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Joint Committee on Transport and Communications díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 21 Sep 2022

Issues Impacting the Taxi Industry: National Transport Authority

The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss issues impacting the taxi industry. For our first session we are joined by officials from the National Transport Authority, NTA. I welcome Ms Anne Graham, CEO, and Mr. Hugh Cregan, deputy CEO. Both are very welcome back to the committee.

I must read the note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to any person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members of the constitutional requirement that they be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not able to meet this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member participating using Microsoft Teams to confirm that he or she is on the grounds of the Leinster House campus prior to making his or her contribution. If attending in the committee room, members are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I invite Ms Graham to make her opening statement.

Ms Anne Graham

I thank the committee for the invitation to attend. I understand it wishes to focus on issues impacting on the taxi industry. To assist me in dealing with members' questions I am joined by Mr. Cregan.

The NTA recognises the devastating impact the Covid pandemic has had on small public service vehicle, SPSV, drivers and the SPSV industry and that the impact is still being felt today. It will take a number of years to recover to pre-pandemic numbers of vehicles and drivers, let alone to grow the industry further. What we have seen in recent times is a significant increase in demand for SPSV services but the numbers operating in the industry are not yet back to 2019 levels at peak times. While the NTA is working to deliver some alternative public transport services operating 24-7 in our cities, it will take a number of years to deliver alternatives due to other constraints and, therefore, the authority has to regulate the SPSV industry taking the prevailing external environment into account.

One of the key vehicle licensing requirements is the maximum age of the vehicle. The maximum vehicle age was introduced to ensure vehicles were in good working order and safe when operating as a public service vehicle. Its commencement followed the wide-ranging review and subsequent report of the taxi review group in 2012. International benchmarking has shown Ireland’s ten-year rule is not onerous in comparison with other regulated jurisdictions, with seven- to ten-year maximum permissible ages for SPSVs being the norm.

During the Covid-19 pandemic, a number of measures were taken to support the SPSV industry, one of which was the introduction of emergency regulations to temporarily extend the maximum permissible age of taxis and hackneys in the SPSV fleet because a lack of passenger demand during the Covid restrictions had decimated the earning capacity of SPSV operators. As a result of these emergency regulations, no taxi or hackney was required to exit the SPSV fleet as a result of age between 2020 and 2022.

It had been proposed that the extension of vehicle age would be removed at the end of 2022. However, some recent significant challenges have arisen that have impacted on vehicle availability and have obliged the authority to consider the vehicle age limit again as it is not feasible for all end-of-life SPSVs to be replaced throughout the next 12 to 15 months. The stark change in vehicle supply predictions in late August by auto manufacturers has resulted in exceptional contingency draft regulations and a public consultation paper on extending vehicle ages during this exceptional period being submitted to the NTA board on Thursday, 8 September for its consideration.

The board approved the commencement of the public consultation last Friday, which was then published on Monday, 19 September. Every licence holder received a notification of the supports proposed to be made available under these contingency measures. The NTA is proposing the enactment of the Small Public Service Vehicle (Contingency Measure - Vehicle Supply) (Maximum Permissible Age) regulations 2022 to allow SPSVs with a final operation date in 2023 and 2024 to operate until their date and month of final operation throughout 2025.

Representatives of the taxi industry raised a number of matters in their discussion with the joint committee last week and I would like to take the opportunity to respond to some of them. First, on the transferability of vehicle licences, the Taxi Regulation Act 2013 introduced a prohibition on vehicle licence transferability, such that all SPSV vehicle licences are unique to the person to whom the licence has been issued and cannot be transferred or sold to another person. There is no monetary value associated with the SPSV licence, which is available for €125, with renewals at €150 per annum or €75 per annum for a wheelchair accessible vehicle, WAV. The advisory committee on SPSVs had considered this matter prior to the pandemic but has not been in a position to finalise their advice on this matter given the emergency policy matters that had to be considered during the pandemic. It is my understanding that those pieces of advice will be with the Minister and NTA in the coming weeks.

The Taxi Regulation Act 2013 allows for the nomination of a person to transfer the operation of a vehicle licence on the death of the holder, subject to the suitability of that person. This very simple one-page nomination form should be completed upon initial licence receipt but can be lodged with NTA at any point. It is a free service and the party nominated can also be changed at any time by the licence holder without charge. The NTA has taken every step to ensure that licence holders are aware of this requirement. Reminders on the section 15 nomination process were included in five publications sent to all industry members by SMS and email over the past two years alone. Independent research carried out on behalf of NTA in October 2021 found that 91% of taxi licence holders were aware that no one could take over their vehicle licence unless an S15N nomination form had been lodged with NTA; only 22% had submitted the nomination form; and 69% said they intended to submit it but 42% were unsure who to nominate.

