JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 20 May 2003

Vol. 1 No. 8

Young Social Innovators Award: Presentation.

Chairman

It is my pleasant duty to welcome the students of St. Louis High School, Rathmines, the winners of the Combat Poverty Agency prize at the Young Social Innovators competition awards 2003. We have with us today four of the students involved who, on behalf of the extended group, will make the presentation. I am delighted to welcome Ms Ita Dagger, Ms Aisling McCabe, Ms Shauna Mahony and Ms Sarah Walsh who will present the project entitled Reachinge Out to Older People, the Links Effect.

I will break with normal protocol to name the rest of the project team who are in the public gallery today: Ms Sarah Byrne, Ms Serena Pillay, Ms Aoife Carolan, Ms Lisa Essuman, Ms Egle Kilikeviciute, Ms Anna Sajid, Ms Claire Conway, Ms Jessie Gurr, Ms Niamh Stephens, Ms Sarah Brazil and Ms Ellen Tobin-Wolfe. With them are Ms Eilis Humphries, principal of St Louis High School, and Ms Olivia Dolan and Ms Annette O'Brien, both teachers at the school. Also present is Ms Fidelma Joyce from the Combat Poverty Agency who visits us on a regular basis.

I remind visitors and particularly members to switch off their mobile phones if they have not already done so. I advise that while the members of the committee have absolute privilege the same does not apply to those appearing before the committee. I ask Ms Dagger to begin the presentation.

Ms Ita Dagger

Before I begin, I thank you, Chairman, and the other members of the committee for giving us this opportunity to attend. This project began when a social partnership with our school and the CDU was founded. The CDU suggested that we take part in a new programme called the Young Social Innovators which gives transition year students a chance to choose a social issue or problem and to think of new innovations.

With the help of our teacher, Ms O'Brien, we set to work on choosing a topic which we thought would be interesting. As a group, we came up with the idea of doing a project on the older people in Rathmines. Our main aim was to create a link between our school and the older people in the Rathmines area as we felt that the school was somewhat isolated from the older people in the community. We also felt that there was a barrier dividing the older people and the youth of Rathmines, and we set out to break this barrier and to create a link.

We hoped to organise community activities for the older people in Rathmines such as coffee mornings. We felt that this would overcome any inhibitions or fears that we or the older people might have about each other. We began by going to our local community centre, St. Mary's, to meet the older people of Rathmines. This was extremely helpful as it immediately changed any stereotypes that we or the older people might have had. We also hoped to create a link between our school and the Rathmines information centre. This link was established quickly and proved invaluable to us. We were welcomed to the centre with open arms and were delighted to feel that our work was under way so quickly.

Our next aim was to highlight the link between older people and poverty. We felt it needed to be highlighted as people are not as aware of this as we would like. Another aim was to improve our organisational and communication skills, such as speaking to older people, organising coffee mornings etc.

Before getting to work, we divided ourselves into four groups to make the best use of the time available to us: the living alone group, the social events group, the research group and the story telling group. The living alone group investigated issues such as security, maintenance and accommodation. The social events group researched activities available to older people in the Rathmines area and looked at ways to improve these. The research group aimed to carry out questionnaires and surveys to find out the views of the older people in Rathmines. The story telling group collected information from older people, a method we felt was very effective as the older people enjoyed sharing their experiences with us. My team-mate, Aisling McCabe will later discuss the outcome of these groups and ideas.

Ms Shauna Mahony

As Ms Dagger said, not many people are aware that older people are a social group suffering from the effects of poverty. After investigating the position, it is easy to see why this is so. Older people do not have a voice in their communities and while the majority of them cannot lobby for change on their own behalf, there is no one to do it for them.

Older people have different needs. The majority of older people in Ireland today are in good health. Many are members of clubs, groups and active retirement associations in their communities. However, many older people in society age faster and physically deteriorate quicker, leading to isolation and poverty. Not enough is being done to help these people and to include them in the community.

