Joint Committee on Transport and Communications díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 4 Mar 2015

Western Rail Corridor: Discussion

Chairman

The purpose of this meeting is to engage with Iarnród Éireann on disused railway lines and with West-on-Track in regard to the western rail corridor. On behalf of the committee I welcome Mr. Don Cunningham, director of infrastructure and Mr. Niall Grogan, manager of CIE group property appearing on behalf of Iarnród Éireann and Mr. Colmán Ó Raghallaigh, Mr. Frank Dawson and Mr. Howard Knott of the Irish Exporters Association who are from West-on-Track.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the Chairman to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter to only qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I also advise them that any submission or opening statement made to the committee will be published on its website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or persons outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The presentations have been circulated to members and the witnesses may wish to refer to them briefly in their opening remarks so that we allow as much time as possible for questions.

I invite Mr. Don Cunningham to make his opening remarks.

Mr. Don Cunningham

In the presentation, I set out the position of Iarnród Éireann in the context of the national problem of underfunding. In the current multi-annual contract which provides subvention to Iarnród Éireann, there is no provision for funding the maintenance of abandoned, disused or closed lines. We support any substantial initiative that will help protect the preserves of those that will help increase passenger or freight services, in fact anything that can provide a sustainable increase to the operations of the railway. We have been engaging with groups such as West-on-Track with that objective in mind.

Chairman

Thank you Mr. Cunningham. I invite Mr. Colmán Ó Raghallaigh to make his presentation.

Mr. Colmán Ó Raghallaigh

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gcoiste as an gcuireadh teacht os comhair an choiste ar maidin.

I thank the Chairman and members for their invitation to appear before the joint committee. Let me introduce my colleagues Mr. Frank Dawson and Mr. Howard Knott, who is the director of logistics projects at the Irish Exporters Association. We have a brief PowerPoint presentation and Mr. Knott will follow with a few words. We will stick strictly to the text of the PowerPoint presentation in the initial phase.

West-on-Track is a voluntary community-based group. We work with local authorities and statutory bodies, including Iarnród Éireann to promote the redevelopment of the rail corridor that exists between Limerick and Sligo, through counties Clare, Galway and Mayo. West-on-Track was a member together with the local authorities of the McCann working group which recommended the phased re-opening of this route in 2005. The report also recommended further review of the Mayo to Sligo section.

This West-on-Track map shows the western rail corridor in red on the left hand side with the new section from Limerick to Galway clearly visible. West-on-Track has continued to promote the route and its services and supports Iarnród Éireann and Mayo industries in developing both passenger and freight business.

Though our formal role ended in 2005 on the completion of the McCann report and its presentation to Government, West-on-Track has contributed at every opportunity to public consultation by Government and its agencies on transport planning strategy. The section of the railway from Limerick to Ennis was reopened with a full passenger service as far back as 1988. In 2005 McCann recommended the re-opening of the Ennis to Athenry line as a first phase and by so doing to develop the Limerick to Galway intercity and commuter services.

Limerick-Galway trains were reintroduced in 2010 after expenditure of €96 million on the 35 mile Ennis-Gort-Athenry section. The Ennis to Athenry section was needed in order for the parts in the middle to be brought into service and to connect the cities of Galway and Limerick. The red route on the map is now open under phase 1 and the yellow route from Athenry through Tuam to Claremorris and Mayo should constitute the next phase.

After a sluggish start because of issues with scheduling, marketing and presentation, passenger numbers today have exceeded projected targets due to current management initiatives Passenger numbers on the Galway-Limerick railway for 2014 were in excess of 220,000, according to statistics published by Iarnród Éireann. This includes a 72.5% increase in passenger journeys through the Ennis-Athenry section of the line, which represents the largest annual growth on the rail network. It is worthy of note that the Faber Maunsell passenger projections prepared for Iarnród Éireann in 2005 anticipated 169,000 annual trips on the Galway-Limerick route.

Members may have heard about the one-day census of rail routes that takes place every year in November. According to the 2013 census, which was published by the NTA, boardings on the Galway-Limerick rail services were similar to the Dublin-Belfast Enterprise cross-Border services, although there were fewer trains on the Galway-Limerick route. It is highly likely that Galway-Limerick boardings could exceed Dublin-Belfast boardings when the results or the 2014 survey are published given the record growth on the route already reported by Iarnród Éireann. The Faber Maunsell passenger projections anticipated 540 daily boardings on the Galway-Limerick route but the 2013 census, which was carried out prior to the implementation of improvements, recorded 886 boardings. In 2014, 220,000 passengers journeys were made despite the fact that the Ennis-Limerick section was closed for almost four months due to flooding at Ballycar. Extra coaches are now required on peak time services due to this growth in demand and two international tour operators are planning to use the route in 2015 for heritage train operations. These operators are Rail Tours Ireland, which uses the route on a daily basis and is also developing an special intentional product, and Steam Dreams, which plan to make use of the route next year. This is a lucrative international business.

Apple made a significant announcement last week on an €850 million investment in a data centre in Athenry, which is at the heart of the southern section of the rail corridor. The new centre will be the company’s largest data centre project in Europe, providing 300 jobs during its multiple phases. The CEO of IDA Ireland, Martin Shanahan, stated, “This is an important strategic investment by Apple in a regional location, with significant local economic benefits". It is reasonable to expect that Apple's investment will have an impact across a 60 mile radius, which means the completion of the fourth radial rail route north from Athenry is even more justified. I will now ask my colleague, Mr. Frank Dawson, to speak about rail freight.

Mr. Frank Dawson

I will speak on the potential for rail freight along the western rail corridor. The McCann report suggested that if the rail freight demand expressed by industries in County Mayo could be verified, the reopening of the full section between Athenry and Claremorris may be justified under phase two. At the initiative of West on Track, Iarnród Éireann undertook a pilot project in 2005 to charter freight on the Waterford-Mayo route to a logistics company, Norfolk Lines. This was done at a time when Iarnród Éireann had apparently decided to exit all rail freight operations with the exception of Tara Mines. The pilot was successful, and it proved that the projected demand estimated by Mayo industries was real. Approximately 10,000 chartered freight trains have operated then between County Mayo and the ports of Waterford and Dublin. In 2014 alone, over 1,000 chartered freight trains operated and the current number is approximately 20 per week. These are the only intermodal freight trains operating on the island of Ireland today. This is a major achievement given that Ireland is unique in providing no subsidies or grants based on environmental or congestion savings, as is the case in the UK, France and across Europe. Furthermore, the EU reported in 2014 that Ireland's rail access charges are four to five times higher than the charges in Germany, France or the UK. In France, the Mayo rail freight operations would attract €1 million in state subsidies and the train track access charge is €1.60 per 1,000 tonne train kilometre, compared to €9.80 in Ireland. The operations would receive up to €900,000 in state grants in the UK, with track charges of €1.93 per 1,000 tonne train kilometre. If County Mayo can generate 1,000 freight trains per annum serving two ports, I suggest the true potential of rail freight in Ireland is untapped.

The red dotted line on the map now before members is the route currently taken by Mayo freight trains travelling to and from the Port of Waterford. The yellow route is the western rail corridor via Limerick Junction, which is shorter and has the capacity to serve Galway, Foynes, Cork and Waterford. Today's freight trains in Ireland are fast, efficient and weigh up to 1,000 tonnes. Our research shows there is commercial interest in the west of Ireland in new rail haulage of timber, intermodal containers, biomass, wrapped waste and meat products. The EU accepts that rail freight subsidies, grants and low track access charges generate a positive return. A report prepared recently by Arup for the UK Department for Transport found a benefit to cost ratio of 4.27:1 in environmental and congestion costs for every pound of grant expenditure.