I turn to rental and leasing SPSV operation. Nomination forms are not the only way to have another SPSV driver operate your vehicle whether you want to retire with an income, ease a relative into the industry as mentioned last week or just use the car as a business asset rather than a family car. SPSV driver licence holders can operate a licensed, insured vehicle owned by another person. The vehicle licence holder retains responsibility for the management of his or her licence, ensuring adherence to the vehicle related regulations and must maintain a valid insurance policy. Where two drivers or more are operating the vehicle, insurance premiums naturally rise as the risk is greater. This is no different from the old style “cosy driver” situation or, indeed, for normal adding of a daughter or son to a private car policy. However, for taxi drivers, there is a facility to advise insurers that only the SPSV driver who is renting the licensed vehicle may drive it and this removes that multiple driver premium increase. Finally, a decision to rent to another licensed driver does not mean any money needs to change hands if this is not wanted, for example, if a parent is giving a son or daughter a leg up into the industry. As mentioned last week goodwill is the consideration not money.

On drivers actively working, 85% of licensed vehicles have been checked by our compliance teams while operating this year proving that operators are back providing services to the public. Driver licence renewals are increasing each month with a 72% increase compared to 2019. New driver licence applications are also up significantly with an increase of 132% compared to last year. Some 944 new driver licences were issued by An Garda Síochána in the last year. The number of drivers returning their licences to active status having taken a break during Covid is also up by almost 30% on last year.

On event planning, all major events undergo extensive transport and traffic management planning. Such planning encompasses transport needs, road traffic management, public safety and the impacts on communities living near to these locations. The NTA is an integral part of that process along with other stakeholders such as An Garda Síochána, events planner and local authorities. SPSV requirements are considered by those parties in common with all vehicular transport.

It has been suggested that suitability tests and the NCT test be carried out at the same time. The NTA does not have jurisdiction over the NCT testing regime nor the legislation that governs the NCT. The Road Safety Authority, RSA, is the responsible agency for NCT. It can take a minimum of 48 hours for the NCT test result to be updated onto the National Vehicle and Driver File, NVDF, to become accessible to the NTA. The failure rate for taxis completing the NCT can be as high as 64%, particularly in older vehicles. If a suitability inspection was booked for the same day as the NCT, it would result in up to 64% of SPSV suitability inspections not being completed, with no opportunity to fill the unused appointments. Such a low utilisation rate would substantially increase the cost of licensing for operators having to pay for both a no-show and a second suitability inspection.

I refer to eSPSV22 grant payment timeframes and their fitness for purpose. For eSPSV2022, the committed payment turnaround in the information guide and terms and conditions is 20 working days from payment form receipt. On average ,11 working days was achieved, with a median of eight working days for payment. The eSPSV22 requirement to have an active vehicle for a prior three year period to apply for the grant is a matter raised with the Department of Transport for consideration in its eSPSV terms and conditions.

That concludes my introductory statement. I trust that we can answer any queries that arise.

I thank the witnesses. I welcome the fact that a consultation is ongoing. It was before the end of August that it became apparent it would be needed but I am happy to see it. What is being suggested around those provisions? Will drivers be able to operate their vehicle to their date in 2025?

Ms Anne Graham

Yes, up to whatever the date would have -----

Where it was 2023 or 2024, they will now operate to that date in 2025.

Ms Anne Graham

Yes.

I want to ask about the process of coming to the decision. The NTA board was notified of a recommendation. Who was that recommendation from? Was it the Taxi Advisory Committee, TAC? How is the committee involved in this process? Ms Graham may have heard that there is lots of concern among drivers that the committee is not a useful forum.

Ms Anne Graham

The decision on changing the regulation was a matter for the executive initially.

Is that the NTA executive?

Ms Anne Graham

Yes. However, it was discussed on an emergency basis, because this is an emergency contingency regulation. It was brought to an emergency meeting of the Taxi Advisory Committee before it was brought into the public domain. The emergency contingency regulation was sent to the board with its papers a week before the board meeting. The board meeting happened last Friday and it approved the public consultation on this draft regulation.

With regard to the involvement of the Taxi Advisory Committee, is it consulted in advance of that?

Ms Anne Graham

As I said, this all occurred in a very short space of time.

Yes. On that basis, let us look at how decisions were made previously. The end of life provision has been extended on a couple of occasions. Is there a standard procedure in this regard? Do the regulations always go to public consultation? Did they go to public consultation the last two times as well?

