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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, TRANSPORT, CULTURE AND THE GAELTACHT díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 5 Jun 2012

Pilot Fatigue: Discussion

Apologies have been received from Deputy Brian Stanley and Senators Labhrás Ó Murchú and Ned O'Sullivan. I remind members and witnesses to turn off their mobile telephones. They should not put them on silent mode because it interferes with the communications equipment. As the meeting is being broadcast live I propose that we deal with the matters to be discussed in private session at the end of the meeting and commence with the presentation by the European Aviation Safety Agency.

We will now proceed to the discussion on the modified rules proposed by the European Aviation Safety Agency, EASA, to combat possible safety risks posed by fatigued pilots. I welcome Captain Paul Cullen and Captain Evan Cullen of the Irish Airline Pilots' Association together with their associates, Mr. Philip von Schoppenthau of the European Cockpit Association and Dr. Robert Hunter of the British Airline Pilots Association, who will make a presentation on proposals by the European Aviation Safety Agency regarding flight time limitations, FTLs. Aer passenger safety is a priority for us all and in that regard I welcome the witnesses.

I draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the joint committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person, persons or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I also advise them that the opening statements which they have submitted will be published on the committee’s website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Captain Evan Cullen to proceed with his presentation.

Captain Evan Cullen

I thank the Chairman. By way of a brief introduction, I have been the president of the Irish Airline Pilots' Association, IALPA, for approximately ten years. I am also a serving airline pilot. To my left is Captain Paul Cullen who has clocked up 10,000 hours over 15 years of flying. He is an accredited air accident investigator and is also director of the IALPA safety and technical group. To his left is Mr. Philip von Schoppenthau, general secretary of the European Cockpit Association which represents 38,000 pilots in all European institutions, in particular those related to aviation safety. Since 2009, Mr. von Schoppenthau has been a part of the European Aviation Safety Agency, EASA, rule making group. Further to the left of Mr. Schoppenthau is Dr. Rob Hunter who is a pilot and a medical consultant. He is also the head of safety for the British Airline Pilots Association, BALPA. He is a specialist in aviation medicine and has been a long haul pilot for a number of years. Prior to being a member of BALPA's safety committee he was director of the UK national Health Protection Agency.

At the heart of the position IALPA wishes to present to the committee is the blatant disregard by the European Aviation Safety Agency of science in proposing its new flight time limitations for pilots. One quote from a comprehensive document and inquiry by the UK Select Committee on Transport states: "...the divergence from scientific recommendations is so blatant that we consider they deserve additional attention." Dr. Hunter, who was an expert involved in that inquiry team, will expand on that. Captain Paul Cullen will now make a presentation.

Captain Paul Cullen

Fatigue is a real threat to aviation safety. A tired pilot is a dangerous pilot. As pilots we operate in a 24 hour business. We operate around the clock working our regular schedules involving night-time work, early starts and regular time zone changes. The duty days we work are long and mentally demanding, and flight time limitations about which we are here to discuss, dictate the way a pilot's roster is structured. They determine the daily, weekly and monthly total duty times and the minimum rest required between such duties.

The International Civil Aviation Organization, ICAO, which is an umbrella group of the United Nations, has stated that the sole purpose of flight-time limitations, FTLs, is to limit the working hours of pilots in order to minimise the threat of pilot fatigue but what is fatigue? Scientific study into fatigue began in the 1940s and continues today. We know that fatigue is a physiological state of reduced mental or physical performance capability. It impairs a crew member's alertness and ability to safely operate an aircraft or perform safety related duties. It is caused by sleep loss, extended time spent awake and disruptions to the circadian rhythm, which is the body clock, and workload, be it mental or physical.

Much is known about the relationship between pilot fatigue and accidents. Between 1991 and 2005, almost half of all aircraft accidents worldwide had human error by pilots as a contributory factor. The scientific consensus is that a large proportion of these are related to pilot fatigue. The National Transportation Safety Board in America, the United States Government's primary investigation agency for all modes of transport, has stated that 20% to 30% of all transport accidents have fatigue as a contributory factor. It also estimates that 15% to 20% of all aviation accidents have fatigue as a contributory factor. The Federal Aviation Authority has also stated that operator fatigue is one of the most persistent hazards in all travel modes, including commercial aviation.

The airlines have lobbied and argued that fatigue has not caused any accidents. Fatigue may be significantly under-estimated in many accident reports. It cannot be established by a simple test in the way that can be done with alcohol intoxication, and it will not show up in a post mortem examination. Accidents are rarely caused by a single failure or error. A fatigued crew may deal with a problem in a far less successful manner than a fully rested one, and many accidents in recent years have been attributed to pilot fatigue.

Members can see a list on the screen from a crude Google search of aircraft accidents involving fatigue. Since the early 1990s, over 500 people have lost their lives as a result of accidents which had fatigue as a contributory factor. It is worth bearing in mind also that for all fatal accidents there are many non-fatal accidents or incidents, or near misses for want of a better word. If we think of an iceberg, the visible part of the iceberg is the smallest part. If we think of that as the accident, below the level of water is the large number of incidents, occurrences and near misses that go unreported.

Recent studies of Scandinavian pilots have revealed that 80% of Scandinavian pilots have made fatigue related errors. A total of 40% have been involved in incidents and 50% have fallen asleep without warning their colleague.

Pilots like Dr. Hunter to my left undergo regular medical examinations once or twice per year depending on their age and their health. These examinations are carried out by aeromedical examiners who are specialists with a specialist knowledge of aviation medicine. A total of 70% of those doctors surveyed believe that fatigue is increasing. Some 75% of doctors believe that a quarter of pilots are too tired to fly safely, and 60% of pilots think that pilots are falling asleep in flight.

A recent study of a UK airline revealed that 45% of pilots were severely fatigued. That is particularly frightening when one considers that UK pilots operate under different rules to most of Europe - rules that are far more restrictive. Under the general requirement enshrined in international law by ICAO Annexe 6 and European legislation, EASA is required to draw up new flight-time limitations and for these flight-time limitations to be based on scientific and medical evidence.

In 2007, EASA contracted Moebus Aviation to evaluate the current rules. It gathered ten leading European experts and concluded that the current flight-time limitations were deficient and came up with 33 recommendations. EASA's current proposal complies with two of these 33 recommendations. Not surprisingly, there was huge objection to EASA's proposals. As a result EASA commissioned three further independent scientists to review the proposal. The three scientists worked independently of each other, using separate methodology, but their findings were all similar and all supported the original Moebus finding. They also contradict EASA's current proposal.

We argued that the EASA proposal is not based on science, as is required under international and European law. We think it is a deeply misguided attempt to boost airline profits. Although safety can never be absolute, and must always be weighed against productivity, in this case we believe the balance is horribly wrong. We believe the safety risk is unacceptably high and the economic benefit is dubious. It is worth bearing in mind that in 2011 ten European airlines made a profit. Of those ten, one was an Irish airline that made a profit of almost €50 million, and the second was another Irish airline that made a profit of over €500 million.

Under this proposal, European pilots will be asked to fly duties up to 16 hours a day. Science tells us that an accident is 5.5 times more likely if we go over 13 hours. Under European rules, pilots will be expected to work 16 hours, while truck drivers are restricted to ten. Scientific research has told us that pilots will be landing aircraft in a state of fatigue that is four times over the legal blood alcohol limit for flying. Scientists have established a direct link in the deterioration in performance comparable between fatigue and alcohol intoxication.

Science also tells us that night-time duties of 11 hours or more carry an increased risk of fatigue. The original dubious report, commissioned by EASA, and the three independent scientists who were also commissioned by EASA, have all agreed that the maximum night duty of ten hours should be adhered to. However, EASA has gone on to propose a limit of 11 hours.

If the proposal is passed a situation could arise whereby if I were to go to bed at 9 p.m. and wake up at 5 a.m., report for airport stand-by at 7 a.m., I could hang around the airport on duty and at 11 a.m. be asked to operate a flight. That duty could have me back at the airport 14 hours later, at 1 a.m. If I were to be delayed en route, I could be asked and be expected to extend my duty, using my own discretion, by a further two hours. That would have me arriving back in the airport at 3 a.m. having awoken at 5.a.m., some 22 hours later. Bear in mind that, statistically, landing is the most dangerous part of flying, and this would occur some 22 hours after I had awoken.

On 12 February 2009, a commuter flight from Newark to Buffalo, was operated by Colgan Air. As a result of what happened on this flight the US is in the process of implementing new flight-time limitations. It is following an opposite course to EASA. After years of pressure by the National Transport Safety Board, and a high-profile fatigue-related accident, which resulted in 50 people dead, America is now tightening its rules in line with science.

