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JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 6 Feb 2008

Habitual Residence Condition: Discussion with FLAC and Department of Social and Family Affairs.

I welcome Ms Noeline Blackwell, director general of the Free Legal Advice Centres, and Ms Saoirse Brady, the policy and campaign officer. They are to make their presentation on the habitual residency condition, after which members may ask questions.

I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the house or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Is it possible for the officials from the Department to attend now so both presentations can be made together? Thus, we could question both delegations at the same time. This is how the meeting is envisaged in the agenda.

I am sorry. The delegations will make two separate presentations and we could not have both present at the one time.

The presentations are on the same issue.

They will make separate presentations. We will now hear the presentation of the Free Legal Advice Centres.

The two presentations are on the same issue. It does not make sense to deal with them separately.

We will ask the same questions.

I appeal to the members to proceed as I have outlined.

The agenda lists both delegates under No. 4, which concerns the habitual residency clause.

I propose to proceed as the Chairman suggested.

We object and want the two groups to attend together.

I appeal to the members to allow the first delegation to make its presentation. Otherwise, we will go nowhere.

We are afraid that we might go nowhere. Will the Chairman state why he wants to separate the two groups?

They will make two separate presentations.

They are on the same issue.

That makes no difference. We have agreed to deal with them separately.

We have not agreed that.

I agreed it.

The rest of us have a say also.

I decided to deal with them separately. I call the first delegation to make its presentation.

A majority of members wants both to be taken together.

The Deputy can vote on it if she wants to.

I have made a ruling and I ask the members to abide by it.

I am not trying to be difficult on this matter. The Chairman has not explained his rationale.

Difficult is exactly what the members are being.

The Chairman has not explained why both presentations cannot be heard together.

I have explained three times and will not do so again.

He has not done so at all. If there is a reason for not having both delegations in together, we will be quite prepared to consider it, but the Chairman has provided none.

Can we allow the delegates to make their presentation?

Ms Noeline Blackwell

Ms Saoirse Brady and I will share the burden of making the presentation.

FLAC is a voluntary organisation whose main purpose is the promotion of equal access to justice for all. The aim is to achieve greater social and economic inclusion. We tend to focus on areas of law that are of particular concern to very vulnerable people, including social welfare law.

FLAC is interested in securing better use of law in the public interest and ensuring that those who need legal aid receive it. I refer to this in particular because FLAC is sometimes confused with the State-funded Legal Aid Board, the head office of which is in Cahirciveen and which delivers the State scheme. FLAC is a voluntary organisation but runs clinics throughout the country, normally in conjunction with citizen information centres. There are approximately 63 of these and they operate on a part-time basis. They are staffed by approximately 400 voluntary lawyers, who give an hour or two of their time every week or month to run the clinics.

FLAC became interested in and concerned about the habitual residence condition when it first came into effect in 2004. We are grateful to the committee for allowing us to raise our concerns. Our written submission outlines our general concerns but my colleague and I will refer only to some in order to save time. I thank the staff of FLAC for the work it has done on the submission, particularly Saoirse Brady and Lianne Murphy.

Ms Brady and I will briefly outline the history of the habitual residence condition, which, although less than four years old, is already quite chequered. We will explain the condition and its effects, including the effects compounded by inconsistencies and delays in the system. We will touch briefly on the special area of the child benefit and make a few recommendations that we would like the committee to consider.

In May 2004, when ten new countries joined the European Union, Ireland, the United Kingdom and Sweden opened their borders to workers from the newly acceded member states. Other EU countries did not. It was feared at the time that migrants from the accession countries would come as tourists to avail of our social welfare. This proved to be an unfounded fear and the Migrant Rights Council has carried out a survey that shows that only a tiny percentage of EU workers have claimed benefits in the years since accession. To counteract the fears that existed, the habitual residence condition was introduced. It was to prevent people claiming social welfare payments until they had been in the State for a sufficient period.

The relevant Act applies to a number of social assistance payments and to child benefit. We set out the various benefits that apply in our submission. The wording of the condition and the manner in which it works has changed over the past three and a half years. Initially there was a two-year residence rule whereby the authorities sought to determine whether each applicant had been continuously resident in the Irish State for two years before applying for the benefit. This rather blunt assessment was queried by the European Commission, which sent a formal inquiry to the Irish State about the two-year limit.

Ireland conceded that if there was a condition based on a specific period it would not meet the requirements of the European Court of Justice. This was stated in the report to the Council of Europe in compliance with the European code of social security, to the effect "Ireland is aware that the relevant jurisprudence of the European Court of Justice precludes reliance on any specific duration of residence". The Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2007 sets out what had become the broad way of deciding on habitual residence under five criteria:

(a) length and continuity of residence in the State or in any other particular country:

(b) length and purpose of any absence from the State;

(c) nature and pattern of the person’s employment;

(d) the person’s main centre of interest;

future intentions of the person concerned as they appear from all the circumstances.

These, among other factors, were to be taken into account. The condition has not operated quite as cleanly as I make it sound. It is more complicated than it appears. Ms Brady will speak about the workings of the habitual residence condition as we know it from examination of the law and the rules, and from speaking to people.

Ms Saoirse Brady

A deciding officer in the relevant unit decides on a case-by-case basis whether an applicant is habitually resident in the State. An applicant can ask for a review of the decision if he or she is not happy with it, and can in turn appeal that to the social welfare appeals office, which acts independently of the Department of Social and Family Affairs.

Ms Blackwell has spoken about EU workers covered by section 3. EU workers in Ireland are entitled to child benefit for children living outside Ireland in the same way that Irish people are entitled to family benefits in a member state where they work. That is a separate issue from the habitual residence condition which Ms Blackwell will discuss in general.

Ms Noeline Blackwell

The joint committee may have invited us here to explore how the condition works, and why people are concerned about it, rather than the theory. In theory, the condition would be redundant under its original purpose which was to stop EU citizens coming here to claim social welfare benefits after accession. In effect, the scheme does not include European workers but it continues to apply to people for whom it was not originally intended. Those whom it affects are among the poorest and most vulnerable people in the State. That is why we want the committee to consider what the social welfare system should accomplish.

This condition is creating destitution for a very small vulnerable group of people. Some are asylum seekers, some await decisions on whether they can remain in the State, which can take five years or more without access to various payments, and exploited migrant workers. It can also affect people who grew up in Ireland but went away and have returned. The people whom it catches are more vulnerable than most. Added to the complexities of the condition, and that it is accomplishing an aim other than that originally intended, there are problems involving inconsistent decisions and delays in the appeals system because there are insufficient resources for the appeals system.

Ms Saoirse Brady

Through our case work we have encountered many inconsistencies. Our submission contains several case studies. There are problems particularly in respect of the two-year rule. Case study 1 concerns a non-EEA woman living in Ireland for approximately two years caring for a sick child who was denied the carer's allowance, even though she satisfied the habitual residency condition for other benefits such as child benefit. Returning Irish emigrants also face problems due to the condition.

Case study 2 concerns an emigrant who came back to care for her elderly mother but was denied the carer's allowance because she had not permanently re-established herself in Ireland. This seems quite unfair given that she was saving the State money by coming home to care for her mother.

These examples show how in certain cases an insufficient and harsh interpretation of the condition creates more hardship for people already struggling to survive in difficult circumstances. They also demonstrate a lack of consistency which the chief appeals officer noted in his annual report for 2006 and which we cite in our submission.

The appeals office does not have enough resources and in some cases people wait up to a year for their appeals to be heard. This is after they have waited a considerable time for their initial application to be assessed. The delays in the asylum process also cause serious problems. It is extremely unfair that those waiting for a decision on their legal status are not deemed habitually resident until that status has been determined. The chief appeals officer has criticised the Department's refusal to grant payments to asylum seekers because they are being penalised for a decision over which they can exercise no control. We also cite this in our submission.