Ms Anne Graham

Every regulation goes for public consultation. In normal operational times, when we are not in an emergency situation, the TAC would be advised of proposed regulatory changes and advice would be sought in advance of bringing that to the board. We did not have the time period to do that. It was such an emergency in terms of the issues that had arisen on a geopolitical front relating to the availability of fleet and what was impacting on that availability. That is why it had to be brought in a very quick process to the board so that we could go out and give comfort to drivers that are facing their vehicle becoming ineligible because of their vehicle age and turning that around as quickly as possible.

Deputy Cathal Crowe took the Chair.

This issue has been raised repeatedly in the Dáil. On the last occasion that the CEO was here I stated that we needed action and now we have reached the eleventh hour. Last week, the committee heard from taxi drivers who told us that these issues are let run right up to the wire and then a decision is announced. That is not a decent way to treat people. When will the consultation period be completed and a decision be made?

Ms Anne Graham

I will check and supply the closing date in a minute.

Ms Anne Graham

I think it will be the November board meeting before a decision is brought forward.

On the last occasion the CEO attended she talked about increasing fares, that the new fare structure commenced at the start of August and a recruitment campaign. How is the recruitment campaign going?

Ms Anne Graham

The recruitment campaign is going very well. As I indicated in my statement, we have seen an increase in the number of drivers coming forward. I reiterate that driver licence renewals are increasing each month with a 72% increase compared to 2019 and new driver licence applications are also up significantly with an increase of 132% compared to last year.

Is that post the recruitment campaign? There are in the region of 700 new licences. Does the CEO have an assessment of the recruitment campaign that started in July?

Ms Anne Graham

Our 2022 figures for driver licence renewals show that from June the number was up 38%, in July it was up 37% and in August it was up 37%.

Yes, so the NTA has seen a bounce in those figures. The CEO has said that the taxi advisory committee, TAC, has not had time to make a formal proposal. When is that expected?

Ms Anne Graham

We expect to receive its advices in the next few weeks. The taxi advisory committee was advising on and going through a number of policy issues but then Covid hit and we just dealt with the emergency situation. Now we are in a position that the TAC can start advising on policy matters that had not been dealt with prior to the Covid pandemic.

I note that we started the speaking order a little bit differently. Does Senator Buttimer wish to comment next and then Deputy Ó Murchú?

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for being here. We are discussing a very important issue this week, and we discussed it last week. I thank the Cork Taxi Council for its extraordinary work and engagement. I pay tribute to its chairperson, Mr. Bobby Lynch, for his active consultation and engagement with us as public representatives. I also thank him for being a strong voice in representing the taxi industry.

Ms Graham's presentation has established that there are significant challenges in the context of taxis in Cork and beyond but I shall focus on Cork primarily. Deputy O'Rourke has just touched on the point that transferability is a key part of the taxi industry and I have heard Ms Graham's remarks on transferability. I ask that transferability is opened up again. I will give an example with which Ms Graham may not be familiar with but I hope she is. There is potential for a taxi licence plate to cost €6,500 but that money is gone when the taxi owner retires or passes away and the cost goes with the driver. It would be great if the NTA expedited a decision that takes on board the legitimate and genuine concerns of the taxi industry about transferability.

There is another issue that I have heard about following my consultations with taxi drivers. I wish to put it on record that I have two brothers-in-law who are taxi drivers. Taxi drivers asked that a decision on the age of cars is made now not to prolong the consultation period. Taxi drivers have made the argument to me, and most recently when I hailed a taxi last Sunday week, that we had the Covid period and now we have the cost-of-living crisis but decisions were made in the short term rather than for the long term. We must take cognisance of two points, the first of which is that the price of second-hand cars and vehicles has gone through the roof. Second, there is a shortage of taxi drivers. Therefore, it is important that a decision is now made about the age of the car. I suggest that the NTA introduces a moratorium now and that extra consultation is no good to anyone who must change his or her taxi in January or now. I again ask that the decision is made now, rather than prolonging the extension period.

Taxi drivers in Cork have also raised the issue of a grant now being paid to drivers to buy an electric car. The difficulty is very simple. Taxi drivers must pay money upfront in order to change their car or vehicle but, in many cases, because of Covid they do not have that resource now in the context of being able to pay garages. Can the NTA, as a matter of urgency, consider ways to enter an agreement with garages regarding scrapage, money and making things more equitable in order that cars or vehicles can be changed? I will come in again after I have heard the response from Ms Graham.

