breaks is more than offset by receipts from PAYE, PRSI and general spending in the community. The Irish Actors Equity Group hopes, by addressing this committee, that its cause will be better understood by Members of the Oireachtas. We hope to gather support for change and we would welcome any assistance that can be given.

Members of the committee are free to ask questions of Ms Boushell and her colleagues.

I am embarrassed to be the first member to speak. I welcome the Irish Actors Equity Group to this meeting. It is nice to see the faces that have given so much pleasure to audiences over many years.

I have said before that the experiences of my constituents in Tallaght and throughout south west Dublin will inform my work as a new Deputy. Our visitors may be surprised to learn that there are many actors in Tallaght. I am interested in this presentation as a quite well-known actor - I am aware of the committee's restrictions so I will not name him - came to one of my clinics. As I have seven advice clinics each week, it happens quite often that I am surprised to learn of the scale of the problems being encountered by others, but I was astounded to hear the story of the actor in question. His problems as a young actor who has been on television and in a number of films relate directly to the presentation that has been made by Ms Boushell. I realised for the first time that people like him have great difficulties and are struggling to get by, despite the fact that they are in the public eye as performers. A person came to me on behalf of the young man last Saturday to make the same point, before I realised that this committee would be receiving this presentation today.

The Irish Actors Equity Group is one of many groups that has come to this committee to make known certain views about social welfare regulations. Many members from all parties could make a strong case in relation to these issues. I am happy to acknowledge that there are problems in this area, having encountered members of the profession to a limited extent in my clinic and again today. I was an ordinary person until last May and I am sure that members of the public do not understand the nature of the problems to which I refer. Perhaps a comparison couldbe made between the public's opinion ofpoliticians and its misguided views in relation to performing artists, but I will not mix the two issues. I will confine my remarks to supporting what Ms Boushell said. In recent months, I have made representations in relation to the case I encountered in my clinic.

I feel strongly about this matter as I feel the public perception of actors is incorrect. People feel that they drive around in limousines, spend their time going to premieres and have to sign many autographs, but the reality is quite different. This committee should take on board what has been said and accept that changes are needed. All Deputies hear about sad social welfare cases on a weekly basis. I thank the Irish Actors Equity Group for bringing this matter to the attention of the committee. We should represent our constituents on an individual basis as well as addressing the bigger picture. We have to overcome the fact that people will say that actors are better off than most people and do not deserve special treatment. The group before the committee, under the umbrella of SIPTU, has a role to play and today's presentation is an important part of that process. I hope we are not criticised in the Sunday Independent for dealing with this kind of business at committee level, as this is a serious issue for the actors and for my constituents. I am happy to support the thrust of what has been proposed.

Ms Kathleen Barrington

Deputy O'Connor mentioned that he encountered an individual in poor circumstances and I am sure that almost everybody around this table could tell a similar story. The Irish Actors Equity Group suggests that rather than having to deal with difficulties at the employment exchange, a directive should be given to officials so that they will know how to deal with actors. There should not be a need to approach one's local representative to ask that a special case be made. We hope that the justice of our case and the fact that we are in a special position will be acknowledged, just as it has been acknowledged by Deputy O'Connor. An imaginative leap was taken many years ago in relation to creative artists when the Government realised that they had a valuable contribution to make to society. The Irish Actors Equity Group argues that as interpretative artists, actors, dancers and musicians, we have an equal place in the country. Let us deal with this matter and allow them to explore their creativity. Clear directives should be issued to employment exchanges which explain that there is a special position for actors. As Ms Boushell has said, we can demonstrate that we are professionals by showing our equity card. Not just anybody can claim to be an actor, given that this verification exists.

We ask that actors be entitled to social welfare benefit and given a three year period in which to explore the possibility of becoming a full-time professional. If, at the end of that period, they have not been successful, relatively successful or able to make a living, the social welfare service should have the right to ask why they are in the profession.

