Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT díospóireacht -
Thursday, 20 Oct 2005

Road Safety: Presentations.

Road safety is a matter of concern to all of us. Members appreciate the witnesses' attendance at the joint committee to discuss the various issues which impact on road safety. Opening statements and some background information from each of the witnesses have been circulated. I welcome Assistant Commissioner Eddie Rock of the Garda Síochána, Inspector Con O'Donoghue of the Garda national traffic bureau, Mr. Eddie Shaw, chairman, and Mr. Brian Farrell senior communications officer, of the National Safety Council, and Mr. Harry Cullen, senior project manager road safety, and Mr. Eugene O'Connor, head of project management and engineering, of the National Roads Authority.

I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I propose that we hear a short statement from each of the delegates which will be followed by a question and answer session. Is that agreed? Agreed. I invite Assistant Commissioner Rock to commence his presentation.

Assistant Commissioner Eddie Rock

As we submitted briefing documents to the joint committee yesterday evening, I will confine my remarks to the more pertinent issues. High visibility and intercept enforcement points can play a pivotal role in creating a compliance culture in the area of road traffic legislation generally. It is essential that an enforcement policy is in place which, among other benefits, will encourage such compliance.

There is scope for a more structured approach. On my appointment, I recognised the need to develop a better system of enforcement. We began to place individuals in strategic positions as part of our road traffic enforcement strategy. Following the collection of data, a wide range of issues were examined and analysed. We must bear in mind that almost half of all fatal collisions occur on national roads, although they form a mere 6% of the total road network. Some 35% of speed related fatal collisions occur on such roads. National roads account for 30% of all speed related injury collisions.

Following appropriate consultation with local authorities, we selected 30 locations within each division for specific intercept enforcement measures. It was our intention that they would be conducted safely from the point of view of our own members as well as the public. The aim of the process was to put in place an agreed template of clearly identifiable intercept locations to ensure enforcement intercepts were planned in a systematic and co-ordinated way. For example, we set out well in advance the dates and times when particular locations would receive attention. It is a measurable process in which our resources are used to best advantage. Priority is given in our enforcement policy and the intercept locations to the detection of drink driving offences, the wearing of seat belts and speed. Another area of focus is the weight of heavy goods vehicles and other aspects of the road haulage industry.

Drink driving presents one of the greatest problems on our roads and is responsible for the greatest number of fatalities. Based on research conducted elsewhere, it may account for 150 deaths per year. It is a priority area in our action plan. All of our objectives have the aim of reducing the number of deaths. The action plan for 2005 aims to increase policing in this area by15%. The increase in detection of drink drivers currently stands at 15% to 16%. The Louth-Meath and Donegal divisions have caused some difficulty this year. So far this year, there have been 37 deaths in the Louth-Meath division and 27 in the Donegal division. There have been upwards of 1,200 arrests for drink driving which is not to say there will be 1,200 prosecutions as some of those arrested may not have breached the legal limit. That is indicative of what is happening.

That said, the compliance culture is not what we would like. We do not appear to be having the desired effect, despite the high priority given to the issue and the deployment of significant resources. Other factors come into play such as the licensing laws and the availability of alcohol. We must not forget the personal responsibility everyone bears in this regard. Society has a role to play and a change in attitude to alcohol could help reduce the significant number of young people killed on our roads. It is the responsibility of parents to give advice and assist and encourage their children.

I will move on to the issue of speed. We have supplied documentation on how our resources will increase in the next few years. As our resources increase we will target dangerous driving more specifically. We are all aware of the downright ignorant behaviour and dangerous driving of some motorists. I refer, for example, to motorists passing out coming up to bends or on double white lines or those who cut in on other motorists. As resources increase we will give more attention to these areas. At present, it is difficult to marry this approach with our high visibility strategy.

I hope the public is aware of our increased presence on the roads. I discussed the matter with the Commissioner and we intend to increase the number of unmarked vehicles. As we all know, the presence of a marked Garda car will prevent dangerous driving. Having said that, incidents can occur out of sight not far from where marked cars are stationed. However, only a small number of individuals are involved in such driving. The majority of the motoring public are compliant.

A decision has been made to outsource the operation of speed cameras. It is my responsibility to prepare the request for tender in this regard. I presume the legislation will be introduced at some point. It is not within my competency.

That is an overview of the issues involved. Additional issues are raised in the documentation and there will be an opportunity to discuss them further.

Mr. Eddie Shaw

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to come before the joint committee, to which we have submitted documentation. I will summarise my submission and ask the committee to bear with me as I edit what I have prepared. I am looking for its help in removing the single biggest block to the Government's road safety strategy achieving its full potential. That is my purpose.

Approximately 380 people will die on our roads this year. We also estimate that approximately 3,000 will be seriously injured. That is 144 deaths and 1,200 serious injuries more than should occur. We know exactly what we should do to prevent this as it is clearly set out in the Government's strategy document. Not alone that, but doing so would also deliver economic and social benefits to the Exchequer, the Government and the community. The question is why we will not invest the resources in a planned and timely manner to achieve this aim.

Governments can work successfully. I have set out some examples such as the smoking ban, as well as the smokeless fuel ban in Dublin which was introduced from a health point of view in the early 1990s. In these cases policy was focused on the desired outcome and made to work but the same cannot be said of the Government's road safety strategy, although what has been implemented has saved lives and reduced the number of serious injuries. However, it is nothing like as successful as it should be.

The success has come from a sequence of actions which I have set out for the committee which have been put in train in recent years. These have resulted in a 20% to 30% reduction in fatalities and serious injuries and consequently significant gains for the health sector and other areas.