Ms Anne Graham

I thank Senator Buttimer. On vehicle age, we are trying to give certainty to the industry for at least the next two years so that means 2023, 2024 and 2025. The regulation does set out how we roll that back. Ultimately, we want to get back to a maximum vehicle age of ten years because we think that is appropriate for the industry. Also, as I said earlier, between seven and ten years is the norm in many other regulated industries. However, in these exceptional circumstances, as the Senator has pointed out, the cost and the availability of good second-hand vehicles as well as the availability of either hybrid or fully electric vehicles have meant that there is a constraint in terms of vehicle supply. We recognise that situation. We do not want to reduce the number of taxi drivers in the industry because there is a high level of demand for SPSV services. It is for that reason we brought forward this regulatory change in order to give some certainty to the industry for the next few years.

Ms Anne Graham

The NTA has a statutory requirement to carry out public consultations and there are associated timelines. We will complete consultation and bring the decision to our board in the earliest possible time so that once approved, if the board approves it, the decision can be communicated to drivers as quickly as possible.

What is the modus operandi for taxi drivers who hope to change their vehicles in January? What are they to do?

Ms Anne Graham

Unfortunately, we cannot give taxi drivers an indication of how the board will decide in a number of weeks. We can only give an indication based on the regulation that has gone out for a public consultation. That gives some understanding of what will happen but we cannot give any comfort yet until the consultation period is over and the board has made its decision, which will be done in the earliest possible time.

Can the CEO understand how frustrated and anxious taxi drivers are who are due to change their cars imminently and suddenly are being obliged to incur a cost that may not necessarily happen due to the consultation period?

Ms Anne Graham

Yes. Such taxi drivers, if they want to, could decide to change their cars if there are cars available. It is a choice for taxi drivers. We cannot speed things up any further than we are speeding them up. We are responding urgently to a contingency that has just arisen in the last number of months following the war in Ukraine.

There are other components that are making it difficult for the manufacturers of cars to give any indication of the lead-in time for new fleet. Then, we are having significant problems in the second-hand market as well. We responded as quickly as we could and that is now out for consultation at the moment.

The Senator asked a number of other questions. On the issue of vehicle transferability, the cost that he quoted in his question is related to what an individual driver may have paid for his or her licence. However, that is not the cost of a licence in today's world. As I indicated, the amount for a new licence holder to apply is in the hundreds of euro and not in the thousands. We do not have a cap on the number of SPSV licences or on the number of drivers entering the industry. We encourage as many people to take either vehicle licences or driver licences and we encourage as many people to come into the industry as possible. It is a requirement to come into the industry with a new vehicle for it to be wheelchair accessible. This is part of our accessibility agenda to improve accessibility across all of our services. We are currently at approximately 17% of all fleet. There has been quite a drive through grants and through encouragement to get to that level. That is not even where we want to be. We want to be much further along regarding wheelchair accessibility. That is another reason we would like vehicles not to be transferred unless they are wheelchair accessible.

Would transferability be able to help the shortage issue in the short term, allowing for progression? I fully support the accessibility piece. If we take Cork as an example, the use of wheelchair accessible taxis for special education, in the context of hospital visits and so on is extraordinary. However, I ask that we find a solution to the issue of transferability. From talking to taxi drivers, I know that they are looking for that solution rather than looking at it as a problem.

Ms Anne Graham

This could be achieved in another way, through the leasing of a vehicle, rather than necessarily transferring that vehicle. It is possible to achieve what the Senator has set out, but in a different manner, as I set out in my opening statement, in respect of vehicles being available for rent or for lease. That is another means of ensuring that vehicle stays within the industry, as well as the change to the maximum age of vehicles that is now being put forward in regulation.

The Senator also asked about the electric grant and taxi drivers having to have the money upfront. However, we have an arrangement that the grant can be paid to the garage or to the supplier of vehicle. That has been in place since the beginning of the grant scheme. It does not mean that the individual has to pay upfront and then receive the grant after. We can make that transfer directly to the garage or to the vehicle supplier.

I am delighted to hear that and I thank Ms Graham for that. That is a positive development. From talking to people in the industry, I know that some of them are not aware of this. I ask that the NTA would highlight that issue.

Ms Anne Graham

We will do.

That would be advantageous and I thank Ms Graham for that clarification.

I just have one final point in the context of meetings and engagement. I have been asked to ask that Cork would be included in meetings because it is the biggest taxi meter area in the country and it only has a part-time SPVS centre. Could Ms Graham look at that as an issue? Finally, I thank the Cork taxi council for its engagement and I thank Ms Graham for her availability today and for her ongoing engagement with the committee.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell took the Chair.

