Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 14 Feb 2024

Transparency of RTÉ Expenditure of Public Funds and Governance Issues: Discussion (Resumed)

An Cathaoirleach

We have received apologies from Deputy Cannon who cannot be with us. Senator Marie Sherlock is attending in substitution for Senator Annie Hoey and we also welcome Deputy Thomas Gould who replaces Deputy Chris Andrews. They are all very welcome. The committee is meeting today with a number of RTÉ executives and its board to resume its discussion of the transparency of RTÉ’s expenditure of public funds and governance issues following the statements issued by the RTÉ board on 22 June 2023. The committee intends to resume its examination of relevant matters, including matters considered at its meetings of 28 June, 5 July, 11 July and 13 September 2023, and following the third Grant Thornton report on Toy Show The Musical, the McCann FitzGerald report, including voluntary exit packages, and, of course, the future funding challenges facing RTÉ.

At the outset, I wish to explain some limitations on parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected by absolute privilege pursuant to the Constitution and statute in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. However, a number of today's witnesses who are giving evidence remotely and from a place outside the parliamentary precincts, as such, may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness physically present does. Such witnesses may think it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter. Persons giving evidence from other jurisdictions should be mindful of their domestic law and how it may apply to the evidence they give.

Witnesses are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in regard to an identifiable person or entity, witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make her or him identifiable. I also remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House to participate in public meetings. I cannot permit a member to attend where he or she is not adhering to that constitutional requirement. Where members are attending remotely, I ask that they confirm they are attending from within Leinster House before making a contribution via Microsoft Teams, though I do not think that affects any of my colleagues today. Any member who attempts to attend from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.

I emphasise to members and witnesses alike that it is imperative that today's meeting is conducted in a fair and respectful manner at all times. It is important, in the interest of natural justice, that members and witnesses alike act responsibly regarding utterances concerning those present today and those who are not present. I will intervene in any exchanges where I deem this not to be the case.

I now move to the agenda of today's meeting which is about the transparency of RTÉ's expenditure of public funds, governance issues, and the future funding challenges facing the organisation.

I welcome the representatives of RTÉ: Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh, chair of the board; Mr. Kevin Bakhurst, director general; Ms Aideen Howard, board member; Ms Anne O'Leary, board member and chair of the audit and risk committee; Mr. Daire Hickey, board member; Mr. David Harvey, board member; Dr. P.J. Mathews, board member; Ms Susan Ahern, board member; Ms Eimear Cusack, director of human resources; and Mr. Adrian Lynch, director of audiences, channels and marketing. I also welcome Jonathan Ruane, board member, who is joining us via Microsoft Teams.

It should be noted that the following persons were also invited but, regrettably, are not in a position to attend today. They are: Ms Dee Forbes, former director general of RTÉ; Ms Geraldine O'Leary, former commercial director of RTÉ; Ms Breda O'Keeffe, former chief financial officer of RTÉ; Mr. Jim Jennings, former director of content at RTÉ; Mr. Richard Collins, former chief financial officer at RTÉ; Mr. Connor Murphy, former board member of RTÉ; Mr. Rory Coveney, former director of strategy at RTÉ; Ms Moya Doherty, former chair of RTÉ; and Mr. Ian Kehoe, former deputy chair of the board of RTÉ. A number of these invited guests were unable to attend on the grounds of illness and ill health. We wish them a speedy recovery.

The committee has received opening statements from Ms Ní Raghallaigh, Mr. Bakhurst and Ms Cusack for today's session. Is it agreed that we take those opening statements as read and proceed to questions? Agreed. Thank you. On second thoughts, perhaps the members would prefer it if the witnesses read their opening statements. We will afford them that opportunity.

I invite Ms Ní Raghallaigh to make her opening remarks.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Cathaoirleach, Teachtaí Dála agus Seanadóirí, go raibh maith agaibh as bhur gcuireadh teacht os bhur gcomhair inniu. There are a number of subjects on the agenda today, all of which are concerned with the expenditure of public funds and governance issues. As has already been acknowledged, there have been serious deficiencies in governance and, on behalf of the RTÉ board, I take the opportunity at the outset to again apologise for those failings and to assure the committee that there can be no repeat of these failings in light of the controls that have been put in place.

I know that the Grant Thornton report into Toy Show The Musical is of particular interest for discussion today. This project was a significant departure for RTÉ in an area which was new to the organisation. Last July, the RTÉ board recognised that there were serious issues with Toy Show The Musical, which is why we commissioned Grant Thornton to conduct an independent fact-finding review. The report was published on 25 January.

In compiling, preparing and producing its report, Grant Thornton, in applying its methodology under the terms of reference to prepare the report, made the decision to anonymise individuals’ names. Following requests from the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, this committee and the Committee of Public Accounts for anonymity to be removed from the report, we asked Grant Thornton if it could facilitate these requests. It subsequently contacted each individual included in the report to ask if they would consent to anonymity being removed. The updated report was published yesterday. Twenty of those interviewed consented to the inclusion of their names. In line with RTÉ policy, the names of staff below executive level remain redacted.

In summary, the report confirms a significant lapse in the oversight of Toy Show The Musical. The report finds that board approval was required for Toy Show the Musical, and it also finds that the formal approval of the board was neither sought nor provided for. The report clearly illustrates that the board was not kept appropriately informed about the project as it was being developed. Information was withheld from the board. Significant contracts were committed to without the knowledge or approval of the full board. The commercial risks associated with an undertaking of this nature were grossly underestimated. The project was not appropriately stress-tested. Expert external advice was ignored. However, it is also clear that the executive should have been interrogated by the board in respect of the project on an ongoing basis and in a much more rigorous fashion. In this regard, the board acknowledge that they should have asked more questions, and it is a source of regret for each member that they did not. We take collective responsibility for the board’s responsibility in this debacle. The report also highlights a failure in generally accepted accounting practices, in that sponsorship was not correctly presented to the board and all costs were not properly captured and linked to the project.

As a board, we recognise and regret the shortcomings that the Grant Thornton report highlights. Governance structures have now been reformed and strengthened in the following ways. The relationship between the board and the executive has been redefined. Risk assessment is now central in all decision-making at the interim leadership team level. The board now receives the minutes of all interim leadership team meetings at its scheduled meetings. A new formal approval process has been established for significant expenditure projects, which goes through both the interim leadership team and the board. All submissions relating to material expenditure approvals must now include a risk assessment and a business case, whether for the interim leadership team or, in the case of larger expenditure amounts, onwards to the board for final approval or otherwise. The level above which board authorisation is required has also been lowered from €2 million to €1 million. This applies to sports rights, programme acquisitions, programme commissions and operating expenditure.

We are committed to continuously reviewing processes to ensure they are in line with best practice. We are working with the two Government-appointed expert advisory committees - on governance and culture and contractor fees, human resources and other matters - which were announced in July. Their reports and recommendations are anticipated to be published by Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, in the near future. These recommendations will be incorporated into the future strategy of RTÉ. The future funding of RTÉ is also, obviously, of ongoing concern to the board and this strategy will be critical in this regard and in the future evolution of RTÉ.

I assure the committee and the public that the board is focused on driving the change necessary to fully restore confidence in the organisation and working with the Government to establish a sustainable funding model that will ensure that, in line with its statutory obligations, RTÉ can continue to deliver on its important public service media remit.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you. I call Mr. Bakhurst to make his opening statement.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I thank the committee members for the opportunity to speak with them today and for their patience on the delivery of the Grant Thornton report into Toy Show The Musical and the McCann Fitzgerald report on the voluntary exit schemes of 2017 and 2021. These reports are the final two RTÉ-commissioned reports into the revelations of last summer. To ensure that these failings can never be repeated, we must first identify the facts. These investigations have created the clarity we need to put in place the root-and-branch governance reforms necessary to ensure these mistakes cannot happen again. I pay tribute to the work of the two Oireachtas committees in probing important issues of expenditure, governance and professional standards. The matters at the heart of the McCann Fitzgerald report, for example, may not have come to light without them.

This has been a difficult and dispiriting time for RTÉ. I and my leadership team are determined to address every issue that has emerged. I know that a very different and better organisation will emerge from this crisis. The process of earning back trust is already under way. There is a new leadership team in place. We are adhering to better standards of information exchange, assessment and decision-making. We work collaboratively with the RTÉ board on major operational and strategic decisions, and this board has been very supportive in delivering the change we need. Importantly, there is a much improved internal communications programme in place with staff as we set about working toward a new future together and resolving some significant legacy issues.

During one of these committee sessions, the question “Who are you loyal to?” was posed. We offer our unwavering commitment to serving the audience, the people of Ireland. We are conscious that the principle of public service needs to be central to all that we do. I commend our hard-working staff and partners in the independent sector who have continued to deliver engaging, informative and entertaining public service programmes and content across television, radio and online, day in and day out, over these past few months.

Public service is at the heart of a new vision for RTÉ. As the committee is aware, we have already published a strategic framework for the future that focuses on enabling RTÉ to play a stronger role within the creative economy, deliver value for money and be more reflective of the lives of people in Ireland. We continue to develop a new governance framework to ensure that there is due process not only around what we do, but how we do it, and we will strive to run the organisation to the highest governance standards, driving transparency and accountability. RTÉ will once again become an organisation the country can be proud of.

Stability in our finances will be a key element in delivering that vision, and we are heartened by the level of public and political engagement on this issue. We welcome the Government’s stated commitment to resolve the reform of the licence fee, and we continue to work closely with the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, and NewERA in helping to inform those decisions. As the committee is aware, it is not only RTÉ that has a dependency on the licence fee but the independent sector also. We remain committed to correcting the errors of the past so we can create a sustainable future for RTÉ and public service media in Ireland.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Bakhurst. Moving swiftly on, I call Ms Cusack.

Ms Eimear Cusack

I thank the committee for the opportunity to assist it today in clarifying issues arising from the McCann Fitzgerald report into the voluntary exit programme, VEP, schemes of 2017 and 2021. I joined RTÉ in April 2017 after a large programme of work had begun to restructure the organisation. A voluntary exit programme formed part of this restructuring, and the focus was on headcount reduction and cost savings. Role suppression, or equivalent savings of 80%, was targeted in each case, and executive board approval was required.

The McCann Fitzgerald report found that all exits on both schemes followed the correct process, bar one, that being the exit of the former chief financial officer, CFO. It is a fact that a separate and confidential arrangement was entered into between the former director general and the former CFO, whereby it was agreed to release the former CFO under the 2017 VEP scheme without going through the normal VEP approval process. I was not a party to this decision nor to the discussions around it. Nevertheless, I queried the matter with the former director general when I was informed of it and I was assured the required savings would be achieved. As such, I believed this exit would be compliant with the scheme. I had no reason at that time to doubt what I was told and I did not question the approval process as it was approved by the ultimate decision-maker in the organisation. On that basis, I took the instruction in good faith.

The exit date for the former CFO was deferred on a number of occasions. Again, I was not party to the discussions around this. When a date was agreed, I was instructed by the former director general to implement the exit. This type of single-line approval could not happen now. There are revised and enhanced governance procedures now in place. For example, the revised terms of reference for the remuneration committee include a clear stipulation that any exit arrangements for any member of the RTÉ leadership team must be brought to and approved by that committee. The exit of the former CFO was processed in the same way as all others. She received the standard letter, which included the wording “as approved by the Executive Board”. This administrative oversight is one I take full responsibility for in my capacity as the signatory to that letter.

The two VEP schemes included statutory benefits where applicable. All successful applications were processed in the same way, which included the statutory benefits in the overall service-related calculations. For a small number of individuals, questions arise as to whether the departures met the legal threshold to qualify for a tax-free statutory redundancy payment. RTÉ will engage in a process with the Revenue Commissioners in this regard. If it is determined that errors were made in this regard, they were made in good faith. I take ownership of them.

With regard to workers who were engaged as sole traders rather than employees, PRSI, misclassification, retrospection and other matters, these were issues I inherited. It is I who initiated the range of processes now in place to achieve settlement and resolution, attempting to resolve decades-old matters, and I am committed to seeing the processes through. In January 2018, I began a comprehensive and independent review of all contractors providing services to RTÉ. The Eversheds review was a significant and extremely complex programme of work to address the number of legacy and complicated issues that had not been dealt with over many years. The process culminated in 79 acceptances of contracts of employment with RTÉ from 82 contracts of employment offered. On the matter of retrospection, we entered into a facilitated process with the trade union group. The outcome of that process was accepted by 80% of employees concerned, with a small number of employees opting to exercise their right to pursue matters externally.

Since January 2019, the principle of employment first has been adopted very strenuously. This means that for the majority of roles, employment is offered either on an ongoing, fixed-term or fixed-purpose basis, as appropriate. We continue to engage and co-operate fully with the Department of Social Protection in working through its independent investigation with regard to PRSI classifications. It is our hope that we can bring this process to a resolution as soon as possible.

I am very happy to give further detail on where things stand to the committee today. I remain committed to continuing to address the legacy issues of many years, but with full engagement with staff and meaningful consultation with our colleagues in the trade union group and the managers association, I am confident we will get there.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Cusack. That brings us to the end of our witness statements. I remind our witnesses that the committee may publish the opening statements, and supporting documentation received, on its web page. Before we proceed to questions from our colleagues, I ask them to agree that we will have a short comfort break at 3 p.m. to give our witnesses a few minutes break. Is that agreed? Agreed. I thank the members very much.

I now turn to my colleagues for questions. They have been issued with a rota, so they know where they are on it. Each of them has a ten-minute slot for questions and answers. I cannot guarantee that there will be a second round, so this is why they have got such a good length of time to begin with. I call Deputy Griffin.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I thank the Cathaoirleach. I welcome everyone back and thank them for being with us. I acknowledge the witnesses here with us today. I also acknowledge that we do not have Ian Kehoe, Dee Forbes, Geraldine O'Leary, Breda O'Keeffe, Jim Jennings, Richard Collins, Conor Murphy, Rory Coveney and Moya Doherty with us. Various reasons were given by those people for not being here, but I reiterate here on the record that this committee is anxious to hear from these people at some stage in the future, but as soon as possible. On behalf of the people, we want to know what really went on, and the aforementioned people are crucial to our inquiries. It is not good enough that so many people were unable to attend. We all accept their health reasons in some cases, but that everyone could not attend, or chose not to, is simply not good enough. We will have to follow up further on this aspect. I thank the witnesses who are here for being with us.

Beginning with Toy Show The Musical, and I do not want to spend too much time on this because there are other issues as well, I pose my questions in this regard to the chair of the board and the board members who were there at that time. Pages 57 to 59, inclusive, of the report show there was nothing in relation to Toy Show The Musical in the minutes from February 2023 up until July 2023. I think it was 3 July 2023, just after the scandals first emerged. At that stage, the show had been a flop and a disaster. A report had been provided to Mr. Coveney and to the board in February. Why was there nothing else in all of that time after that? Was it just brushed under the carpet and did everyone move on?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

The first meeting in 2023, in early February, was where we had a report in relation to Toy Show The Musical. We did not have the full facts or figures at that point. It was subsequent to that stage that we discovered the other aspects that led us to decide we needed to look into this in more detail.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Some people expressed the view that they were of the view that it was a fait accompli and there was no input they could have had. Looking at the reference to the convention centre, for example, on page 58 of the report, it was booked on 19 April 2022 before the meeting on 28 April 2022. I imagine the booking of that venue would have put some time pressure on as well in terms of getting everything moved along. Very few questions were asked then from there up to the first show in December 2022. I am posing this question to the witnesses who were board members at the time. Did anyone ask questions? There is nothing in the minutes to suggest that questions were asked. I refer to questions about ticket sales. Did anyone ask about ticket sales at that time? I ask this question because in the Grant Thornton report people expressed the view that they were concerned this was a big venture and they had not been consulted. Why was nobody asking about this venture subsequently, until it opened and everyone realised then that it was a flop?

Mr. Daire Hickey

I did ask the question about ticket sales. Following the combination meeting, I sent an email to Rory Coveney asking about the financials. No financials were given. He said they would be forthcoming. They came ahead of the boarding on 26 May 2022 after tickets for the event had already gone on sale.

We were told that sales were good. I asked again on 13 September how sales were going. He said some are a bit slow but things looked well and were going well. On the 21st, I followed up with him again-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

In September?

Mr. Daire Hickey

On 21 September, I followed up with him again. He said things were looking well. We had a meeting on 21 September. He said there was a large corporate booking for more than 2,000 people from DMG. On 27 October, Richard Collins said there was due to be a €300,000 profit. We were still told on 27 October that this was going very well.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

You got told-----

Mr. Daire Hickey

We did not know until the December board meeting.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

You did not get the breakdown. In July 2022, 72 tickets were sold. It is on page 46 of the report.

Mr. Daire Hickey

I asked Rory Coveney for a weekly breakdown of figures.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Some 72 tickets in a month. It is just over two a day.

Mr. Daire Hickey

I asked him for a weekly breakdown of figures and he said that was simply not possible. He acknowledges that in the report.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Can I ask about the revised strategy for 2019 to 2024 and future live events? I presume that is all parked now. There are no further live events planned by RTÉ at this stage.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

There is a history of RTÉ doing live events. For example, last weekend, we did a live event which was ticketed and sold 4,000 tickets. It was for the RTÉ Concert Orchestra performing David Bowie. There will be the Folk Awards. RTÉ has done many live events over the year but nothing with this scale of losses.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Mr. Bakhurst might be able to shed light on this. When licence fee renewals and new licences fell off a cliff at the start of July and I got reply to a parliamentary question on 17 July showing there had been almost a one third fall off at the start of July, that coincided with RTÉ deciding to pull advertising of the TV licence on channels outside its own platforms. Was that decision made at executive board level?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Ultimately, I made the decision.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Why?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

For a number of reasons, Deputy. I have seen this being raised. The main reason is because I thought, given what was emerging about RTÉ at that stage, and the constant scandal that was unfolding, that it would be inappropriate for us to be paying for adverts demanding that people pay the licence fee.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

What were the total fees paid outside of RTÉ's own platforms for advertising in the year?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

How much was paid?

