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Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Nov 2023

Importance of Airplay in Promoting Irish Music: Music and Entertainment Association of Ireland

We are meeting today with representatives from the Music and Entertainment Association of Ireland, MEAI, to discuss the importance of airplay in promoting Irish music. I welcome the following witnesses from MEAI: Jackie Conboy, co-founder, Aidan Butler, member, and Ms. Rebecca Cappuccini, independent artist and MEAI spokesperson.

The format of the meeting is I will invite our witnesses to deliver an opening statement limited to three minutes, to be followed by questions from members of the committee. As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee may publish opening statements on its webpage. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Before we proceed, I wish to explain some limitations in relation to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to attend where he or she is not adhering to that constitutional requirement.

I propose that we proceed to hear the opening statements from the witnesses, starting with Ms Conboy. They have three minutes overall, whatever way they wish to divide that time up.

Mr. Aidan Butler

My statement is quite long and is in front of the committee already. To save time, a Chathaoirligh, I request that my colleagues give their opening statements in the three minutes, if that is okay?

Yes, perfect. I call Ms Cappuccini.

Ms Rebecca Cappuccini

It is a privilege and pleasure to be invited to speak today. I am an Irish artist. I recently released a track in the Irish music industry and underwent the PR process trying to highlight it on Irish radio. Out of 150 emails I sent, I received three replies and three Irish plays. As an artist, it is so disappointing and difficult. We spend so much love, money and time to create our songs only to be met with a wall of disappointment and no replies.

There should be more focus on homegrown artists on the radio. There is such a variety of artists and so much beautiful talent here in Ireland, I find it hard to understand why we do not feature this magnificence better. I am here today to appeal that we work together and help support homegrown artists better. It seems counterproductive to me that we have grants in place to support the industry but no platform to help propel their art to the masses. Radio is such a vital part of people's connection to music. I would like to use this to the best of its potential to shine a light on Irish artists.

I thank the committee for its time and consideration on this matter.

Mr. Aidan Butler

I thank the committee for this invitation. I will paraphrase some of this because, as I said, once I started to write I forgot to stop. I am an ex-RTÉ Radio 1 senior music producer. I took up the position in 2010. I was very interested in developing a platform for new young Irish musicians, and through work on a playlist and providing the Pat Kenny radio show with music acts, I was able to give a diverse taste of what was happening in the music scene in Ireland. I saw first hand how important this was to a new career. As a national broadcaster, playing live or having their music played on the playlist opened the opportunities for concerts and being picked up by the smaller stations, who would not have had the resources to explore the vast amount music in the country.

At this stage I should give a brief outline as to the way we select music. Since Radio 1 is predominantly a talk show station, we only get between 43 and 45 hours per week which is not a huge amount, but we set out a very open music policy and try to cater for as big a diversity as possible. Included in those hours are programmes dedicated to Irish traditional music, country music, pop and, at times, jazz and classical music.

We changed our policy from a "playlist" to "recommends" for a few reasons. Unlike most other radio stations, Radio 1 does not mandate a strict playlist rotation. Our presenters or producers on other shows have complete control over what music is played on their programme. We also felt that since we were hiring people who we regarded as experts or well versed in music, it would be best to let them decide what to play. Thankfully, they all bought into our ethos of highlighting Irish artists. The weekly recommended list is well received, and well played.

Most other stations have a strictly rotated playlist, usually consisting of three separate lists: a current top 20, a current top 10, and new and old classics. These would be rotated. Presenters have very little choice as to what is played. Since a lot of these stations are now owned by or controlled by companies from the UK or outside of Ireland, Irish music can take a back seat to the current top 20 in the charts.

The positives of radio plays for Irish artists will be very well highlighted by other members of the group: helping to build new fan bases, generating sales, and attracting other media attention. Artists have told me a number of times how important those plays on RTÉ are or how the recognition has helped them to get gigs or plays on international markets as well.

There are problems from the broadcaster’s point of view that need to be addressed. As I said, a lot of smaller stations do not have the resources to oversee the vast amount of music being released every week. The amount of music I was getting in every week, either by email or hard copies, was staggering, and this has only increased since Covid-19. As a music producer, you try to leave your personal likes or dislikes at the gate and pick what you feel best suits the music ethos of your station. It is not an easy task. It is usually down to one, maybe two people on each station to try to sort through the mountain of music. The first casualties in any choice comes down to quality or production values. It is amazing how many badly recorded songs are sent to radio stations. Then comes the targeting by the big corporations of special times of the year, such as Christmas, St. Valentine's Day, Easter, etc. They swamp the scene with big artist acts that are impossible to ignore, so the small independent artists are squeezed out.

From my perspective again we need a much better and more constructive definition as to exactly what defines Irish music and possibly a good national music strategy. Trying to force radio stations into playing a large quota of Irish music just will not work realistically. Stations are commercially driven and will fight or circumvent the mandate. We need to encourage stations not to pay lip service to any quota but be rewarded in some way for going beyond it. We need to encourage and incentivise stations to take up the challenge of playing more Irish music and at the same time encourage Irish musicians to up their standards. This could be done by using the Canadian method but would require a high involvement from Government.