I apologise to Ms Graham and Mr. Creegan for being delayed. I was running late. I call Deputy Ó Murchú.

I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee. They have dealt with some of the questions that have been brought up. At the tail end of the previous contribution they were dealing with the SPSV grant. A number of issues were thrown at us. There is the fact that there is a difficulty currently with trying to acquire an electric vehicle, which might not necessary line up with the time at which a driver needs to change his or her car. There is also a difficulty whereby, for example, drivers could be forced by circumstances to buy a diesel car. Then, for three years, they cannot consider the EV grant, accepting that they will probably have expended a large amount. That might not necessarily suit. There was the issue that Senator Buttimer raised regarding upfront payments. The driver representatives said that sometimes drivers had to wait until their vehicle was scrapped, which would mean that they could be off the road for a considerable time. That is the way that it was put to us, was it not, Chairman?

Correct.

Ms Anne Graham

I am not aware of that position and it is not the position that we would want to put the industry in. As I said in my opening statement, we just administer the grant. The terms and conditions associated with that grant a matter for the Department of Transport and we administer it on its behalf. We have raised the matter of the three-year period with the Department, which is considering that.

When Ms Graham says that the officials are considering it, is there a timeline for that? Are they reviewing it?

Ms Anne Graham

We have made our case to the Department. It will come back when it is in a position to come back, but at the moment we continue to raise that matter in relation to the grant. As I said, we are not aware of any requirement for a vehicle to be scrapped to receive the grant. I am not sure what that relates to.

What Ms Graham is saying is that this lies within the bailiwick of the Department. We as a committee need to make sure that we pose these questions to the Department from the point of view of reviewing this. It seems that taxi drivers were in support of the amount and so on but there were difficulties, some of which relate to the market, but we need to be able to facilitate people as much as is possible. From the point of view of the taxi representatives who were in front of us, the Taxi Advisory Committee seems to be a dead duck. That creates a large number of difficulties. They do not see it as being a representative body that can do business from their point of view. What is the proposal to deal with that? How can it be dealt with?

Ms Anne Graham

The Taxi Advisory Committee is set out in statute and includes what the committee is, its remit and the different representations on that committee. It advises not just the NTA, but the Department and the Minister. The Minister makes the appointments of the representatives. It is, therefore, not a committee of the NTA, but a separate, statutory body and it is set out in statute. We continue to work with the advisory committee as it is currently constituted.

What is Ms Graham's view on the committee? Is it fit for purpose or does it need a certain element of tweaking? This question is not meant to do a disservice to anyone who is sitting on the committee at this point in time.

Ms Anne Graham

I do not think that it is appropriate for us to comment on whether anything is fit for purpose, because it is not a committee to which we make the appointments. We continue to work with the committee as it is constituted and we will continue to work with them.

I did not expect Ms Graham to answer that. I have a question specific to my constituency, which relates to licence holders who live in the North, who have a Northern driving licence and who are looking to apply for an SPSV licence.

One person who contacted me had been refused. I do not have great clarity regarding this matter. The car he was driving was registered in the South and it was a southern business. I am fairly sure many people have found themselves in these circumstances and found a solution. I wish to know, however, the A to Z of what that man should do.

Ms Anne Graham

I had got a note on it, but I do not have it with me. I will be happy to send a note to the Deputy on this matter. If there is a particular licence he would like us to follow-up on, I am happy to do so.

There definitely is. I made contact about this issue previously and submitted parliamentary questions. The problem was that the answers were never very clear. Reference was made to the type of licence, but it never stated that a Northern licence could not be used. The person I referred to, though, was not able to do the SPSV test.

Ms Anne Graham

Okay. I think this is related to some decisions that some officers are making regarding PSVs. I will get the definitive answer for the Deputy, rather than giving him incorrect information.

Yes. Will we have an opportunity to come back in at a later stage?

I inquire because I am going to ask a question now that does not relate to taxis.

I assume that-----

Ms Anne Graham

I am happy to do that. Before we continue, can a matter concerning the scrappage issue be clarified by Mr. Creegan? I do not wish to give an-----

We appreciate that the witnesses cover a wide remit and are always on top of their brief. I suspect there will not be worry or undue concern if one of the members-----

Ms Anne Graham

No, not at all. That is no problem.

Fine. I call Mr. Creegan to deal with the issue of scrappage.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

In respect of the full electric vehicle grant, there is scrappage involved. I checked this this morning. There does not have to be any delay, and unusually there is no delay through that process. If the full grant has been availed of, then the old vehicle must be scrapped and a certificate to that effect must be obtained. Usually, however, that is done through the garage supplying the new vehicle. A bit of organisation must be put in place, but that should not cause a delay.