On screen, members of the committee can see the final resting point of the flight that departed on 12 February 2009. After that crash, the NTSB investigation concluded that the probable cause of the accident was pilot mishandling of the aircraft. This caused the aircraft to stall and crash. One of the findings in the report was that the performance of both pilots was likely impaired by fatigue. The aircraft crashed into a house in a suburb of Buffalo, New York. All 49 passengers and crew on the aircraft died, along with the resident of the house.

In its concurring statement to the accident investigation report, the NTSB chairman, Deborah Hersman was critical of the airline industry, including pilot unions, airline management and the regulatory authority in their inadequate response to the issue of pilot fatigue. Ms Hersman said the NTSB had consistently called for the issue to be treated more seriously, and has had it on its most-wanted list of transportation safety improvements since its inception in 1990. She lamented that fatigue-related decisions reflected the economics of the industry, rather than the science of fatigue and human performance. She concluded that: "Flying tired is flying dangerously, and it is a practice that needs to end". As a result of the tragic loss of life, action on pilot fatigue from the US regulator finally took place. In December 2011, the Federal Aviation Authority proposed new flight-time limitations that will, in almost every respect, take a more safety conscious approach than the European ones.

This graph shows rules that would apply to flights leaving Dublin flying westbound to the United States. The upper blue line represents the maximum duty, dependent on the start-time of day, that a European pilot could fly. The lower red line represents the same limits that would apply to an American crew. The blacked curved line in between is what is called the Karolinska sleepiness scale. Anything above this line, is reckoned by Karolinska scientists, will result in medium to severe fatigue. We call this the North Atlantic safety gap, which will open between European and American air safety. We would like to ask EASA if European pilots are capable of working longer hours while remaining safe. What is it about US pilots that they are governed by the scientifically-established limits of human physiology, yet European pilots are not? Why do US passengers deserve a greater level of safety? As pilots, we are the final line of defence, and we do not want to be the weakest link.

I am sure all members of the committee are familiar with the miracle on the Hudson - a catastrophic double-engine failure shortly after take-off from New York's LaGuardia Airport. The US captain, Chesley Sullenberger, landed a stricken Airbus A320 in the Hudson River, saving all the passengers and crew.

Many fatigue-related accidents have happened before Colgan, but Colgan was the final straw. It was a tragic lesson, but the US is now moving towards science-based FTL schemes. This will afford American passengers the protection they deserve. European passengers deserve the same protection, but EASA is doing the opposite. It has decided to ignore seven decades of scientific research, two separate scientific reviews of its proposals involving 13 of the pre-eminent European experts in the area of aircrew fatigue. EASA is placing a bet that everything will be okay. Let us hope it is right. Let us hope it does not take a European Colgan case to prove EASA wrong. European passengers deserve better than that.

Thank you, Captain Cullen. Is anyone else presenting at the moment? No. Before I call members to pose their own questions, I will ask Captain Cullen to clarify a few points for me. As I understand it, the flying regulations have set a ceiling of 900 hours per year for pilots to fly, which works out at about 18 hours flying time per week. In the example cited by Captain Cullen, he mentioned being on call and reporting for work very unusual circumstances. Are most pilots on call? Can Captain Cullen give an example of what a regular working day is, and what the regular flying time would actually be?

I also note that in his presentation Captain Cullen cited a Norwegian-Danish study which said that 50% of pilots were failing asleep in the cockpit without reporting it to their colleague. If a pilot falls asleep in the cockpit, is it a mandatory requirement for this to be reported as part of the flight log? It is a startling statistic if 50% of pilots fall asleep in the cockpit. Applying that statistic globally, it would mean that on one in every two flights everyone in this room would take, a pilot asleep would be asleep in the cockpit. Is this a problem that generally obtains across the European Union or it is more airline specific? I will not ask the witnesses to name airlines but are there airlines licensed to operate within Europe where it has been found that this is a recurring problem?

Captain Evan Cullen

I will answer the first of the Chairman's questions and I will ask Dr. Hunter to answer his question regarding the survey. To give members an example of what the 900 hours represents, if I report for work, flying from Dublin to London and return and then flying to London again and return. That would be a day's work. In terms of the 900 hours, I might only clock up 4.5 to 5 hours of block time. That would be taken out of the 900 hours but a pilot might have put in a ten or 12 hour day. Much of the work done on the ground such as the supervision of the aircraft, renegotiating slot times and all of the hassle associated, particularly in some of the busy airports, with trying to get going is all part of the job. The 900 hours and the so-called 18 hours a week is very much used against us. It is a bit like saying that the only time a Deputy is working is when he or she is standing up in the Dáil. That is exactly what it is like.

That is the only time he has off.

Captain Evan Cullen

It is the only time he has off. It is as if the Members do not work at all unless they are seen in the Dáil. Some of the most fatiguing parts of the job are experienced on the ground. Once one gets going a pilot has the back-up of many people who look after him or her in the air, but once one lands it is different. I will ask Dr. Robert Hunter to deal with the survey.

Dr. Robert Hunter

The point I would make is that from the point of view of accident risk, one's average working hours can have little relevance - it is the working hours at the time of the accident. One might not normally drive when sleep deprived but if one stays up all night and drives the next day, that would put one at huge risk. It is what one is capable of doing within the regulations that are important.

In terms of involuntary sleep where pilots involuntarily fall asleep on the flight deck, in a UK survey 43% of pilots reported having fallen asleep on the flight deck. That is a lifetime report, not on the basis of per flight as the Chairman mentioned.

Does that have to be recorded on the flight log?

Dr. Robert Hunter

No.

There is no recording of that on the flight log. Other events such as turbulence, an issue that presents or an issue involving an accident on the flight journey must be recorded on the log. What Dr. Hunter is saying is that if a pilot falls asleep on a flight, that is not logged.

Dr. Robert Hunter

Correct.

Would Dr. Hunter be in favour of that being logged?

Dr. Robert Hunter

I would be in favour of it being logged but the greater problem is that pilots would not necessarily be aware that they are falling asleep on the flight deck.

There are two pilots on many flights

Dr. Robert Hunter

Yes.

Should it not be mandatory for a pilot on witnessing his or her pilot colleague falling asleep in the adjoining seat to record that in the log book?

Dr. Robert Hunter

I think that is a sensible suggestion.

Captain Evan Cullen

I would be concerned about for what purpose such information would be used and if, for example, it would be used to discipline a pilot.

The witnesses gave us the information that 50% of pilots fall asleep in the cockpit and that could be used as an argument in this respect. If that was recorded in the log, it would not be research that is testable. One would have log recordings from which one could identify such occurrences on particular flights and routes.

Captain Evan Cullen

I fully agree with collecting the information but the difficulty I would have with it is who would use such information and how it would be used. If it was used for the purpose of making aviation safer, I would have no difficulty with it but if it was used for the purpose of disciplining pilots who feel they have to come to work because they are in fear of losing their job, I would be against it. I would have problem regarding who would get the information and I would want a debate on the reason for collecting it.

Passengers would be very keen to know if pilots are falling asleep.

Captain Evan Cullen

They would but they would also be interested to know how many other things pilots have to do that they believe they should not be doing in order to keep their job. It is a well documented fact that one pilot that flies for an Irish airline flew an aircraft a few days after he buried one of his children and the reason given for that in the report was that he was fearful of losing his job and that is the reason he reported for work. Other pilots have told us they have reported for work fatigued when they should not have reported for work but they were fearful of losing their jobs. These are facts.

Mr. Philip von Schoppenthau

There have been several other surveys and in other EU countries and they all come up with roughly the same picture. They show that today pilot fatigue is a reality in the cockpits in Europe. We also hear from our members - we have 38 members from 38 European countries - that fatigue is a heavily unreported incident. One of the main reasons is that many pilots fear that if they report this it could have negative consequences for their job. That is a big problem when it comes to being open about the real state of fatigue.

I am not asking Dr. Hunter to mention airlines but from his organisation's examination of matters is there a correlation in this respect between certain airlines and a variation in the turnaround time operated by some airlines in comparison to others? What are the minimum and maximum turnaround times operated by airlines? This is the time from when a plane is landed on the runaway, pulls in to the sky bridge, passengers disembark, new passengers board and the plane takes off.

Captain Evan Cullen

I have seen aeroplanes do a turnaround in 20 minutes but that is not the issue here. The issue is what is the corporate culture of a particular airline that gives rise to more reporting or to people calling in fatigued. Some airlines have a fatigue protocol where there is a process whereby a pilot can telephone to say that he or she is not reporting for duty, that they are fatigued and they must be left alone for 24 hours. There is then an investigation as to how this fatigue happened but what is crucial is that he did not report for work fatigued. Other airlines do not have that and there is a fear among the pilot body that if they did report fatigued they would be disciplined. They might not be disciplined by the airline but by the contractor who has provided the pilot to the airline. That is an interesting aspect. That contractor is not regulated by anybody, certainly not by any aviation authority.