Ms Noeline Blackwell

All the payments listed in our submission, apart from child benefit, are social assistance payments. Child benefit is and always has been a unique payment in the Irish social welfare system, being paid regardless of the merit or means of the child's parents. That was not done simply because somebody was too lazy to work it out but because the State calculated that in order to end child poverty it should ensure that every child received this minimum benefit.

The national children's strategy and Towards 2016 recognise the need for financial supports for children, and the strategy clearly elaborates that benefit should go to every child. It is an unfortunately retrograde step to attach the habitual residence condition to child benefit. According to our calculations, fewer than 3,000 children do not get child benefit and they are already the most excluded. Even the Minister does not have exact figures. These children are in our schools and health service but some do not receive this benefit for years at a time. It is not only contrary to Government policy but to the fundamental rights to which children are entitled.

We will speak for approximately two more minutes, if that is alright.

The speakers have well exceeded their time but may continue for another minute.

Ms Noeline Blackwell

Several questions emerge relating to international human rights laws and children's fundamental human rights, which will become an issue this year.

Ms Saoirse Brady

The main instrument we would examine is the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which Ireland ratified in 1992. We direct the committee to Articles 2, 3 and 26 which are laid out in the submission. FLAC believes there are still inconsistencies between the habitual residence condition and these rights.

How can the habitual residence condition be compliant with Article 2 which prohibits discrimination on the basis of status when decisions on child benefit applications are based on the children's and their parents' legal status? How are the best interests of all children in this jurisdiction being realised when some children already in vulnerable situations are denied child benefit? How do children, who are refused child benefit, benefit from social security as required under Article 26?

In our submission, we refer to a debate in which the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Cullen, referred to how Article 26 was taken into consideration. FLAC believes Articles 2 and 3 have not been taken into consideration.

Ms Noeline Blackwell

I suggest the committee considers recommending the removal of the habitual residence condition from child benefit. While the habitual residence condition unit is moving towards greater clarity, greater information needs to be given on the condition so that decisions are made in a better way.

Resources are badly needed for the social welfare appeals office so people do not have to wait a year to receive an appeal after a bad initial decision and at a time when they could be badly stuck for money. There needs to be greater information around the working of the condition.

I take it that section 30 of the Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2007 should overrule the habitual residence condition. While figures from 2006 were given, are there details since the 2007 Act was passed and do inconsistencies still apply?

It is claimed child benefit for approximately 3,000 children is affected. I raised this issue in the Dáil on 4 December 2007 and the Minister, in response, claimed that 90% of those who appealed satisfied the habitual residence condition while only 341 were refused owing to it not being satisfied. Where does the difference come in between the 3,000 figure and the 341 figure?

I have been informed of cases where the habitual residence condition has become an issue for Irish emigrants returning to Ireland. How many instances does FLAC have of this? I had a case only yesterday of an only child who was an illegal emigrant in the US. She had to make a decision to come back to Ireland to look after an elderly parent. Obviously, she cannot return to the US but neither can she receive welfare payments in Ireland.

In any discussions on the matter with the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, has FLAC received a positive response? When we raised it in the Dáil, he more or less concluded that he only made the payment and it was the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform that made the rules. What is FLAC's view on this? I would not like to see the matter fall between the two Departments with nothing happening as a result.

The delegation referred to inconsistent decisions. Regarding the five criteria for the condition, has FLAC information as to what is the most common basis on which people are refused? Are there statistics on the number of appeals that are upheld? I know the number is generally high but has FLAC information in this specific case?

The justification for the habitual residence condition is to discourage welfare tourism. What is FLAC's view on this?

Have other states with such a condition, such as Sweden and the UK, made any changes to it? If so, has FLAC liaised with similar groups in those countries?

This is an important issue. I am aware of an instance of a young woman who spent a year and a half as a missionary in Korea. She had to return home to care for her father. She had one child but could not get either carer's allowance or child benefit. It is ridiculous if a law introduced to deal with the possibility of increased numbers coming in from other European countries ends up affecting an Irish citizen returning home to look after a parent.

FLAC has a service in my town, Tallaght. I note they were locked out last night but it was not my fault. I support this very good service locally.

Members have sympathy for FLAC's argument on child benefit and the condition. I will not argue that with the delegation except that the direct provision from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform takes account of this. Can FLAC explain its logic?

Ms Noeline Blackwell

Section 30 of the Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2007 amended the habitual residence condition that, until the contrary is proven, a person shall be deemed not to be habitually resident unless they have been continuously resident for the previous two years. The amending section listed five factors that must be taken into account when determining a person is habitually resident in the State as follows: the length and continuity of residence in the State or in any other particular country; the length and purpose of any absence from the State; the nature and pattern of the person's employment; the person's main centre of interest; and the future intentions of the person concerned as they appear from all the circumstances.

Even the most devoted fan of the habitual residence condition would agree this is not clearly understood by every decision-maker.

Ms Saoirse Brady

We had a case this week of a woman with a stamp 4, which allows her to work, and who has been in Ireland for several years. When she applied for child benefit, she was refused on the habitual residence condition. We wrote on her behalf because she was informed her initial application would not be processed for six or seven months. Obviously, with three children, she could not wait that long. We wrote on her behalf and she has now been granted child benefit. On the other hand, she had moved into an apartment on advice received from the Department of Social and Family Affairs to the effect that she would be entitled to rent allowance. She moved in and made an agreement with the landlord that she would be getting rent allowance. However, when she moved to a different social welfare office that allowance was refused and she has to move out of that apartment by Friday of this week. Her landlord has been very understanding but obviously needs to rent the apartment. I phoned a community welfare officer, CWO, as regards how one might be an habitual resident for one payment but not another. This is just one of the many inconsistencies we are coming across.

Ms Noeline Blackwell

This seems to come up again and again. Each decision maker for each benefit makes a decision which may be inconsistent with the one before. It is therefore not surprising that we, outside, who are not as familiar with the system as the deciding officers, will get confused where they are making different decisions on the same person with the same set of circumstances. Inconsistencies are nearly built in — a system such as that invites inconsistencies.

The UN Committee on the Rights of the Child said previously that there is lack of data in Ireland on vulnerable children at risk of poverty. The Minister said on a number of occasions that the exact figure is not known. All the Department can say from looking at those who have applied and were refused because of the habitual residence condition is how many applied. The reality is that many parents never apply for child benefit because they are told informally by the CWO that there is no point in applying since they have not been here continuously for two years. We find there is under-application, therefore, for child benefit. We also did our calculation on the basis that children in direct provision, for the most part, are not getting child benefit. Some children get child benefit if they have been in direct provision since before May 2004. There is even an inequality within some hostels, which is unsatisfactory.

We have calculated the number of children in direct provision and tried to estimate how many were there since May 2004. We calculate that there are about 2,500 in direct provision who are not getting child benefit. Add to that the children of exploited migrant workers and others who have fallen out of the system and we come up with a figure that we are happy to concede as incorrect — perhaps someone can produce a better calculation, but the figures are just not there.

On the question of direct provision, to take up Deputy O'Connor's point, such children get €9 a week. Children getting child benefit get €35 to €40 a week. The Minister says they are getting bed and board as well, but in no other circumstance where children get State benefit is this taken away from their child benefit. This means that the parents of children who are getting various other dependency allowances will not have their child benefit reduced accordingly. It is not taken out of the child benefit of parents or foster parents of children in care so it is very low.

