JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT díospóireacht -
Thursday, 24 May 2012

North-South Bodies: Discussion with safefood

Chairman

We will now have a discussion on the work of safefood Ireland as part of our consideration of the work of North-South bodies. I welcome Mr. Martin Higgins, chief executive officer, Ms Lynn Ní Bhaoighealláin, chairman, and Mr. Ray Dolan, corporate services director of safefood. The Food Safety Promotion Board is one of six North-South Implementation Bodies established under the Good Friday Agreement. It implements policies agreed in the North-South Ministerial Council on an all-island and cross-Border basis. It is principally charged with raising public awareness of food safety issues and related health issues such as obesity. It also supports North-South scientific co-operation and links between institutions working in the field of food safety such as laboratories.

Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their utterances, but if they are directed by the committee to cease making remarks on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are thereafter protected only by qualified privilege. Only comments or evidence related to the subject matter of this meeting are to be given, and witnesses are asked to respect the parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House of the Oireachtas, a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Martin Higgins

We are delighted to have the opportunity to make a presentation to the committee. As the Chairman said, safefood is one of the six implementation bodies set up under the Good Friday Agreement. Departmental responsibility for safefood rests with the two health Departments, the Department of Health and the Northern Ireland Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety. Our headquarters are in Little Island in Cork and we have a sub-office in Dublin. We have an indicative budget of €8.5 million for 2012 which equates to £6.8 million. The Department of Health in Dublin provides 70% of the funding, with 30% coming from the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety. We have a permanent staffing level of 30.

safefood has no function in the regulatory aspects of food; that is left to the bodies in the two jurisdictions. Instead, we have a broad promotional role. Our key function is to promote food safety as a responsibility shared by the entire food chain - everybody from primary producers to consumers. The organisation is also charged with providing advice on nutrition. However, our promotion role goes beyond promoting just to the public. We promote, commission and fund research and we are responsible for ensuring protocols are in place to communicate food alerts, to advance the knowledge and surveillance of food-borne disease on the island and to promote scientific co-operation and laboratory linkages. We have a specific function for developing an all-island strategy for specialised laboratory services and a general remit to provide an independent science-based assessment of the food supply.

The governing legislation provides that the chief executive shall carry out the functions of the body under the direction of the NSMC, North-South Ministerial Council, and I am assisted in this duty by a 12-member advisory board of which Ms Lynn Ní Bhaoighealláin is the chairperson and a scientific advisory committee of 13 members.

We operate under four directorates, two scientific directorates, one of which deals with food science and the other with human health and nutrition; marketing and communications because communications is a key aspect of our role; corporate operations which supports the operational structure of the organisation.

The food environment continues to evolve, particularly as economic circumstances change. There is an increasing recognition of the need to assist those who are prevented from making healthy choices as a result of low income. The incidence of food-borne disease continues and its impact represents a significant economic cost. Obesity is a significant public health challenge with two out of three adults on the island being overweight or obese, despite public campaigns to educate consumers over the years and additional efforts by industry to provide healthier options through a reduction in fat and salt levels.

This leads to a significantly increased risk of stroke, diabetes and heart disease and results in considerable health costs. It is estimated that up to 2,000 individuals die prematurely every year on the island as a result of weight-related conditions. One in four children starting school is overweight and the average 14-year old boy is three stone heavier than his grandfather at the same age. In addition to these factors, there have been significant changes in the world of communications. Traditional methods of communication such as television and radio advertising are losing ground as consumers take charge by choosing what they wish to view and how they view it. There is no longer a static audience. New media opportunities are constantly emerging, such as Twitter, Facebook, discussion boards and so on.

Our strategy has been to empower individuals to make healthy and safe food choices by delivering messages that move consumers towards improved personal food safety and healthy eating and to disseminate knowledge and information in a way that is relevant, practical and fit for purpose. This is supported by robust research. We aim to influence the food environment, to provide support for consumers who are ready to modify their behaviour through workplace initiatives, community food initiatives, interface with industry and so on. We aim to deliver a programme to stakeholders to maximise understanding and engagement. We seek to support communities, including socially and economically disadvantaged communities, to help them achieve better health outcomes and to fulfil our remit in the context of value for money which is a key component of all our activities. Details of some of these activities have been circulated to members.