I welcome the members of the delegation and thank them for their presentation. They have raised a very serious issue. We all have concerns about the drive within the aviation sector to reduce the price of a ticket to the level that at some point safety generally will be compromised. It is welcome that the witnesses have raised the point at this stage. I ask them to clear up, if they can, the issue of fatigue versus tiredness. The lay people among us have a desire to believe that this is like driving a car in that if one nods off, one will crash. Clearly, the management of an aircraft is very different. Is it the case that when somebody becomes fatigued or is in a very tired state that while they might not fall asleep they might not react as quickly as might be necessary to some event that happens in the cockpit, the result of which can have a catastrophic impact on the capacity of the flight to go its full distance? That needs to be teased out a little bit more.

Captain Cullen mentioned that a report had been prepared in the UK. Was it prepared by the transport committee of the House of Commons?

Captain Evan Cullen

It was a report of the select committee on transport in the UK and Dr. Hunter will deal with that.

He may deal with that in the response. The phrase "blatant disregard for science" was mentioned. We would like to hear a little more about that.

I am also taken by the fact that from what I can gather, EASA, on two occasions, sought to understand better the science behind the whole notion of fatigue. There were initially ten experts and an attempt was made by a further three independent scientific experts to validate that notion or otherwise but at the end of it did not respond or react appropriately to that science. I might return to this point later. There is valuable work for the committee to do, particularly if work has been carried out by other parliaments. Perhaps the committee would consider investigating EASA's proposals further. We could consult with scientists, the Irish Aviation Authority and other interested parties, perhaps including delegations from the main airlines here. I would support the committee doing this and producing a report. It would be useful if we spoke to other European parliaments because it is not an issue that relates only to Ireland and it has wider implications.

If EASA is driving ahead and ignoring science it is incumbent on individual member states to set out what they believe to be the case. I am taken to some extent by the delegation. If a group of consultants from the Mater Hospital were before us today telling us a patient safety issue had arisen we would all pay attention. Sometimes pilots get pushed aside as a matter is considered an industrial relations issue. These are highly qualified professionals making a statement based on the safety of passengers and it must be taken as seriously as though we had three or four consultants from the Mater Hospital or St. James's Hospital telling us a serious issue had arisen with regard to patient safety. The information has been brought to us and in my view it is very serious. It is incumbent on us as politicians to conduct research and bring forward a report to advise the Minister and the Department on the concerns we have and bring to bear the science behind this.

Captain Evan Cullen

I will ask Dr. Hunter and Mr. von Schoppenthau to address the international dimension. We would welcome such a process and would very much like to be a part of it. We would like to return to the committee after hearing what other stakeholders in the industry have to say about pilot fatigue, in particular with regard to EASA's disregard for the science-based approach.

Dr. Robert Hunter

As I understand the questions they are broadly in two parts; the first is the problem of fatigue in flying and the second concerns the select transport committee. With regard to fatigue in flying there is the problem of pre-involuntary sleep. An obvious problem is a pilot involuntarily falling asleep and therefore becoming incapacitated and unconscious. However, prior to this effects are felt on reaction time, scanning instruments, attention to warning instruments, decision-making and speed of information processing. A pilot's situation awareness and understanding where the aeroplane is in flight is dependent on this scanning process. The risk of fatigue is that a pilot will be too slow to do something, will not see something, will make a wrong decision or will consider decisions too narrowly. Most landings are manual and I doubt it is within normal human performance for a fully-rested captain to take over a mishandled landing by a first officer if that mishandling is done at the wrong time. My point is that reaction time really matters.

With these proposals one sees periods of wakefulness increasing to 22 hours, which is beyond the conventional research in civil aviation which has data up to 16 hours. One must look to the military or other industries where these types of spectacular hours are achieved. A substantial risk of involuntary sleep would occur and both pilots may fall asleep at the same time. If one pilot falls asleep we do not understand whether the other pilot's risk of involuntary sleep is independent of this or whether he or she is at an increased risk. We are very concerned about this augmented mode of failure. Blood alcohol levels were mentioned, and at 18 hours of wakefulness performance decrements occur which are similar to being several times over the legal limit for flying.

The link to the Select Transport Committee is that members of this committee might suggest we might say this because we represent a pilots' association. Therefore what is required is an independent review, which is exactly what the Select Transport Committee was empowered to do. It sought evidence on the same day from pilots' associations, regulators, airlines and scientists, including making visits to scientists, and it has published a report. The independent select committee found the proposals are not acceptable and, in particular, its strongest findings are with regard to the use of evidence. The terms we use with regard to disregarding or diverging from scientific advice are select committee terms and not those of the witnesses that came before it.

Mr. Philip von Schoppenthau

The European Aviation Safety Agency is mandated by two pieces of European legislation to base the future flight time limitation rules on scientific and medical evidence. These are the EU-OPS regulation and EASA's basic regulation. The agency and the European Commission have a very clear legal mandate to come up with proposals based on scientific evidence.

The rules in place at present are typical European political compromises. European legislators and European Ministers with responsibility for transport considered this legislation needed to be revised and reviewed in light of scientific evidence. EASA has proposed a second draft for such rules. The first draft was presented in December 2010 and was completely out of line with scientific evidence. EASA commissioned three independent scientists, from the UK, Germany and France, who presented three separate reports in June last year. These reports assessed the draft proposed by the agency in December 2010. They came to converging conclusions and recommendations on all of the key points.

The agency revised its proposal earlier this year. When we consider how it compares to the recommendations of the three scientists on the key elements of the proposal we see EASA disregards the findings of these three scientists. At the most recent meeting of the EASA rule-making group held on 15 and 16 May, and as I stated earlier I have the pleasure of sitting on this group, the signals and signs we received from the agency are that it will further water down an already insufficient proposal. The very simple reason for this is that it has been put under political pressure by a number of member states which were lobbied by specific airlines. It has also been put under pressure by some of the operators who are concerned that stricter rules would increase their costs.

What EASA has put on the table is well below what is in place in the UK, where CAP 371 is a state-of-the-art flight time limitation scheme. It is also below what is in place in Spain and some Scandinavian countries. If this new European legislation is put in place all national rules will disappear and, therefore, safety levels will decrease in a number of countries which is of serious concern to us. The issue comes back to passenger safety, and the position of the European Cockpit Association is that we desire rules solidly based on scientific evidence.

I thank the witnesses for their presentation. I am trying to get my head around this subject and I am not an expert in the field. From my observations I think the aviation industry has generally been very good with regard to safety. It makes me wonder why EASA is seeking these new rules on working hours and flight hours. Are most European countries opposed to the EASA proposals or is it just the Irish? The witnesses have referred to 16 hours flying time. With the preparation it can come up to 45 hours per week. If it is supposed to be scientific and medically based, how can the hours been increased based on the experience in other countries? The witnesses have indicated that the maximum hours in America is less than here. It is difficult to understand EASA moving away from the American model and introducing another model that will increase the risk of fatigue.

Are all pilots required to undergo a special medical test for fatigue? Does such a test exist? While I know there is a requirement to have two pilots, are there other safety checks - perhaps CCTV - to determine if a pilot is being affected by fatigue? I know the witnesses have said it is a general issue, but is there any difference between privately-run airports and state-run airports?

Dr. Robert Hunter

On the question of medical checks, I am an aviation medical examiner for a number of states - Europe, the United States, Transport Canada and so on. The medical checks on pilots relate to their functional fitness at the time and also the risk that they might lose that functional fitness due to, for example, the risk of a heart attack, diabetes or something like that. There is much less focus on fatigue. Anybody who is deprived of sleep for long enough, will show these effects. One of the tragedies of how EASA was mandated to take into account scientific and medical evidence is that there is an emerging medical science regarding fatigue. The way we all respond to fatigue is to a degree genetically determined - there is something called the Period 3 gene. However, none of this has come into the EASA proposals.

The Deputy asked if aircraft had any sort of monitoring system. Certain types of aircraft have pilot alerts whereby if a pilot does not put an input into the controls it will alert him or her. Otherwise in certain phases of the flight the aircraft cockpit is an environment in which a pilot or both pilots can fall asleep without people noticing or systems detecting it for a while. There is no system of CCTV, but part of the revolution in our understanding of how dangerous fatigue is, comes from the driving world and in particular a study in the United States where CCTV was installed in cars. Having viewed several million driving hours, they saw that falling asleep was a common cause of accidents.

The other question was about the differences between private and other types of airports. I do not believe I am particularly expert on that.