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Yes.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Up to that point, it was about €200,000, as I understand it.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

So for half a year, for the remainder of 2023, it would be about €100,000.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Or more, depending on how many adverts we take.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

We have lost €20 million in licence fee revenue since this started. It is a small outlet for a huge return. Would you not have thought of pivoting the message? It is not just RTÉ that benefits. Independent broadcasters and production companies from this too. You pulled the advertising. Was this strategic? Was it part of hoping that the licence fee would ultimately fail completely and collapse-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

-----and that you will ultimately get what you were looking for?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Categorically not. It was done on two bases. One is that we were in a position where we were already worried about cashflow, so we were looking at stopping discretionary spending. We did this in conjunction with talking to the Department and An Post, I should add. The main motivator was that we did not think it was appropriate to spend licence payers' money on chasing them to pay licence fees when the scandal was unfolding. We thought it would be tone deaf at the time.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Was pivoting the message to say that it is not just RTÉ but independent producers working and living in people's areas and their local broadcasters considered as an alternative message?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It was. We pivoted the message on all RTÉ platforms to say thank you for paying the licence fee rather than demanding it.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

You did not refer to the fact that it is not just RTÉ that benefits.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Not at that point but I do not think that is the message that helps-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

There is such a huge amount of income at stake and you made this unbelievable decision to pull advertising completely on RTÉ's lifeblood.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I do not think it was an unbelievable decision. I was trying to be respectful to the audience at that stage.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

If you are in the private sector and things are going against you, you dig in, you fight and you try to claw back your revenue.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We were fighting on every front at that stage. I thought it was disrespectful to the audience to pay for adverts demanding they pay the licence fee when the events were unfolding last summer.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Can you see why someone might think, when you have been trying to get rid of the licence for years and it has now fallen off a cliff, that you have thought to let it burn?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I categorically deny that that was the motivation. We had the discussions with the Department and An Post. It can confirm those discussions if the Deputy is interested. That was absolutely not it. It was about being respectful to the audience, which is at the forefront of my mind.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

What about the independent producers and broadcasters who also benefit? Were they considered at all?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We were doing everything we could to try to address the issues that were emerging. We did not think that pivoting the message and paying for it on other platforms apart from RTÉ was the right thing-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I believe you have decided to bring them back from 20 February on other platforms.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

That is correct.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Why was that decision made?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Because we thought that was the right time to bring it back.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Why now?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We have been thinking about it for a while. We have the money now to do it and thought it was the right time to bring back the new messaging across other platforms.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I am not so sure, because the licence fee renewal figures for January still show, on average, per day, a 19% reduction from January 2023.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I think that is incorrect. The figures from January show a year-on-year fall of 4%.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

That is because you are counting an extra working day. There were 23 working days in January.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am talking about the whole of January.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I have looked through them too. I got the 8% figure and a 19% figure. I believe the 19% figure.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I do not think that is correct.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

You can massage it whatever way you want.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am going on the figures that I have, which are not a 19% fall.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I am going off the figures I have. I think it is incredible that you made this decision. Was this decision run by the board, given how much was at stake?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes, it was.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

And the board agreed this?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes, it was, for the reasons I have just discussed.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

When you were before the committee in September and licence fees came up, why was it not communicated to us here that you had decided to pull advertising?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I was not asked about it and I did not think that at that stage-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

We keep getting answers of the witnesses not being asked about it.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Sorry, Deputy, many topics were covered. I would have been very happy to answer that question.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

The attitude is that the witnesses from RTÉ are not being asked about it and therefore they will not tell.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Deputy, there are only so many questions we can answer.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I think it is relevant to the conversation. One would have expected something that big to be communicated.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It was not that big. It was €100,000.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

We are talking €20 million of revenue that is at stake.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We were doing everything we could to re-establish trust for the audience at that stage. I felt we needed to take some visible measures to re-establish trust before we went out and demanded that people pay the licence fee.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

You did not think of reminding people that it is not just the top brass at RTÉ who benefit but all of the workers and people across the sector, including in local broadcasting. You did not think that might be a more appropriate message to get public support on board.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I did dozens of interviews with the media in that period, where I reminded people that the staff of RTÉ were not to blame at all for this and that the impact of a falling licence fee would also have an impact on the independent sector. I did dozens of interviews, which were free to RTÉ, and I tried to have that message-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

It was an extraordinary decision at a time when RTÉ's revenue was going down the drain. You decided to pull advertising.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am afraid I disagree with you. It was a carefully-----

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Griffin is over his time.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Sorry Deputy, can I underline that this decision was not made unilaterally? It was made in consultation with the Department and with An Post about what the right thing to do was.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I think it was an incredible decision to make-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

That is your view.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

-----at a time when you are haemorrhaging public money.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We were doing everything we could to stop that haemorrhaging and it has-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I do not think you did. I think you did not. In my view, you contributed to that by not sending the message that needed to be heard.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I think, had we gone out at that point and spent public money to demand that people pay their licence fee, given what was emerging-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

No problems spending public money on all them other things, but this is-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

-----the opposite criticism would have been made.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Ms Cusack made a remarkable admission that she signed off on the letter that had been approved by the executive board in relation to the former chief financial officer. Has she signed off on other letters using wording "as approved by the executive board" where that approval does not or did not exist?

Ms Eimear Cusack

It was a standard letter that was printed off. I looked at the figures and signed the letter.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Would all standard letters use "as approved by the executive board"?

Ms Eimear Cusack

For the voluntary exit programme, VEP, schemes, yes.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Okay. This particular one was not approved. Did Ms Cusack sign off on any others that were not approved?

Ms Eimear Cusack

No.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

That was in the letter that you sent.

Ms Eimear Cusack

Yes.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I have one last question if I may. I wanted to get to the bogus self-employment issue and maybe my colleagues will. I have a question about this letter from Arthur Cox solicitors. Why were you asking RTÉ workers to take on Arthur Cox solicitors for what are effectively human resources issues in your own organisation? Do you think that is best practice? Do you think that is fair and acceptable in this day and age for people who are on fractions of the wages that you are earning, when they cannot resolve a long-standing issue? I think the issue has to be resolved. I ask the director general if there is an estimated figure of the cost to resolve this. Is a letter from Arthur Cox to your workers any way to treat your employees?

An Cathaoirleach

We will have to conclude there.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Could I just get a reply? Do the witnesses stand over that?

An Cathaoirleach

A very brief word, because I am sure it will be expanded on as we go.

Ms Eimear Cusack

I do not know what letter the Deputy is referring to.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Plenty of them are going out.

Ms Eimear Cusack

We have gone through a process with Eversheds. We came to an agreement with-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

What about the people who were not covered by Eversheds? There are loads of them. Are they just cast to the wind?

Ms Eimear Cusack

No, we have adopted the principle of employment first, so all of the people who work in RTÉ today are employees.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

These are RTÉ's legal representatives sending letters to your workers. Do you know that? Does the DG stand over this?

An Cathaoirleach

I have to conclude on that, Deputy Griffin, because we have gone way over the time. I hope to come back to you.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Does the DG think this is acceptable? Does he stand over these letters?

An Cathaoirleach

I am moving on. Deputy Griffin-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I cannot possibly comment on that.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

It was from Arthur Cox to RTÉ workers.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We use Arthur Cox------

Chairman

Please, we are only at the beginning of the session. I have given the Deputy loads of latitude. Deputy Munster, the floor is yours.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Thanks, Chair, and I would appreciate a little bit of latitude. I will start with the exit packages and address Ms Cusack, the head of HR. In her opening statement she stated a separate and confidential arrangement was entered into between the former DG and the former CFO. That was not normal, I take it, to have a separate and confidential agreement.

Ms Eimear Cusack

No.

Deputy Imelda Munster

So you knew something was not right with that and you said, more or less, you took Dee Forbes at her word and were happy enough to-----

Ms Eimear Cusack

It was an agreement to release the CFO on the VEP, taken outside of the overall process.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Which would not have been normal.

Ms Eimear Cusack

No, it would not.

Deputy Imelda Munster

You took her at her word that the 80% would be made up, so you let it go and did not flag it with management.

Ms Eimear Cusack

I had no reason not to trust her. I was in the organisation a short time.

Deputy Imelda Munster

You had no reason not to trust her - fair enough. When it transpired the exit package was not compliant with the scheme and you were fully aware of that, you still went ahead and implemented it. You did not flag it. You knew the rules had been broken but did not raise it with management of any description.

Ms Eimear Cusack

On the agreement the CFO came to with the director general, the assurance I was given was the cost savings would be achieved. I had no reason not to believe that.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Yes, but further on, when you were given the instruction, as you said in your opening statement, to go ahead with the scheme, you knew at that stage there was no possible chance of the 80% savings being made because the new CFO was being instated and the role had not been suppressed. You knew all that.

Ms Eimear Cusack

The terms of the 2017 scheme were very different from those of the 2021 scheme, where-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Do not play with words. You knew at that stage what you were being asked to sign off on was not correct but you did it.

Ms Eimear Cusack

I signed off on an instruction. It was the-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

You knew there was something wrong with that instruction. It did not sit comfortably with you. Even if you had given the benefit of the doubt initially, it was now in black and white that procedures were not being followed and rules were being broken, yet you signed off on it.

Ms Eimear Cusack

The rule that was broken was that the director general did not bring it to the executive.

Deputy Imelda Munster

You are the head of HR so it was your responsibility to make sure in your department things were done right, rules were not broken, procedures were adhered to and schemes were not cut up for individuals. That was your job as director of human resources. Am I correct in saying that?

Ms Eimear Cusack

Two hundred and three people went through the proper process, all of which have been verified by McCann------

Deputy Imelda Munster

No, you said it in your opening statement. That is what I am referring to. We are talking about this package where rules were broken, things were overlooked and you as head of HR did not flag it with management.

Ms Eimear Cusack

The ultimate decision-maker was my manager.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Okay. You also said this type of single-line approval could not happen now but it was not supposed to happen then either. It was supposed to have board approval.

Ms Eimear Cusack

She was the chair of the board.

Deputy Imelda Munster

No, there is a board. That is what I keep asking. You did not flag it with anyone else in management or with the board.

Ms Eimear Cusack

Not to my peers on the executive, no.

Deputy Imelda Munster

It was supposed to happen then and did not, and you are in part responsible for that because you were aware of it, part of it and involved in it but did not flag it up with anybody.

Ms Eimear Cusack

I was not part of it.

Deputy Imelda Munster

You were involved in it. You have said it here.

Ms Eimear Cusack

I was involved in the execution of it, yes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Of course you were involved in it. Your statement says:

The exit of the former CFO was processed in the same way as all others. She received the standard letter, which included the wording “as approved by the Executive Board”.

You said this was an administrative oversight and one you take full responsibility for. Deputy Griffin referred to that paragraph too. I have heard of downplaying something but that takes the biscuit. That was the third stage at which you could have flagged it. You signed the form stating in black and white “as approved by the Executive Board”, when you knew 100% it was not approved. Do not talk rubbish about it being a standard letter. If you were doing your job as director of HR, you could have said, "I can't sign that because it says it was approved by the executive board. If I sign that, I will be party to a lie."

Ms Eimear Cusack

That is the point I am making and I am telling you the truth-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

You are downplaying the facts. My point is at no stage did you intervene as head of HR or speak up and say what was being done was wrong. Believe me when I say I am trying to understand. Were you afraid of Dee Forbes? Were you afraid of questioning her or of tackling her on this?

Ms Eimear Cusack

I had no reason not to trust that the savings would not be made-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

That is not my question. I asked because of what we have just gone through, where there were three different opportunities for you to speak up and each time you did not question it and she was the top cat. In your position as director of HR, were you afraid to question Dee Forbes?

Ms Eimear Cusack

I was not afraid of Dee Forbes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

That is clear enough. That means you just did not do your job. You were not afraid to question her, you knew what she was doing was wrong and you did not do your job. That is it in a nutshell.

What does Mr. Bakhurst think on hearing a member of his executive board did not do their job? She was not afraid to hold the former director general to account but she just did not do her job.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes, I have spoken-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

We are talking about trust. The public will hear this and see that executive is still on the board and in the same position, has no excuse for not doing her job and was complicit in this all the way along.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I have spoken to Eimear about this a lot. Eimear recognises she questioned it and probably should have questioned it more. It is important to remember this was the chief executive instructing someone who had joined the organisation a relatively short time before to do it, and instructing her working with the CFO, who was a peer of Eimear's at the time and who was overseeing financial aspects of the scheme. I think Eimear recognises this should not have happened.

I would say one thing, Deputy. From what I have discovered about RTÉ, this is the way the organisation was run, in a siloed way with decisions taken outside the normal routes, avoiding governance, not going through the executive, not going to board when they should-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

I accept what you are saying but time is of the essence. That is all fair and dandy but it comes back to trust and people having confidence. I suspect with somebody who did not do their job, as we have just discovered now in black and white, that there was this thinking among those in the highest positions in RTÉ that these things would never come into the public domain or come to light. Nobody was ever going to question it. When it comes back to trust and building confidence, the public will see people who did not do their job at that time, sat there and said nothing, did not see and did not say, and who have been at this committee several times and the other committee and never spoke up or told us what we have discovered today, yet they are still on the executive board.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I will try to put this in a little bit of context and will try to be quick because I know the Deputy is watching the clock. There were 427 exits or applications for voluntary exits examined by McCann Fitzgerald. There was a single one that did not meet the standards required-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

There were questions of tax compliance about ten others, were there not?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes, there are questions and we are talking to Revenue about that.

Deputy Imelda Munster

This is all about what sticks in the public's craw, which is that people are never held accountable. People are looking now and saying this person, who is director of HR, is still on the executive board and has faced no consequences.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I will try to answer that. There have been consequences at very senior level in RTÉ. You will have see I have taken action.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I mean consequences in relation to the director of human resources for not-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

There have been consequences at executive level. I judge each individual case on its merits.

Eimear made a mistake in this case and has said so. I have worked with many heads of HR in my time and Eimear is an extremely good one. She is delivering change and fairness across the organisation.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Okay. I beg to differ.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

May I just say one thing?

Deputy Imelda Munster

I beg to differ. In my opinion, it was not a mistake. She saw a wrong in her position and did not put it right.

I will move onto the next fiasco, the toy show musical. I will address my questions to the head of the audit and risk committee, Ms O'Leary. The Grant Thornton report quotes Moya Doherty as saying that "Every Board member had the opportunity to ask questions, raise objections or disapprove of the project" at the meeting on 28 April. Is that not true?

Ms Anne O'Leary

It is not true. You have to look at the meeting organised for 29 March 2022, which is known as the combo meeting. The project was presented as a fait accompli. No financial information was given to us beforehand.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Was the first time you heard about it at the combo meeting?

Ms Anne O'Leary

Absolutely. One of the things-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Did you question anything at that combo meeting?

Ms Anne O'Leary

To clarify a point, even the invitation said-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Forget the invitation. Time is of the essence.

Ms Anne O'Leary

It is really important to-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

The invitation is irrelevant.

Ms Anne O'Leary

I would like to-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

There as a combo meeting. Forget the script.

Ms Anne O'Leary

The first time I heard about it was at that meeting. I also found out-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Did you ask questions at that meeting?

Ms Anne O'Leary

I did. Moya Doherty told me that she had made sure that Julian Erskine, a former "Riverdance" producer or director, was a part of the team. It was a complete surprise to me. They had been working on this project-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

You were shocked. What questions did you ask?

Ms Anne O'Leary

I asked a very simple question, although it was not documented. The "Late Late Show" studio is really small so I asked why the convention centre had been chosen and why we would not go for a theatre like the Gaiety to try it out first.

Deputy Imelda Munster

That was your question as chair of the audit and risk committee.

Ms Anne O'Leary

That was one of my questions. The other question-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

You said you asked one question. What was the other one?

Ms Anne O'Leary

The other questions were on when we were going to get the risk analysis, the financial model and the full briefing document. Before I say anything more, there is a very-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

You asked when the risk analysis was going to come before you. Why did-----

Ms Anne O'Leary

The answer is that it did not. An executive meeting was held on 1 March 2022 where a finance and risk analysis was done. The minutes of that executive meeting said that it needed to be brought to the audit and risk committee immediately. It never came to the committee.

Deputy Imelda Munster

You are the chair of the audit and risk committee and, at that stage, you again knew that something was afoot, that it had not been financially assessed and that proper risk management had not been done. We are not talking about tuppence ha'penny or an extra piece of furniture for a "Fair City" set.

Ms Anne O'Leary

No. You have got your-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

We are talking about something massive.

Ms Anne O'Leary

May I answer?

Deputy Imelda Munster

So, when did you-----

Ms Anne O'Leary

Just let me answer. The executive meeting was on 1 March 2022. The combo meeting was not until 29 March 2022. A number of people from the audit and risk committee kept asking Rory Coveney and Moya Doherty, who were the sponsoring executives, when we were going to get financial information. It was put in as part of a board pack for the May meeting and that is all. At that stage-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

What did you do then?

An Cathaoirleach

This is the last point. I have given Deputy Munster loads of latitude.

Ms Anne O'Leary

At that stage, it had already been announced on the "Late Late Show" of 13 May that tickets were on sale to the public.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Whatever happened with the meetings, including the combo meeting, of 1 March, 16 March and so on, at the end of the day, you are the chair of the audit and risk committee and you are tasked with risk assessment, asking questions, probing and oversight. That is your job.

Ms Anne O'Leary

It is the job of the sponsoring executive to bring to the audit and risk committee a full project and-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

It is also on you to be proactive when you know there is something of this magnitude going on but you-----

Ms Anne O'Leary

We kept asking for it but we did not get it.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask Deputy Munster to conclude.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Because of the lack of oversight, questions not being pressed and you not being across or on top of it all, there was a cost of €2.3 million to the taxpayer for a flop. There was no risk assessment done and there was no proper oversight and that was all under your watch.

Ms Anne O'Leary

That is a little unfair. There is a rigorous process in place in RTÉ as to how projects are supposed to get approval for funding. In my time-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

What happened?

Ms Anne O'Leary

The sponsoring executives, Rory Coveney and Dee Forbes, deliberately circumvented that procedure. I can list out the 32 projects that-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Did you bring it to anyone else in management, the executive board or anyone else?

Ms Anne O'Leary

The people we referred to-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Did you just go along with it?

Ms Anne O'Leary

Not at all. We referred to Rory Coveney and Dee Forbes to say how we could not get this information.

Deputy Imelda Munster

What did you do as chair of the audit and risk committee when you did not get a response from them?

An Cathaoirleach

That concludes Deputy Munster's time. I will give Ms O'Leary ten seconds.

Deputy Imelda Munster

When you did not get a response from Dee Forbes or Mr. Coveney, where did you go as chair of the audit and risk committee?

Ms Anne O'Leary

I went to the chairwoman herself. I kept being told that this was done and dusted and that it was going to be one of the best things that has ever happened to RTÉ. I was told it was going to be a great commercial success. You have to remember that, at the October and November board meetings, Richard Collins gave us projections that it was going to make €300,000 in profit. In good faith, I listened to them. They are full-time executives. The people on the board are part-time.

Deputy Imelda Munster

That is a lot of good faith that did not turn out well.

Ms Anne O'Leary

We all have full-time jobs doing other things. We only get to spend two to three days a month on this. I kept asking the question in good faith.

Deputy Imelda Munster

You would want to be more thorough than relying on good faith.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I thank the witnesses. With regard to what Kevin Bakhurst has said, it is essential that trust in RTÉ and in public service broadcasting be restored. I look forward to the day when we are discussing the broader question of public service broadcasting and how we can support the creation of Irish content and the staff and independent production companies engaged in the good work that is done. Having said that, it remains very important that there be transparency about what has happened in RTÉ and that there be accountability. A lot of these reports are on a number of things that have emerged since last summer. I have to ask whether there is anything else. Can Mr. Bakhurst assure this committee and the wider public that there is nothing else that is going to seriously concern us as to what has been going on in RTÉ or its culture?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

There is nothing else that I am aware of. I cannot give a categorical guarantee. As issues have arisen, we have tried to find out the facts and deal with them. If other issues arise, we will bring them into the public domain, deal with them and make sure they cannot happen again. I sincerely hope there is nothing else. I am not aware of anything.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I appreciate that. I am going to look at the McCann Fitzgerald report. I appreciate Ms Cusack's position and what she was dealing with. I know she was asked earlier whether she was afraid of Dee Forbes as director general. Does she feel she was misled by Dee Forbes?

Ms Eimear Cusack

In hindsight, I knew she had the authority to make decisions with regard to members of her executive team. I was given assurances that cost savings would be achieved. I had no reason not to trust her when she said that. In hindsight, those cost savings did not materialise. I do not shirk responsibility for anything I did. I issued a letter that was an error. On the statutory piece, I take full responsibility for those matters. I did trust.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I appreciate that. The McCann Fitzgerald report found that there were ten cases that potentially did not satisfy the requirements for voluntary redundancy under the relevant Acts. There were issues with Revenue in respect of those redundancy questions. With regard to the bogus contracts of self-employment, there is now a contingency plan in RTÉ with regard to the costs and the risks. What is RTÉ's potential exposure as a result of those ten or possibly 11 cases and the bogus self-employment?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I believe it says in the report that the amount in question there is €223,000. It is a part of that. It will be less than that, a percentage of it.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I suppose I am asking what RTÉ's contingency is.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We would have to budget for that. We alerted Revenue. It will be up to Revenue to decide whether to pursue all of those cases, because some are more clear-cut than others, and whether to charge us interest or fines. I cannot put an exact amount on it but it is that kind of level.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

RTÉ will have a contingency set aside, however.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We would be looking at a figure of approximately €200,000 but it is hard to say what Revenue will do.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I appreciate that.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

The Senator asked about the so-called bogus employment. We have said before that we have a contingency of €15 million in the accounts at the moment. It is extremely difficult to put an overall figure on it, and I know that one or two members were asking about this. I want to explain a little bit about why it is difficult to put an overall figure on it and why it is estimated. It is partly because this is an ongoing process with scope and we are going through the cases as rapidly as we can but they are all individual cases. There are 695 on the list we are dealing with at the moment. It is worth saying that, of those, for around 400 the liability is around PRSI because they are not working for RTÉ anymore. That is 400 of them. There are around 200 who are providing services to RTÉ, and many of those are providing them through a limited company. What I am trying to say here is that it is complex.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

We are talking €15 million and €200,000 as the two ballpark figures.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

They are ballpark, and we will certainly update the committee if we revise the €15 million, whether upwards or downwards, as we have more information.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I want to come to Ms O'Keeffe's voluntary package. This actually speaks more to the culture within the organisation. As I understand, Ms O'Keeffe was appointed the acting CFO in 2013 within RTÉ. That competition was filled internally. Her predecessor had left under a voluntary exit package at the time. Ms O'Keeffe subsequently got to leave under a voluntary exit package. This is the only case again concerning the CFO, somebody senior within the organisation. Part of our problem is we are questioning the culture within the organisation at senior levels. The issue is not around what I might call the ordinary staff who availed of the voluntary exit package. There was a CFO previously who went out under a voluntary exit package. You have another one. We are looking, potentially, at three CFOs in a row who have exited under voluntary exit packages.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Well, we are not. Richard Collins did not exit under a voluntary exit package. I think the Senator is right to put his finger on this. It is concerning to me, the way that Breda's package was agreed. I have absolute sympathy for the staff who are outraged about it because I am fairly outraged myself. They were being told at this time that RTÉ was facing significant financial issues, that all would need to make savings, people would need to have their salaries frozen or cut, and then it emerged that someone walked away with this significant amount of money in that position, and the deal was not done in the correct way. I think it is outrageous. It is one of the reasons, as soon as I had this information, that I commissioned this investigation. I think it was suggested to me by Deputy Kelly in the other committee that we should do a wide investigation to make sure there were no other cases like that.

