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JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 6 Apr 2004

Immigrant Council of Ireland: Presentation.

We are to hear a presentation by the Immigrant Council of Ireland in the usual format. Sr. Stanislaus Kennedy is its chairperson, Ms Denise Charlton its chief executive officer and Hilkka Becker its legal consultant. They are very welcome.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members who wish to make a declaration regarding any matter being discussed may do so now or at the beginning of their contributions. They are also reminded that if there is any possibility of a conflict of interest, they should make a declaration now or at the start of their contributions.

The attention of visitors is drawn to the facts that, while members of the committee enjoy absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to them. While it is generally accepted that witnesses enjoy qualified privilege, the committee is not in a position to guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. This does not present any difficulty but the formula must be indicated.

I ask Sr. Kennedy to make her contribution. Colleagues will then have an opportunity to ask questions.

Sr. Stanislaus Kennedy

I thank the Chairman and members for hearing us today. As we are conscious that their time is limited, we will be as quick as we can. I will start by giving an overview and the overall recommendations, after which Ms Denise Charlton, the chief executive, will talk about more specific issues, and Ms Hilkka Becker will discuss the legislative and legal aspects.

Our position is that labour immigration to Ireland is a permanent reality. It is not a short-term phenomenon but here to stay, owing to several factors, including increasing globalisation, cheap travel, improved communications, demographic and economic issues and the inequality between the northern and southern hemispheres, all of which suggest that continuing flows of migrant workers to all of the more prosperous and developed countries, including Ireland, are likely. Ireland is now a country of ongoing labour immigration.

Despite the economic slowdown of recent months, there are clear indications that we will still enjoy economic growth and stakeholders such as employer representative bodies believe we will continue to attract and retain staff from abroad. We must accept that mass migration from any current EU member state, including Ireland, is effectively over because of better living standards, lower fertility rates and increasing age dependency. We know that immigration will not solve the problems but it is very clear that a managed immigration policy will help EU countries, including Ireland, to meet the problems arising from these factors.

Since 1996, Ireland has received 147,000 foreign immigrants. We have also seen a dramatic increase in the issuing of employment permits, with an increase of 600% since 1999. A very high proportion of labour migrants, 61%, were from central and eastern European states but 25% are from countries which will not be part of EU enlargement. Migrants come from all parts of the world and are employed in every sector, though there are more in certain fields such as horticulture, hotels, catering, medical, paramedic and unskilled work.

Ireland has very quickly moved from being an economy of high emigration to one of very high immigration. We have moved from being a sending to a receiving country. We were not prepared and did not plan for this. The ethical and social issues raised by those changes are new to us. We lack experience, the policy, legislative and supportive structures, and the organisation found in countries with a tradition of immigration. That is a disadvantage but we also have the great advantage that we can learn from the experience, mistakes and positive stories of other countries.

Ireland's immigration system reflects an earlier time when the country attracted few immigrants. It is still largely market-driven and does little to protect migrant workers and their families. Ireland still sees it as a temporary solution to labour problems, with a continued emphasis on prioritising EU countries, ignoring the growing number of non-EU workers. However, the facts clearly show that migration from other EU countries into Ireland is less than migration from outside the European Union.

We need to accept that Ireland has become a destination country for international migration but we also need to recognise that this is positive as it recognises our social and economic development. The rate of inward migration has grown to a level that is one of the highest in Europe and as high, or higher, than that in traditional destination countries such as Canada and the United States but our policy development has lagged way behind this trend and when policy lags behind, there are likely to be many problems.

No one Department has responsibility for immigration and immigrant issues, and there is little co-ordination between the six departments which provide services for immigrants who, with the voluntary sector, are poorly represented at any level. What we have is an ad hoc reactive response designed mainly to keep people out, rather than a coherent comprehensively managed response.

There has been little public debate on immigration. The No Racism committee has shown how frightening the situation is in regard to attitudes towards minority groups and immigrants. For example, it has shown that a high proportion of people believe the number of non-natives in the population is significant and that the proportion of those who work is small. This is not correct. It is also believed those who are working are not making a significant contribution to the economy. There is a perception that many asylum seekers are bogus and that non-working immigrants receive substantial benefits from the State. The committee points to the need to highlight the positive contribution made by immigrants and the need for effective policies to deal with immigration.

The Immigrant Council of Ireland believes Ireland urgently needs an immigration and immigrant policy. They are not the same but inter-related and it is important to distinguish between the two. An immigration policy has to do with who gets into the country while an immigrant policy has to do with how we treat people when they come here.