The number of Canadian musicians I was dealing with was amazing. Their recordings and touring were all supported by their Government's cultural department. Thankfully, I see this is starting to happen in Ireland now, to a smaller degree. The radio station, iRadio, which we might talk about later, deserves a special mention for some of what it is doing. We have seen the success that can be there and anything we can do to help encourage and promote these will do nothing but bring prosperity and enhance our cultural legacy.

I thank Mr. Butler. I will now turn to my colleagues, who are all very welcome. I thank them for turning out in such good numbers. I will begin with Senator Warfield. The floor is his and he will have five minutes.

I thank the Chair. I welcome the witnesses. Would resourcing for radio stations be an issue if legislation were brought in or the regulatory environment were changed so that radio stations were required to play Irish music, if we defined that properly?

Mr. Aidan Butler

I do not think so.

To go through the catalogue that is released every week.

Mr. Aidan Butler

In smaller stations there may be one or two producers, or a producer and a researcher, looking after three, four or five programmes in the day or whatever, so that is a problem all right. With the amount of music that comes in, stations would have to look at how they would resource, both financially and staff-wise, the looking after of music coming in on its own.

I will ask Mr. Conboy or Ms Cappuccini what are their preferences for a legislative or regulatory solution? Has anything changed in the transition from the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, to the media commission?

Mr. Jackie Conboy

I spoke to people from Highland Radio recently which now employs two people who look after the material that is coming in because it is getting so much material. Highland Radio has two people now who sift through all that and see what it can play and what it cannot play.

I see Coimisiún na Meán as being a positive step and we have been speaking to it. I can see going forward that it is very much looking at the amount of Irish artists. When I say Irish artists, I want to be clear that it is across the board genre-wise, from trad, to country, to rock or whatever. When I say "Irish", the commission is very much looking at that and, in the licensing the stations are sending in, what quota they will play. It was a surprise for me. I thought there was a 30% quota across the board, but there is not. It is up to the station to say what it will do. It could be anything from a minimum of 20% upwards.

Is Mr. Conboy worried about the simulcasting, if that is what it is called, of shows from Britain? There was a piece in The Irish Times about it on the back of the Ryan Tubridy issue. Is it called a simulcast?

Mr. Jackie Conboy

It is called syndicated.

Syndicated, sorry. Would Mr. Conboy be worried about that in respect of music?

Mr. Jackie Conboy

Aidan will probably want to say something about that as well. I do not know if this is off what the Senator said but there seems to be a thing where they are looking at what is being played in the UK for a lot of their playlists. That has to change, to a degree, because our market is different. What happens in Dublin city and what happens outside the M50 are two different things. The music that is happening down around me is completely different.

I always enjoyed driving back late at night from a show at the Gleneagle Hotel in Killarney or wherever and listening to all the radio stations on the way back. It is a different world.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

It is a different world. It is interesting because you might say there is no one doing jazz and so on but there is a bubble of people living from playing jazz and writing jazz material. If you told someone in Dublin they could go in and put the likes of Mike Denver or Derek Ryan into a venue and get 600 or 700 people, they would say you were mad, but that is the case.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their presentation and their continued engagement with the committee. Jackie’s last point was on country music and people in Dublin saying it would not happen and it would be mad, but both Deputy Munster and I know "The Greenscene" on LMFM is one of the most listened-to shows in radio in our area, so we get what the witnesses are saying.

The witnesses spoke about a national music strategy. We cannot have a scenario of compellability because the stations are commercial entities trying to survive. We had the independent radio stations in before the committee talking about that very issue, the balance between youth content and playlists and all of that. The witnesses spoke of a non-binding strategy where stations would be rewarded. Have they fleshed out how that would work? Are there examples, without a national strategy in place, of where it is working well and stations are exceeding what the witnesses would like to see happen?

Mr. Jackie Conboy

It was something that came up where we were looking at how we develop this without getting into legislation. The last thing we want to do is force stations down a certain route, so we were looking for a way to use a carrot rather than a stick. When I speak of rewarding stations, it might be financially or whatever. IMRO already does the national radio awards-----

Absolutely. I was lucky enough to be there this year.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

IMRO does an amazing job of looking at stations and seeing what they are doing in relation to the Irish music scene in general. Even though it is a collection agency, it still tries to highlight Irish artists.

I was at the IMRO awards during the summer and spoke to people from many of the stations afterwards on the challenges they face. Incidentally, they are before the committee at 2 p.m. this day next week giving a presentation on those issues. For them to meet that commercial reality and fulfil what the witnesses are setting out today, what has been the engagement through, say, the independent radio association of Ireland on their ability to do what the witnesses want them to do? What feedback are the witnesses getting from radio stations?