Within this success lies spectacular failure. This, however, is not an exercise in blaming or criticising the Government alone. The failure in this case is more serious because it challenges every elected politician. It is a chronic failure of process and a fatally flawed approach which results in things not getting done. It is an ineffective and inefficient process. I highlight the issue of road safety because it requires an investment programme. In budgetary terms, one is required to invest money up-front through the Departments of Transport, Justice, Equality and Law Reform, and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The benefits flow later to the Departments of Heath and Children, Social and Family Affairs, Enterprise, Trade and Employment and Finance. However, there is no process that will recognise this. Road safety is treated simply as an annual cost. There is no budget for it, no one measures the benefits or joins up the thinking, and no one is responsible or accountable. There is simply no will, management or process. There are many examples of this, which I have set out for the committee. The lack of a process is why 140 people will die needlessly on our roads this year and why 1,200 will suffer serious injury.

On 13 July this year the Government announced it would set up a road safety authority. This will be good as that authority will assume responsibility for a range of road safety-related activities. It has the potential to improve radically the management and implementation of the Government's road safety strategy, but for this to happen it must operate in a radically different legal and operational context, specifically in regard to its governance, autonomy, funding, staff and systems. In other words, the process that will support the authority will have to change if it is to be successful. I see no evidence that this change will occur.

I would be failing in my role as chairman of the National Safety Council and failing to use the experience I have gained in the past six years in this area if I did not put this matter clearly before the committee. The risk is that the road safety authority will simply become another administrative construct, very much as the National Safety Council is today, trapped in a failed and fatally flawed process which in itself is corrupt. Just as one would describe a computer programme as corrupt, it does not do what it sets out to do — it has no integrity.

I am seeking the help of the committee to remove this block because it has the authority and ability to do so. My remarks are not a criticism of the Government alone. The process failure is something which every elected politician is aware of and tolerates or supports either by silence or acquiescence. It is the failure that results from good people doing nothing. It is a flawed process that lends itself to the game of political football and point-scoring. In so far as it has been used in respect of road safety, it is wrong. If elected members continue to do as I have outlined, they will be playing politics with the lives of people, some of whom will die as they play. They are part of the problem and part of the solution.

I express these views today because the Chairman and committee members are agents of change. They have the authority and ability to effect change. For a road safety programme to be successful, we need a budgetary process that is investment-based and not regarded as an annual cost; a multi-year capital and current budget that matches the delivery term of the policy project; a point of individual responsibility and accountability that recognises the cross-departmental costs and benefits; a decision-making structure that recognises that no single Minister has the authority to deliver the complete road safety policy; an evaluation process that recognises and accounts for both costs and benefits, both monetary and social; and an effective audit process. If the committee provides all these, specifically in regard to road safety policy, it will save hundreds of lives and prevent thousands of serious injuries. Benefits will flow directly to the Exchequer, the Government and the community.

The National Roads Authority welcomes this opportunity to meet the members of the committee to discuss the important matter of road safety. The authority's primary function under the Roads Act 1993 is to secure the provision of a safe and efficient network of national roads. The authority was set a specific agenda regarding its safety remit in the Government's Road Safety Strategy 1998-2002. The authority completed all the tasks assigned to it in the strategy and exceeded certain targets, such as addressing the high the number of high-risk accident locations for which mitigation measures were to be implemented.

The authority's current activities in regard to road safety are dictated primarily by the Government's latest road safety strategy covering the period 2004 to 2006. A number of measures within the strategy relate directly to the authority's work. These include the implementation of low-cost remedial measures at 240 locations on national roads; the development of higher cost accident remedial measures at 20 locations on the national roads; the implementation of traffic calming schemes at 60 locations on national roads; a review of the collision history at the high accident locations identified in the NRA's report thereon published in 2002; the determination of appropriate treatment for each location where the road has been a factor in the collisions; conducting comprehensive national speed and seat belt surveys in 2005; reviewing the 1996-97 accident remedial measures programme to assess its effectiveness; evaluating traffic calming schemes initiated in 1997 and 1998 to determine their safety benefits; participation in EuroRAP, the European comparative road safety performance project; participation in the SARTRE survey; developing initiatives in respect of "Forgiving Roadsides"; and continued implementation of road safety audits of new roads as part of the strategy to further enhance road safety standards. The authority is on target to carry out all these tasks over the three-year lifespan of the strategy. I have circulated a tabular statement that lists full details on the progress made in respect of each of these activities.

The anticipated total spend on road safety strategy in 2005 is €40 million. The authority manages major road works schemes proactively, but the planning and implementation of those works that form part of the accident remedial measures programme are principally a matter for local authorities, reflecting their functions and responsibilities as statutory road authorities under the Roads Act 1993.

In addition to the specific road to safety strategy measures, other safety related initiatives being pursued by the authority include signing and lining programmes, on which we are spending over €I0 million this year; managing the accident database and publication of annual road collision facts; a winter maintenance programme called Icecast, involving 54 weather stations nationally that give us predictions on where ice is likely to be — the local authorities have access to this information; the installation or retrofitting of crash barriers on inter-urban motorways and dual carriageways — we are spending €15 million thereon this year; and the development and piloting of 2 plus 1 road type — further information on this road type and the safety benefits it is expected to deliver can be found in the tabular statement I have circulated.

A recent independent study on Irish roads by Dr. Donncha O'Cinneide et al entitled Interurban Accident Rates By Road Type And Geometric Elements states that, in looking at fatal accidents, it can be seen that motorways are seven times safer than undivided two-lane roads. It is important in this context to point out that the authority’s major programme of works in upgrading the network of national roads will produce a projected saving of over 50 lives per annum as a consequence of the higher standard and better safety record of the roads that are being constructed.

It is possible that a number of the authority's current functions in the safety area will be transferred to the new road safety authority, including managing the accident database, publishing the road collision facts and other safety research functions. However, the NRA will continue to be an important player in promoting road safety through the engineering dimension of our road design and construction work, our road safety audit practices and our targeted programme of remedial measures at high-risk accident locations.