We welcome the recent decision of the Western Development Commission to prepare a formal report on the potential for new rail freight traffic into and from the western region. Our view that the potential now exists for substantial growth in rail freight is shared by the paying customers in Irish industry. Mr. Howard Knott will address that issue further. The reopening of the dormant 34 mile railway between Athenry and Claremorris will enable this growth. At present, all freight trains to and from County Mayo rely on a single track to Portarlington, which is 130 miles in lengths and also carries passenger traffic to Galway and Mayo. Reinstating the missing link from Athenry to Claremorris would cost between €25 million and €30 million, less than €1 million per mile, if costings for the reopening of the line to Foynes are taken as the baseline. It would also shorten the routes to the Port of Waterford by 30 miles, to the Port of Cork by 80 miles and to Foynes by 135 miles. It would decongest existing intercity routes, on which freight currently competes with passenger trains, and meet customer demands for daytime transport. It would also satisfy industry expectations of a loop transport system and remove the current necessity for freight trains to Waterford to be shunted through the greater Dublin area, where they have no business.

Reinstatement would provide the capacity to develop new rail freight flows in Mayo, Galway and Clare. It would strengthen the business case for a new intermodal freight distribution hub in Claremorris and deliver the bonus of an extended west coast route for special tourist and heritage traffic from Kerry through Limerick and Clare to Galway and Mayo. This would contribute to tourism growth on the Wild Atlantic Way.

The Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, has indicated that Ireland is at significant risk of not meeting its Europe 2020 targets and that significant reductions are needed in the transport sector. Rail freight generates 80% less CO2 emissions than does road freight. Our research, based on international findings, indicates the value of carbon savings through displacement of lorry miles of the Mayo rail freight operations amount to €2 million per annum. Each Irish rail freight train takes at least 18 articulated lorries off the roads and there is potential to double the size of trains to UK levels of 36 wagons.

In 2012, Iarnród Éireann commissioned a major report into the future strategy for the national rail network, Rail Vision 2030, from AECOM and Goodbody Economic Consultants. The report evaluated a number of potential new rail passenger lines with only Athenry to Tuam on the western rail corridor envisaged as a candidate for further consideration. We believe that the rail freight case strengthens this view. In addition, in work undertaken for the Institute of Engineers, Booz & Company advised that "[R]ailway operating [and] infrastructure companies need to invest consistently - even during the current crisis - in expanding the rail network and driving forward optimisation of capacity ... and order management". Whether it is for rail freight or rail passenger benefit, now is the right time to advance the next phase of the western rail corridor and to connect counties Mayo and Galway by rail once again.

Mr. Colmán Ó Raghallaigh

With the permission of the Chair, Mr. Knott will add to that presentation.

Mr. Howard Knott

I thank the Chair and members. Fundamentally, my perspective is that of the Irish Exporters Association, IEA, which is a not-for-profit membership organisation established during the 1950s with a mission to help companies based in Ireland lead economic growth through the development of exports of both goods and services. In the case of manufacturing businesses, a critical factor in achieving export success is having an efficient, competitive and environmentally-sustainable supply chain. It is worth noting that increasingly, the IDA is asked to supply information on the sustainability of these transport links in its discussions with incoming foreign direct investment prospects. This supply chain can be made up of many links, which involve different combinations of transport modes using ports, roads, railways, airports etc. In freight volume terms, the ports are key, which is something that is recognised in both Irish and European Union transport policies. Transport between the manufacturers and the ports has been dominated by the use of road and up to now, rail has played a minor role. In 2009, the association set up the widely-based IEA rail freight group as part of its trade facilitation project. The objective in this regard was to facilitate the development of a modern rail freight industry that could give exporting companies a sustainable and competitive alternative to road freight, to access both ports, in the case of exporting goods in containers, and suppliers.

The announcement of the IDA's new strategic plan with ambitious targets for enterprise growth throughout the regions and the fact that 88% of manufacturing plants are located outside the Dublin area will increase pressure on the national road and rail infrastructure and will require further investment in them. Plans are being developed with European Union backing for the restoration of the rail link for freight from the port of Foynes to the network at Limerick, together with ambitious plans for the development of Foynes as a centre for processing energy products, as well as agribusiness inputs. These plans would be greatly aided by a linked-up rail network running north through Connacht and the development of part of the trans-European transport network, TEN-T. The planned development of Galway Port has similar infrastructural requirements. In the context of the TEN-T, which traditionally has been perceived as favouring the development of what are called the category one ports, that is, the major ports rather than smaller ports, it is interesting to note there is a realisation that projects other than those on the TEN-T corridors are well worth consideration. Moreover, this was confirmed by discussions we had with the TEN-T people in Brussels last February. Members probably will have heard of the Juncker proposals but essentially, the Community is stating that projects that actually stand up and which could be put into operation quite quickly, if only the folk had the money with which to do it, then Europe is willing to stump up at least a significant proportion of the money. This probably should be taken into account in considering the issues raised by Mr. Colmán Ó Raghallaigh and Mr. Frank Dawson.

The Irish Exporters Association, like West-on-Track, supports strongly the Western Development Commission's initiative in commissioning the study of potential demand for rail freight services serving the western region. It is important to take up that term, "serving the western region" because while the main item this morning pertains to a link between Athenry and Claremorris, it is extremely important to realise that when one considers it from the point of view of the exporting customer, whether in Mayo, Galway, Kerry or elsewhere, it is not simply a matter of getting the product out of its place of origin. It is a matter of getting the product to the port from which it will leave Ireland. A company that is obliged to truck everything from these places to Dublin and that happened to hit the M50 yesterday morning would have been obliged to wait for an hour and a half to get from the N7 junction to the port tunnel. That is not very clever and is not very useful for anybody and therefore, it is important to look at other transport options. Rail will require money, which is a difficulty, but has a potential in certain cases to meet this requirement.

The greenhouse gas savings aspect is something of which we have become more aware, certainly over the past five years. I believe the legislation currently before the Oireachtas on this subject of energy efficiency should take into account that manufacturing companies are being asked repeatedly what is the carbon footprint of their product. They are being asked what is the carbon footprint of the logistics of their products and whether they are getting them to the potential customers in the most environmentally-friendly way. If a company responds by saying it sticks the product on a truck in Ballina and it comes off that truck in Frankfurt, one is dead and will not succeed. I thank the committee.

Chairman

I thank the witnesses for the presentation. They have articulated many significant facts that perhaps are at variance with what one sometimes hears with regard to the passenger numbers, which is interesting. We may ask the witnesses to comment on this point later. The proposals in respect of the potential for freight are highly significant. Briefly, before I hand over to members, are the witnesses suggesting that for an investment of €25 million or €30 million, this freight transport potentially could be profitable? The witnesses have stated there are no subsidies at present, that basically, freight is being transported already and people are taking the long way around through the greater Dublin area. Can they reiterate that?

Does Iarnród Éireann agree with this analysis? My perception is that Iarnród Éireann’s policy on freight over the years has been to move away from it. Is there now a change of policy? Does Iarnród Éireann recognise value in the proposal of West on Track?

Mr. Frank Dawson

I wish to clarify that. Rail freight is profitable before the application of track charges. The point is that the track charges are five to six times higher in Ireland than in Britain. If the average European track charges were applied in Ireland, there would be a net profit on all freight traffic. Obviously, this would create the opportunity for growth. In Britain, France and certain other countries, the reduction in freight charges is subsidised formally by the state because they believe they get a four-point return on investing in subsidisation. As I stated, our charges are so far out of kilter with those of other European countries that it is very difficult for Iarnród Éireann to compete. Therefore, the loss of track-charge revenue owing to a reduction would have to be met by the State, as is the case in Britain and other countries.

