Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement díospóireacht -
Thursday, 7 Mar 2024

Shared Island Unit: Department of the Taoiseach

An Cathaoirleach

We have received no apologies from members. On behalf of the committee I welcome officials from the shared island unit at the Department of the Taoiseach who are joining us today to discuss the unit's work to date and future plans. We are joined by Ms Émer Deane, assistant secretary, British, Irish and Northern Ireland affairs division, and Mr. Eoghan Duffy, principal officer. In a past role, Ms Deane was seconded to the Houses of the Oireachtas and has experience of working on the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. I am sure that she would have learned many skills from that activity. Her service there was very much acknowledged by the members. I thank them both for their attendance today.

There are limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. However, witnesses and participants who give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts does and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Witnesses are asked to note that only evidence connected with the subject matter of the proceedings should be given and should respect directions given by the Chair. Witnesses should respect parliamentary practice to the effect, where possible, they should neither criticise nor make charges against any persons, person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call Ms Deane to give her opening statement.

Ms Émer Deane

I thank the Chair and it is great to be back in the committee albeit in a different role. I welcome this opportunity to update the committee on implementation of the Government’s shared island initiative following on from my predecessors' attendance here in April of last year. As mentioned by the Chair, I am now assistant secretary in the Department of the Taoiseach with responsibility for the shared island unit. Many of the committee members will know Mr. Eoghan Duffy, the principal officer in that unit.

The shared island initiative is taken forward on a whole-of-government basis by Ministers and their Departments and agencies, working with Northern Ireland and UK counterparts. This work is driven and co-ordinated across Departments through the shared island unit in the Department of the Taoiseach. As the committee will be aware, on 20 February, the Taoiseach, Tánaiste, and the Minister, Deputy Ryan, announced a range of new funding allocations by the Government as part of the shared island initiative representing the largest ever package of Government funding for cross-Border investment. In making these announcements, the Taoiseach affirmed the Government’s commitment to work with the new Executive in Northern Ireland, and with the British Government, to deliver cross-Border investment co-operation that will make the island of Ireland a better place to live for all. This package of strategic investment coheres with the Government’s commitment to strand two of the Good Friday Agreement and to North-South co-operation more generally.

In many cases, as this committee will know, funding decisions by Government were in preparation for some time. Some of them reflect objectives set in the programme for Government and revised national development plan and some are commitments which go back right back to the 2020 New Decade, New Approach agreement. The commitments also reflect years of co-operation between successive Irish and British Governments and with the Northern Ireland Executive.

In summary, the Government announced funding commitments of more than €800 million comprised of: €600 million to the A5 north-west transport corridor, and advancing work in 2024 on the linked road projects: the N2 Clontibret to the Border and the Donegal TEN-T upgrades.

There were a range allocations from the shared island fund itself: to build the Narrow Water Bridge and to complete the Carlingford greenway; to contribute to the cost of re-construction of a redeveloped Casement Park in Belfast, including and in the context of the joint hosting with the UK of the 2028 UEFA European Football Championship; to introduce an hourly-frequency rail service between Belfast and Dublin before the end of this year; invest in a renewed visitor experience at the Battle of the Boyne site, which is a place of unique historic and community significance; to develop new co-operation schemes in the two areas, first in educational under-attainment and, second, the area of enterprise, including on female entrepreneurship; and also to move ahead with work to assist a United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, UNESCO world heritage status bid and development work for the trans-boundary astronomical observatories of Ireland sites.

These projects will now be taken forward by Ministers and their Departments in each sectoral area and in most cases working with Northern or UK counterparts.

More information on each of those projects has been provided to the committee in advance of today's meeting.

More substantial projects were progressed by the Government with the previous Northern Ireland Executive. There were the co-centres for research and innovation led by Science Foundation Ireland with institutional partners. These models are funded by the Irish Government, Northern Ireland Executive and British Government. Those two co-centres are now operational since January of this year. One is working in the area of climate, biodiversity and water, and the other in the area of sustainable food systems. Before this latest announcement the Government had previously allocated almost €250 million from the shared island fund to a range of programmes and projects. Some of the flagship projects include the teaching building at Ulster University in Derry and moving ahead with the Ulster Canal restoration.

We are now in a slightly different place, of course, with the return of the power-sharing executive and the Northern Ireland Assembly last month. That is hugely important for Northern Ireland and for what can be achieved under the Good Friday Agreement. It provides a hugely improved context for the Government as we take forward our work under the shared island initiative. As the Taoiseach said when he addressed the third shared island forum in Dublin Castle last month, the island has common challenges and we know what a number of these are, whether it is climate change, energy security or skills needs. It makes sense that as we face these we do it on a North-South or east-west basis where it makes more sense to do it in that way. The Government will now work with the new Northern Ireland Executive and through the North-South Ministerial Council, and with the British Government, to deepen investment and policy co-operation across key areas. The shared island initiative will continue to realise the potential of all-island investment co-operation to boost the all-island economy and to improve connections North and South.

Another part of our focus in the shared island initiative is about bringing people together. The Tánaiste and Minister Foreign Affairs introduced a new shared island civic fund last year. This is a €3 million fund operated by the Department of Foreign Affairs for civic groups. It is for them to form new North-South or east-west partnerships. Two funding rounds have taken place on this and a third one is planned for later this year. The Government has also made funding allocations in 2022 for the introduction of a shared island dimension to community climate action and the Creative Ireland programmes, and for bioeconomy projects. That is all under way. The bioeconomy call for proposals was announced just yesterday. The shared island allocations for five arts capital projects were announced in September and will be brought forward by An Comhairle Ealaíon and the Arts Council of Northern Ireland to provide new facilities for artistic exchange and audience engagement across the island in a range of areas including traditional music, writing and visual arts. There is long-standing and very important cross-Border interaction between local authorities. This has been supported through the shared island local authority development funding scheme. Over the past year, local authorities have been doing feasibility work on more than 20 proposals - I believe there are 23 proposals in now from local authorities - in areas around heritage, culture, tourism, enterprise, and climate action. Now that this work is completed by the local authorities the Department and agencies will examine those proposals and see which of them we can take to the next stage of development.

Alongside these cross-government investment and policy co-operation initiatives, the shared island unit also continues to take forward our programme of research and to foster our inclusive civic dialogue on a shared future for the island. The purpose of this research work is really about building an evidence base as well as civic interaction and consensus on the common concerns for the future of this island however it is constituted. The key elements of work in 2023 are set out in the annual report. The members have this so I will not go into detail at this point. The Economic and Social Research Institute presented to this committee last month and last year on the economic and social policy issues that they have examined as commissioned by the shared island unit. In 2023, this included research on housing supply factors, changing social and political attitudes, and student mobility. A report will be published next month on gender inequality and the labour market across the island. In all, 30 reports have been published to date through research partnerships with the ESRI, the National Economic and Social Council, NESC, the Irish Research Council, with the Standing Conference on Teacher Education, North and South, and with other partners. Research on an all-island labour market is nearing completion. This was commissioned as part of the shared island working group of the Labour Employer Economic Forum, LEEF. I am aware that this committees has also heard from the trade unions and from business representatives, including members of LEEF in recent months.

With regard to dialogue, last October the Tánaiste convened an event on accommodating national identities held at the Abbey Theatre, which a number of members of the committee attended. There was a wide-ranging discussion at that event on historical experiences and on the challenge now of how to accommodate an increasingly diverse national identity on the island of Ireland. The Cathaoirleach and other political representatives also attended a shared island dialogue on the education system, which was held last June. This was to focus on what a more ambitious approach to connecting communities through education might look like. There was also an event last year - since the last time we appeared before this committee - on media representation on the island. This was held in the convention centre in April. In total, more than 1,000 representatives attended shared island dialogues last year. Published reports, video summaries, press and social media dimensions form parts of all of those events.

