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JOINT COMMITTEE ON TOURISM, CULTURE, SPORT, COMMUNITY, EQUALITY AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 30 Jun 2010

Family Carers: Discussion with Carers Association

I welcome Mr. Enda Egan, chief executive officer, Mr. Frank Goodwin, chair, Ms Clare Duffy, social policy officer, the Carers Association, and Mr. Frank Lahiffe, an advocacy consultant.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside of the House nor an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members of the committee have absolute privilege. However, I remind them of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that Members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I wish to make a few comments before asking the delegation to make its opening contribution. I want to begin by stating that the Irish State owes a great debt to carers, from an economic and social perspective. Economically it has been estimated that carers save the State approximately €3 billion per annum. Their social contribution is not quantifiable except to say that they are one of the clear manifestations of a caring society. They care for and protect the most vulnerable in our society, children, older citizens, people with disabilities, people with mental illnesses and those living with chronic conditions. However, we often forget that carers need to be cared for too. They are often unable to take up paid employment and so rely on us for economic support. They are often on-call seven days a week, 24 hours a day, but we forget that they need respite too. They are often, due to the responsibilities they have voluntarily shouldered, marginalised and excluded from the normal day-to-day activities that take place in every community and we forget that they need interaction too. As a society we need to look at all these areas, be flexible in our approach and look at the number of hours carers can engage in paid employment without losing their carer's allowances, benefits and grants. We need to look at how we can assist carers in their tasks and how we can facilitate them in not missing out on the normal interactions and participation in society that everybody enjoys.

We are very anxious to hear from the delegates. This is a very important meeting for us; effectively, this is what this committee is about. We are very active across a wide range of issues. This gives a chance to people like the Carers Association to give its assessment of the position on its areas of activity. The work of carers is central to our society and we welcome their delegates.

Mr. Enda Egan

I thank the Chairman and the committee members most sincerely for giving us the opportunity to come to the committee and voice views on behalf of Ireland's 160,000 family carers. This committee obviously spans a very wide brief just as the issues affecting carers span a wide number of Departments, and so forth. Now that the remit for social inclusion has gone to the community sector of the Department it becomes all the more pertinent for us.

I begin by giving a very brief outline of the kind of statistics that sit behind family carers in Ireland. Everybody present, and every public representative, will be reasonably familiar with the role of and issues affecting family carers. Every public representative will have carers calling in on a weekly basis about various issues to do with health services and so forth. The contextual background is that there are approximately 160,000 family carers in Ireland, according to the last census of population. We take issue with that figure because we believe the true figure is much higher. The new census that will be taken in April 2011 has a modified question which is likely to identify a higher number of carers because of the way it is phrased. We will be happy to welcome that adjustment to the census next year.

According to the current figures there are about 41,000 full-time family carers in Ireland. These are people who provide care in their own homes to loved ones. They cannot leave their homes unless somebody else comes to fill in for them because of the care requirement of the person whom they are looking after. In other words, that person requires full-time care, attention, supervision, monitoring and so forth. Out of the 160,000 carers about 90,000 work and provide care. Out of that 90,000, about 14,000 provide full-time care and also work in employment, which is a significant burden for them. About 18,000 of Ireland's family carers are aged over 65 and more than likely looking after an elderly spouse. We are concerned about this cohort of people because in many instances they require care themselves.

An emerging issue which is starting to get a great deal of media attention is that of young carers. According to the current figures and data available to us there are just over 5,000 young carers. Unfortunately, the previous census did not take account of those aged under 15 years so the figure of 5,000 young carers as stated ranges between 15 and 19 years. The new census of population next year will include that age group so we hope to have a better view and better luck in enumerating the number of young carers.

From a social welfare point of view, at present there are about 48,000 people in Ireland in receipt of the carer's allowance. We wish to acknowledge the progress that has been made with regard to this allowance. Obviously, there still is some way to go but progress has been made. There are more than 19,000 people in receipt of the half-rate allowance, which was introduced by the late Séamus Brennan when he was Minister. It gives recognition to family carers who are already in receipt of another social welfare payment. Many of these are pensioners who are providing care, probably for a spouse. That half-rate allowance gives them huge recognition but also allows them to offset the allowance against some of the extra costs of care. Anybody who is aware of carers will know that in a family where care is provided there are many extra costs which are not present in a normal family setting. These include items such as transport, extra heating bills, extra dietary requirements that are not necessarily covered by medical cards, and so on. That was a very welcome introduction and as an organisation we are concerned that it not be targeted in the forthcoming budget. We can discuss that in greater detail throughout the presentation.

There are just under 2,000 people in receipt of carer's benefit. These are carers who were in full-time employment but have given up employment to take up family care. For that they get carer's benefit which allows them to provide care for a two year period during which, under the Carer's Leave Act, the employer has to keep their job open for them.

We are concerned about what seems to be a growing trend, namely, the habitual residency clause which is preventing a number of carers from receiving the carer's allowance. In effect, people return home from abroad to provide care, in most cases for an elderly parent. They are not in a position to say how long they will be here, unfortunately, because they do not know how long the situation will last. The habitual residency clause has five criteria but the main one preventing carers from getting the carer's allowance on returning home concerns what is considered their actual centre. Generally, that is taken to be the property where one lives abroad which is seen as one's centre of residence. That ruling is preventing family carers from returning home and receiving the carer's allowance. They have no income when they come back to Ireland to provide care. We have had a number of instances of this and we hope that the committee will support us on this issue. We have spoken to the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, about it and hope there may be some sort of waiver, specifically for carers who return home to provide care.

There are 71,000 people in Ireland in receipt of the respite care grant. That is a payment of €1,700 which comes to full-time carers on 1 June every year. It allows the carer to buy in care for a specific period to allow them to go on holidays, which is why it comes in summer time. It is very much welcomed and we are concerned that it should not be targeted in any budgetary cutbacks proposed. I commend the Department of Social Protection which takes a flexible and common sense approach to how that grant is administered and used.

In a nutshell, in terms of opening comments, it is fair to say, as the Chairman has done, that family carers in Ireland are providing about 3.7 million hours of care per week. That huge sum is being provided largely by a group of people who are invisible. I reiterate that 40,000 are full-time carers. In Ireland approximately 39,000 nurses are employed by the HSE and do invaluable work. However, they can all be clearly identified as to their place of employment and because they wear uniforms, have entitlements to holidays, sick leave and so forth. Yet there is another group, largely invisible and unrecognised in terms of their role, who are saving the State in the region of €2.8 billion, almost €3 billion, per year. That calculation is based on taking the number of hours carers work at home and multiplying that figure by the lowest point on the home help pay scale; it is not analogous to institutional care. It is a solid and reasonable figure and works out at a saving of about €45,000 for every family carer.