Okay. That is my time and it is enough.

I call Deputy Cathal Crowe.

I followed the opening statement from my office. I thank Ms Graham. The members have well covered the topic of vehicles and changing them.

I wish to home in on another issue that arose last week, that of taxi ranks in town centres. Over the past 18 months or so we have seen major investment in paving schemes and main street renewal in our towns and cities. This has included bollards, paving systems and outdoor seating areas. In that mix of infrastructure, taxi ranks seem to have disappeared or at least to have moved to back streets. This has bothered many customers, and taxi drivers. Everyone is interested in sustainable and integrated travel. At 2 a.m., though, people coming out of nightclubs or pubs are not really going to get a rental bike or escooter. On a rainy winter's night, people will want to jump into a taxi and the major focus will be on where it is possible to find one. Is the NTA concerned in this regard? Does it have input into the decisions of the local authorities concerning where all this infrastructure is positioned?

Ms Anne Graham

The placing of taxi ranks is a matter for local authorities. We do not have a specific role in their provision. Therefore, it would be a matter for the local authority to consider the needs of all the customers in a town and to try to ensure taxi ranks are available where there is demand for them in a town centre.

That is good. I hope the NTA will be able to give some guidance to local authorities. Certainly, as these new paving schemes come on stream, the taxi ranks are disappearing. People trying to find taxis at night are going down less safe and poorly-lit streets. This brings us back to a point made by Mr. Jim Waldron last week. Speaking about anti-social behaviour, he said:

It has become more prevalent and there are things that the Government and the council could do to help the public as much as the drivers and we have said this for a long time; better located taxi ranks, properly lit tax ranks - possibly with CCTV, possibly with marshals so that people know where to go in a taxi rank.

Will the witnesses comment on some of the ancillary infrastructure that is required in a rank area?

Ms Anne Graham

Again, this is a matter for the local authority. A great deal of work is being done to encourage and support the wider night-time economy, and in ensuring that all public spaces are safe, we would of course encourage more lighting and the facilitation of a feeling of safety in the public space. This extends to taxi ranks, and wherever people might be waiting for a taxi vehicle or public transport vehicle, if one is available.

Would the realm of marshalling not be within the ambit of the NTA?

Ms Anne Graham

No. It would not be something it would be within our function to do. If a local authority were in a position to do that, then it could fund that type of endeavour, but it is not a statutory matter.

Moving on, I met with the chief executive of Bus Éireann. I made the point that there are two categories of people who take the bus. One is the everyday users, who know exactly what they are doing. It is like the situation with the person in front in the queue in Starbucks who is able to order a coffee with no problem. There is a whole language around ordering a coffee in there. People who go in every day know what they are doing, while someone like me will go up and ask for a large tea. It is nearly the same experience with the bus. There are people who step on, tap the card and they know exactly where they are going to get off. Then there are intermittent users, those who use the services less frequently and tourists. People like that are supposed to get to a bus stop and somehow decipher what is going on, including when the next bus will arrive. I know there is an app and that things are improving in this regard. All those improvements have been made at bus stops, and a roll-out is still under way in this regard.

Go to a taxi rank, however, and it is different. My father recently had to take a taxi. It was probably his first time to do so in about 20 years, and the things that had to be considered included would cash be okay, would it be necessary to tap a card and what was the Free Now app. There was a lack of information. Therefore, I suggest that the type of standardisation being undertaken at bus stops could also be done at taxi ranks. Ms Graham is probably going to tell me again that this is a matter for local authorities, but I think the NTA needs to steer this and have an information pack. I say this because I was in another European country this summer and this type of information did exist at taxi ranks. It enabled potential passengers to gain full awareness. If they wanted to go down and read the little sign erected on a galvanised pole, they could know exactly what was ahead of them. There was a bit of transparency. It would be good if there was something similar here.

Ms Anne Graham

We can certainly consider that idea. If a local authority is allocating money to the provision of a shelter or something at a rank or some means of identifying where the rank is, we can certainly put in place something that would give more information to customers. We would have no problem doing that. We are updating the information at Dublin Airport now, because it is outdated. Therefore, we must do several things to ensure the best information is given to customers.

Is it envisaged that Leap cards would be used in taxis at any stage?

Ms Anne Graham

Not Leap cards, but, ultimately, our next development in respect of ticketing is to have what we call next generation ticketing, which is an account-based system. Once we have a situation where people have accounts, there could be a facility to have an account that would work for public transport and small public service vehicles, as well as other forms of transport. The system we are putting on place and procuring now will be set up to allow the possibility of facilitating those kinds of integrated payments later.