Civic society dialogue is also going on in other places and supported through the fund. This includes the all-island women's forum which is being run by the National Women's Council and the i-Community hub, which is a co-operation between The Wheel and the Northern Ireland Council for Voluntary Action. These are being supported through the civic fund. There is also a shared island youth forum, which started its work last September, with 80 young civic representatives aged 18 to 25 from across very diverse backgrounds. One of the members may have presented to this committee last month in a hearing with young representatives. As part of its work the shared island youth forum has been asked to consider the future of the island across a couple of themes: sustainability, opportunity, well-being, equality, culture, and identity. The forum will produce their statement on their vision and their values for the future of this shared island. That statement will be considered by the Government and launched in the autumn. Hopefully it will help contribute to the next iterations of our dialogue work.

The shared island unit will continue the dialogue and research programmes throughout this year to inform the development of the initiative in overall terms and with the focus on widening our interaction with people across all communities and traditions on this island. I thank the Chair and the committee members for their interest and am happy to take any questions.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Deane for her attendance and for the detail she has given on the recent announcement. It is very helpful. It is really a sign of the progress for the future that we can make on this island. These are the days we get to see Michelle O'Neill and Emma Little-Pengelly playing hurling - or was it camogie - and we must not forget to mention the education Minister, Paul Givan, and his dancing - although it was hardly the Siege of Ennis. It was great to see him Irish dancing. Let us be honest; times are changing and there is a new atmosphere. I welcome the prominent involvement of the deputy First Minister in community activities. Long may it continue. It augurs very well, as does the funding that has been provided. It is remarkable the future we could have together regardless of political differences. As a Deputy for County Louth, I must acknowledge the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Simon Coveney, for the work he did as the Minister for Foreign Affairs, and the Minister of State, Deputy Patrick O' Donovan, in particular for the Narrow Water Bridge development. They visited there a couple of years ago and we went through the process and the projects they had in mind, which I am delighted to see coming to fruition. I would like Ms Deane to pass on our thanks to them personally. It is very important that the work of people like this who step up to the mark is acknowledged. With regard to the whole future of the island, the Boyne Valley, which was the cause of so much dissension and trouble in our past history, can become a focus for peace and a centre for all shades of opinion and especially unionist opinion and so on. Obviously for cross-Border activity the Narrow Water Bridge is important to everybody North and South and particularly in County Louth, where I live, and in County Down for tourism.

It really is a new departure, and it will obviously have significant developments elsewhere on the island, particularly the road between Derry and Dublin.

We agreed at the beginning that the time members would have would be ten minutes, within reason. There is no issue with that. The order is Fine Gael, Sinn Féin, Fianna Fáil, Independents, Alliance, Sinn Féin, SDLP and so on.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

I thank the Chair. I am sharing my time with Senator Emer Currie. It is great to see Mr. Duffy and Ms Deane in here again, and I thank them for all of the great work they are doing. From my contacts, the €800 million is very much welcomed. There are a lot of projects there that will make a difference.

With regard to one project, I represent the constituency of Sligo-Leitrim as well as north Roscommon and south Donegal. It is on the Border. One area where I have an interest - and I think it is gone in from the local authority under the cross-Border section between local authorities - is Glenfarne Wood. That is on the M16, and it is the home of the Rainbow Ballroom of Romance. It is also part of the SLNCR greenway between Sligo and Enniskillen, which will link up with the Sligo greenway. A lot of good work has been done but I would certainly like to say that the area would not be forgotten. A lot of people did not realise that the Glenfarne estate was effectively the home of Sir Edward Harland from Harland and Wolff. He died there on 24 December 1895. All of the flagstone that made up the Titanic quay in Belfast came from Glenfarne. It is one area where there is a huge shared history, and most people, certainly in the North, do not understand that history was there. It is something to which I would like to lend my weight on behalf of my constituency of Sligo-Leitrim and north Roscommon and south Donegal.

Again, I thank the witnesses for all of the great work they are doing. It makes a difference.

Senator Emer Currie

It is great to have Ms Deane and Mr. Duffy here, and I thank them for how accessible they are on projects. It must be great to have roles that are so positive. The news that the North-South Ministerial Council, NSMC, is going to meet again takes the pressure off in some regard. When the North-South strands were not operating, we were coming to the witnesses to assist us in forging North-South co-operation and opportunities, and now it is great to see that will be re-established. I want to give a nod to the hugely positive work the unit is doing in recognising opportunities, taking on shared challenges, one-island approaches and two-island approaches. It has been hugely beneficial.

Moving on, Deputy Feighan and I wanted to focus on the Sligo-Enniskillen greenway and the Glenfarne Wood opportunities. The Part 8 application is complete and that included a boardwalk, a permanent platform and 3 km of new greenway. There is open swimming and a trail. To Deputy Feighan and I, it is a perfect example of where the shared island focus should go because of that history but also because of the very practical improvements it is going to bring to that region, in terms of both recreation and tourism. We hope that is something we can start communicating with the witnesses directly about.

The second issue I wanted to mention was some work I am doing on gambling and gambling awareness. There is an organisation called Gambling with Lives. It is UK-based but it is very much of the view that the challenges we face with problem gambling are the same, north and south of the Border, and that there is certainly a piece to do around education and awareness. It has a programme that is ready to roll out. I have introduced it to Foróige, and the organisation is looking at including it in its programmes. However, at the moment there is no real home for it because the social impact funding that will come under the new gambling regulator is not ready to go. This is also a slightly different proposition because it is an all-island approach and, therefore, I wondered if there could be a home for that in the shared island initiative, and opening up that conversation. The GAA is interested, and it would be great to get it onto the curriculum. As Foróige has a presence all over the island with our target audience, that is something we should pursue.

I also wanted to know what the programme is for educational underattainment. It is really important, and probably has not got the attention that it deserves in light of the unionist welcoming of the work that will do. There is a lot of interest in what it is going to look like. Taking on the role of making sure the peace and Good Friday Agreement dividend extends to everybody should be a core objective of the unit's work, and I am very pleased to see it in there.

Ms Émer Deane

I thank the Deputies. There are a few things there. Deputy Feighan and Senator Currie both referred to the greenway project, and also the fact that we have the NSMC back. Senator Currie is absolutely right. We are in a new context now where we can again have that official-level contact between Ministers and their Northern counterparts. We hope that the NSMC will start meeting again from next month, and that will make a real difference. As I said in my presentation, a lot of the work that is being carried out by the shared island initiative is picking up on commitments made previously, whether that was co-operation between the two administrations or, in the case of the greenway, it goes back to the New Decade, New Approach agreement and commitments there.

The greenway very much continues to be a priority because it is a commitment we are hoping, through the shared island fund, to be able to bring to the next phase. On the greenway project itself, the objective is to ultimately link it completely from west to east, and to look at the different parts that are in place. That work is continuing, and as I understand it the Department is led here by the Department of Transport and by the Department for Infrastructure in Northern Ireland. The next meeting on that is going to take place later this month, so that is certainly on our radar, and like I said, fits in with those other priorities that have come through NDNA.

On educational underattainment, this is an area that goes back to the NSMC. It was an area that was identified through the council as a priority for both administrations. It is really great to be able to pick up on that work. What will happen now is the two Ministers will work to develop a pilot project on how best they feel they can assist in creating a programme around educational underattainment. As we know, the Northern Ireland report, A Fair Start, and our own research through the fund show that there is a significant difference in educational attainment between the two jurisdictions. That is something that we want to look at and take forward. There are other elements to that as well. There will be an online resource for teachers to share their experience on best practice in the classroom in dealing with underattainment. A few of the programmes, such as T-REX, ESB Science Blast and those who are more familiar with it, will all be part of that.

On the gambling issue, I am happy to take that away and to think about how we might talk to Foróige to see what it is doing, and where we can link in with it. I am happy for the Senator to put it in touch with us.