The health departments on both sides have advised us that Ministers have now agreed that full and final consideration of our 2012 business plan awaits the completion of separate reviews which are taking place in the two jurisdictions. The Northern Ireland review is due to be completed by the end of June and we are advised that the review in this jurisdiction is due to be completed soon afterwards.

This concludes my presentation and I am happy to deal with any questions from members.

Chairman

I advise members that there is a vote in the House but I will remain and members may ask questions when they return. The first question is from Ms Michelle Gildernew.

Ms Michelle Gildernew, MP, MLA

Go raibh maith agat. I welcome the delegation. This is an issue I asked to be put on the agenda of this committee a few months ago because of my fears as then Chair of the health committee about what seemed to be a dilution of the areas of work in which safefood is involved. It is a North-South body and its remit has been agreed in legislation so therefore it is accountable to the North-South Ministerial Council and not to the sponsoring Departments. The St. Andrews Agreement contained an agreement for a review period and this review looked at the functions of safefood which was deemed fit for purpose and value for money. In my view, this current review would seem to be a waste of time and money. I am disappointed that the Department in the South agreed to this review as it shows a certain amount of naivety on its part because surely it would know that another review so soon afterwards is just a stalling tactic in an effort to interfere with the work of safefood.

It is a concern that the chief executive, Mr. Higgins, has to deal with this current position. The Stop the Spread campaign was very successful both North and South and I congratulate him on the award. I weigh about one stone less because of the Stop the Spread campaign so less of me is delighted that Mr. Higgins is here today. It must be recognised that those messages which safefood has been sending out, whether about folic acid or obesity, are very relevant campaigns which have an impact on the health of the nation. safefood must be allowed to continue the work it has been mandated to do. Yesterday, the health committee visited the regional neonatal unit in Belfast and the children’s hospital and we were informed of how obesity in pregnancy was having an impact on the health of the mothers and the babies. Obesity is a very significant issue. Therefore, the campaign needed to be cranked up a gear but instead there is a stalemate while waiting for the completion of this review. If there is a delay in completion by a week or two, it will be July and everywhere in the North closes down in July. I am very concerned about the way in which safefood’s functions are being interfered with by the Department, given that its stake is only 30% of the funding arrangements for safefood. It is mind-boggling that the Department can have this impact on the functions of safefood.

I ask that this committee should write to the two Departments both North and South, and invite representatives of both Departments to attend the committee to explain why this current review and its results are being allowed to interfere in this very important area of work across the island. I thank Mr. Higgins for his attendance today and I ask him to keep the committee updated in advance of a further attendance, if this is agreed by the committee.

As we heard earlier from the Human Rights Consortium, one Minister is trying to water down the involvement of safefood in its all-Ireland work.

Dr. Alasdair McDonnell, MP, MLA

This is my first contact with safefood as an organisation and for that I am grateful. If I could be so bold and I know it is probably my fault, in my view, there could be more outreach on the part of the organisation as this would be useful in terms of connecting with people like me. However, it is my fault that I have not been engaged with the organisation.

Considering the progress made by safefood and despite all these obstructions, what is Mr. Higgins’s view of the progress made by the organisation since its establishment? Does he think the organisation is making progress in the right direction and has it achieved its potential? Mr. Higgins discussed the nutritional aspects of obesity and such matters. Does the organisation comment on alcohol consumption? In my view, I do not think obesity can be discussed without discussing alcohol consumption.

In regard to the Food Harvest 2020 project, does safefood have any input into policy regarding food exports? Does it have any role in improving food production standards across the island in terms of the system of connectivity, traceability and so on? I have asked a ragbag of questions, but it would be most helpful to have answers to as many as possible of them.

Mr. Conor Murphy, MP, MLA

Mr. Higgins said that safefood's business plans are currently awaiting the outcome of a review. What impact has that had on the organisation? Has its budget been agreed or is it effectively in a stalemate position whereby its business plans - which, I assume, management would have hoped to have agreed and progressed much sooner than this - are in abeyance until such time as both Departments carry out reviews that are parallel to or outside of the St. Andrews Agreement review that was agreed by both Governments? What is the day-to-day impact on the organisation of business plans being left hanging until the Departments come back with an agreed proposal?