Captain Evan Cullen

I was not expecting the question on airports. I cannot think of a difference with any of the airfields into which I fly in how they treat pilots or whether they might lead to more fatigue. However, in very big airports where pilots are based, there are issues such as how far away car parking is, how difficult the security checks are and how efficiently the airport runs. Every day of their working lives pilots need to go through the same security checks as people going on holidays once a year. Some pilots find this stressful and it is not a great way to be going to work all the time. The United States has introduced a new security pass that has given pilots considerably more free access through security. We continually see security personnel walk through security at the airport without being checked and yet the pilots go through the same rigours as passengers. I cannot identify a particular difference in the airports.

Mr. Philip von Schoppenthau

The Deputy asked about the position of different member states on the proposal. Most of the member states do not yet have a position because the proposal will only come on the table of the Council of Ministers' working group late in the autumn or early winter at which point they will need to make up their minds. Obviously it is a public document and different member states could review the document. Some member states submitted comments to EASA during the commenting period. Formally speaking it will only be on the desks of the Ministers and the national authorities in late autumn. It will then obviously be dealt with next year when Ireland holds the EU Presidency.

The final slide in the presentation showed Mr. Sullenberger, the pilot who landed the plane on the Hudson River, who was a hero for five minutes until he appeared before a hearing and started talking about how much pilots were being paid, the number of hours they worked and the fact that some of them were on food stamps. He revealed to us what it is like from a pilot's perspective. We have no way of knowing the issues and problems regarding the industry in Europe unless the witnesses tell us. Obviously it is very useful to hear it from this point of view. We should not seek to get additional scientists if a study has already been completed. We should get a copy of that study. That three different scientists came to the same conclusion independently would be pretty convincing and we should not need to reinvent the wheel.

IALPA's publication indicates that if pilot pay was doubled the average price of a ticket would rise by approximately 4%, that the proposed FTLs would increase pilot productivity by less than 10%, but that by working over 13 hours the likelihood of an accident increases by more than 450%. That is pretty stark. Has an actuarial assessment been done on the cost-benefit analysis of increasing the work hours given the potential of an accident? It is playing with people's lives and if there is proven science, it would be a false economy to use that as a cost-cutting measure.

I was waiting for someone to mention the lobbying. Clearly this is driven by economics. I presume different countries had an input into trying to reduce the standards. Which countries were involved? Is there a register of lobbying interests in those countries that we could access to understand where the influence is being brought to bear? I note that some of the material we received today deals with whistleblowers legislation. Clearly, whistleblowers legislation is proposed but I cannot say whether the aviation industry is one of the areas it is intended to cover. However, it would appear to be a logical way of doing things, so individuals do not encounter personal difficulties in respect of their employability. I look forward to hearing the responses to my questions about the actuarial assessment and the lobbying interests.

Mr. Philip von Schoppenthau

The EASA is required to carry out a so-called regulatory impact assessment. It published such a document when it published the initial proposal in December 2010. It is a very long document and very few people will bother to look at it. Those who do will be deeply confused. However, those who look at it who have some knowledge will realise that it is not a very thorough document. When the EASA tried to look at what could be the economic costs versus safety implications, the basic methodology it applied was not very useful to really determine the cost benefit. In comparison, the Federal Aviation Authority, FAA, in the US used a completely different approach. It calculated the cost of an accident and what the rules would cost and balanced the two against each other. It also took the rules and ran them through software to assess what would be the real impact on the operations of airlines. It would have been very nice if all this had been done in the EU as well, but the EASA is a seriously under-resourced and understaffed agency. When it carried out the regulatory impact assessment, it did not have the relevant expertise and people who could do such analyses. The EASA will have to update this analysis but my hopes are very low that this document will be of any help.

The airlines make cost arguments but they do not put numbers on the table publicly, so we do not have any evidence when they say a rule would cost them X amount of money because a certain route would have to be flown differently or with an additional pilot in the cockpit and so forth. There is very little transparency there. All the stakeholder comments are published on the EASA website, so that is accessible. However the comments on the latest proposal are not yet available; perhaps they will be published in the autumn.

Lobbying takes place in two different ways. One is through official position papers and one is through a telephone call by a very powerful person in a powerful member state to a powerful person in the Commission. This can have a big impact. We saw this at the last meeting of the rule making group of EASA in May, when suddenly things changed on two items. The EASA was suddenly very busy trying to find some reasons to change what had been proposed in its proposal. Our assumption is that some people may have made some telephone calls in order to apply pressure. We have seen this in the past. Sometimes national authorities are very open to what the airlines tell them.

Does Dr. Hunter wish to respond?

Dr. Robert Hunter

I have some brief points to add. One is about the economics and the cost of fatigue. In most industries where there are limits on hours, they are based on studies of errors. The European regulations on doctors' hours, for example, are based on increasing medical error rate after 16 hours. Similarly, the FAA 16 hour limit is based on accident rates. The committee should note that we are facing the hours increasing to approximately 20. Also, the tail end of that graph is exponential, so one gets a huge increase in accident rates.

On the issue of lobbying, my personal view is that people are entitled to lobby. However, if one has power and terms of reference, and an entitlement to use that power that is constrained in various ways, such as requiring one to use science and medicine, people can lobby all they like but it does not change the fact that the rules must be based on science and medicine. We have the independent view, in addition to our view, that they are not.

Finally, with regard to behaviour and the question of safety being in everybody's interest, that touches on why we have regulation. What happens to us both individually and when we are parts of corporations is that we think the accident will happen to somebody else, so we will take the risk. Actually, statistically we are probably right that our rival will have the accident. It is that individual and corporate psychology that, in part, drives the need for regulation. Where the public is at risk there is regulation, because of these vulnerabilities.

Captain Paul Cullen

Deputy Murphy spoke about more scientific research being carried out. I would oppose that initially. We already have seven decades of science which has been ignored. It is a little like advice that is not being heeded. It is of no benefit to get more science unless it is going to be heeded. Currently, it is being ignored. Second, one of the three independent scientists said the new regulations are setting a standard that accepts a higher level of fatigue more generally and if not managed properly could well lead to a situation where the accident risk will increase. That is a comment from one of EASA's scientists. The agency paid him; he is not our scientist or on our books. Yet EASA is choosing to ignore its scientist's advice.

Captain Evan Cullen

I want to bring this to the local level. We distributed a booklet of correspondence between ourselves, the Minister and the IAA. I have numbered all the pages so if members look at page 16 they will see a letter from the Minister to me. In the last paragraph he says: "The IAA is the competent authority in Ireland for the EASA Regulation and advises me and my Department on all aspects of aviation safety. The IAA represents Ireland on the EASA Committee of the Commission and on EASA's Advisory Group of National Authorities. As such, they are in a position to take on board your views when considering the EASA proposals...".

I also refer the members to page 23, which is a letter from me to the Minister. In the last paragraph I make the point that Ireland has signed up to the International Civil Aviation Organisation, ICAO, and it is the Minister who has responsibility. I conclude: "Whereas we do understand your view that the IAA is best positioned to take on board our views when considering EASA proposals for rule-making on this issues, it is nonetheless a fact that the ultimate responsibility for air safety lies with [the Minister]." Page 26 is also a letter from me to the Minister and it refers to a meeting between IALPA and the IAA. The last paragraph states: "In previous correspondence on this issue you referred IALPA to the IAA. At a meeting between the IAA and IALPA on the 21st of February last (IAA Office) the IAA stated that they had not even read the CRD 2010-14 document or its attached scientific reports. This came a surprise to IALPA officers as the purpose of the requested meeting was to discuss the CRD and its attachments." It should be put on the record that we have tried to engage with both the Minister and the IAA on this issue.

Before I call Deputy Coonan, I have a question about setting the protocols and criteria for this. Are they set at a Council of Ministers meeting or how is the directive put in place?

Mr. Philip von Schoppenthau

I did not hear the question.

Captain Cullen referred to the correspondence. Can you clarify for the committee the setting of the protocols or guidelines or regulations with regard to flight time, fatigue and so forth? Will what is being examined at present be determined at a Council of Ministers meeting?

Mr. Philip von Schoppenthau

Yes.

For the record, I will ask the clerk of the committee to note that for when the Minister is going to the Council of Ministers meeting and invite the Minister to appear before the committee. Is that agreed? Agreed. I call Deputy Coonan.

First, like other members I welcome the deputation and thank it for its briefing. The witnesses undoubtedly have raised important issues that are of concern to all members and to the public. I also acknowledge and thank the witnesses for many safe hours of flying, particularly on the part of the Irish airlines and pilots. Their safety record is exemplary and I would like it to continue in that vein.