An Cathaoirleach

We will go to Sinn Féin, who have ten minutes.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I think Mr. Brady is going to go next.

An Cathaoirleach

That is no problem.

Mr. Mickey Brady

I thank the shared island unit for its presentation and commend the witnesses on the work they have done to date. I was very glad to hear them mention the astronomical sites. I visited Armagh Observatory and Planetarium last week, and it does wonderful work.

I have a couple of questions. Business organisations, North and South, have presented their views to the committee over the past year. Many have mentioned that joint planning by the Government and the Executive in the North in the context of an all-island economy is important. Have the witnesses considered carrying out research into how this might be achieved? Would such a planning body be best placed under the remit of the North-South Ministerial Council?

Ms Émer Deane

On the all-island economy, the planning issue is not something that we have looked at specifically. Much of the work of the shared island fund is about developing, boosting and underpinning the all-island economy. For instance, in the latest round, one of the headline programmes will be to get the three enterprise agencies on the island to work together for the first time and to identify where they have shared objectives. We already know that they are looking at the areas of female entrepreneurship, clustering, and business supports for SMEs in the area of innovation. As work develops in that space, we can perhaps also ask the agencies to come to us if they see obstacles in carrying out their work. From a shared island unit perspective, we listen to what the Departments and agencies tell us where they see an opportunity to build on a cross-Border, all-island basis, to remove obstacles to efficiencies and to build the all-island economy. I am not aware of any proposal from any entity that has come to us yet about planning.

Mr. Eoghan Duffy

From a different angle, the national development plan, NDP, and the national planning framework have both always had significant cross-Border dimensions. When the NDP was revised in 2021, much work was done across Departments to see how that could be updated and the level of interest and ambition from Government was reflected in the NDP. The national planning framework review will also take account of the Government's shared island objectives. It is a slightly broader frame, but that is part of what we were referring to as well.

Deputy Pauline Tully

Good morning to the witnesses. I thank them for their presentation. I also commend the work of the shared island unit. It does a great deal of important work across many areas.

I welcome the investment in the A5 north-west transport corridor. A small part of that is in my constituency of Cavan-Monaghan. It is the N2 from Clontibret to the Border. That is so important because not only will it bring benefits to the area, it will also save many lives because it is such a dangerous road.

The other scheme is the Ulster Canal restoration. I see the work ongoing there every time I go through Clones. That is really welcome. I hope that will continue.

I am interested in the educational attainment. The witnesses answered questions from Senator Currie. That is important work. I am also interested in supports for female entrepreneurs. I want to refer to disabled entrepreneurs. We often hear that the supports for disabled people to set up their own businesses are not sufficient. They do not meet the needs of disabled people. Could they be expanded to look at not just female entrepreneurship, which is important and I would like to hear more about, but also to look at disabled people too? It would be really beneficial.

The witnesses referred to work on climate change and energy security. The laws on smoky and smokeless fuel in the North and the South differ. In the South, we have stricter laws on what fuel can be burned. When you live in a Border county, smoky fuel is sold much cheaper just north of the Border, so people go there to buy their fuel. This is not monitored. Those selling fuel south of the Border are very concerned because they obey the law, pay their carbon tax and sell smokeless fuel. That fuel is much more expensive. This is an issue because it has an impact in the context of climate change. Can anything be done to harmonise our laws, North and South, on fuel, types of fuel and the damage it is doing to our environment? One cannot blame people in a cost-of-living crisis for buying what is cheaper. We have people who buy in bulk and sell illegally around the area, not just in the Border counties. It is an issue I have raised with the Minister for the environment, but there is no environment. The local authorities are supposed to enforce this but are not given the resources to do so.

An Cathaoirleach

I think they have officers.

Deputy Pauline Tully

They do, but-----

An Cathaoirleach

I agree with the Deputy. I have raised this issue myself. The other problem is that one can deliver coal from the Northern base to places in the South cheaper than one can commercially purchase that on sale in the South.

Deputy Pauline Tully

You can even order online.

An Cathaoirleach

It is a huge issue. It is a health issue. The Deputy is absolutely right.

Deputy Pauline Tully

The witnesses carry out so much important research. It is great to know that this research is informing Ministers in their work. One would not like to see research being done for the sake of it and just sitting on a shelf somewhere. I really welcome the fact that it is informing policy going forward.

Ms Émer Deane

I thank the Deputy. Obviously, the A5 is a flagship project. Everyone has waited a very long time. There was another tragedy on it this week. It is a cross-Border infrastructural project but it is also about road safety. We hope that can commence this year. For that reason, the Government decided that now is the time to be clear about the supports that it can provide to that really important project, as the Deputy said, and the link projects, such as Clontibret to the Border and, on the far side, the Donegal TEN-T project.

Phase 2 of the Ulster Canal project is about to be completed. We should see finished that in April or May. Preparation for phase 3 is under way.

Deputy Pauline Tully

Very good.

Ms Émer Deane

It will happen in a couple of different parts. From a shared island unit perspective, that commitment of €47 million in funding stands and will be programmed in as Waterways Ireland develops the project itself.

The entrepreneurship programme is an area that the three enterprise agencies have identified as a priority that they all share. I am happy to bring to their attention what the Deputy has said to us today and ask them to consider disabled entrepreneurs and whether they can agree on that as a priority focus.

There are a number of issues relating to fuel, whether revenue, health or the environment. It might be an issue that is best raised in the context of the North-South Ministerial Council because, ultimately, I think that is the level that the dialogue would have to take place on, to co-ordinate different standards and rules applying in the two jurisdictions.

An Cathaoirleach

On that point, if we, as a committee, can agree that we can follow that up later on, we could write to the Department. This is a significant issue. I thank the Deputy for making the point. Deputy Conway-Walsh has a minute left if she wants.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I would need more than a minute.

An Cathaoirleach

I am only joking. We will come back to the Deputy if she wants.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

At this point, I want to acknowledge Aingeal O'Donoghue and the really good work that she did. It is not easy to set up a unit like that. I want to commend her work and the work that is being done here. I am looking forward to being able to develop some of that in my next slot.

An Cathaoirleach

Ms O'Donoghue has left the Department of the Taoiseach and is ambassador to the EU.

Ms Émer Deane

That is right. I will pass it on to her.

An Cathaoirleach

She was always available and helpful.

Deputy Brendan Smith

Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe. It is heartening to have that outline of progress and indeed this shared island initiative as launched by Deputy Micheál Martin in the latter half of 2020. Much as been achieved in a relatively short space of time. There was cynicism initially at the announcement of the unit's establishment, but, thankfully, all political viewpoints are now clearly in favour of the good work that is under way and that is so visible.

We see the Ulster Canal in my constituency. That major project would not have gone ahead without the significant financial injection from the shared island fund, which is very welcome. It builds on the Ballinamore-Ballyconnell Canal, as it was known before the restoration of it to the Shannon-Erne Waterway, which is in my immediate home area.

Many projects that are now being funded were amplified on many occasions by deputations and groups coming before the committee. I remember groups from Donegal, Tyrone and Monaghan coming before this committee regarding the N2 from Clontibert to the Border and the A5. It is great to see that commitment of very substantial funding.

I look forward to the development of multipurpose stadium in Casement Park in west Belfast. I also look forward to the Ulster final continuing to be played in Clones in my constituency. Cavan has been a very successful Ulster county over many years and has enjoyed many happy days in Clones. We had them in Casement Park as well, so we look forward to more good days in Clones in Ulster finals in the future. Hopefully, we will all be able to go to other events in Casement Park in the future be they music events or, please God, the European Championships or some other GAA games.

When we visited west Belfast and the Shankill Road on numerous occasions, the lack of educational attainment and the divergence in the level of educational attainment in this State and Northern Ireland were issues that always came up. The witnesses mentioned UNESCO world heritage status. Counties Cavan and Fermanagh are fortunate in having had for quite some time the first UNESCO recognised cross-Border geopark in the world in Cuilcagh Lakelands UNESCO Global Geopark. It has a very good proposal with the shared island unit as well. It is a fascinating initiative. I know Gráinne O'Connor from that group presented at one of the shared island unit's forums.