Ms Boushell referred to other countries in which such provisions are made. In Denmark and France, all performers - including circus artists, who were the subject of recent headlines - are permitted this space. The time allows them to pursue their profession while certain conditions may be attached whereby, at intervals throughout the three years, performers are required to provide proof of auditions, training courses and interviews they have attended. They may also provide proof of the efforts made by agents on their behalf which show they are actively engaged in becoming full-time professionals. It would be enormously helpful if we succeeded in having that three year period provided and also if employment exchanges were informed that actors apply for social welfare benefit under certain conditions.

I never thought I would see actors attending a meeting of the Joint Committee on Social and Family Affairs, but I am delighted to see them here. I fight every single day for others like them; fishermen, farmers and people who work for Bord na Móna on a seasonal basis. I know exactly what the actors are experiencing. People think that everyone who appears on television is a millionaire, but that is not the case. When they see well known faces, they think their owners - like people who have been elected to the Dáil - have "made it".

Politicians are like actors. While they have to attend interviews every so often to try to get a contract to perform, we have to go before the people every four to five years. As a Member of the Dáil, I could apply for and qualify for a back to work scheme even though I am paid a very good salary because my job is not recognised as full-time employment due to general elections, to which I refer as "interview boards".

In my Mayo constituency, Westport enjoyed great spin-off business during the off-season as a result of the filming of "The Ballroom of Romance" and "The Field" there. Apartments and hotels were filled with film crew members and actors and local people were employed to do carpentry and build props. This is one of the reasons I am prompted to say that actors have been treated badly over the years by Governments.

Actors should not pay tax up to a certain limit because of the way they are employed. Creative artists have everything going for them, and rightly so, particularly in light of the nature of the business in which they are involved. Some of them do not make money while they are alive - it arrives when they are dead - and many do the work simply because they love it. While we are very critical of RTE at times, the broadcaster has done very good things. Some of its programmes and films over the years have competed with the best from elsewhere. As actors do not have full-time contracts, they depend on work on a television series or film to last. It is time serious consideration was given to this matter.

The equity card is very important, particularly as some criteria for qualification for benefits must be laid down. We cannot have just anybody telling social welfare services that they are an actor. There are many good actors out there that we have to deal with and judge every single day. Some of them would do well if they were on "Glenroe" and they would be well able to convince people they were in the profession. Having said that, the acting profession has not been treated fairly and, as the Fine Gael social and family affairs spokesman, I intend to make this a priority. I will put down a number of priority questions in the Dáil in an attempt to get the Minister and the Government to examine ways in which actors can be assisted.

The Government could speak with the profession and introduce a system. Actors are not catered for by FÁS, nor do they qualify for the back to work scheme, which is why there should be some arrangement to accommodate people who are on short-term contracts. There will always be people who will become millionaires, those in between and those who struggle and the time has come to do something for the acting profession, the organisation before us and those it represents.

There may be easy ways to assist, one of which might be the circulation of simple guidelines to employment exchanges by the Department instructing them that actors who show their equity cards should be treated differently. As Ms Barrington said, they are looking for a few years during which they would receive social welfare payments without having to go through what they do at present. They find the questions they are asked degrading and outrageous, given that they are trying to make a living. The position of actors is similar to that of the fishermen, seasonal workers such as those who work for Bord na Móna and farmers in my constituency who enjoy good times and bad. They are treated as if they are criminals because they cannot, in some cases, make a living. The time has come for the Government to provide a tax break or to recognise the work of actors in the Arts Bill, which is before the Houses. Perhaps a scheme could be established to provide actors with some form of freedom over the next number of years.

The profession has done itself and the country proud. While they have brought in a great deal of revenue, actors have not been given the recognition they deserve. Gabriel Byrne began his career on "Bracken" and we can see what he has gone on to do. Actors have done a wonderful job for this country and put it on the map. If more people were prepared to support them, we would have a better industry and less people looking for social welfare benefits. The profession made a good case today and it deserves to be supported. I have great sympathy for actors who I can now categorise with farmers, fishermen and those who work for Bord na Móna on a seasonal basis.