I will finish on this issue, which the Chair is aware of too. I have my little timetable for the week, which shows me where I have to be next and where I have to go after that, etc. I also have my train reservation numbers written on it, because we still live in a realm where we must punch these into a machine to print out tickets. If we are talking about integrated Leap cards, for taxi travel and everything else, then regarding ticketing at railway stations, and there are not too many of them in Ireland, surely we should be able to get to a point where it will be possible to have these reservations on phones and to show them on the train. In fact, I have seen people miss trains in the station in Limerick because of this. A queue of ten people could be waiting to print tickets-----

It happened to my good self.

-----while the train is about to leave. It should be possible for people to run down the departure platform and have the train reservation information on their phones. This should be simple to do. Will Ms Graham comment or give us some hope in this regard?

Ms Anne Graham

Unfortunately, it is not simple. We would love it if it was. The ticketing system associated with Intercity travel is managed by Iarnród Éireann. Usually, the prices linked with that are booked online.

Iarnród Éireann is trying to move towards a barcode, which would be a much easier way of identifying a ticket. That work is ongoing. We are also trying to see whether that barcode can be read by TFI Go, our mobile ticketing app, so that there is some integration, but there is work involved in determining that. It is not simple.

I thank Ms Graham.

Did Deputy Ó Murchú get to ask his non-taxi-related question or does he wish to pass over to his colleague?

I thank Ms Graham and Mr. Creegan for attending. I made a number of general points last week. I am aware of the pressures facing the taxi industry in Cork particularly, but also generally. Sometimes, the Department, the NTA and other statutory agencies do not place enough emphasis on taxis being public service vehicles and the crucial role that they play in the network. They enable many train and bus journeys. It is vital that this be remembered.

We await the outcome but the ten-year rule is a key issue. I appreciate that vehicles need to be in good working order, but cars have to pass the NCT anyway, so there is a certain arbitrariness to the ten-year rule if a car is proven by another arm of the State to be roadworthy, safe and so on. I welcome that this matter is being examined. There are drivers who cannot get electric cars even if they want to. There are drivers who do not have the cash in hand to buy any kind of new car. If we do not want to see an exodus of drivers, it is important that we address this matter.

Transferability comes into play in two ways. Ms Graham's opening statement addressed the issue of where someone had passed on and the rules in that regard, but what happens while a driver is quite ill? A taxi driver has limited flexibility to transfer a licence while ill. That is a car off the road. I agree to a certain extent with Senator Buttimer about drivers potentially leaving the industry. Transferability could be part of the solution.

I have a question about the taxi advisory committee. It was mentioned that it is not a committee of the NTA and is under the Department. Is that correct?

Ms Anne Graham

Yes. It is a committee that is set out in legislation and advises the Minister for Transport and the NTA.

It is not under the remit-----

Ms Anne Graham

We administer it. We provide the-----

That was going to be my next question. I can see that the minutes are on the NTA's-----

Ms Anne Graham

Website.

There are NTA officials who attend to give it briefings and so on. That does not necessarily mean that it is the NTA's committee-----

Ms Anne Graham

No. It is at the request of the committee that we attend.

I understand. While a change in legislation would be required, it suggests that the NTA has a role in how the committee operates. I wish to raise the issue of representation. Taxi drivers who are on the taxi advisory committee to represent taxis are primarily multi-plate owners or from the Dublin region. There is a feeling that the country outside Dublin and single-plate owners do not get much of a say. Perhaps a change in legislation is needed to address constraints on the number of taxi drivers who can be on the committee.

Another complaint is that, although it is an SPSV advisory committee, SPSVs are in the minority by far, particularly when persons who are not on the committee but are present are taken into account. Strictly speaking, they do not have a vote, but being in the room has an influence over how conversations develop. Will the witnesses respond to these questions on how to improve representation? Would it all be within the remit of legislation or is there scope in how the NTA administers the committee to improve it?

Ms Anne Graham

No. We administer it, which is really just about being there to take the minutes on behalf of the chairperson, and we attend when requested to do so. The setup and representation are set out in the legislation and all appointments are made by the Minister. Any change to that would have to be presented to the Minister for Transport and his Department. We work with the committee as it is constituted and we will continue to do so while it remains so.

I accept Ms Graham's explanation. Is it possible for the NTA to explore means of communicating directly? Legislation constrains how many people who can represent the interests of drivers, co-operatives and so on. While the people who are on the board are doing the best they can to get the information out, the feedback loop is constrained. Is it possible for the NTA to communicate more directly with the general body of drivers, co-operatives and so on as regards the variety of issues arising at the advisory committee?