In terms of the general issues of equality and social justice for family carers that we are here to discuss today, it is easy to say and reasonable to understand that carers very often experience exclusion and disadvantage due to the systemic and interrelated barriers that prevent social and economic participation. Long-term carers are especially at risk of poor health, social isolation and financial disadvantage. Many have increased costs associated with providing care such as medication, equipment, transport, heat expenses and hospital appointment costs. The cost of parking in hospitals is an issue raising its head on a more frequent basis than was the case previously. In general, if carers are unsupported, these factors often combine to result in deep and persistent social and economic poverty. While carers contribute greatly to the well-being and social inclusion of the people for whom they care, their contribution is often a disadvantage to them and the cost of providing the care becomes a barrier to social and economic participation. As a result of the role carried out by carers, especially full time carers, this presents many difficulties and issues with regard to exclusion and social isolation. They cannot participate in society. Much research has been carried out with regard to carers' participation in society and how they can feel vulnerable and isolated as result.

I refer to access to adequate income for carers. We acknowledge the decision of Government to protect those over 66 years of age from welfare cuts in last year's budget. However, we were bitterly disappointed that family carers got a 3.8% cut in their social welfare payments. This, combined with the fact that the Christmas bonus had been cut, led to a 4% cut for carers during 2009. Carers are the only group in receipt of social welfare payments who must work for such payments. No other group in society who receives a social welfare payment must work for it. I refer to the calls to action we seek in this regard. We wish for the Government to ensure any funding which goes to carers and carer related payments is ring fenced and not targeted in the forthcoming budget. We call on the Government to stick to its promise to ensure the vulnerable in society are protected.

I refer to carers and employment. In 2006, more than 90,000 carers worked in Ireland and provided care at the same time. Of these, approximately 14,000 provide full-time care. They are working and providing full-time care of more than 42 hours per week on top of the work they carry out. The challenge is to ensure those with caring responsibilities have genuine choices in respect of caring, employment or a combination of both. Flexible working arrangements are a key day-to-day requirement for working carers. They should be provided and availed of by employers and carers and co-workers must be aware of carers' roles and needs in society and how working arrangements can be organised to meet these needs. The association calls for funding to be made available to raise awareness of working carers among employers and to provide incentives for the development of more carer-friendly and flexible working arrangements.

Family carers in receipt of the carers allowance or benefit are allowed to work 15 hours per week. We wish for the Government to increase that to 19.5 hours per week. In certain, though not all, situations this would allows carers to supplement their income.

I refer to the extra costs of transport. The fact that the rural transport scheme was kept in place last year was of great benefit to carers. We received several calls last year from people concerned that the rural transport initiative would be taken away. They maintained that was their only method of getting to doctors and their local towns to get prescriptions for the person for whom they care. Unfortunately, the carer does not receive a travel pass. I refer to cases where carers travel with the person for whom they care using their companion pass for a hospital visit or appointment. The person may be left there and then the carer cannot travel back on the bus because the person with whom they travelled does not come back with them. This would seem to be a very impractical method. We seek for carers to receive the free travel pass when they receive the allowance, which would remove such practical anomalies. A common sense approach should be taken. We do not have exact costs for this but I do not envisage that the costs would be high.

One issue arising increasingly relates to when carers bring their cared-for person to hospital appointments and park in a car park. This applies especially in the case of people on public waiting lists. Everyone is called at 9 a.m. and if one does not arrive until 9.10 a.m. one finds there are 15 people already in the queue. The carer ends up paying car parking charges at a high rate because of the inefficiencies in our hospital system. This is likely to be challenged at some stage. It does not make much sense and it is unfair that people are paying for inadequacies in the system which are not their fault. This is an emerging issue. In recent years, every hospital in the country has installed paid parking whereas previously it was free. This is becoming an issue.

Page five of the document refers to social isolation and the loss of independence. The position of caring on a regular basis can lead to isolation, financial hardship, stress and exhaustion. It can create major risks to the carer's own health and includes the loss of various opportunities, for example, those related to employment, education, holidays, hobbies, rest and ordinary family life of which everyone else avails. All these factors mean many carers face deep and lasting social exclusion. This can be especially difficult for rural carers, who may find themselves geographically isolated with limited access to existing supports and services. One need not live in a rural location without transport to be isolated. It can happen when one is living in a city or town environment as well, especially in a caring role.

The association calls for continuation of funding towards training of family carers, which is included in the dormant accounts and funding for training in areas such as equality, advocacy, care in the home, information technology and so on. The year before last, fully €1.5 million was given from the dormant accounts fund specifically to train family carers. It is probable that this has been one of the best investments in the history of the dormant accounts scheme. Such organisations as ours were awarded funding to train carers in practical caring skills. Caring is probably one of the only jobs for which one does not receive training. We hold concerns that when the funding runs out, which is likely to be towards the middle or end of 2011, there will be no follow-on funding. It is expected that this funding will train in the region of 15,000 to 18,000 family carers. Of the 160,000 family carers, some 40,000 are full-time and there is some way to go with regard to this measure.

A nurse working in a hospital or a person working in a nursing home is not allowed lift a person from a bed or move him or her without the presence of two people for insurance purposes. The family carer at home has to take on that role and do it on his or her own, and by and large he or she has no one else to help out him or her. They have to lift the person, move them, bed bath them and feed them on his or her own which can often lead to back injuries and general poor health.

Another point which is quite pertinent for the committee is that we would like to see carers included as a target group within the social inclusion agenda. We call on the committee to support that call which would allow quite a lot of other issues, in particular those around social inclusion, to be dealt with at a local level through the partnership and Leader groups which currently exist.

A group to which I referred earlier is older carers of which there are more than 18,000 or 11% of carers enumerated in the 2006 census of population. Such people are working more than 43 hours per week and are over the age of 65. This presents unique challenges for this group. In many cases some people in the group also require care. They very often neglect their own health when it comes to looking after the person they care for. They obviously put the person first and are very much at risk of social isolation and economic deprivation.

In addition, many older carers face the stress of planning for their future and ensuring their loved ones continue to receive care after they pass away or are no longer available to provide the care. It is something which is a huge worry for older carers and carers of adults with special needs or disabilities. The carer always worries about what will happen if he or she passes away before the person he or she is caring for and who will look after him or her. We find it tends to be something older carers, in particular, are burdened with.