Chairman

How would the State get a return?

Mr. Frank Dawson

The State would get its return through carbon and congestion savings. The return in those countries that subsidise track charges is over four to one. That is computed formally in carbon savings but it has to be said that in Ireland, unlike our colleagues throughout Europe, we do not seem to pay a lot of attention to the carbon savings that accrue from using rail rather than other forms of transport. This is an area of policy that needs to be re-examined.

Chairman

What is Iarnród Éireann's policy on freight?

Mr. Don Cunningham

Our policy on freight is that business must be sustainable and profitable and not worsen our critical financial position. As seen over the past five to seven years, new opportunities have been few and far between, but we are extremely pleased with the nature of our freight business. It has grown by a few percent year on year, and we are now recording approximately 100 million freight tonne kilometres, with revenue of approximately €9 million per annum. It is certainly an area in which we are interested. Last year, 2014, was our first year of applying the track access charges. We are actually reviewing the charge. It is a financial position that we must try to balance but we are certainly very supportive of increasing freight traffic because we have to sweat the asset and use our system more. Freight has great potential in that regard.

Chairman

Is it being considered with a view to reducing the charge?

Mr. Don Cunningham

Yes, but we have to make up the loss of income somewhere else.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I welcome the two delegations and thank them for the presentation. As somebody who represents a constituency served by the western rail corridor, I have an affinity with the work done by West-on-Track. The group is voluntary and has done immense work to date. It is now rightly considering how it should move on based on the McCann report and how the next phase can be entered. I will make a couple of comments and then ask a couple of questions.

As an absolute believer in balanced regional development, I believe absolutely that we need much better infrastructure, including road and rail infrastructure, along the western seaboard. There has been much talk about the Atlantic corridor and the Wild Atlantic Way, which is a recurring theme. There was the Atlantic Connectivity Alliance and an Atlantic cluster associated with the development of a critical mass of companies funded from outside the State by way of foreign direct investment. I refer to the cluster between Galway and Shannon and to creating, for the first time in a long time, a counter-pole to the east coast. With regard to investment in infrastructure, the west is playing catch-up with the east coast every day. As congestion arises, one considers the next phase and the one thereafter, and one is just pushing the issue down the road. There is a real opportunity to do something on the west coast because congestion is not an issue. It is a question of planning for the future and targeting investment so people have an opportunity to live in a less cluttered and clustered way. The only way to achieve the desired demographic shift is to invest heavily in infrastructure, including road, rail and educational infrastructure. This provides the foundation for the investment community, which invests for profit. Investors will locate here if the services are in place. It is a chicken-and-egg scenario. What I describe will not happen unless the State makes the necessary investment. The delegates continue to make that case.

Reference was made to Apple locating in Athenry. Is the station relatively close to the site? If not, it is remiss of the promoters of the venture. The site should be relatively close. Unless it is within walking distance, there will be no benefit.

Perhaps the delegates have some of the numbers I desire. If not, perhaps they can revert to us. I am cognisant of the fact that West-on-Track is a voluntary group. In conjunction with the committee members or others, the delegates will have to ensure a more complete and costed approach. The taxpayer wants to know the long-term implications of any investment that takes place. While it may be fantastic to get the track for €35 million and excellent to reduce track usage to European levels, we are caught if Iarnród Éireann says it is already in a very difficult financial position and must keep coming back to the State looking for money. Mr. David Franks stated recently that he needs approximately €100 million per annum rather than €30 million to carry out the track maintenance that has to be done. We must examine the recurring input by the State. We should not be frightened about it and we should be up front in saying what we need if we are to support the policy of balanced regional development. It is not about opening rail lines for the sake of it, or having a rail line between Claremorris and Sligo or to Waterford; it is about how we fund infrastructure to have balanced regional development. We will need more figures so we can make the case and so the taxpayer will know what will be required annually from the State if there is to be such development. Let the carbon considerations come into play in making the case. We should be up front about it. I am not suggesting that the delegates are not but that there is work that needs to be done. Perhaps the committee can help in that regard. I congratulate the delegates.

Mr. Frank Dawson

With regard to congestion, the congestion Mr. Knott referred to is probably caused by regional freight in Dublin. Our freight generated problems for Dublin by road. The decongestion issue arises more in Dublin, but it is we who are causing it with our freight, because 80%-----

Deputy Timmy Dooley

The more people have to move to Dublin to make a life for themselves and earn a living, the more phenomenal the congestion will be there. The M50 has reached a critical point in terms of congestion and people are now asking how the problem might be solved. This is an issue for policymakers.

Mr. Frank Dawson

I understand.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

My view has always been that if there is investment in locations other than Dublin, it makes it easier for industry to move there and for people to live around a network of cities, such as Limerick and Galway, and the county towns. Thus, we can create a counter-pole. It will not happen overnight and will certainly not happen unless the critical infrastructure is installed. Industry and business follow infrastructure, and thus we could stem the tide of the west moving towards the east.

Mr. Frank Dawson

I agree with the Deputy. He asked about the proximity of the Apple site to the railway. It is adjacent to it.

It was deliberately developed by IDA Ireland because of its proximity to the railway, not to the station but to the railway line.

With regard to figures for freight trains, we have figures that we are very happy to share with the Department. We have already shared some of them with Iarnród Éireann. We are happy to contribute our calculations and to back them up. All freight trains have a gross profit at the moment. If a subsidy of €1.3 million was provided to Iarnród Éireann at the moment it could halve its track access charges, which would make the railway even more attractive to customers and more profitable. The French Government put €900 million on the table to subsidise rail freight in 2007 in a very deliberate campaign to subsidise it and to directly subsidise track access charges. The British Government puts about £23 million a year on the table to subsidise rail freight. We do not put a penny.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

It would be good to have a business plan that set out investment costs and ongoing annual support, and then to factor in how that might develop in terms of attracting more business and developing more rail-based enterprise, which would obviously reduce subvention over time. That should not be seen as a barrier but as a long-term commitment to that overused and underfunded phrase, balanced regional development.

Mr. Colmán Ó Raghallaigh

Iarnród Éireann has been subjected to a serious reduction in its funding over the past number of years, and there has also been the economic downturn, which is bottoming out now. In 2014 passenger numbers grew for the first time across the rail network, but it remains in a position in which it is not of itself capable of putting money into anything, as our colleagues here have mentioned previously. So this will have to be a strategic investment by the State and, as Deputy Dooley says, it will have to be based on a sound business case. I think it is interesting that the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Paschal Donohoe, speaking in the Dáil last week, made the point that any additional funds in the context of the development of a new capital plan would be prioritised for projects for which there was a clear need, which we think there is in this case; that are affordable, and we think in relative terms that the sum required for the piece of infrastructure we are talking about reconnecting, the piece of connectivity that we are offering, ticks that box; that have a sound business case, which the Deputy has talked about, and we believe that can be produced; but most importantly, that add value to the existing infrastructure. The existing infrastructure that we are talking about in this section of the presentation is about rail freight. Mayo is supplying rail freight to Dublin and to Waterford, all of which has to go through the greater Dublin area at the moment. By opening the link from Claremorris to Athenry, we are offering the rail company an alternative route. We offer them the facility to develop business to the south rather than business that is all Dublin-centric. The logistics operators IWT and DFDS are interested in developing this link to the south, as is the IEA, as the committee has heard. We add value, therefore, to the network by making available to Iarnród Éireann this missing link. We connect to the port of Galway, the port of Foynes - which is coming back on stream, as we have heard - to Cork, and to Waterford. We also allow more options for trains to Dublin, because if there is something wrong on the line from Claremorris to Athlone there is an alternative route. This encourages businesses to look to rail. Therefore, I think the Minister's requirements are being met by the case that we are making here today.