Mr. Jackie Conboy

It is quite different. Over the past three weeks, I spoke across the board to various local radio stations because I am very familiar with some of the DJs and stuff like that. I was going through the JNLR figures. Midwest Radio, for example, is always high up the list, as are Highland Radio, Waterford and Shannonside. The one thing that comes back the whole time to me is they give the people what they want. They play what people request. It seems to be lost on some stations. Some stations are trying to look like Today FM or something else but for the stations that look after the county or whatever, the listeners remain loyal to the stations.

Mr. Conboy mentioned three or four stations. Is it that they know the demographics and where Irish music is strong? Where are the witnesses having difficulty with other stations? Is there an east coast-west coast divide? What would be their take on that?

Mr. Aidan Butler

It is a big divide. I was telling Jackie before coming in that I remember meeting Charley Pride when he came over to play the concert hall. He said he could play four venues in Galway, Limerick, Cork or whatever and fill them out three nights in a row but could not even get himself arrested in Dublin. When I went to the concert hall that night, it was full downstairs and there was a smattering upstairs. Dublin-based radio stations like FM104 and even RTÉ have to do it for commercial reasons. They have 1.5 million listeners in one area. Do they put on something where they know the first thing people will do is hit the button? I watch my sons do it in the car, screaming at them. Five seconds of a song and they are pressing buttons like nobody’s business.

On a national basis, do the witnesses think those stations are missing a trick? Do they believe we are all the same and all want to listen to one thing but are missing a trick by not playing a genre that I do not need to tell the witnesses is extremely popular throughout the country?

Mr. Aidan Butler

It is quite true. You are trying to balance. I remember trying to do it. We did a series with Paschal Mooney and a concert series with Irish country music and all sorts of things. You are always as a national organisation trying to cater for everybody. I spent ten years trying to do it, if not more, sometimes pulling my hair out. At the same time, you are trying to give new artists a platform.

We were talking about what is being done and a great example is iRadio. We got a lovely email from that station saying that four to six new Irish tracks are added to its playlists, which is rotated the same way as its top 20. These tracks are highlighted by presenters telling the audience about the acts and building them up. They then interview two or three acts per week on their breakfast shows. On Sunday evening, the station has a dedicated iLove Irish show, which is a great idea. Now it is expanding that into gigs and bringing these artists to them.

That sort of thing is what I love. We did bits and pieces in RTÉ. 2FM is very good at doing it as well. It is there. It is all bubbling around. It is about getting the encouragement, maybe financial, from Culture Ireland or whatever. When RAAP came in, we did a bursary that ran for three years. I had four categories: pop, classical, jazz and traditional. People sent in tapes and I had four committees picking the best from each one.

We held finals and each artist was then awarded a bursary of up to €5,000 to help them to record. That is the sort of thing-----

Finally, should the strategy and the bursary come from the Department or the sector?

Mr. Aidan Butler

It will have to be Department driven.

We have received apologies from Senator Hoey. The floor is Deputy Cannon's.

I thank the members of the MEAI, including Mr. Butler, for joining us today. The MEAI has become an extraordinarily effective and powerful voice for a sector, the Irish music industry, that was pretty much voiceless. It emerged from the ashes of the pandemic and was crucial in seeking support from the Government for the sector throughout the pandemic. Thankfully, many artists emerged relatively unscathed as a result of the MEAI's good work. I thank its members for their commitment.

Mr. Butler mentioned a strategy, as did Senator Cassells. I recall Willie Penrose trying to make the case many years ago for some kind of legal imposition on all broadcasters to broadcast a certain percentage of Irish music. The Irish music industry as a whole, including the Irish Music Rights Organisation, IMRO, got behind it at the time, but it did not go anywhere because many issues arose about how to define Irish music and whether it was appropriate to dictate to what are mainly commercial entities as to what they can and cannot play. That is not the direction we need to head in, but we need to explore to a great extent the possibility of developing a national music strategy.

If we consider Ireland internationally and how people abroad perceive us, we note we are perceived to be exceptionally creative and culturally rich. That has arisen because of people such as U2, The Cranberries, Westlife and all the artists who have emerged from this island and gone on to become global powerhouses in the music industry. People might ask why Ireland of all places needs a national music strategy. Right now, the next U2 or The Cranberries could be sitting in someone's bedroom and they are finding it immensely difficult to record, because it is an expensive process; to get airplay; and to get any kind of traction in the world of music. It would be a horrendous shame if all that talent has the potential to emerge and become a global phenomenon and we do not have the support mechanisms in place to allow it to happen.

Let us look at one example. Many countries are now developing national music strategies, but Korea did so in 1997. The economy crashed in Korea. They looked at one another and asked where their strengths were. One they identified immediately after the crash was their culture, including the music industry and its potential to form a huge part of its economy in the future. Twenty years later, we see the phenomenon that is K-pop. Someone sent me a YouTube video recently of Mr. Gangnam, who Senator Warfield might be familiar with. I do not know the guy's name. He fills massive stadiums all over the world. A whole other genre emerged from a country that in the past was never considered to be a cultural or musical powerhouse: Korea, of all places. It was done because of an incredibly focused, well co-ordinated and all-encompassing national music strategy that every aspect of the government bought into developing. Now we see places such as Thailand, Zimbabwe, China and Mexico looking at the example Korea set in supporting its artists and the pride that has emanated from that.