We would like to see needs assessment being introduced, in particular for older people and carers, as a very obvious practical measure which could be used to fight against lack of services and acknowledgement of their role. Needs assessment, where it operates effectively, tends to put services in place before the horse bolts. People see the issues coming down the line and plan accordingly. Unfortunately, we do not currently have needs assessment in place for family carers or older people. We would like to see that addressed.

We also call for the continuation of funding for the senior alert scheme, which was formerly known as the community supports for older people scheme, and to expand the scope of the scheme to include additional security measures such as heat and sensor exits which will allow people to live independently in their homes. A lot of work is being done on how technology can help people to be looked after in their own homes. In terms of foresight, this scheme should help that process to take place.

Many carers who look after people with dementia and so forth find these type of aids very beneficial. If an older person, for example, goes out the front door at 8 p.m. or 10 p.m. during the winter, a sensor can send a text message immediately to a person's mobile phone or a warning signal will pop up immediately on the screen of a television. Other sensors can be used in the chair where an older person sits and when he or she gets up off the chair, a message will appear on the television to let people know that the person has moved. It is a very effective scheme and there was quite a lot of concern last year when it was put on ice for a number of months. It has been reinstated and it has a lot of use in ensuring people can be cared for in their own homes for as long as possible.

In terms of supporting hidden carers, one of the great difficulties which exists around family care in particular is that carers very often do not identify themselves as carers because they say they will look after their parents or their child who was born with a disability. It is an issue which we found has come to the fore over the past five, six or seven years. People are starting to realise it has an impact on their lives and if they did not perform the role, the State would have to take it over and it would cost a lot more. People have realised that if they are supported properly in their role, they will find it a lot easier to perform it and will continue to do it for longer.

It is very important that specific programmes are put in place to help people to identify themselves as carers. We are calling for funding to be made available, in particular for research to advance the understanding and response to issues such as working carers, young carers, hidden carers, carers from other diverse cultural backgrounds and those experiencing social and rural isolation. In an economic downturn research is something which tends to get hit on the head. The issue of carers in Ireland is one that is grossly under-researched and there are many areas on which we need further data. Very often when we speak to Departments or Ministers they look for quite detailed statistical information and organisations such as ours are not in a position to give credible, detailed, research-based evidence because the funding is not available to do that. We are constantly working from anecdotal evidence. To be fair, every politician has his or her finger on the pulse in terms of anecdotal evidence because it comes through the door of constituency clinics.

In terms of equality and social justice, many family carers are overburdened, feel unrecognised and unappreciated and are unable to have any life of their own. The sustainability of family care in Ireland will become increasingly jeopardised unless the fundamentals of care policy are given a new direction, one that fits with the reality of caring in Ireland today. It is imperative, therefore, that the Government works to develop and promote policies which reduce carer poverty and promote social justice and inclusion for family carers.

Since 2002 the association has been a member of the community and voluntary pillar of social partnership, giving family carers a voice in the national partnership process and enabling meaningful dialogue between social partners and the Government in the pursuit of commitments set out in Towards 2016. Our involvement with social partnership has ensured commitments made by the Government in the Towards 2016 national agreement are met. As part of this our organisation receives funding to allow us to participate in a meaningful way within the social partnership process and we want to ensure that funding comes through the Department of Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs. It is important that the funding is held and it is one piece of funding for which there is quite a lot of evidence to suggest that it should be increased to allow the issues to which we referred to be dealt with properly. The social partnership model has been advantageous for groups such as ours and our continuation and proper involvement in it is justified.

In terms of the national carers strategy, Ireland's ageing population and the shift towards community health care makes it imperative that carers are put firmly at the centre of the Government's agenda in this regard. The publication of the national carers strategy committed to in Towards 2016 and the programme for Government were to set out for the first time the Government's vision for family carers and establish a set of goals and actions in areas such as income support, health care, services, housing and transport. The publication of the strategy is vital in recognising the contribution made by family carers in providing a cohesive and cross-departmental response to their needs.

As people will be aware, last year the Government decided not to proceed with the carers strategy, which was very disappointing to us and carers in general because it would have been seen as a roadmap in terms of setting out how carers would be recognised, how services would be provided to them and ensuring people would be cared for in their own homes for as long as possible, which is Government policy. Carers are the people who make the Government's policy a reality in terms of ensuring people can be cared for in their homes for as long as possible. We ask the committee to support us in our call to the Government to reconsider and publish the strategy, but we are not seeking a strategy that sets out exact timeframes with regard to spend and so on. People are realistic about where we are in terms of the economic downturn, but as time goes by it is evident that policy is shifting towards community care. Unfortunately, the resources put into community care are nowhere near the level required; at present they are in retrenchment. Every day and almost every hour our organisation receives calls from people who are unable to access services such as home care packages and are certainly unable to access home help. In Cork, home help in particular is almost non-existent. The Government will push its responsibility back to the family and the family will underwrite the Government's responsibility. We are not asking that Ireland be turned into a nanny state but that the Government provide for people to be properly cared for at home and support the carer in that particular role.

The contribution made by carers to the economy is conservatively estimated to be in excess of €2.8 billion and could be as high as €3 billion each year. Despite this, the delivery of this highly valuable service to our older and vulnerable adults and children with special needs comes at a high cost to carers. Research has consistently identified that carers are an at-risk group for negative well-being. They have higher than average rates of depression, chronic illness, injury and poverty due to the physical, emotional and financial demands of caring.

Despite the fact that family carers are already propping up Ireland's fragile health system, recent announcements by the HSE point to the expanding role they will play in its future, with less patients in our hospitals, shorter hospital stays and an increasing focus on community care. Research has shown that 90% of community care already takes place within the home, yet family carers will be expected to carry an even greater responsibility for community care provision. The Carers Association is concerned that carers will simply be unable to cope as the increased burden of care as well as reductions to the benefits and supports they rely on such as carer's allowance and carer's benefit, the loss of the Christmas bonus, the introduction of the carbon tax, prescription charges on medical card holders and the increase to €120 in the monthly drug payment scheme all take their toll. I would not underestimate the impact that has on family carers who are only in receipt of a social welfare income. Huge costs are incurred by carers who provide care at home which would not occur in normal family circumstances.

The association urges that in the interests of responsible Government, priorities for expenditure be aligned to the evidenced needs of family carers. Investment in social welfare supports, health services, education and training, strategies to improve equality and social justice for carers, as well as the publication of the national carers strategy must remain a priority for the Government.