I want to ask one or two questions before I open the discussion to the members. Is anybody in a position to state exactly how many of the accidents that have taken place in the past two years are drug-related and drink-related? We sometimes hear suggestions that accidents are in these categories although they may actually be related to speeding or careless driving. Many people seem to believe that fatalities arising from driving under the influence of drink or drugs are not always fully related to the public. This worries them and they would prefer if it were made quite clear, when statements are being issued, that certain fatalities are drink-related or drug-related. That can be traumatic for families who are bereaved and is probably a sensitive issue. It might, however, make those who do this regularly think before they drive under the influence of drink or drugs.

I am also concerned about driver education. One is regarded as a fully fledged driver within six months of receiving a provisional licence. Should there be a place on the curriculum in second level schools for education in driving and road use? It is a civic duty for people to know how to use the road as a driver, pedestrian or cyclist. It is a common sight to see people step off footpaths without looking left or right, causing one driver to jam on the brakes and another car to hit the rear of the first car. This is a matter of education.

Speed cameras have been found to be defective in another jurisdiction not too far away. According to an article in the Daily Mail last Saturday there is a major question about the effectiveness of radar guns. The outsourcing of speed camera operation could become an industry. As Assistant Commissioner Rock is involved in drafting the regulations for the cameras I do not expect him to comment on this issue. When the outsourcing takes place there should be some safeguards to protect motorists.

Gardaí are quite tolerant and will allow an excess speed of between 5% and 10% of the limit, which is acceptable to everybody. When the process is outsourced, however, people might be prosecuted for driving at a speed of only 1 kilometre over the limit. That would have a detrimental effect on road users.

I thank our visitors for their presentations. There are always more questions than answers on this issue. It came to my attention in the response to a parliamentary question about toxicology reports and investigation of accidents that the investigation procedure is not the same for every accident. The level of information recorded about the causes depends on whether there is a fatality or will be a prosecution.

Everybody has an opinion on the factors contributing to accidents. Do we have a system that records all the circumstances of an accident, including whether drink or drugs were involved or the road surface was a factor? If we are to make policy we need absolute information. Primary causes may change over time and it is important to have firm information. Does the Garda Síochána have the resources to gather that kind of information? Does it have access to the necessary expertise for post mortems, toxicology reports and so on?

What is the practical difference between the traffic division that existed last year and the traffic corps we now have, which is due to recruit 33 more members? What changes make the traffic corps more effective than the traffic division, apart from the nice luminous green jackets worn by members of the corps which serve as a deterrent?

The culture of driving here must change. That culture is largely informed by official policy and the law. When the law is not implemented there is a significant impact. This submission states that 80% of drivers break the speed limit in what was the 40 mph zone. That is proof of a major disregard for the law. Unless there is a significant increase in enforcement this will not change.

The Garda Síochána is always stretched in terms of resources but it seemed the penalty points system would release gardaí and offer an almost foolproof automated system of tracking speeding and putting a stop to it. According to a response which I received on Tuesday to a parliamentary question, PULSE is not yet live for the fixed charge processing system but it is hoped that it will go live next year.

Assistant Commissioner Rock said that the operation of the fixed charge penalty point is "cumbersome". It was intended to be automated. Will the PULSE system go live on this process next April, and be rolled out nationwide?

In regard to the outsourcing of the fixed charge system, the location of cameras etc. must be the responsibility of the Garda Síochána, and its primary purpose must be road safety, not the raising of revenue. Can the Assistant Commissioner reassure me on these points? Outsourcing for its own sake is a waste of time.

I too thank the visitors for their presentations. I am not sure what the Garda Síochána's attitude is to random breath testing. The previous road safety strategy, 1998-2002, stated: "The Government do not envisage unqualified application of random breath testing in Ireland within the period of the Strategy given its possible negative implications for wider public attitudes to and cooperation with the Gardaí."

That is an extraordinary view. What is the official position of the Garda Síochána on random breath testing which is common in all other countries and which many of us agree needs to be introduced here?

The target set in the road safety strategy stated that the Garda would check 11.1 million vehicles per year. Recently I looked for figures on this but they are still not available for 2004. Will the delegation provide the committee with those figures? It is one thing to have a glossy strategy with targets while it is another to meet them with monitoring of progress or otherwise. In respect of speed, how many vehicles were checked last year? Why is it that in October 2005 we still do not have official figures for 2004? Can we expect that within a reasonable period after each year of a strategy we will have that basic information?

When a Garda traffic corps was first mooted, the idea was there would be a corps of people working in the traffic management area, particularly in cities, who would do the work the Garda does in the lead-up to Christmas with freeflow operations and the like. They would keep traffic moving, checking for offences, such as going into yellow boxes and breaking red lights. The Government ran into some difficulty in establishing such a traffic corps. It then decided to get out of that promise by simply renaming the traffic division within the Garda as a traffic corps. There is some confusion about the actual task that needed to be done. We were told approximately 600 people were to be allocated to the traffic corps. In response to recent tragedies the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform announced a doubling of that figure. I am still not sure where he will find those gardaí, given that there is so much pressure on the Garda for increased policing in respect of anti-social activity and serious crime in urban areas. How many are actually involved in the Garda traffic corps? What is the roll-out date for the additional numbers for the traffic corps and when will it reach the 1,200 personnel announced by the Minister?

I am reticent after Mr. Shaw's comments yesterday in which he seemed to castigate politicians for raising issues on road safety and turning them into political footballs. Our role is to hold the Government to account and highlight failures at committees, in the Dáil and the media. We do not have the authority to deliver on promises made, as that is the Government's responsibility. It is the Opposition's responsibility to ensure targets are met and responsibility is taken. In September it was announced there was to be an annual review of the current road safety strategy. In fulfilling our role in ensuring the strategy is delivered on, we depend on the agencies involved to produce the annual report and provide us with information. When can we expect the annual report on the first year of the road safety strategy? A target was set for a reduction in serious injuries on the road. What was the target?