I should also say, by the way, with regard to the delay on this, that we have faced very significant legal obstacles in publishing this report. McCann FitzGerald did. I even got a letter as of yesterday evening from the solicitors of the previous CFO setting out a range of things she would like me to say in committee. The response was that she was invited, and can come and say them herself if she wanted to.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Thank you, and that offer from the committee obviously remains, as Deputy Griffin said.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes, and it would be great if she did.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I appreciate that. If I can move on to the Grant Thornton report, and I just want to be correct in my understanding of this, no member of the board was aware of Toy Show The Musical as a concept and how it was developed before the combo meeting of 29 March. I am conscious Mr. Hickey and Ms O'Leary are named as having attended the combo meeting, but no member of the board was aware prior to March.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

The chair was. The previous chair.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

The previous chair was aware of this. I find it somewhat bizarre and really odd, given that significant financial undertaking early on and given that - I appreciate what Adrian Lynch said about some of the external expertise - this was at a scale that was unprecedented. I am conscious Ms O'Leary started to raise some of the issues. When that was presented to her at that combo meeting, as it is referred to, given the scale of it, did she not think that this needed to be an item on the agenda of the board?

Ms Anne O'Leary

I certainly did and, like I said, in March there was an executive meeting and they had said that they had gone through the finance and the audit and risk. The minute of that meeting said that the next step is to bring it to audit and risk. It was never brought to audit and risk. The Senator has to understand there is a rigorous process in place in RTÉ for projects to be approved. It is the sponsoring executive who comes with a full document on a project briefing, project schedule, execution plan, resource allocation, financial planning and risk analysis, and then they bring them to audit and risk where they are robustly examined and, typically, sent back for additional information before they are either approved or sent to the board for approval. In my time there, 33 projects have been brought through that audit and risk process. It is a really in-depth process, which then goes to the board. For example, 13 projects for up to €39 million were approved during my time in 2017. This was not.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Okay. I want to ask Mr. Lynch then, because clearly this seems to be something that was explored and examined at the executive board. The impression I get from reading the Grant Thornton report and from what we have heard from board members is that the board was at all times told this is going well and that ticket sales are fine. In fact, the wording used at one stage is that it was even presented as a fait accompli. There is a piece in the Irish Independent today, I notice, by Lisa Tierney-Keogh, who was one of those taken on board to write the script. Having some knowledge about preparing shows, she said that the script was not even written at the time of the combo meeting and some of the others. Can Mr. Lynch outline, with regard to the executive board, what he was told and what other members of the executive board were aware of? Did he not raise concerns?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

You have to remember where this project came from. It came from the 2019 strategy, which identified live events as a way of diversifying financial income because of the pressures on traditional advertising. Rory Coveney, the adviser to the DG and director of strategy, set up an RTÉ experiences group. They brainstormed this. I believe a series of ideas came out, and there was one they then looked to develop, which was a-----

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I think we know this. Was there never a question, and did somebody not say, "Folks, we are about to put a big show down in the convention centre-----

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Yes, 100%. To come to that, when it actually arrived at the executive board, which was about 14 months after they had started developing the business models, external expertise was secured, which was Julian Erskine, who was the EP of Riverdance for 25 years. His contract, which I have looked at, states that it was to deliver the-----

Senator Malcolm Byrne

A lot of that is in the public domain. Was there nobody on the executive board who just suddenly said, "Hang on, we are really worried about this. We need to go further or we need to provide more details to the board itself"?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

With regard to the executive board, I think in the Grant Thornton report you can see a set of risks were identified. There were concerns whether this would be a tacky show or if it would look like just a commercial venture, when "The Late Late Toy Show" is the most watched programme on television. There was a set of challenges raised around it.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I see they were but they were the cultural concerns and the damage to the reputation. I think it is fair to say that the issues were not necessarily raised around funds.

Very quickly, I have two final questions for Mr. Bakhurst, which is part of the restoration of trust. It is part of what we are trusting Mr. Bakhurst with. Two of the things he indicated need addressing. One is that he indicated that there would be a salary cap of €250,000 for all presenters. I would be grateful if Mr. Bakhurst could indicate progress with that. The other is the question we asked when Ryan Tubridy and Noel Kelly were before our committee and which I posed, which was around Ryan Tubridy paying back the €150,000 if the six gigs that were promised were not done. Has that been paid back, and is RTÉ continuing to pursue that? Mr. Bakhurst might also give us an update on the salary cap issue.

An Cathaoirleach

As brief as possible.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I will be as brief as possible. On the €150,000 from Ryan, it has not been paid back. Yes, clearly if we have any contact, we ask if he is going to do it but there has been no progress on that. As you know, we have no legal basis, unfortunately.

On the presenter salary cap, the answer is that every single presenter we have negotiated with since I announced that has come in at a level below that. As I said, when other presenters' contracts come up, they will also come in at that level or below it.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Thank you.

An Cathaoirleach

Moving on, I call on Deputy Mattie McGrath now please. He has ten minutes and the floor is his.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I thank our guests for coming in today. I am very disappointed with so many things going on and that no real progress has been made. My main questions is to ask how on earth could RTÉ have reappointed Deloitte as the organisation’s auditors? That firm gave a clean bill of health to RTÉ in 2023 and my question is to ask how could it have given that? Is RTÉ keeping that same firm on? I understand RTÉ has signed a new contract with it for two years but I am open to correction on that point. Is that an effort to keep the chickens in the house, if the guests can pardon the pun, and to keep the rooster away from them? We badly need a rooster to get into RTÉ because there are so many hundreds of good people in there. I want to re-emphasise that. These are people who work there daily and who are frightened and scared at what is going on. We have had the saga of the musical - the comical I call it - and it is so sad because it is taxpayers’ money. We listened this day week past when we heard the speeches, one after the other in the Dáil Chamber, about the late Taoiseach, John Bruton, and his dedication to the public service, and we are dedicated. That extends further to the public service and to RTÉ as public service broadcasters. Where was the dedication when this cabal exited? I read about it again because Moya Doherty is not here, a former chair and there is no response from her. Dee Forbes declined due to ill health. Jim Jennings also declined due to ill health. Breda O’Keeffe declined due to stress. Rory Coveney is as láthair, is absent and has declined. Richard Collins and Geraldine O’Leary have declined, as has Connor Murphy.

An Cathaoirleach

Just for clarification for Deputy McGrath, we received apologies from Ms Doherty.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I thank the Chair for the clarification. We need more than apologies. I questioned Ms Doherty at the committee here about the discrimination against female employees being forced to leave at 65 years of age when contracts were being signed with male employees up until the age of 70. This has been going on and the rot has been in there for a long time.

We have been told here today that those involved deliberately circumvented the process regarding the musical. Does RTÉ, and our witnesses, as executives and non-executives, feel betrayed by these former staff members? How do they intend to deal with that? Why would they reappoint Deloitte in view of what went on? Can our guests answer those questions first, please?

Ms Anne O’Leary

I will take the Deputy’s question on Deloitte. It was very important that it was during the March timeframe that Deloitte came to me and said it was an issue about the payments which had moved from one place to another. It immediately suggested that I go and get another extremely qualified audit company, which I did, Grant Thornton, to take a look at that. It was Deloitte that brought the issue to me. During that period of time we were coming to the end of our contract with it. To reappoint or to change an auditor is a six to eight month process, through interviewing and talking to the company, and about the audit process, etc. I, the audit team and the board came to the idea that it was the easier thing to do to allow Deloitte to continue. We have now, however, started the process of looking at changing our auditor during that period of time. I understand why the Deputy thinks that we are using the same auditor. The firm’s contract was coming to an end and we are now taking a look at appointing a different auditor and that will go out to tender.

The second part of the Deputy’s question asked if I was disappointed.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

"Betrayed" is what I said.

Ms Anne O’Leary

I feel completely betrayed. There was a robust process in place, which had been well used over the ten years, to approve and to take the approval to the board. I was used to that and I trusted that. The Deputy must remember again that we and our team are part time. I assumed that they were careful executives, that they would do their jobs and that they would bring it to the audit and risk section and it did not. Yes, I do feel betrayed.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Thanks for that but, as I said, RTÉ appointed Deloitte, which gave a clean bill of health, despite the fact that the station was facing ruin. It was out of money and depending on a cash injection from the Government. I accept that the board are temporary appointments and I have sat on many voluntary boards, as I am sure many of my colleagues have. We spent two hours one night at a meeting trying to explain an underspend of €20. That is what the public expect. It is a runaway train out in RTÉ.

Ms Anne O'Leary

To be fair to Deloitte, it brought the issue of the €150,000 which had moved from one place to another with regard to the payments which did not seem to have been approved. The firm came and told me straight away, which is why we got the first Grant Thornton audit team to come in and take a look at it

Deputy Mattie McGrath

But, surely, what else would they do? That is their job.

Ms Anne O'Leary

I am just saying the firm did its job. As far as I am concerned-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I do not expect the firm to be given a bonus for that. Deloitte gave RTÉ a clean bill of health when it should not have, full stop. I am a small businessman, like I am sure are some people around here, and if we operated in this way we would not last weeks, never mind years. Our witnesses have mentioned €15 million of a kind of contingency fund to deal with the multiple tax issues. Nobody in Ireland today could do that with Revenue. Revenue deal with things swiftly and immediately and there is not a whole debate for a firm to say that it has put a fund away and that it will pay Revenue if it has to. That is so shoddy and shabby and is so hard to believe.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

On the €15 million, that is the amount we put aside on the scope process, on which we are dealing with the Department of Social Protection. I have been in a number of meetings at a senior level with the Department myself and we are trying to resolve it. It is very complicated and these are legacy issues, some of which go back to the 1980s, I believe, or even further. It is not straightforward. Nobody in this room more than me would like to get this resolved rapidly but these are individuals and out of the 695 people, about 200 of them are people such as musicians from “The Late Late Show” who did a couple of days, or a few weeks. It ranges from such people to other people who have worked in the organisation for a long period. We are dealing with a significant range of people and the scope section has and continues to engage with us. Ms Cusack has spent all day with that unit just recently trying to work through this to see how we can get this resolved as quickly as possible. The €15 million relates to the scope provision and not to Revenue.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Mr. Bakhurst is missing my point. I or any of my companies cannot tell Revenue that we have put a fund aside there and we will wait to see. It does not happen for PRSI or PAYE workers who pay their taxes and for ordinary business people who have to do audited accounts, pony up, face the music and pay up. It is a saga.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

As we are working through the cases, we are, to quote the Deputy, ponying and paying up as the liabilities are assessed. We are doing that.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Companies are closed down every day. A businessman was on to me yesterday where Revenue just closed down all his accounts. Why does it not do that to RTÉ and why is it such a sacred cow that Revenue allows it to get-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I do not think we are a sacred cow.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

RTÉ thinks it is.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We absolutely do not think we are.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Revenue is treating RTÉ as a sacred cow because it is allowing RTÉ that flexibility. RTÉ is talking about 600 or perhaps 400 cases where RTÉ does not know. Revenue closed down a company in my town yesterday, it froze all its bank accounts for a much lower sum of money than that. That is how Revenue deals with people. It is very aggressive but there is a special relationship here because it is the national broadcaster.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am not sure about that, to respond to the Deputy, because I know that the scope section is moving on to other significant institutions after us. We are not being treated alone in this. As we are a big employer and have been for a number of years, it is complicated. We are not getting special treatment. In fact, we are rather in the spotlight more than others might be.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

There is nothing complicated about it for every citizen and every small business. Nothing. They have to pay their dues and their tax has to be collected. RTÉ had shoddy deals with private contractors and that has been going on for decades.

Deloitte’s annual inspection of RTÉ’s books was mentioned by our witnesses and it includes an evaluation of internal controls under the code of practice for governance of State bodies. Now, internal files show that the auditor expressed no concern whatsoever about RTÉ’s controls when meeting a key committee of its board three months before the scandal broke last year. There was no concept. It is a cosy cartel RTÉ has there and it reappointed Deloitte. I quote from the firm where it stated that “no significant control deficiencies have been noted” in RTÉ’s minutes of Deloitte’s presentation of the 2022 audit to the audit and risk committee, ARC, on 21 March. That is the auditors firm which RTÉ has reappointed again.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Can I----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It has not been clarified. No. Has RTÉ reappointed Deloitte or is it looking at reappointing that firm? Ms O’Leary did not seem to be sure there.

Ms Anne O'Leary

The firm was reappointed for two years and, during that time, we will be putting out a tender document to a number of different audit companies to see if we can get-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Why did RTÉ not do this before the firm was reappointed, after all of this mess?

Ms Anne O'Leary

We could not, as we are coming too close to the end of the contract.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

That is not an excuse.

Ms Anne O'Leary

Also, Deloitte had done its job.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Through the Chair, it had not done its job.

Ms Anne O'Leary

The firm did its job.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It did?

Ms Anne O'Leary

It did because the minute the firm saw there was an issue with regard to those payments, it rang me straight away.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

A minute ago I was trying to tell Ms O’Leary what Deloitte reported in March 2022. It was not doing its job. Nobody was doing their job at senior executive level and nor were the audit people, nobody. They were asleep at the wheel. It was like a ship at sea that-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I do not believe that that is fair to Deloitte from what I have seen.

First of all, in terms of the renewal, they are putting in higher thresholds where they have identified issues that they want to be more confident about. Second, if you have senior people in an organisation who are in positions of power and authority who want to somehow try and keep information away from the board or the auditors, they can do it. There is no account of that in any organisation. We have put in place so many safeguards now to make sure that cannot happen again.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

That is not acceptable. With most voluntary boards that I have served on, the auditors would run a mile from it - they would put their hands up and say they are not co-operating, they have a reputation to keep and they will not have a situation where they are not told the full facts. It is a cosy cartel in there, with the auditors and with the senior officials. They probably can lie down and forget. They do what they like, and are all powerful.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It is not a fair way to describe the organisation. It is not a cosy cartel. The auditors are-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Then what is it?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

What is it?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I could call it a lot worse now but I do not want to in the present company.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Well, go on.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

An awful lot worse.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Go on.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It is, you know. I will go back to my previous question.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask the Deputy to conclude.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Who are you loyal to?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We are loyal to the audience and we are accountable to the Oireachtas.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Codswallop.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am very happy over my term as director general to be judged by both the Oireachtas and the audience-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Codswallop.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

-----in terms of transforming the organisation.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I asked at the start for the fraud squad to be brought in to investigate this and nothing less will get the answers. This is all a waste of time here.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy Mattie McGrath. I am conscious I am not doing very well on time-keeping today. I am only at the fifth speaker. There are 13 people to speak today. I ask members to work with me as best they can. I will squeeze in and fit in, but I am giving Senator Marie Sherlock her allocated time before we give the witnesses a rest. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Senator Marie Sherlock

I thank the Chair and thank everybody who has made the effort to be here today.

We often hear the slogan, on both radio and television, about RTÉ supporting the arts and I suppose the question has to be asked today. Does RTÉ accept that serious harm was done to the reputations and indeed the livelihoods of the people involved in Toy Show The Musical in terms of how it was managed? We saw the article from Ms Lisa Tierney-Keogh this morning, in which she said that there was no full-time writer in the crew only two months before the production was due to open. It was the equivalent of a bike with a missing wheel. Has RTÉ ever apologised to any of those workers and reached out to any of those people involved in that production? Serious harm has been done because of the mess created by the executive and the board of RTÉ in their mishandling on people's livelihoods. Has anything ever been done to reach out to those individuals who were part of the production?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I cannot answer that because I was not there at the time.

Senator Marie Sherlock

But Mr. Bakhurst is trying to repair the mess that has been made.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am trying to repair it. I would apologise to any members of the artistic community who feel that they were affected. There were over 100 people from across the creative community employed by that show and a lot of the money was spent on those people - paying them to do stuff. I read that article today. It does not make pretty reading at all. If that was the way the show was bring run, it is another contributory factor to why it failed. When you try creative ideas, sometimes they succeed and sometimes they fail. I do not know a huge amount about creatively how it was run. I have been more focused on how the money got spent, why that was not prevented and what procedures were in place. I know some of the senior people who worked on that production who are very professional and who work for RTÉ. From what I have been told, some extremely talented people were brought in who have got international experience so I was quite surprised to read that it was so chaotic. All I can say is, in the circumstances I know the people who worked on it creatively did their absolute best to try and make it a success and they should take none of the blame for it.

Senator Marie Sherlock

Looking ahead, Mr. Lynch referred to the strategy set out for RTÉ to look at future live events and other ventures in order to generate funds for RTÉ. Ultimately, Toy Show The Musical was obviously a corporate governance failure. It was a financial failure and, arguably, an artistic failure because it was so undercooked. The question in my head is about something like that happening again. There is the new broom and we are told something like that or that chaos could not happen again. In terms of internal procedures, I am not clear who was making decisions on Toy Show The Musical. We are led to understand that it was Mr. Rory Coveney's brainchild, but were others involved? That is number one. Are procedures in place now so that there is reporting of minute detail up to executive board level? Is it right that RTÉ should be getting into those sorts of ventures? Organising the concert orchestra, which is obviously in a different place now, or a live event as compared to a venture such as the musical is very different thing. Should RTÉ be in that space competing with other artistic ventures?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

That is a good question. The theatre community in Dublin is quite a small community. Is it right that we are spending public money competing? These are difficult ventures to make money on in any event from any of the private companies. Personally, I would have questioned that. Is it right that we are going into this space when they are all struggling to recover from Covid, make money over the Christmas period, etc.? Personally, I do not think it was the right decision in that respect either. In everything we try to do - we have a statutory obligation to try to explore commercial opportunities - we always have got to weigh up the impact on commercial companies, private companies, etc. We are making those decisions. That is part of our public service responsibility. We do not get paid to go and compete with what the market is doing brilliantly on its own, in my view, and that would weigh very heavily. In terms of whether we will do anything like this again, I am pleased to say that the Toy Show The Musical set is gone now. There would be an extremely high threshold. Given the failure of this, given what I have just said about going into a space where private companies are struggling to make a success of it anyway, there would be a high threshold for anything on that kind of scale. I fully support and believe in the concert orchestra. I went to that concert. There were 2,000 people there and the audience loved it. It is a great thing to do. I support the concert orchestra and I hope we will be doing more with it around the country. On whether we should be doing these kind of ventures, I very much doubt the Senator will see it during my tenure, however long that lasts.

Senator Marie Sherlock

I thank Mr. Bakhurst.

I have a question for Ms Cusack. There has been a lot said about the voluntary exit package. There is a question that keeps coming up in my mind. Ms Cusack was assured that the required savings would be made and that gave her a degree of comfort with regard to the deal that was ultimately done, but it was Ms Cusack's department that ultimately would have processed the new contract for the CFO and she would have seen the salary for the new CFO. Why did Ms Cusack not raise issues then at the level of the executive to the effect that something wrong was after happening and that the savings were not required? That would have forced her to have a look-back as to the false classification, given that it was passed by the board, and all those issues?

Ms Eimear Cusack

I suppose there are two things. First, I was not aware of the rationale as to why the CFO was being given the VEP. In 2017, the criteria were very broad in that cost savings could be generated and there could be indirect suppression, as in suppression of other roles, which happened in a small number of cases whereas it could not have happened in 2021 because the rule was full role suppression.

Senator Marie Sherlock

The culture within the HR department is to apply a fine-tooth comb to managing contracts and payments to workers of RTÉ. Why did Ms Cusack not act when she did not see the required savings?

Ms Eimear Cusack

I suppose the agreement had been reached between the CFO and the director general outside of the process that I was responsible for.