I thank Mr. Egan for updating the committee on the key priorities for family carers and the challenges facing the association. His report was very comprehensive. As he rightly said, politicians of all hues are very much in touch with these issues because, as public representatives, we deal with many issues in regard to carers in our daily work. I invite my colleagues to put some questions to the delegation. As Chairman, I would be happy to support all the key points made, in particular, the final point to urge the Government to publish the national carers strategy as soon as possible.

I welcome the Carers Association which do an excellent job. I am very concerned about what is happening in my county and others. People are being told that if they are in receipt of carer's allowance, they will not get home help. This must be stopped immediately. Carers do an excellent job and the home help gives them a little relief, back-up and support. If this trend continues, we will fight it every step of the way. I call on the Carers Association, as a national organisation, to request an urgent meeting with the Minister for Health and Children to ensure this trend does not continue. It is happening in my county and it is outrageous.

The second issue concerns carer's benefit. I have had many people over the years who have taken time out to look after a loved one and have got the carer's benefit quite easily. When it was time to go back to work, they found they could not leave the loved one, wished to continue caring for that person and applied for carer's allowance. The new trend in recent months is that, even though they qualified on all grounds for carer's benefit, they are disqualified from carer's allowance. Perhaps the delegation would comment. This is an outrageous attack on carers. If there is a shortage of money, there are other areas that can be looked at. If a person qualified for carer's benefit and later applied for carer's allowance, they should be eligible for same and there should be no necessity for a medical test. There is also the habitual residency condition. I identified that at an early stage as an issue that must be dealt with. I have seen people return from New York and all parts of the world to a loved one and this ruling is being used not to allow them draw down carer's allowance. We are very lucky that these people are prepared to come home to look after their loved ones. Given the small cost of the carer's allowance, it is wrong that they do not qualify for same, and something needs to be done.

In regard to transport and the number of hours people want to work, carers should be allowed work more than 16 hours. When the community welfare officers call to people, they put a trick question especially to those who are doing a small amount of farming. When they arrive at the door, the first question they ask is whether the person does much farming and, if so, how many hours per day is spent at it. Without thinking, they say six hours per day. If that is calculated over seven days a week, it amounts to 42 hours. Even if the person said he worked three hours per day, he or she is automatically knocked off the carer's allowance. I always advise people when applying for carer's allowance of that trick question that is asked. When the application comes back it is clear the person is eligible on financial and health grounds but does not qualify because they will not be full-time carers. That is an outrageous attack, especially on rural isolated people. In some cases, the farming is only a hobby or a pastime and they do not actually make any money from it.

Along with Deputy Willie Penrose I was a member of the committee that made the recommendations to the late Seamus Brennan for the half carer's allowance. We received submissions from throughout the country on the issue. I hope that allowance will not be taken away owing to the financial situation. It would be an outrageous attack on people in receipt of other State pensions if they do not get the half carer's allowance. I am aware it was reviewed last year but I hope it remains in place. As I said to the Minister, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, last week when speaking in the Dáil on the Social Welfare Bill, this must not be allowed happen. There were other recommendations in the national carers strategy which I hope will be published and implemented as soon as possible. There are other things I could say but I will not as there are others who wish to contribute.

In regard to the respite grant, a number of people said in the recent census that they were providing full-time care or providing care. There are people in receipt of carer's allowance and respite grants, but there is a category that receives no payment. Is it because they do not know about the respite grant? Can the delegation explain the reason they get no payment from the State?

I ask the delegation to take note of those questions. I will take three contributions and then invite the delegation to respond.

I welcome Mr. Egan and the members of the delegation. Mr. Egan has made a very important presentation on behalf of carers. A concern I have is that the public does not acknowledge the work of carers. Those of us who are public representatives know the work involved but it is not until one sees it in reality that one understands the work of the carer. That was highlighted in recent television programmes on people caring for people suffering from Alzheimer's and dementia. One programme showed a woman trying to deal with her husband who was 6 ft. 2 in. or 6 ft. 3 in. tall and to see what that woman was trying to do to care for her husband was unbelievable. Mr. Egan mentioned the lack of training and support mechanisms available to, say, that woman to help her husband to get into bed or into a car, and the effect that was having on her. We saw in that programme that the interviewer tried to help the woman but he was unable to do so. Her husband was 6 ft. 2 in. or 6 ft. 3. in tall but it was difficult for the woman to get him into the car because she had no support available to her. She wanted to go shopping but how could she do that and leave her husband at home alone? We then saw that a home help was provided for 20 minutes to assist in the care of this man. That is ludicrous compared with the level of care we talk about providing. We talk the talk but will we walk the walk and do the good work when the time comes? I doubt it very much.

What Mr. Egan spoke about in terms of training and the support mechanisms available is one of the issues we must highlight. There is no doubt that where a person is over the age of 65, being a carer for someone, as in the instance to which I referred — other instances highlighted in those programmes were also of similar concern — endangers his or her health because he or she does not understand how to deal with the problem. We talk about community activities, FÁS schemes and so on but it is obvious that we must do something for carers in terms of training people to help these people. We must try to make their lives easier and give them something to look forward to in the future.

Many carers are fearful about what will happen to the people they leave behind when God calls them to the next world. These people feel that fear every day in addition to addressing the problems they have to deal with every day in looking after the people for whom they are caring.

We talk about equality and this committee now has responsibility for that area, but I hope that in the future we will seriously examine what we can do to help the people represented here today. I have no doubt we are all aware of what carers are experiencing, yet we also know that carers will not walk away from their caring jobs because of their love for and dedication to the persons for whom they are caring. One can only imagine what would happen if all the carers walked away from the work they are doing. More than 160,000 people would be seeking hospital care and we would not be able to provide it, yet we accept the wonderful work the carers do but we leave the problem at their door. That is the issue we face. We must give more to and work more with these people if we are to move forward. Our population is getting older, a fact that is supported by the figures in this area, and we will need more carers. If we do not prepare for that now, in ten, 15 or 20 years' time we will face a much greater problem than we have today.

I hope we do everything possible in this committee to respond to what is an excellent and detailed submission. I thank Mr. Egan for that. We will support the association in every way we can in that regard. I hope this is not a once-off visit by the representatives of the association to this committee. Owing to its importance and having regard to the configuration it will play in terms of future generations, we should regularly invite representatives of the association to meetings to hear their concerns, determine if progress is being made and work with them to try to provide a better service for them.

I do wonder about advocacy of the group because carers deal with many aspects of life in terms of people suffering from Alzheimer's, dementia, autism and other conditions. Specifically to Mr. Enda Egan, Mr. Frank Goodwin, Mr. Frank Lahiffe and Ms Clare Duffy, how do they bring the carers of those people together to provide a stronger political presence for the case they make? There are societies representing people suffering from Alzheimer's, dementia and autism and their families, and then there are the carers. The association is fragmented in nature but it could have a much stronger presence in terms of advocating what is needed in all the different aspects of what it does. I would like one of the representatives to comment on that.