The Immigrant Council of Ireland respects the Government's right to manage and control Ireland's borders but it is important to remember that immigration policy can impact on immigrant policy. In order words, unless those admitted are seen as a welcome addition to society, this will affect the way we treat them when they come. What the Immigrant Council of Ireland is calling for is not an open door policy on immigration, neither is it an over-restrictive one but one that is effectively managed and comprehensive, one that adopts a strategic and long-term approach. When it comes to immigrant policy - how we treat people when they come here - they should be treated the same as the rest of us, as human beings with human rights and dignity; in order words, our immigrant policy should be rights based and proceed from a fair and transparent immigration and reception system to a comprehensive approach to integration that respects diversity within a framework of shared core values.

If we are to develop good immigration and immigrant policies, we need strong leadership that will build a strong popular consensus on immigration issues, that will involve all the key players in civil society, that will establish a framework of common values and provide clear policies and structures to support the specific needs of migrants and their families. We need strong leadership that will lead a public debate on immigration but we have nothing that remotely resembles real public debate. In fact, there is a deadly silence on the issue. The public debate on immigration must include a debate on diversity and the benefits immigrants bring to the economy. If we fail to do this and acknowledge the contribution of immigrants, we are fuelling resentment, racism and social exclusion. We also need courageous leadership that will introduce and set a clear anti-racism and anti-discrimination agenda which will include general awareness raising measures for the whole of society, paying particular attention to the workplace. We need strong leadership that will ensure we will have a clear, coherent, integrated and robust cross-departmental response to immigrants.

The Government's response is fragmented and uncoordinated and causes great suffering and pain for immigrants, of which there are many examples, the most recent of which has to do with accession state nationals currently in the asylum seeking process and residing in accommodation centres. Last Friday a letter was faxed by the Reception and Integration Agency of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform telling residents that they had to leave the asylum process, vacate the accommodation centre and present to the local community welfare officers for assistance. The community welfare officers in question were not aware of this policy and had been given no direction by the Department of Social and Family Affairs or the health boards. No information was issued by the Department of Social and Family Affairs on the eligibility of former asylum seekers from the accession countries for social welfare or rent allowances. Rent allowance is payable to applicants in rented accommodation. We are aware, as recently stated, that they have to be two years in residence to be eligible for social welfare. What will happen to those who received the letter last Friday when they are told they are out of the asylum seeking process?

This raises a number of issues: the lack of communication between Departments; the lack of co-ordination between Departments; the lack of clarity with regard to former asylum seekers after 1 May; the lack of a human rights based approach to the matter; the lack of understanding of the difficulties former asylum seekers will face in finding accommodation or work, and the lack of clarity with regard to accession state nationals who have been in the asylum process and applied for leave to remain on the basis that they have Irish born children. All of this highlights an uncoordinated and unclear immigration system about which we have real concerns.

Ms Hilkka Becker

Following on from what Sr. Kennedy has outlined, there are a number of legislative opportunities regarding immigration through the adoption of international conventions. There is a need to look at national legislation to consider the rights and entitlements of immigrants in addition to the control and management of migration. This opportunity could be addressed in the awaited immigration and residency legislation, the need for which was acknowledged by the Government as far back as 2001. The public consultation process entered into at the time has not yet led to the publication of draft legislation.

Recent legislation debated or proposed highlights a piecemeal approach to the issue of immigration and demonstrates the need for a long-term integrated strategic legislative approach. Particular concerns of the Immigrant Council of Ireland are that current immigration legislation focuses largely on the arrest, deportation and detention of immigrants but fails to set out their rights and entitlements. Also, the absence of an independent immigration appeals tribunal leads to the absence of an effective legal remedy where judicial review by the High Court is the only available avenue of redress. There is no disciplinary procedure through which institutional racism can be challenged. As I said, we are still awaiting the introduction of comprehensive immigration and residency legislation. The public consultation process conducted in 2001 needs to be supplemented to allow submissions to be updated and new interest groups to participate.

The recent announcement of a referendum on citizenship is also of concern to us as it is proposed for June, which leaves very little time for public debate and information. The proposal appears to be motivated by what is a distinct immigration issue. We believe it would take much more time than is envisaged to debate the issue in detail. Also, legislation has so far not been introduced to protect victims of trafficking and immigrants who are experiencing domestic violence. Following on from these concerns we have legislative recommendations which we believe should be taken as a basis for improving the protection of rights of immigrants and their families in the State. The first would be the ratification of the UN convention on the rights of migrant workers and their families which, among other matters, recognises the right to family unification of migrant workers and also protects those working in the shadow economy.

Changes in legislation introduced through the Employment Permits Act 2003 must not lead to a Europeans only policy in the granting of employment permits to employers. Family unification should be a legal right that should also extend to non-marital couples. Spouses and partners admitted on this basis should be granted an automatic right to enter employment. The Government should also progress the immigration and residency legislation promised in 2001 and incorporate the recommendations of interest groups and individuals focusing on rights and entitlements of immigrants as much as on admission rules and security considerations.