Mr. Martin Higgins

I will begin by addressing Dr. McDonnell's question on outreach efforts. There has been a good deal of activity in this area. For example, we ran an eight-week programme of weight loss support for Oireachtas Members and Members of the Assembly, as referred to by Ms Gildernew. We have also given presentations to Members of both Parliaments on our activities and objectives. We are always open to any scheme of improved outreach to those who have influence in the food environment, and will be pleased to follow up any suggestions in this regard.

In regard to the progress that has been achieved, it is interesting that when safefood was set up in December 1999 the main driver was from a food safety perspective, as was the case with the Food Safety Authority and the Food Standards Agency in the United Kingdom. That focus is reflected in the legislation governing those bodies, with very little reference therein to nutrition and obesity. In the past 12 years, however, we have seen a shift in terms of the recognition of the threat represented by overweight, obesity and poor diet. We have been very successful in improving awareness among people in both parts of the island in regard to the health implications of carrying excess weight. A significant challenge in seeking to tackle obesity is that the extent of the problem is made increasingly invisible by environmental factors. Cars are larger than they were 20 years ago, for instance, as are medical equipment and hospital beds. There is a real sense in which being overweight and obesity have become the norm rather than the exception. I often challenge colleagues to compare photographs of street scenes taken in Dublin, Cork or Belfast 20 years ago with similar photographs from today. The difference in the size of people seen in these photographs is very apparent.

Our success in raising awareness of obesity as a problem which affects us all is evident from our research, which shows that more than 90% of people recognise the associated challenges. We have focused on simple measures to indicate overweight, such as the guideline that a waist size of 32 in. or more for women and 37 in. or more for men is indicative of a problem. To clarify, these are merely indicators - as I have often said, a man with a 36 in. waist cannot be considered healthy if he is drinking alcohol to excess and consuming a diet consisting entirely of fried foods. Nevertheless, the waist measurement advice offers a simple and useful tool for self-assessment. Alcohol consumption is a complex issue which has a range of implications for individuals' health and for society in general. From our perspective, there is an issue in terms of the calorie content of alcohol beverages, which is part of the consideration for a healthy diet. The broader health and societal impacts are not within our remit, but we do work with other health promotion bodies in seeking to address the issue. Likewise, physical activity is not within our remit but is a key factor in addressing obesity. There is a need for a joined-up approach.

In regard to food exports and improving productivity and traceability, it is increasingly recognised that the food industry is a major plank in recovery and growth into the future for the island as a whole. While we have no role in regard to traceability systems, that being a regulatory issue, we are involved in a number of knowledge networks across a range of activities which had previously been primarily the preserve of academics and researchers. We are opening up that network and there is increasing participation by people in industry. This is a useful way of allowing us to contribute to the knowledge of food issues without being involved directly in the regulatory issues.

In regard to our business plans, we are required to follow any instructions given to us by the North-South Ministerial Council. There is no question that we are faced with uncertainty in the absence of business plan approval and that our long-term planning capacity is affected. There are governance issues, for instance, when one is operating without an approved business plan. The Chairman might have some comment to make in this regard. We hope to see the issue resolved sooner rather than later.

Ms Lynn Ní Bhaoighealláin

In regard to the business plans, as an advisory board member for four years and having now taken over as chairman, it is certainly clear to me that the delay in signing off on the business plans has had an impact on the organisation. My main concern in this regard is that it is undermining all of the progress safefood has made in recent years, particularly in the area of obesity awareness. Our Stop the Spread campaign has proved very successful, with market research showing that the 32 in. and 37 in. waist measurement guidelines have struck a chord with the general public. Waist size is an easier measure to understand than body mass index, for example, and other methods of assessing whether a person is of a healthy weight. safefood has established itself as the go-to organisation in regard to obesity, with our sponsorship of RTE’s “Operation Transformation” allowing us to get the message about healthy eating across to a large audience throughout the island. Significant numbers have signed up to our website. We are trusted by the public, which is very important against the background of so many fad diets and a glut of misinformation. safefood provides clear guidelines on the small changes people can make to tackle overweight and obesity, rather than looking to fad diets for a solution.