Many older people who live alone suffer from depression due to illness, poverty and isolation. Poverty leads to unfair treatment and inequality for older people. Those whose income and resources are so inadequate as to preclude them from having an acceptable standard of living are said to be living in poverty. How can we expect older people not to live in poverty when a pension is the only income they receive. The pension increase in the budget is generally lower than the household income increase. The increase pensioners receive, while improving the situation, does not keep up with the increase in the cost of living.

We decided to contact the citizens' information service located in Rathmines information centre to discover exactly the benefits to which older people are entitled through the Department of Social and Family Affairs. We established that older people are entitled to various allowances and pensions from the age of 55 to 65. Over 70s can avail of free electricity or natural gas, free television licences, free phone line rental, free travel cards and free medical cards, but we do not feel this is enough. Poverty among older people does not just affect the over 70s. We would like these benefits to be offered to all pensioners, even those under 70. Such benefits are not enough to survive on in these transient times.

Although some services are available to older people in the community, such as community centres, meals on wheels and bingo, these are extremely under-resourced. We urgently need more funds for older people to provide services in the community so that they will become more involved. Many of the older people we questioned expressed an interest in joining a club if the resources were available to them in their locality. If they joined a local club, this would reduce loneliness and isolation and bring older people back into their communities.

We found that problems with property maintenance were common. Over 50% of older people we surveyed were unhappy with their accommodation and felt it did not meet their basic needs. The majority of older people felt that they could not properly repair their homes and that it was difficult to find someone trustworthy and inexpensive to do the work for them.

More money needs to be invested in resources for older people such as community centres and care groups so that they can maintain their independence for as long as possible. We are in favour of community care rather than institutionalised care.

One of the groups in our project discovered that fear of living alone and crime are major issues for older people. Over 70% of those interviewed were fearful for their safety. As the threat of mugging lurks over them, many said that they were afraid to leave their houses. This leads to loneliness and isolation which, in turn, is a major factor leading to poverty among older people.

Ms Aisling McCabe

Before we could come up with solutions to some of the problems faced by older people, we needed to research the topic further as our knowledge of it was insufficient. We gathered information in many different ways: by reading reports, looking at websites, asking the Garda to speak to us about security and interviewing people. Although we received a great deal of information from the Internet, our most important factual information came from reading reports, two of which were particularly interesting. The Years Ahead, a report published by the National Council on Ageing and Older People, was extremely useful in its recommendations in relation to social care. An unpublished report about the needs of older people, written by Mary Baker of the Rathmines Information Centre, was extremely useful, especially in collecting information on the financial circumstances of the people in the area. Some people felt uncomfortable sharing such personal information with teenagers.

The interview with the Garda provided information that came as a shock to us. Many older people are afraid to leave their houses as they fear they might be mugged. In some cases, such people do not leave their homes to go to mass or to the local shop. A great deal of hands-on information was acquired from our survey group, which consisted of Claire Conway, Jessie Gurr, Niamh Stephens, Sarah Walsh and Sarah Brazil. These students compiled a questionnaire, which was filled out when interviewing some of the older people in the Rathmines area. The questionnaire helped us to develop a feel for the worries of older people in Rathmines and to acquire an idea of some of the improvements they think should be made.

After the information had been gathered, we were able to develop solutions. We came up with five simple recommendations: a pension book covers scheme, an ongoing transition year programme, coffee mornings, personal alarms and an events organiser. We feel that the pension book covers scheme, which is simple, would be extremely effective. Pension books are kept safe by all pensioners because, as Ms Mahony said, they do not receive any other income. The telephone numbers of important and useful services such as doctors, meals on wheels and community centres should be easily accessible. If this phase of the scheme is successful, numbers of reputable service providers, such as electricians, could be included on the covers of pension books. This could be an important step in preventing older people from hiring certain service providers who may take advantage of their vulnerability.