The delegation spoke about the urgent need for the establishment of a road safety authority, with clout and its own budget. I support this idea. With the council's experience in this area, has it been in consultation with the Minister for Transport on the setting up of such an authority? When checking all stages of the Government's promised legislation, I could not see any reference to a road safety authority. I will ask the Minister about this at the next opportunity in the Dáil. Has the council a view on how serious the Government is on establishing this authority?

Useful information on traffic accidents has been provided such as the times that accidents tend to happen and the ages of drivers involved. Is information collected on the status of drivers involved in road accidents? In recent years, a disrespect has developed for driver testing because of the authorities' inability to provide testing within a reasonable time. This is due to the failure of the authorities to have any policing of this issue. Many young people believe that one only has to buy a car for €600 and off one goes. There are 400,000 drivers on provisional driving licences, while some people do not even bother to get one. Is there any information that shows a correlation between driver status and accident history?

This has been a useful and vigorous exchange which I welcome. I disagree fundamentally with the emphasis placed by Deputy Olivia Mitchell on increased in enforcement to solve the problem. I do not believe for a minute it would do so. What is needed is a huge increase in respect by road-users for the rules of the road. This cannot be achieved as long as there is a chaotic, incoherent and unsustainable system of speed limits. No one has respect for speed limits. Why should they? The limits are incoherent and at the mercy of every different local authority. We all know of situations where one has to reduce from 60 km/h to 40 km/h. One will often see speed traps at these points which have damn all to do with road safety. The respect of the public must be earned. Going about this through regulating speed is a classic way to induce disrespect and contempt.

A national approach to road safety is needed with coherent, consistent and acceptable speed limits, not the melange of nonsense we have at the moment. When driving, I have had the experience of having to reduce my speed to an unrealistic level. However, I have often been passed out by a car on the right and a truck on the inside lane with someone flashing me from behind. That does not suggest everything is right with the speed limit system. Bring respect back for the rules of the road. I endorse the Chairman's comments on starting in the schools. There must be an educational programme. However, we must have a system that we can all respect. We do not have this and it is unrealistic to expect people to respect the speed limits when they are so absurd, chaotic and inconsistent.

I found Mr. Shaw's contribution refreshing in the extreme. He was blunt and undiplomatic, exactly what is needed. Many are dying unnecessarily. It is interesting to consider Mr. Shaw's language: "fatally flawed", "corrupt", "no integrity". That is a reproach to all of us and this committee should take very seriously the clear guidelines. This speech was not just an attack on the Government, but a sustained critique of the system, which I welcome. It was not merely negative. Mr. Shaw presented us with six points, including budget lines and auditing. The committee would be well advised to take them seriously.

We need to get all the information we can on road accidents. We have had several discussions in the Seanad where some absurd items were raised. Heavy goods vehicles were mentioned. Such vehicles were never involved in the particular circumstances discussed in the Seanad. This was used as an alibi.

While I do not want to talk about recent specific cases, I am interested in hearing comments. If I cannot wait, I will read later what is said. Many accidents have similar characteristics or ingredients. Every week there are accidents which have at least three or four of these ingredients. They involve young people and occur in the early hours of Sunday morning while returning from a night club. There may be too many people in the car and they may be intoxicated by drink or drugs. They drive high powered cars while holding provisional licences. Any two or more of these ingredients create a recipe for disaster. Sometimes all of them are present.

People are afraid or abashed to say this, which is very understandable in human terms because we know that in the aftermath of a fatal automobile crash, there are grieving relatives and that the last thing they need or want, personally and emotionally, is to have their noses rubbed in the fact that young people, to whom one's heart goes out, are sometimes responsible for the tragic circumstances. As several of my colleagues said, the way around this may be to obtain clear background information, to look at the criteria and see how we can address the issue.

Mr. Shaw

I will deal with the Chairman's comments first because they were very pertinent. We do not have good data. It is one of the strategy failures that we do not have a central point where research is collected and data collated. We have some data from the National Roads Authority, the Garda, the insurance industry and the hospitals' in-patient data system, but there is no single central point where everything is co-ordinated. For example, we do not have the equivalent of what is in place in Victoria, Monash University's accident research centre, or in Queensland University, where there is a group whose sole responsibility is the objective collection and assessment of data. However, we have enough data to indicate what we should be doing to implement the safety strategy. I ask people not to refer to collisions as accidents. They are not. We use the word "accident" a lot. Collisions are caused and in 93% of cases the cause is human behaviour, primarily of the driver. We have enough information to tell us what to do, but there is a deficiency.

The Chairman is right to say driver education must begin in schools. There are many good examples. I tend to use Australia as an example because it is the best one I have seen. We currently have a trial programme called Steer Clear being run by eight local authorities as part of our effort to fulfil our obligations under the strategy with regard to community education, starting in the schools. We also have a programme running in primary schools but need to do much more. Steer Clear is our first programme. It was recommended by Professor Ray Fuller of Trinity College, Dublin. It is the first programme we have seen which adopts a comprehensive approach to safety education for children aged about 16,17 and 18 years and takes them right through an on-road or off-road driving experience.

Deputy Mitchell raised a number of issues. We have enough data but they could be of better quality. Undoubtedly, driving culture presents a problem, but it reflects the fact that behaviour is the primary cause. The strategy document is excellent. It sets out precisely the causes and counter-measures. Influencing behaviour is the area where the safety council works best with the Garda. We set out to make the moral argument as to why it is good to behave oneself on the road to get the public on side. This prepares them to accept the reasons enforcement must take place because people will not take such action voluntarily. The stick is necessary.