I will play devil's advocate by asking a few questions to advance the argument. What is the witnesses' professional opinion of the European Aviation Safety Agency, EASA? Is it not an independent authority? Do the witnesses not have confidence that it will consider the importance of safety from an independent perspective in both Ireland and Europe? Second, in what esteem do the witnesses hold the Irish Aviation Authority, IAA? I assume the aforementioned bodies are the two principal regulators with which the witnesses deal and I wish to ascertain the level of confidence the association has in them. In the association's professional opinion, how independent, capable and up to scratch are they in doing the job?

On another issue, reference was made to an analogy that it was akin to driving a bus or a lorry. I beg to differ and the witnesses might explain this point to me. I am sure no captain flies an aeroplane on his or her own, in that additional backup staff are available to him or her that a lorry driver would lack. As modern technology and modern aeroplanes have improved so much, do the witnesses not consider the improvements made on an ongoing basis to be a help to them in their occupation and profession? I read a comment in a newspaper recently in which a representative from an airline business stated "silly, self-serving union scaremongering on the issue" is what is going on in this regard. In this context, it is important that no one should scaremonger because of the public's high level of trust and regard for safety. Are the witnesses not coming from a scaremongering union background in this regard? In the present economic climate, everyone must take cutbacks and everyone is suffering. Perhaps the witnesses will indicate what is the average salary of a captain. Is this not really a protest at being obliged to do more for the same amount? I note most people must now do more for a lot less to survive. The same airline representative also indicated that pilots only work an average of 18 hours of flying per week. While I acknowledge Captain Evan Cullen has dealt with this point to some degree in respect of the 900 hours per annum, the airline representative went on to state pilots were "more likely to suffer from boredom than fatigue". What is the association's response to such allegations, made not by politicians or anyone else, but by people in the airline industry? The witnesses must address these issues.

I listened to Captain Paul Cullen talking about fatigue but everyone, regardless of whether one walks or cycles on the road or drives a bus, lorry or anything else, has a responsibility. Presumably, the same applies to the witnesses when flying a plane. Does a professional duty of care not exist in this regard? In the context of such a duty of care, what should be a pilot's response if his or her colleague is falling asleep? The witnesses have informed members that more than 40% of them are nodding off but that people are not being told. Is it good enough that this is happening? As an organisation, should the association not be ashamed to admit this? Surely each and every pilot has such a professional duty of care when taking control of so many people's lives with all the consequences arising therefrom.

Mr. Philip von Schoppenthau

On the independence of the EASA, it definitely should be an independent agency when considering safety, as after all it is the European Aviation Safety Agency. However, in respect of this legislation we have perceived that all too often, it is open to special interests and pressure. We had a meeting with the executive director of EASA, Mr. Patrick Goudou, on 14 May in which he stated clearly that safety was its number one priority, which we welcomed. However, in the next sentence, he stated the authority was obliged to deal with the Council of Ministers. He noted the authority was obliged to bring forward a proposal which was both safe and would be accepted by the Ministers. Consequently, the agency's aim is to put together a package that is politically acceptable to the Ministers and subsequently to the Parliament. Rather than simply looking at safety considerations and then giving its proposal to the political institutions of the European Union to let them consider the political side as to whether they wish to take into consideration commercial considerations and so on, the agency already is trying to come up with a package that is acceptable. One sentiment I often have heard in the rule-making group of the EASA was that if both sides are equally unhappy, it probably did a good job. That is its level of ambition.

Captain Evan Cullen

I will address the remainder of the questions. On the Irish Aviation Authority, the Irish Airline Pilots Association, IALPA, has produced a paper that was provided to the Minister last year. The best summary of the IALPA position with regard to the IAA may be found on page 10. We believe the IAA should not be constituted in its current form. We believe there should be a separation of the regulatory and service provision structures within the Irish aviation system, as per the European directive, to avoid potential conflicts of interest. In particular, I add the IAA is a commercial body that makes money as a safety regulator and it should not be this way. We believe the air traffic service, for example, should be separate from the regulatory regime over pilots and the airlines. It is not good enough that the IAA depends on an income from the very people it seeks to regulate.

I refer members to a letter that sums up one point that is of massive concern to the association and they can develop their own position on how pilots might view the IAA. It is a letter sent by me to the Minister regarding contracts that were being offered to pilots in an Irish airline. Each pilot who flies an aircraft registered in Europe must have a European licence but such licences are issued by the member states. Consequently, it is possible, for example, for a German pilot with a German licence to fly an Irish-registered aircraft. However, I refer to a provision in a contract of employment of a pilot, which can be found on page 17 of the correspondence booklet with the Minister. The letter includes other details but I wish to draw members' attentions to this point. The contract of employment stipulates that if the company representative, that is, the pilot, does not possess an Irish Aviation Authority-issued JAR licence upon commencing operating with the hirer, a deduction of €45 per month will be made until such time as that company representative, namely, the pilot, confirms to the contractor that he or she holds an Irish Aviation Authority-issued JAR licence. This creates an impression-----

Without being facetious, are there left-hand drive and right-hand drive aircraft?

Captain Evan Cullen

No. Basically each aircraft of more than five tonnes has dual controls.

Do you understand the point I am making?

Captain Evan Cullen

Yes. However, my point is people are entitled to take a view on the Irish Aviation Authority when they see such provisions written into their contracts. There is no legal basis for any airline to demand one will have a licence issued by the authority under the jurisdiction of which the airline operates. Moreover, penalising someone for that suggests a relationship-----

The captain is suggesting the association has no confidence in the IAA.

Captain Evan Cullen

No, my point to members is that our position, as set out in the document supplied to them and which I provided to the Minister last year, is the manner in which the authority is constructed at present does not constitute best practice. We believe it should be broken into two elements. While it is possible to have a commercial element, the safety regulatory and oversight function should be separate and not commercially based.

I refer to the other point mentioned by Deputy Coonan with regard to scaremongering. All the figures we are using with regard to the hours are science-based. Not only are they science-based, they are taken from scientists who were employed by the European Aviation Safety Authority, EASA. No pilot association, nor any union I am aware of, contributed financially or otherwise to that scientific research. All the scientific research was commissioned by EASA. We are only using the science-based figures from that research in our position to the committee. We are not using any other position.

Captain Cullen does not have confidence in EASA, however.

Captain Evan Cullen

EASA does not have confidence in its own scientific research, which is a more alarming prospect. We have confidence in scientific research. When EASA produces a figure I would like to know where it got the figure because all our figures come from scientists. Where did EASA get its figures?

That is what I am asking.

Captain Evan Cullen

We do not know. It would be an interesting exercise, however, if EASA were called before a committee and asked what was the basis of that figure as opposed to its own scientific figure. That is a question I would love to see asked.

It carried out its own independent research and then gave-----

Captain Evan Cullen

All of the science we are using here comes from EASA-----

That is its own research. I call Captain Paul Cullen, to be followed by Mr. von Schoppenthau.

Captain Paul Cullen

The Chairman mentioned scaremongering.

I read out a quote.

Captain Paul Cullen

The Chairman quoted "scaremongering". If we are scaremongering, so are seven decades of scientists. If one considers the individual who mentioned scaremongering, he is also the individual who referred to charging for toilets and having standing room only on aeroplanes. It is a headline. What we are talking about is science, it is real.

Mr. Philip von Schoppenthau

EASA claims that its latest proposal is seen as a package that is sufficiently in line with science and probably likely to get a smooth ride in the Council of Ministers. We formally asked the agency in mid-March to carry out another scientific assessment. We asked the same three scientists to look at the new package that EASA put forward last January and let them come up with their views on whether the new package put on the table by the agency is okay. It took the agency two full months to reply to us in a letter that contained four lines concerning our request. The answer was "No". It said it had enough evidence, knew sufficiently well what it was doing, knew that in a number of crucial areas it did not take the science into consideration but did not think another assessment by the three scientists of the new package would add any value that we could provide, if the committee wanted it.

We were surprised by this because obviously it is easy to ask whether the new package was safe, as EASA claimed, whether it could be improved or if it needed improvement. Our line, as the European Cockpit Association and IALPA, is that we just want the rules to be based on science. We do not want to have any commercial or industrial considerations included, only scientific rules. That is it.

I welcome IALPA to the committee and thank the witnesses for their frank and honest admission about the kind of safety issues that arise when a pilot has to work long hours. Many of the questions I intended to ask have been asked. The witnesses stated that landing was the most dangerous part of a flight. That scares me a little because I represent a constituency close to Dublin Airport whose entry flight path comes in over Portmarnock. I spent an hour and a half last week at Portmarnock DART station, giving out leaflets for the treaty referendum. While I was there the aeroplanes were flying quite low as they came into land which brought home to me the kind of risks that are associated with living close to an airport or under a flight path. When the witnesses stated that landing is the most dangerous part of a flight I have to listen to that.