I support what Deputy Ring said about home care packages. I get angry when I think of a person requiring care being allocated a home help for 20 minutes. I will not go down that road today but I might speak about that some other day. I hope and pray we recognise the work that is being done and that we as a committee act and work with the representatives to improve the position they are in and that we plan for the future. It is not only a matter of our meeting today and considering what the next budget will be, although that is important in its own right, but of planning for the long term to address the major problems. If we do not do that with this group, we will have a fragmented approach to this area and that would not benefit the carer, the person cared for, or society in terms of respect for the people who need care and attention.

I echo the points made by Deputies Wall and Ring. We are here to assist in every way possible in the short term in the context of a budget but also in the longer term. If we have to return to consider this issue, we will. I call Deputy Kennedy.

I welcome Mr. Enda Egan and the group from the Carers Association and congratulate them on their work and the paper presented. I echo everything that has been said. I regard carers as the unsung heroes of society. Often they do work in the background, which many people do not know about, and it is only when we as public representatives are presented with issues and problems that we realise the work people do and how they care for their loved ones. I regard community care as the way forward. As others have said, with our ageing population, the provision of care will become a bigger issue as the years progress. This Government and future Governments will have to recognise that fact and fund such provision accordingly.

I do not want to repeat what has been said, but I want to put a proposition to Mr. Egan on joint caring, which he did not mention. This would be a funding issue and not one that would be readily recognised or resolved. Often caring seems to fall on one member of the family, whether it be the oldest or youngest daughter. I have met people whose family members all contribute to the care of a loved one but only one carer can be given the funding. In terms of caring for a person suffering from Alzheimer's, to which Deputy Wall referred, where the person requires care 24-7, it is impossible for one individual, no matter how dedicated he or she is, to do that day in day out, even if such a carer is lucky enough to get a break with the provision of two week's respite care provision. Provision for joint caring is something for which the Minister, the advisers and members of the association as a representative organisation should push.

In terms of giving the one person that bit of a break, there are persons who would contribute if there was that incentive. The provision of another 4.5 hours per week would be welcome. However, the joint caring aspect, say, even for 15 hours per person, might be a way forward in terms of dealing with the major issues of those who, unfortunately, are able to do nothing for themselves and who need 24-7 care in terms of personal care, going on hospital visits or even taking them out to a shop or whatever. Has the association considered this and is it worth considering? The way forward is for the Government to publish that national strategy. That is the first priority in terms of putting the blueprint in place for the future.

The delegation may wish to comment on the specific points raised by Deputies Ring, Wall and Kennedy. I will leave it to themselves as to who wishes to answer.

Mr. Enda Egan

I will start with Deputy Kennedy's point about joint caring and sharing the care. It is a pertinent question for the following reason. If one takes the carer's allowance as it stands, the general view is that it can only go to one person. However, if one digs deep into the archives of the Department of Social Protection, one will find that there are a small number of cases where the Department allowed the carer's allowance to be shared. The Department does not advertise that. It does not make that commonly known. One must search fairly deeply to find it. We asked the Department to publicise that and that has not happened to date. We had a meeting recently with the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, and we are due to send him a paper on that issue within the next week or so.

Deputy Kennedy is correct in stating that sharing care would help. I am not sure how much of a take-up there would be on it. If it is not being advertised and happens to be sitting there somewhere, it certainly will not be taken up. In many cases, for example, dementia care and care of persons with severe disabilities, as Deputy Wall stated, the onus is on one person to carry out that sort of a role 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and his or her time is limited. It is an important point. If we can get support for sharing care, it is something that would be a benefit to many. There are many who possibly would take that option, where two or three in a family could be in a position to share the caring. It would reduce the burden. It would benefit the carer as well and his or her mental and physical health. As I stated, it has been exercised by the Department and it could be made much more widely available. On that issue, we certainly will be coming back to the Minister, who in fairness is open to suggestion on it.

Deputy Ring put his finger on a number of issues about which we are very concerned, especially home help. The only area where we were aware that this home help issue arose was in Wexford. Again, it is anecdotal evidence. The issue is that people do not want to come forward and give their names because they are afraid it will affect other services that they receive. The kind of feedback we got was that there are directives sitting behind the system which state that if a person applies for home help and is in receipt of a carer's allowance, that is seen as a payment for that and, therefore, the person should not get home help. The Government is clear that carer's allowance is not a payment for the work that is being done; it is an income supplement. On that basis, it is nothing short of outrageous that this would be used as a particular methodology to prevent persons from getting a home help service. It shows quite clearly the depth of inadequacy of understanding of the role of the carer within certain service delivery arms of the State. We hope to try to get a number of cases together to present on this issue. It is immediate and we will be seeking a meeting with the Minister on that because it is nothing short of shocking.

Another worrying emerging trend is that those applying for a carer's allowance, who one would have said if they had applied two years ago would have got the carer's allowance and who satisfy the means test, are getting knocked back on the basis of the care requirement or the health condition of the person for whom they provide care. The general practitioner signs the form on behalf of the family and states that he or she is of the view that this person requires full-time care and attention, but the Department, on receipt of it, is starting to say "No". It is a little early yet to say but the figures suggest that the number of applicants being refused carer's allowance is higher than it used be, and that is a worrying trend. It was noted a number of years ago at the time of the 9/11 tragedy, when there seemed to be a little spike. It is quite a concern. It would of great concern if there were persons coming off carer's benefit and applying for carer's allowance who were getting knocked back on the basis of that issue when they were getting carer's benefit on the basis that it was okay. I would agree there are quite worrying trends in that regard which we will follow up.

On the comments of Deputy Wall, the big issue we face as carers and as an organisation is that carers are not in a position to go on strike. They are not in a position today or tomorrow to go on a so-called blue 'flu day or to drive their tractors down the main streets of Dublin or anywhere else for that matter. One would be concerned that people are being held over a barrel as a result. If carers decided in the morning that they were not going to provide family care, I can assure the committee that Bills going through the House on stag hunts, dog breeding and all the other matters about which we have heard over recent days that seem to be exercising people greatly would be the least of our concerns. That is the considerable difficulty. There is also the difficulty the Deputy correctly pointed out that carers work across the caring sector, with older persons, persons with disabilities, persons with special needs, etc. The needs and what affects each one of those groups are different, and they all are not necessarily concerned about the same issue. Certainly, the big issue is that if one wanted to organise a march down the main street of Dublin tomorrow, the chances are one would have only 100 people in a time when one needs 2 million people going down O'Connell Street to get noticed. Unfortunately, that is the way it is.