If we are seeking to develop that ecosystem in Ireland so that perhaps in ten years' time something extraordinary could emerge from it, who should be part of it? Who has a critical role to play in the development of a national strategy? I would argue that the Department we discuss every week, the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, has a huge role to play, as does the Arts Council, the coimisiún, RTÉ and all those who have expertise in the world of music and music production and dissemination. I would be interested to hear MEAI's perspective on who should be involved and how we should go about doing it.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

Actually-----

Maybe you have already answered the question, sorry.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

Yes. The Deputy has proposed a serious solution. Focus is needed and we need a team to be set up by the Minister bringing all the stakeholders together, such as IMRO, Recorded Artists Actors Performers, RAAP, Coimisiún na Meán, the Independent Broadcasters of Ireland, IBI, us and whoever else to try to come up with a plan. Before this meeting, I was looking back over committee meetings from the nineties. Many people have come here with the same problems about airplay. The path is worn. Do I want to be coming back in ten years - if I am still here - or will someone else be coming back? There has to be a solution to this, something that would bring a focus. It is not only about Dublin; it is has to be national, for the island.

Ms Rebecca Cappuccini

It has improved so much. K-pop is a beautiful, strong example. It should be a symbiotic relationship. We have such strong artists in this country, we do not need to look outside it. Younger people all listen to playlists they make for one another. Their interest in radio is gone.

This young person does as well.

Ms Rebecca Cappuccini

I can tell.

Everyone is listening to playlists now because radio is giving them the same stuff all the time. There is clearly a disconnect between what radio believes people want and what people are actually seeking. That would reinvigorate night life and bring in streams to Irish artists which would be beneficial to everyone as it would help people who are already being invested in. No one can fail by coming together and finding a lateral solution.

Ultimately, rather than seeking to impose our musical preferences on broadcasters, which I am somewhat uncomfortable with, why not develop the ecosystem, supported by the State to the greatest possible extent, from where the artists emerge of their own accord when they are given the necessary supports? Rather than banging their heads off the wall after two or three years of creating good music and material, they should feel that they are plugging into something that is State-funded and State-supported, which will give them the chance to succeed and become cultural and musical ambassadors for our country. Let us go about it the other way. I suggest we talk to the Minister, our colleagues, the coimisiún, IMRO which has huge expertise in this area and people like Mr. Butler who have spent a lifetime in the industry. We need to ask how we can make this happen. We also should not try to reinvent the wheel. We should look at what was done in Korea, how it was structured and what is being done elsewhere. That is the direction this conversation needs to go in the coming weeks and months.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

I have spoken to artists who have released successful albums and singles over the years. Some of them have now given up. They say there is no point. One man who had released seven singles got two or three airplays in a year a half. I listened to the tracks and I could not believe it. They are incredible tracks. That is one person. A band that has released five singles and is a well-known act decided not to work this year, because it would not be able to sell tickets due to a lack of airplay. It is now looking at next year. I spoke to some amazing studios around the country. They find that artists who used to routinely record are now saying there is no point. It is breaking down.

We will come back to that another day as some of my colleagues are under time pressure.

I call Deputy McGrath.

I welcome our guests and thank them for all the work they have done, especially during and since Covid, in trying to support artists. The industry stopped during Covid. It did get a great deal of funding, but, unfortunately, that did not filter down to the artists in many cases.

Senator Warfield stated that what we were talking about was a different Ireland than the one found in Dublin. Our area of Tipperary has a rich cultural heritage. Mr. Seán Ó Sé comes up from Deputy Griffin’s area to sing at Brú Ború Heritage Centre. We have a wonderful concertina player, Mr. Bobby Gardiner. We know them all. Ms Mary Kelly, a harpist, plays here regularly for us. This music needs to be supported. Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann does great work. We have a plethora of country music artists, for example, Ms Louise Morrissey, Ms Trudi Lalor, Mr. Fran Curry and Ms Muriel O’Connor. You name it. There was also the late, great Mr. Dom O’Driscoll from Bantry. He had many wonderful records. Country musicians also need to be supported. They do not want much support, only fair play. Fair play is fine play with me, but they are not getting fair play. I do not know why or where the blockage is. Is it in the Department? Deputy Cannon stated that he did not want to take the stick approach. We do not. Mr. Willie Penrose made an effort, on which I supported him gallantly, but it did not happen. Why is Irish country music not getting airtime? What can musicians do to get airtime?

We have two great local stations, one of which is Tipp FM. Mr. Curry is its manager and has a wonderful programme himself. It plays many artists, for example, Mr. Tony Brooke. Tipp Mid West Radio is forever playing these artists. The stations are playing them because they love them. The stations go way down to County Waterford for them, for example, Mr. Paddy O’Brien in Cappoquin over the hill.