We know of parents who cannot buy shoes for their children. Any of the teachers' unions will confirm they have a real problem in the schools, with children who cannot pay the voluntary subscriptions —€2 a week or whatever — so many have to pay. There are children who cannot go on school tours. Teachers will say the book funds are inadequate where there are asylum seeking children in a school. Every parent knows that they use child benefit for one purpose or another and this option is not available at €9 a week. Over the counter medicines is another problem area. Some of our staff met a woman in a hostel during the week where baby food is taken away on the day a child reaches the age of one, regardless of whether he or she needs it. The allowance of €9 per week is not sufficient to buy the baby milk the child needs. There are so many reasons that people need child benefit. I am sorry, perhaps that was an over-amplification, but this situation is leading people into poverty.

Ms Saoirse Brady

As regards the returning Irish emigrant issues raised by Deputies Enright and Crawford, we do not get as many of those cases because we deal more with child benefit. I believe the person coming home to Ireland should be getting carer's allowance.

Ms Noeline Blackwell

That was precisely the point raised by Deputy Crawford.

Ms Saoirse Brady

We have heard of instances of it and the trend seems to be getting more common.

Ms Noeline Blackwell

The decision there is taken on the grounds that the person's centre of interest is not in Ireland whereas we would argue that the person's centre of interest, namely, caring for his or her parent, is in Ireland, even if a bond is not given that the emigrant will never return to the other country. It is an incorrect interpretation, in our view, of what is meant by a person's centre of interest. The entire centre of interest for the person caring for a mother or father at home is there. However, it is argued that future intentions are that such a person will go somewhere else.

In terms of reasons for refusal, as raised by Deputy Shortall, part of the problem we have is that many of the cases we started nearly a year ago still have not been heard by the social welfare appeals office. There are enormous delays.

Is Ms Blackwell referring to the original decision?

Ms Noeline Blackwell

On the original decision, people are still being refused this week on the basis that they have not been in the country for two years. That is not correct, as I am sure the habitual residency unit here can confirm. However, that is one of the reasons they are being refused. The other main reason is that their centre of interest is not in Ireland. Those are the two main reasons as we understand it. We only have anecdotal information because it is not published. Even the social welfare appeals office picks out a few indicative decisions for publication so we do not know what is happening all along the way. Neither do we have statistics on the appeals because they are simply not being dealt with as quickly as they need to be.

In terms of welfare tourism, there is no way one can ever answer the charge that people are coming to Ireland just for welfare, except to say that people come here for a variety of reasons. Most of them come to work, for family reasons, etc. All these rank much higher in objective studies than the pull of welfare. However, undoubtedly the thinking behind the policy is that allowing people access to welfare is a pull factor.

To take up a point made by Deputy Carey, all welfare systems are somewhat different. In Sweden, for instance, children do not get child benefit either, but they are only in the asylum system for a maximum of four months before their parents are allowed to work. Moreover, the rate at which they get their daily payment is much higher than in Ireland so a valid comparison cannot be made. If one compares the situation to the UK, it would suit people much better to go there because while Britain has a complicated residency condition, it has reciprocal arrangements with a wide variety of states, apart from the European Union. Therefore it is very difficult to make a comparison. We are the people who are most rigid in the application, with a system that invites long delays, forcing people to wait much longer than in other countries. If this is looked at not from the viewpoint of a migration policy but rather from the children's world view, no justification can be made for it in terms of child policy. It does not accord with our legislation and the commitments we have under international law. Neither does it accord with our child poverty policies. That is a rambling answer, but a straight comparison cannot be made with other countries.

Why is the law in contention with that?

Ms Saoirse Brady

Article 2 deals with non-discrimination and it deals with any status, including their legal status or where they have originally come from.

Ms Noeline Blackwell

Article 3 states that all decisions, including administrative decisions, must be made in the best interests of the child. Article 26 deals with social security. The whole thing is to do with children in the jurisdiction. It has nothing to do with citizenship or nationality and the Irish obligation remains in the jurisdiction for all children. The Minister has stated that the obligation is met by giving them bed and board as well as €9 in direct provision. That still discriminates between them and other children who are in the care of the State.

In our strategy for children from 2000 to 2010, we state that child benefit is an important means of reducing child poverty and supporting the welfare of children, given its universal coverage and its neutral relationship to both the employment incentive and decisions regarding family formation. It goes further, but that is the key aspect.

Deputy Enright asked about the core of the decision on the habitual residence condition. This was a concern for us. When we started first, we were told it was a migration policy, but we were told by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform that it was a welfare policy. The Department of Social and Family Affairs told us that it is its policy, but that it is a Government policy. We were told by the Office of the Minister for Children that it makes the strategy, but that it is not up to the office to implement it. As far as we know, it is a Government policy, but we could not find somebody who wanted to own up to writing it.

Can I ask a question?

It must be short. We have two more groups to come in.

I am just looking for clarification. Ms Blackwell said that children who are detained with their parents are only entitled to €9, but only after a year when their formula is stopped. Is that true?

Ms Noeline Blackwell

No, they are getting the €9 anyway, but their formula is stopped.

Are they then left with €9?

Ms Noeline Blackwell

The €9 is all the parents get for the child and they must buy the formula.

It is €7.85 for a packet of formula.

I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee today and giving such an informed presentation.

Ms Noeline Blackwell

Thank you for listening to us.

I welcome Mr. Eddie Rice, principal officer of the habitual residence commission unit of the Department of Social and Family Affairs, Mr. Sean Gaughan, assistant principal officer of the unit, Mr. Philip Melville, assistant principal officer of the international section of the planning unit, Mr. Roy Baldrick, assistant principal officer of the child benefit unit and Mr. Benny Swinburne, assistant principal officer of the supplementary welfare allowance unit. I ask the witnesses to be brief. The committee members may then ask questions.

I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege, but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House, or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Eddie Rice

We thank you for your invitation to appear before the joint committee this afternoon for a discussion on the habitual residence condition. I propose to provide committee members with background information on the introduction of the habitual residence condition, or HRC, the criteria that apply to HRC decisions, the impact it has had and some issues that have been raised by interested parties about its operation.

A requirement to be habitually resident in Ireland was first introduced as a qualifying condition for receipt of certain assistance payments and child benefit with effect from 1 May 2004. I will return to the subject of the child benefit issue in more detail at a later stage. The HRC was introduced in the context of the Government's decision to open the Irish labour market to workers from the ten new EU member states, without the transitional limitations that were imposed at that time by most of the other member states. Regardless of nationality, all applicants for the following payments are required to be habitually resident in the State. These are jobseeker's allowance, the State pension, which is non-contributory for persons aged over 66, blind pension, widow's, widower's and orphan's non-contributory pensions, the one-parent family payment, the carer's allowance, the disability allowance, the supplementary welfare allowance, other than once-off exceptional and urgent needs payments, and child benefit.

The habitual residence condition means that persons who have not worked in Ireland or who have little or no connection to this country cannot avail of assistance schemes or child benefit. In particular, a person who has not obtained permission to work here and who does not have the means to be fully self-supporting will not satisfy the habitual residence condition. The condition does not apply to insurance benefits, which are payable to persons who satisfy the contribution and other conditions. An applicant for one of the affected payments, regardless of nationality, who has spent most or all of his or her life in Ireland will normally satisfy the habitual residence condition. Persons who have lived in other parts of the common travel area, such as Northern Ireland, and who then move with the intention of settling here are quite likely to satisfy the habitual residence condition. Migrant workers from other countries who have genuinely made Ireland their permanent home will also satisfy the habitual residence condition for receipt of social assistance payments and child benefit. An applicant who satisfies the HRC must also satisfy the other conditions of entitlement to receive the payment claimed.