Like the other members, I welcome the delegation which is with us on behalf of performing artists. I am very impressed by the submission, which throws new light on the difficulties being experienced in their day-to-day work and in efforts to get recognition from the social welfare services.

As I perused the documentation provided, I was struck by things which had not crossed my mind or, perhaps, the minds of others. Security of tenure of a job often determines how the bank manager deals with a person and I note that it is difficult and often impossible for people in the profession to obtain a mortgage. The fact that a medical card is based on a 12 month period is difficult in a profession where work can disappear, forcing one to start over. These are day-to-day impediments which are placed in front of one as a professional. It is important that one continues to state one's profession.

I note that no recognition is given to actors - even though some of them may spend three or four years studying at Trinity College, for example, which has an internationally recognised acting school - whereas graduates from other professions receive recognition. This meeting has helped expose the difficulties actors are experiencing. The group can be assured of my support for its case.

Deputy Ring mentioned the importance of having an equity card. My uncle told me a funny story about sixpenny dances that were once held to raise funds to build a bowling alley in County Roscommon. Admission was free for musicians and cost sixpence for everyone else. The first 20 people who arrived claimed to be musicians. I am aware the acting profession is more streamlined than that. It is important there is an understanding of the variety involved in acting work.

Unlike interviews for employment, auditions are not regarded as a genuine means of seeking work. They cannot be interpreted as anything else. The proposal for social welfare cover to be extended to three years is realistic. The case of actors follows a number of other cases we dealt with in recent times. It is important that these issues are thrashed out before the committee and that one hears views from various parts of the country.

At a meeting with officials from the Department of Social and Family Affairs a few weeks ago, we had to explain the difficulty people had finding employment. One should not be expected to travel ten miles on a bicycle along a dangerous country road to seek employment. Some social welfare officers have been requesting evidence that people are seeking work when the closest available employment could be five, ten or 20 miles away. How could such people get to work if they do not have a car and there is no public transport? These are the practical impediments that confront people, some of whom will have a few acres of land and need a back-up income. When they cannot find one, the only alternative is social welfare. This may also apply to housewives.

The case of actors is special and they should possibly be made an even greater priority than other groups on the basis that the profession has brought significant benefits to the country, given people great pleasure and enhanced our reputation. I support our guests' case and hope the committee will decide to ask the Minister and his officials to produce a template which would address the inequities actors experience.

I welcome our friends to discuss this issue which is serious for them and for the nation. If actors are not supported, it could easily result in unnecessary fallout. However, if people were to receive the necessary funds, they would be able to remain in the business and avoid becoming totally dysfunctional. I am fortunate enough to live near the Tyrone Guthrie centre and, while I am not as deeply involved with actors as I once was - I spend much more time away from home - I built up a good relationship with several of them over the years. They appreciated the availability of the centre at minimal cost to get through some of their difficult periods and replenish themselves.

Patrick Kavanagh, who was despised while he was alive but was to become one of the greatest persons ever to emerge from County Monaghan and in many ways the nation, comes to mind. I will support my colleague and party spokesperson, Deputy Ring, in respect of this issue. While listening to him cover matters such as fishing and farming, I wondered how difficult it is to become an equity member? Perhaps the group could give him an equity card as he is one of the best actors in the House.

I had better move to protect my colleague.

This is a matter not only for the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, but also the Minister for Finance because financial and tax issues are involved. Several times during discussions on this matter in the House we raised the difficulty presented by the tendency of some social welfare officers to rigidly adhere to the guidelines handed down to them. One can also be fortunate in this respect. I became aware of this issue through my involvement with farmers and the farm assist scheme. There may be no problems with a social welfare officer in one area, while the officer in a neighbouring area may believe that all farmers, regardless of their circumstances, are millionaires. I understand, therefore, the problem faced by actors. We will try to encourage the Minister for Social and Family Affairs and the Minister for Finance to accept the solid case put forward today and try to ensure that sufficient funds are given to the Minister for Social and Family Affairs to minimise actors' difficulties.