We believe the proposed referendum on citizenship should not proceed as part of the June 2004 elections without public consultation and debate. There should be significant time to be informed about the complex issues involved in the concept of citizenship and details of the proposed legislation should be published well in advance of any referendum and debate.

We have two more recommendations specifically in regard to legislation which we believe needs to be introduced. First, there should be an entitlement to leave to remain for persons who have been trafficked into the State, which should not be conditional on the willingness of the persons concerned to testify against the traffickers. In this regard, we call on the Government to ratify the UN convention trafficking protocol as soon as possible. Second, individuals who leave their spouses or partners because of domestic violence or abuse should be granted independent residency status which also allows them to enter employment as a matter of right. In this context, any future immigration legislation should provide for spouses and partners of persons settled in Ireland to acquire independent and indefinite leave to remain after a certain period.

The chief executive, Ms Denise Charlton, will continue with the presentation.

Ms Denise Charlton

I want to raise a number of issues which concern individuals presenting at our services as a result of existing policies. The Immigrant Council of Ireland is an independent non-governmental organisation working for immigrants in promoting their rights. Our services include promoting rights through the provision of information and advocacy. In our first year of operations we responded to over 3,000 individuals.

Following on from the presentations by Sr. Stan and Ms Becker, the whole issue of the temporary status of immigrants in Ireland is reflected in existing policies. The first matter of major concern to us is that of the employment permit and the fact that it is granted to the employer, not the employee. Through our services we are aware of a number of concerns resulting directly from this. Let me give some examples.

There is evidence of growing numbers of recruitment agencies which are providing fake permits in return for non-existent jobs or charging high fees for recruitment. Clearly, there are not enough resources for the Government inspectorate to ensure exploitation does not happen. It is also very difficult, if exploitation does happen, for the individuals concerned to access rights protection or take a case because it may result in the loss of the permit or employment. We are seeing this increasingly through our services. While obviously creating a legal challenge, dismissal leads to uncertain immigration status and can have serious implications for the individual concerned.

On the other problems that present because of the employment permit system and policy, we see employers using low cost immigration labour to drive down wage costs in certain niche sectors. This is of major concern. In regard to employment permits, there is an information deficit whereby employees do not know about their rights and entitlements, a situation of which rogue employers can take advantage.

On the other issues presenting at the services, the major issue, in addition to that surrounding employment permits, concerns family reunification as Ms Becker has already mentioned. This is a key concern to our service users, particularly where spouses have no automatic right to work. This can lead to poverty traps as many migrant workers and their families struggle to survive on low salaries. Other issues in regard to family reunification concern non-married persons and persons in same sex relationships having no formal immigration related rights.

Over the past six months we have seen an increase in the number of undocumented migrants presenting to the service. When we talk about undocumented migrants we mean persons whose papers are allegedly not in order and others whose status is open to question, in some cases through no fault of their own. They may, in certain cases, experience detention and deportation without due process. Obviously, this would be of concern to us and members.

Another issue concerns integration. It has been mentioned that planning for migrant workers is weakly developed and that there are no integration strategies for migrants other than recognised refugees. This presents difficulties for individuals. As an organisation working with immigrants, it is hugely problematic for us in trying to provide services that there is no budget line within Government for migrant rights and the integration of migrants.

I wish to refer to some specific recommendations arising from the issues presented, first and foremost would be - reiterating my colleague's presentation - that the principle of permanence should underpin immigration policy. At the conference for the EU Presidency last week in Bundoran there was a recognition of the need for immigration to Ireland and to see this as permanent. There was also an acknowledgement of the need for better information in the workplace, that related rights should be provided for and better enforced, that the needs of migrant workers should be identified and that appropriate services should be put in place. Having had this acknowledged, it echos our own recommendations, reiterating the need for a budget line for organisations such as ours to enable us to provide this information and respond to the needs of migrants.

We recommend that a system for regularising undocumented migrants should be considered. Family reunification should be a legal right and partners and spouses, once admitted, should have the right to seek employment. Migrant workers and their families should have access to training and education. This was one of the key themes at the conference in Bundoran which highlighted this inequality. There should also be mandatory licensing of language schools.

Returning to the employment of immigrants, we would like the validity period for work permits increased. There should also be a single residency-employment permit issued to the individual worker rather than the employer. Sr. Kennedy spoke about the difficulties unemployed migrants face, a matter which should be addressed. We would also like to see recruitment agencies being regulated, an issue of huge concern for the Immigrant Council of Ireland as a result of those presenting to its various services.

I thank Sr. Kennedy and her colleagues for a very informative presentation. This issue is a difficult one and has been used by some of our colleagues in the past to get votes for the wrong reasons but I do not want to go down that road. It is the reality that we have many such workers who are necessary for the country. I represent Cavan and Monaghan, two counties with a sizeable horticulture and food industry which in recent years has depended on workers from elsewhere in the European Union and further afield.