It was at one of the first meetings in Omeath following the establishment of the shared island unit that I, along with An Cathaoirleach and others, suggested that the unit draw on the expertise and corporate knowledge of our local authorities. This was because many of those local authorities worked with their counterparts North of the Border and tried to do projects together during the darkest days on this island. To be fair, there were people who were Members of this House and members of local authorities who were way ahead of their time in their thinking about what could be done on a cross-Border and all-Ireland basis. I am very glad that local authorities are central to the work of the shared island unit. When the Tánaiste, Deputy Micheál Martin, was Taoiseach, he announced in Cavan the feasibility studies referred to by Ms Deane for a local authority in our jurisdiction collaborating with colleagues North of the Border to put forward proposals regarding different initiatives. I remember how on the day in Cavan, the cathaoirligh of the different local authorities, North and South, were there. Regardless of the political viewpoints they held, they embraced the concept of getting funding for initiatives that they often thought could never be realised so drawing on local authorities is very important.

At my request, this committee met with the county councils in Cavan and Monaghan regarding the development of enterprise centres. The witnesses would have heard me speak previously, and I also put questions to the Taoiseach and Tánaiste about the importance of developing a network of enterprise centres in Cavan and Monaghan. Both counties struggle to attract inward investment because of the history of troubles on our doorstep over the years. Enterprise centres have been the catalyst for many firms. Many international firms in my constituency that are household names started out in enterprise centres. I am speaking about the local authorities in Cavan and Monaghan because I am more familiar with them. They have put very scarce resources into the development of such work space.

Funds are available from Enterprise Ireland and other national agencies to develop the buildings, but buying and developing the sites and doing the groundwork, such as providing the necessary water, sewerage and other services, is a huge burden on local authorities. When this committee met the local authorities in Cavan and Monaghan, we put forward the idea of our councils working in collaboration with the northern counterparts. Could specific funding to enable the less financially resourced councils to develop work space be provided? I am very glad about the recent announcement of the enterprise scheme. Detailed workings on that may not have come to fruition. If my request could be fed into the decision-making process to give local authorities some assistance in preparing for the development of actual work space, such as groundworks and the purchasing of sites, that would be welcome. The success rate of enterprise centres has been significant and we can build on that.

Individual representation at the shared island fora has been significant. It is a great dialogue process. It was great to see the First Minister and deputy First Minister playing camogie yesterday. I think of the work of Linda Ervine in east Belfast. Whatever could be done to support her work in the development of naonraí and primary education would be a great return for the taxpayers' investment in the shared island unit. I applaud the good work of the witnesses and all those who have been involved in the shared island unit since it was established. We look forward to more projects being funded.

Ms Émer Deane

The Deputy touched on the work of this committee. The shared island unit follows what this committee does very closely. I spent four years as an adviser to this committee. I recognise the importance of a committee such as this in keeping issues on the agenda, promoting them and making sure they are priorities in programmes for Government and other places.

The Deputy also mentioned local authorities. I could not agree more. In particular, when there was no Executive in Northern Ireland, local authorities continued to drive North-South co-operation in an amazing way that the shared island unit could not have done without. I acknowledge this in the Deputy's area and the north west involving co-operation between Donegal and Derry-Strabane is another great example.

The Deputy mentioned the Ulster Canal. We hope the second phase of that will be completed in the coming weeks. This will be a very significant moment. We will then move immediately into phase three.

I will not comment on the Ulster final, but we all want to see Casement Park redeveloped. It has particular importance for the shared island unit because it is an east-west project of which there are not too many. It involves the British and Irish Governments' successful joint bid to host the European Championships. The reason why the Irish Government is coming forward at this point with a commitment to Casement Park is to try to ensure we can provide the momentum for the stadium to be redeveloped in time for that competition.

The Deputy mentioned the beautiful Cuilcagh boardwalk trail. It is one of the projects under the local authority scheme, which is just at the point where they are going to be taken together and examined by the line Departments. It is certainly one of the projects under consideration.

Regarding enterprise centres, there may be scope within the work to be undertaken by the enterprise agencies. I do not think they have settled on the model of what they are going to do but it is likely that there are probably other funding streams that might be relevant here such as PEACE funding so it might be a question of working out a basket of funding around enterprise centres.

We are very aware of the great work of Linda Ervine, Naíscoil na Seolta and how it is developing and are looking to see how we might co-operate with her in the next phase of its development. Does Mr. Duffy have anything to add?

Mr. Eoghan Duffy

The Deputy spoke about the significance of the work local authorities have being doing for decades on a cross-Border basis. This is something we are keen to connect with. They are also very well placed to bring together the different funding sources from across the system so part of the work we will be doing with local authorities whether it be on Cuilcagh or enterprise centres will be to see how we can join those dots and bring together all the different funding streams, which local authorities are so well placed to see, and deliver in practice. That will be the focus for us.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Wynne is present. I will call her because I said I would call her next. Dr. Farry will be after her.

Deputy Violet-Anne Wynne

I thank the Cathaoirleach. I thank the witnesses for the opening statement.

The discussion so far has been very interesting. I was very interested in the information the officials provided on the dialogue series and how they sought to include under-represented voices in the peace process. Women, young people and ethnic minority communities were mentioned. Will the witnesses expand on that? Through its work, the committee has sought to include as many quiet voices as possible. We think that is important. Will they elaborate on the processes they were able to achieve in bringing those people and representations into their work? That would be most helpful.

On the shared island enterprise initiative, it was mentioned that the Government made an allocation in principle of up to €30 million for the development of a scheme to focus on promoting female entrepreneurship. Will the officials also expand on that? We have heard about childcare issues in the North. We have our own childcare issues in the South as regards lack of availability and cost. Are there childcare supports that might be included around female entrepreneurship?

On cross-Border health and education strategies, what is the unit's remit with respect to assisting organisations in either region that want to work on a cross-Border basis? We have heard about the salary differences between teachers in the North and the South. Will the unit's work incorporate any strategy to harmonise that?

Ms Émer Deane

The issue of under-represented groups goes right back to the early days of the shared island unit. NESC undertook some research on behalf of the unit, which pointed to the fact that the unit needed to get out there and connect with the wider public to identify our next range of priorities. We have gone to civic society itself. In fact, the civic fund was set up as a response to that. The civic fund is administered by the Department of Foreign Affairs and the Tánaiste. It gives funding to civic society groups to establish new North-South connections. We have relied on such groups to a great extent, whether it is the National Women's Council, the Wheel or the youth forum, where we work with the National Youth Council of Ireland, to help us identify groups or communities, which we do not necessarily have direct knowledge of. That has worked very well. There is a lot of experience and expertise in civic society, especially in those umbrella groups. We work very closely with them.

Education is a recognised aspect of North-South co-operation. We are hopeful that when the North-South Ministerial Council plenary meets, that will be followed up at a sectoral level, whereby Ministers will meet their counterparts in Northern Ireland on a regular basis. We expect those meetings to start in the coming weeks. That is probably the best place to have that strategic discussion about North-South co-operation in the space of education.

The female entrepreneurship scheme is at a very early stage. There have been some interesting ideas, all of which we will bring back. It is a programme that will be developed by the enterprise agencies working to the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Coveney, in this jurisdiction and the Minister for the Economy, Conor Murphy, in Belfast. It is at a very early stage. It will need to reflect the priorities of both Departments and the agencies. We have heard a few ideas today we will go back to them with as they continue to design the scheme over the coming weeks.

An Cathaoirleach

Dr. Farry is the next speaker. I remind people of what we agreed at the beginning. Dr. Farry will be followed by Sinn Féin, the SDLP and Fine Gael. That is just the way the order fell today. Dr. Farry is very welcome.