I welcome the presentation, which brings home to one the casual nature of acting and the performing arts. As a former chairman of Garter Lane arts centre in Waterford, a position I held for several years, I am fully aware of the problem. I also have a nephew doing stage management with Red Kettle and a few other companies that are touring the country. My sister still asks him when he will get a job. I fully appreciate the circumstances described.

The arts certainly have a casual nature. We need to examine what is happening in France and Denmark to find ways to favour people involved in the arts, particularly acting. Social welfare officers should be able to use common sense and leeway when people are doing auditions and give them credit for doing so. The Department should examine the practice of cutting off people's medical cards when they are in employment for several weeks during rehearsals for the staging of a show. I fully support the submission and hope we can be successful in getting change from the Department and the Department of Finance.

I welcome the delegates. It is a pleasure to be in the same room as Mr. Carrickford, who has given us many hours of pleasure down the years on television. This issue is new to me. I was not aware that actors have to go through such rigours and I am sure the general populace does not realise this is the case. I support the comments of my colleagues and will give any support I can.

I welcome the presentation, to which I listened carefully. I also agree with many of the comments of my colleagues. A special case should be made for actors. If young people are to be encouraged to join the acting profession and if it is to have a future, it will need support.

As Chairman, I am glad of the opportunity to welcome the members of the Irish Actors' Equity Group on behalf of my colleagues.

The first thing I wish to do is dispel the myth surrounding the profession. There is a perception that everybody is doing well. I also come from a profession that suffers from the same syndrome. The top 10% in my profession might be doing extremely well, 40% just about survive and the other 50% are struggling. Perhaps the percentages are different in our guests' profession, but it is easy for it to become a media-led view that everybody is very well off and it is all glamour and glitz.

I know from recent discussions that rent allowance restrictions have had a significant impact on those in the acting profession. As Deputy Finneran said, many actors do not have the necessary job security required by financial institutions in order to obtain a mortgage. The insecure nature of the profession means that income is not guaranteed. I believe that the use of income averaging is the way forward. It is permitted in other professions, such as farming, so why can it not apply to the acting profession? It evens out the flow of income when a good year is followed by two disastrous years.

I know Mary McEvoy well as she comes from my area. Robert Carrickford will be familiar with her. I am delighted to see him here. Some 40 years ago, when he was a young actor he visited my village in Westmeath and I can remember some of the shows in which he performed.

Another area of concern is that of medical cards. The latter become particularly important as people get older and provide some kind of support in case of illness. My colleagues, Deputies Ring and Finneran, have spoken in the past month about the fact that officials in the Department of Social and Family Affairs will have to recognise the efforts that are made to secure employment. The efforts of actors to gain work by attending auditions should be acceptable to them. Ongoing training, which is part of the profession, should be specifically acknowledged. The short-term nature of the work in regard to plays and so on will have to be recognised. We all know that special cases have been made in regard to various professions and other categories of employees, so we hope to be in a position to advance the cause of actors.

Later today, my colleagues will be focusing on the anomalies in the social welfare code. Following this presentation, we will send a letter to the Minister for Social and Family Affairs giving the views of the speakers and Members, who are representative of all parties. Although she is busy, she will hopefully have an opportunity to deal with some to the points that have been made. If it is possible we may also make representations to the Department of Finance, if the committee so desires.

There is an opportunity now for additional comments from the delegation. It has been evident that Members have been glad to meet them and learn the nature of their work and the difficulties they encounter.

Mr. Robert Carrickford

Gentlemen and ladies, you have ruined my opening act. I have been in the union for 40 years and for all that time I have been thumping out to the newspapers that nobody listens and the Government does not take us seriously. You have ruined that. I am sure everybody in the delegation is as flabbergasted as I am by the fact that the committee listened, took in what was said and responded in a very generous way. Whatever happens, I will always remember the fact that I came here today and, for the first time in 40 years, felt that somebody really listened to me.