What are the criteria that apply to the habitual residence condition? Habitual residence implies a more settled state than mere physical presence, essentially a stable association between the applicant and the country from which payment is claimed. The European Court of Justice has determined that the following five factors are relevant in determining whether a person is habitually resident, as follows: the applicant's main centre of interest; the length and continuity of residence in a particular country; the length and purpose of absence from a country; the nature and pattern of employment in a country; and the future intention of applicant concerned as it appears from all the circumstances.

These factors were included in Irish social welfare legislation in 2007 and their application is outlined in more detail in decisions guidelines drawn up by the Department for our decisions staff. No single factor is conclusive and the five factors are not necessarily exhaustive. The circumstances of each case will dictate what information is needed, and the evidential weight to be attributed to each factor.

I will now address the practical operation of the habitual residence condition, HRC. While decisions to the effect that applicants satisfy HRC can be made in the vast majority — more than 90% — of cases at claim acceptance stage on the basis of answers given on the primary claim forms, complex cases are examined in more detail. In the case of claims for jobseeker's allowance and one-parent family payment, complex cases are decided within a central HRC unit in the Department' s offices at Townsend Street in Dublin. Statutorily appointed deciding officers, or in the case of supplementary welfare allowance, officers of the health boards who are duly authorised to determine entitlement, decide on whether a person satisfies the HRC. Each case is dealt with in its own right and a decision is based on application of the guidelines to the circumstances of that case. Decisions can be appealed to the independent social welfare appeals office or in the case of supplementary welfare allowance to a health board appeals officer and, if necessary subsequently, to the independent social welfare appeals office.

A person who fails to satisfy the habitual residence condition and is suffering financial hardship may apply to the Health Service Executive for an exceptional needs payment under the supplementary welfare allowance scheme. Such payments are not subject to the habitual residence condition. Non-nationals who do not have any means of support may also be assisted by the Reception and Integration Agency to travel back to their home country.

I will now outline some high level summary statistics. I have already mentioned that the vast majority of all claims for the relevant social welfare payments satisfy HRC and that the evidence for such a determination is obvious at claim acceptance stage. The following statistics, therefore, refer only to complex HRC cases that required a more detailed examination of the HRC issue. During the period from 1 May 2004, when HRC was introduced, to 31 December 2007, the overall total number of claims that required such detailed examination was 64,666 and these were made by persons from more than 150 countries. Overall, 75% of the claims involving complex HRC issues were allowed. Disallowances amounted to 25% of the total decided and, of those disallowed, the vast majority, 73%, were in regard to jobseeker's allowance claims. These overall decisions statistics represent the average rates across all schemes and for claimants of all nationalities.

The operation of the condition was reviewed by the Department in 2006 and the report of the review was published in 2007. The full content of the review may be accessed on the Department's website www.welfare.ie. Following the review the operational guidelines for the scheme are currently being revised to ensure consistency in the application of the condition and to take account of the variety of individual situations which can arise.

I will now touch on some issues that have arisen since the HRC was introduced. The issues in question include the following: EU-EEA nationals; religious missionary cases; returning Irish emigrants; and child benefit for the children of asylum seekers. With regard to child benefit for EU-EEA nationals, EU Regulation 1408/71 deals with social security benefits for migrant workers. The provisions of these regulations require that all EU nationals are treated in the same way as Irish nationals. For example, people who are nationals of countries within the European Economic Area and nationals of Switzerland who are employed or self-employed in Ireland and who pay Irish social insurance contributions, PRSI, or are receiving Irish jobseeker's benefit do not have to satisfy the habitual residence condition to receive family benefits. Since May 2005 one-parent family payments and family income supplement have been classified as family benefits along with non-contributory guardian's payment and child benefit.

The same regulation also confirms the right to child benefit from the country in which the worker is employed, regardless of where the children reside. On this basis, Irish child benefit must be payable to EU nationals who are working in Ireland while taking account of any child benefit entitlement in the member state their children are living in. For this purpose a "worker" also includes a person who has worked in the host country and is subsequently unemployed and in receipt of jobseeker's benefit. The application of HRC to jobseeker's allowance or disability allowance to claims from EU nationals who do not have an employment history in Ireland is fully compatible with the EU regulations.

In December 2004, the European Commission raised a number of issues concerning the compliance of HRC with EU law in regard to workers and their families. Following a full examination of the matter the Commission satisfied itself that Ireland complies fully with the European Court of Justice case law in this respect and terminated the infringement proceedings in April 2006.

With regard to religious missionary cases, in early 2005, representatives of the Department met the Irish Missionary Union to discuss the entitlement to non-contributory State pension for Irish missionaries returning temporarily to Ireland for short periods. Prior to the introduction of HRC such persons had often claimed and been paid the pension when they returned to Ireland for holidays or medical treatment. The Department advised that all applicants for the schemes covered by HRC had to satisfy the condition and that an exception could not be made in favour of any group or nationality. The Department further advised that missionaries who were coming back to Ireland on a permanent basis, for example, to retire, would still qualify for a non-contributory State pension on the grounds that their centre of interest was now here. While exact details of occupation of claimants assessed under the habitual residence condition are not maintained, it is estimated that approximately 100 non-contributory pension claims made by religious persons during temporary visits to Ireland have been disallowed since 1 May 2004.

With regard to returning Irish emigrants, for the period from 1 May 2004 to 31 December 2007, the number of claims with complex HRC issues decided in respect of Irish citizens was 16,242, of which 1,684 or approximately 10% were disallowed. EU legislation prohibits discrimination between nationals of EU member states in the context of freedom of movement of workers and their access to social security or social assistance entitlements. Therefore, national legislation cannot provide advantages to non-resident Irish nationals on short visits here without extending the provisions to all EU nationals under the same conditions. However, it must be emphatically emphasised that Irish nationals returning to live here on a permanent basis should experience no difficulty in demonstrating that they satisfy the requirements of the habitual residence condition.

With regard to child benefit for the children of asylum seekers, there has always been a residence condition for child benefit. When introduced in 1944 in section 3 of the Children's Allowances Act 1944, a two-year residence condition was applied to non-Irish claimants. A revision in 1946 in the Children's Allowances (Amendment) Act provided that a qualified child must be ordinarily resident in the State, and defined a qualified person as a person with whom a qualified child normally resides. These provisions are still retained in sections 219 and 220 of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005. The inclusion of child benefit within the scope of HRC makes the application of this condition to the claimant more explicit than the previous wording, and replaces "ordinary" residence with "habitual" residence, a term more frequently used and more clearly defined in social security case law.

A person who is still in the asylum process has not yet received permission to reside in Ireland and, therefore, cannot be considered to be resident, let alone habitually resident. The footnote in the speaking note provided refers to a judgment in 2003 by the Chief Justice, Mr. Justice Murray, on this point. For this reason, persons within the asylum-seeking process do not qualify for child benefit. The welfare and rights of asylum seekers and their families are addressed by the direct provision supports that are the responsibility of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, not the Department of Social and Family Affairs. Where refugee status or right-to-remain status is granted to such persons, they are accepted as being habitually resident and are therefore entitled to child benefit in respect of their qualifying children. With regard to migrant workers, to ensure compliance with the European code of social security, the child benefit guidelines of the Department indicate that periods of bona fide employment or self-employment should normally be accepted as evidence of habitual residence.

That concludes my summary of the operation of the habitual residence condition. I and my colleagues will be pleased to expand or explain any aspects of the matter as may be required by the committee.

I welcome the departmental officials. I draw the delegates' attention to the child care supplement, which is separate to this issue but offers an interesting parallel. This supplement was introduced to assist parents with the considerable expense of child care. All persons residing and working in Ireland who satisfy the eligibility conditions, even if their children reside in another country, will receive this payment. That is fair. In the instance of child benefit, however, even where their children are resident in this country, asylum seekers are not eligible for payment. This represents a strange contradiction within the system. Such persons do not have to pay for accommodation and food is provided, although it is not always suitable to their cultural requirements, but they must cope with the cost of living in this country. Even though their children are resident in the State, they are not entitled to this benefit.