Senator Marie Sherlock

That is the exit, but I refer to the incoming CEO. The savings were not there. Ms Cusack's task was to administer the scheme. There was a breach of the scheme. I suppose the other side of it is that we have a package here worth €400,000 or more. I do not know what Ms Breda O'Keeffe's package was, but obviously it was a significant package. Surely that should have been weighing on Ms Cusack's mind, but she raised nothing at the executive level when Mr. Richard Collins came in at a salary level that did not represent the saving that Ms Cusack was promised or assured.

Ms Eimear Cusack

The promise I was given was that savings would be achieved, but I was not told how they were going to be achieved. I look back now and I always say, in hindsight, that I should have pushed back harder. I did not. I took the word of the director general. That is the truth, and I cannot tell the Senator anything other than that.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Around this time, the finance department was restructured. As Ms Cusack said, in respect of the terms of this 2017 scheme, it was not about the actual role itself, but whether 80% of costs could be saved. Now, my understanding is that at least two people from the finance department left the organisation and were not replaced at that time. There were savings made around the department, so it is not a case that there were no savings. There were some savings, but this still comes back to the fact that the proper process was not followed and it should have been.

Senator Marie Sherlock

I think it points to a culture in this regard. To my mind, if people are at the executive director level, they are paid to ask questions of others. That did not happen, but it should have happened.

Ms Eimear Cusack

I did query it.

Senator Marie Sherlock

I refer to the form of the executive, however, in front of the director general. This is the key point. The conversations took place outside the room and there was no degree of transparency.

Ms Eimear Cusack

No, there absolutely was not for the executive. I agree with the Senator.

Senator Marie Sherlock

I just want to ask another question. The Resolve report was furnished to Ms Cusack on 2 March 2022.

Ms Eimear Cusack

Yes.

Senator Marie Sherlock

It took more than a year and freedom of information requests and all sorts of other efforts to get that report published. For everybody's benefit, this report examined the culture in certain parts of RTÉ because there had been allegations of bullying, etc. Why did Ms Cusack sit on that report for a year?

Ms Eimear Cusack

I did not sit on the report for the year. The report was not published in its entirety because there were privacy issues relating to individuals. I commissioned the Resolve report independently to look into the culture, etc., in current affairs. There was an outcome from it that was shared. The main findings were shared with the employees in current affairs. Changes were made. They-----

Senator Marie Sherlock

When were the changes made? To my knowledge, they were not made before the publication of this report. The reason the trade unions in RTÉ had to force the publication of this report was so that action would then be taken.

Ms Eimear Cusack

No. Changes were made before the publication of the report, and the report was only-----

Senator Marie Sherlock

I refer to moving the individual in question sideways.

Ms Eimear Cusack

I cannot comment on any individuals, but changes were made. The full report was then published in a redacted way.

Senator Marie Sherlock

Is Ms Cusack comfortable that a report, which was ultimately designed to try to improve the culture and the attitude manifested towards female workers in particular and to try to stamp out allegations of bullying, was suppressed for so long?

Ms Eimear Cusack

No. It is unfair to say it was suppressed. Everybody who was invited to participate was invited to do so to give their perceptions. There was no right of reply. It was totally anonymous. I refer to that context regarding publishing something. The trends that emerged from that report were dealt with, but it was a report based on confidential conversations between individuals in the division and the independent person who carried it out.

Senator Marie Sherlock

The trade union group was not given this report. Surely all the dealings go through the trade union group when it comes to HR matters. They were not given the report-----

Ms Eimear Cusack

No-----

Senator Marie Sherlock

This was a systemic issue. It was not just a once-off. There was a systemic issue within current affairs.

Ms Eimear Cusack

All I can tell the Senator is that when it was brought to my attention and I realised there was an issue to be addressed there, it was addressed. That was the manner in which I could address it. What emerged from that report was that changes were made. Cultural changes were made. I stand over the manner in which we presented the findings because of the way in which the report was commissioned. It would be absolutely grossly unfair to the individuals who had participated because they were guaranteed anonymity, and to individuals who may have been named in the report or whatever. What I can say is that there having been issues there for many years, these were dealt with in 2022 and changes were made.

Senator Marie Sherlock

Okay.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Can I just add to that?

An Cathaoirleach

Very quickly, please.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I will be quick. When I first started, one of the first things Ms Cusack did was that she brought the issue of the Resolve report to me. As the Senator is aware, there was some unfinished business there in terms of sorting this out and resolving it. It was about the decision having to be made at a very senior level to resolve it once and for all, which Ms Cusack totally wanted me to do and I did it. I just add this point. It was unfinished business, but I hope we redressed it.

Senator Marie Sherlock

If issues like this present again, I do not think it an appropriate approach to move people sideways. If there is wrongdoing, then there has to be a process where people are dealt with accordingly, as opposed to a culture of moving people sideways. I hope that never happens again in the context of what did happen in respect of the manner in which those issues were addressed at the time.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

As the Senator can see, this is my approach. It has not always been the approach.

Senator Marie Sherlock

Yes. I appreciate that. I thank Mr. Bakhurst.

Sitting suspended at 3.05 p.m. and resumed at 3.16 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Senator Warfield.

Senator Fintan Warfield

I thank our witnesses. We are here to discuss transparency of RTÉ's expenditure, governance issues and the future funding challenges facing RTÉ. I will focus my attention on the latter. We heard much talk today about how RTÉ has failed to advertise the TV licence and how we look forward to the day when we can talk about the future funding of RTÉ. That day is today. This has been dragging on since June. People's confidence in RTÉ has been rocked but we cannot reform RTÉ without the Government doing its job. In my view we need decisive action by the Government which includes sorting out the licence fee. That is the elephant in the room. It is a complete mess. It needs to be scrapped. It is a broken system. The Government still refuses to deal with it.

If I was cynical, I would say that the Government likes to talk about RTÉ in crisis and does not want to sort out the problems in RTÉ because every time we talk about RTÉ, we talk less about the housing crisis and the problems in healthcare. Government TDs rush out to do pieces on camera every time a bit of news about RTÉ breaks.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Who has a Dáil motion down?

Senator Fintan Warfield

If we really wanted to sort out RTÉ and the problems RTÉ and public sector broadcasting faces, we would accept the recommendation by the Future of Media Commission that RTÉ and public service broadcasting should be funded by the central Exchequer. It is not just RTÉ that is waiting for the Government to stop faffing around, it is an entire industry that ranges from cottage production companies to the big ten companies that get the overwhelming majority of commissions by RTÉ. Those are people's jobs, people's livelihoods.

The 2017 Olsberg report estimated there are about 10,000 full-time equivalent jobs in the sector. That was in 2017 or 2018. That figure would have undoubtedly increased over the past six years, so they are people's jobs, people's industry and people's small to medium-sized enterprises and companies. The Tánaiste wants the Revenue Commissioner to collect the TV licence fee. The Minister for Finance wants to keep the TV licence. What planet are they on? The ship has sailed on the TV licence. It could take a year to reform the TV licence.

That is a question I want to ask the RTÉ director general. What would a year mean? I know what it would mean. It would mean more people not paying their TV licence and another bailout for RTÉ. I do not know what the Government's problem with central Exchequer funding for RTÉ is.

The Government is already giving RTÉ €70 million through the household benefits scheme. We are giving a top-up of €10 million. We gave a bailout of €56 million this year, and there were bailouts last year. The idea that general taxation is not already funding RTÉ is insane. The proposal by the Future of Media Commission is that RTÉ and public service broadcasters would be funded through central Exchequer funding. It is the cleanest and easiest way. It is the most sensible solution. It is also the least difficult solution to this problem. It is not difficult. Norway already does it. As my colleague, Deputy Gould, said yesterday in the Dáil, the Government may as well be burning the money it spent on the Future of Media Commission if it does not accept the primary recommendation. We should scrap the TV licence and replace it with general Exchequer funding. We should put the necessary protections in place to support independence. That should also be supported by a robust regulator, which we have, and multi-annual funding as well.

TG4 is funded in this way so I do not see the problem. The reforms that we need to see, and that we have heard about today from the chair of RTÉ in her opening statement, are all undermined by the Government's refusal and failure to act. It is as if it has no hand, act or part in the failures facing RTÉ. That is the impression I get having listened to some members of Government parties here today.

The TV licence, the supporting legislation and the collection methods all need to go. They need to be scrapped. They are no longer fit for purpose. I would welcome any comment the director general has to make about the continued failure by the Government to deal with the TV licence. Then I will come to Mr. Bakhurst's plan in terms of the new direction for RTÉ.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I very much welcome the fact that there is now a real live discussion about the best way to fund public service media in this country. I have had discussions with the Sinn Féin Party but also with Government parties about the pros and cons of the different ways of doing it. What I have always said is that this is not a decision for RTÉ. Members will be pleased to hear that. It is a decision for the Oireachtas.

Senator Warfield outlined some of the important things going forward, which are, first, to maintain the independence of RTÉ as the national broadcaster, second, to give a certain stability and predictability to funding and third, to make sure that if RTÉ is to provide the range of public service channels and content we provide for this country, it is properly funded to do that. I think there is a golden opportunity here. It is a once-in-a-generation opportunity for the Government and the Oireachtas to resolve this for the future. The other side of the equation is that we absolutely pledge that if we are properly funded, we will deliver in the way that the Oireachtas, the Irish people, and audiences expect, which is high-quality public service content. We will support democracy, tackle disinformation and deliver an organisation that is transparent and accountable. I have said that again and again. That is my intention. That is why I am in this role.

Senator Fintan Warfield

In the strategy, A New Direction for RTÉ, what does Mr. Bakhurst really mean by a hybrid production model?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It is a mixture. We have said in the strategy that we are going to be spending more in the independent sector. As Senator Warfield rightly says, one of RTÉ's roles is at the centre of the creative Irish economy around the country. I was very grateful to see the letter yesterday from Screen Producers Ireland, which underlines the role RTÉ plays in terms of funding and boosting creativity around the country and in working with our partners. What we mean when we talk about a hybrid role is that we will be doing some programming and content in-house but over the years we will be spending more in the independent sector and making sure that independent producers are true partners and that they are well funded. Hopefully, if funding is predictable it means we can make decisions on a longer-term basis. I was at the "Dancing with the Stars" studio on Sunday, not for the show, but to see the studio and the people there. There are more than 100 people. It is incredibly impressive the investment they have made in that studio. It is extremely hard for brilliant producers like ShinAwiL to plan on a year-to-year basis on that kind of investment. The reason they have to do that and we have to do it is because we do not know what our funding is from year to year. This will be hugely supportive of the independent sector if we have more predictable funding and we create longer term commitments.

Senator Fintan Warfield

Does Mr. Bakhurst foresee output deals like TG4 has, as a natural part of increasing commissioning? For example, it could do a deal for four years and at a cost of X to produce Y amount of programming hours.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes, I think it would be a mix. Obviously we would have to do some things on a one-year trial to see how it goes and there should be some longer-term deals for some of the programming we do. If we talk to the independent sector, the long-term commitment and long-term funding that is coming in can be the bedrock of the independent production companies and their business models.

Senator Fintan Warfield

Could Mr. Bakhurst give us assurances that no more land will be sold at the radio centre? Is it safe? There is an excellent studio there. I cannot remember the name of the big studio.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It is studio 1. I cannot give assurances that none of the land will be sold. As the Senator knows, we have looked at all options on this, as we needed to do, and at the moment the plan is that the board has approved the option we settled on, which is to stay on the land and shrink back. We have a significant issue on the land in that we have four or five listed buildings, all of which need to be brought up to proper environmental standards by 2030, which will mean an investment of tens of millions across the site. We need to look at what we actually need on that site, particularly as we put more production around the country, in Cork and in other places. We will not need the whole site, but as to what we do with the radio centre or the other listed buildings, that will be something that we need to do some more work on and look at what are the best options for RTÉ but also for the country as a whole.

Senator Fintan Warfield

For an organisation that says it supports the arts, it would be a big deal if space could be made available for the arts and for artists. We live in a city that has an office vacancy rate of 17%. This is empty space, yet there are only 529 artist studios based in the city. Ms Ní Raghallaigh will know the difficulties facing artists in terms of space. I appeal to RTÉ to use that space for artists.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I think that is definitely an option that is on the table, particularly around the radio building. Obviously the concert orchestra relies on that studio as a rehearsal and performance space, so that is a major consideration. I do not think we have to take a decision on that over the next two or three years, but we absolutely should be looking at how we collaborate with artists and independent producers and if we can create a space for content creators, particularly new ones, to try and help those younger companies and individuals that are establishing themselves.

Senator Fintan Warfield

I thank Mr. Bakhurst.

Senator Shane Cassells

I again welcome all the witnesses. I thank Mr. Bakhurst and Ms Ní Raghallaigh for their statements, the contrition offered in those statements here today as well, and for what they are saying in terms of going forward. Their words are a bit like the White Star Line apologising for the sinking of the Titanic, because neither of them were at the helm when the musical fiasco hit the iceberg, but questions were put to RTÉ this time last year at this committee, in this room about this disastrous show. Mr. Lynch was there. He was sitting in that seat on 18 January 2023. Why did he sit there and not say a word when that matter was raised at this committee on 18 January 2023?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

I am sorry. What was the question?

Senator Shane Cassells

There was a series of questions. Mr. Lynch and Mr. Coveney were here as witnesses and there was a series of questions in respect of Toy Show The Musical. It was already quite evident that it was going to be a financial disaster. As an executive board member, why did Mr. Lynch not interject and offer his thoughts in respect of that?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

I do not remember the questions that were asked, but I would have had no problem or issue interjecting and offering the information or answering questions.

Senator Shane Cassells

My recollection of that particular day is that not only was there no contrition from Mr. Lynch or Mr. Coveney about this multimillion euro disaster, but they were, in fact, bullish. They were bullish to the point of actually looking at all of us on the committee and saying: "You guys, in the previous autumn, had actually encouraged musicals. Sure we were only doing what you were asking us to do. That is why we got ourselves involved in this particular production, and that RTÉ was supporting Irish musicals." Mr. Bakhurst has just said that he personally did not think that this production was right, so I checked some of the transcripts.

In January last year, Mr. Coveney said to this committee about the production:

There are several factors that go into something like this. It is not something we decided on a whim; it is a project that was in gestation for nearly three years ... We are very proud of it.

He said things were not decided on a whim. Let us examine that. In the Irish Independent this morning, as has been noted, the writer charged with creating the original drafts of the script, Lisa Tierney-Keogh, has written an article saying she was hired on 13 April 2022 with the instruction to have four drafts of the show done before that August. That is four drafts in less than four months, a timeframe she described as bonkers. The contract was signed six days later, on 19 April, when she was hired. There was no script in place, only an idea, and no theatrical analysis, from a performance point of view, of whether the show could be a success. The ordinary people working on the show knew it was a hare-brained scheme, yet Mr. Lynch and Mr. Coveney sat at the committee in January last year and defended it to the point of telling us they would be booking a second instalment of the show for Christmas 2023. Why did Mr. Lynch sit here in January last year and not interject as Mr. Coveney defended what was clearly evidence of financial disaster?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

I will just say two things on that. One is that I read the piece by the writer in the Irish Independent today. I was not involved with this project and am not aware of the details of the actual production. Second, in terms of the meeting in January last year, I do not think any questions were posed to me at that point around the creative production. Mr. Coveney was leading the project and answered the questions.

Senator Shane Cassells

Okay, that is fine.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

I was very happy on the day to answer other questions.

Senator Shane Cassells

Mr. Lynch has said that, if asked, he would have interjected. He sat there as a person who, as an executive board member, had knowledge. He was aware of the issues pertaining to the show. As a senior executive board member, why did he not interject and offer that knowledge to the committee as the debate was evolving?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

In terms of answering questions around that, I actually learned quite a lot of which I had been unaware from reading the third Grant Thornton report. I was unaware of the fact the information did not formally go the audit and risk committee. I was unaware of the fact there had been a combo meeting. There was a whole set of details I was unaware of and that I actually only learned after the board initiated the investigation. I was not in a position in January last year to interject. I did not have that knowledge in January.

Senator Shane Cassells

Not only were the board members left in the dark, Mr. Lynch is telling me that he, as a senior executive member, was, in effect, in the dark as well.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

If we look at the minutes in the third Grant Thornton report, we see it stated very clearly that after the executive board, the next step was the audit and risk committee. We also see that there is a reference in the report that the musical was very well received by the board, which was in a note from the director general to the executive board. At that point, I would have had no knowledge that the information did not go to the audit and risk committee. As Ms O'Leary said earlier, multiple projects follow a process in RTÉ-----

Senator Shane Cassells

We will get to the audit and risk committee in a second. I am going back to January last year when Mr. Lynch definitely did know this goose was cooked. The day of that meeting, I met him and Mr. Coveney on the stairs before heading down to these rooms. Mr. Coveney made a joke about "going easy on us today". What strategy had Mr. Lynch and Mr. Coveney worked out going down those stairs, knowing that there would inevitably be questions about Toy Show The Musical and in terms of the information they were going to disclose that day?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Will the Senator remind me what items were on the agenda that day? Was Toy Show The Musical one of those items?

Senator Shane Cassells

It was a broad discussion on the future of public funding of public broadcasting.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Correct. I remember now. The kind of preparation I would have done for that was more around licence fee reform and the output of the station. At no point did we discuss a-----

Senator Shane Cassells

You knew it was going to coming up.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Sorry, Senator. At no point did we have a discussion around a strategy in terms of how we were going to deal with Toy Show The Musical.

Senator Shane Cassells

Was there was no discussion prior to that meeting about what you would say or not say if it came up?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

My understanding was there was a broad agenda. I am starting to remember what we discussed on the day and it was really around funding.

Senator Shane Cassells

After that meeting, did you discuss the issue with Mr. Coveney to say it was going to be a problem for you later down the road?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

To be clear, I went to Toy Show The Musical once, in the December. At that stage, it was patently obvious to me that it was in very bad condition from a financial point of view. So, yes, I would have known. Had I been asked a question in the committee, I absolutely would have answered it. I have come to seven committee meetings and have answered all the questions I have been asked. There is no issue there.

Senator Shane Cassells

On 10 January 2023, which was eight days before that meeting of the committee, there was an executive board meeting at which Mr. Coveney was looking at this musical, including the outturns, the options around it and doing a deep dive with regard to remounting and strategic questions around it. Does Mr. Lynch remember that meeting?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

I do indeed and I remember that, at that stage, Mr. Coveney was tabling the idea. This was always supposed to be a multi-annual show, as I understand it.

Senator Shane Cassells

Absolutely.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

The set, songs and intellectual property would be capitalised over time. At that point, Mr. Coveney was proposing that he would go away and look at a plan in terms of what could be salvaged from what was an absolutely poor outturn.

Senator Shane Cassells

Were you as confident as Mr. Coveney in terms of the success of this as a multi-annual production that we could see coming back and back again?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

On 1 March 2022, when it was brought to the executive board, it came with the expert whom the chair had put in contact with the production team, together with the business case and so on. I did not realise until today that no financials had gone forward to the audit and risk committee. I was not aware of that until today when I was speaking with Ms O'Leary earlier.

Senator Shane Cassells

Normally with a major theatrical production, there would be an agreement with the venue, such as the Bord Gáis Energy Theatre or wherever, whereby that venue would take a percentage, say 20%, of the seat sales. Was a similar deal done with the convention centre or was it given a flat flee and given payment for every seat in the house regardless of whether those seats were filled?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

I was not across any element of the show, so I am not aware of-----

Senator Shane Cassells

Do any of the witnesses know the nature of the contract, that is, whether it was a flat-fee or percentage deal, the latter being the normal scenario with theatrical productions? Anybody? It seems nobody knows.

My next question is for Mr. Bakhurst. Was Mr. Coveney made the fall guy for this fiasco because it could be said that he tried something and it did not work? In terms of a leadership standing together, was Mr. Coveney operating totally independently? Why did he have to resign?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Rory decided as events unfolded early last summer that his position was not tenable in the organisation. As facts emerged, I agreed with him.

Senator Shane Cassells

What were the circumstances that led you to agree with that summation?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Some of the knowledge of what has emerged today. He felt his position was not sustainable and it was the honourable thing to do to go. I said to him that I was disappointed, because he is a very clever man and I enjoyed working with him previously at RTÉ, but given what I knew then, which was only a few days after I started the job, I felt it was probably the right decision.

Senator Shane Cassells

Was there an exit package put in place for Mr. Coveney given that he resigned?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I cannot talk about individual circumstances. I have had legal advice about that.