The witnesses mentioned there were some 16 hour duties and that if a pilot was on call he might be awake for 22 hours which lends itself to fatigue. They also mentioned the practices and cultures of different airlines. I watched a BBC programme some years ago which examined this area in great detail, focusing in particular on one Irish airline which came in for a lot of criticism during the programme.

If that was the "Panorama" programme, it endorsed the the particular airline. That was one of the most fascinating things about it.

We must have been watching different programmes. What is the delegates' experience of this? How often do pilots have to undergo a medical check-up? What is the rate of illness and absenteeism? In any occupation where the job is stressful people have to take time off. What is the level of absenteeism or illness in the pilot profession as compared to that of doctors, as was mentioned, or of others?

Dr. Robert Hunter

Sickness and absence behaviours are highly dependent on corporate cultures, in addition to actual physical illness. If we use the medical model again, when I was a junior doctor in the National Health Service, we had unlimited numbers of hours and were extremely fatigued but there was a very high consequence if we went off sick. One's fellow junior doctor who also had unlimited hours had to take over one's work. It was a massive disincentive to fatigue reporting. Having worked in both industries, I think a very similar thing goes on in the aviation industry. If one is off sick it can cause a big problem. Although sickness absence rates are generally quite low among pilots, this is substantially due to those cultural reasons.

Captain Paul Cullen

The Deputy mentioned sick leave rates. Due to the nature of the job we do, there are certain illnesses that might preclude us from going to work where somebody else might go to work as, for example, with an ear infection. We cannot fly with an ear infection. I recently spoke to one of our members who had five days certified sick leave in a year. He was asked by his employer to reconsider whether he was suited physically for a career in aviation. That was one of our members working in a low-cost airline.

The Deputy also mentioned a case of 22 hours flying. Obviously, that is the extreme and will be quite rare. How often that happens in a year, who knows, but it is rare and I acknowledge it is rare. We made an analogy with drink driving. Fatigue will deteriorate one's performance similarly to alcohol intoxication. Drink driving is not only socially unacceptable but is illegal. However, fatigue is a bit of a dirty word among flight crew. We do not talk about it. Flying for 22 hours will be quite rare. What if I were to suggest that because we have a birthday once a year on one's birthday one was allowed to drink drive? It would be a get out of jail card. "Your Honour, I know I was over the limit but it was my birthday". That is also rare and for that reason we do not accept that 22 hours of flying, rare as it is, should be allowed. If it is going to be so rare why do the airlines need it?

Is Dr. Hunter indicating?

Dr. Robert Hunter

I raise a point that has been touched on generally, in a few areas, in regard to automation and autopilots. The role of an autopilot is often misunderstood. People outside the flying world think it takes over all duties. Autopilots are important in commercial aviation because they reduce pilot fatigue. At high altitude aeroplanes have to be flown very accurately and autopilots are essential for that. However, they have specific "gotchas" for fatigued pilots. If, for example, a pilot involuntarily falls asleep, the aeroplane will carry on in the autopilot programme mode. That has been a feature of important accidents and incidents. The aeroplane has the capacity to run itself out of or get low in fuel or risk terrain collision because of that.

May I come in here? I worked at sea for a number of years. Ships also operate on autopilot. Dr. Hunter stated in regard to navigation that one could be travelling for 36 hours or three days on autopilot. On the bridge of a ship, however, there is an alarm bell that goes off every couple of minutes to ensure that the person on the bridge is alert. Are the witnesses saying that there is no such facility on a long haul aircraft? Are they saying that the pilot of an aircraft which is on automatic pilot between Shannon and New York is not required to press a button every couple of minutes to indicate he or she is awake?

Dr. Robert Hunter

On the Boeing 767, which I have flown, there is-----

That is a legal requirement in maritime law.

Dr. Robert Hunter

I am not absolutely sure but I think that after at least 15 minutes one receives an oral alert and a bing sound-----

What happens if you do not respond to that?

Dr. Robert Hunter

-----which requests pilot response.

If you do not respond, do all alarm bells and whistles go off? On a ship, if the mate does not respond, the alarm is sounded on the entire ship that the bridge is not being attended. I assume the same applies on an aircraft so that it would not be possible for a pilot to fall asleep for two hours because of the number of bells and alarms ringing.

Captain Paul Cullen

I have flown long haul. It is possible to fly from overhead Shannon to overhead New York-----

Would the captain have turned off the facility on the bridge?

Captain Paul Cullen

-----and press no button. There is no requirement to do that.

I presume that such equipment is built into the bridge of every plane.

Captain Paul Cullen

No. I have never seen one.

So what is provided for by way of the regulation in maritime law is not an issue in aviation law?

Captain Paul Cullen

No. There is no such requirement.

That is surprising. One of the biggest developments in aviation has been the increase in the number of short haul flights, in particular in Europe, owing to accessibility in terms of cost. On any particular morning that one looks up to the sky, in particular in Cork where I live, there is a great deal of transatlantic traffic be it to Finland or Rio de Janeiro. The sky is like a grid in terms of the number of long haul flights operating.

Am I correct that the witnesses are saying that where during a long haul flight an aircraft is switched to automatic pilot and remains so for a number of hours there is no requirement for an alarm system to which the two people in the cockpit at the bridge must respond at particular times?

Captain Evan Cullen

The Helios 737 flight took off unpressurised and the pilots became incapacitated owing to hypoxia - a lack of oxygen in the air - and the aircraft eventually crashed. There was an intervention when an individual sitting at the back of the plane, who was a trained cabin crew, eventually gained access to the cockpit. However, the aircraft eventually crashed. Another example is the private jet of Payne Stewart, the golfer, which too took off unpressurised, following which the pilots and passengers became incapacitated and the aircraft ran out of fuel and eventually crashed.

Deputy Coonan raised the issue of modern technology. While modern technology is good and efficient one of the problems-----

I drive a cruise control car. If I am driving home late from Dublin to Cork, I turn off the cruise control for the simple reason that if I do nod off behind the wheel while driving I will be alerted by a jolt in the car. If the car is in cruise control and I fall asleep the car would drive off into the closest field.

Captain Evan Cullen

The Chairman is possibly referring to the rumble strips. The lives of many people who work long hours and drive the motorways of Ireland have been saved by rumble strips on the hard shoulder, which immediately bring one back from involuntary sleep.

One may not get that action with cruise control.

Captain Evan Cullen

One may not. The more advanced and technologically based an aircraft then when things go wrong they go badly wrong. I currently fly the Airbus fly-by-wire which is very different from the aircraft I flew 20 years ago or even 15 years ago in terms of advancement in technology. It is great when everything works. Just like a computer that is very good when it works, it is an absolute disaster when it does not work. These are man made machines which experience difficulties. While people will often speak of how technology has saved a flight and so on, no one ever publicises how many times pilot intervention on the automation has saved the day. That happens every day of the week but no one every speaks about it.

Mr. Philip von Schoppenthau

Pushing a button, sound signals or having a cup of coffee are ad hoc tactical measures to overcome an alertness problem. We are looking for regulation that prevents such a situation from occurring. In other words, the signal system exists but one does not need it because one is sufficiently rested on commencement of duty and has sufficiently controlled flight and duty time in order to remain fit at the end of that duty. It is important there are preventative measures in place. One can drink a great deal of coffee but that may not be enough. The limits in terms of when the human body becomes too fatigued to operate safely are scientifically identified. It was stated earlier that landing can be the most dangerous part of a flight. Take-offs can also be dangerous. There have been crashes during take-off.

One of the main concerns of the three scientists was long duty days with a heavy workload, namely, a number of take-offs and landings. All three scientists recommend that following the second take-off overall flight duty time allowed should be reduced by between 30 and 45 minutes and that this should continue in respect of each following take-off. That makes sense. The response of the European Aviation Safety Agency, EASA, is to reduce overall flight duty after the third take-off and by only 30 minutes. That is one example of where it goes against what is recommended by the three scientists.

Another example is night flights. The three scientists and many other people believe that flying at night should be limited to ten hours. There has been much research in this regard. The response of the EASA is that the 11 hour limit is fine. This is a clear example of where the EASA proposal is not, and will not be, in line with science because the airlines are fiercely opposed to this.

I welcome the witnesses to the meeting to discuss this serious subject. We take their views seriously, in particular when they quote science rather than commission a report in order to have what they want to say heard. We must listen when people quote science.

The EU directive on regulation of the airlines states that regulation is performed in the public interest to ensure that the standards practised in Irish aviation are in line with national, European and international guidelines. The witnesses are saying that the standards we are applying in Ireland are not up to scratch and that other countries are doing better than we are. We must find out where we are falling down in this regard.