These are wonderful people. Why are they not getting support? Why is it taking so long to solve these issues? Jackie spoke about being back here in ten years’ time. He probably will be. There needs to be a seismic shift in support of these people. Someone might say I am name dropping, but we have the likes of Mr. Paul Lafford and the wonderful Rebel Hearts in Clonoulty in Tipperary. They all cater for different age groups and people. They pack out the halls and venues where they play. They play the music the people love. There are a few dancers as well. We cannot forget the Irish dancers or all the other dancers.

My question might be repetitive, but what do the witnesses believe we can do immediately?

Mr. Jackie Conboy

We can look at the Irish country scene as a really good example. Some of this could be brought into other genres as well. In fairness, local radio has promoted many of the artists in question, for example, Nathan Carter, Mike Denver, Derek Ryan and Johnny Brady. There is a whole list of these people who cut their teeth and made their careers on local radio stations. Unfortunately, that does not transfer to the national stations. On the other side of the equation, some local stations do not play hip-hip or dance artists, and those artists then find it difficult to get their music played on 2FM. The country artists are saying they cannot get played on national radio and the other artists are saying they cannot get played on local or national radio. Look at the way local radio brought country music on in Ireland. It was always there. From the sixties on, there were the likes of Brendan Bowyer, the showbands and country artists like Larry Cunningham and Big Tom. They were getting played on national radio.

Mr. Aidan Butler

Yes. It comes down to the definition of “pop music”. In the sixties, “pop music” meant that, if you lasted six months, you were doing well. Radio stations will say that tastes move on. They are constantly looking for the next new Beatles, U2 or whoever, especially music stations. Unfortunately, many of these stations say that they want their age demographics to only go as high as 35-year-olds, with a maximum of 40. They are looking for a younger generation and the producers and others working for them are of that younger generation. It is unfortunate, but there is that narrow viewpoint. This is about trying to encourage them to broaden their horizons. I used to tell presenters and whoever to go to concerts and try to find new music. I was open to new music coming in. The situation is what it is. All we can do is encourage people.

Have the witnesses a plan or roadmap?

Mr. Jackie Conboy

We are trying to list a couple of ideas. If it was the case that IMRO, RAAP and the other stakeholders came up with a good national plan, we would have certain ideas for it. The definition of what is Irish is at the top of our list. If Rihanna came over and recorded in Dublin, that would be regarded as Irish. If a station has a quota of 20% Irish music, you would say that was one track in every five, but that is not really what happens, as much of the Irish music that is played on radio is played after 7 p.m. I mentioned Mike Denver. He often stated that, if we could get daytime radio and night-time television, this would be an amazing industry.

I apologise, but we will have to leave it at that. I thank Deputy McGrath for his contribution. I call Deputy Munster.

The witnesses are welcome. Are the MEAI and IMRO on the same page where this topic is concerned? Are there differences of opinion? What is the difference between the MEAI’s role and IMRO’s role in representing artists?

Mr. Aidan Butler

IMRO cannot get too involved because it has to look after the international artists as well. It is basically a royalty collection agency. However, as with the radio awards, it does many good things for Irish musicians and artists. We are definitely on the same page.

But in terms of representing musicians-----

Mrs. Jackie Conboy

IMRO’s role is not to represent musicians.

Just to collect royalties.

Mrs. Jackie Conboy

When Covid started, I remember ringing IMRO and asking why it was not doing something for the artists who were finding the situation difficult due to a lack of funding and so forth. IMRO told me that, although we could get involved, it could not because its remit did not allow it to do so.

I listened to the comments on the correspondence we received from Coimisiún na Meán in September regarding quotas. The commission referred to a minimum of 20% to 30%. From listening to the witnesses, though, they do not seem to be in favour of quotas as a means to an end. I believe they said that quotas would be forcing rather than encouraging. If not quotas, then what? Rewarding and encouraging radio stations was mentioned. It could be said the encouraging part has not worked. Otherwise, the witnesses would not be sitting before us.

Mr. Conboy spoke about rewarding but he did not outline what exactly he means by rewarding if quotas are not the be all and end all of it.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

It is up to the local stations when they go to apply for a licence to outline what quotas they will do. Many of those stations will go to 30%. They say it is a quota, but in fairness many stations actually go beyond it. The other issue is that those stations are only sampled once a week or whatever.

Mr. Aidan Butler

As part of their application for a licence, they will specify that they will look at their area. They will specify the amount of local current affairs, the amount of music and the amount of Irish they will do.

Mr. Aidan Butler

We would be delighted if every station really bought into the 20% or up to 25%. It is not beyond the bounds of any radio station to play one in five or two in five.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

During the day.

Is there data on the percentages the bigger stations play over a year - those that might not make the 20%?

Mr. Jackie Conboy

Coimisiún na Meán or possibly IMRO would have that data because they would have to have the playlists of what stations are playing. Between the two, the data would be there, but we do not-----

Does that mean that some stations do not even play the 20%?