My main concern is that in the absence of an approved business plan and the associated uncertainty in regard to future activities, we may not be in a position to follow through on the Stop the Spread campaign in a timely manner. This risks undermining all of the progress that has been achieved thus far. People are aware of safefood’s function and are looking to the website as a trusted source of information. That achievement will inevitably be undermined if there is a gap in our activity. safefood is an all-island body and the Stop the Spread campaign has greatly enhanced its recognition in the North. It is a great shame that politics are being played with our work, and I urge the committee to bring the matter to the fore of its consideration. We must have a business plan approved in order to continue our work. In terms of efficiency and cost effectiveness it makes no sense to undo all of the positive work we have done in recent years.

Dr. Alasdair McDonnell, MP, MLA

I thank Ms Ní Bhaoighealláin for being so frank and open in her reply. It is important for us to have this information. I will certainly work with Mr. Murphy, Ms Gildernew and others to do what we can to alleviate the situation.

Chairman

Likewise, the committee will take on board what Ms Gildernew has suggested. We will decide how to proceed at our private session discussion immediately following the conclusion of the meeting.

Mr. Higgins referred to a joined-up approach in conjunction with other health promotion bodies. With which other organisations does safefood already work?

Reference was made to the television programme "Operation Transformation" and a result of that programme healthy options have been put on the menu in the restaurants in the Houses. Is there a proposal regarding the food schools provide for students? My daughter's school is strict about that. Students can only bring in a treat one day a week and other than that it is pretty strict.

The food on offer for children in restaurants can often be of the worst quality. It may be chicken nuggets compared with what is offer for adults. The issue of the food that is available for children in restaurants is important.

Mr. Martin Higgins

The Chairman mentioned the choices available in canteens. That is the reason the workplace initiative was introduced. We were involved yesterday with the nutrition and health foundation in the Dáil and Don Rice has been very helpful and interested in providing healthy options.

In terms of moving people forward and influencing them, a number of strategies can be used. They are often described as "hug", "nudge", "smack" and "shove". The strategy in terms of "smack" is where legislation is introduced to make a practice illegal. The tobacco legislation would be a typical example of it. An example of a strategy in terms of "shove" is where the industry is encouraged to reduce salt levels in bread. The strategy in terms of "nudge" is an interesting one. It is where one pushes people in a direction. I read evidence of where making opaque the clear perspex covers on ice cream fridges located next to the checkout in workplace canteens and moving them a little away from that location led to a 30% reduction in ice cream consumption. There are opportunities to make such changes in the workplace but the position is different in the retail sector. The strategy in terms of "hug" is where we support community groups. We have seven demonstration projects in deprived areas of Cork, a project with asylum seekers in Killarney and several projects in Belfast. This is where we support communities individually. We cannot do that on a broad basis but we hope that the skills they learn can be transferred.

I agree fully with what the Chairman said about the food on offer for children. I have grandchildren and the food on offer for children when we go out for a meal can be quite poor. I would like to see an option for children on the menu, which many restaurateurs have introduced, of half portions of the adult offering, instead of, say, chicken nuggets and chips. The difficulty is in getting children to want that option. This is where the parents come into the picture in exposing children at a young age to those types of foods and fruit and vegetables but it is a big challenge.

Deputy Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan

With regard to our health services and how they treat one with food if one interacts with them, any time I have visited people in hospital, be it my wife when she was having a baby or a relative who was in for a procedure, I have found that after the procedure they were generally served toasted white bread. At what stage does it become a "no-no" to offer that? Patients are offered tea which is full of caffeine which leaches calcium out of their bones, leading to an increased chance of developing osteoporosis. Regardless of what message one puts out to the public advising people to be healthy, if after all those expensive messages it is still the case that when one ends up in hospital one is fed complete and utter rubbish, one wonders if there is any joined-up thinking. It does not make any sense. I complained about it a few times when relations of mine were in hospital and the reaction I got was that this has nothing to do with health, that is one's own issue. That is where the process should start.

Another issue concerns advertisements that tell us that we should have a bath with disinfectant otherwise we will all die. Such advertisements tell us to cover ourselves in disinfectant before we do anything. There are handwash products on offer that are organised in such a way that one does not have to touch them in advance because one might get germs from them. One of my constituents has a problem with hygiene in that they have a compulsive disorder and put plastic bags on their hands and feet to stop germs interacting with them and when opening a door they would have a plastic bag on their hand. Since many of these advertisements have been aired, one of the arguments put forward by that person is that they are being proved right, that one should become totally disinfected before one does anything. I would prefer to see my children run around in the muck developing their immune system. The advertisements being run have my daughters almost convinced that they should be scrubbing themselves within an inch of their lives, otherwise they will come down with something. I would like to hear Mr. Higgins's thinking on those two issues.