There are many other communication methods available nowadays so that people need not leave their homes, such as the Internet, text, e-mail, etc. We certainly encourage carers constantly to get in contact with their local Deputies and local public representatives through every means available. Deputy Wall is correct that there is much work and valuable investment required in advocacy, in particular for carers, which would reap benefits in the end. Unfortunately, it is a case where those who shout the loudest and fight the hardest and longest win at the end of the day. Carers are in such a pressurised cocoon owing to the requirements of being a carer and its knock-on effect in terms of their own mental and physical energy that they state they do not have the time, energy or inclination to be doing that because they are worn out and up to their eyes with the caring commitment. It is unfortunate that people would be held over a barrel and taken advantage of in that regard.

I thank Mr. Egan. It is a good point about lobbying that carers cannot go on strike. Speaking on behalf of all members, a number of issues were raised with which the association will be trying to deal over the coming weeks and months. I urge our guests to remain in contact with members of the committee in the months ahead. We would be happy to assist them in their efforts, which will involve setting up meetings with Ministers and dealing with matters relating to carer's allowance, etc.

Mr. Frank Goodwin

I wish to comment on one issue, in respect of which it is important to provide the committee with some information. I refer to asking the Government to increase the hours relating to full-time carers. These are people on carer's allowance who have been certified as providing full-time care and who have been means-tested. In such circumstances, they were what might be termed "gold bonded". These individuals are allowed to work 16 hours per week and we are trying to have this increased to 20 hours per week. The only question that has been raised in respect of this matter by civil servants is whether people who are allowed to work 20 hours per week outside the home are really providing full-time care.

We could argue on behalf of carers in respect of this matter but I am of the view that an answer is required in respect of the question to which I refer. My answer is that the people involved are certified as providing full-time care and as one of the members pointed out, we know that in most instances such care is given on a 24-hours-a-day, seven-days-a-week basis. I calculated the figures on a 24-7 basis and it means that these people provide care for 168 hours per week. If one presumes that every full-time carer gets a full eight hours sleep each night — we know this is not the case — this would mean that they provide full-time care for 112 hours per week. That is double the normal working week of any ordinary employee.

We are seeking that the people to whom I refer be allowed to work 20 hours per week outside the home, which represents less than 20% of their entire working week. This number of hours would constitute approximately 50% of a normal week. However, that is not what they are seeking. They are, rather, seeking to be allowed to work approximately 18% to 19% of their own working week outside the home. If they were given this, the onus of responsibility to ensure that those for whom they are obliged to care would be given that care in their absence would still be upon them. If the person being cared for needs to have someone present with them every hour, then the carer who is going to be absent must arrange for this to happen.

Some people who require full-time care can be left on their own for an hour or two because they are compos mentis, are not agitated and are quite comfortable in their homes, can watch television, take a nap or whatever. As a result, their carers can go shopping for an hour or two. In many instances, however, carers who care for those with dementia, agitation or anxiety with regard to being left alone cannot do such things. The latter is an understandable, selfish anxiety. People will ask who is going to care for them if their carers are killed in car accidents while out running errands. It is unfortunate that people find themselves in situations of that sort. Carers feel very vulnerable and often become stressed out when contemplating making a visit to the shops.

We are of the view that carers have enough motivation — there is also adequate stress and strain on them — to ensure that there is cover in place if they are going out. There are great bonuses for carers who might be in a position to work an additional 20 hours per week outside the home. They will obtain additional income but, more importantly, they will lead a more social existence because they will be outside the care environment and will be in a position to mix with others. Mixing with colleagues at work bolsters one's mental and emotional well-being.

Those are the type of arguments we would put forward in respect of increasing the number of hours to 20. We have not been presented with any substantial objections with regard to why the increase should not be facilitated.

Ms Clare Duffy

I wish to answer Deputy Ring's question with regard to carer's benefit. There is an assumption that when one is on this, the transition to carer's allowance should be much easier. However, this is not the case. The criteria relating to qualification for carer's benefit are different from those which obtain in respect of qualification for carer's allowance. Carer's benefit is based on one's PRSI contributions and relates to people who might be obliged to give up work on a temporary basis. If, after two years, a person is obliged to give up work on a permanent basis and go on carer's allowance, the tests he or she must undergo in order to qualify are different. That is why there is a difficulty in transitioning from carer's benefit to carer's allowance.

At present, under 2,000 people are in receipt of carer's benefit. There is a real issue in this regard because people may not be aware of their entitlements or perhaps do not understand what is involved.

The real issue does not relate to people moving from one payment to another. I am concerned about those individuals who are caring for relatives or whomever who are in need of full-time care and whose conditions are deteriorating. Some of the former have been refused carer's allowance on medical grounds, which is outrageous.

Ms Clare Duffy

There is no doubt that the people for whom many of the carers with whom I am coming into contact require full-time care. These carers submit their applications for carer's allowance and one can almost always presume that they will be refused. I have seen a great deal of this and many of the refusals are based on medical grounds.

I thank our guests for their presentation. Mr. Egan stated that there has been an increase in the figures relating to carer's allowance. Is there anecdotal evidence in this regard or do the facts indicate that more people have been refused the allowance in recent times. One would have thought that the numbers in receipt of the allowance would have increased rather than decreased.

The Government's policy is that it wants more people to be cared for within the community. This year's budget for home-care services in County Mayo was cut by €17 million. There appears to be a contradiction in this regard. As previous speakers indicated, we are all aware of people who are suffering as a result of what is happening. I know one old lady who was visited by a home help for an hour each morning but who does not have access to the service in the evening. It takes this woman two hours to disrobe each evening when she is going to bed. She often falls asleep as she is undressing. The Western Alzheimer's Association provides some respite care in my county. The association operates on a voluntary basis and is obliged to fundraise on an ongoing basis in order to provide carers with a break.

Our guests indicated that, at a conservative estimate, carers save the State €2.8 billion each year. Some €3 billion in savings must be found in the six months leading up to the budget. According to the figures our guests provided, it is obvious if carers did not provide such a wonderful service, the amount required in savings would be nearer to €6 billion.

I commend our guests on their work they are doing. It behoves members of this committee to support them in respect of the reasonable demands they have made.