We have also recommended the establishment of an ongoing link between our school and the local community centre, St. Mary's community centre in Rathmines. This would involve weekly visits and would create an ongoing relationship between younger and older people in the area. It would improve relations between the generations. A similar intention lies behind the recommendation that regular coffee mornings be held. Such events would create and develop young people's relationships with older people and other social groups in the Rathmines area. We have also recommended that personal alarms, similar to rape alarms, be provided for older people to ensure that they feel safe when they are on the streets. If everybody in the country were supplied with such an alarm, they would be able to live their lives as they wish. We have also recommended that someone be employed locally, on a part-time basis, to organise social events for older people in the Rathmines area. This would help such people to become involved in the community and to be introduced to people in similar circumstances.

Ms Sarah Walsh

As a result of this project, we have a greater awareness of the problems faced by older people in the community. We have learned how to work efficiently as a team. We all did an equal amount of work. The project has helped us to develop our organisation, research and inter-personal skills. Working in partnership with the Rathmines Information Centre helped us to develop confidence and a greater interest in community work. The project helped us to build effective links between the local community centres and the school. As St. Louis High School draws students from many different areas, it sometimes seems that the school is isolated from the community in which it is located. We now have a greater understanding of how other people in our community feel. We have improved relationships between ourselves and older people, as well as between the school and the community. The project helped us to grow within ourselves. We gained practical experience while taking part in it. It was a different form of learning and an interesting way to learn about the problems faced by other people.

It is sad that poverty and a lack of mobility are some of the worst problems faced by older people, who feel isolated as a result. As Ms Mahony said earlier, over 70% of those interviewed fear for their safety and believe that the threat of robbery or mugging is lurking. We found it shocking that many older people are afraid to leave their houses. We hope that we have given a voice to older people in the community as a result of this project. We were told by our teacher before we started the social innovators project that it would help us to explore ways of becoming involved in the community. We were told that our voices would be listened to, something that is proven by the fact that we are here today. We are glad to be able to share our suggestions for change with the committee. I thank the committee for this opportunity.

Chairman

I thank the delegation, which is the first to get a round of applause. Protocol is generally very strict here. It is another first to add to the list of notable achievements of the group. My colleagues will ask some questions about the research the group has carried out. Anyone who feels that a Deputy's query is in her area of knowledge can respond to it.

Deputy Ring

I welcome and congratulate this group from St. Louis High School. I congratulate the four students who made the presentation and everyone involved, including pupils and teachers. It was a wonderful initiative on the part of the school and I am sure all involved have learned a great deal from it. I have learned that the education system is working, as the presentation that was made today was excellent. The four students who contributed were excellent and I know that anyone else from the class would have done as good a job. I congratulate the delegation and I am delighted it is here today. We want our guests to relax and not to be nervous. The entire presentation was brilliant.

I am delighted the group chose to discuss older people as members of the committee feel very strongly about this issue. We have been listening in recent years to some of the points that have been made today. I am sure older people are delighted that young people are taking an interest in their problems. I am sure they were delighted to see the students and to be told that they were coming to this committee today. I compliment the group and wish it well. All members will agree it was an excellent presentation. I am delighted the members of the delegation are so young as it means that they will not be challenging us for seats in the future. I do not doubt that some of them will be on this side of the floor at some future stage.

I would like to ask one or two questions. It is clear from the presentation that elderly people are very worried about being isolated. They have a big fear of being attacked. Elderly people are always worried about their safety in their homes. Did the students meet people who were attacked or who had bad experiences? What were such people looking for to help them to be protected? An issue that relates to security is that of finances and the delegation was right to make its remarks in that regard. I am glad such an argument was made today as I have been saying it for the past two years. My colleagues on the other side of the House do not agree with me as they believe that elderly people are being well looked after.

There is no doubt that a great deal of poverty exists. People living in cities or towns have to pay for everything. There is a difference between rural poverty and urban poverty. People living in urban areas may need taxis to get around the city. They may have free travel passes, but public transport may be unsuitable for them in some cases. What do older people consider to be the most important issues? Are they more concerned about finances, safety at home or contact with the public? Would they like to see more contact with people, more community groups and more State agencies to check in on them to see how they are? Politicians should support the community groups that exist and help to establish groups to work with older people. As the delegation said, it is important that they are brought to centres for days out. I would be interested to hear the stories the students have been told. As we seem to forget about elderly people, I am pleased to see young people who are interested in them. I am pleased that the delegation has produced this excellent report. The judges had no difficulty in finding a winner. I compliment the delegates on the presentation of the great work and research which was carried out. I wish them well for the future.