Mr. Rice explained that the European Court of Justice has determined that five factors are relevant in determining whether a person is habitually resident. Mr. Rice observed that no single factor is conclusive and that the five factors are not necessarily exhaustive. My concern is focused on the inconsistencies in the process of determining habitual residence. Many Members have given examples of this to the Minister in the Dáil. There seems little doubt that there are inconsistencies in the decisions made by different deciding officers.

I asked Ms Blackwell earlier about the discrepancy between her figure of 3,000 for the number of children affected by the habitual residence condition in respect of the child benefit payment and the Minister's figure of 341. She said part of the reason is that community welfare officers are advising people that there is no point in applying for the payment. Alongside the apparent inconsistencies in the decisions made by different deciding officers, how can the Department be sure that community welfare officers are offering the correct advice to people who seek their help? If they are also making incorrect and inconsistent decisions, people are being given no chance because they are being wiped out of the system before they even enter it.

What level of ongoing training is provided for deciding officers and community welfare officers on legislation and policy to ensure there is consistency in their decisions? What checks and balances exist in the system to help ensure consistency? It seems facetious to suggest that people who have been deemed ineligible for child benefit can seek an exceptional needs payment from the HSE. It is often difficult to secure such a payment. In County Laois, for example, asylum seekers are accommodated in a remote location and cannot afford the taxi fare to the nearest HSE office. It is not fair to offer this as a solution.

In his annual report in 2006, the chief appeals officer expressed concern to the decisions advisory office about the adequacy of safeguards adopted by the Department to ensure consistency. What actions has the Department taken on foot of that report to address these concerns? The considerable delay in the processing of appeals to the social welfare appeals office is another difficulty. I accept it is an independent agency but it is resourced by the State, perhaps, as it might claim, not adequately. What is the average time for the processing of appeals? The delays are causing considerable difficulty for people.

Mr. Rice mentioned that the European Commission and the European Court of Justice have examined our policy on habitual residence. Did they specifically examine its impact in respect of the child benefit payment? I ask Mr. Rice to refer specifically to the relevant international conventions with which the provision may be in conflict, with particular reference to Articles 2, 3 and 26 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. What discussions have taken place between the Department of Social and Family Affairs, the Office of the Minister for Children and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform in deciding whether or not social welfare policy in respect of the habitual residence condition is in conflict with the Government's children's strategy?

I will attend a meeting of the Joint Committee on the Constitutional Amendment on Children later today to discuss the proposed referendum on children's rights. What negotiations have the departmental officials had with the Office of the Minister for Children? Does the Department plan to make a submission to that committee? I would not be prepared to support a referendum proposal that was not applicable to all children residing in the State. Do the officials have concerns that the referendum proposal could conflict with the restrictions arising from the habitual residence condition?

I welcome the delegation from the Department. My first question relates to the alleged inconsistencies in decisions in respect of the habitual residence condition. Even where two individuals are in apparently similar circumstances, living in the same type of accommodation and resident in the State for the same length of time, one will be deemed eligible for payment and the other not. What steps are being taken by the Department to ensure there is consistency in decisions taken throughout the State?

The delegates from FLAC explained how people reported that they have been deemed eligible for one welfare payment only to be subsequently deemed ineligible for another. What is the justification for that? If a person qualifies under the habitual residence condition, he or she should be eligible in all cases, irrespective of the particular payment. Does Mr. Rice accept this is a valid criticism of how the system works? If so, what steps is the Department taking to address it?

The point was made earlier that a high percentage of social welfare appeals are upheld. Does the Department have any data on appeals based specifically on the habitual residence condition? What is happening when these cases go to the appeals officer?

A significant body of work has been undertaken by the Department on the issue of child poverty and there is great expertise within the Department. What is Mr. Rice's view on where Ireland stands in regard to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child given our discrimination between different children living in this country? Why does the Department seem concerned that providing child benefit to children in direct provision will in some way pose a threat to the State or encourage welfare tourism? What is the thinking behind this?

I welcome the officials from the Department. I have sympathy with some of the points made by my colleagues. I refer Mr. Rice to the earlier part of his submission. In south-west Dublin, particularly in Tallaght, Templeogue and Firhouse, there are occasionally issues involving returning missionaries. Mr. Rice should assure me that the Department continues to take some care in this regard.

As for returning Irish emigrants, having made representations several times, I am unsure I would completely accept or stand over what the Department does. Mr. Rice should provide some clarification. I note that in the latter part of point No. 3 in his submission, Mr. Rice says people should experience no difficulty in demonstrating they satisfy the requirements of the habitual residence condition, HRC. I have encountered cases where people had much difficulty in doing so. While the position may be changing somewhat, for some time Ireland has stressed that those who lived and worked abroad should return. FÁS and other organisations have spent much time in promoting that idea. I seek assurances that the Department is examining its procedures in this respect because I could provide evidence of difficulties. Returning emigrants often have been obliged to fight to get help, at least initially. I seek assurance that the Department continues to examine its position and I await Mr. Rice's clarification.

I wish to explore further the issue raised by my colleague, Deputy Enright. It is hard to explain to someone born and reared in Ireland who left for a short time that he or she cannot get child benefit although the allowance is given to children of parents who work here. I wish to spell out in more detail the case I mentioned earlier. A young girl went to Korea as a missionary. She met a Korean man, married him and had a child. Her father became seriously ill and both she and her husband were obliged to give up their jobs to come home with the child. They found themselves in limbo and cost the father's family a great deal of money although they were saving the State an enormous debt. Inconsistencies arise in this regard. Part of the reason she was not entitled to get benefit was the Department's insistence on her making a commitment to remain here. As a missionary, she could not do so without putting much thought into it.

The accommodation centre at St. Patrick's College houses many people seeking asylum. I visited the centre with other Oireachtas colleagues and heard of inconsistencies between the different regions in which such people live, particularly in respect of the community welfare service. The differences simply are unreal. The community welfare system in the Cavan-Monaghan region operates with difficulty due to the executive's shortage of funding arising from the increase in population in counties Meath and Louth. However, the inconsistencies between the different hostels in which such people lived were unbelievable. This issue must be considered seriously. While the Department does not deal directly with community welfare, this issue is relevant to the point Mr. Rice made previously that someone who could not survive under this regime had the alternative of approaching the community welfare service. There is no consistency in this.

Deputy Charlie O’Connor took the Chair.

I will concentrate on the appeals process, in which securing an outcome seems to take forever. Has reform been proposed in this regard? Has the Department tried to make the process of getting a determination more efficient? How many appeals are before the Department at present? How many staff work in the appeals unit?

I thank the officials for their presentation. Yesterday, a person seeking asylum visited my office. He has been here for three years, has one child and is expecting another baby. This gentlemen performs all the administrative duties in a community project. Although he is most eager to work and wants to contribute, he cannot. Mr. Rice should address the issue of asylum seekers being able to work while waiting for up to three to five years. It seems sinful to leave people without income or a role in the community or without the ability to contribute to it. The aforementioned person is seeking asylum on the grounds of religious persecution and is being put through the wringer to prove such persecution. My colleagues have referred to inconsistencies and Mr. Rice should outline the criteria under which people must prove they are being persecuted. This seems hard-hearted and cruel.

I concur with Deputy Crawford and the vice chairman on the issue of returning emigrants. People have approached me who have experienced the utmost difficulty and have been treated in an appallingly insensitive manner in respect of their rights. A lady who returned from the United States with her three children is unable to claim child benefit. Having been obliged to flee a violent husband and return to Ireland with nothing, this Irish citizen was treated with disdain. Mr. Rice should address this issue, which is about real people rather than statistics. While members can discuss percentages, the people I represent are seriously affected and should be dealt with as individuals.