I welcome our guests and thank them for their presentation. I agree with what a number of colleagues stated. The presentation was excellent in that it clearly sets out what our guests are seeking. It contains, for the most part, a number of quite modest requests. A number of these requests could be dealt with fairly easily. I refer, for example, to that relating to the cost of parking. That might seem unimportant to most people but if one is a carer and if one is making regular visits to hospitals, one will spend a small fortune paying for parking. Practical matters of this nature could be dealt with quite easily.

I was shocked when I discovered how many carers are aged between 15 and 19. I was even more shocked by the information, contained in one of the tables provided by our guests, which indicates that there are carers who are below the age of five. It is horrific that anyone under the age of 18 would have a substantial caring role because that should not be the case. Surely the State should ensure that does not happen. I acknowledge such children may not be full-time carers but this places a huge burden on them and changes their entire childhood. How long does a person who starts caring aged 15 remain in that caring role? Is it ongoing? Are they simply committed to it? Does the association have statistics in this regard? These children's lives are changed because of the environment in which they find themselves when they should be able to go about their business and do the things teenagers do without being burdened with such a responsibility.

I refer to the respite care grant. The association states 71,000 carers are in receipt of the grant, although it has identified 161,000 in the country. Why is every carer not automatically entitled to the grant? Do they not apply, do they not know about it or are they refused? The grant is small and somebody who is caring, even if it is not 24-7, has an entitlement to look forward to a little respite.

How does the association go about finding hidden carers and getting them into the loop to ensure they know about the services, facilities and financial support to which they are entitled? That group is probably larger than can be accounted for because the fact they are hidden means their number cannot be measured accurately. The association is asking for research to be conducted to establish how many hidden carers are in the State, which is important.

While we are considering practical day-to-day issues, it is important that research is sustained and information gathering continues in order that we know what it is we are planning for in the future. The publication of the carer's strategy is critical because that will be the blueprint for how we move forward in regard to caring.

I congratulate the association on its tremendous work. I am concerned about the hidden carers issue. Mr. Egan put his finger on it when he said carers cannot go down O'Connell Street on tractors to highlight what they do. Many people do not realise the significant work that goes on behind the scenes. It is an issue for all of us to support, highlight and recognise the work being done.

Mr. Egan implied that very often carers do not realise the supports and entitlements available to them. Is there an information deficit? If so, is there an opening for professionals such as public health nurses to inform carers about what is available? Could this be strengthened in some way?

Has anything happened as a result of the publication of the association's study? I have been raising the young carers issue for a number of years in the Dáil. I am worried about nothing happening following the publication of the document. Various supports, websites and information are available in other countries with technology and schools involved and so on. Is that happening in Ireland? Is there a danger the report could be left on the shelf?

Have the representatives read the national carers' strategy? Why has it not been published? Why has the Government not trusted us by publishing it in order that we can read it? If they have read a draft of the strategy, perhaps they could inform the committee about what it contains because we have not been informed.

A major controversy has arisen in recent weeks about respite care for children with special needs and summer supports being taken from them. They were given two week's notice in Dublin, Limerick and elsewhere. It will fall to their carers, parents and others to look after them full time over the summer whereas before they were given a break. The parents, in particular, need that break and look forward to it. I met a group of them in Dublin yesterday and they were distraught and upset. Has this issue been raised with the association? Is there a danger similar measures could be introduced elsewhere?

Deputy Ring and Ms Duffy referred to the carer's benefit issue. Would there be merit in extending the time during which the benefit could be drawn down rather than the recipient having to fall back on the carer's allowance after two years? Would that be a way to solve that problem? The carer's benefit lasts for two years, which is the average time somebody might expect to be a carer if the person being cared for is seriously ill. Would it be possible to extend the benefit period by six or 12 months or would there be complications with that?

Mr. Enda Egan

I would like Mr. Goodwin to reply to a number of these questions.

Mr. Frank Goodwin

An interdepartmental committee was involved in the national carers' strategy and we were made aware of the chapter headings. The document was drawn up and my understanding up until recently was that it had been more or less completed but had to go to each Minister for a final signing off. That was anticipated to be a relatively routine process in that the document had been more or less completed. However, at a recent meeting, we were informed that in addition to that, the recommendations had not been formulated. I was not aware of that until the past week or two. All the background work has been done and all the chapters written but the recommendations need to be put in, it needs to go back to each Minister to be signed off and then be presented to the Cabinet. That would involve a six-month process, which would tie it up. The strategy is lying dormant.

We were led to believe that the strategy was finished but Mr. Goodwin is saying it is not finished at all.

Mr. Frank Goodwin

No, we were never led to believe it was 100% finished. We were led to believe that a signing off on it was being done. More recently, what has been added to that is the recommendations have not been drawn up from the detail of the document. That is where we are told it is at.

What is Mr. Goodwin's best judgment on when it might ready based on his interaction with the group?

Mr. Frank Goodwin

It is dormant. No work is being done on it and the Government parties said it will remain dormant for the life of the Government. They have been clear about that from the time the decision was made. We, on the one hand, accept that is their position but we reject it and feel it is an unreasonable position in that any core, priority service should be planned even if one cannot commit resources to it immediately. That seems to be part of the reason they undertook to tie down the specifics in the recommendations both in terms of time and money.

We have said we will pursue a number of issues but we should agree the first item on our agenda will be to pursue this issue with the Minister.

May I make a further suggestion? Would there be any merit in publishing what has been done to date, without the recommendations?

Mr. Frank Goodwin

We feel there would be, but the Government feels that is a pointless exercise without the recommendations. In other words, it must be a document of substance. Its view is that there is no point in publishing something that cannot be activated while ours is that good planning suggests it should be published now. It would be a great boost to carers to know the Government was committed to a certain course of action at some time. Carers are not the most revolutionary group in society and will not kick up blue murder if money is not put into this tomorrow.

Surely whatever work has been done to date will be out of date by the time the Government feels it is time to publish and it will be time to start the whole process again. Obviously it will apply the research in the interim, but by the time the recommendations are ready the strategy will be out of date and it will be pointless to publish it. Therefore the money that has been spent on this to now will be wasted. Surely we should publish what is done and see it.

Would Mr. Egan like to comment on this?

Mr. Enda Egan

It is incredulous that we have a group of people who are providing 3.7 million hours a week to prop up the health service, but there is not a line of policy from the Government with regard to how we should deal with this group. Deputy Stanton suggested that public health nurses could be used to pass information to carers. We made the point with regard to the strategy that it could be published with all the non-cost items included. One would think that one of the most basic things that could be done, at little or no cost, would be for the Minister to issue a directive to the HSE to instruct public health nurses or people on the front line to distribute basic information packs as they visit family carers. Surely that would cost nothing more than political will and some common sense.