Senator Shane Cassells

I am not asking for the nature of a package. I am just asking for confirmation as to whether there was an exit package for Mr. Coveney considering that he resigned.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes, there was.

Senator Shane Cassells

In the context of the audit and risk process that was mentioned earlier, it is very much a case of people throwing each other under the bus when one reads the Grant Thornton report. Ms Doherty is quoted as saying that the audit and risk committee had an independent function and, if it wanted, it could have requested to look at the issue. Ms O'Leary clearly disagrees with that view.

Ms Anne O'Leary

I do, unfortunately, because the first I heard about Toy Show The Musical was on 29 March. The convention centre was booked just a couple of days after that. I did not have that information. When I started asking for it, I got absolute pushback. I did not get the information. The financial information did not even get in front of the board until that May. It was not even on the agenda until the May board meeting. The Senator has to remember that we were taking things in good faith and that right up to October and November of that year, we were getting reports from Richard Collins that the show was projected to make a profit of €300,000. I have to believe that too because I was not-----

Senator Shane Cassells

I appreciate that but the convention centre was not booked until 19 April. There was an opportunity, given that Ms O'Leary had not been presented with the risk analysis the people involved say they had conducted and which they say was ready on 1 March, to pull this.

Ms Anne O'Leary

They did not ever present it to me.

Senator Shane Cassells

I know that but I am saying that the fact it was not provided should have given cause for alarm as to why it was not being provided to Ms O'Leary's committee.

Ms Anne O'Leary

I continually asked Rory and Dee for the information that should have been given to the audit and risk committee and it just was not given.

Senator Shane Cassells

Was it effectively a rejection or was it an ignoring of your request?

Ms Anne O'Leary

I would say the second one. By the way, there is nobody being thrown under the bus here. If the audit and risk team had been given the information, having proved we had done that for 32 projects over ten years, we would have examined it in exactly the same way.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I was not at RTÉ at this stage, but I have obviously heard discussions, read the documents and interrogated some of the answers. I feel that neither the board nor the full executive were furnished with information they should have been. This is what I have tried to address now at RTÉ. These discussions were had in silos with a small group of people. The procedures were not followed. The board was not given the information it should have been on a standard basis, but especially when it specifically asked for pieces of information and was not given them. All I can say is my perception, from what I know now, is that whether it was deliberate, inadvertent or loosely run, this would not happen now. We have tightened up procedures. I would not stand for it. If the board asks for information from me now it gets it. I want to make that clear because it is only fair to the board members here.

Senator Shane Cassells

Absolutely, but we are doing this against a backdrop of future funding, which is also an agenda item today. You said it is an Oireachtas matter. Some in these buildings want it to be fully funded from the public Exchequer. We will have a vote on that in the Dáil tonight. Along with that there are those calling for an amnesty for people who will not pay their TV licence. To me, it looks like RTÉ is looking for that amnesty. We have a situation where management, former management and ex-employees have cost taxpayers millions of euro along with other largesses. We now have an organisation with mounting losses coming to the Exchequer effectively asking to be bailed out. I have a problem with that. I have said it to this committee. I have said it on television, and I have said it in the Chamber. I do not agree with the proposals being put forward tonight. I am a supporter of RTÉ, but I do not agree with those proposals. I ask you to look at the year ahead because I do not want it to be felt like that is a crutch for RTÉ. I am fearful of that. What are the projected TV licence figure losses for 2024, going off this trajectory?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It is hard to say that, because the licence fee figures have been moving around over the past few months. For the last month we had, the licence fee collection figures had improved quite considerably. The last week was not so good. The trajectory over the past three or four months has been a steady improvement in people paying their TV licences, for which we are grateful. I add to that, we are doing everything we can to help ourselves. We took substantial costs out of the organisation in the last five or six months of last year. We are making savings of millions this year, and there is a price to that for the organisation. We are not investing in some digital projects we want to, and which are important to the future. We are trying to save as much money as we can, while respecting that we have a responsibility to our staff and so on.

Senator Shane Cassells

What is anticipated on the commercial income side? There are a number of major events such as the Olympics, the World Cup or whatever that will add to the commercial income of RTÉ this year.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Commercial income is performing very well at the moment. You touched on the Olympic and the Paralympic Games. As I understand it, sponsorship is looking very good for those games, which is unusual. We have a new commercial director, Gavin Deans, who arrived last week. I am sure at some point he would welcome the chance to come here to talk about the commercial strategy. The commercial team has been doing a great job. Not just the team, but the commercial agencies that have supported us throughout this still recognise that we are producing quality content they want to be associated with. That is welcome. It could have posed a bigger problem for us if that had not happened.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Again, I thank the witnesses for joining us and taking time out to engage with the committee. Mr. Bakhurst said in his opening statement that the matters at the heart of the McCann Fitzgerald report may not have come to light without the work of the Oireachtas committee. To us sitting on this side that is a strange thing to say. Does he agree?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I do not think it is a strange thing to say. First, I had no knowledge, and nor did many people in the organisation, that Breda O'Keeffe took a voluntary exit package until she said it in one of the committees. Having heard that I asked a little more to establish the facts in the couple of days before I appeared before the committee. When I appeared at the PAC, Deputy Kelly rightly suggested that although I furnished the facts about what happened - and which were confirmed in the report - there needed to be a wider investigation to see if there were any other cases in this category.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Surely the issue would have been brought to light by Ms Cusack. Did she communicate to you on the basis of what was raised by Breda O'Keeffe at that committee meeting?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Straight after I heard about Breda O'Keeffe at the committee I went to Eimear Cusack and asked her for the details, and yes, she gave them to me. That was the email exchange I alluded to in that committee.

Deputy Alan Dillon

What was the cost to RTÉ of the voluntary exit package?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Of which voluntary exit package?

Deputy Alan Dillon

For Breda O'Keeffe.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I cannot say that. That is confidential, and I cannot say-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

I think it is really important, Mr. Bakhurst, that you put that into the public domain, because this is pretty important. You are building a new RTÉ. It needs to be transparent. It needs to be trustworthy and to have integrity. We also need to see accountability. You are under privilege here, and it is in the public interest that you provide that information to the committee.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I would say two things. The first, as I have said, is that we have had significant legal pressure over months to get this report out and to deal with this issue.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I accept that.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

There is a legal threat over this. I agree with you that transparency is important. I agree it is important in this case. Breda O'Keeffe was paid €450,000 to leave.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Will you repeat that?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

€450,000.

Deputy Alan Dillon

This question is for Ms Cusack. How many times have you signed off on a package in excess of €400,000?

Ms Eimear Cusack

Is that from a VEP perspective? I have not.

Deputy Alan Dillon

This is the only one at this scale.

Ms Eimear Cusack

On the VEP, there were 177 left from the first scheme and 26 from the second scheme, all of which went through due process. I would not have seen one as high as that.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Were you for responsible the management of the recruitment and appointment of Breda O'Keeffe's replacement CFO?

Ms Eimear Cusack

It went through MERC Partners headhunters, but I was on the panel.

Deputy Alan Dillon

In terms of the appointment and business case you were exposed to, this was an internal appointment. Is that correct?

Ms Eimear Cusack

No. It was an external appointment. The first time I saw the business case the CFO had given to the DG was when I saw it in the Grant Thornton report about an internal person being promoted, but that could not have happened because it was going to be a public competition. That could never have been conceded.

Deputy Alan Dillon

The role was not suppressed. Is that correct?

Ms Eimear Cusack

No, the role was not suppressed.

Deputy Alan Dillon

The business plan, therefore, was not credible. It was unworthy.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Just to be clear, Deputy, on the 2017 scheme, which Breda availed of, it was not about individual role suppressions but about overall savings.

Deputy Alan Dillon

We are asking Ms Cusack about the actual business plan. A lot of what was contained in the business plan did not stand up with regard to the recruitment process and the appointment you were making.

Ms Eimear Cusack

I was never made aware of the business plan. I was told that the cost savings would be achieved. As I said earlier, looking back today I should have pushed back harder. In that scheme role suppression was not the only criterion, which differed from 2021, which was run differently.

Deputy Alan Dillon

How do you authorise a financial transaction in excess of €400,000? What steps are taken within RTÉ to authorise this?

Ms Eimear Cusack

At that time it was processed in the normal way as all of the voluntary exits were processed.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Will you describe that process?

Ms Eimear Cusack

HR would do the figures for everybody, through looking at their service and that sort of stuff. It would then go through payroll.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Who in payroll was aware of this package?

Ms Eimear Cusack

It would just be processed by somebody junior.

Deputy Alan Dillon

That would be on the authorisation of the HR director.

Ms Eimear Cusack

I signed the letter, yes.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Do you accept there was a serious breach of your duties in this concealment?

Ms Eimear Cusack

I accept that there should not have been one approval.

It could not happen today because there would have to be authorisation from the board.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Does Ms Cusack accept that not communicating this to the executive management for the past six years was a serious breach?

Ms Eimear Cusack

When I look back on it, I see it was a confidential agreement between the director general and the CFO. I had no notion of, and was not told about, the rationale for it.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Ms Cusack's responsibility is to RTÉ, the public broadcaster. Does she not feel that this concealment, this breach of her responsibility, had serious consequences?

Ms Eimear Cusack

I did not conceal anything. I processed something under instruction. I say now that in hindsight, I should have pushed back further but-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

Can I ask-----

Ms Eimear Cusack

Let me finish. I was dealing with my manager, who was the CEO of the organisation and who had the authority to make such a decision, and a peer, who was the CFO.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I accept that. May I ask about the potential tax bill from the payment made to Breda O'Keeffe? Who will bear that financial burden?

Ms Eimear Cusack

It will be RTÉ.

Deputy Alan Dillon

At what cost?

Ms Eimear Cusack

There are ten that we have alerted Revenue there may be some issues around. It would be a part of that. I do not know the particular-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I think it is only a very small part of that amount of money.

Deputy Alan Dillon

In respect of the tax bill arising from the other ten redundancies, what effort will be made to recoup that money?

Ms Eimear Cusack

The majority or all of these cases pertain to the 2017 scheme. In a small number of cases, people were released.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Can I just ask-----

Ms Eimear Cusack

Will I finish?

Deputy Alan Dillon

Yes.

Ms Eimear Cusack

People were released as part of the VEP on the basis that their roles would be suppressed but within a short space of time, it was realised that because of the restructuring that was taking place, those roles would be needed and those staff members had to be replaced. There may, therefore, be a statutory liability under the Redundancy Payments Act. A small number of others were affected because as part of the programme in 2017, there was the possibility to create indirect cost savings. Somebody may have been released and the cost savings achieved elsewhere. There may be a liability in that regard.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Did Rory Coveney get an exit package after his resignation? Did Ms Cusack sign off on that?

Ms Eimear Cusack

I think the director general has-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

I am asking Ms Cusack. It is her responsibility and within her function.

Ms Eimear Cusack

I would have done any of the paperwork that surrounded any of the exits.

Deputy Alan Dillon

In terms of the executive management, they all received exit packages following resignation?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Not all of them.

Ms Eimear Cusack

No.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Can Mr. Bakhurst identify who did not?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No.

Deputy Alan Dillon

For what reason?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We have confidentiality agreements with them, and I cannot break the law.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Perhaps the chair of the board would be able to provide some information in that regard. It is important. We have been at this for months. Mr. Bakhurst previously said in public that his confidence in the executive management was eroded. We would like to know who got packages and who did not.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I cannot give the Deputy that information but I can get back to him with whatever I can, given the legal restrictions. I have no problem coming back to the Deputy.

Deputy Alan Dillon

The board of RTÉ says information was withheld. In one sense, it did not follow the proper corporate governance rules. Moya Doherty afforded no opportunity to members of the board to be briefed properly in advance to allow them to ask questions about Toy Show The Musical. This is very serious. Do the witnesses agree?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I agree.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Has Mr. Bakhurst talked to Moya Doherty and Rory Coveney about what happened?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I spoke to Rory Coveney at the time he was talking about leaving the organisation. I have not spoken to Moya Doherty about this issue. As the committee knows, she has not been very available. It would be very helpful if she could come and given her account.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Given the seriousness of the situation, has Mr. Bakhurst considered reporting any of these matters to the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement or-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No, the advice is-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

-----the Garda National Economic Crime Bureau-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No, because the advice-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

-----because we are taking about millions of euros here.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Corporate governance was broken and procedures were not followed. The whole thing was run in a very ad hoc, loose and, in my view, often unprofessional way. However, my advice is that no laws were broken. I have taken legal advice on specific cases to see if any laws were broken and the advice has been that laws were not broken. If they had been, I would report it.

Deputy Alan Dillon

May I briefly raise an issue similar to that raised by Deputy Griffin regarding the Department of Social Protection's scope investigations? More than 694 workers have now been awarded potential PRSI decisions. What steps is RTÉ taking in response to this probe?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We are trying to work our way through it. As I said earlier, they are 695 individual cases. It is worth remembering that of the 695, a couple of hundred are probably people who provided only limited service to RTÉ in times of their time commitments, including musicians, sports pundits and so on. The number looks far more substantial than it is. We have already dealt, through Eversheds, with approximately 80 of the cases of people who were still employed there.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Why was the Eversheds report limited to such a specific timeframe?

Ms Eimear Cusack

I will take that. When I joined in 2017, the commitment was given to look at the contractor population and we brought in Eversheds. It did a review of hundreds of contractors. It was deemed at the time that the people who should be looked at and given priority were people who were in standard roles within RTÉ.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Who influenced that decision?

Ms Eimear Cusack

This was a decision-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

Who was responsible for that decision?

Ms Eimear Cusack

-----made by Eversheds. The people who were not included in the review at that time were on-air presenters, people who had limited companies and the vast number of people who came in to work in RTÉ as contributors. Those included, for example, as the director general said, people who came in to do sports punditry, etc. They were excluded.

When we offered employment contracts to 82 people and 79 accepted. It was done as a kind of collective approach with the trade union group, TUG. We had a set of governing principles which determined how we were going to handle the employment contracts. At the end of that, we agreed that when this was concluded at some point in the future, both parties would sit down to consider the matters outstanding, including retrospection. That was in 2022. Covid-19 got in the way a little, but we agreed with the TUG to bring in independent facilitators to help us navigate a collective agreement to address this matter. The TUG appointed an independent expert on its side and we brought somebody in. They facilitated the collective agreement between us that was the best deal available. We presented it to our employees who were impacted and they had the option to accept the agreement or not.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Has RTÉ estimated the potential compensation required to cover the liabilities from the scope section's investigations that are ongoing?

Ms Eimear Cusack

Perhaps I can finish, because it is important and they are two separate considerations. Some 81% of those who were offered the retrospective agreement accepted it. A small number have not accepted it. Those are some of the cases that Deputy Griffin may be referring to. I know from HR, and I have discussed this at length with Mr. Bakhurst, that it has been tricky and many people-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

It has been handled terribly.

Ms Eimear Cusack

-----have not been happy. Pardon?

Deputy Alan Dillon

From the feedback we are receiving-----

Ms Eimear Cusack

Many people have been unhappy with it and have said they want to take it to a third party. I understand that at a human level. However, it would be absolutely disrespectful to all of those who signed up to it to start unravelling what was a collective agreement in order to address specific concerns from individuals. All of these people have had their own unique sets of circumstances in terms of how they were engaged with RTÉ. Many of them were different. When the process with Eversheds was under way, the Department of Social Protection approached us and said it wanted to carry out an independent investigation.

We began an engagement with them and we provided them with a list of 695 names of people who have been providing services to RTÉ. They have that list of 695, which is the list that went into the public domain. Of that grouping now, 396 are no longer engaged in services for RTÉ. Of that 396, the majority were contributors, which means coming into radio programmes, writing crosswords, giving opinions on various things.

Deputy Alan Dillon

What about the other 300 names?

Ms Eimear Cusack

Of the other 300, there are 102 who are now employees of RTÉ, 79 of whom came in as employees as part of Eversheds. Of the 197 people still providing services, there are 55 of those who are limited companies and they would mainly be on-air presenting staff. We are in discussion with Scope around them. There are some other on-air presenters who are sole traders, whom we are looking at with Scope as to their classification. Then the issue for us is how we are going to engage them if they become employees because premium rates are very different. The remainder are contributors, particularly in sports. For example, somebody may have a contract for services from RTÉ that covers a 12-month period for sports punditry. They may be called upon four times the year. We do not know when because it depends on when the events take place but because nobody can come into RTÉ, as a contractor, without a contract in place then the earnings will be very low. For all other categories, since 2019 people are being employed using employment contracts.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

First, I will question Mr. Lynch. I asked the questions in respect of Toy Show The Musical at a meeting held on 18 January 2023, when we were discussing the future of media, which Senator Cassells raised there. Ironically, Mr. Lynch is sitting in the same seat as he did on that day. I wanted to know RTÉ's views, as an organisation, on where the decision came from, on how much it had invested in it, on whether the project would lose money and on what the future plans were. I asked that of both Mr. Lynch and Mr. Coveney. We got a lot of information but not many figures to highlight the seriousness of the situation. Mr. Lynch never made any comment at all while Mr. Coveney spoke about the project being three years in gestation. The idea spent three years in the background in RTÉ but no one seemed to think that was an issue in an organisation of its size. There are serious concerns about the audit and risk in that regard. There were plans for 2023 and RTÉ was proud of the project. That was at an Oireachtas committee. Why did Mr. Lynch make no comment on those replies or when the question was put by members of this committee, who represent the taxpayer, and when concerns were highlighted about the show? Questions were asked about costs, losses, etc., but no comment was made. It was mentioned that a report would be sent to the Committee of Public Accounts in the minutes of the meeting but I do not think that seemed to highlight the existing serious issues. It was only when this matter came back here in the middle of last year for discussion that these matters came to light. Why was no comment made by either Mr. Lynch or Mr. Coveney? Mr. Coveney is not here to reply today but Mr. Lynch is. Why were concerns not highlighted to this Oireachtas committee?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Mr. Coveney was the project lead and answered all the questions on that day. As I have said, I have appeared before seven Oireachtas committee meetings and I am very happy to answer any question today. It was not a case of sitting there. It was not about concealment or anything like that. I was not asked a question about it, so-----

Senator Micheál Carrigy

The question was put to both Mr. Lynch and Mr. Coveney. If Mr. Lynch was aware that there were concerns then he should have made us aware of them, as an Oireachtas committee, representing the taxpayer but he did not.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

As I said earlier, I read the GT3 report in terms of the background details of the project, in terms of what had happened from a corporate governance point of view, so I would not have been aware at that point. If Mr. Coveney was here today his view, before he left RTÉ, was this had been approved by the organisation and by the board. That was his view because I spoke to him before he had left the organisation.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

Does Ms O'Leary take responsibility for the fiasco, as the person who is in charge of audit and risk?

Ms Anne O'Leary

That I should take responsibility for the fiasco of Toy Show The Musical is an interesting way of putting it. Unlike any of the projects that sought proper approval and that were brought through the rigorous process that was in place, it was not brought through that. When we went to look for the information, it was not given to us. The executives are full-time permanent employees. We are a part-time board that comes to examine something. We assume they are going to do their job like on the other 33 projects that had been brought in in the previous nine years, and that brought with them would be the full projects plans, project schedules, the risk analysis, the finance, etc., to have a robust discussion about approving the project, or not. They did not bring it to us. How can I take responsibility? If they had brought it, then we would have done exactly the same rigorous procedure as we had been doing for the previous nine and half years while I was there.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

Then Ms O'Leary should take responsibility that a project like that should not have gone ahead as that information was not made available.

Ms Anne O'Leary

Without a shadow of a doubt, I should and who would the Senator have sought me to contact, and I did. It would be Rory Coveney, who was the strategic director, Dee Forbes, who was the DG, and then above that, Moya Doherty, who was the chairman. Who else am I going to look at?

Senator Micheál Carrigy

It is ironic that all three of them are not here to give answers.

Ms Anne O'Leary

I wish they were.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

It is very easy to blame the people who are not here.

Ms Anne O'Leary

Now, that is-----

Senator Micheál Carrigy

In fairness, if you are in a role like that then you have to take responsibility. That is my view.

Ms Anne O'Leary

Hold on a second. I take responsibility for the operation of the audit and risk. All of the other times projects were brought to us in the way they should have been, where there was rigorous process which was incredibly clear - crystal clear - to all the others. If they were the sponsor executives, it is that they did not do their job, not I did not do mine.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

This project was brought by two producers - Jane Murphy and Katherine Drohan. How much were they paid?