In the past I have sat and talked with Ministers who then left saying they had to go to the House. An official would then explain that the Minister was very busy and I could go home. That is the truth of the matter. I came here today with the thought "here we go again". I did not say it to my colleagues because they probably would not have let me come. As I listened to the previous speakers, I got a funny feeling that we might get a hearing on this occasion.

I thank the committee on my own behalf and on that of my colleagues. Whatever way it goes from now on, we are thankful for the hearing and understanding we received today. Our secretary, Ms Boushell, will always be at the end of a phone if there is anything that the committee wishes to know. The same is true for our president, Kathleen Barrington, or indeed, any member of our executive committee. We hope we can give members the support we feel has been given us.

Ms Lynagh O’Grady

I would also like to thank the committee. I am hugely encouraged by the positive response we received and the depth of understanding of what we said.

I wish to elaborate on one area because we covered quite a number of issues. The nature of how we work, the actual process of our creative input, is very particular. That is one of the areas that people have huge problems understanding. It is not a nine to five job. Even if one goes to rehearsals at 10 a.m. and is due to finish at 6 p.m., the process involves an ongoing organic development which may keep one working through all hours of the day and night.

The objective conditions need to be created where the people we represent can develop, grow and flourish. We would like to make the kind of contribution we believe we have already made, but in a much greater way. We have to be nurtured in some way. We have reached a crisis situation and the point made about people leaving the industry and the country and not being able to sustain themselves is very pertinent. There is a strong feeling among our fellow actors and performers of not being appreciated or of not having any worth. I feel hugely encouraged that the committee is going to take a stand for us.

Mr. Padraig Murray

I echo the comments of my colleagues. I thank the committee members for their understanding of our current plight. I know there are all sorts of groups claiming they are a special case, but we are not talking about a huge number of people. At any given time there are approximately 1,500 people on the books of Irish Actors Equity, 80% of whom can be unemployed. That is the nature of the work, work for which people train for three years at a minimum.

Last week, as part of Irish Actors Equity, I spoke to final year students in Trinity who wanted to know about the organisation, agents and the job of an actor. I was talking to them with another agent from town and we let them know that there will be long periods of unemployment in the job they are taking up. It is a very hard job and it is tough when one is out of work because this is when one works hardest. This can include looking for work, hounding one's agent to look for work and keeping one's tools sharpened, namely the body and voice. That is very important and has to be done. It is more important for the actor to be nurtured when he is unemployed that when he is employed.

I thank the committee for its understanding and for what it has agreed to do. I appreciate it, as do we all.

Ms Boushell

I have a couple of points which I think might be of use to the committee members when they speak to the Minister and their other colleagues. The loss of funding to the arts equates directly to a loss of jobs. It is not as visible as a factory closing down, but it is the same because it means people being unemployed for periods during which they would have had work. This means a loss of tax and other forms of revenue. It is important to realise it is the same as putting any other category of worker out of employment.

Mr. Murray mentioned that we have about 15,000 members on our books, only four of which have full-time, permanent employment. That says everything about the nature of the job. I add my voice to the appreciation expressed by my colleagues for the members' comments and commitment. We are available at any time to back up what we have said with more statistics and information and to meet any of the members' colleagues who want a further presentation.

I thank all the delegates on behalf of the committee for a very informative presentation and for taking the time to attend. The members have agreed on a course of action involving the Minister for Social and Family Affairs. We will furnish her with the delegates' submissions together with a transcript of the full proceedings. We will also try to make contact with the Department of Finance. Obviously, we will then request the Minister for Social and Family Affairs to attend the committee with her officials to try to deal with some of the more pressing matters that have been outlined by the delegates today.

The joint committee went into private session and adjourned at 3.45 p.m. sine die .

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