A number of observations were made about privatised camera usage. There are many locations where one can see examples. The United Kingdom is the worst example, from which we must learn. The safety council has clearly stated that if one is to bring forward safety camera strategy, privatised or not, it is essential to inform the public in advance why one is doing it and how it is to be done. It is a consultative process. That is where the United Kingdom got it seriously wrong. It has no equivalent of a safety council which spreads the message and gets the public on side. It is very simple. One simply tells the truth and gives the facts.

There are far better examples elsewhere. In the United Kingdom Essex probably has the best example of a camera programme. There are 43 constabulary units in the United Kingdom, each one, effectively, independent. In some rural areas chief constables said they did not need a camera strategy because it would not solve their problems. Different attitudes were taken in the United Kingdom. In Ireland, however, we need a camera strategy. In Victoria, Australia, the operation of cameras is privatised while in Queensland, a couple of thousand miles away, it is not, but both systems work because they were well planned, organised and delivered and the authorities got the public on side first. There is tremendous confidence in the systems. However, one will always have a strong, vocal minority objecting to the use of a camera system.

I am taken aback by Deputy Shortall's comments. I made my comments out of respect for committee members as professional politicians. I am not a politician. Each committee member must aspire to being in government, as well as fulfilling the obligations to be met while in opposition to take the Government to task. I am a poor communicator because, regrettably, I have failed to get across to the committee that there is a much bigger problem than simply failing to achieve targets or achieve what someone has set out in a programme for Government. This problem traverses many Government activities and as a result, specifically with regard to road safety, people die needlessly. That is the only point I am trying to make. The process does not work.

With respect, even in opposition, committee members miss the point that in many policy cases, when it comes to road safety in particular, one is looking at the engineering equivalent of a suspension bridge, with two locations on either side of the river and someone forgetting to build the middle piece. That is what is happening. The strategy is incomplete and incoherent. It has no integrity and does not work. We have tried within the safety council, the high level group and the Department of Transport, by means of the system in place, to voice this view and have the strategy changed. We have failed. I expect this is the last time I will appear before the committee in my current capacity, since my term expires on 31 December, and I am not unhappy about that. I left the committee with the single biggest issue that I have encountered in the last six years. I am astonished at the response.

Perhaps I might clarify this. Is Mr. Shaw saying that the single most important thing is to establish the new road safety authority?

Mr. Shaw

No.

: In that case, perhaps Mr. Shaw might clarify.

Mr. Shaw

Senator Norris picked it up. The six final points that I put to the committee are the most basic requirements of any policy if it is to work across different Departments. Setting up a road safety authority on its own will not work unless a process to support it is in place. If that is not the case, the road safety authority will be in exactly the same position as the National Safety Council today, what I call an "administrative construct". It is charged with doing things through legislation and in a Government document policy document, but it is not funded or enabled to do those things across the Departments where it requires support, since it works through a single Department, that of the Minister for Transport, who, in fairness, cannot be responsible or accountable for the savings made in the health or welfare budgets.

Unless one has a working process that recognises that, just as the National Safety Council cannot work effectively, neither will the road safety authority. That is the larger point that I make. I admit that it is a broad point, but it is fundamental. I use the road safety strategy as an example, since it is crystal clear how it must be operated. If the members consider the six points I have given them, they will find that, to a great extent, they will explain many of the current policy failures that are being highlighted and publicised. It certainly explains the failures of many IT projects. That is my broad point.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

I will take the points in the order in which I have jotted them down. The Chairman raised the primary cause regarding drink driving. The Government's strategy of 1998 to 2002 states that alcohol has been identified as a contributory factor in at least 25% of all traffic collisions and 33% of fatal ones. Those figures refer to 2002, but I have no reason to believe there has been any significant shift since.

Are those the most recent statistics available?

Assistant Commissioner Rock

Those are the most recent ones available to me here. There may be more recent ones.

It is essential that driver education be part of the school curriculum. So many young people are being killed during or soon after leaving primary school that it is crucial. It would not be a significant impingement on the education system for us to include some time for that. Ideally, pupils would be sitting tests on the rules of the road and related issues.

The outsourcing of speed cameras is exercising many minds, and there is good reason for that. I have discussed it before, and the Government has approved a report recently presented to it. I have previously discussed it with some of my colleagues. A public awareness programme is an essential precursor to the introduction of the cameras. We must have the public on our side. Having read about it, I feel that it accepts that we should have a system.

Second, there must be a sensible, even-handed balance between the overt and covert placing of cameras. The Garda Síochána wants the public to get away from the idea that we are jumping out from behind bushes or bus shelters; that is not the way. In any event, in deciding where to place the cameras, we will consider the issues mentioned today, such as the times of deaths. Saturday mornings were mentioned by one speaker. There are deaths on Saturday mornings between 2 a.m. and 4 a.m., when the volume of traffic is perhaps 2% or 3%. That is when we must increase resources and target speed cameras to reduce deaths. That is an essential part of it.

The figure of 11 million is a target. Since the resources should first be targeted in a covert manner at early mornings and weekends, when there is a lower volume of traffic, that must be an issue. It should be considered and balanced against that of the 11 million.

Regarding traffic accidents and their investigation, in our organisation we have very clear instructions and a template in our directions to people regarding investigatory standards. Of course, in an organisation of 12,000, there will be some slippage. That happens in any organisation in which human beings are involved. However, we have a training process, which has already commenced, whereby we train one person in every division in the forensic investigation of traffic collisions. It will be certified by the City and Guilds of London. That is a significant issue, and personnel trained to that level will then be available to every divisional officer to use as he or she so wishes, in particular in the investigation of fatal accidents.

I was asked the difference since the launch of the traffic corps in its current form. There has been a different approach. Earlier I mentioned the necessity of a completely systematic and co-ordinated approach to enforcement. We have had that in place since I took over. When I did so, one of the first issues I raised was putting a co-ordinated system of enforcement in place in a planned, strategic and measurable way. That is among the most significant issues, and it underlines the benchmark of any enforcement policy, which is to be seen to be out enforcing the law rather than where people cannot see the reason.