We cannot deny there are problems and misconceptions in this area which can be difficult to deal with.We need a more open debate on this matter and how the law is to change to take account of it. I am old enough to remember the massive emigration of the 1950s and 1960s when whole areas were abandoned by people going to Britain, the United States and Australia. As late as 1987, 40,000 had to leave because they had no jobs. It is marvellous to see this change. However, we do not have the structures in place to deal with this situation. In that context, I welcome this opportunity to discuss some of the realities and receive guidance from those to the forefront on how to proceed with legislation.

The delegation mentioned the role played by immigrants in tourism and so on. I recently dealt with such a person. Having lived here for three years she became pregnant and in spite of this has encountered great difficulties in dealing with the system and in finding out what her rights are. I had to talk to various people yesterday about the case because the child's grandmother, who is Irish, came to see me in desperation when she saw the lack of support for the woman concerned and her child. The woman concerned is a lovely person who came to work in Ireland at our request but is now very isolated because she is pregnant by an Irishman who is no longer involved with her. These are the issues with which we must deal. They include the provision that one must be living in the country for two years before receiving social welfare or six months before receiving housing support. These are the issues we raised at this committee when EU regulations were suggested. We need to go through them very carefully.

This is a new situation which can become very emotive. At a recent meeting I was told that people staying in a certain area were receiving a certain amount per day. They were receiving the stated amount but it was almost impossible to convince those at the meeting of the facts. I heard others had cars bought for them and their insurance paid. This is absolute rubbish but once it gets into the public domain, it is very hard to stop. The cuts in social welfare mean some are not receiving as much while others say if they were Romanian or members of some other group, they would not be suffering, as if the other groups concerned were the cause of their suffering. The Government must be careful not to undermine trust with its policies

I would welcome the delegation's guidance on any legislation which may come before us. It has spelled out clearly the difficulties we face, particularly when social welfare personnel are not aware of the changes made by other Departments. This is not only unfair to those seeking social welfare payments, it is also unfair to those working in social welfare offices.

Sr. Kennedy

Deputy Crawford highlights the importance of clear policies on immigration and the need for an open public debate. We also need leadership which we have not received. The Deputy also highlighted the absence of clear information which we are providing. We also provide training for those working in community information centres but the Immigration Council of Ireland receives no Government funding. We received no such funding when we set up and none to continue our work. This indicates the lack of commitment to immigrants and ensuring their rights are honoured. We have two copies of our immigration policy document which we will leave with the committee, as they are helpful. It provides clear information on immigrants.

I compliment the delegation on its excellent presentation which conveys that there has been no public debate on this issue, although this discussion offers a minor alternative. Am I to take it from the presentation that everyone, including parliamentarians, is afraid to debate it?

On the proposed referendum, the council seems to be recommending that a debate on the constitutional amendment proposed by the Government would be inappropriate during an election campaign. What are its concerns in this regard and does it believe a child born in a country has a right to citizenship? Should Ireland be different from the majority of countries in Europe? According to the Minister, the feature of Irish citizenship law which grants entitlement to citizenship to all persons born on the island of Ireland is out of kilter with the law in most other countries in Europe. How does the council respond to this?

Some may say the majority of politicians have failed to generate a debate on this issue. Practising politicians will be aware that, even though this country has gone through one of the most prosperous periods in its history, there are a number of groups which have not benefited from the Celtic tiger. They are being told on the doorstep in certain areas that people who have been on the housing waiting list for seven to ten years cannot receive a rent subsidy while immigrants get everything. There is a perception that immigrants are given houses and rent supplement at the flick of a finger having been in the country for just three months and that, unlike many Irish citizens, all have cars. There is a perception that while our own are not getting what they are entitled to and that they are having a difficult time, immigrants have it easy. While this is not the reality, it is the perception. I would like to know how this issue can be dealt with.

Sr. Kennedy

I will refer the issue of citizenship to Ms Becker. While there is a fear, we must enter into a rational public debate. The Deputy is correct that there is a perception that, despite long housing waiting lists, immigrants are given a house within a short time. The reality is that there are 50,000 families on the waiting list and they are not immigrants. These are the figures because we have not continued to provide social housing at the required rate.

What is important is that we separate issues for the public and make the situation very clear. We must draw a clear distinction between immigrants, a small minority of whom are asylum seekers. The vast majority come here to work and contribute to the economy. The only way we will change the perception is by repeating the reality over and over again. The same applies when anything needs to be changed, whether it be in regard to homelessness, women and so on.

We are not repeating the message over and over again. There are different messages from different places, which is utterly confusing for the public. This feeds into misinformation and racism and is a source of real concern. This has also happened in other countries and our fear is that it will get much worse here unless we nip it in the bud and sing from the same hymn sheet. The worst thing we could do is divide the marginalised and set them up against each other. That would ensure that those on the margins would fight with each other, which would suit the powerful. We cannot afford to let that happen. This must form part of a wider debate in which there is nothing to hide. It is a good story, not a negative one. We should be proud instead afraid to debate it in public. I have worked with the marginalised all my life and never took more abuse than when I became involved in this area. One is considered to be a saint when working with the homeless.