Deputy Helen McEntee

My questions are specific and are aimed at Mr. Cunningham and Mr. Grogan. They may or may not be able to answer them today, but perhaps they could come back to me. I come from a county that has three motorways going through it. We are very close to Dublin and in close proximity to the M50 and the airport, yet we have only one passenger train, which goes as far as Dunboyne in County Meath. It is struggling at the moment, from what I can see. I was out there early in the morning only recently and the passengers were few and far between. Do Mr. Cunningham and Mr. Grogan see it as a viable route in the future? Are there they doing anything or are there any plans to try to increase the number of passengers using that route?

My focus is more on the disused railway line from Navan to Kingscourt. We have a very ambitious and viable project, which is at an advanced stage - the Boyne Valley to Lakelands County greenway. A colleague of mine, Councillor Eugene Cassidy, has been spearheading that project with Meath County Council. I know he has met with colleagues of Mr. Cunningham and Mr. Grogan and an agreement has been reached for plans to lease the railway line to Meath County Council. My question is, when the tracks are being lifted and the sleepers and steel are being disposed of, is there a possibility that some of that finance might or could be put into the greenway? Any assistance or help in supporting those lines is always welcome. I know it cost €150,000 in 2014 just to clean the track and secure the fencing. While it might not be something that Mr. Cunningham and Mr. Grogan were thinking of, it might be something they would consider.

Mr. Don Cunningham

I will try to answer the question on the viability of the Dunboyne route. It is true that the Dunboyne route has not been as successful, and I think a lot of that was as a result of the recession and development plans that were not carried out. It was, if I may say, putting in the infrastructure ahead of the development. While currently the route is loss-making, we do believe it has good potential in terms of the recession ending and green shoots appearing in the national economy. With proper co-ordinated planning, if development is co-ordinated along the routes where infrastructure such as the Dunboyne line is, we would certainly see that turnaround in terms of passenger numbers and growth potential. It is something we have discussed with the NTA and they are aligned with us in that regard.

With regard to the Navan-Kingscourt line, as Deputy McEntee has mentioned, we are in discussions with the local authorities and, as we mentioned in our presentation, we are very happy to work with anybody in terms of the development and use of the line in order to protect it.

With regard to diverting funding from lifting tracks and sleepers, often we find it is not economical to do so, and if we did and were able to sell them off, unfortunately we would need to put the resulting funds into the great deficit that we have at the minute, which was alluded to earlier. Unfortunately, while it does protect our route, we are underfunded, and our objective at the minute is really to focus on supporting the current network that we have, so it would be very difficult for us to transfer funds towards other initiatives. We are just not in a financial position to do so. If I may add - this is relevant to our colleagues from West-on-Track - it is very much the socioeconomic case which shows great benefits in terms of the cost benefit ratio and so on. Unfortunately, our focus has to be on the financial impact of Iarnród Éireann as a business entity. While the socioeconomic impacts are great, it is a national issue rather than an issue that Iarnród Éireann can deal with.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I thank the representatives of West-on-Track and Iarnród Éireann for giving their presentations. What I have always found is that those areas, particularly the north west and the west, along that corridor, are the poor mouth of the transport system. The road networks did not have an impact from Sligo up to Derry in particular, but they certainly have had a big effect on other areas.

The witnesses mentioned the environmental bonus, and obviously there is an argument there in terms of the effect on the environment for trying to utilise this particular route. Is it apparent what impact the road network has had on moving this forward? Are there any indicators in terms of the number of jobs this would create? Would extra rail freight or stock be needed? I know there are no issues on subvention.

Regarding the landowners, it has been said it would cost €30 million to do this section. Are there issues with landowners or rights to land that has not been utilised a lot?

As regards TEN-T funding, the issue that has been cropping up is whether there is any scope to obtain in? It was intended to be available for big projects in certain areas.

The Galway to Claremorris line is extremely important, but it is also important to create connectivity between Claremorris and Sligo. The delegates are saying there is great scope for freight services.

The forgotten area is that extending from Sligo to Derry and Donegal. This morning I was listening to a businessman on Raidió na Gaeltachta saying no jobs were being created in that area. Linking would offer significant long-term potential. Representatives of Iarnród Éireann give us a business plan and we say it would cost too much, but it should not always be about money. It should be about linking areas on the island, providing services and creating scope for business along the western route. It frustrates me that the Government looks at everything on the basis of whether money is available. Iarnród Éireann's attitude is that it does not have the money to do it, but we will never get anything done on that basis. People and Governments have to be more imaginative and forward-looking in their thinking.

Chairman

Deputy Seán Kenny is next to speak, but Deputy Michael Colreavy has to be elsewhere. I will, therefore, let him in at this stage.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

I thank Deputies Seán Kenny and Michael Fitzmaurice. I have to speak in the debate on the social welfare Bill.

I thank the delegates for their presentations. Sometimes with presentations one receives a slide with the words, "This slide has intentionally been left blank." When I look at the map, north of the Sligo to Dublin line there is a big blank space and I am tempted to say it has also intentionally been left blank. People will remember the closure of the Enniskillen to Sligo narrow-gauge railway line. It ran through Manorhamilton and Collooney and its closure represented a huge loss to that part of the country. I also remember the closure of the freight service between Sligo and Dublin. That decision never made sense to me and still does not.

Deputies Helen McEntee and Dessie Ellis referred to the mixed message coming from Iarnród Éireann. It is anxious to promote and develop infrastructure, but because of a lack of funding has to focus on existing infrastructure. I understand this. I am intrigued when Mr. Dawson says he would welcome public or private interest in investment. I would like to hear more on the potential for private investment. Will he expand on what the advantages would be in terms of network flexibility?

There seems to be friction between proponents of the greenway and West-on-Track. It strikes me as a little like the musical, "Oklahoma". Perhaps the farmers and the cowmen should be friends. Some of the friction almost seems to be due to personal differences. Is it all or nothing or are there opportunities for co-existence between the proponents of the greenway and West-on-Track in the interim?

Chairman

I will hand over to whoever wants to pick up the ball.

Mr. Frank Dawson

On Deputy Dessie Ellis's point about carbon savings, we are very happy to provide the basis of our calculations for the committee. We estimate the figure to be in the region of €2 million a year. We used a number of parameters, with which I do not think the Environmental Protection Agency would disagree. I do not have that opinion, but I do know that they are based on calculations in other jurisdictions in Europe.

The question about landowners does not arise in the context of the Athenry to Claremorris line because it is an existing railway line which has been classified as an engineer's siding by Iarnród Éireann. A train could be run on it tomorrow if that was the choice made. It was never closed; it is simply not utilised.

The position on the route north of Claremorris, an issue raised by Deputy Michael Colreavy, is slightly different, although it has not been abandoned. The obvious answer, as suggested in the McCann report, is that it merits further investigation. The ideal methodology would be to identify the optimal route. There is an airport and a major shrine between Claremorris and Sligo which might be considered in identifying the optimal route. Whether the route is opened next year or in 40 years, it should be identified and protected. The exercise might identify parts of the existing route that would not be deemed to form part of the optimal route for the future and that might be given over for other purposes.