It has been said that the PULSE system is incompatible with the courts' computer system. I mentioned previously that there is no delay in the introduction of penalty points as far as the Garda Síochána is concerned. The compatibility of the PULSE system with the courts system is not an issue. We are ready to move on the penalty points system once it has been released. It is a win-win situation for everyone. There will be fewer cases or prosecutions before the courts. We will have fewer of our people before the courts, a constant issue. On the one hand, we are trying to be visible on the street, but on the other hand our people are in court to give evidence. I take the point that PULSE will not be compatible until April, but we have discussed that with them and explained the situation. It is not a hindering factor in the introduction of the penalty points system. There will be a further gain when PULSE is "re-platformed", as the IT people say. I believe that is what is happening in that regard.

Someone mentioned the location of cameras and the 11 million, and I think that we have addressed that.

The assistant commissioner said in his presentation that the operation of the fixed-charge penalty points system, as it stood, was cumbersome. When will that change, and will it be altered so that it is no longer so?

Assistant Commissioner Rock

I understand that when the PULSE system is automated in March or April, it will be less cumbersome. As it is, a significant amount of manual work is required.

That was my point. It cannot be rolled out because the cameras will produce too much evidence to be processed until that happens.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

On the contrary, it can be rolled out and we are ready for that.

Can it be rolled out countrywide?

Assistant Commissioner Rock

It can, absolutely, and we are ready to do that.

It will not happen until April, however.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

It is true that the IT system will not be compatible until March or April or thereabouts. However, as regards the roll out of the system, this is being forestalled pending the signing of a contract with An Post. An Garda Síochána is not responsible for the delay.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

We are ready, whenever the process is started.

Will that mean speeding charges will not be thrown out by the courts for outdated warrants, as happened recently? A number of cases were dismissed in the District Court because the forms used to issue summonses were five years out of date. They had not been updated in line with the legislation.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

I am not familiar with that. Certainly——

I am told that in a recent court case a document was presented citing the 1997 regulations instead of the most recent legislation.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

I am not familiar with that.

The summons failed to cite the Act under which it was being issued. It should have been under the new regulations.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

I apologise to the committee. I am aware of that. Mention was made on the summons to section 21 of the 2004 Act, which our lawyers tell us was not necessary. Different decisions have been made since then and that is not regarded as a benchmark decision which changes everything thereafter. It is a decision which stands on its own.

The Garda Síochána welcomes the concept of random breath testing. As the committee knows, we can breath test somebody or avail of the provisions under section 49 to do with drink driving. When a person is involved in an accident or has committed or is suspected of an offence, the legislation is applied. We welcome the concept of random breath testing and its introduction is under discussion. I have no doubt that it would certainly help to reduce road deaths. That is all I need to say on that. The Commissioner has expressed the view that the Garda Síochána would welcome random breath testing.

Would the Garda be able to provide a higher level of enforcement, by random testing, stopping people on the street, for example? Where will the extra resources come from if random breath testing is to be employed?

Assistant Commissioner Rock

While we are talking about the traffic corps specifically, responsibility for all issues to do with traffic enforcement and legislation lies with the entire Garda organisation. As regards the allocation of resources, we have moved from 531 last year to the present complement of 565. The figure will rise to 860 in 2006 and 1,030 in 2007, reaching 1,200 in 2008. That is the agreed projected allocation of resources for the traffic corps. There will, of course, be increased opportunities then to refocus our people and resources in a better way right across the 24-hour traffic system. However, it behoves all members of the Garda Síochána to enforce the legislation, including random breath testing, should that be introduced.

I welcome the delegation and in particular Mr. Shaw and his contribution. We might not like it on this side of the room, but it has certainly given rise to robust debate and gives us much to think about. The onus is now on us to deal with the points he has made. I congratulate him and thank him for his honesty and bluntness. I wish him well, wherever the next year may take him.

I have a question for the Garda. A statistic was given which indicated that there were 1,200 arrests in the Louth, Meath and Donegal areas for drunken driving. The Louth-Meath area has had 37 fatalities so far this year and Donegal has had 27. As I live in the Louth-Meath division I am particularly interested in it. How many of the 1,200 arrests for drunken driving led to prosecutions? In other words, how many of those got through the processes and how many of those prosecutions were successful? I have three very quick questions as regards where we go from here. I shall be obliged for the views of everybody on the question of mandatory disqualification for dangerous driving convictions and the power to confiscate defective vehicles after a collision. I should welcome views on restricted provisional licences both in terms of speed — as used to be the case, and perhaps still is, in Northern Ireland — and curfew. It has been suggested that a provisional licence should be restricted to specific hours of the day.

I had the opportunity to hear Mr. Shaw on "Oireachtas Report" last night. His contribution was very positive and I want to put a question to both the National Roads Authority and the Garda on this issue. I cannot find fault with any of Mr. Shaw's six major proposals and can see where he is coming from. There are so many moving parts to this. Based on what Mr. Shaw argues, it is obvious that everyone is not singing from the same hymn sheet.

Mindful of the Chairman's concerns about road safety and the overall objective of preventing deaths, do the Garda and the National Roads Authority accept what Mr. Shaw is saying? They are major players in this debate which is the reason they are here today. Do the participants in this area, who do the best they can given the environment they must work in, buy in to all this as well? From a personal viewpoint, I see much good in it.

It is very important that we try to have public support for whatever we decide. However, there will always be a cohort of people who take no notice of anything. It comes down to the fact that manners must be put on bad and mad drivers, however that is to be done. Not alone are they a problem to themselves, but also to innocent bystanders involved in so many of those collisions caused by human error. We think we have the profile of drivers at 4 a.m. on a Saturday when there are not many cars on the road. I am asked why it is not possible to intercept them at such an hour of the morning. It does not happen over a 24 hour period but over two to four hours. It is more or less known from where they originate, but for whatever reason they are not intercepted and the position is getting worse.