Mr. Eddie Rice

I hope I have noted all the questions.

Mr. Rice will be fine so long as he provides all the answers.

Mr. Eddie Rice

That might be the difficult part.

I will protect Mr. Rice as much as possible.

Mr. Eddie Rice

Good. I will start with the last question because it is freshest in my mind. While I am not trying to pass the buck, issues pertaining to the asylum process are a matter for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Whether asylum seekers are allowed to work is a matter exclusively for that Department and I would not care to comment on it.

As for the return of Irish people who had emigrated, given EU case law and the aforementioned five factors, there should be no difficulty for a returning emigrant to demonstrate that he or she is habitually resident. This should not be a problem. However, one cannot be habitually resident in more than one place and doubt might arise in the case, for example, of a person who had lived in America for many years, as to whether that person still had substantial ties to America or wherever. This might create some difficulties. In general however, everything I know about the system suggests that people who return to Ireland to live on a permanent basis will have no difficulty.

Those who return to Ireland to care for a loved one while the latter still lives may not have returned on a permanent basis. However, surely such people deserve carer's allowance and child benefit for the period in which they remain, when they are originally Irish residents and have returned solely for that purpose.

Mr. Eddie Rice

While I have no information on that particular case, I suspect the person in question would have difficulty under the habitual residence condition. The Department cannot extend conditions to Irish people that would not be extended to all other European Union citizens on the same basis. Once one makes a single exception, one may be obliged to extend it to others. I can see that this may cause difficulty for the person whose permanent centre of interest is not here and who will be leaving the country. I have heard of cases like that where small numbers of people, about 100, who came over to care for people have been refused.

Is that not a contradiction because part of the test for carer's allowance relates to the medical need of the person for whom one is caring? When Mr. Rice talks about opening that up to other EU nationals, that would not be an issue because the person in need must be in Ireland for the carer's allowance?

Mr. Eddie Rice

The habitual residence condition does not apply to the person being cared for, rather, it applies to the applicant. I presume the people who claimed this allowance appealed against the initial disallowing of it and this appeal was, presumably, disallowed. We are stuck with the five European Court of Justice case law factors which are applied to each case. Some people are unsuccessful on it and that is that. We are stuck with the habitual residence condition and the five factors. That is the policy.

Will the Department look at the possibility of getting some leeway for this situation because, as Mr. Rice acknowledges, the numbers are not significant? However, it is a serious reality for the families concerned.

Mr. Eddie Rice

I am not aware of all the implications of this.

It would be reasonable for the committee to expect that Mr. Rice would return to the Department and convey to it the views expressed. A number of colleagues are making that point.

Will Mr. Rice address the questions in the order they were put to him?

Mr. Eddie Rice

We are just gathering our thoughts.

I am just being helpful to other colleagues.

Mr. Eddie Rice

A parliamentary question was answered the week before last by the Minister. He said that the habitual residence condition must apply to carer's allowance on the same basis that it applies to all the other schemes. It is the policy.

Mr. Rice might take note of what I said. Will he deal with the questions in the order they were put to him?

Mr. Eddie Rice

The next question was about inconsistency. I know somebody said that we did not want to talk about statistics and I do not wish to talk about them. During the period--

Does Mr. Rice not wish to talk about them?

Mr. Eddie Rice

From the introduction of the habitual residence condition on 1 May to the present, the number of applications received by the Department for the schemes covered by the habitual residence condition was roughly 600,000. Each application must be examined to establish whether the applicant satisfies the habitual residence condition. The number of applicants who failed to satisfy the habitual residence condition amounted to approximately 16,000. We do not like statistics but we can see this figure as a percentage of 600,000. When we talk about inconsistencies, we are saying that more than 90% of claims are allowed immediately. Any inconsistencies only apply to--

It is within these categories. It does not relate to all claims.

Mr. Eddie Rice

I am trying to place it in context for the number of applications received. We met people from various groups and have always extended the offer to them that if they have any information about where an applicant has been treated poorly or a matter has been dealt with incorrectly, they can send us particulars of individual cases. We do not get many of them.

In light of the review of the operation of the habitual residence condition, a number of recommendations were made. In light of these, new guidelines have been drawn up and are ready to go. When they are ready, which should be in the coming weeks, they will be placed on the Department's website. To coincide with the publication of the new guidelines, extensive training will be given to all departmental staff who make decisions in respect of the habitual residence condition. In addition, there is a special unit in the Department which liaises closely with the HSE in respect of community welfare officers. We will facilitate that unit in providing training to community welfare officers to ensure consistency.

We have also inserted a new provision in the guidelines. We are suggesting that when deciding officers are deciding whether someone fulfils the requirements of the habitual residence condition, for example for the one parent family payment, they should be mindful of other recent decisions about different schemes that have been made in respect of the habitual residence condition. If it is has already been decided that this person fulfils the habitual residence condition for child benefit, deciding officers should be mindful of that fact when making their decision.

Sometimes circumstances change. Some time can elapse between when the initial decision is made and when the appeal goes to the appeals officer. Circumstances will change. Even one inconsistent case is a case too many. I do not want to sound defeatist. I know we are only talking about a small number being disallowed but that is at the end of a process. There will always be a small number of inconsistent decisions but it is our job to ensure that the numbers are kept to a minimum.

For people disallowed as a result of an inconsistent decision, we always have the fallback of the social welfare appeals office.

We know how long that takes. If a person is deemed to be compliant with the habitual residence condition in respect of one claim, surely that is his or her status in respect of any other claims?

What does the Department do if an appeal is upheld by the social welfare appeals office? Does it go back to that deciding officer and discover why he or she made that decision? What checks and balances are there within the system to ensure that the deciding officer makes the accurate decision next time? Has the Department any way of knowing whether particular deciding officers make more of these mistakes or whether it concerns individual cases around the country? How does the Department check that out?

Mr. Eddie Rice

I do not want to keep quoting statistics but the number of cases that go to appeal is relatively small in the context of all the claims. When an appeals officer makes a decision, he or she may have a different set of circumstances than that faced by the deciding officer. Fundamentally, there will be a time lag, which may be a significant factor in an individual case.

The fact that an appeals officer makes a decision which differs from the original decision of a deciding officer does not necessarily mean the deciding officer's decision was incorrect. We have an appeals system in the same way as we have a system of higher courts. It does not necessarily mean that decisions given by lower courts or deciding officers are necessarily incorrect.

If we saw something coming back to us from an appeals hearing which indicated that a deciding officer had done something wrong and we felt there was a need for clarification, we would issue a circular and possibly supplement it with training. As I indicated earlier, the new guidelines are coming out and there will be extensive training to supplement them and ensure there is absolute consistency.

Deputy Shortall raised the matter of being compliant with the habitual residence condition. It is worth repeating that we have included in the new guidelines and will make it a feature of the training that deciding officers should have due regard to previous claims when making decisions. If someone is already HRC, I would expect the deciding officer to maintain it. A good reason would be needed to decide otherwise. While we give guidelines and training to deciding officers, they are appointed under statute and independent. We do not direct them to make specific decisions in cases.

I made a note regarding the social welfare appeals office. I kicked to touch regarding the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform a moment ago, but I hope I am not giving the impression that I do so all of the time. The social welfare appeals office is independent under the chief appeals officer, who is responsible for the office's efficient operation, etc. I am not in a position to comment on how it does its business, the length of time it takes to dispose of that business or its resources. I apologise for being unable to provide more information.

A question was asked about the chief appeals officer's comments in his 2006 report regarding concerns over the consistency of decisions. On foot of that report, did the Department take action to try to address the concerns?