Chairman

Deputy Ring had a number of questions, one of which related to the people interviewed in the course of the survey. Did anyone relate an experience they had of being attacked within the confines of their home? Did anyone tell of fears for their security.

Ms Dagger

We were amazed by one particular story. We were not told this by an older person, but by the gardaí who came to us. They described the number of robberies of older people in their homes in the Rathmines area. These people are tricked or, if aware, are too afraid to say anything. Community gardaí call around sometimes to older people for a cup of tea at which point they are told of what has happened, but that may be two or three weeks later when the information is of no use to anybody. One particular woman in Rathmines was talking to a person about electricity or plumbing while the person's colleague was supposedly upstairs examining what needed to be done. He was stealing her valuables while the other man distracted her. This is just one of the few stories we have heard along these lines. These are not just old tales we are hearing. These things are happening, but we are not aware of them. We should be made more aware.

Deputy Callanan

I thank the witnesses for a great presentation. I am delighted to see that they became involved in this type of work. It must have been great for the old people also. The delegation has heard many stories from elderly people who would love to talk to someone. It must be great for them to find that someone has come in to talk to them. I wish that this type of thing was pursued on a country-wide basis. At this point, the delegates must have built up a relationship with some of these elderly people and will return to talk to them again. It is not over with the survey, and that is a good thing.

It is a pet issue of mine that, as mentioned by the delegation, some older people would prefer community rather than residential care. I presume what the delegation means is that older people would prefer to stay at home for as long as possible. Does this come across very strongly? We feel it is the case in the country even among people who may be living in isolated areas. They like to live in the place they have lived all their lives. I assume we will all wish to do that when we grow older. I compliment the delegates and ask them to continue to keep up the links. The delegates have broken down barriers which should be broken down in every town. They have done a great job.

Chairman

Does anyone want to respond to Deputy Callanan's point that respondents indicated they would rather stay at home than go into institutional care? What is needed by these people to achieve that? What was the most pressing thing they wanted to stay in their own environment?

Ms Mahony

We discovered that older people would rather community care than live in a home. They expressed a great interest in joining local groups and taking part in their community again. We feel that they would be even more isolated by institutionalised care. They need to remain part of the community for as long as possible. That can be achieved by establishing groups and clubs for them.

Deputy S. Ryan

I compliment everybody concerned in this project. Not only the elderly in Rathmines, but the communities in which the delegates live can be proud of what they have done. It is a fantastic achievement.

In the context of the project, what experience did delegates gain in terms of team work etc? Do they feel they learned something? Apart from meeting elderly people attending community halls or bingo sessions, did delegates meet people who did not have the opportunity to get to the community halls? What was prohibiting these people from getting out to meet others? From their experiences of talking to elderly persons, what did the delegates find were the major shortcomings of their housing accommodation? Is there a problem with transportation which inhibits elderly persons travelling from their homes to community centres?

The recommendations which the delegation put forward are practical and would not cost much money to implement. The delegates can rest assured that my colleagues and I will use every mechanism available to us in the Oireachtas to put those recommendations forward. I thank them once again.

Ms McCabe

Personally, and on behalf of most of the girls, we learned that our voices can be heard and that we can be active in the community. It is not as hard as we all think it is. We would not be here today without the project, but we do not need a project to have our voices heard. It is simple and easier than we thought.

Chairman

Does anyone have anything to say about Deputy Ryan's question on housing? What inadequacies or deficits did people identify in their accommodation which they felt should be rectified? I am sure Deputy Ryan wishes to discover if there were stairs in dwellings, or were people living downstairs?

Deputy S. Ryan

Do they have walk-in showers?

Chairman

Were there issues for people with disabilities?