I am not in a position to evaluate what all of this costs or what it should cost. Based on what Mr. Shaw stated, I assume there will have to be a lot more money pumped into the system to arrive at the situation he would like and which certainly appeals to me. Can he give the committee an indication of this? He should put the six items together and quantify how much more finance needs to be pumped into the system, something we, as politicians, must get across to the taxpayer. If we want an integrated approach, more money needs to be spent, albeit in a different way.

I welcome the delegation, especially Mr. Shaw, whom I wish well in the future when his term of office concludes.

Besides the question posed by the Chairman and the intervention of Senator Norris, there was little mention of the scourge of young people killing themselves on the roads in the wake of the tragedy in County Donegal last week. Assistant Commissioner Rock made a passing reference to it, but it appears this is a huge part of the problem — young male drivers drinking late at night at weekends. Given the collective expertise and experience available, I had hoped there would be concrete suggestions. The young men of this country are killing themselves and many other innocent bystanders as they go on a rampage of drink driving. I was hoping there would be radical suggestions to deal with what is a very serious problem. Deputy Glennon touched on the possibility of a curfew, of restrictive provisional licences, and of detection by the Garda Síochána late at night at weekends. If young people take to the road late at night, they should know gardaí will be there waiting for them. At the moment they are not. That presents a problem. The message is sent that one has a good chance of slipping through the net. I am looking for concrete suggestions that we, as legislators, can put into force regarding young male drivers who account for a great proportion of those killing themselves and others on our roads.

I have more observations to make than questions to ask. I heard Mr. Shaw speak on this issue six months ago and must say he has fine-tuned where the blame lies. It is about integration and co-ordination.

Looking at the figures given today, the statistics are contradictory. There has been a threefold increase in the number of cars on the road since 1971, yet the number of fatalities has dropped by almost 50%. When one looks at the number of fatalities which occur between 2 a.m and 4 a.m., when only 2% of the total volume of traffic is on the road, one would expect the number of deaths to be lower, while one would expect deaths on the M50 every day of the week, but that is not the case. We allow people onto the road with provisional licences, having failed tests and with no insurance or tax. Why do we not move towards impounding vehicles? I would like to hear the view of the Garda on this. Would it support the impounding of vehicles with no insurance? There are estates across Dublin where people are afraid to drive because the local anecdotal evidence is that there are hundreds of cars which are not insured. The people concerned do not have respect for the law. Until we move to a situation where the process has integrity, we are lost.

The six points made by Mr. Shaw at the end of his presentation prove that we are already doing what must be done under the Government. On insurance, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment came together and in a short period insurance premiums fell following implementation of the PIAB report. The system can work. I do not believe any one Minister can be blamed. The issue is wider than transport. We must face up to this as legislators.

I commend Mr. Shaw on the work he has done in the past six years and the way in which he has framed the debate today. He mentions Australia as a good model. Does he agree we should consider the Swedish approach to road safety? It is based on a policy of zero tolerance. I think Mr. Shaw is correct not to use the word "accident". These are not accidents as they are almost scientifically predictable. We should, therefore, start with the Swedish principle that we want to eradicate completely unnecessary road deaths and maiming. Such an approach embodies what I believe Mr. Shaw is talking about. The implications of adopting such an approach would stretch into every aspect of Government policy.

I do not think we can impose curfews on young people, but we can look at options of planning and settlement, where we locate entertainment venues and how we link them with public transport facilities. We should not leave the matter as it stands in rural Ireland where, because of the dispersed population system we have adopted, people have no option but to drive a car. There is no alternative transport available from certain venues late at night. Perhaps the approach of adopting as a first principle a refusal to accept such deaths would require us to look at our whole planning system. Would the adoption of such a system also imply that, in the ten year transport plan soon to be published, we need to promote rail transport to bring about a reduction in the number of road deaths? Does the Swedish system fit in with Mr. Shaw's thinking?

I thank Mr. Shaw for the tremendous work he has done in recent years. His retirement at Christmas provides him with an ideal opportunity to become involved in politics. It is my first opportunity to congratulate Assistant Commissioner Rock on his appointment to what is a difficult job.

With regard to the investigation of road traffic accidents, I am glad to hear the assistant commissioner has sent or will send staff to the United Kingdom for training. The difficulty is that investigations happen only following fatal accidents. As a consequence, the National Roads Authority puts resources in place only for remedial action on roads where a fatal accident has occurred. We need to address these problems before fatal accidents occur. Will the assistant commissioner outline Garda plans to take a more proactive approach in regard to the causes of material damage accidents? Has the NRA plans to address the black spots throughout the country before fatalities occur? It is sad that we must wait for a fatality before local authorities are given the resources to address these problems.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

To respond to an earlier question, many arrests this year have resulted in prosecutions. I gave an approximate figure of 1,200 arrests. To clarify this, there were approximately 725 arrests for drink driving in Louth and Meath and approximately 375 in Donegal. Therefore, the figure is slightly less than the figure I gave of 1,200. Many of these cases would not yet have been processed but, from previous experience, approximately 90% of cases would end in prosecution.

What proportion of prosecutions are successful?

Assistant Commissioner Rock

I do not have that figure.

Can the assistant commissioner give an approximate figure or make a guess?

Assistant Commissioner Rock

I would say a very high proportion of prosecutions are successful because they are strenuously fought. I would think approximately 75% of prosecutions are successful.

The power to seize vehicles is provided for under section 41 of the Road Traffic Act 1994, which also provides for removal, storage and subsequent release of vehicles. Our biggest problem is the storage of vehicles. When the legislation was introduced, provision was not made for storage and Garda stations throughout the country are filled to choking with seized vehicles. While there is a quick release mechanism after six weeks, there is a problem in this regard. In 2004, 9,685 vehicles were seized under section 41 of the Act for having no insurance.