Mr. Aidan Butler

During the day, I would question it. Overall, I would question it.

Irrespective of whether it is day or night, some do not reach the 20%.

Mr. Aidan Butler

The playlists for many of the larger stations are computer driven. It is literally churned out as per a formula. The presenters are only allowed to select X amount.

Has the Music & Entertainment Association of Ireland raised with Coimisiún na Meán the fear that some stations are not even playing the minimum 20% and others that are playing the minimum 20% are playing it in the evenings or at night when the listenership is less?

Mr. Jackie Conboy

They do watch that, in fairness. Compliance letters are sent out if they are not compliant.

I know that but we have representatives of the MEAI before us today. What have they done to flag this to the Minister, the Department or Coimisiún na Meán? It is clearly an issue.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

We have not gone to the Department or to Coimisiún na Meán with it yet. As an organisation, we are looking at other issues. The Deputy has before her our pre-budget submission. We have other issues going on as well. The airplay issue has been on the table since I was a child. We can go to Coimisiún na Meán about this and in the next while we will probably seek a meeting to discuss these issues.

The witnesses should prioritise that. As this issue has been going on for years, if they want a listening ear, want it to be addressed and are not entirely satisfied with the response from Coimisiún na Meán which we received in September, they should request a meeting and flag it up.

The representatives of the MEAI talked about a national plan involving themselves, IMRO and others. Have they made any request for that at departmental or ministerial level to bring the bodies together to try to get it bedded down and if so, when?

Mr. Jackie Conboy

A year and a half ago, we met with the BAI, IBI, IMRO and RAP. RTÉ would not come to the table with us at the time. We discussed everything we are talking about here. We found that there was common ground. Everyone there wanted to try to do something positive to increase airplay and to go forward with this. The stations brought up certain things. Stations find it very hard to deal with the amount of stuff coming into them. Many artists do not know how to send material in. Stations could receive a CD with no name on it documenting the writer. The station would then have to try to ring up someone and find out whose track it is. They were giving us the other side of the problem.

The witnesses should sit down with Coimisiún na Meán - it was the BAI but is now all encompassed - and set priorities to overcome those problems because it is now up and running. Coimisiún na Meán is the new BAI with additional powers. To get this sorted once and for all and to iron out those problems and have some sort of national plan put in place, the witnesses' next port of call should be to write to Coimisiún na Meán and request that to be set up. All the other problems that have arisen in the last year need to be ironed out but until a national plan is agreed surely pulling everybody and everything together would be a starting point.

The Deputy needs to conclude.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

Everything the Deputy is saying is 100% correct. I hope that when other stakeholders appear before the committee, the likes of Coimisiún na Meán, it is something that can be put to them as well.

We can certainly put that to them but it needs to come from the MEAI. We could put it to them but Coimisiún na Meán could say it has not received anything and is not aware of anything. It needs to come from the ground up into Coimisiún na Meán to get the ball rolling and try to sort things out rather than letting them continue for years to come.

I thank the witnesses for coming here today. I was struck by the response to one of Deputy Munster's questions that RTÉ would not come to the table when the initiative was being launched. Did RTÉ give a reason for not getting involved? I find it very disappointing that the national broadcaster would not see the importance of that.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

It was busy and was dealing with a lot of other stuff. The timeframe did not suit it.

When was this precisely?

Mr. Jackie Conboy

It was a year or a year and a half ago. I would have to go back and look at it.

It has much more on its plate at the moment. As a largely State-funded organisation with a remit very much based on cultural content and promoting all things Irish, it is a pity and it is something that RTÉ should revisit. How does the national broadcaster rank among radio stations in terms of airplay? Would it be somewhere in the middle?

Mr. Aidan Butler

No, we would be up at the top level. Just looking across at the diversity of Irish music with Irish traditional music, folk music, pop music, between RTÉ Radio 1 and 2FM, we would be one of the top if not the top one.

That is encouraging at least. That is positive. This brings me on to the next matter I want to speak about, which is the sound and vision scheme. Most recently I saw there was funding for the production of programming relating to environmental issues and climate change. Is it time that we go to a pay-per-play scenario whereby sound and vision scheme funding would be based on playing Irish music at different rates for day and night? There could be a higher rate during the day to encourage it. Is this something that could be considered as a funding carrot for radio stations?

Mr. Jackie Conboy

I am always afraid of pay per play. We saw the rows that happened with regard to the GAA and pay to view. RTÉ is getting rid of three or four online stations.

Yes, including 2XM and Pulse.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

It is keeping RTÉ Gold as far as I know.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

There is a serious opportunity for RTÉ to look at this and play Irish artists online to try to generate something and increase airplay and royalties.

Does Mr. Conboy think it would be an idea that funding would go to the radio stations per track to encourage them to play more Irish tracks?

Mr. Jackie Conboy

Once it is not the listener who has to pay to listen.