As someone who has had experience in various ministries, I think Mr. Egan is right. It is a fairly basic matter to outline principles, priorities and policy. I suggest we follow through on the proposal to pursue this.

Mr. Frank Goodwin

There is little research done on the issue of young carers in this country. Based on research in the UK and other countries which might be analogous to our situation, instead of the 5,500 carers from 15 years of age to 18 or 19 years of age declared in the census, we would expect our next census to show, it is guesstimated, approximately 28,000 such carers. This is a substantial number of young carers for whom we do not have any services. The report has been published and we are having a meeting with the Minister to see where we go from here, but if resources are not available for the area, little can be done. We are starting from the ground because nothing is in place. Places like Scotland have some dedicated workers on the ground who are committed to delivering services to young carers. They are committed to finding young carers and engaging them in a productive and positive range of ways, such as the Internet, Facebook, YouTube, youth clubs and so on. They do not just try to focus in on the individual young carer to help that one individual. They take a group approach, which is a cost-effective way of doing it.

On identifying young carers, surely we should not just identify them and consign them to being carers in perpetuity. We are surely not going to deny them the right to their education and opportunities, etc. It is a much broader issue than just identifying that there 28,000 young carers. The problem is greater than that. We cannot deprive these people of opportunities and commit them to being a carer for the rest of their days. We must examine the issue and investigate the possibilities for those child carers. Otherwise, from the age of 14 years of age or so, the child will be a carer for as long as the parent or whomever he or she is caring for lives, letting education and everything else go out the window. This issue needs to be put on the agenda for this debate.

Mr. Frank Goodwin

I am not sure how much time we have to go into this, so I will be brief. Some young carers are in situations where their parent may have a serious and embarrassing complaint, such as alcoholism or a mental health or drug addiction issue. In that situation the parent might not be willing to identify their child as a carer, which is a concern. We started a young carers project and met some young carers whose lives were enhanced by caring because the caring they gave was in a positive environment that did not interfere with their schooling or social life. The caring they provided was complementary to that. While these carers grow up a little faster than the average young person is expected to, they see that as an advantage. However, the majority of young carers are quite disadvantaged. Research in places like Scotland, for example, demonstrates that some young carers in school are being slagged for being a carer. This is an embarrassment, stress and strain on top of their burden of responsibility.

I know the delegates have taken note of all the questions. I want to be fair to all Deputies, especially Deputies O'Mahony, Upton and Stanton. Perhaps Ms Duffy or Mr. Egan would like to respond to those.

Ms Clare Duffy

I want to pick up on a point made by Mr. Goodwin on young carers. We must ask whether we should identify young carers first before putting services in place or whether we should put services in place and then identify young carers. There must be a reason for young carers to identify themselves and to come forward. On carer's benefit, it would be useful if we could extend it beyond the two-year maximum. What tends to happen is that something happens suddenly and people find themselves in a situation where they need to take time away from work to provide care. The first thing they think of is carer's benefit and whether they have a right to that initial support. It would be helpful if, at the end of two years on that benefit there was an option for a review.

Mr. Frank Goodwin

I wish to comment briefly on that point. The fact that these child carers get the initial two-year benefit because they are full-time carers gives us the opportunity to find or identify them. The number involved is not huge, so we should identify them and use some common sense in planning for the future. Within the last six months of that two years, the position may change and the relative for whom they are caring may pass away. On the other hand, although the situation is serious, the person being cared for may live for years. Therefore, during those six months, there is space and time to plan. This would be better than waiting and suddenly finding that the benefit has ended and they are not eligible for the carer's allowance, which would bring extra trauma on top of the full burden of care.

Mr. Enda Egan

I want to come back on some issues Deputy O'Mahony raised. On the question of carer's allowance and the number of carers, the issue arising currently, based on anecdotal evidence, is that the numbers of people applying for carer's allowance is increasing and there are more people applying than ever before. The view of the Department is that this may be driven by the fact that people who are unemployed currently are looking at the various social welfare payments to see which might be higher than what they are getting. Anecdotal evidence also suggests that significant numbers are being refused the allowance because the person for whom they are caring does not require full-time care. We could almost assure applicants who come to us who want to apply for the allowance that it will be four months before they get a response, the response will be "No" and they will have to appeal that, which will take another four months. Therefore, we tell people that it will be at least eight months before the issue is resolved. The anecdotal evidence is that people are getting knocked back on the basis that the person for whom they are caring does not require full-time care. The major anomaly in this regard is that we have come across cases where people are on carer's benefit — something they cannot get unless the person for whom they are caring requires full-time care — but when the two years are up and they apply for carer's allowance, they are turned down because the person for whom they are caring does not require full-time care. That is an issue, but the Department is adamant that this does not happen. We need to analyse the latest statistics to give a credible response to it but it would appear at the moment there is a definite and real trend.

On the point made about the Government's policy to ensure that people are cared for in their own homes, carers are the ones who turn the policy into practice and make it happen. However, right across the country, there have been reductions in the home help service in particular and in some areas of the country, as in Cork, it is impossible to get home help. This is the case in certain parts of the country at the moment. It makes no sense because what has happened is that the policy and practice are moving further apart at a fairly alarming rate. What has happened in the Brothers of Charity in Limerick is happening right around the country and there will be more such instances. I note that trends are starting to appear and one trend is that social workers are being taken away from elderly care services and placed into child services.

I refer to one issue which is within the tourism remit of this committee. Deputy Stanton will be familiar with this issue. A male carer rang me as I travelled to the committee meeting this morning. His wife is in a wheelchair. They went to stay in a hotel for a certain event. They were accommodated on the fifth floor of the hotel which required the use of the lift. However, if a fire were to break out, they would be unable to use the lift. None of the new hotels built in the recent past were required to put wheelchair-accessible rooms on the ground floor. One is dependent on the hotel's evacuation policy and that it will provide staff to bring a person in a wheelchair down by the stairs in the event of an emergency. This does not make sense because it is a very simple issue to deal with at the planning policy stage. I ask the committee to support our views in this regard.

I thank Mr. Egan and his colleagues for their attendance and I thank members for their questions. There are some very practical issues to be considered such as parking and access for wheelchair-users in hotels. We made specific commitments to assist the Carers Association over the next weeks and months. We will pursue the national carers strategy. It has been a very useful meeting. We will work closely with the association in this important area.

Before we adjourn I ask members to approve the minutes of the sub-committee dealing with the 20-year plan on the Irish language which has had its final meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.20 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 14 July 2010.
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