Ms Anne O'Leary

I am the wrong person to ask that question. I would have no idea.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

As I understand it - we can confirm this in writing and I will look into it - the producers were seconded from other parts of RTÉ, so they would not necessarily have been paid and would have just been moved across on to a different project.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I do not think that is the case.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We will have to write to the Senator. I am sorry we do not have that detail.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

In documentation that I have seen they were paid extra over the three-year period.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Okay. We will write with the detail. I do know the detail of that.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

Yet when the project was a flop, they were transferred to other roles - an executive producer of "The Late Late Show" and RTÉ's editor of internal productions. They got a promotion.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am not sure they got a promotion. These two individuals are quite junior which is why we have not named them. It is not fair on them. They are both very talented individuals and we are lucky to have them as an organisation.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

A fair point.

I want to say to Ms Cusack about the exit package that €450,000 is a lot of money. In her role she is responsible to the taxpayer but, one, she did not question the approval process, and two, she did not ask how savings would be achieved, and yet she signed off on the approval by the executive board despite the fact she knew it was not approved by the board. I am the treasurer of my local GAA club and I cannot approve anything without it going through the board or the committee of the club. Yet, we have a massive national organisation like RTÉ and Ms Cusack signed off on it. I do not think her position is tenable in the eyes of the public, who are listening today, to say that it was an error in judgment. We are talking about a package worth €450,000. It seems there was a certain little arrangement because the person involved was at that level within the organisation.

Ms Eimear Cusack

All I can say to the Senator is that the agreement was reached between the CFO and the director general outside of the process. The director general and the CFO reported into the board every month. The only person I had to rely on was my manager, who was the director general, who had the authority to make that decision. I did not. To be honest with you, I trusted her. I would not have thought of going over her head to the board. I had never been to the board except on a number of occasions to talk about stuff in general terms. I did not have that. That is just the truth of it.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

The reality is it should have gone to the board.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Senator, it is really important that the audience and the Oireachtas knows that this could not happen now.

We put in place new procedures.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

It has happened.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It has happened.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

That is why we are here.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It has happened and that is what I am trying to do. I am trying to address these issues. As I said, I was shocked by it. It was completely unacceptable and it should not have happened. This was the way the organisation was run. The right procedures were not in place and there was not the right relationship between the then executive team and the board. This would not happen now. When any single person leaves the organisation - we do occasionally have to pay people to leave - it has to go through, first, the director general and the head of HR and it then has to go through the board remuneration committee and, potentially, the board itself, if it thinks it is appropriate. There is a fully transparent, proper, robust process in place. This is a reflection of how the organisation was run and siloed, with small conversations happening offline and the proper information not being given to the full executive or the board. That is what we have been dealing with. Everything that we have put in place, which will be reviewed by the expert committees, and the myriad changes to governance are to ensure this cannot happen again. I had to come in and deal with this and all I can do is address the issues as I see them and make sure they cannot happen again.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I totally accept that they might not happen again but the confidence of licence fee payers is going down the Swanee because people who made significant mistakes in senior roles in the organisation have us here today. Ultimately, the money that is not being received from the licence fees will have be got from the Exchequer. That is the reality.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I totally agree.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

There needs to be significant changes at the top level. Some have happened.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

A significant amount has happened, to be fair.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

More needs to happen if we are going to get the confidence of licence fee payers. They are the people I am listening to every day of the week.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

The only thing I would say to that is we are involved in a significant change process at RTÉ. We are transforming the company, as can be seen from the scope project on its own. That, in itself, is an immensely complicated piece of work. I have made the changes that I think need to be made and people have had to take responsibility for what they have done.

In the case of the HR director, she delivers day in, day out for this company. She is driving change and fairness. She is an important part of the leadership team. I am not afraid to make changes, as the Senator has seen. A significant number of people have left. I will make the changes that I think are necessary but I also need to carry on running the organisation and leading change in it.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I wish to address the chair of the board. Mr. Bakhurst mentioned, I think, being on the set of “Dancing with the Stars”. It brings me back to a statement I made with regard to this committee, on behalf of the taxpayer, nominating a person to the board who was not wanted by the chair of the board at the time. There was a threat to pull “Dancing with the Stars” from that person's company and the person resigned at the first meeting. A comment was made here by the former chair that there was a conflict of interest in that person being on the board, which was totally incorrect. We got correspondence from Mr. Bass since then. What is the chair’s view on whether there was a conflict of interest? Does she think there should be some people from the independent sector on the board of RTÉ going forward?

Ms Anne O'Leary

Can I take that rather than the chair?

Senator Micheál Carrigy

Yes, that is no problem.

Ms Anne O'Leary

Is that all right with the group?

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I would prefer to hear from the new chairperson of the board as well, with no disrespect to Ms O'Leary.

Ms Anne O'Leary

I will start on it. On the first day that Larry Bass came to the board - by the way, this was the largest project that had been approved by the audit and risk committee and the board - it was to give him a contract for “Dancing with the Stars”, which was for more than €2 million. Of course, he had to stand out. It is a conflict of interest; he could not be in the room. Similarly with other independents, while they were coming in and perhaps looking at a tender document, he would have had to step out and would have received redacted minutes of meetings and redacted documents because it would be unfair for him to have documents from his competitors that would show what they were proposing to RTÉ. We got advice and were told that the conflict in interest was so high in that regard that he would have to be stepping in and out of board meetings and getting redacted minutes. That was the case at the time.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I am happy to speak to that. I was chair of the board of TG4 for ten years. On that board, we had three independent producers. We had a system whereby they understood when they had to step out and it worked perfectly well. It is important for RTÉ to have representation from the independent sector and I hope that will happen gradually when new appointments come into play. One can read in our strategy about how we want to work more with the independent sector. It is very important to have that voice on the board and it is completely workable.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

That is good to hear.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Gould is replacing Deputy Chris Andrews today. Deputy Gould, the floor is yours.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I thank everyone for coming. I first have a message for all the current RTÉ workers – all those people who are not on big contracts and massive salaries who are doing the work day in and day out. They are probably very upset and have been since all these scandals broke. Many issues are coming up with funding and they are asking whether they will have a job and what their future will be in RTÉ. I expect I represent many others when I tell these workers that we appreciate the work they do and we will do everything to make sure their future, and RTÉ's future, are successful and sustainable. I wanted to lead with that point.

Rory Coveney got an exit package when he resigned. I am not sure what the procedures are but normally when people resign their role, they go out with whatever they were entitled to at that point and that would be it. Is it the procedure to give people packages when they resign? Was that a once-off or were others given similar packages?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It depends. In general terms, although I cannot go into general terms actually. It depends on the individual circumstances of the person going. Obviously we would rather not pay out public money but sometimes you need to reach an agreement for people to leave, and sometimes that is directly with them or through a mediation process. The answer is that it varies.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I get that but the question is whether people get a package when they resign. I was in the private sector for 30 years before I came here four years ago. If you left, you left.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Sometimes there is an agreed resignation.

Deputy Thomas Gould

It was an agreed resignation. An agreed resignation means you are parting on amicable terms whereas a resignation is where a person falls on their sword and leaves.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I have resigned from organisations because I have gone to other jobs. I did it just a year ago.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Would you get a package on leaving?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No, not if I am doing it for that reason. If it is finely balanced and it is best for the organisation that the person leaves and resigns, sometimes you have to find an agreement to do that. That is the reality at senior levels – or any level.

Deputy Thomas Gould

How much was paid out? What was the value of all the resignations that have happened because of the current scandals?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I cannot give the Deputy the amounts because they are subject to confidentiality agreements. I am sorry. I will give him the one I can give him.

Deputy Thomas Gould

At the end of the day, this is public money. Without going through individual cases, we are talking about €450,000 for one package. Are we talking €1 million or €2 million?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It will be in the accounts when we publish them. I cannot give the figure now because it could be worked out through a process of elimination. There are very tricky legal constraints around some of the exits. I said this before, I think, in one of the committees. It is hard when you are exiting people at a senior level. When you come in like me and want to make changes to your leadership team and exit individuals for various reasons and you are given legal advice that you cannot necessarily fire individuals, I am afraid there is a price. However, I needed to refresh the leadership team, so it was a price I had to pay.

Deputy Thomas Gould

We will go back to the price Mr. Bakhurst is talking about. He made a statement earlier that no laws were broken. Last year, 13,000 people were brought to court for non-payment of their TV licence. Those people faced €1,000 fines and all of them would have had a ruling made against them. Some of them faced the possibility of going to jail for a limited period of perhaps a few hours or whatever. In this case, we have people who received hundreds of thousands of euro. These are the same people who squandered millions of euro.

If we total up those 13,000 licence fees that were not paid, it comes to just under €2.1 million. At the same time, people left RTÉ with massive packages who had squandered €2.2 million or €2.3 million on Toy Show The Musical. People wasted millions of euro that could not be accounted for and which was not signed off and who, having listened to what we heard today, made decisions with no accountability, no transparency and no responsibility. At the same time, people who are struggling to pay their bills are being dragged through the courts. Mr. Bakhurst made the point that no laws were broken. Who said no laws were broken? Did the board go to the Garda? It was said that RTÉ got legal advice but at the same time other people were going to court. We must have accountability.

I am aware that Mr. Bakhurst is trying to manage this situation since he came in. I respect everyone for coming here today because other people have not come here today and have not come to other meetings. I know some have health reasons and I respect that but the witnesses today have come in. I respect that. The people I represent are struggling to pay bills and then they are faced with a bill for €160 or court. A person contacted me last Friday who said the television licence man had called to his house and said he would be back in three weeks, so that had better make sure they had their licence then. Yet we have people in RTÉ who went out the door with hundreds of thousands of euro. What do we say to the ordinary person out there who is watching proceedings today or who will read about this?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

All I can say to the Deputy is that it is the law currently to pay the TV licence fee. I would say to those people that I hate seeing people prosecuted for not paying their licence fee. I would rather give them the absolute reason to pay their licence fee, which is to demonstrate this is a really well-run organisation providing valued content to them. We have 1,800 fantastic people who work in the organisation day in and day out delivering to those audiences. I would much rather demonstrate that. I would much rather there was a funding system that is, ideally, progressive and fair and enables us to deliver for audiences. I am not attempting to justify, nor was I there when Breda O'Keeffe got her pay off. The anger at that is shared by almost everyone I know in RTÉ and at every level from senior to the most junior level. I agree with them that it is not appropriate. It was not appropriate then and it would not happen now. My job is to try to clean up the organisation and make sure it is run in a more transparent and more accountable way, delivers for audiences and does not get into that situation again.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Going back to the future of RTÉ and the future of public service broadcasting, yesterday Sinn Féin tabled a Private Members' motion on which we will vote tonight. We want to see sustainable public sector broadcasting for RTÉ and TG4, and right across the board, be it Virgin Media, local radio stations, Dublin stations or community stations. We want to encourage and see good public content, with honest and trustworthy programmes being developed. What we see at the moment is that the current situation is broken. The Taoiseach has said it. The Minister has said it. It is outdated and is not suitable for 2024. We have a report from the Future of Media Commission, one of the recommendations of which is that from 2024 we should look at direct funding from the Exchequer. This is what we would like to see. Mr. Bakhurst made the point earlier about tying to operate from year to year. Our proposal would see multiannual funding for four years. It would be set by Coimisiún na Meán and be an independent triple lock system where it would meet with all the people involved, gauge it and recommend funding. That funding would be passed for four years, and if a Minister decided to change that, the Minister would have come before the Dáil and explain. There are exceptional circumstances, for example, like the financial crisis and the Troika, where that might be necessary. Outside of that, this model of funding would guarantee independence of the media, guarantee the funding and allow RTÉ to plan for the future.

Perhaps Mr. Bakhurst will correct me if I am wrong, but looking at the figures for the past five years, 200,000 fewer people are paying the licence fee now than in 2018. Is that correct?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am not sure of the exact figure but it is certainly significantly down because there is evasion and non-TV households.

Deputy Thomas Gould

With society now, with people on social media, computers, devices and their phones, the TV in every house is a thing of the past. We want to see a sustainable funding model for public service broadcasting. Mr. Bakhurst said earlier it is also something he would like to see so RTÉ can do its work. If we keep going with the model we have, I worry that this year fewer people will pay the TV licence fee and RTÉ might have to come back to the Government again looking for money. With the current state of funding, is that something that could happen sometime in 2024?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

The Deputy mentioned the Future of Media Commission. One of the things it said in its report was that, until the funding is resolved, RTÉ would need extra funding year in, year out, which we had last year and for which we are very grateful. This is before we even get to the fall in TV licence sales. It is an ongoing situation. As I said earlier and I will say it again, I very much welcome the discussion that is now current and the intent there seems to be on all sides to resolve this now once and for all. Public service broadcasting has huge value to society. If you look at the countries that do not have it, you would not want to live there. To find a sustainable way that preserves the independence of RTÉ and which is fairer would be most welcome. I welcome the debate and I hope it is resolved soon because we do not like the uncertainty and it does not help the independent sector either when we are trying to plan programming for the years ahead.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I have one last question.

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy has gone over time but I will allow one last and final question.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Is Mr. Bakhurst organising meetings in the coming weeks to talk to the Minister for Finance to discuss funding for 2024? Will RTÉ have to get contingency funding before funding runs out? Is there a plan? I assume that RTÉ has done its budget for 2024-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We have.

Deputy Thomas Gould

-----on what income is coming in. Is there a gap? If there is a gap when will the Minister, the Taoiseach, the Department or the Minister for Finance know about that?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes we will have engagement with the Department and potentially with NewERA and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform about the funding gap. The committee will be aware they have pledged €40 million and we need to see how much of that RTÉ will need. We do not want to take any more taxpayer money than is necessary. If TV licence sales continue to improve as they have done, we may not need that full amount.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Bakhurst. We move on now to Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I thank the Cathaoirleach. I will start with Mr. Bakhurst because the whole rationale behind exit packages, those who receive exit packages and why they receive exit packages is obviously very interesting and I would like to delve a bit deeper into that. How did the former director general of RTÉ, Ms Dee Forbes, leave the organisation?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

She resigned.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Was there an exit package sought there?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Okay. How did Richard Collins, the former CFO, leave-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am sorry but I cannot get into individual details. There are-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

How did he leave the organisation?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I cannot get into individual details.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I can tell you he resigned. Right?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I cannot get into individual details because there is a process-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

You were able to share the circumstances around Ms O Keeffe's exit package. You even gave us the exact amount-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

She put that in the public domain herself. There are legal constraints around some of these individuals. There are also data protection-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

But this will come out eventually-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am not sure it will because-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

It is better it comes out now because this has been such a long drawn-out process, it has been like pulling teeth. The public are frankly sick of it. The sooner we know that information, the better.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am sick of it too, but I took legal advice before the previous committee hearing and we sent that to the committee, and it is available to read, about what you can and cannot divulge-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

You are not going to share with us how Mr. Collins left the organisation.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I cannot share it with you and there are legal reasons for that.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

You shared with us that Mr. Coveney resigned. You acknowledged that in here.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

There are different legal considerations by each of the individuals. I cannot go into them. This will end up with RTÉ with another big legal bill if I say too much here. Whatever the privilege around it is, there is only a certain level of protection.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

There is an upcoming investigation into the culture and governance at RTÉ. I expect more things will emerge that will shed light on more practices within RTÉ-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Are these the Government reviews?

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

The Government reviews, exactly.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We really welcome those. We have been working very closely with them.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

It is better if we are honest and upfront now because-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We have given them as much information as we can but still, for some of this, we are not into breaking the law.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

You cannot share the exit package that was agreed with Mr. Coveney.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am not into breaking the law.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Can anyone shed light on that?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No one in RTÉ.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Ms Cusack signed off on them. Can she shed light on the exit packages?

Ms Eimear Cusack

I cannot talk about an individual.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

That is disappointing because-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It disappoints me. I would love to give the details but I-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Let me finish. Under questioning from Deputy Dillon, Mr. Bakhurst initially said he could not share the details but he then changed his mind and shared them because, as Deputy Dillon quite rightly said, it is in the public interest.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

That is a very specific-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

This is all in the public interest. Mr. Collins and Mr. Coveney have been highlighted as key figures in the lack of sharing of information regarding Toy Show The Musical. Ms O'Leary said they circumvented the normal process. It is very important that we find out this information. It is disappointing that Mr. Bakhurst is not sharing it now-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am sorry to disappoint you, but I can take legal advice.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

-----and it is something that as legal issues continue-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

RTÉ is not into breaking the law, I am sorry. I cannot say that again.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I will continue with Ms Cusack and her involvement in and around the exit package for Ms O'Keeffe. Was Ms Cusack aware at the time that there was a requirement for an 80% saving around any exit packages?

Ms Eimear Cusack

Yes.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Ms Cusack was aware of that, yet the amount she signed off on was €450,000. Did it not scream alarm bells about how savings could possibly be achieved out of that?

Ms Eimear Cusack

I will go back to saying that the agreement was reached between the DG and the CFO. I was given assurances that savings would be made and-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

That €450,000 is a significant amount. As head of HR, did Ms Cusack not think, "Hold on a second guys. Are we really going to meet our 80% savings from this?".

Ms Eimear Cusack

As I said, and I admit it, in hindsight I should have pushed back harder, and I did not.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I do not think it was a case of not pushing back harder. There was a lack of basic due diligence you would expect from a director. Was Ms O'Keeffe's position filled internally or externally?

Ms Eimear Cusack

Externally.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

When a position is filled externally, does that not again scream alarm bells that say, "Guys, it is €450,000. The position is not coming from within the organisation but from outside it. How the hell will we make our 80% saving?"

Ms Eimear Cusack

As the director general said, other restructurings were going on in finance, but I cannot label those because I was not involved in any of the discussions. You can look back on it now. I came into RTÉ in 2017. You could say there was a time lapse between 2017 and 2019, when it was signed, but I took it in good faith. Maybe I should not have and-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

There should have been basic due diligence. I think it was very clear.

Ms Eimear Cusack

There should. I look back now and-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Does Ms Cusack think she is lucky to still be in the position she is in considering the lack of oversight and due diligence, and the fact she did not push back?

Ms Eimear Cusack

I think I did what I could. I could have pushed back more. It has been mooted to me that I should have gone to the board. I am saying it did not enter my head to go over the head of the director general who reported into the board, along with the CFO, who was on the board. I was told the cost savings would be achieved. Savings were made in finance, but I cannot put those-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Not the 80%.

Ms Eimear Cusack

-----because that would be speculating.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

It appears to me, and this is reminiscent of what we saw last summer, right throughout the sessions we have had, that the level of scapegoating of those who do not attend the sessions is extraordinary. It is through the roof. As I said, Ms O'Leary mentioned the fact that Mr. Coveney, Mr. Collins and the then director general, Ms Forbes, circumvented the whole process in signing off on Toy Show The Musical. I want to highlight the level of scapegoating. Ms Cusack said:

It is a fact that a separate and confidential arrangement was entered into between the former Director-General and the former CFO ... As such, I believed that this exit would be compliant with the scheme. ... I took the instruction in good faith.

In other words, Ms Cusack did not ask any questions. She is saying this is the former DG's fault and she has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Ms Eimear Cusack

No. Sorry, Deputy, I need-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I have very little time. I will refer back to 27 June, when Mr. Lynch, in his opening statement, said:

There has been much speculation regarding the awareness or involvement of members of senior RTÉ management and others in ... these arrangements. The following sets out the position: No member of the RTÉ Executive Board, other than the Director General, had all the necessary information ...

That relates to the payments to Mr. Tubridy. Is Mr. Bakhurst not concerned about the level of scapegoating going on here? It is case of it is not our fault, no one here had anything to do with it, we had no knowledge, we could not ask questions-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

A number of people have paid the price for their part in this.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

How many people have been dismissed?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

A number of people have left at a very senior level. You know that.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

No one has been dismissed. Have any warnings been issued to any-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I cannot go into the details of it, but a number of people have been exited from the organisation. I have refreshed my leadership team. I am driving change through. I need good people on my leadership team. In terms of the scapegoating, that is an extremely unfair accusation to put at us. If these individuals do not turn up here to account for themselves, but we have knowledge-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

In fairness, Ms O'Keeffe, who was thrown under the bus at one meeting, did come in and rectified her statements.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It would be great if she were here today to shed more light on this, as it would be if the former DG and former chair of the organisation were also here to shed more light on all these issues.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Do you have full confidence in Ms Cusack in terms of-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I have full confidence in her. I need her to drive the change in the organisation.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Coming back to Toy Show The Musical-----

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Sorry, Deputy. I will make one clarification regarding Mr. Coveney, Mr. Collins and Ms Forbes in terms of what Ms O'Leary said. Actually, Ms O'Leary did not mention Mr. Collins-----

Ms Anne O'Leary

At all.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

At all, which is-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Apologies.