There should not be a conflict between those who propagate greenways and railway lines as they are essentially different. There may be some who are suggesting the existing railway line be turned into a greenway. I respectfully suggest there are many other routes which could be used for greenways in the beautiful west than existing critical infrastructure routes.

In one sense there is an issue of private investment. There are private parties associated with railway operations such as the logistics companies that have been named, plus the State company, Coillte, and the road freight industry which collaborates in the use of freight trains. There is a unique marriage between logistics companies and the road and rail freight industries which deserves encouragement. We estimate that a sum of approximately €1.5 million in carbon subsidies to the existing rail freight service of Iarnród Éireann would result in it being able to halve current rail freight access charges, from €10 to €5. They would still be twice that elsewhere in Europe, but it would go a long way towards attracting more business. The bottom line is that if track charges were to be reduced, more customers would be encouraged.

Mr. Colmán Ó Raghallaigh

There is a major proposal for the development of a multi-modal freight hub in Claremorris, with the railway line at the centre. It is being developed by private investors who will be contacting Iarnród Éireann in the very near future.

It has the potential to bring road hauliers, the rail company and logistic operators into co-operation and grow greatly the number of freight operations taking place in the west. It is in the early stages of development, but it is a definite runner.

With regard to the situation in Sligo and Donegal in the context of TEN-T funding, the two elements of TEN-T funding are the core and comprehensive networks. The west and north west and the Border region are included in the comprehensive network part of the TEN-T, while the core network covers railway development between, for example, Foynes and Limerick. As the development of Foynes Port is contingent on achieving TEN-T funding for a rail link, it will happen. When it does, it will mean areas in the west can be connected to the deep sea port at Foynes, if the missing link from Claremorris to Athenry is put in place. By proxy or, as the Minister stated, by adding value to existing infrastructure, County Mayo could have a strong case for looking south rather than having to look east all of the time.

Mr. Howard Knott

Mr. Ó Raghallaigh has covered some of the points I noted. TEN-T funding offers potential. In the case of Foynes, as mentioned, it is hoped the rail connection will secure TEN-T funding because it meets the criteria laid down. A TEN-T funding application has been made in support of the work being done in scoping the restoration of the track. Another portion of the money will come from the port. It does not have to come from the railway company. Others will see value in its development. The same issue apples exactly to the very strong existing service mentioned between Ballina and Dublin, on which there are seven round trips of container trains a week. They cross into Dublin Port on track owned, maintained and developed by Dublin Port. The port authority has put its money into the development of rail freight services.

It is important to state the establishment of a significant rail operation from Ballina servicing the ports in Dublin and Waterford has facilitated the development of other companies in the area, simply because there is the availability of container equipment. If an exporter requires a particular container tomorrow, it could well be sitting in Ballina just a few miles away rather than having to trek all the way to Dublin. It could have a cumulative effect on development.

We mentioned the Juncker proposals, which are critical and not sufficiently understood. Although Ireland is enjoying a gentle economic recovery, if I can put it that way, other parts of Europe do not have this luxury and the Commission is so anxious that development take place in Europe it has developed a funding protocol for projects which are shovel-ready if a case can be made for them. There is no doubt, from conversations we have had in the past six weeks with people in Brussels, that projects such as those articulated this morning could well be supported. Ports, the European Union and other interests are looking to support viable projects. It comes back to what was being said about having a solid business case and solid figures. This is where the Western Development Commission study will prove extremely useful.

Chairman

There are a number of possible funding streams for what is being proposed.

Mr. Howard Knott

Correct.

Deputy Seán Kenny

I pay tribute to West-on-Track for its presentation which is idealistic. As somebody who originally comes from the west, I have a certain affinity with the proposals made, although the harsh realities are that everything must have a business case to back it up.

On reopening the railway line between Athenry and Claremorris, what is the condition of the track? Is it still intact? Have developments taken place across it in some places? Would there be problems in reopening it?

On the railway line from Athenry to Limerick and Ennis, I read somewhere that people travelling from Galway to Ennis or Limerick would get there a lot faster by using bus services than by travelling by train from Galway via Athenry to Limerick. That is one of the disadvantages. I also understand speed restrictions on the line limit the speed at which trains can travel, which makes the journey longer.

With regard to the freight business, most of our freight is to the United Kingdom, our main business partner, and passes through Dublin Port. The Dublin Port tunnel was opened seven or eight years ago to remove all of the heavy traffic from city roads and direct it via the M50 to the port. Heavy goods vehicles are banned from travelling through the city and must use the tunnel. In some ways, this has dealt with the traffic problem. Some years ago the Dublin Port Company built a new container terminal in the south port, but the railhead and rail terminal are located in the north port. To a large extent, this was the death knell for rail freight services. The main competitor for freight business is the road haulage industry which is a very strong lobby and might have had a say in the building of the new container terminal in the south port.

The ideas about heritage travel and tourism on the reopened lines are certainly worthy. In parts of Wales travelling on old lines is part of the tourism experience. Perhaps this is a model which might be examined. The main problems bring us back to what Irish Rail has told us about the availability of funding.

Mr. Don Cunningham

Deputy Seán Kenny mentioned the state of the railway line between Athenry and Claremorris. As Mr. Dawson mentioned, it has not been abandoned but is an engineers' siding. While it is true that rail traffic has not run along it for a number of years, it is relatively free from incursions and encroachments. As it is our intention, certainly within a reasonably short space of time, to operate a unit on it, we protect it. It is a section of the line on which there will always be problems, but we do not envisage any problem of great severity. Deputy Dessie Ellis raised a similar issue.

With regard to the journey time from Galway to Limerick, it is an issue and a problem for us, but it is comparable to bus times. A motorway was built which conveys buses at a fast rate. At the time the first phase of the western rail corridor was opened limited funding was available. With regard to the speed restrictions, initially there were many level crossings along the line. There are parameters on which we must satisfy the Railway Safety Commission for health and safety reasons. While we are trying to work on them and lower their number, it will take time and, like everything else, money.

Deputies Ellis and Colreavy raised a couple of issues about a possible imbalance in our position with regard to funding. We are extremely supportive of anything that will utilise the railway network more or expand it. There are extremely good national benefits of a socio-economic nature. Our restriction is purely that we are mandated as a company by the Minister to improve our financial position as a business. There are two separate elements, with one being the larger picture and the other being the company picture. The company picture means we do not have the capital to invest in these. Rest assured, we are extremely keen to work with and support initiatives in the national interest that will provide environmental benefits and balanced regional developments. There are a multiplicity of issues highlighted by our colleagues from West-on-Track this morning that we are very keen to support.

Mr. Frank Dawson

We are fully prepared to articulate the business case, as there has always been the need for such a case. We are satisfied that the business case stands up and we are prepared to contribute our thoughts to that. This is in the context of the rail freight argument we have just made.

Competing bus services between Galway and Limerick are remarkable in that they were introduced by a sister company of Iarnród Éireann just as the railway opened. It is claimed the services reach Limerick in one hour and 20 minutes but such schedules, unlike rail schedules, are not subject to the same level of audit. That said, it is a fact that a person can be quicker to travel by road than the current rail service in this case. There is considerable potential to tighten the speeds on the rail service. The maximum speed on sections of the western rail corridor is 80 mph, which is 20 mph faster than any bus is allowed to travel legally. My expectation is that the full potential of the line will gradually be exploited by Iarnród Éireann as it addresses some pinch points that are currently there. We referred earlier to flooding at Ballycar, which closed the line last year. We hope that can be addressed. It is a national issue and not just for Iarnród Éireann and flooding, like any other issue, should be addressed centrally. Iarnród Éireann needs assistance in that regard.