Ms Becker

Citizenship is a difficult issue with which to deal because we are just beginning to consider it. It is clear that there was a referendum which supported the Belfast Agreement just five years ago. It is important to take the public seriously in its endorsement of Articles 2 and 3 and by extension Article 9. It is also important to divide the issues of citizenship and immigration. It appears that the issue of citizenship is now being brought to the forefront in respect of what is actually an immigration issue. It is important to name it as such. The concern of the Government is that there are too many births to non-national women and, by extension, non-national parents of Irish born children potentially have to be allowed remain in the State.

Rather than disguise it as a citizenship issue, the issues need to be separated and debated in detail. Time should be made available to debate an issue as fundamental as citizenship. We are not saying the issue should not be debated. The Government has valid concerns because this is the only EU country where citizenship can be claimed at birth, where entitlement to citizenship is automatic. Some 42 countries grant citizenship on the basis of being born on the soil of the state.

Any potential change to the Constitution would require extensive debate, a Government White Paper and time for individuals and organisations to consider the issue. A White Paper and Green Paper should be drafted and published. I am concerned about the way in which it is proposed to hold the referendum by 12 June.

Even though we do not have the up-to-date figures, it appears that the birth rate has dropped. In the future Ireland will have a problem in regard to the sustainability of pensions, social welfare funds and so on. If foreign nationals do not give birth to Irish citizens, this begs the question of who will do so and how Ireland sustain will itself. Perhaps the benefit is greater than the potential disadvantage.

Ms Charlton

The reality is that there is a lot of misinformation. When training and working with groups, the lack of information on the reason Ireland has changed to a country of destination is incredible. It appears we talk about immigration in a charitable context as opposed to one of need. There is a need for evidence based research on the benefits of immigration and the reason it occurs. It is my experience that people are aware of the increasing levels of immigration but not of the reason for it or its benefits. There is a distorted picture of its effect on the health system or areas of the economy and industry which need to be supported. We touch upon the future need for immigrants both in Ireland and elsewhere in the European Union, on which there is much information.

Sr. Kennedy has repeatedly called for leadership in the way the debate is framed. We have recently heard inappropriate language in a debate framed in the context of baby or social welfare tourism. This is not helpful. These inappropriate terms are communicated consistently. We call for research on the benefits of immigration and for leadership on that message in order that the distorted picture is altered to reflect the reality.

I thank the Immigrant Council of Ireland representatives for their positive presentation. However, I cannot be so sanguine about the trends in legislation and their effect on non-nationals. The witnesses may wish to respond to the examples I will cite.

It is especially important that the council is making a presentation to the Joint Committee on Social and Family Affairs. One of the problems which bedevils the immigration debate is that it is often placed in the context of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. People are expected to produce a legalistic justification for their presence in the country rather than having their contribution to society celebrated. This committee has a role to play in recognising that contribution.

The experiences of public representatives constitute part of the problem in the legislative process. Only two Members of Dáil Éireann were born outside Ireland. I happen to be one of them. Because of the circumstances of my birth I hold dual citizenship in the United States, the only other country cited as granting citizenship to all born in that country. I hold Irish citizenship because my parents were Irish, even though they lived outside the country for a number of years. I am aware of the irony in the impending debate - which I hope will have a lengthy gestation, although that depends on other Members of the Dáil - that should any of the many thousands of Irish people who have illegal status in the United States give birth to children there those children will be citizens of the United States. It is disappointing that we can still think of having a debate of this nature.

The wider aspect of the citizenship debate needs a lengthy debate. The issue is wider than the appallingly termed "birth tourism". The question of when citizenship can be awarded is important. Ireland is restrictive in granting citizenship to people who have been here for many years. It is given as a gift whereas in many European countries it is given as an entitlement to any person who has lived and worked in the country for a lengthy period, sometimes five years. If we are to have a debate on citizenship, we need to examine this aspect of the citizenship debate as well as the narrow aspect about which Government representatives want to talk. We cannot have that wider debate in the space of eight weeks. I hope today's presentation will help.

I am especially grateful that the presentation has highlighted the fact that the majority of non-nationals are in the country because they have been invited here. They hold work permits, are working in jobs and contributing to the economy. The fact that our legislation was changed in 2003, not necessarily for the better, does not reflect well on these Houses. The nature of the employment permit system is that it is employer-held, not worker-held. There is a degree of economic slavery in the fact that people come to this country to work for a specific employer. They are not entitled to move to other jobs and contribute to the economy in even better ways once here. I am saddened that the House did not take the opportunity to put these reforms in place.