Ms Anne O'Leary

Rather than the Deputy saying it is scapegoating, it is a fact. Grant Thornton found exactly the same.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I thought you mentioned that Mr. Collins gave you a projection.

Ms Anne O'Leary

I did not. We had a number of meetings-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Did you not say that Mr. Collins gave you a projection-----

Ms Anne O'Leary

Can I finish?

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

No, I am sorry. I want to clarify what I was referring to. Ms O'Leary said Mr. Collins gave her a projection of €300,000-----

Ms Anne O'Leary

He did.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

-----and you feel you were betrayed because of that.

Ms Anne O'Leary

The betrayal was asked about by another Deputy. The betrayal was that the sponsoring executives, Rory Coveney and Dee, did not come in front of the audit and risk committee with the full information that they should have. That is no-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Is Ms O'Leary okay with Mr. Collins's role in giving her a projection of €300,000?

Ms Anne O'Leary

Could I deal with one at a time please? It is a fact that it was said I felt betrayed. It is true that they did not bring it, but with regard to Mr. Collins, he gave us information that made us believe that in October and November of that year it was going to come in, which was wildly fanciful.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Mr. Collins did that in good faith. He expected that would be the projected profit.

Ms Anne O'Leary

He was one of the executives. He was paid to be full time. I am part time. I got just a vignette of information that I was supposed to analyse. I believed him.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I will move on. On Toy Show The Musical, in fairness, Mr. Hickey pointed out he was asking questions and was trying to seek information from Mr. Coveney. However, for members of the board who were in place at the time, or anyone who can fill in this information, when did advertising on radio and TV start for Toy Show The Musical?

Mr. David Harvey

It started in May.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Can anyone answer regarding the frequency of advertising for Toy Show The Musical? Does anyone have that data?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

It was significantly advertised from May right through to December.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Was it advertised more than other RTÉ-run events?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

The word "advertised" is not the word because it was promotional airtime. It was heavily promoted.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

That brings up a question for the board and even members of the executive who were present at the time. For me, or anybody who was in Ireland during that period, that advertising was incessant. It was daily and multiple times a day to the point where it was kind of off-putting, to be honest. At that point, did anyone scream that something was wrong here, that an extra push was being put on this event, and that there was an issue with ticket sales? Would any of the former board members like to comment on that?

Mr. Daire Hickey

We first received financial information related to Toy Show The Musical on 26 May. It had already gone on sale at that point. That was when we first understood what that was. In terms of ticket sales, I checked in after the board meeting on 26 May. We were told that ticket sales were good and were doing well. Again, in September, I wrote to Rory Coveney to ask questions around ticket sales.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

We already know that.

Mr. Daire Hickey

I was told that they were good. At all points along the way, I was told that ticket sales were very good and going very well. As Ms O'Leary said, on 27 October, we were still told-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Okay. What-----

Mr. Daire Hickey

-----that we would earn €300,000. It is important for the Deputy to realise-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

What kind of flag was there? What made you ask those questions? Were you thinking the same as me, that this was being pushed hard?

Mr. Daire Hickey

That was not what I was thinking. I have an interest as I am from the conference industry, which is adjacent to the events industry. I have some understanding of ticket sales. I engaged with Rory Coveney and gave him some advice-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

In fairness, you did.

Mr. Daire Hickey

-----on what I thought would be-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

In the opening questions, I was glad Mr. Hickey was able to stand over the fact he had asked those questions. Again, is anybody willing to answer that question? Do they feel that-----

Mr. David Harvey

What is the question?

Is it the correlation between the amount of push and the amount of sales?

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

It did not set off alarm bells to say there was something wrong and ticket sales were not-----

Mr. David Harvey

We were not being given those numbers.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Did it not prompt you to ask questions about what the projections were?

Mr. David Harvey

No.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

It did not alert anybody at all?

Mr. David Harvey

No.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

It alarmed me.

Mr. Daire Hickey

We were continuously being told that ticket sales were good and this was on track to make a profit.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

They were so good that we were pushing this ad on the radio three or four times a day every day. It was incessant.

Mr. Daire Hickey

Actually, as far as I understand it, there was not significant advertising during the summer and the advertising only ramped up again in September. That led me to ask Rory Coveney questions on 21 September. I subsequently got information back from Rory that ticket sales were good. He talked about 2,000 tickets being sold for a number of schools, for large corporate bookings. He said they were going well and he expected ticket sales to continue doing well. The next update I got was-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

There were only 72 tickets sold in July.

Mr. Daire Hickey

-----in October.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

There were 106 sold in August.

Mr. David Harvey

Yes, but there was 8,500 tickets sold in May. It was my understanding, when I asked about the ticket sales numbers during the summer, that they were starting to ramp up again in September. The next update, which I got in October, was that ticket sales were going so well that we were going to make a €300,000 profit.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

They were going so well that this as was still being pushed on TV on a daily basis. That is not your fault.

Mr. Daire Hickey

I do not think that would be unusual.

Mr. David Harvey

We would have pushed it harder if there were only 72 sold in July. I would have thought they would have ramped up the advertising, quite frankly.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

They certainly did. We could not escape it. Let us be honest.

Mr. David Harvey

The figures were tragic. The numbers sold - 72 in July - were dreadful.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I do not have much time left. I want to come back to the director general very briefly. No one seems to be taking responsibility here. Ms Cusack said she should have pushed back harder. Mr. Lynch was on the executive during Toy Show The Musical and when the exit packages were agreed, which, to be fair, he would have had very little knowledge of, but also during the Tubridy payment scandal. Is Mr. Bakhurst happy with the make-up of his transitional executive board at the moment? Does he have any questions in that regard? Would it not have been better to start afresh with a completely new membership of the executive board so that we would not be back here with the same questions being asked of the same people?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I think it would have been reckless to get rid of the whole executive. I made decisions on the individual members of the then executive on the basis of what I had seen and heard, what I read in the reports, what their actions were and how I see them doing their job day to day. I am here today with Adrian and Eimear who are absolutely core to driving the change in this organisation. I will say in their defence that the executive was very dysfunctional. Decisions were taken by one or two members excluding the rest of them. This is one of the things I have tried to address. All the big decisions now come to the leadership team. Whether it is about commissioning programmes like "Dancing with the Stars", presenter salaries, strategy or whatever else, all the big decisions now come to the full leadership team for discussion and there are new processes in place to make sure that the really important ones go to the board as well.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I genuinely wish Mr. Bakhurst the best of luck. I hope it works and roots out that culture.

On the freeze that was introduced in September, have any staff been taken on since September?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes. It was a recruitment freeze. I always made it clear that we would take on people if there was an acute need for the organisation or for coverage. We have taken on a small number but the headcount is significantly lower and we have saved millions of euro.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Since Robert Shortt has taken on the position of company secretary, that has obviously left a vacancy within the newsroom. I understand there is no arts and media correspondent and no economics correspondent.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

They were interviewing for that yesterday.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Okay. It is really important those positions are filled.

We have heard from the executive board and the board. We have not heard from RTÉ staff or representatives. I ask that we hear from the NUJ, SIPTU or whoever it is. The staff are the one group which has been left out of this discussion since the debacle started at the start of the summer. It is important that we invite them in for a session.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Can I just talk about the staff for one minute, Chair?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I will keep it short. I have said before that the staff have carried the organisation through this. I have committed to them to make RTÉ a much better place to work. We are having monthly town hall meetings. We have a new staff engagement group. The staff themselves came up with the terms of reference for that staff engagement group, so they are fully engaged in trying to rebuild the organisation. I welcome that and thank them for it.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I understand the communication between Mr. Bakhurst and the staff has improved massively as well.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy O'Sullivan and all my colleagues. I will contribute next and two Members, who are not members of the committee, will contribute for a couple of minutes at the end. I appreciate we have been meeting now for more than three hours. If the witnesses can bear with us, hopefully we will-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We will delay our taxis, Chair. That is fine.

An Cathaoirleach

-----bring this to a conclusion today.

We have received apologies from a large number of people but Mr. Bakhurst and his colleagues have been very agreeable and forthcoming with information. I appeal to Ms Forbes, if she is watching, to please make herself available to this committee at some point. We do not want to go down the road of compelling but we may be left with no option. There is a particular crisis in RTÉ. As regards this committee doing work on the future funding of the organisation, while RTÉ wants to have that conversation, we really cannot do so. It is unfair to ask that of the Minister and the Government without this work being completed. That is my honest view of the matter. I appeal to Ms Forbes and Ms Doherty, if she is listening in, and Mr. Coveney not to put the committee in the position of compelling. When it comes to our deliberations on both the reports, their input is critical. I ask them to make themselves available when they are fit, ready and able to do so.

I will continue with some of the lines of inquiry pursued by my colleagues. I will begin with Mr. Lynch. I was one of the people last January because I attended Toy Show The Musical. I am not saying I definitely asked Mr. Lynch but I definitely asked Mr. Coveney and the answer I received was an obvious push-back - that this was commercially sensitive information and we cannot go there. Mr. Lynch sat through that meeting and there was an opportunity. I am reliably informed that I asked the question in June. I had concerns and coming from an arts background, it was pretty obvious to anybody who attended that there was a real problem and issue. It is upsetting for all of the witnesses and members of the committee to read the Grant Thornton report, which clearly shows that board members were not given information. I would go as far as saying they were deceived about the whole thing. Others are jumping up and down and asking for the heads of some of the board members who had no information. They were given information on sponsorship and commercial aspects that was intended to deceive the board members in place at the time about the real picture around Toy Show The Musical.

I will begin with the board members who have not had an opportunity to speak and were bystanders, not by choice but because they did not have the information. I only have ten minutes and I want to make sure everyone has an opportunity. What are their thoughts? I will begin with Dr. Matthews. How does he feel today as he sits here?

Dr. P.J. Mathews

This is not a good place for us to be as a board.

An Cathaoirleach

Does he agree with the notion that the board was deceived?

Dr. P.J. Mathews

Absolutely. Personally I had no information or details of the project before then.

An Cathaoirleach

Would it be fair to say the board was deceived by the chair and director general. It was their job to give the board that information. I do not know where else its members would go to ask for that information. Would it be fair to say they deceived you?

Dr. P.J. Mathews

I definitely did not have any information on the project before tickets went on sale.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you. What are Ms O'Leary's thoughts?

Ms Anne O'Leary

I feel that there was an element of deception. They deliberately kept it away from the rigorous interrogation of the audit and risk committee.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. I am not sure if Ms Ahern was there for any of this but what are her thoughts on it today?

Ms Susan Ahern

I first became aware at the May board meeting. That was when the figures were presented to us. I concur that there was a lack of transparency and that-----

An Cathaoirleach

It was deceit in the worst way possible.

Ms Susan Ahern

-----made it impossible for us to do the job we were supposed to do as executive board members.

An Cathaoirleach

Mr. Harvey.

Mr. David Harvey

All the decisions were made behind closed doors.

An Cathaoirleach

That is correct. There was an inner circle and the board was not given the information to do its job.

Mr. David Harvey

No. There is very little an ordinary board member can do when normal approval procedures are circumvented, and that is exactly what happened. It is a fact and that was endemic in the organisation. I can say as well that the jaw-dropping moment of Breda O'Keeffe and the next jaw-dropping moment today I find incredible. It is an extraordinarily depressing experience when you volunteer to try to do some good and you have looked for this appointment and to be frustrated at every turn. It is very depressing. However, I can say with a great degree of confidence that the huge amount of work that has been done in the last nine months is turning the organisation around.

An Cathaoirleach

I am very mindful that the board members who sat on the board waived their fees because the financial crisis in RTÉ was so dire.

Mr. David Harvey

We did not expect to be opened to all of this. I expected the organisation to function somewhat normally.

It is all leadership, from the top. It has nothing to do with people working in the organisation. The tone is set at the top, and the tone was wrong.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Harvey and call Mr. Hickey.

Mr. Daire Hickey

I would just clarify that we have waived our fees. Everything that has happened and that we talked about here today is incredibly regrettable. We are all here as board members because we really care about the future of public service broadcasting.

An Cathaoirleach

Were you deceived?

Mr. Daire Hickey

I certainly think that information was withheld from me. I asked a lot of questions and information was not forthcoming. There was an opportunity to flag that the toy show musical was not doing well. I was not given that information when I asked those questions. An awful lot has been done. Mr. Bakhurst has changed the culture and has been very helpful to this board. Many of the things that happened simply cannot happen anymore. The way in which information percolates through the organisation is very different. We get and receive the executive minutes ahead of time, ahead of board meetings, so that we can see many of the issues-----

An Cathaoirleach

That is just normal, Mr. Hickey. That is just normal.

Mr. Daire Hickey

Yes, but we did not receive those things before. It is the same with the way that the board committees work. There is much more information available to us to raise issues-----

An Cathaoirleach

So you are being enabled to do the job you have been asked to do.

Mr. David Harvey

The institutional arrogance is gone.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Ms Howard.

Ms Aideen Howard

I joined the board after most of these events transpired, on 29 November 2022.

An Cathaoirleach

Lucky you.

Ms Aideen Howard

The first board meeting I attended was on 14 December, which was I believe the same day that this musical officially opened. My experience therefore of this has been informed by reading the Grant Thornton 3 report as well as discussions with my colleagues. In the past six, seven or eight months it has been apparent that this is a reforming board, and that the activity of the board is now clearly focused on refining, improving and redefining both the governance, by which I mean the metrics and the protocols by which our business is done, and the culture of the organisation. As my colleagues have mentioned, we are working very responsively to the expert advisory committees engaged by the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, and we will be awaiting their recommendations and responding to them when they come.

An Cathaoirleach

Mr. Ruane is online. I appreciate his sitting through three hours without getting to say one thing, so the floor is his.

Mr. Jonathan Ruane

My colleagues have said enough in terms of the debacle being focused on today. The one thing I would like to add relates to the importance, looking forward, of resolving the funding. We are entering into an election cycle in Ireland. The RTÉ News app is the number one used app in the country, but it is ten years old. RTÉ does not have the resources to invest in really important digital infrastructure. At our last board meeting, within the last fortnight, we heard about buildings that are literally crumbling. Getting this funding in place, backing Mr. Bakhurst and the team, and enabling RTÉ to move on from these difficult situations, is what I, like most other board members are, am focused on.

An Cathaoirleach

I will come to Ms Ní Raghallaigh with a question that may or may not be for her. It relates to the top ten earners. I am always struck by the real focus on the presenters - the faces who are known. We may have spoken about this throughout other hearings. Has consideration been given to the idea of the top ten earners across the board, not just focusing on the top ten presenters? I am mindful of the fact that he approach up to now has left people out who were earning more than the top ten presenters, arguably.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

We have made commitments in that respect. This is the last year that the top ten earners will be a separate piece of information that goes out. Everything will be incorporated into the annual report from here on. There is a commitment in relation to the publishing of top earners in RTÉ. Mr. Bakhurst might like to say a bit more.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It is only right that it should not just be the top ten presenters. The salaries of the leadership team should be published as well.

An Cathaoirleach

The salaries of everyone should be published.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We have committed to do that.

An Cathaoirleach

Can Ms Ní Raghallaigh confirm and commit to this Oireachtas committee that the board will be run in such a way that there will be no combo meetings, no out-of-the-room side meetings or inner-circle meetings? That is really important in restoring public confidence and for the staff in RTÉ also.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

That is the way I run the board, as chair. I have a great team on the board. We bring our skill sets to the relevant areas of the organisation and the relevant subcommittees. That operates very well. We have made many changes over the past several months and the relationship with Mr. Bakhurst and his team is a healthy one. The dysfunction at the top is now gone. I hope that will gradually filter down. All board members are committed to public service broadcasting. We are here for that reason. I hope that, in the next number of years, we can see a stable public service media in this country that is funded in a way that means we can deliver on the obligations in the Broadcasting Act as public service media.

An Cathaoirleach

My last question is for Ms Cusack and Mr. Bakhurst. I am mindful that there are members of staff of RTÉ watching on because I have met with some of them. They were just a sample of the 700 staff alluded to earlier. As it happened, 60% of the sample I met were women. They were deeply distraught. It was quite difficult to listen to them, but I did listen. If I had longer on the day, I would have taken more time with them. Women who have been working in the organisation for decades - women who were on these bogus contracts - were forced, in the language they would use, to be self-employed rather than be employees. The saddest piece of all is the women who are sitting at home today with no pension and the women in the organisation today who are coming close to retirement age who will have no pension. I appreciate that, as was said to me, Mr. Bakhurst had town hall meetings to address these issues. Those who are listening in today and every other day are hearing about executive packages. In my colleagues' view, some of them should have been sacked rather than going off with golden handshakes as they have done. I understand there are legal reasons around it and all the rest but that is the reality. Will you speak to that a little bit?

Ms Eimear Cusack

The issues the Cathaoirleach is describing now have been in RTÉ for years and years.

An Cathaoirleach

I accept that but-----

Ms Eimear Cusack

It is really important. When I started the programme to address those issues, it became and has become one of the most complex pieces of work myself and my team have ever undertaken. I did not realise at the time the extent of the issues. I have shared extensively with Mr. Bakhurst since he arrived. Morally, I feel very strongly about the people in RTÉ. I feel strongly that we need to get the organisation to a place where it is a level playing pitch. This is not an answer people want to hear but I have to say the truth. One of the issues is that when we were trying to address this, we did it through a collective agreement to which the majority of people signed up. I cannot sit here and say to you - hand on heart - that I will go back and look at all of this again because that would be unfair to the people who signed up. We said that was what was agreed between the facilitators and ourselves. I understand exactly what the Cathaoirleach is saying. I fully accept - because I have heard it myself - that people are unhappy. I am slightly at a loss because we took on a big rock. We have tried to create something. We tried to compensate people in a way that was done with facilitators, through a collective agreement. These things cannot be unravelled.

An Cathaoirleach

Is it unfair of me to say that the information I am being given is about people being told they have to take a legal route if they disagree?

Ms Eimear Cusack

No.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Can I come in on that? As Ms Cusack said, more than 80% of the people agreed to the Eversheds outcome. A small number, around ten, in the organisation have not agreed. I have seen not all of them but I have probably seen seven or eight of them individually or in a small group. I have heard their individual stories. It is fair to say I have spent a long time talking to Ms Cusack and trying to get legal advice about whether there is anything we can do for those individuals.

When you hear their individual stories, I feel they have been badly treated by the organisation. They have ended up in the positions described. The issue is very much as Ms Cusack described it. It is a really tough one, which is that there is a collective agreement that was agreed with the unions. There was a process and mediation and the clear advice is that 80% of people agreed to that. If you start unpicking it with one, two or three people, the whole thing will unravel, you have to go back and do the whole thing again and the entire agreement falls. It is bad faith because you told everyone this was the deal and so on. I have spoken to Ms Cusack many times about what we could possibly do to resolve this. I have a sense of justice and fairness, particularly concerning some of the women described. I told them at one point exactly what I said here in the committee because I looked into it, they came back and we had another meeting. I said, "This is the issue". I said to them at that meeting that if they wanted to go to the WRC or down a legal route, the organisation would not hold that against them because, as far as I can see, that may be the only way they can get another way of redressing this. It is not about us trying to force them into that, it is about saying, "I cannot really do anything. My hands are tied. I would love to do something. If that is the route you want to take, the organisation will not hold it against you. Let us see what the WRC decides and then there may be a basis for doing something". I think that is how that has happened. That is the frank account of it.

Ms Eimear Cusack

It is, has been and will continue for a wee while longer to be a very difficult path. I have not experienced that level of unhappiness about how people have been contracted and so on in any other organisation I have worked with. All I can say to the committee is that, hand on heart, we are trying to fix it and trying very hard.

An Cathaoirleach

I accept Ms Cusack's bona fides on that. That concludes my questions. Our colleague Senator Dooley has sat patiently.

Senator Timmy Dooley

I thank everybody for the presentation. It is no harm every now and again to remind ourselves, notwithstanding how drastically wrong things went at RTÉ and what a catastrophe it has been, that nobody personally benefited. People made decisions for whatever reason. As many of the main actors are not here, it is hard to get to the motivation but nobody benefited personally from it. People made decisions. It is helpful to remind ourselves of that. I think I knew based on the many friends I have had in RTÉ over the years is that through successive administrations, it has been poorly run. Up to recently, it was a very poorly run organisation. As a result, certain practices and customs built up over time. Mr. Lynch referred to it as the silo approach. People did not want to speak out because nobody spoke out; it was top-down and bottom-up. That has permeated through the organisation. It may be why we are in the situation we are in.