Oh God no, that is not what I am suggesting.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

Okay.

I might not be standing again in the next election but I would not go that far. I apologise. I did not make myself clear.

Mr. Aidan Butler

That would be a complete reversal because radio stations pay IMRO to play music.

What I mean is that effectively the State would be involved through subsidising, if we want to use that word. I do not like to use the word "subsidising" because we are encouraging and fostering art. Radio stations that are bold enough to say they will play 20% or more than 20% would be rewarded. The more Irish music they play the more they would get from central funding. Have the witnesses looked at how this model could work and what the figures would look like? Is it something that is worth exploring to bring to the Department?

Mr. Jackie Conboy

It would be worth examining. I go back to Deputy Cannon's idea of a national strategy whereby all of these things could be brought to the table in front of everyone. There is no point in doing this without the likes of IMRO or An Coimisiún na Meán being present to go through the pitfalls or the issues. It is a great idea.

Mr. Aidan Butler

There has been a path worn to here for many years but different factions have come at different times. For a national music strategy lets get us all around a table to bang heads and work together. We would be pushing an open door with radio stations. We all want to do as much as we can. There are limits but we all need to sit down and talk.

I was listening to Deputy Cannon's contribution from my office. The Korean model-----

Mr. Jackie Conboy

And the Canadian.

The suggestion of a national strategy is a no-brainer. It really is the way to go. It is a really good suggestion. I am sure that any effort made in moving along these lines would have the full support of the committee. It would be important.

I want to ask Ms Cappuccini about security for live performers. I am moving slightly off topic. I see that the issue particularly came to the fore in July and August. Has this situation improved any bit? Unfortunately live performers felt they needed to speak out over the summer. Is there still a real concern for live performers, particularly in Dublin and particularly in the city centre?

Ms Rebecca Cappuccini

It is crazy that Deputy Griffin should ask this because a few people have stopped me in my home town of Waterford about this very issue because things are changing everywhere. The Garda presence in Waterford has become a lot stronger. I have heard that performers still have worries about live performances in the Dublin area. It seems to be an ongoing issue.

According to the reports I read prior to this meeting much of this was about coming and going to venues rather than being in the venues themselves. It is on the street when walking with a guitar.

Ms Rebecca Cappuccini

Correct. The issues were affecting gig goers, whereby people were scared to go out after dark after a certain hour. They were also affecting buskers who have licences to perform outside and affecting people going into venues with their own very expensive equipment. The worries were about equipment being stolen, about hi-jinks, either before or after a gig, making gig goers nervous and about buskers not wanting to perform because they are scared after a certain time.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

There is no problem in the venues because they are so well run. Getting to the venue and trying to get home safely is a problem, especially around the Temple Bar area. We were getting calls from people who play there regularly who were having issues with gangs of people hanging around.

That is a shame. Perhaps the committee could write to the Minister for Justice to highlight that this has been flagged and it is an issue that needs to be followed up. I have been walking around Dublin for the past 13 years. I certainly feel less safe now, at night time in particular, than I did back in 2011 or 2012. Sometimes it is a person's own perception and a vibe but it does not feel as safe as it used to.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

No, and as well as this there is an issue that we brought to the Lord Mayor of Dublin a while ago. People no longer get on buses or the Luas with an acoustic guitar. They get a taxi. They find it unsafe on a bus or a train.

Yes, that is a shame. That is really not good enough.

Following this suggestion I seek the agreement of the committee that we write to the Minister for Justice. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I am very sorry to hear Ms Cappuccini's situation. Given the amount of work and time that must go into creating art and for it not to be appreciated or to be given the level of recognition it deserves must be soul destroying. I hope Ms Cappuccini keeps at it. I was doing a small bit of research before the meeting. I have not listened to "A Bun Dance" yet but this afternoon when I go back to my office to follow up on correspondence it will be playing in the background. I am sure there are many artists who will watch this at some stage, if not live. We hear some amazing stories of musicians who thought about giving up at some stage but did not do so. We hope that people stick with it. What a dull world it would be without music and without art. It is incumbent on all of us to support emerging artists in particular.

Mr. Aidan Butler

If I may say, it is also important to support people who do not make it. There are artists who, for one reason or another, just do not have the X factor. Many of them cannot think of anything else to do. It is all they want to do and suddenly people like me tell them they are just not good enough. It breaks my heart but often it has to be said. They need back up then so that if they want to stay in the industry perhaps they could look at something else, such as getting into production. We need to bolster and support all of those who will make it and those who will not make it.

I will never forget that Decca Records told the Beatles that guitar music was going out.

Mr. Aidan Butler

That is exactly it.

Ms Rebecca Cappuccini

I came here to speak as an artist because it is my newest hat in the industry. I have been working in the music industry for almost two decades. I have done everything from being a manager, a fixer, a venue manager and an artist liaison. I have been a tour manager.

Many incredible adventures have come my way but Mr. Conboy asked me to come here today to speak specifically as an artist rather than all those other things. I am not just coming here as a person who did not make it with her first track three months ago but as someone who has seen many people just like me have issues making it.