Dr. Stephen Farry

I thank the Chair. Good morning to Ms Deane and Mr. Duffy. I thank them for all their hard work in this area. We very much welcome the work of the shared island unit. It is a tremendous example of practical North-South co-operation in action and making a real difference.

I will focus on looking ahead. There has been a massive announcement right behind the officials. What do they think is the timescale for the next round of programme announcements? What is the lead-in time for developing future projects? I appreciate that quite a few of the announcements made in recent times had a very long lead-in time for development, in many respects. I would also like to get a sense of the balance between capital and revenue. Will the shared island unit still largely prioritise capital projects? I appreciate there have been a few revenue-linked areas for projects but, due to the spending constraints and tails of commitment, is the intention to still lean very heavily towards the capital area?

To what extent is the mapping of future areas of co-operation structured? Is it still ad hoc, depending on the initiative of different Ministers and Departments, North and South? How will a framework be put in place to ensure that is done on the basis of a proper needs-based analysis? I am very conscious of the revenue situation with the Northern Ireland budget. The huge problems with that have been well articulated.

On capital pressures, again, there is massive oversubscription in terms of available resources versus the potential projects. To what extent has the shared island unit been cited on, in effect, the full ambit of the Northern Ireland investment plan in its current draft form to see where there are opportunities for tie-up?

Some of my colleagues talked about education quite a bit. I will talk more about health co-operation. Examples of training places for future medical professionals in universities have been presented. How do we ensure those provide an investment in the workforce in Northern Ireland and do not simply provide a route for training more people for the labour market in the South? I am particularly mindful of the growing distortions in salary levels, especially in the areas of education and health. These are causing difficulties. In particular, with many difficult decisions coming up in the health area in Northern Ireland in future years, and no doubt in the South as well, how can that mapping and investment be done? There is a very clear example in the south Down-Armagh area, where there is a lot of concern about Daisy Hill Hospital versus what may will be, from a purely Northern perspective, the need to invest heavily in the Craigavon area. Taking a wider perspective, however, Daisy Hill becomes much more strategically located. How is that aspect becoming a tangible factor in ongoing planning?

I appreciate there is quite a bit in all that. I will leave the officials to work through as much of it as they can.

Ms Émer Deane

I will take the question on when we will make the next announcements first, as it is maybe the easier one. Generally, we try to do two announcements a year. I expect we will do more towards the back end of the year, sometime in the autumn.

The nature of the fund continues to involve all capital projects. We do not think that will change. A certain amount of money goes to the dialogue and research strands but, in the main, the shared island fund is for capital projects. The priorities for the fund are very much informed by the programme for Government, the national planning framework, and the revised national development plan, as well as the priorities established through the North-South Ministerial Council.

As I was saying earlier, with the Northern Ireland Executive now operating again, there is a great opportunity as the programme for government in Stormont is agreed to see areas for potential new co-operation. We will, therefore, watch that closely. I expect that will come through the NSMC and, even more importantly in some ways, the sectoral meetings that will be held beyond that.

Dr. Farry mentioned health co-operation. That is an area we would expect will come more to the fore over the next period. There has, of course, been great work done in terms of Altnagelvin and child cardiac care, but there is more that could be done. Specifically on the medical places in Northern Ireland, in the most recent announcement by the Ministers, Deputies Harris and Donnelly, about 25 medical places in Queen's University Belfast, they were very clear to say that the aim is to build the skills base and labour force on the island to the benefit of both jurisdictions. I accept Dr. Farry's point that we need more in that sector and, therefore, as identified in the NESC report and as mentioned by the Taoiseach in the shared Ireland forum, skills will be another area of focus for us in the years ahead.

Dr. Stephen Farry

I will come back very briefly on one point. It is not strictly speaking an issue for the shared island unit, but Ms Deane's last point around skills points to the fact that both jurisdictions probably need to do more in terms of labour market planning on an all-island basis, building on the points made previously around the all-island economy as well because there are considerable distortions. It is probably a bigger conversation for another day, however.

Ms Émer Deane

On that point, a piece of work has been carried out by the LEEF precisely on the labour market on the island and the challenges it faces across jurisdictional issues, which I expect will be published next month.

Dr. Stephen Farry

That is great. I look forward to that. I thank Ms Deane very much.

An Cathaoirleach

We will now move back Sinn Féin.

Deputy Pauline Tully

Deputy Conway-Walsh intended to come in but she has just nipped out for a moment. We can move on and come back to her.

An Cathaoirleach

We will go back to her when she comes in. We will take Ms Hanna, please.

Ms Claire Hanna

I thank the Chair very much. I thank Ms Deane and Mr. Duffy for the presentation. I echo the Chair's comments about the new mood at the Assembly and the positive images we have seen in the past few days in particular. I urge the Executive to keep at it. I also want to thank the shared island unit for the very substantial package last month. It is obviously really meaningful both in intent and substance. It will get quite a few significant projects over the line and give a big boost to others, not least Casement Park, which is, of course, meaningful to so many people in the North. Its appeal will hopefully be really broadened if it is part of the Euro 2028 project. They are correct to locate it as an east-east investment and initiative, too, in light of the joint Euro 2028 project it facilitates. It is obviously important that we are also thinking in that direction.

I separately want to thank the unit for being very accessible and open to scoping things with people, even if it does not quite match what it is doing. Mr. Duffy met me and representatives from a brilliant local autism project in my constituency that works in a very diverse corner of south Belfast, which contains probably the most diverse pocket of human beings on the island of Ireland. Even though what the unit is funding at the moment maybe does not directly match, I really appreciated the engagement and signposting.

I want to pick up on two other issues that are more thematic than capital based but that are vital for everyday life and very ripe for more North-South co-operation. Dr. Farry mentioned health and, obviously, there are opportunities for day-to-day North-South co-operation through the Ministers and the NSMC. People were talking this morning on BBC radio's "Good Morning Ulster" programme about North-South cancer care and a memorandum of understanding that was signed in 1999. It strikes me that we definitely have not picked that up as much as we can. Has the shared island unit had dialogue in the area of health? Are there any projects or anything else in the offing in this regard?

The second issue is about renewables and net zero targets. We are exploring this in the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee at the moment and trying to understand what the barriers are to expanding renewables in the North in particular, obviously, with a view to meeting our net zero targets. It is probably clear even just to look at it, but the data and analysis we have got indicates that the South is adding to its renewables capacity at 20 times the pace we are in the North. It is ludicrous to consider the possibility of doing just transition and fighting the climate emergency in a way that is not coherent North and South. Obviously, there is much for the Executive to do on planning and incentives. Is it something the unit has had a dialogue event on or is there anything planned? Is there anything on which the witnesses have thoughts? I am aware that we are all basically bringing every thorny North-South project to their door and asking how they are going to solve them, but those are two issues that I thought might match what the unit is doing.

Ms Émer Deane

I thank Ms Hanna for that. I will let Mr. Duffy speak on the specifics of the dialogues. On the two areas she mentioned, health and specifically cancer care and then energy security, again, they are absolutely the priorities identified by the Taoiseach. They are two of the three priorities, the third of which was skills, that he identified at the most recent shared island forum in Dublin Castle last month. They are places in which it makes absolute sense to work on an all-island basis. In terms of energy security, obviously, we have a single electricity market and we have our interconnector and, therefore, whatever we develop in terms of renewables will have an impact in both jurisdictions. There is good work going on between the Departments and it is ongoing. If there is a specific added value the shared island unit can bring, we are always open to doing that.

On North-South cancer care, again, there is very good work going on between the Departments. The Ministers spoke recently and will meet next month. Cancer care and especially specialist cancer care is one of the items on the agenda because, again, when we have a small island with a small demographic, it makes sense to create the scale to be able to provide specialist cancer services that neither jurisdiction could provide on their own. Therefore, it is absolutely an area of interest for us. Hopefully, next time we appear before this committee, we will have something to say in that space.