Mr. Eddie Rice

We will address the inconsistencies in the context of the new guidelines and training. I am unsure as to how many cases were alluded to in the chief appeals officer's report or on how many cases his comments were based. A few years ago, I tried to elicit information on how many cases were being referred to in a report of the chief appeals officer — the number was small.

Mr. Rice makes the point that the numbers are small, which I accept, but any of us can examine the information regarding all of the Department's decisions. Constituents can come to us and we can tell them to what they are entitled. However, it is in the grey area that these people have difficulties. It is not fair to speak of the number as being small because those are the people with the problem. It does not matter to them if they are on their own or if there is another 3,000 people.

Mr. Eddie Rice

I accept that fully, but the HRC is based on the European Court of Justice case law and the five factors. Unfortunately, it is not a simple black and white matter, namely, if someone has paid so many contributions, he or she qualifies for illness benefits or job seekers benefit. The matter is more complex than that and all of the factors must be weighed. Under certain circumstances, two people considering the same factors could arrive at different conclusions, although we hope such does not occur. It is that type of situation. The European Court of Justice in its exhortations suggested that this is not a box-ticking exercise and that someone cannot decide on people going through because they have more or fewer than 25 points under the regime, for example. It is not a complex matter in most cases because most people satisfy the HRC.

It is important to point out that we are not asking about the rate of refusal in the context of the overall number of applications for social welfare payments. We are discussing specific categories of people and we would appreciate it if Mr. Rice would confine his comments. We are looking for data in respect of these categories. It seems as if the five people before the committee have little data for us in respect of the issue being discussed.

Elderly people who have never lived anywhere else in the country come to me constantly because they must fill in a HRC form. I have no problem in that regard, but for them to be lumped in for statistical purposes as my colleague, Deputy Shortall, stated is madness. It is a question of examining a form and seeing that the person is Irish and has lived in a place all of his or her life. We are trying to get the facts concerning the people with problems in the small category under discussion, not the other 600,000 plus who must fill in a form that is only necessary under EU law.

Mr. Eddie Rice

I will ask my colleague, Mr. Baldrick, to answer concerning child benefits.

Mr. Roy Baldrick

I can give statistics in that regard, a matter noted by FLAC in its submission. To give the committee the background to the consistency of decisions, all decisions are made by two executive officers in an attempt to maintain as much consistency as we can. We make HRC decisions on an approximate average of 50,000 claims per year, some 10% of which need detailed examinations because the situation is not obvious from the claim forms. All social welfare claim forms include standard questions that allow decisions on 90% of cases to be made easily at an early stage. In the case of, for example, a non-national returning to Ireland after living abroad, further examination is necessary. One of two executive officers will examine cases from the remaining 10%, between 5,000 or 6,000.

Since the introduction of the habitual residence condition in May 2004, we have considered 22,000 claims in detail and 1,117 were refused. By mid-January, the number of people disallowed on the basis of HRC was 1,034 whereas the balance was allowed on a revised decision because of, for example, a change of status. People may have applied as asylum seekers and have since acquired Irish-born child status or got a stamp 4, in which case they would be automatically allowed. They may have started working and be covered under EU Regulation 1408/71. Of the 1,034 currently disallowed, 557 are in the asylum process and 231 are EU nationals who are not covered by Regulation 1408/71. The latter might be, for example, Polish or Romanians who have come to Ireland and are unemployed and are subject to the full HRC test because their centre of interest and future intentions are uncertain. If they start work or their status changes, they can re-apply and be re-assessed.

To give the committee a flavour of what we are discussing, I have the 2006 statistics on child benefit appeals. I have the 2007 figures, but members will understand that they are incomplete because the most recent months have not been considered yet. A member raised the issue of the timescale for appeals. Yesterday, I dealt with an appeal lodged in July. As Mr. Rice pointed out, how long an appeal takes is beyond our control because the body in question is independent. The total number of new claim and child benefit appeals in 2006 was 123, 17 of which were allowed and the balance was disallowed or withdrawn. One is outstanding.

Were they all HRC cases?

Mr. Roy Baldrick

The majority were HRC. As they were listed as new claims, it is unlikely that they were refused for another reason. These are the basic statistics on child benefit claims. Deputy Enright referred to the figure of 341, which relates only to child benefit disallowances between January and August 2007. This was the sample examined in the parliamentary question. The total number of disallowances on child benefit was 2,117.

Ms Blackwell estimated the number of children affected. The average family size for non-nationals is 2.4, slightly higher than the Irish average. If one extrapolates the figures from that it is potentially 2,000. We do not know how many people do not apply but the figure is approximate.

In the Border areas, some children are born in Northern Ireland and the mother may give a Northern Ireland address for hospital reasons. When these people apply for child benefit they have major problems. This has got much more difficult in recent times. In one family there was no problem receiving benefits for the first three children born in Northern Ireland but the mother applied for child benefit in respect of the fourth child in July and has not yet received it.

Mr. Roy Baldrick

Obviously I am not familiar with the case but the habitual residence condition will not apply. This condition only applies when one applies for the first time. If the mother has claimed in respect of three other children she will not be subject to the habitual residence condition. If there is a problem with this application it is not related to the habitual residence condition.

Mr. Roy Baldrick

Any child born in the common travel area to a parent resident in the common travel area will have no difficulty with the habitual residence condition. They are deemed to satisfy this condition at first glance.

Is there a backlog in that section?

Mr. Roy Baldrick

We have a backlog but benefit in respect of the vast majority of children born in Ireland is automatically paid once they are registered with the General Registry Office. We have a backlog in respect of those coming into the country. Part of this is due to the habitual residence condition. More checking must be done but volume is also an issue. Volumes have substantially increased over the past two or three years. We receive an average of 350 claims per week, for 700-800 children, from those moving to Ireland. Immigration is a major factor affecting us.

I am interested in the point made by Mr. Baldrick — that one must satisfy the habitual residence condition when one applies for the first child but not for subsequent children. Is that not the same principle as was discussed earlier, where one satisfies the habitual residence condition in respect of one benefit? Why is one not entitled to all benefits?

Mr. Benny Swinburne

It depends on the conditions for the payment. Child benefit is a universal payment, made to anyone regardless of circumstances.

It is not paid, that is the very point I am making.

Mr. Benny Swinburne

It is in the case of people who comply with the habitual residence condition.

The Department operates this system in the section dealing with child benefit. Why can that approach not be applied when one applies for other payments, so that when one applies for a benefit and is found to satisfy the habitual residence condition, one would be deemed to satisfy the habitual residence condition in respect of subsequent payments?

Mr. Benny Swinburne

They might be refused payment under the conditions of the scheme, not the habitual residence condition.

Yes, that goes without saying. Why should the habitual residence condition be queried again when applying for a second payment? There is no justification for that.

Mr. Roy Baldrick

There will be situations where there is a time factor between an application for one benefit and another. An example was cited earlier where someone applied for child benefit, with a stamp 4, and was refused. As a matter of course an applicant would not be refused for a stamp 4 but, if an asylum seeker applied on a Friday and the application was examined two weeks later — by which time the applicant had received a stamp 4 — the deciding officer would make the decision based on the evidence on the claim form. Claimants' circumstances change from week to week and from when they apply for one scheme to the time they apply for another scheme. Every claim is examined on its merits according to the information when the claim is decided.

If one is applying for child benefit one is dealt with in one office and if one is applying for rent supplement one is dealt with by a different office. It is not reasonable that we can make a decision that will remain with someone the rest of their life.

When the application for rent allowance is being considered is it not possible to see on someone's file that they have already satisfied the habitual residence condition for another payment?

Mr. Roy Baldrick

Absolutely.