I am more interested in finding out where RTÉ is going. We all know where it has come from. We can fight over what is left on the carcass and make all sorts of wild allegations that will get a 30-second sound bite if that is what we want. That is not going to do anything for public service broadcasting, which I hold very dear and want to see progressed. I want to understand how the culture has changed. I am sure it is not where it needs to be yet. What is being put in place to try to address that? How does it permeate through the organisation? I hear from friends who work in the organisation that it has cascaded down through it. Some people work extraordinarily hard at management level and in the general staff, but there are people who swing the lead and leave the work to others. What kind of systems are in place?

On the future of the organisation, a great deal is linked to what RTÉ's funding envelope will be. Will Mr. Bakhurst remind us again of what is the core of what is left of public service broadcasting? A point occurred to me as Mr. Bakhurst was speaking. He mentioned that there were perhaps ten people in respect of whom there may be some tax implications. That matter is being worked through with Revenue, as should be the case. Have those ten people been apprised of the fact that their exits may be the subject of some tax issues? I know RTÉ will carry the responsibility and the burden. Will the witnesses comment on those questions? I then have one little clip afterwards, if I can.

Deputy Alan Dillon took the Chair.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I thank the Senator. The change we are driving and have driven, first of all, is to make clear the values of the organisation, that we want to be transparent, that we want to drive value for money, that we expect people to behave in a transparent and straightforward way and that we do not tolerate bad behaviour. I think there have been a few instances in which we have dealt with that. We are investing in staff. There is a significant learning and development programme for staff. Plans are in the strategy to put even more money into that. We are communicating much better with staff. We have just started that, but, from the top down, I think it has started to happen much more. It is not just the town halls, staff forum and new manager forum, it is about being available, going around the organisation and having open access. So far in the job, I have never refused anyone to come and see me so that if they have an issue, they can raise it directly. That is a valuable way of hearing what is going on in the organisation as well.

It is also about talking to people about how we need to modernise the organisation and ways of working. The Senator is right. The vast majority of people at RTÉ work very hard and deliver fantastic content and programmes for audiences. There are, undoubtedly, some who do not. The majority of management at RTÉ is very good but are they all? No, they are not. We need to invest in management as well. I was shocked when I came in that HR did not have an IT system. The HR team spent a lot of its time going through filing cabinets. We need to invest in that. Any modern organisation which can set performance targets and give appraisals and so on needs that infrastructure. It is a process. It will not happen overnight, as the Senator said. It is in place. Fundamentally, I hope there is a culture of respect.

Senator Timmy Dooley

My colleague Senator Warfield spoke about the funding model and he threw around certain accusations against the Government. That is fair enough. That is the politics of it. The model I have long-believed is the way forward is a household charge. I shared that in a paper we devised a number of years ago and that it should be collected by Revenue. I have a concern at the notion of it coming from central funding because, regardless of the independent model - I think Deputy Gould referred to certain exceptional circumstances. While Senator Warfield is not here, it will be on the record and he will have an opportunity to talk to me about it again. My concern is that if RTÉ was dependent on Deputy Doherty as Minister for Finance providing funding on a multi-annual basis at the same time as his leader, Deputy McDonald, is suing RTÉ, I believe that would put a chilling effect on everyone in RTÉ. I do not expect Mr. Bakhurst to comment. That would put a chilling effect on every member of staff in RTÉ if that was the model. I have always believed in the independent structure. As a society, if we value public service broadcasting, we must pay for it and be seen to pay for it. There has been an effort to conflate the failure of water charges with the continuation of the licence fee. That is a spurious argument, quite frankly. People have been paying a licence fee forever. The issue with water charges was entirely separate - they had not. People did not know what the sum of money would be required every year because there was no history of it. They did not know what their annual payment might be. It is clear in the licence fee. The notion that somehow you would give a sort of blanket amnesty is actually aimed at undermining the continued payment of the licence fee. That may suit a certain political agenda to bring control into the political realm and, thereby, have the capacity to control RTÉ. That is the last thing anyone involved in any element of politics should want because RTÉ's capacity to hold authority to account has stood this democracy well. The model going forward has to give due recognition to that.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I wish to address this question to Ms Cusack. Earlier, she described signing off on an exit package worth €450,000 of public money for Breda O'Keeffe as an administrative oversight.

Four hours later, do you wish to change those words?

Ms Eimear Cusack

No. I was not referring to the signing off of the package as an administrative oversight. I was referring to the top part of the letter, which was a standard letter, that was not changed.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Do you believe that is credible though, given it was €450,000? It is not every day that you would do that, that you would not have read the letter but then would have signed it.

Ms Eimear Cusack

Honestly, I can only tell the Deputy the truth. It was a standard letter. I did not register the top of it. I looked at the figures and I signed the letter.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

This was €450,000 and you signed that letter knowing it had not been approved by the board. You did it anyway.

Ms Eimear Cusack

I knew it had not been approved by the executive board because-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Again, this was €450,000. Have you ever signed any other letters signing off on €450,000?

Ms Eimear Cusack

No.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Do you think your position is credible, to be honest?

Ms Eimear Cusack

I do.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I mean-----

Ms Eimear Cusack

I do because, as I have said before, I was across 203 exits from the organisation-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

This was €450,000.

Ms Eimear Cusack

No, but let-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Some people could only dream of that kind of money. It is lottery-type money.

Ms Eimear Cusack

I know that. I absolutely know that. What I am saying is that the decision was taken by the director general with the CFO. She was my line manager and I am not shirking the responsibility for the things I am responsible for-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

You described this as an "administrative oversight" to an Oireachtas committee. I think that is being very flippant with language.

Ms Eimear Cusack

No, I am not debasing-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I think the Deputy is being unfair to Eimear-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Excuse me. I am sorry, Chair-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Sorry, Deputy, it is not fair.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Sorry. I am questioning a witness here, if I may be allowed to continue, please. Ms Cusack described this as being an "administrative oversight" to an Oireachtas committee four hours ago.

Ms Eimear Cusack

No, I am not debasing the fact that the financial officer got €450,000. That is not what I am referring to.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Okay.

Ms Eimear Cusack

What I am referring to, and I will be very clear, is that a decision was taken before the scheme closed between the director general and the CFO, one of whom reported into the board and one of whom attended the board. I was given the assurances that the savings would be made and to implement. I have said, and I have been very honest, that in hindsight I should have pushed back further on the decision.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Can RTÉ workers, people who are currently struggling to get their time spent and miscategorised as self-employed workers in the organisation rectified and regularised, have confidence in you to deal with their situations fairly given what has emerged here today?

Ms Eimear Cusack

I honestly believe they can because I was the first person to tackle it and I-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Can they have confidence in you when you continued to muddy the water-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Let the witness answer the question.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

-----when you referred to the 80 people within the remit of Eversheds report, when we are really talking about lots of people who were outside of that? Why do you continue to muddy the waters?

Ms Eimear Cusack

No. I need again to be very clear. I am not muddying the waters. I am saying that the people who have been dealt with through the Eversheds process were people who were working in regular jobs within RTÉ. The majority of others who are providing services are either contributing to programmes - the scope section may have a different idea as to what their insurability is - or they are presenting on air. We are working through those cases.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

You are sending some people down the legal route, that is, the Arthur Cox route. These people go back to the 1980s. You know you are doing that and the board needs to know this is happening and that this is not acceptable. This cannot continue. These are workers. These are some of the people behind the scenes and not the celebrities, mostly. These are the people behind the scenes who are designing sets, doing digital design and all of this stuff and who have brought us our favourite programmes, including our news and sports, over the years, and they are being treated like complete dirt.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

If I can ask one last question-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

This is the last question.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Is it not normal practice in employment law that when a package such as that is being finalised, there is agreement that the organisation will not be sued subsequently and that any tax liabilities arising would be paid for by the person in receipt of the package? Was this the case for Breda O'Keeffe or will RTÉ and the taxpayer have to pick up any subsequent liabilities?

Ms Eimear Cusack

As I said before, all of the letters have the very same information in them, in that the strategy, or any strategy that may apply, was built into the overall formula. In 2017, role suppression was only one way of exiting or of someone getting an exit and because of this then, in a small number of cases, including some who were replaced and some who were-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Who will pick up the legal bill now? Who will pick up the tax bill?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am sorry, Deputy, this is your last question. To finish up, I call Ms Cusack.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Who will pick the tax bill? Will it be the State, RTÉ or Breda O'Keeffe herself, for example?

Ms Eimear Cusack

I believe it will be on RTÉ.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

One last thing-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

No, Deputy, we are way over time.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I tried to get this answer earlier from the director general.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Deputy Griffin, we are way over time.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Has an estimated figure been received by the director general, in the context of a situation where all those people who were previously categorised as self-employed workers and who are now RTÉ workers, all of those with cases outside of Eversheds and whose situations I raised here in the committee last week, of what the cost would be to retrospectively compensate these workers for their benefits, including maternity, holidays and all of that? Has an estimated figure in this regard been received? This is outside the PRSI situation for the State. I am talking about what is owed to the workers themselves.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We are looking at them. As I said, they are all individual cases. The liability on the others, and I am not sure what term the Deputy used, outside scope, is very limited because most of these people were historical workers.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

There could be people who were positive in a scope context, right, but who were outside of Eversheds. You know who these people are-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We are way over time.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am sorry. Can I just be really clear on this?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Please let Mr. Bakhurst reply.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I looked for this figure earlier and I did not get it.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

To be really clear on this, since Ms Cusack joined the organisation, she has done more to regularise the workers classed-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I did not ask that. I asked did you get a figure-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No, I am sorry. This is-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I asked a simple question.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I just need to-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I asked a simple question. Did you get an estimated figure to regularise-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Am I going to be allowed to speak at all or am I not?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Allow Mr. Bakhurst to answer the question.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Thank you. Since Ms Cusack joined this organisation, she has done more to regularise the workforce at RTÉ. As I explained in some detail earlier on, the number of people who went through the Eversheds process were the ones who are currently working in the organisation and who have substantial rights. They have been regularised and given permanent employment rights. RTÉ is now in a position that anyone who comes to join us has employment rights. With very few exceptions, this is the normal practice. The numbers who are outstanding here include many who are historical. Many are contractors who did the odd day or week here or there. The liability, therefore, is quite limited. It is nowhere near the figures I have heard quoted by the Deputy or others.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Have you been given an estimated figure?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am sorry, Deputy, we will move on.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I am sorry. Have you been given an estimated figure?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am sorry, Deputy. I call Senator Martin Conway.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

It is a simple question.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I have answered the simple question. It is not a simple question; it is a complicated question.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Have you been given an estimated figure?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No, I have not-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Thank you.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

-----because it is not possible. As I explained, these are individuals. It is not possible to get-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

It is a yes-no question.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I call Senator Conway.

Senator Martin Conway

I will say one thing to Mr. Bakhurst. Since he has taken over, I have been quite impressed by his candour, his straight talking and the fact that he does go on media and explain. I think this is important. Accountability going forward is extremely important.

I have two specific questions. I will ask one question first and then I will have another one. Where are we with the sale of Montrose? Is that still on the table? Has RTÉ got a valuation for it? Is there a short- to medium-term plan to sell all or part of Montrose?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

First, I thank the Senator for his comments. I appreciate them. On the question concerning where we are with Montrose, the plan and the strategy is that we will stay on the site there and shrink back on it. We have a valuation of the site. As I said, it was rather disappointing because we have a number of listed buildings on the site. Frankly, I have spoken to one or two developers and they told me that even if we were to put it on the market at that level, they were not sure there was the appetite given where the Dublin office market is now for anyone to buy the site. The intention, then, is to stay on the site and to shrink back.

Senator Martin Conway

Moving from Montrose, then, is off the table?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It is off the table now unless circumstances change.

Senator Martin Conway

From your engagement with valuers, etc., is there any portion of the site on the table that could be sold?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes. The idea is that we will shrink back to part of the site. We will then look at what the options are for around nine acres of the site to see if we should sell it or, frankly, if there is a better use for it for the State.

Senator Martin Conway

Sure. When is it proposed to put that on the market?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am not sure if it will go on the market. We need to have discussions with the Government about if we shrink back. All I can say is the plan for the site is very complicated. As part of the strategy, it will probably take between five and eight years to implement it. This is because we need to move people around, move the newsroom, etc. It is not straightforward.

Deputy Niamh Smyth resumed the Chair.

Senator Martin Conway

That is grand. My second question is surrounding the new contract and the gentleman who has taken over the 9 a.m. radio slot. If my memory serves me correctly, the deal that had been done with Ryan Tubridy was that he would do the 9 a.m. slot and a podcast. How come there is no podcast as part of Oliver Callan's arrangement with RTÉ?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We did not want it at this stage. We are developing our podcast strategy for later in the year. We are investing in the audio app. It may well be that we will go back to Oliver. Given his other commitments, including "Callan's Kicks", and outside the organisation, I am not sure-----

Senator Martin Conway

Absolutely. I am coming to that. I very much admired your stance that no one will earn more than the director general. Mr. Callan himself informed the nation that he is getting €150,000 on a two-year contract. What we do not know, and I think we need to know, is if RTÉ has entered negotiations with him in terms of "Callan's Kicks". I ask this because my understanding is that this is a separate company. If so, what kind of money are we talking about? Will that bring his combined earnings from RTÉ over the salary of the director general?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We are in contract on that. It is for an independent production company, and a number of other people work on that production. We did look at that and the answer is that we understand it will still be within the director general's salary.

Senator Martin Conway

Can Mr. Bakhurst give us a figure as to what the "Callan's Kicks" element of the work Oliver Callan is doing with RTÉ-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am afraid I cannot because it is practice with independent production companies that we do not ask them to publicise the amount the talent gets from-----

Senator Martin Conway

Sure, but I will put it like this to Mr. Bakhurst. The presenters are contractors as well, and their figures are disclosed. I do not see the difference between a presenter's contract and the production company that produces "Callan's Kicks". It is funding the same people. Oliver Callan, clearly, is benefiting significantly from the contract his production company has with RTÉ for "Callan's Kicks". RTÉ is starting a new page with a new presenter. We need full clarity on what the production company producing "Callan's Kicks" is being paid by RTÉ.

An Cathaoirleach

That is your very final contribution, Senator.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I think this is problematic because we do a lot of deals with independent production companies and-----

Senator Martin Conway

Finally, Chairperson, perhaps Mr. Callan might make the information available himself because we have started a new page and done so very well. This has been brought to my attention by a couple of people, and I committed to raising it here today. Clarity is needed in the interest of openness and transparency.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you, Senator Conway. I know that Senator Malcolm Byrne and Deputy Dillon have one quick question each. Go for it, Senator Byrne.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

There is just one issue I want to come back to with regard to ticket sales for Toy Show The Musical, which was referred to in the Grant Thornton report. I refer to the findings on page 11. Ticket sales, obviously, depend partly on how many need to be sold to break even. My one concern about this - and it relates to what the board was informed about and, indeed, what the executive board was informed about - is that there was conflict. It seemed in early March that there would be 44 shows; on 29 March, my understanding is that the board was told there would be 54 shows; but the evidence is that there were never more than 35 shows on sale to the public. The question arises as to when it was known how many shows there were to be. Obviously, the number of ticket sales depends on that.

Mr. Daire Hickey

When I inquired about that at various points, I think it was that the release of shows would happen slowly so as to encourage people into one particular show, and as those built up more would come through and a certain number of shows would be booked out specifically for corporates.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

So the venue was clearly booked for a particular period-----

Mr. Daire Hickey

Yes, for a four-week period.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I do not know if Mr. Lynch is able to fill us in from the executive board.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

What was approved at the executive board was 44 shows, with ticket sales of 80% required to break even. My understanding is that the venue was subsequently booked for the entire 54 shows. They were then running, I think, 44 before Christmas. They opened the show on the Wednesday. By the Saturday, they had to close the show because of Covid. They had to cancel three full houses and then they tried to reboot the show after that. At that point demand for the tickets - I do not think Covid is an excuse - was low anyway, so they canned all the shows after Christmas.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I might finally-----

An Cathaoirleach

Very finally, Senator, and then I will come to-----

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Very finally. I suggest making the rights to Toy Show The Musical available to amateur societies around the country. You might find that they might make more money from it.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I do not think we will be using them.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Well, I encourage you to make them available. We have had a very long session, and a number of the guests here have come before our committee on a number of occasions. I sincerely thank them because they have been candid and honest and have admitted where things have gone wrong. It is critical that we have a well-functioning RTÉ and that we have good public service broadcasting and good, challenging, independent, fair journalism in this country.

An Cathaoirleach

Is there a question, Senator Byrne, quickly?

Senator Malcolm Byrne

No. This is a point that is really important to make. We have been discussing these issues at this committee. I hope that the next time RTÉ comes before us, we talk about some of these broader issues and have that debate and that we have much interest, including from Members of these Houses, when those discussions happen.

An Cathaoirleach

No question, just-----

Senator Malcolm Byrne

A statement.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. I call Deputy Dillon.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I will be brief, Chair. Thank you for allowing me back in. My question is directed to Ms O'Leary, as chair of the audit and risk committee. She attended meetings on the Toy Show The Musical production as far back as March 2022. Is that correct?

Ms Anne O'Leary

That is correct.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Why, then, did Toy Show The Musical not appear on the minutes of the audit and risk committee agenda until October 2022, in an indirect manner?

Ms Anne O'Leary

I was constantly looking for additional information and looking to see when I was going to get the financial information. Perhaps I should have put it on the agenda and said, "I have asked for this information and I have not got it." It would not have been something to discuss, however, and that is normally what we do at audit and risk. There is a paper we go through. I was coming back just saying, "I still have no information", but I was asking for the information and I was not getting it. The committee needs to understand-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

There is a real inconsistency

Ms Anne O'Leary

-----that on 1 March the executives, who had seen the finance and risk, said it should go to the audit and risk committee, and it never did.

Deputy Alan Dillon

But does Ms O'Leary think there is an inconsistency here as to how she acted in this instance versus how she acted as regards the irregular payments when dealing with Ryan Tubridy, at a time when she was expected to flag these issues with board members but it never actually reached the board, even though she was attending meetings and looking for information? I think-----

Ms Anne O'Leary

In hindsight, I should probably have put it on the audit and risk agenda; however, I was constantly going upwards to the executive, to Rory Coveney, Dee and Moya, looking for the information and I was not getting it. Perhaps I should have put it on the agenda to say, "The report is that I am looking for this information and I am not getting it." Certainly, however, the rest of the committee would have known that. It would have been said during discussions. I take the Deputy's point, however.

Deputy Alan Dillon

It is a real, significant point and it is not something that committee members can in one way disregard. When you think about confidence in the board in terms of doing its duties and being accountable, I think this justifies a sequence of events where we had lapses in control-----

Ms Anne O'Leary

To be fair, we cannot analyse something we have not been given. We are used to the five or six specific paragraphs for a project before approval is sought. Even in the invitation to come to see the combo meeting, it was "We want to take you through a project that we have been working on for two years and that we are about to announce publicly, and it is really important for RTÉ's creativity and commerce". Where is the impression that they were looking for any kind of approval or permission or anything else? They were presenting a fait accompli and there is nothing else I could have done about that.

Deputy Alan Dillon

In terms of sitting at the table, though, in one sense allowing this to be given to the green light, does Ms O'Leary not-----

Ms Anne O'Leary

I certainly did not allow it to be given the green light. They did not look for approval, they certainly were not given approval by the audit and risk committee and it was never approved by the board. It was never discussed or approved by the board. That is not the case.

An Cathaoirleach

We will conclude there. Ladies and gentlemen, I thank you most sincerely for coming before us today and for your forbearance. We have gone a little over the time, let us say, but we do appreciate it. We have had two really important reports to discuss and it has been useful to us to try to bring clarity for us as a committee. We have a report to do, we have a responsibility to the public, to the Minister and to the Government to try to tease these issues out, and this is the right place to do it. I accept the bona fides of the chair and the director general that things are different and that they will be different.

I will finish on this. I make one last appeal to Ms Forbes, Ms Doherty and Mr. Coveney to make themselves available to us so we can actually conclude these deliberations.

That concludes our business for today. The meeting of the joint committee stands adjourned. Our next meeting in private session is at 1.30 on Wednesday, 21 February, in committee room 1. Go raibh míle maith agaibh, gach duine.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 28 February 2024.