Mr. Eoghan Duffy

On health and cancer care, in the unit directly, Professor Deirdre Heenan did a piece of work for us at an early stage to scope out areas of potential in the healthcare sector that identify cancer. Separately, under the North-South research programme, the All-Island Cancer Research Institute has got substantial funding to do its work on clinical questions around cancer care and making links there. I am sure that will then feed into the thinking the two health Departments and health systems are doing on how that could actually be done. There is much potential there. There is US-Ireland-Northern Ireland co-operation on cancer research as well. There is a lot there, but there is undoubtedly more to do to bring it from the research into the service delivery area.

On renewables, two of the Departments, namely, the Department of Transport on our side and the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland, are looking at green hydrogen transport for heavy duty vehicles and how that could be integrated. A piece of scoping research was done on the regulatory environment and safety frameworks and they are now looking at feasibility work for a pilot programme. There is very strong interest from the two Departments on that. Obviously, it connects in with wider climate action activities for both administrations and, indeed, at a UK level. It has the potential to bring different climate action funding streams, which is something the shared island unit is hopeful to see on hydrogen. That is obviously one piece of a much bigger jigsaw.

Ms Claire Hanna

I thank the witnesses very much.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Hanna very much. We will go back to Sinn Féin. I kept Deputy Conway-Walsh's slot for her.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

The Chair is very good.

An Cathaoirleach

I am very kind.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank the Cathaoirleach. I am thankful for the discussion so far too. When it is said there is a whole-of-government approach, does that mean there is a section in each of the Departments that deals with North-South engagements, such as capital expenditure, North-South strategy, etc?

Ms Émer Deane

Yes. Generally, Departments will have a North-South section to support their Ministers in their engagement in terms of the North-South Ministerial Council. Regarding the shared island fund, we are often working with that section in a Department, but also with the specialist section delivering the project, whether it is the Narrow Water Bridge or the Ulster Canal. That section might not necessarily be housed in the North-South section of a Department; it could be part of the line section dealing with waterways or whatever the specialism may be.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I am just trying to establish whether there is a dedicated unit in each Department looking at North-South projects and planning. I will explain why I wish to know about this context. There are several reasons. Deputy Louise O'Reilly and I met the British Irish Chamber of Commerce the other day as well, which is the collective representative group for businesses. Its representatives were all talking about challenges and opportunities in terms of growth, prosperity and all that. The mention of the whole-of-government approach led me to wonder if there are dedicated units in each area looking at the things being raised. I am asking because, as is often the case, businesses are ahead of the curve in terms of how we need to be planning in this regard.

Ms Émer Deane

Yes. Generally, Departments do have a North-South section. This is a priority area under the programme for Government, and, in the context of the NSMC and supporting its work, it flows down to departmental level. I would not know the precise detail of how different Departments are structured, but we work with every Department and we have someone we can call in every Department to discuss the shared island initiative and how it sits within the broader area of North-South co-operation.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Yes. This might be something we will bring up with the Taoiseach again to see how it all fits together and to formalise it because this is what businesses are asking for now in terms of being able to offer support.

Mr. Eoghan Duffy

From the perspective of business and wider civil society inputs, in terms of processes, these groups are very involved in the national planning framework, the national development plan and the LEEF. Each of those processes has involvement from all the Departments and hears from representatives of businesses, trade unions and civil society organisations. We are involved in those processes as well to put the focus in place to ensure this aspect is prioritised through government in that way, as well as in departmental sections.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Those business representatives were complimentary of the work being done by the Department. I will just pass that message on. I do, however, think these processes need to be formalised to ensure we are ahead of the curve here. I refer to the many things we need to do on Brexit, for example, in respect of goods and services, and opportunities we need to avail of as they arise.

It was stated the shared island unit is mainly concerned with capital projects. We are doing work now on women and the Constitution to try to ensure nobody is left behind in respect of having their say, regardless of what their constitutional preference is, regarding how we shape things in future. There seems to be a real appetite among women's groups and hard to reach groups in respect of wanting to have a say in how we shape the future of the island. Is that something the shared island unit can facilitate or assist with in relation to the practicalities of bringing these voices to the fore as a collective?

Ms Émer Deane

The shared island unit itself is for capital projects. One of the things we fund, however, via the Department of Foreign Affairs and the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, is the civic fund. This works with all sorts of civic society groups, including to do the type of work the Deputy is referring to. A particular focus is to build North-South connections. There may be scope in this regard within this context and a funding round is due to be announced shortly by that Department. This is the space as it stands now. Of course, other funding streams may be relevant. These could include PEACEPLUS or the reconciliation fund.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I am talking about the stage which is almost pre-animation, the very grassroots stage, when, as Ms Deane will know, it can be difficult to access funding. Regarding PEACEPLUS, for example, it is just difficult in terms of the processes involved in a context where an attempt is being made to build capacity in terms of individuals and communities. Did Ms Deane say the civic fund was under the remit of the Department of Foreign Affairs?

Ms Émer Deane

Yes.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

It would be good then to have representatives of the Department of Foreign Affairs come before the committee to allow us to look at the reconciliation fund, the civic fund and the funds that come under their auspices. I recommend the committee take on board this suggestion at some point.

Mention was also made of the local authorities, and I absolutely agree about the potential in this regard. Is that local authority application process closed now? Ms Deane mentioned that 25 proposals have been submitted. Does that shut off entries from any other local authorities that might wish to apply to the scheme?

Ms Émer Deane

I think nearly every local authority has availed of this opportunity, which is good news. This particular work is moving to the next stage now with local authorities having been invited and funded to come forward with proposals for North-South co-operation. In each case, these local authorities are working with a counterpart in the North. No specific new fund has been established in this space. Having said that, though, local authorities do continue to be partners for the fund across all areas of our work. There is, therefore, always space for engagement with local authorities even if the specific scheme has moved to the next stage, which is the selection of proposals.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

There is an onus on local authorities and their members to ensure information concerning this application process for co-operation permeates out and it is not just a matter of the executive of the local authorities pursuing whatever project they might think should be the focus of any such efforts. I say this because, as Ms Deane will know, there are all sorts of activists in different groups in communities who would like to engage with groups in the North. For the first time, we have an opportunity to do this under PEACEPLUS as well, because this encompasses all the local authorities. There are good opportunities in this context.

By the way, the research being done is excellent. I want to see this continuing and exploring different aspects, similar to what has been explored already but moving beyond the current stage because, at the end of the day, we have to present the hard evidence and doing so is a way of taking the emotion out of things. We understand the situation around the congruence of data, etc., which we talk about continuously. In other forums, we are trying to bring about better congruence between the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency, NISRA, and the CSO, etc.

Turning to the dialogues, which are also good and produce really rich information, I ask Ms Deane to talk me through the steps in regard to where this information ends up. There are videos and reports. What ultimately happens with the reports? Where do they go?

Ms Émer Deane

To start at the research aspect, we are always interested in ideas for research where people spot gaps. In fact, we have undertaken 30 pieces of research so far, several of them in conjunction with the ESRI. This year, we are hoping to reflect on what we have done to see what the themes are, what issues are arising and what the headlines are in this regard.

Turning to the dialogues, as I mentioned earlier, especially in the context of the shared island youth forum, the structure there will be to ask the participants to come up with their statement, vision and values around five themes. This material will then be brought to the Government in the autumn. We hope that will help us to see where dialogues might go at the next stage. All the dialogues are online and available for people to review at any point.

The dialogues themselves often inform where research should be conducted. The civic fund also came about through the dialogues. It was recognised that while we can organise occasional dialogues, an awful lot more needs going on out there and this was why the civic fund was established. It is intended to give funding to the National Women's Council of Ireland to set up the North-South Women's Dialogue. The Wheel and NICVA are undertaking their own iCommunity project. The idea is to try to use the dialogue to spawn other dialogues in other places totally independent of the work of the shared island unit. We do, however, always review and examine them in terms of our own prioritisation to try to work out where we will go next with this process. Sometimes, that involves going back to a theme we have used before, because there is more to be said about it or people have asked us to explore a different angle.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

This is really good. The committee may also be able to make use of the work being done there too.