Another issue raised - this is also the recommendation of the EU - is that the regulation and service industry should be regulated separately. I read recently a quotation from the Minister that this function would be transferred to the National Transport Authority. It has been stated that this should be a function of the Commission for Aviation Regulation, which would be more cost effective. We all know that money talks. I would like to hear the witnesses' views on the reason they believe it should be a function of the Commission for Aviation Regulation rather than the transport authority. The Commission for Aviation Regulation would have the required expertise, which would be a factor in the decision. The transport association would have to buy in that expertise to ensure the regulations are done properly. I would like to hear the witnesses' views on that.

Reference has been made to the 900-hour requirement that has been laid down. I read in one of the witnesses' documents that the number of hours can sometimes increase to 1,200 because the calibrator - the pilots' clock - is switched off on 1 April every year. If that were done to a motor car, it would be illegal to sell the car. Are there any regulations that state that cannot be done? Such regulations should provide that the relevant period should extend from 1 January to 31 December, rather than the clock starting all over again each April. One is not allowed to switch a motor car's clock backwards, but that is what pilots are being asked to do to their time clocks. I think it is a serious issue.

Do the witnesses agree that the question of the confidentiality of reporting will probably be addressed in the new Bill that the Minister, Deputy Howlin, is introducing, the protected disclosures in the public interest Bill 2012? Will it cover what the witnesses are asking for? They are no different from doctors who have to work overtime and on-call time, or surgeons who have to perform certain duties. They do not have to work all the time. As has been outlined, however, once in a blue moon they have to work up to 22 hours. Is anything stipulated in the regulation covering on-call time? What does the organisation consider to be an appropriate revival time or rest time? Doctors are supposed to come back to perform at peak capacity after getting a certain amount of sleep and being off duty for a certain amount of time. Two pilots are not needed to drive the airplane all the time. One is the co-pilot. One is asleep while the other is awake.

That is an interesting question. Is one pilot asleep on long-haul flights?

Is it factored into the safety protocol that when one has revived after four or five hours of sleep, one is at normal peak performance or capacity? If the organisation is not included in the confidentiality of whistleblowers Bill, it should be. Are contract pilots governed under the same legislation the witnesses have been talking about? I presume they are. I got the feeling from what I read that the witnesses would not be recommending that type of thing in the case of contract pilots.

I agree that the activities of the regulator should be covered by the freedom of information legislation, as suggested by the witnesses. This committee should make a recommendation in that regard.

Given that I will not get a chance to come in again, I would like to mention as an aside that I read in one of the witnesses' documents that they will bring firefighters from New York to Ireland as part of the 9-11 flight. It is interesting for those dealing with tourism to note that the document mentions the perception or narrative that Ireland is closed for business. It seems that certain people are not willing to come here or have their conferences here.

Where is the Senator going with this?

This matter is mentioned in the submission.

I want to focus on safety issues this afternoon.

Does this relate to tourism?

It might be too late because they are looking-----

I am not going to take the tourism issue now.

I do not care what is in the report. I am only going to issue stuff that has to do with-----

It is something they are looking for. They will not get an opportunity to come in again.

I am not going to take it. We are talking about health and safety this afternoon.

I am sorry lads. You will have to make a further submission to get money to bring the firefighters over here. I think it is a good idea.

Okay. That was not dealt with by the witnesses in their presentation today.

Why were we given it then?

I do not know, but I will not be taking it now.

Okay. I will go back to the serious issue of safety. Everybody, including those involved in commercial airline owners' organisations, has to listen when they hear someone saying that pilot fatigue is an issue. They will lose more on the roundabouts that they will gain on the hurdles. If I could get a guarantee that the pilot on my flight would stay awake until my destination is reached, I would pay an extra €2 for that rather than taking a chance that he or she might fall asleep en route. The airlines should be taking that commercial interest on board as well. One cannot make safety decisions on the basis of commercial matters. If there is any hint of any question being raised about safety, the commercial aspect of the matter will decrease in importance. When people are afraid to fly, profits go down. I remind everyone that we have to ensure we are taking science on board. We have to apply the precautionary principle when people's lives are at stake. That is what I am advocating. This committee will have to look at that. I thank the witnesses for their attendance.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I learned a great deal from them. I welcome those who are present. I would like to ask a couple of questions on foot of the documentation we have received. Subpart Q of EU-OPS is in place for three years. What is the difficulty being found with it? Is it the case that the hours provided for in it are too long? Do the witnesses have a difficulty with Subpart Q?

Page 8 of the document refers to the findings of a study that was done in Norway and Denmark, one of which is that 50% of pilots have fallen asleep. Who conducted that study? Who was it done on behalf of? Do the witnesses have any information on that?

The precautionary principle is referred to in item No. 25 in the document that was on our desk when we arrived in. Perhaps the witnesses might give us a little more information on that.

I understand that IASA has an opinion due on the flight-time limitations. I think it will be finalised next year. Did the witnesses get an opportunity to make a submission on the matter at any stage? Is that how it works?

I am interested in the US regulator because its rules are considerably different. It seems to me that the witnesses are advocating the US style of regulation. Is that correct?

Captain Evan Cullen

We are advocating the process.

Okay. America is a very big continent. There are many internal flights, unlike here, as well as long-haul flights. I imagine from what I have read and heard from the witnesses that they think we should be going in that direction. I would appreciate it if they could clarify that for me.

Captain Evan Cullen

Many questions have been asked. I will begin by responding to what the Senator said about the 900-hour rule. It is absolutely correct to say that a pilot can illegally report for flying duties at 11.59 p.m. on 30 March but, when his entire clock is reset to zero on April fools' day, he can start then. That is an absolute fact. We know of pilots who have done 1,800 hours in 18 months. Another rule provides for 100 hours of flying in any 28 consecutive days. The 900-hour rule was reduced to a joke, from the pilots' point of view, the day someone agreed with the regulators that the clock could be set to zero on the morning of 1 April each year.

I was also asked about the issue of rest during flight. There are long-haul flights that require augmented crew. That means there is a third and possibly a fourth crew member in addition to the two pilots who man the cockpit for take-off and landing. A rest area is generally provided for the crew members in question, who rotate throughout the shift. Although nobody has said fatigue was a factor when an Air France aircraft crashed while travelling from South America to Paris, as members of the committee will recall, it is believed that the captain who was commanding the flight was taking his rest when the aircraft entered its initial upset.

We would welcome the support of this committee in making sure the Irish Aviation Authority is covered by the new freedom of information legislation. We know that correspondence and position papers with regard to safety issues that affect our members are being exchanged by the airlines, the Department and the authority. We cannot get access to that correspondence. I implore the committee to assist us in getting to the bottom of that. When we make freedom of information requests for documents that relate to our members, we are often blocked by various sections in line with the current freedom of information legislation. The IAA, as a safety regulator, is not subject to FOI, which I do not understand.

With regard to confidential reporting and whistleblowing, I always see these as two totally separate issues. A person should be able to make a confidential report. Our ideal scenario for confidential reporting is that anonymous reporting should never happen but there should be an agency where I can go to verify who I am and, therefore, that agency can say it is possible I would have access to this information. I can then reveal all the information I know that is in the interests of the public but no person can gain access to my identity through that agency, even through a court order. Only that agency would know who I am and it would not release my identity but would investigate the information I have provided. That, to me, would be a perfect scenario. We are against anonymous reporting.

With regard to whistleblowing legislation, I fully agree with the speaker. I have seen what happens to whistleblowers. There is a textbook or checklist as to how corporations deal with whistleblowers. The first thing they do is to try to make a joke of the individual by reducing him or her to the position of a comic or a person who should not be taken seriously. If that does not work, the next thing they do is to malign the individual by saying there is malice or an ulterior agenda. One of the claims that is constantly thrown at us is that we are using safety as a fig leaf for industrial issues. It is apparent to me, however, that there are some organisations in Ireland which actually use industrial issues as a fig leaf in order to hide safety issues.

I will ask Mr. von Schoppenthau to deal with some of the direct questions on EU-OPS and Subpart Q. My understanding of Subpart Q is that it came in with the intention that scientific research would be undertaken into pilot fatigue and that subsequent regulations would be put in place which would take that scientific research into account.

Mr. Philip von Schoppenthau

In response to the point on zeroing the clock and the 900 hours per year, the European legislation refers to 900 book hours in a calendar year. My understanding is that a calendar year is from January to December, and I believe this understanding is shared throughout Europe, perhaps with some exceptions. In this respect, one company is lobbying very heavily against the new proposal, which is a good one, whereas the other wants to add to the requirement of 900 hours in a calendar year an additional limit which would be 1,000 hours in any 12 consecutive months, that is, a rolling limit. This would ensure the workload is spread evenly and that there cannot be two strong peaks of workload or fatigue. It is a very sensible proposal. We had suggested it should be 900 hours in any consecutive 12-month period, as in the UK, but EASA did not want to go so far. An airline from this country is lobbying heavily against this.