Ms Dagger

We found that there were stairs in a housing area which was set aside for older people. Perhaps the people were able for the stairs when they first moved in, but as they got older they deteriorated and were unable to use the stairs. We found also that the facilities now available were not there years ago. If a pipe was broken, it was not possible to simply get a plumber to fix it. Old people are still doing old fashioned things like putting a bucket under a leak. If there were someone around who could explain that they could have these problems fixed and that it would not take much to do so, older people would go ahead and have things done. Faulty cookers, which older people think they will be fine without, are very dangerous. We are back to the education question again. We must teach them about the ease of accessing the facilities which are available.

Deputy S. Ryan

What percentage of the people the delegation met were not able to go to community centres or to bingo?

Chairman

The Deputy is asking about lack of transport.

Ms Dagger

The community centre we visited provides a transport service. Wheelchair accessible minibuses, which are older people-friendly, collect people in the mornings. While the minibus services are available for community centres and bingo during the day, we would like to see evening time and weekend services provided also to make elderly people feel they have some social life again. Many people do not go out at the weekends unless it is with family. It would be good to have the facility there, regardless of whether they seek it.

Deputy Ring

The best recommendation in the report related to the pension book. I hope the group will follow up the matter with the Minister. It would be an excellent idea if the Department sponsored the inclusion in pension books of telephone numbers for local doctors, Garda stations, community groups and so forth, and would also brighten up pension books. What does the group plan to do in this respect? Will it make contact with the Minister?

Ms McCabe

We realise it would be expensive to introduce such a scheme at local level. It may be advisable to include national numbers which people could call to receive information on local Garda stations, doctors and so forth. We intend to write to the Minister outlining our idea.

Chairman

This is a novel idea. While it is correct to point out it may not be practical to include local information, the inclusion of a space in which vital telephone numbers, such as those of local Garda stations and doctors' surgeries, could be inserted would be useful. Like my colleagues, I am shocked that Deputy Ring did not come up with the proposal first as he spends considerable time trying to devise novel ideas to benefit his constituency, as Deputy Carty will confirm.

Did the group consider the possibility of starting a golden years or young at heart club for elderly people which could offer the services it outlined? These could provide regular live music or bingo and card games as well as an opportunity for people to meet and talk. Such services are vital, particularly in rural areas where people often live several miles from their nearest neighbour. It would require offering transport to many isolated elderly people who are unable to access public transport, even where it is available nearby because it does not accommodate people with a degree of disability.

Ms Walsh

We wanted to have regular story telling nights where elderly people could gather and have a cup or tea, discuss their past and get to know others better.

Ms Mahony

The old people in question intend to continue holding regular coffee mornings, perhaps once a month. Everyone involved is able to make friends and we also provide entertainment for them.

Chairman

Perhaps it should be given a name such as the golden years club.

Deputy Carty

I join my colleagues in welcoming the group. I would not expect less than this award from the pupils of St. Louis. I come from an area of County Mayo which has two St. Louis schools, Kiltimagh and Balla, both of which produce excellent students. I expect members of the group before us will be similarly successful. Is there significant sheltered housing in the Rathmines area? Are the elderly people attending the scheme natives of the area, that is, owner occupiers, or people who moved to Dublin 30 or 40 years ago and now living in rented accommodation in the area?

Ms McCabe

Our research shows there are three estates designated for older people, each of which has 15 houses. This means they accommodate, on average, about 30 people. In light of our finding that the older community makes up 12% of the population of Rathmines, the designated estates are clearly insufficient to meet their needs and many more are needed.

Deputy D. Wallace

Like my colleagues, I welcome members of the group and their colleagues and congratulate them on winning the Combat Poverty group's young social innovators award. It is a great credit to them and their teachers and parents that they took this initiative. I emphasise the importance of continuity, a concept mentioned in the findings. It is vital that this scheme, which the group showed the initiative to start, should continue.

The committee has encountered many of the issues raised earlier at other meetings. A large number of organisations, for instance, representatives of widows and widowers, have come before us to outline their complaints and views on how certain issues should be addressed.

Deputy Ring, who always complains, noted that much more needs to be done. While there have been major improvements and changes in recent years, we accept that much more needs to be done. We will take on board the group's views. I encourage its members to remain involved in society. They have learned something new, namely, the way in which elderly people try to cope.