The National Transport Authority, NTA, could help the western rail corridor by reflecting the fact that the fare from Galway to Limerick is currently €9.99. The NTA website suggests the fares begin at €22.40. I have asked the authority to address this but, to my knowledge, it has not been done up to this morning. The authority could also assist the western rail corridor and corridors in the Cork region by including rail transport in the Leap card, which was launched with a flourish recently in Galway city. However, it only provides for transport on Bus Éireann and another private bus operator in Galway. It excludes the railway, which has many commuters coming from the likes of Gort, Ballinasloe and Athenry. These customers cannot use Leap cards and that is a serious oversight on the part of advocating co-ordinated transport. The duplication of bus and train services between Galway and Limerick poses the question of how two sister companies of CIE can compete on the same route while Bus Éireann is currently discussing whether to sever services on routes that do not have railway services. Perhaps the board of CIE might engage in bringing about some co-ordination between the two subsidiaries. Clearly, there is an alternative to having two companies in the same group competing with each other.

We all advocate full attention to safety but the Railway Safety Commission appears to apply different standards to the western rail corridor level crossings when compared with other level crossings. It regards them somewhat as a new railway but this is the re-opening of a former railway. I am thankful that Iarnród Éireann has addressed most of the issues, although at some considerable expense. The difficulty is that the western rail corridor was opened before it was complete and, in retrospect, it might have been better to delay the opening until the completion. C'est la vie. That is the past.

Chairman

Did the criticism, such as that of low passenger numbers, arise from that decision?

Mr. Frank Dawson

It was opened before completion to ideal operational standards. Funding of €106 million was made available. It was four years after opening when somebody could buy a ticket for it on the Iarnród Éireann website, which did not help either. These issues have been corrected.

Chairman

Elements such as the marketing and online sales have been corrected but the speed of the service has not.

Mr. Frank Dawson

The maximum speed in spots is 80 mph.

Chairman

What would be the cost of increasing the speed of services on the western rail corridor?

Mr. Don Cunningham

I cannot give the committee a definitive estimate now but we have those figures on what it would cost to give a consistent and raised line speed. We do not have the figures to hand. It would certainly be of the order of tens of millions of euro.

Chairman

The incremental supports needed for any rail line to wash its face seem to have come in a piecemeal fashion, as witnesses have indicated. In the meantime, there are reporters scrutinising the services who give figures for sections rather than the total picture. Putting the information we have received today alongside what the public may have read in newspapers over the past three or four years - we have even seen "Prime Time" reports on this - it seems that the wrong spin is being put on this. It is important because we have the opportunity to balance the information.

Mr. Colmán Ó Raghallaigh

I reaffirm that we compliment Iarnród Éireann on the manner in which it has faced up to issues that have arisen in this matter. It has introduced competitive pricing, online booking and various other measures, including free car parking at different stations along the route. Increasing the speed of services may not cost that much, given that such fine infrastructure has been put in place. It is a state-of-the-art railway and I would like to think that with a little tweaking and without great expense, the timetable could be tightened a little. Ten minutes would make an enormous difference in a service between Galway and Limerick. We recognise the great effort that has been made by Iarnród Éireann in recent years to make this a competitive railway. It is getting a reward, as statistics demonstrate.

The Chairman mentioned in passing that sections of the railway are being singled out for observation by the media and various other parties. No other part of the railway network would see a station in the middle picked, along with another further down, to calculate the performance of the overall network. I have the timetable for the Galway to Limerick service in my pocket and It is unfair to Iarnród Éireann to judge its performance on the basis of the passenger numbers between Ennis and Athenry. The sooner we consider the railway in its entirety, from Galway to Limerick, and praising Iarnród Éireann for its excellent performance, the better. It is not appropriate for a single section to receive undue focus.

The expenditure to open the middle section was put in and now we have a Galway to Limerick route. That is what is online and on the scheduled timetable.

In every other railway, in Ireland and in the world, the performance of a railway route is measured by the number of passengers who travel from the moment the train leaves the first station until it arrives at its ultimate destination, whether they travel ten miles, 50 miles or 100 miles.

Chairman

At some stage, Mr. Ó Raghallaigh might provide the information on the cost to the committee. We can circulate it to the members. Many of the supports and the online buying of tickets, etc., have come. That might be the final piece of the jigsaw that would help. Deputy Fitzmaurice has waited a long time but I must follow the protocol. We will give him the floor now.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

I thank the witnesses for their presentation. I have said for years that infrastructure is required in rural areas if we intend to retain jobs there. I have listened all day to certain views being put forward here. My view is that when a gas pipe went into Dublin, it might not have been economically viable the day it went in, but they built a city around it which pays back. A Government creates the environment or infrastructure in order that one can create employment, no more than what is going on in Claremorris and in other parts. One must look at the long term. Anyone in business will say one must spend a euro to make a euro.

I would like to know from Iarnród Éireann whether the problem with flooding is being addressed. Obviously, that needs to be addressed. It is four months since the line was closed.

For Iarnród Éireann to tighten up its act, can it put some freight onto passenger trains? Lorries and cars have been perfected. Nearly every machine made has been perfected. Why does one train need to go slower than the other? In other countries, they work both together, which obviously makes it more efficient.

On Foynes port, timber is being brought in raw to Foynes port from Scotland and it is being transported to near my area. I hauled fertiliser out of Athenry train station to Claremorris years ago. We have strategic points, such as Foynes port, which is being developed and which is good. We have different ones, such as Claremorris, Knock Airport and Knock shrine. Can we not talk to the Northern authorities as well? I understand, and I may be corrected if I am wrong, that under TEN-T there is 40% to 60% funding available to do this type of work. We have the Wild Atlantic Way which is a significant amenity and has proven successful. If we are to bring about regional development, can we not take a strategic look, from Donegal to Sligo to Mayo to Galway, which would benefit the people of Roscommon, down to Clare and to Limerick, after which Iarnród Éireann could divert the train on to Waterford? Is there any strategic thinking of where we can go?

On the question of whether it is viable to go, for example, from Claremorris to Sligo, one must look at it in a different way. If we create jobs in an area, that saves the Government money. One might lose a euro here but make two there. That is the way it operates.

I have another point for Iarnród Éireann. There are many companies in all parts of Ireland which do not know the service Iarnród Éireann provides. There is a company near me that makes steel frames for export to Canada and it does not know whether Castlerea would take it. There is not an aggressive marketing campaign to let companies know what is on offer, how we can make ourselves more competitive and how we can export goods. For example, how can one take something from Mayo or Galway, for example, and would it be cheaper to put it on a freight train? What is the cost of a lorry from Donegal to Dublin or Waterford compared with what Iarnród Éireann can do? No one knows because the first thing we think of is the lorry. There is no aggressive marketing campaign to show companies what is on offer, which is the only way one will build business and make it viable. One must fight for the market and go at it aggressively. If that is done, with the benefit of what is being done in Foynes port and the infrastructures through Mayo, like a bowl, if one puts everything into it, it can be made viable.

Mr. Don Cunningham

I will address some of the questions. The first related to the flooding at Ballycar. Studies have been concluded on potential alleviation of the flooding at Ballycar. Neither we nor the local authorities have the funding to implement the solutions. The solutions are there, they are costed but it is a matter of finding the funding. Individually and collectively, we have approached Government to attain that funding but we have not been successful yet in getting it. Deputy Fitzmaurice made a few comments on the issue of freight.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

I apologise for interrupting Mr. Cunningham. At present, Iarnród Éireann is at a disadvantage.

Mr. Don Cunningham

Yes.