I take the point made in regard to young people killing themselves on the roads. However, as approximately 50% of victims are over 30 years of age, the problem is a wider one. There is an issue with regard to young drivers but the major issue concerns the use of alcohol, particularly among the young. This is not to suggest that any recent or high profile accident was a result of alcohol abuse by young people. There is an issue with regard to licence exemptions and drinking until 2.30 a.m. I was asked whether gardaí are intercepting those involved. A speaker referred to the fact that the number of deaths has reduced significantly since 1970 or 1971 whereas the number of vehicles on the roads has increased by more than 50%. It is not the case that we are not intercepting drivers; we are doing so, and the level of prosecutions reflects this. However, this does not mean we do not strive at all times to do more.

On the investigation of fatal accidents, we will hold further discussions with the National Roads Authority on exchanging more detailed information on the involvement of alcohol in accidents so the NRA will be able to make better informed decisions concerning engineering issues on the roads. The training of forensic collision investigators is taking place at the Garda training college at Templemore under the City and Guilds of London certification process.

Does the assistant commissioner agree with Mr. Shaw?

Assistant Commissioner Rock

I do not think that is appropriate. I am a law enforcement officer.

That is not fair, Deputy Connaughton. We must be fair.

Does the assistant commissioner have up-to-date figures from Garda inspections on the number of uninsured and untaxed cars ?

Assistant Commissioner Rock

I do not have a breakdown in that regard. I have provided the total figure seized under section 41. I do not have statistics on uninsured cars. A substantial number of prosecutions are taken with regard to uninsured vehicles but the figure of 9,685 vehicles refers to the number seized. Several criteria come under the provisions of the legislation but vehicles having no insurance is the major issue.

Will Mr. Shaw respond in regard to the suggestions on the restrictive licence, as well as on the mandatory disqualification?

We must move quickly as the clock is running down.

Mr. Shaw

I thank members for their concern about my future. I am only the non-executive chairman of the National Safety Council and have another life also. However, I appreciate the concerns.

National Safety Council research suggests there is overwhelming support and respect across the community for road safety in general, and for enforcement by the Garda Síochána, including all its activities in regard to random breath testing and speed cameras, where those activities can be directly connected to the saving of lives and prevention of injury. However, the comment on speed limits highlights the power of minority views. There is overwhelming regard for the existence of speed limits. When we converted to the metric system, the Automobile Association and another body were responsible for informing the Department of Transport of the location of difficult speeding areas. Only 60 to 70 specific areas of difficulty arose from thousands of speed limit areas. It is important to note the overall respect for road safety.

Some 90% of the activity of the National Safety Council is targeted at drivers aged under 30. However, there is no quick fix in this regard. We must begin working with primary school children and secondary school children. We must totally change what is currently known as the driving test programme — I hope the road safety authority will do this. The problem is rooted in an attitude of mind. One has to see the young driver issue as part of a more serious problem, which is exemplified in social issues involving the young. Whether we like it, while many of the young are excellent people, we have produced a minority who have no regard for responsibility and focus only on their rights. This is not just a road safety issue and it does not have a quick fix solution. It runs right through the education system and is a long-term as well as a short-term issue.

With regard to speed cameras, young driver fatalities will not be dealt with only through Garda enforcement measures. If that were to happen, it would require an extraordinary level of presence on regional and local roads at times when, as the assistant commissioner noted, traffic volumes are very low. This would result in a problem in resource allocation. It is a wider problem which committee members are right to raise.

There are many examples of best practice — I was taken to task on this issue by Deputy Ned O'Keeffe at yesterday's meeting of the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business. The Government generally seeks to look outside Ireland for best practice, for example, to Sweden, Finland, the Netherlands, the UK, the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Australia and New Zealand seem particularly relevant because they have issues in regard to attitude and behaviour similar to ours. However, as they have different cultures, legal systems and constitutions, we cannot just copy their systems. We must adopt and adapt. I take the committee's point and emphasise that there is work to be done in this regard.

Have I failed to answer any question?

I remind Mr. Shaw of two questions I put to him. Does he agree that mandatory disqualification should apply in the case of dangerous driving, as in the case of drunken driving? What is his view of restricted provisional licences for learner drivers in terms of speed and curfew?

Mr. Shaw

Mandatory disqualification is outside my area. However, it is important that the penalty is proportionate to the offence. This is an area in which we undoubtedly have much work to do. The objective must be to encourage greater compliance with the law.

The reality of driver training is that the system has remained largely unchanged in the last 20 years. There are good examples in other jurisdictions of what is called progression towards a licence, where new drivers do not even get a licence but a certificate which allows limited access to the road. Such systems are in place in the Netherlands and Australia. In parts of Australia, a zero blood alcohol level applies for learner drivers and professional drivers.

We must approach road safety as part of a joined-up process that is adequately resourced. I do not know how much the required changes will cost but research shows that for every euro spent in this area, seven, eight or ten are recouped through the reduction in loss of life and injury and the consequent decrease in health and welfare spending. It is probably one of the most cost effective policies for the Government to engage in and deliver.

Speaking on behalf of the National Safety Council, I found that members' questions and comments reflect a healthy interest in and understanding of the issues. I hope members will use their influence and authority to progress this agenda towards achieving much more than has been done heretofore.

I thank the delegations for their contributions to this important debate. The committee will continue to take an interest in road safety. Collectively we will continue to strive to reduce road fatalities and serious injuries. The committee will return to this subject early in the new year to assess the progress made in regard to the various suggestions.

I ask that the committee meet briefly in private session to consider the outcome of the meeting.

The joint committee went into private session at 11.22 a.m. and adjourned at 11.25 a.m. sine die.

Barr
Roinn