To come back to EU-OPS, there are three points to be made. First, EU-OPS has a requirement written into it that a medical and scientific evaluation must be carried out within two years of those new rules being applied. Based on the scientific evaluation and upon advice from EASA, the European Commission has to review and, if necessary, revise those rules. Therefore, there is a legal requirement which was introduced at the time by the Ministers and the European Parliament.

A second reason to revise is closely linked to this first point, namely, these rules were not based on scientific evidence. We want this revision to be taken as an opportunity to bring science back into the rules.

The third point is that the current rules have a number of what we call black holes, that is, areas that are not governed by this regulation such as split duty, early starts, time zone crossings and so on. These areas, which are currently not covered by the EU rules, will have to be filled so we have the same rules in these areas throughout Europe. These are three drivers to review the current position.

The second question concerned the surveys in Norway, Denmark and Sweden, as well as surveys in other countries such as Germany and very recently in Austria. These surveys were carried out by professional pilot associations in those countries together with either polling agencies or, in two cases, with advice from a scientific institute, the Karolinska Institute. They polled their members according to a set number of questions.

On the third question, we agree it is important the precautionary principle is applied. It is a basic principle for all European legislation that if in doubt, choose the safest option. Obviously, there are a number of areas where no scientific research has ever been carried out. In other words, there is no scientific guidance for the legislator to take into consideration except perhaps recommendations from scientists based on just a few studies, where pilots were plugged with cables and so on. In this case, we should choose the safest option until the moment there is research and evidence that a different, more relaxed type of regulation will be safe. Unfortunately, EASA takes the opposite approach and allows practices until the moment they have been shown to be unsafe, which is really the wrong way round.

The next question concerned the EASA opinion, which is expected to come out at the end of September and is then expected to go to the European Commission, where the other services of the Commission will look at it in the so-called inter-service consultation. It then goes into comitology, where both the Council of Ministers and the Parliament will look at it. Stakeholders did have the possibility to make submissions. There were two rounds of stakeholder consultations and stakeholders on all sides of the industry sent in comments. It was quite a transparent process, although the way the comments were dealt with afterwards was slightly less transparent. There is another rule-making group, the so-called OPS.055 group within EASA, where the stakeholders, including the European Cockpit Association, are represented and where they can and do make comments and suggestions.

I asked about the division of responsibility for regulation between the National Transport Authority and the Commission for Aviation Regulation and also about the witnesses' reason for recommending the commission over the NTA.

Deputy Dooley might also wish to ask a question at this point.

I just want to clarify that the committee is going to prepare a report on this.

The committee will decide when the witnesses are finished, not during the deliberations.

Okay. To clarify a point raised by Deputy Catherine Murphy, I do not have an issue about the committee needing to go back and get additional scientific information------

There are issues with regard to the transportation aspect of this committee and other matters that I will deal with at the conclusion.

It was suggested the American approach has changed since the accident to which reference was made. What was the reason it changed? Was it because there was litigation whereby the science had shown there was a potential problem or because of public pressure? Is it-----

Dr. Robert Hunter

In the preamble to the report on the proposed rule change, they set out why they took the initiative to change the rule. The Colgan accident is specifically mentioned.

Captain Paul Cullen

The Colgan crash was the straw that broke the camel's back. However, the National Transportation Safety Board, NTSB, had been pushing since 1990 for science based rules, which it claimed did not exist. It also wanted science and medical evidence to be taken into account. It was not just that one accident, which was the final straw, not the catalyst.

I was trying to identify the point where they made the change. If we are looking for a point at which to seek a change, clearly, it is of benefit if we can find where something similar happened. I accept there was a history prior to that.

Captain Evan Cullen

I want to answer the question regarding the civil aviation regulator and the National Transport Authority. Time has moved on somewhat in that under a Government initiative the civil aviation-----

Senator Keane, your question has been answered.

Captain Evan Cullen

-----regulator has now been brought into the IAA. They have been joined together. Our preference, and we understand that this is the EU recommendation, is that we should have a safety regulator who is separate from any commercial enterprise the Irish Aviation Authority, IAA, might be involved in. Certainly those who are in charge of oversight and regulatory affairs should not be operating under a commercial mandate.

To summarise, is it the contention of the Irish Airline Pilots Association, regarding the report carried out by the EASA, that the series of recommendations by three scientists it brought in were ignored?

Captain Evan Cullen

That is absolutely our contention.

That is it in a sentence.

Captain Evan Cullen

We would use the words used by the independent UK select committee. I believe the phrase used was "blatant disregard of scientific evidence".

To summarise, three scientists were engaged-----

Captain Evan Cullen

By EASA.

-----by an agency, and the agency ultimately did not give due cognisance to the recommendations in its own report.

Captain Evan Cullen

That is our position, yes.

Captain Paul Cullen

Not just the three scientists. There was the initial evaluation of the current flight time limitations, FTLs, carried out by Moebus.

In terms of moving this on, members may be aware that in the next few weeks there will be a reconfiguration of this committee with regard to the environment, transport and other matters. I do not think it would be appropriate for this committee to give a direction to a new committee coming in to be overly specific or prescriptive about that but I recommend a number of things arising from this afternoon's meeting. First, that a copy of the House of Commons select committee report be issued electronically to members. I ask Dr. Hunter to do that to ensure we all get a copy of it. Second, that as Chairman I would write to the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, asking that the correspondence, and particularly today's closing comments, be brought to the attention of the Minister's officials. Third, that the next European Council of Ministers meeting be an item for discussion with the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, on the next occasion he comes before this committee or the reconfigured transport committee. Regardless of what the next committee decides to do arising from that, one action that should take place is direct engagement between the transport committee and the Minister prior to a Council of Ministers meeting. Is that agreed?

Before we agree that, I do not know who will be the Chairman of that committee. It might be the Chairman-----

I would make a recommendation to that committee.

-----but whoever it is should make a recommendation that the committee would deliberate on the information given today. Since there will be a transfer of information-----

And that the first deliberation will be to engage with the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, prior to the Council of Ministers meeting. Deputy Dooley may have been present when we said this was an issue for the Council of Ministers to sign off on following which we will see what else-----

There is a body of work for the transport committee-----

There is a body of work if members would turn up to committee meetings.

I accept that. That is why this is an issue that is probably better dealt with by-----

In fairness, and we will go into private session shortly, the issue arises as to who are the committed people. This committee has produced a series of reports from different bodies that came before it. I will not give a job to a new committee coming in without knowing the people who will be on it. We cannot do that because we do not know who will be sitting around the table but we can engage in a specific action, namely, that the next time the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, appears before the transport committee this issue will be dealt with specifically. The freedom of information matter raised by Senator Cáit Keane could be raised in that committee as well but specific action with regard to reports to committees is a matter for a committee to deal with.

I take the Chairman's point that it is not for him to decide what the next committee would do but as Fianna Fáil's transport spokesperson it is my expectation to be on that committee. I will be pushing it as a piece of work the committee should undertake. We need to hear from a number of stakeholders on the way it impacts on the industry. We have heard from the pilots, and I take with great seriousness what has been presented to us today in a dispassionate way. I do not believe it is an industrial relations issue but an issue of safety. We need to hear from the airlines and understand why they are pushing a particular direction. We need to hear from our own aviation authority also. We must take our work as parliamentarians seriously to the extent that we then present our case to the Minister. A criticism I generally have, and we have talked about it often in the past, is that-----

The criticism I would have is about participation when reports get worked upon. It is a job that we will leave to the new committee because I will not commit people to work. We should forget about being pedantic in front of our witnesses. A new transport committee will be put in place within the next two to three weeks. I would support the recommendation the Deputy is making, and if I am on that committee I will second it.

As Deputy Dooley stated, there are other interests from whom we have to hear, and I know it is up to the next committee to do that. It is more than likely I will be on that committee but we must hear from the European Aviation Safety Agency, EASA, in particular because certain comments have been made by the pilots' association, and we need to know if the evidence from all the scientists has been ignored. There is work to be done in that regard and I look forward to examining this issue and questioning its representatives on it.

The proposition is that EASA has engaged experts and has ignored the findings of those expert groups. That is a strong statement to make before a committee.

I will bring this section of our meeting to a close. I thank Captain Paul Cullen, Captain Evan Cullen, Mr. Philip von Schoppenthau and Dr. Robert Hunter, who will forward to the committee the select committee's report. The witnesses are excused.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.20 p.m. and adjourned at 4.40 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 6 June 2012.
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