Have the witnesses come across artists who have benefited from the pilot Government support scheme?

Mr. Jackie Conboy

It is funny; I was listening to "Newstalk Breakfast" this morning and a guy was saying that there were 2,000 musicians involved. Actually, there were not. It was around 500. I know two people who got support from the scheme. I know an awful lot of people around the country and only two came to me saying they got support. Other people are slightly afraid to tell other people they got it.

Is there a stigma attached to having that subsidy? Is that it?

Mr. Aidan Butler

It can also be that they got it when somebody who is equally as good did not.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

It is an amazing scheme. We had certain issues with it, which we made known to the Department at the time. Three years is a long time and it will be interesting to see exactly where it is going. The two people I know are now finding it a lot easier to deal with gigging and so on. They are recording and do not need to gig or go out to try to make money as much. They are using the support very positively.

It is a very positive departure. The sentiment behind it is absolutely 100% correct. If there are tweaks or changes to be made, any feedback would be appreciated. It is a really progressive thing.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

The main thing we had an issue with related to disabilities. There are many artists with disabilities and, if they got into the scheme, they lost their disability payments.

Yes, it is one or the other.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

That is totally unfair. We brought that issue to the Ministers, Deputy Humphreys and Deputy Martin, but we could not get it sorted. People with disabilities should have been able to get this support without losing their disability payments.

Perhaps we could write to both Ministers with a view to having that particular issue re-examined. It could easily be resolved in a social welfare Bill. I imagine that, from a monetary point of view, we would be talking about a really small part of the overall budget.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

There were people with disabilities who did not submit an application for the scheme.

They were precluded from doing so because they would have been financially worse off if they had been accepted.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

Exactly. They would have been worse off. We could not understand how the Ministers did not see that.

The clerk to the committee, Laura Pathe, informs me that we have raised the issue of disability payments being disallowed and the challenges this raises with the Minister. Did Mr. Conboy say that person on Newstalk said there were 500 or 2,000 on the scheme?

Mr. Jackie Conboy

The scheme was for 2,000 people but artists like painters, sculptors and architects could also apply. Musicians are also artists.

Is there a discrepancy in the number? I may have picked that up wrong.

Mr. Aidan Butler

Mr. Conboy was saying the person on Newstalk thought it was 2,000 musicians.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

On Newstalk, he said it was 2,000 musicians.

It is important to stress that, as Mr. Conboy said, it is a pilot. It is a really important experiment in determining how best we can extend this to well beyond 2,000 people.

Most pilots start out teasing out any difficulties or challenges that arise so that they can be ironed out before the scheme is rolled out nationally.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

Again on the disability issue, we put forward a proposal for a pilot in respect of people with disabilities for those three years, with such people being able to hold their disability payments in addition to their basic income payments.

We have come to the end of the round. Does anybody have any final questions before I wrap up?

I thank the witnesses again for being here. It is really important to hear directly from people with a great deal of knowledge and experience from working in the industry for a very long time. It is really helpful to us and informs our opinions and ambitions as to how best to do this. I do not know if I can speak for all of us but I believe there is a certain consensus emerging around a national music strategy. That has to be a key part of the work.

If my colleagues agree, we will share the transcripts from today, which will include all of the ideas and suggestions the witnesses have shared about that national strategy, with the Department, IBI, Coimisiún na Meán, IMRO, RAAP and RTÉ and seek responses, thoughts and views on the matter so that we can move it on and start to action some of those ideas.

That would be great.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

We have spent all our time here talking about radio. With regard to TV, I remember being on "The Beatbox" with a band. There was "The Beatbox", "No Disco", "Live at 3" and all of these music programmes featured Irish artists. All of that is now gone. It is not just-----

It is being done in a different way.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

Something needs to be brought back. RTÉ could do this.

Of course it could.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

It definitely could.

Are there any other suggestions or ideas? It would be a really good starting point to get those organisations' feedback on the witnesses' suggestions. We will seek that feedback after sharing the transcripts of today's meeting with those organisations, including RTÉ. That concludes our business for today. I thank Ms Cappuccini, Mr. Conboy and Mr. Butler for sharing their thoughts and views with us. I hope Mr. Conboy will not be back here in ten years' time, unless he is here to improve on things. We will have a strategy that will be rolled out.

Mr. Aidan Butler

The two of us will be on Zimmer frames.

Mr. Jackie Conboy

I hope I will be sitting here in January or February, with more chairs having been brought in for all of the different stakeholders.

Absolutely. My colleagues on this hard-working committee are not shy about holding meetings or debating issues. It is a good place to do that. I thank the witnesses for their time in coming in to us. I will now ask them to leave because we have some private business to attend to. I ask colleagues to wait. I propose we have a brief suspension to allow the witnesses to withdraw and we will then resume in private session.

The joint committee went into private session at 2.48 p.m. and adjourned at 3.19 p.m. sine die.
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