If we take the area of women in the Constitution, which we are doing, if we can have them in that dialogue it can bring the work a bit further too and have it in our Oireachtas reports. We can see how we can work that.

On the ESRI, we have looked a lot at goods for businesses but if it looked at the impact of not having the dual market access for services to the EU and the impact it would have to the all-island economy, that would be excellent.

An Cathaoirleach

I congratulate Senator Blaney on his nomination in the European elections. There are a lot of Donegal natives in Drogheda and some of them are very nice people, although not all of them. I am joking. There is one person in particular and I recall our conversation 20 years ago. However, there are a lot of people there and that is a hint to him if he wants to use it.

Senator Niall Blaney

I thank the Chair. Donegal people have spread their wings throughout Ireland and beyond. I thank Ms Deane and Mr. Duffy for being here today and for their presentation. I am sorry I was not here for all of it. The work they do is vital for the future of this island. They are doing some fantastic work and long may it continue. The recent announcement was very good.

Following on from their discussion with Deputy Conway-Walsh on research, is there any research on the Protestant communities along the Border who are actually sharing the space on the island? They are probably in a different space to those in Northern Ireland. Is there any research about how they fit in on the island and what that is like from their experience?

The recent announcement of €600 million for the A5 was fabulous news but we still have difficulties within Northern Ireland. Is anything happening at Stormont level to try to get to the crux of the problem? That is from the perspective of meeting individuals on the ground who are making the objections to see if there is any way to tease that out how some of those can be addressed with the delivery of the A5. It is really important that it happens now. I was one of the first people to take a deputation to meet the then Taoiseach Bertie Ahern on this. He used that and announced the funding in 2007 for the A5 and the Ulster Canal. I recall at the time one of our main arguments was that the midpoint of the N2-A5, the traffic volume at Omagh was equal to the midway point on the Galway-Dublin motorway. You would find that hard to believe now. It was actually greater than Limerick or Waterford, obviously. We are now falling 20 years further behind. This project is so critical to us, as are the two parts at either end, the N2 to Clontibret and the TEN-T project in Donegal, which is progressing, but they all need to knit together. I am interested in any word the witnesses have around that.

The introduction of an hourly rail service between Belfast and Dublin was mentioned. Again, from my north-western perspective, the area west of the River Bann in Northern Ireland is in most need infrastructurally. That is not to say there is not great need on the east coast to develop as well but we have been completely starved from existing rail, not to mention proposed rail. There are no funds yet. Are there any plans to do anything with the existing rail line from Derry to Belfast? It has so much potential from the fifth largest city to the second largest. We cannot just let it sit there and ignore it. If there are no plans, can we look at doing something about that? It is critical. Because it is so out of date, it is so slow and delivering nowhere near its potential.

Finally, I have had a number of engagements with members of the Orange Order and the Protestant community on the Battle of the Boyne. Is there €10 million for that? Can we get some detail on that? Some have approached me about developing a greenway between Carrickfergus down through the relevant sites from a Protestant-unionist perspective. We do not interact enough North and South, whether it is Protestants coming South or us as southerners moving North. We have not experienced each other or the hinterlands. That would be a vein that the Protestant community would be interested in using if it was in place.

Ms Émer Deane

On the A5, our understanding is that the statutory processes are near a conclusion. The reason the Government announced the funding now is to try to give the impetus and momentum. The Minister for Infrastructure, John O’Dowd, has been clear that he is hoping to be able to take a decision soon and that the project can break ground this year, 2024, whether on a phased basis or whatever way it works. We are fully supportive of that. And as mentioned earlier, it is also about road safety. The number of deaths on the road is quite shocking. The Senator mentioned the linked roads. The Government’s announcement specifically mentioned the N2 Clontibret to the Border and the TEN-T Donegal projects.

On rail, the hourly-frequency service is an identified priority for both administrations. It is one that was agreed should be moved ahead as quickly as possible. That is why it is going ahead now. There is a broader question of the all-island strategic rail review. That will have to go through to the lead Departments on this and they will have to take decisions but we are not at that point yet. There is also significant interest in terms of PEACEPLUS funding to help support aspects of that rail review but it is not over the line at this stage.

On the Battle of the Boyne project, the shared island contribution is €10 million but the understanding is that the project itself will be bigger and that this is a contribution to help support the conservation development plan on which the OPW is leading. It will part-fund it and get funding from other sources. Some 500,000 people have visited the estate on an annual basis and 30,000 to the house so it already gets quite a bit of traffic. The Senator mentioned the Orange Order. It owns a bit of land on the site and it would be involved, as would all communities, in developing this in a very sensitive way. This is a bigger project. We hope we will have full sight of what is being proposed before the end of this year.

I will ask Mr. Duffy to come in on the Protestant communities along the Border but will make a general point on it first, and this also goes back to Deputy Conway-Walsh’s point. In all our dialogues, we try to reach out to underrepresented voices and to make sure those who are taking part represent all communities on this island, including Protestant communities in the South and we will continue to do that. Mr. Duffy might pick up on the specific work.

Mr. Eoghan Duffy

It is obviously a really important experience. Lots of people, as we all know, will not fit into any one label so we are conscious of that as well. The Senator may be aware of something that it was a feature as part of the decade of centenaries to explore the historic experience. It is something that is always in view for the reconciliation fund in the Department of Foreign Affairs. Themes, speakers and concerns from that experience have come through in the dialogue on national identity and experience that the Tánaiste convened in the Abbey Theatre last October. There was a speaker at that from Donegal who spoke very interestingly on that, both from the point of view of working with the Ulster-Scots Agency and also being an Irish language speaker. These kinds of experiences are absolutely the kind of thing that we need to bring through and probably profile more. It is interesting that it is something that has also come through from the youth forum. It is a very different generation and different perspectives but it is still that experience and sense of life. Making these connections, what life is like in the South, what life is like in the North and these things are the kinds of things we are trying to bring through and profile more.

Senator Niall Blaney

I recall being approached by a guy who was a Protestant in Donegal one day who said, "We don't have great rights in the South. They have better rights in the North." I asked him what he meant and he said, "I can't own a British passport".

It is the things you do not think of. That said, I thank our guests.

Senator John McGahon

I thank the Chair. I will focus on a couple of projects that are local to the Chair, Deputy O'Dowd, and me by giving my own thoughts and asking for the witnesses' opinions on them. I will start with the Enterprise train service. The Cathaoirleach will be aware of this himself, coming from Drogheda as he does. First, I am aware of it because I am a regular train user myself. I use it to get here. I use it to go to work and have been using it for the past ten years. I actually introduced a Private Member's Bill this week that proposes to offer refunds when trains are delayed. The reason I am doing so is that the Enterprise service is regularly delayed and is regularly late. People are getting on in my home town of Dundalk or the Cathaoirleach's home town of Drogheda who are paying full whack for a ticket but have no seating. Just this morning for example, Tom Quigley, who is a good friend of mine and who gets the train all the time is waiting for a train that is late again for the third time this week. He is going into work late again for the third time this week and is having to make excuses. That is not good enough for the type of transport that we want, particularly between Dublin and Belfast which in my view, is the economic engine for the island of Ireland. It is where we have a huge number of people in employment and a huge number of educational opportunities. While I acknowledge I am being parochial about it because I am in the middle of it, it is an important part of this island. My question concerns the €12.5 million in funding the shared island initiative is putting in, as well as the work it is doing with the Department of Transport in both the North and the South. Are the witnesses confident that this money is going to be enough at this stage to be able to increase the capacity and the frequency in order that there no longer will be substantial delays or people standing on trains from Newry, Dundalk or Drogheda? I would be interested in that because it is an excellent project. When I see things like this I get excited about them, particularly when this is going to come through by quarter 1 of 2025. In the first instance, I would love to know about the data behind that and how the unit can be certain that this is going to resolve a lot of the issues.