Mr. Martin Higgins

On the hospital food issue I accept that has been the practice traditionally. There is a recognition of the importance of a healthy diet, particularly for long-term patients. I had meant to respond to the Chairman's comment regarding a joined-up approach and it touches on the issues Deputy Flanagan raised. We set up an obesity action forum which allows all the bodies, whether they deal with the areas of physical activity, physiotherapy or cancer, to interact together and foster joined-up thinking. On the issue of the food, there is an increasing recognition among clinicians that food is a key issue in regard to health, particularly for older people. Many older people are malnourished not as a result of a lack of food but due to the change in their dietary needs. Deputy Flanagan referred to osteoporosis. There is a increasing recognition, particularly among people recovering from illness, of the importance of the role diet plays. The challenge for hospitals is feeding large numbers of people within budget considerations. There is a recognition among clinicians in hospitals that the food on offer, particularly for long-term patients, needs to be addressed.

I agree with what Deputy Flanagan said regarding disinfectants. Our recent research has shown that if one wants to keep a dishcloth clean, one should throw it in the washing machine because diluted bleach does not work. There is a great deal of marketing around the need for sprays but we always say hot, soapy water is an issue. There is no doubt that exposure at an early age to pathogens will increase resistance. However, we must also remember that vulnerability is an issue in the case of young children, people who are immuno-compromised, pregnant women and so on. Therefore, it is a question of balance. It is interesting that in the 1950s, 5,000 children a year were dying in Dublin from gastroenteritis and much of that came down to food conditions, unpasteurised milk and so on. I know there is a debate on the availability of pasteurised milk. It is a question of finding the balance between exposure to pathogens which increases resistance and also dealing with those who are vulnerable.

Deputy Joe McHugh

As I missed the bulk of the conversation, I do not want to repeat what has been said. I congratulate and commend the work of safefood in its intervention at school level. This is all about a mindset. Any organisation that can add value by getting people to question traditional mindsets is important. The big question that must be asked is where our food comes from. We all take it for granted and once it arrives on our plate we just accept it. We do not know from where the chickens and vegetables we eat come. Some 30 or 40 years ago people knew that because they grew their vegetables in their back gardens. The question of where our food comes from must start in primary and second schools. I am aware that the groups do that intervention work on a North-South basis and they must continue doing it.

On occasion groups are criticised and sometimes questions are asked as to whether there is a need for them when certain work is being done at a health service level or by the Department of Education and Skills. There is a need for groups to become more aggressive in challenging Departments on what they are doing. We are examining proposals on the location of chip vans near secondary schools. Groups have an opportunity to become more aggressive in challenging the mindset. I am aware that a good deal of intervention work is being done at an educational level through the schools, but there is an opportunity in that regard. We should not accept the status quo. I agree with Deputy Luke ‘Ming’Flanagan. Neither we nor the parents know from where the food served in hospitals comes. Having spoken to her, I know it would not win a Darina Allen food award. We should know from where the food served in Leinster House comes. Any group which challenges the mindset in terms of from where our food comes is important. I, therefore, wish the delegates well in their continued good work. I suggest the group should be more aggressive and challenge people within Departments because that is where the real debate must start.

Chairman

I ask Mr. Higgins to conclude by responding to Deputy Joe McHugh.

Mr. Martin Higgins

We need to exert influence wherever we can. Ours is not a regulatory body, but that does not absolve us in trying to influence the food environment. One of the processes in which we were involved was with the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland which, as members are aware, was involved in a consultation process regarding advertising to children. We were involved in that expert group. Providing an opportunity to present to Oireachtas Members and Members of the Assembly on a regular basis on issues that arise is important because they are the legislators and we should seize these opportunities. We constantly challenge our sponsoring Departments and ministerial directions, but they are responsible for policy. While we seek to influence it, we cannot write it. We have been given permission by the public to be more aggressive because there is a recognition of the challenges presented, both on the food safety side and in regard to healthy eating. We have taken up that challenge and hope to continue doing so.

Chairman

I thank our guests for their presentation which was very informative. The committee will take on board and follow up on some of the issues raised.

The joint committee went into private session at 1.55 p.m. and adjourned at 2 p.m. sine die.