Chairman

As regards the funding, was there €110 million allocated to Iarnród Éireann in the Supplementary Estimate before Christmas?

Mr. Don Cunningham

It was in the region of €45 million.

Chairman

What was that for?

Mr. Don Cunningham

The allocation of that was for the heavy maintenance of the rolling stock. Some €10 million was allocated to line speed improvements between Portlaoise and Dublin on the Dublin-Cork Dublin-Galway route, and it was for signalling replacements at life-expired relay rooms.

Chairman

It was €45 million.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

I presume, if there is flooding, it is the OPW that is resolving that to bring water somewhere else. Would I be correcting in saying so?

Mr. Don Cunningham

It will involve the OPW.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

It is not Iarnród Éireann's funding. It is a problem in an area where there is flooding and it is the OPW that must carry out those works.

Mr. Don Cunningham

The OPW, on whose behalf I do not wish to speak, has informed us that it believes Iarnród Éireann would be the primary beneficiary and, therefore, the OPW is looking at us to provide the funding.

Chairman

There is an element of one arm of the State fighting with another.

Mr. Don Cunningham

Correct.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Is there farmland flooded?

Mr. Don Cunningham

There is.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

They would be beneficiaries as well.

Mr. Don Cunningham

Yes. There would be others but we would be the primary beneficiary.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Are there houses?

Mr. Don Cunningham

There are some that are affected by it.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

I rest my case.

Mr. Colmán Ó Raghallaigh

Deputy Fitzmaurice states Iarnród Éireann is not aggressively marketing its freight business but it is making every effort to work with groups, such as the Irish Exporters Association, the logistics operators and even voluntary groups such as ourselves, and the company is positively disposed towards growing the freight business, as Mr. Cunningham mentioned earlier.

One disadvantage Iarnród Éireann is under which will have to be addressed in the future is that it could reach a point fairly quickly, if the type of business that we see coming down the line comes on stream, where it will be necessary for the State to assist the company in adding to its rolling stock to meet demand. That would be a happy situation. It is one that the State should welcome.

The EPA made a statement two years ago that the recession had helped us meet our 2012 environmental targets but that there was no way that we would meet our 2020 targets. Iarnród Éireann is uniquely positioned through its freight business to help meet those targets on the transport side. There is nothing we can do about the agriculture side because, as the committee will be aware, there are issues peculiar to agriculture that it will take a fair bit of science to resolve.

As far as transport is concerned, the growth of rail freight in Ireland, if we were to develop it aggressively, would bring us very close to meeting the objective in this respect, if Iarnród Éireann were enabled to do so - and it needs to be so enabled - and if Irish exporters and other groups were to play their part, which we know they will. It is worth noting that, as my colleague said, 80% less carbon dioxide is produced when produce is carried by rail rather than by road, along with less than one tenth the amount of carbon monoxide, one twentieth the amount of nitrogen oxide, 9% the amount of fine particulates and 10% the amount of volatile organic compounds. That sounds like gobbledegook, but those are the facts on how rail freight will save money for this country in the future.

Mr. Howard Knott

To respond briefly to the Deputy with regard to marketing, fundamentally I would not disagree with a word he said. When we started this railway group six and a half years ago our intention was to make people aware that the railway lines existed and that they could be used. With the collective involvement of ourselves, our manufacturing members, Iarnród Éireann, the ports, the Department and a number of Government agencies, there has been a degree of success. The existing Iarnród Éireann targets for freight development looked at trebling the figure over a period of years. It is a small figure, but a trebling of freight development is significant.

The way in which the model used by Iarnród Éireann has been developed, whereby it charters trains to private companies, or to Coillte or Tara Mines, for them to on-sell the capacity on those trains works extremely well. It gives Iarnród Éireann security in terms of its revenue. It moves the risk further down the line, and people have been willing to accept that risk. There is a challenge in that when we talk to people who take that risk - the freight forwarders, DFDS Logistics or IWT - they say that the only problem is that they cannot find exporters who are interested in using the service, and we then ask them if they are marketing correctly. All I can say on that is that we are doing our very best with interest groups, particularly in the west, to get the message across that these services currently exist. They have proven value, as has been demonstrated through experience. More services could be introduced. It is a matter of people coming to the font and saying they are interested in talking to us about it. To do so, a company does not necessarily have to be the biggest company in the world with the biggest single traffic flow. It can hire one wagon on a chartered train. It might be the case that if a train is pulling 17 wagons it loses money but if it is pulling 18 wagons it is making money. Therefore, the wagon that a company hires could be very valuable.

If any message is to go out from our engagement today it is that companies should not despair - quite the opposite. They should contact Iarnród Éireann, their freight-forwarding companies and theirs hauliers and ask them about using the train. They should examine that possibility and the issues involved and consider opting for it.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Could Mr. Cunningham address my query about whether, with the use of new technology, the service could be made more efficient, with X number of carriages being put at the back of the train and freight also being transported? In that way the service would facilitate multitasking, or whatever one would term that.

Mr. Don Cunningham

As the Deputy said, we do not do that at present. With the permits and permissions we have, we are not entitled to transport passengers and freight together. Because of the utilisation of the network at present, we have the capacity to do both independently and to allow the correct maintenance time to ensure maintenance of the railway and keep the safety standards. If things were to get much more congested, we would have to begin to consider that to see if it was achievable and permissible.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Is it not more efficient to have one engine pulling all the carriages rather than having to use two engines?

Mr. Don Cunningham

Efficiency gains would not be great in that, with the weight being pulled in terms of tonne-kilometres, we would still have the same wear and tear and we would still need X amount of motive power to pull the carriages. It would be the same total tonnage that would be carried over the same kilometre. The restriction that comes into play is that much of our network, particularly in areas where the freight would be coming from, is on single lines, and to operate successfully we need passing groups, which would mean that if we were too lengthen trains we would need to lengthen the infrastructure to handle it. There are certain areas where there are restrictions in that regard. Also, we would be restricted with our signalling systems, but that would be the last restriction. The restrictions would come into play more in the area of passing loops, stopping and so on.

Mr. Frank Dawson

Collectively, we hope that on foot of a review of national policy by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, Iarnród Éireann would be assisted in reducing its track charges. Every other railway company in Europe is being assisted by the state as part of state policy. It is asking too much to ask Iarnród Éireann to absorb a reduction in track charges on its own balance sheet. It should be treated like other railway companies in the EU, in countries such as Germany, France, Belgium and Britain, and be assisted in that regard. As I said, €1.25 million would halve the track charges for the current amount of freight that is being transported, reducing its cost to industry and making it more attractive for growth.

Chairman

That is a point well made.

Deputy Michelle Mulherin

I welcome the witnesses. Many good points have been made by the members and the witnesses and it has been an interesting debate. While we are talking about the West-on-Track case, it gives us an opportunity to look at the bigger picture, which has been described, of development in the regions and the infrastructure problems if we continue to shunt everything towards Dublin. We will never get a solution unless we stop at some point and ask what is our vision. I commend West-on-Track. Mr. Howard Knott cautioned that we should be positive, but I am sure the down the years he encountered obstacles - no more than during the setting up of Knock Airport - because he was pursuing a project whose financial viability was not immediately obvious.