Second, in respect of the Narrow Water Bridge- again the Chair is very aware of this - I believe this will exist because of the work done by the shared island unit, the commitment the Government has put towards it and because Louth County Council kept it alive for a number years after it literally died a death in 2013. It is great to now see everybody from all political parties involved. It reminds me of that saying that success has 1,000 fathers. That is happening with the Narrow Water Bridge, in that everyone is responsible for building it. While it is important to have people from all political persuasions on both sides of the Border supporting it, the shared island unit is responsible for it because being able to put in funding at that level, in what probably is the most significant amount of funding, will make it a success and will make it a reality. I wanted to put that on the record because it really is because of the work you guys have put into it.

I am more concerned about the rail line side of it and that that project may not live up to expectations. I do not have any similar concerns about the Narrow Water Bridge because it has moved to such a point at this stage that it is going ahead and will be really good. My other question relates back to the train services. How can the witnesses be sure that the funding the unit is putting in will be enough and how will it come up with that data as to where that funding comes along?

Ms Émer Deane

I thank the Senator. In terms of what we are doing on the rail project, from a shared island perspective, it is recognising that rail is a core part of the infrastructure on the island that needs such a level of strategic investment. As for the service and increasing the frequency, that is a first step towards that. I do not think it is going to be everything the Enterprise service needs and that is why, as I mentioned, there is a bigger piece of work to be done in respect of the all-island rail review being taken forward by the Department of Transport and increasing the new rolling stock. The hope is that there may be PEACE funding available for that. Specifically, what we expect is that the Department of Transport itself will match the €12.5 million it is receiving from the shared island unit and so in a way, it is really a €25 million project to get to the hourly frequency. The idea is to build that up, starting in the autumn of this year and when it is fully rolled out, as the Senator noted, in the first quarter of next year, that should mean an additional seven trains per day during the core daytime hours. It should make a significant difference. That is our objective and it is also to help build the case and to build the commuter and community base to use the train and to have the confidence to use the train and to look forward to that bigger scale investment the line will need over the coming years.

Senator John McGahon

When Ms Deane mentions that bigger scale and the shared island fund, how does her unit make a differentiation between projects? I ask because on looking at that project, I would say it is going to have to be continually scaled up over the next couple of years. For example, if there are eight services today and another seven are added, technically we are doubling it. But compare that to Liverpool to Manchester or Edinburgh to Glasgow, that is, similar cities, populations and distances with up to 30 or 40 services a day. Will it ever get to the point where the shared island unit would look at a project, decide it had invested enough money in it and that it needed to spread its money around other projects? How does the unit makes a differentiation whereby it thinks enough money has gone towards a project and it cannot commit any more?

Ms Émer Deane

We would go back to this being a matter for the programme for Government or for the national development plan. This is a matter for prioritisation at that level and in terms of the all-island rail review, that is something that is still at an early stage. That is where the shared island unit seeks to implement the priorities of the Government that relate to cross-Border co-operation where we see we can add value. We will continue to watch that space and connect with the Department of Transport here and its equivalent in the North to see, as they progress and outline their priorities, whether there are areas where we could assist.

The Senator mentioned the Narrow Water Bridge and I agree, going back to local authorities, that Louth County Council has been very important in driving that forward. We are hopeful that Louth will bring it through to that final point by awarding a tender in the coming weeks. From a shared island perspective, we will then be assisting them to ensure delivery within the coming years.

Senator John McGahon

Would the Chair like to come in?

An Cathaoirleach

I simply make the point that I support everything the Senator has said. The one point I would like to make is that the problem of trains being late on the Northern line has to do with congestion in the Dublin area. The capacity is not there to take the increased number of trains that everyone is talking about without building new access, namely, a third line into the city. That is the problem and it is an engineering problem. You can have all the trains in the world but if the track cannot take them, that is the problem. If there is a DART ahead, which train has priority? Is it the DART or the Belfast train, as that is the issue? If the DART is ahead, the DART is slower and the express train behind it cannot go. I believe that is the main reason but the principle of funding and support is extremely welcome and very important, including the rolling stock. There is another proposal the witnesses probably know about, namely, a dedicated separate Belfast to Dublin line. It was proposed some time ago and I do not know where that is at. I do not know how practical it is but it has a number of advocates for it. I think the shared island unit is on the right track, certainly ----

Ms Émer Deane

Pun intended.

An Cathaoirleach

----- but Irish Rail has a lot to do. I know it has plans, that is part of the issue but the future is what Ms Deane is saying, namely, greater connectivity. On that point, to go back to the national strategy planning, is the Drogheda, Dundalk and Newry linked cities. I do not know where you are on that. I know it is essentially a local government issue in one sense but how much a part of the unit's active planning is that proposal?

Senator John McGahon

To follow up on that, the Chair is quite right. It is the congestion and it is the priority that is being put over commuters coming from Balbriggan into Dublin that is causing huge problems for people from the part of the world the Chair represents.

I will make one further point that again highlights why the shared island fund is so important. I note that €1.5 million is going towards the completion of the Carlingford to Newry greenway. It is a fantastic project in one of the most scenic parts of this country. However, it started 12 years ago. It has been in the process for 12 years, both coming from Carlingford through Omeath to the Border and coming from Newry through Victoria Lock to the Border. This shows how important the shared island fund is because we must step into all these projects that local authorities have pushed forward. They have been taken as far as possible but this shows that the shared island fund must be continued as best as possible to come in and provide that high-level funding to get these projects finalised and over the line. I dream of an island that is completely interconnected by greenways, particularly along Border areas as it is a great idea for tourism and cross-Border tourism. However, the idea of a greenway taking 12 years to build is just not realistic. It shows once again why the shared island fund is so important for cross-Border projects. In the area that I am from and the area the Chair represents as a TD, there are three such projects; namely, the Carlingford to Newry greenway, the Narrow Water Bridge and the increased railway infrastructure. It is not that I am a believer but rather I am a huge advocate for the shared island fund and the work the witnesses do. It makes a substantial difference in Border regions.

Ms Émer Deane

I thank the Senator. It points to the value of having a ring-fenced fund, which gives flexibility and assurance to everyone that we can deliver on projects and that they have prioritisation. I thank the Senator for his comments.

An Cathaoirleach

Does any member or witness which to say anything on this matter?

Mr. Eoghan Duffy

On the point on the national planning framework and so on, that is a cross-government process. We participate in that process and are involved in working with Departments to co-ordinate their input into the planning framework. As for the planning framework and funding decisions, these are ultimately decisions that are made by the Government. They by and large involve bringing together different funding streams. The delivery of those projects, such as greenway or rail projects, lies with the agencies and Departments.

An Cathaoirleach

While I understand what Mr. Duffy is saying, the issue is around the linear cities and that is a critical part. It was an overview, obviously. In the joined-up thinking between local authorities and Departments in the North and in the South, who has the hands-on role? Can the unit give the committee a briefing and an update on this?

Mr. Eoghan Duffy

The local authorities input into-----

An Cathaoirleach

I understand that it is aspirational but there is huge growth on the Belfast to Dublin corridor. Senator McGahon and I live on that economic corridor. I know there is criticism that there is too much investment but that is now being addressed with the A5 road and so forth. I wish to say that, since the Good Friday Agreement, the witnesses' unit and their Department are making a significant difference. As Senator McGahon outlined, the shared island fund is hugely important. We wish it every success, regardless of what person or party is in government in the future. This is a key project for the whole island and it is working well. I thank the witnesses for their attendance.

The joint committee adjourned at 11:43 a.m. sine die.