The word "proud" is mentioned in the report. Some people do not want to receive meals on wheels or any other form of assistance. Perhaps they need nothing more than a house call. One cannot over-estimate the importance of this kind of communication in establishing links. We will take on board the group's points and try to continue to improve the situation.

My mother is 91 years of age and goes out on four days each week. She is collected by local people with an interest in the local community and brought to a club and various other places. A significant amount is being done in this area. From time to time, we are critical of young people. The group has done a good job in articulating the experiences of its members and their views on how we should address certain problems.

Deputy Connolly

I apologise for missing the presentation. I had been looking forward to it, but was called to a meeting of Independent Deputies to arrange our business for the coming week. I congratulate the group on winning the prestigious award for its social innovation project. School children's learning about life is often tied into academic matter and geared towards attaining points for the leaving certificate, which is the way school pupils are measured at school. An important part of school life, for which the teachers in these cases deserve to be complimented, involves carrying out social projects. I hope schemes such as this will become part of the examination process or will be awarded points as it is important that young people become aware of their communities.

I have no doubt the elderly people involved in the project were more than delighted to interact with these young people. Both groups will have gained from the experience, the young people more so than the older people. We should not lose sight of the fact that older people like to be valued. It is important that schools maintain social initiatives, for example, visiting older people in hospital or learning about the nature of services for people with disability as theygive young people a greater and richer understanding of what life is about. I congratulate the group.

Chairman

On behalf of my colleagues, I take this opportunity to compliment the students of St. Louis, whose contribution and project we found stimulating and worthwhile. This is an all-party committee which takes seriously matters such as services for older people. We will examine the conclusions and recommendations in the report and, I hope, pursue some of them. I am glad to note the group plans to contact the Minister, who has a good record for listening and will pay close attention to some of the issues raised in the presentation. Many of the proposals are extremely practical. Like Deputy Ring, I was struck by the proposal regarding the cover of the pension book, a novel and worthwhile idea.

The group has made a valuable contribution to the committee. The number of people we may invite each month is limited and we are delighted to have had this opportunity to hear today's presentation. The students of St. Louis have struck a major blow for young people, particularly school students. The project is outside normal school activity. I compliment them, their colleagues and teachers. They should be proud of their achievement in winning the young social innovators award. I also compliment the Combat Poverty Agency and Fidelma Joyce, who has made numerous presentations to the committee on various issues pertaining to poverty and the action required in address it, for sponsoring the award. We hope the students have gained from the project, and we have no doubt that is the case. We urge you to continue the work you have embarked upon. We compliment each of you for your tremendously well articulated presentation. At the end of the day, I think we were more nervous than you.

Ms Walsh

On behalf of the school and the group, I present the Chairman with a copy of our yearbook as a thank you.

Chairman

Thank you very much. We will see you outside if you want a group photograph with the committee members. We will break the normal rules and meet on the plinth. The group has broken all the protocols. Our superiors will be down on top of us like a ton of bricks. We have one more item to consider and we will meet the group outside when we are finished.

I thank the members for their co-operation. The meeting was very useful and we will learn something from it. As Deputy Ring said, there is no doubt that we were watching future politicians. For the benefit of Deputy Connolly and Senator Wilson, we have agreed a date for the next meeting - 17 June. The following one will be on 8 or 9 July, depending on circumstances. There will be meetings of the joint and select committees on the one day. We will meet the Minister in the joint committee meeting and discuss the Estimates in the select committee.

Deputy S. Ryan

What response are we getting in regard to the carers?

Chairman

It came in only last week.

Clerk to Committee

So far we have approximately 30 submissions and more are promised. They are coming from everywhere.

Chairman

I am sure Deputies Carty and Ring will ensure that there is a good rural response. I will leave you with this thought. Deputies Connolly, Ryan, Moynihan and Wallace and I will have to think about this. There are plenty of submissions from the west. It appears to be a worthwhile process. There will be a major task when we get them all in. That is when the job will really begin.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.35 p.m. until Tuesday, 17 June 2003.