Mr. Cunningham correctly described the economic times he has had to deal with in terms of bringing the finances under control. It is all about viability. The beauty of Iarnród Éireann and CIE being under State control and the State having an input is that we can expect more than that, and perhaps it would allow his company to engage more proactively in a conversation, including with interest groups, on what is our spatial plan is and what is our spatial strategy for transport. We already know freight has been generated in our region. What is the solution for that? Passengers want to travel to different places. Mr. Dawson pointed out that Bus Éireann and the Galway-Limerick train service are competing with each other. We can understand how that has happened, but is that the direction in which we want to go? I have heard the comments of some Deputies who come from areas outside the west and outside the regions. With due respect, if we are not always going to have to ask for help, we need to be helped sufficiently to get to the tipping point after which services will become self-sustaining and many other positives will flow from that. Money is always a problem, but during the boom there was a great deal of money in circulation and not much to show for it. Perhaps we could have that conversation.

With regard to the port of Foynes, it seems the question is when the port will be developed. I did not have the benefit of hearing the witnesses' presentations, but what they described is a no-brainer. The development of a proper port in Foynes would provide an opportunity for businesses in the west and the region north of it to transport goods there. It would present a great opportunity in view of the volume of freight that is being generated and with the ramping up of foreign direct investment in our area, along with the plans and hopes for more.

It is not just a pipe dream, as 90,000 jobs have been created and plans have been set out under the regional enterprise strategy to shunt out development to the regions in a concrete, tailor-made way. Those plans will look at obstacles and how to overcome them, as well as opportunities. That is my observation on Foynes, which involves rail freight. Being realistic, on the passenger side of things, most of us will not get on a train that will take a lot longer to get somewhere. If we are being serious about giving things a chance, these are some of the difficulties that the witnesses have described in the past. I acknowledge that they have been at pains to explain that there has been a great deal more co-operation with Iarnród Éireann, that there is a different view and that a lot of these things are being addressed. However, it is necessary to have the proper journey times.

Regarding the solid business case, I agree that we must always be responsible. There is a tipping point to get to that and we must allow for it. I urge my colleagues from Dublin and other areas to consider that. No matter what party one is a member of in the west, we cannot just look at this in a piecemeal fashion. The approach must be more holistic.

Mr. Dawson referred to assistance in reducing track charges. That is the most pertinent question I wanted to ask him about. What does that mean?

The position in respect of freight from Ballina is impressive, and we are delighted with the activity. When freight stopped being subsidised, a sufficient interest in the service continued. From talking to users, it appears a great deal more could be made of that, and I acknowledge that West on Track is coming from that perspective. Mr. Dawson might elaborate on that.

Mr. Frank Dawson

To elaborate, track access charges are those charges imposed by the railway infrastructure company and the railway operating company for the use of the infrastructure. It is like road tax, but it is a rail tax. It is calculated according to a 1,000 tonne track kilometre rate. For every 1,000 tonnes travelling 1 km, there is a set rate throughout Europe. Because there is no assistance available to Iarnród Éireann, our charges are €9.80 per 1,000 tonne track kilometre, whereas elsewhere in Europe the rate is anywhere from €1.50 to €2.50. According to my calculations, total track charges paid by Mayo trains are, I suspect, in the region of €2 million per year. I do not have access to the entrails of the accounts. If they were reduced because of a State subsidy, the cost being passed on to the logistics company would be more attractive.

Deputy Michelle Mulherin

Is Mr. Dawson referring only to freight?

Mr. Frank Dawson

It is freight only. I am only talking about Mayo freight.

Deputy Michelle Mulherin

Mr. Dawson is not talking about the tonnage of the passengers.

Mr. Frank Dawson

No. There are track charges for passengers, but that is another day's work. We are talking exclusively here about the attractiveness for a customer seeking to charter a train. I reiterate that Iarnród Éireann should not be asked to bear the burden of reducing those charges when no other railway company in Europe is being asked to do so. The cost of subsidy is not extraordinary. As I said earlier, the return has been calculated to be 4:1. For every €1 of subsidy offered to Irish Rail to reduce the charge, economic calculations suggest the State will receive €4 in return in carbon and congestion savings. It is all based on a business case, which is why Britain is allocating £23 million to £24 million a year to subsidise rail freight. It is why France put €900 million on the table to be spent over a number of years to subsidise track charges. We do not do it and, as such, we are very much out of step with the rest of Europe.

Chairman

There are freight trains from Ballina currently. They are paying a higher rate than they would in any other country. Are they saving money by not transporting by road? It might be a naive question, but it is well meant.

Mr. Howard Knott

It is a not a naive question; it is one that is constantly being asked. Why in heaven's name do it? I suspect the primary reason is that the major user of the service in Ballina, a multinational beverage manufacturer, wants to have the lowest possible carbon footprint for its product. It has a policy that its logistics throughout Europe, the Middle East and other markets should use the method of transport with the lowest carbon emissions available. It uses ships and trains rather than trucking routes. That is a fundamental thing. However, the company is not stupid either, and while it uses the rail network, it does not want to be overcharged. It has arisen through very good and fruitful co-operation with Iarnród Éireann and the freight forwarders involved that the company has struck a price for the job that, based on full trains, is more or less the same as one would pay for trucking, taking into account a number of other technical benefits. It is on the margin, and it is clear that if the access charges were dropped, costs reduced, trains lengthened and speeds increased, there would be more traffic, and less freight would be put on the roads.

Chairman

Based on what Mr. Knott is saying, there would be a rush of customers if these charges were reduced, and profitability would increase.

Mr. Colmán Ó Raghallaigh

It is not that there would be a rush, but we are aware of the potential that exists in the area of timber, for example. A doubling or trebling of timber freight is possible if the types of change we are talking about come into play. Even without that, it is likely that there will be significant growth in that area in the very near future. There are other companies that are interested. Three industries in Tuam indicated last year that they would be interested in using rail freight if the Claremorris-Athenry connection was brought back into service. As Mr. Knott said in reply to Deputy Fitzmaurice, they would not fill a full train themselves, but they might put two or three boxes a week onto a train that was coming through Tuam. There is every kind of possibility. Deputy Mulherin understands this very well as she is from Ballina, and her point about Foynes is very well made. A consultant speaking to us recently told us that the whole dynamic for rail freight in Ireland will be changed completely once Foynes comes back onto the map. What one will then have is the potential for growth and development along the western route on north-south axis. Currently, we cannot use that route because of the missing link. Foynes is not currently connected either. Like the Claremorris to Athenry route, Foynes is a siding in engineers' possession. It is not a closed railway either. In many respects, both are identical.

The whole dynamic of regional development etc., involves all kinds of spin-offs that not even we can envisage yet, which will come from connectivity. Iarnród Éireann must be helped and enabled on a number of fronts. It is not that it is an unwilling partner, but while it is more than willing, it must be assisted. For our part, we will continue to work with Iarnród Éireann, Irish exporters and the Government, where we are given the opportunity, to try to ensure that these positive developments are brought forward as quickly as possible so that, as the Minister, Deputy Paschal Donohoe, has said, we can add value to our existing infrastructure.

Chairman

It has been a very interesting discussion and articulation of the potential of a whole lot of things. Obviously, there is a need for certain things to happen to unleash the potential that is there.

I am glad we have had a balanced view of what is possible. Sometimes the media reports take a one-sided view. The witnesses have set out the indisputable facts of the case, which we will consider, and this will allow us to form a balanced view.

I thank Mr. Don Cunningham and Mr. Niall Grogan, who had to leave a few moments ago, Mr. Colmán Ó Raghallaigh, Mr. Frank Dawson and Mr. Howard Knott for putting their case.

I am sure the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport will be keeping a close eye on this, and we will be able to clarify for him any issues that relate to the points that were raised at today's meeting.

Mr. Colmán Ó Raghallaigh

Chairman, I thank the committee secretariat for its assistance in preparing our presentation. I thank all the Deputies and Senators who attended this meeting.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.20 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 11 March 2015.