The Oireachtas recently enacted the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill which responded to an unnecessary scare about people from the EU accession countries coming to Ireland. Many people from these countries who have work permits and worked in Ireland for up to two years may find themselves unemployed after 1 May and will not be entitled to social welfare benefits, even though they have been contributing to the economy. The Immigrant Council of Ireland is playing a valuable role in making sure these double standards are exposed. It is also the responsibility of this committee to highlight these matters.

The media and political commentators have focused on the issue of asylum seekers and refugees. The long assessment process operates to the disadvantage of asylum seekers. Does the council have a view on the length of this process and the need to challenge it? If the process becomes prolonged, there should be an automatic entitlement to a work permit after six or 12 months. People in the country can contribute and want to do so. They should be allowed to work if their applications are not assessed within a given timespan. In other European countries, most recently in Britain, because the assessment process is so drawn out and swamped in bureaucracy, the idea of an amnesty has been floated and sometimes implemented. This has helped to overcome a backlog and given time and space in which proper policies can be put in place to ensure the problem does not recur.

I value the opportunity presented by this meeting which I hope will help to challenge the large degree of ignorance of the area of immigration and the lack of an immigration policy.

Sr. Kennedy

As representatives of the Immigrant Council of Ireland, we agree with the sentiments of Deputy Boyle regarding immigrants and the asylum seeking process. His contribution is positive and informed. The asylum seeking process is far too slow. It puts individuals and families in dreadful situations.

Deputy Boyle's point regarding the irony of double standards is absolutely true. Unless there is openness and transparency with regard to immigrants, this double standard will continue. There is an assumption that members of the general public will not accept that this is a destination country. This is unfair to them. If they understood the positive contribution immigrants can make, they would agree that immigration is a good thing. There is a feeling in leadership that we must not enter this area because it is dangerous territory. Much needs to be done to promote an informed debate.

I do not deny that there are problems in this area. However, unless there is openness in the debate, a lack of double standards and a determination to move forward rather than return to the past, we face great disquiet in society.

Ms Becker

I will leave out the issue of asylum-seeking. The Immigrant Council of Ireland was set up to complement the services provided by organisations such as the Irish Refugee Council to assist migrants. It is not that we are not interested in or concerned about asylum seekers but they are not the main focus of our work.

I completely agree with the remarks made in regard to the change in the granting of citizenship by naturalisation on a purely discretionary basis, even, for example, in the case of spouses of Irish nationals who until recently were able to acquire citizenship by way of post-nuptial declaration. That is a change for the worse and makes the position more restrictive than in other EU countries.

We are very concerned - our concern is highlighted in many of the publications of the council - that the employment permit system requires that the employer holds the permit and that to a certain extent the employee is bound to a particular employer, even in cases of exploitation or discrimination where people find themselves in a position where they are afraid to complain because they think it might lead to unfair dismissal, even where they are being harassed. They feel unable to leave or make a constructive dismissal claim because they are unsure as to what their residency status will be if they leave that employer to whom their residency permit is linked. Even if the residency permit is still valid, they fear they will not be able to find an alternative employer within the short period of time for which the permit may be valid. This problem has been exacerbated by the Employment Permits Act which provides that nationals of the EU accession countries should be treated more favourably, thus making it even more difficult to obtain new permits, although, apparently, renewals are not affected. However, a new permit for a second employer is difficult to obtain.

We are also concerned about the social welfare legislation being introduced regarding the ability to claim non-contributory welfare payments, particularly of those who through no fault of their own become unemployed at an early stage. We are concerned, too, from a European law perspective. It is not clear, for example, why a period of residency in the United Kingdom is counted in meeting the two year residency requirement whereas a period of residency in France or Denmark is not. I am not sure this would stand up to scrutiny. It certainly discriminates indirectly against European nationals, other than UK and Irish nationals, who are unlikely to be able to comply with this requirement.

I thank the Immigrant Council of Ireland for its detailed presentation which covers much ground. It points to some startling facts, for example, that there has been a 121% increase per month over the past four months. We should not run away from what is a major issue.

I will comment briefly on the issue of employment permits. The issuing of permits to employers should cease immediately. This is almost like slavery and I cannot understand how it is allowed to continue. The matter needs to be addressed urgently.

On the issue of immigration, there is a fear fed by many. It is an issue on which I would like to hear the council's comments. People on the street believe there is a big problem. They believe we will be swamped, that houses they should be given will be taken from them and that health service will be overrun. Not only do they believe this but I am a member of the North Eastern Health Board, the executive of which tells us that part of the reason we have a budget problem is the high costs associated with maternity services and the screening of those placed in the holding centre in Mosney. We are told that the number of births to non-nationals is increasing dramatically. The health board, a State body, is thereby suggesting immigration as a reason for some of our problems. This is only a hen's kick away from the type of comment which provokes racism. One would not expect this from a State agency. Such comments send a message which the people pick up through the media. They are convinced by the argument because the statement is made by a health board.