So why does the situation referred to by FLAC exist, where some people are deemed to have satisfied the habitual residence condition in respect of one payment but this is queried in respect of another payment?

Mr. Roy Baldrick

As a matter of course, the deciding officers I am familiar with are told to check if there are other benefits where the habitual residence condition has been applied. As Mr. Rice alluded to earlier, this is taken into account.

It should be stronger than taking it into account or having due regard. If it is established that someone complies with the habitual residence condition, it should be accepted that the person complies with it.

Mr. Roy Baldrick

Yes. In the majority of cases, that would probably be the situation but people's circumstances change over months and years and we must examine every situation on its merits. There is a danger in assuming something that might not be the case. There should be consistency.

It is not likely that somebody would qualify at one point and not a month later, although the reverse could happen.

Mr. Roy Baldrick

I can give Deputy Shortall an example. If someone was in the asylum process and had been granted a stamp 4 and then served with a deportation order. The circumstances have changed and unless the deciding officer was aware of that the changed circumstances would not be taken into account. I am not suggesting this is widespread but changes happen.

Mr. Eddie Rice

I ask Mr. Melville to address some international convention issues.

Mr. Philip Melville

FLAC mentioned these matters and Deputy Enright sought more comment than what was in our initial statement. Before we brought in the habitual residence condition in legislation in 2004, we sought the advice of the Attorney General regarding compliance with international conventions. We specifically mentioned the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, to which FLAC referred. The advice we received was that because the habitual residence condition applies to Irish and non-Irish people without distinction, it is conformable with the convention.

Regarding asylum seekers, where direct provision is used rather than a cash payment, there is freedom within the UN convention to cover that. Our advice was that the alternate method of providing was suitable. We put in reports periodically on all of these conventions.

Conformity with the more general conventions that have a headline right is examined with regard to more detailed conventions. If the Convention on the Rights of the Child states that children must have access to social security benefit, this will be examined under the conditions of the social security convention. For the UN, it is the ILO convention and for the Council of Europe, the European code of social security. Both conventions allow that benefit may be a periodical payment or the provision of food, clothing, housing, holidays or domestic help. A specific alternative is allowed in the more detailed conventions.

What about the children's strategy?

Mr. Eddie Rice

I am afraid I am not able to comment on any comparison with the children's strategy.

I could make the point as a proposal to the committee. The officials are explaining the position but if we wish to deal with the child benefit issue it is a political decision. Nothing in what the officials have said prevents it from being dealt with differently. Mr. Rice is providing us with the facts he has available to him. I disagree with them and I believe they are questionable. I appreciate they have come from the Attorney General but those working for the Free Legal Advice Centres also have legal qualifications and they interpret it differently.

I propose the committee requests the Minister to re-examine the issue from a political perspective. As has been made clear by the examples given, it is not fair to state that direct provision is a sufficient substitute for the child benefit payment. While people are provided with basic accommodation and food we do not provide them with the same opportunities which Irish children receive. This point has been made by many schools and teachers can see it clearly in their classrooms. From this perspective, it is unfair.

Having no distinction on the basis of nationality might look fine on paper but a real distinction exists. Irish children living here receive it and those affected are not Irish. The children of asylum seekers, migrant workers and those waiting for decisions are not Irish. We can only disagree on it but the decision must be made at a different level and unfortunately the people sitting opposite me cannot make it.

Does Deputy Shortall wish to speak?

On the question of requiring returning Irish emigrants to settle permanently in Ireland, I presume it is common for people to return to care for elderly relatives and they may not intend to stay on a long-term basis. If it is decided at policy level that the habitual residence condition, HRC, will be applied to these people, they may not meet the residency requirement.

I do not understand why the Department needs to apply it to these people. What is stopping the Department extending entitlement to Irish citizens who live here for whatever reason or for whatever length of time? In his presentation, Mr. Rice stated EU legislation prohibits this group from being excluded. Since when does EU competence extend to social assistance payments? I am not aware of it. Perhaps Mr. Rice will tell us either today or through a note sent afterwards what is his legal advice on this.

With regard to Deputy Enright's point I am advised we can signal to the Minister that she wishes to raise the matter when we meet him on 20 February. If colleagues are agreeable we will certainly arrange it.

I second Deputy Enright's proposal.

We do not have any disagreement on it. I do not want to rush Mr. Rice or my colleagues but I am aware the witnesses from the Pensions Board have been waiting for a while and we must also facilitate them. I would be grateful if Mr. Rice dealt with the remaining questions.

Mr. Eddie Rice

The main point relates to the returning Irish. The HRC applies to them--

The Department has decided that it applies to them.

Mr. Eddie Rice

No, it is EU law that it applies to them. We cannot make distinctions in applying the five factors on the basis of nationality.

I am surprised this is the case and that Irish citizens returning to their native country can be denied social assistance payment. It is fine if this is the case but I wish to see the legal advice the Department received on it.

Mr. Eddie Rice

Is the Deputy discussing carers?

Mr. Eddie Rice

This was introduced through a decision made in the Dáil. It is in the legislation.

Mr. Rice stated in his presentation that EU legislation prevents the Department from acting on this.

Mr. Philip Melville

To clarify the point being made, we must apply HRC to people applying for carer's allowance because it is in our legislation. The point we are making here is that consideration of a change in the legislation to exclude carer's allowance from HRC must take into consideration the fact that EU nationals who come here would be allowed to avail of the same exclusion and they may leave their children in another country and satisfy the conditions for being a carer to an elderly Irish person.

Do EU nationals come here to care for their parents?

Mr. Philip Melville

One does not need to care for a parent to qualify for carer's allowance. One can provide care to anybody who needs it.

I am surprised if this is the case. Is it open to us to table an amendment to the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill to change this?

Mr. Philip Melville

Yes.

The Minister could do so if he were so minded.

The question is whether the Minister can give an advantage to Irish citizens under social welfare law and I do not believe he can.

Of course he can.

Mr. Philip Melville

Under EU legislation one cannot distinguish between Irish nationals and other EU nationals. If it is extended to Irish nationals it must be extended to EU nationals.

I do not claim to be an expert but it may have an effect.

Does the Department have information on the number of non-nationals who apply for carer's allowance? Is it an actual issue as opposed to a theoretical possibility?

Mr. Philip Melville

I have no information on this.

I am anxious to deal with the remaining questions.

To complete this point, will Mr. Rice provide the committee with the legal advice received on not being allowed to discriminate in favour of Irish citizens?

Likewise with regard to the child benefit issue.

Mr. Eddie Rice

We can give the gist of the legal advice furnished by the Office of the Attorney General but it is privileged information and we cannot distribute it. We have informed the committee of the gist of what it contains.

Will Mr. Rice provide the committee with a note on the legal advice?

Mr. Eddie Rice

Yes.

Does Mr. Rice wish to add anything?

Mr. Eddie Rice

We were hopping back and forward to various matters. We have dealt with all the issues raised, it is hoped to the satisfaction of the committee.

That being the case, I thank Mr. Rice and his colleagues for coming before the committee and providing us with the information.

I would appreciate receiving the notes requested prior to taking the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill.

I will ask the secretariat to convey the views of the committee in this regard directly to the Minister prior to the meeting with him. Obviously, Mr. Rice has his own role to play.

It is not really the Minister's business that we request a note from the Department. It is an administrative matter.

Deputy Seymour Crawford and others were upset that no Government Deputies were present at the previous meeting. However, I must attend another meeting now and I will try to return. I apologise. I already missed a meeting of the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights of which I am also a member.

I do not know who is the Government convenor.

I was struck by the fact that no Government representatives were present for most of this meeting, apart from the person in the Chair. That is unacceptable. We are all busy. I signal that if this continues I intend to call quorums so Deputy Byrne had better get his people in.

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