Looking at the issues from a health perspective, we also seem to have difficulties regarding nursing staff. We went to great expense recruiting nurses from different parts of the world for our hospitals, some of whom had partners or husbands and families who came with them but were not given work permits. This cannot continue. The problems that arise must be addressed.

Many of those who come to Ireland come illegally through a people-trafficking system. This presents a problem. What views does the council have on a quota system or does it believe we should place a cap on numbers coming here? Many believe this is a small country with a small population which could easily be swamped. They believe that if we provide too many benefits, we will create major problems for ourselves.

These are just a few of the issues on which I would like a response. We cannot cover the mine of issues in 30 minutes, nor can we expect the issues involved to be covered at Government level and rushed through in eight weeks. The time available is totally inadequate.

I will be brief because many of the issues have been covered. How would the notion whereby the permit would be given to the employee rather than the employer work in practice? How can the Immigrant Council of Ireland guarantee that people would work and not just end up claiming benefits from this "social welfare friendly country" as it has been described?

Whoever applies for the permit must pay a sum of €500. That is another issue. Would potential workers be able to pay this themselves?

Ms Becker

I would probably suggest something similar to the work authorisation and visa scheme already in place for certain high skills categories identified as urgently required in the labour market, including IT workers, construction engineers etc. in respect of whom permits are issued for a two year period on the basis that they have a job offer and a contract before they enter the State. On entering the State, they are allowed to remain on condition that they work in that skills category only.

I would envisage something similar. For example, people should either have a job offer or be able to show they have found a job within a particular time-frame. The entitlement to welfare payments would be limited. With regard to social welfare legislation, everybody in need in the State is entitled to receive some assistance. However, the residency permit, if linked to a job, would expire within a short period and I would not envisage such a claim continuing long-term. Permits would be granted to those able to find work and are also needed in the economy.

To address the cost of a work permit, as far as I know, work visas and authorisations cost as much as an ordinary visa - _60 - significantly less than the amount charged for permits. They are issued to those who generally have more funds than low skilled workers.

Does an employer have to pay a sum of €500 to make an application?

Ms Becker

The employer applies for permission to employ the non-national. I was comparing it with the work visa and authorisation scheme whereby permits are granted for a period of two years to high skilled workers. They are issued directly to the employee and much cheaper to obtain.

I mentioned that health boards made reference to the cost of providing services for the people concerned.

Ms Charlton

It comes back to what we have being saying from the outset, that there is a need for an anti-discrimination and anti-racism agenda, to ensure leadership is given on the issue and that that type of dialogue is not permitted unless its evidence based, as clearly it is not.

I will return to the issue of a cap on the number of immigrants and potentially illegal immigrants in the country. We absolutely recognise the necessity for a government to manage borders but in recognising that there is a cap on the number coming into the country, we reiterate the call for recruitment agencies to be regularised to address the exploitation of workers who possibly may find themselves here illegally due to bad practice on the part of such agencies. There are 17 inspectors. We call for an increase in this number. We believe there should be flexibility in order that immigrants will not suffer through no fault of their own.

Has the Immigrant Council of Ireland made its views known to Government on the proposed referendum to restrict the right to citizenship? Has it had any contact with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, from which the proposal emanates? The debate should be an informed one. It should be rational and based on an objective analysis as opposed to irrational and playing on fears people might have as this would serves nobody's purpose.

The problem of family reunification in the way the work permit system operates is an indictment of us. A major contribution to the confusion among the general public is made by the system being so ad hoc in nature and made up as we go along, as Sr. Kennedy outlined. People do not know where they stand. Witnesses have appeared before the committee who are very eager to work and have a professional contribution to make. In reception centres I have met veterinary surgeons and doctors who have applied for visas and want to make a contribution here. While we need such workers, they have been refused. They want to work; they do not want to be given the sum of €19. They have professional qualifications which would cost them thousands of euro to gain here. We have much to gain from them.

When Filipino nurses came here to address the nursing shortage, we pulled down the shutters and refused to allow in their partners, many of whom have professional expertise. Ms Charlton is right in suggesting that we talk out of one side of our mouth on policy objectives and constitutional imperatives of families being the nucleus, yet when this is presented to us in this form, we pull down the shutters. It is a case of one side of the Government not knowing what the other side is doing. Coherence and joined up government thinking are critical.

Has Ms Charlton indicated to the Government that it would be highly inappropriate to hold the proposed referendum on 11 June as it would cause further confusion in people's minds? It would be the antithesis of a wide, open and full debate, which we should have.

Ms Charlton

When the referendum was proposed, we issued a statement and contacted the Department. We sought a meeting with the Minister on a number of occasions, on the referendum and the Immigration Bill when it was being debated. He had publicly stated he would hold further consultations on a more permanent immigration and residency Bill but we have not yet been successful in getting a meeting with him. However, we are ever hopeful.

Ms Charlton should not hold her breath.

Ms Charlton

We will continue to pursue that strategy.

Is there any evidence that recruitment agencies are playing hand in hand with employers, for whom they recruit workers knowing that the employment practice is to illegally retain the visas and passports thereafter? I know there has been evidence of occasional fake agencies. Any agency operating on this basis can be nothing other than a fake.

Sr. Kennedy

There is evidence that it happens and it is clear to us. There is a difficulty because, as Ms Becker mentioned, if the employer has a permit, workers are afraid to speak openly about the matter when they come to us as they are afraid they will lose their jobs and residency status. It is a difficult situation. We need a strong inspectorate and a lot of control over the situation. There are rogue agencies which are doing a lot of damage to the immigration process.

Can the Immigrant Council of Ireland give any reassurance that it can provide some form of support for the people who come to it? Obviously, what is going on is highly illegal and tantamount to supporting slavery.

Ms Charlton

We can give some support but are limited in the protection we can provide and the access to redress we can offer. It comes back to the inspectorate and flexibility within the Department to shift an employment permit to another employer. The issue that arises for us is problematic. The other difficulty is that individuals often do not have information on services and organisations such as ours. Even when we have absolute examples demonstrating exploitation in the workplace, fears are raised and our role is limited. It comes back to the need for the Government to provide the inspectorate and ensure the individual does not suffer the consequences and that sanctions are placed on the employer.

The trade unions, particularly Mike Jennings of SIPTU, have been deeply involved in this issue. I believe Sr. Kennedy indicated that money was provided to establish the Immigrant Council of Ireland but there had been no further funding. I compliment the witnesses on their presentation today. How is it possible to make such an excellent presentation and how will the council survive in the future? Everything that is done needs money.

Sr. Kennedy

The providence of God.

On which we all depend at various times. Sr. Kennedy seem to have a better line of communication to God than we do.

Sr. Kennedy

I am not too sure about that. Seriously, we received funding two years ago from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform to set up the council. The following year, at budget time, having supplied a detailed report on what we had done for employers and employees in the first year, we were told no funds were available. We then approached the Minister for Social and Family Affairs concerning the information side of our work and received some funding from her Department last year. I think we got €80,000 and will probably get €60,000 this year. We received money for the publication of the handbook, a copy of which we will give to the joint committee. The funding we are receiving this year is also for the information part of our service. No funding is available for the other parts such as legal services and the work we are doing in research, education and influencing policy. We have to beg and borrow, although not steal, to fund such activities.

The circumstances I have mentioned indicate that immigration is seen as unimportant. It is falling through the cracks in the system. The Chairman mentioned that he was glad that the Immigrant Council of Ireland was attending this meeting; we are glad to be here. Immigration is very much seen as the prerogative of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. There is no doubt that controlling the border, etc., should be the responsibility of that Department but the Government needs to do something in other areas to provide a clear line for immigrants, the council and others working in the field. A clear cross-departmental approach is needed. It does not matter whether Departments or other agencies are involved but if such an approach is not adopted, Departments will fail to communicate with and contradict each other. In such circumstances, people like us who are doing a great deal of work do not know where we stand and receive no funding. We will have to hope to operate from day to day.

Did the Immigrant Council of Ireland apply to the Dormant Accounts Fund Disbursements Board?

Ms Charlton

Yes but I am not sure if we are eligible within the criteria laid down. The competition——

There are no criteria for the balance.

Ms Charlton

Yes. We are included.

How many members of staff does the Immigrant Council of Ireland have?

Ms Charlton

It has six members of staff.

Sr. Kennedy

We have six very good members of staff.

I do not doubt that that is the case, as has been indicated by the quality of the Immigant Council of Ireland's presentation. I thank the delegation once again. There has been a substantial level of interest and a large number of questions during this valuable meeting. The comprehensiveness of the witnesses' replies and the quality of their presentation have been stimulating. It is good that the joint committee has taken a lead in trying to stimulate debate about immigration. Some of the arguments made by it in respect of a number of contentious matters were matched in the content of the delegation's submission. I thank all of the witnesses for attending this meeting and giving of their time. I do not doubt that we will have to return to this topic.

I ask the delegation to update the committee about any other submissions it intends to make to Departments. We would like to be fully informed of such developments as we consider other matters relating to social and family affairs that might be relevant to this fairly diverse topic. I thank the delegation and members of the committee for their contributions. I understand the members of the delegation will circulate a further document before they leave. We look forward to further contributions from the Immigrant Council of Ireland.

Sr. Kennedy

The committee is free to contact us at any time, if it wishes to do so.

We may well do so.

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