Ms Anne Graham

That would undermine the workings of the committee. In terms of representation, at least four persons representing SPSVs and driver interests are on the committee. There are also four places for people who, in the opinion of the Minister, have a special interest and expertise in the functions of the authority, the advisory committee or related matters. As set out in the legislation, a significant proportion of the committee represents the interests of SPSVs. Our function in terms of communicating with the industry is to communicate with all SPSV drivers and licenceholders, which we do through regular bulletins, SMS and emails, so as to ensure that they are communicated with in respect of all of the various policy matters arising. That is what we are obliged to do for the industry.

It is not within the NTA's remit, but I will pick up on a set of minutes from January 2021. Ms Graham says that SPSVs have significant representation, but how many people are in the room? I am highlighting this for the record. It is not the NTA's fault and it cannot do anything about it. At the January 2021 meeting, there were three people representing SPSV and driver interests as against the chair, a person representing the Garda, someone representing the interests of consumers, someone representing the interests of people with disabilities, someone representing the interests of business, someone representing the interests of older persons, someone representing the interests of tourism, and two people with special interests or expertise. That is nine people. Also present were three people from the NTA and two-----

Ms Anne Graham

The NTA is not a member of the committee.

Ms Anne Graham

Those people were there to speak to the committee.

Yes. There were two more people present from the Department. That makes 15. I am not putting this on the NTA's shoulders. I expect that these are not meetings that regularly hold votes or where formal majority decisions of the advisory committee are made. It is not like an Oireachtas committee meeting. In a practical sense, however, it is logical that people in the room influence the discussion. I am not blaming the NTA, but I am putting it on the record that taxi drivers make a legitimate point when they say that they are in the minority in the room by some distance. I appreciate that this is not something that the NTA can do anything about, but it is worth putting on the record.

I will ask a final question on this matter. I have another question on another matter, if the Chairman wishes to invite me back in on another round. The taxi licensing centre in Wilton, Cork, is only open three days per week. Is that a staffing issue? Demand is substantial.

The Deputy can cover that in this round because we have the scope to do so, but he has dealt with-----

I appreciate the considerable time that the NTA's staff have given today but also to the BusConnects process in Cork.

I have attended several events relating to the process. There are areas of concern. If possible, I ask that the NTA meet a delegation of Sinn Féin public representatives to discuss these issues further. Of particular concern is the area around Pearse Road and Ballyphehane where a significant number of parking spaces will be eliminated. Unlike some of the other areas where this is anticipated, however, there are no adjacent streets on which residents will be able to park their cars. That will be challenging. It is already a very busy road. I want to put that on the record. I would welcome the opportunity to discuss it further at a later date, perhaps at a meeting between Sinn Féin Deputies and councillors and the NTA.

Ms Anne Graham

I will respond separately to the Deputy on the taxi licence centre. I will check that out for him. Is his point that the vehicle check centre in Cork is only open three days a week?

I believe that is the case.

Ms Anne Graham

We will clarify that between us.

It needs to be double checked, yes.

Ms Anne Graham

Mr. Creegan may wish to respond on the Cork consultation.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

I am happy to meet with a group. I accept there are issues in respect of Pearse Road and several other roads in Cork. It is a challenging environment in which to fit in all we want to include, but we have had several meetings already and committed to make changes. I suspect that is an area where we will have to make changes. I am happy to arrange a meeting for whenever suits the Deputy.

I thank Mr. Creegan. In terms of the challenging environment, my father always said that if everyone followed the rules of the road in Cork, everything would grind to a halt. It is a challenging environment with lots of narrow streets.

In light of the news-----

I expected Senator Buttimer would want to come in. I was going to call on him in terms of Cork always operating as one.

I was going to come in on BusConnects. I know the meeting is on the issue of the taxi industry but the Chairman gave latitude to Deputy Ó Laoghaire. I hope the invitation extended to Deputy Ó Laoghaire by Mr. Creegan will be conveyed to all Members of the Oireachtas and parties-----

The Senator will find I had asked him whether he wished to come in. I have no doubt he does so wish.

May I make two points? Deputy Ó Laoghaire is correct. There are challenging issues in respect of driving in Cork and, in particular, in the context of BusConnects. The forums that have been held have been constructive and there has been a significant amount of engagement. I refer to the modal shift that is being accentuated by everybody. Some of us do not talk out of one side of our mouth and do something else. We support what we are trying to do. I ask that the NTA consider the consultation period and perhaps extend it because there is engagement. I know the city council has had a number of high-octane meetings, with many councillors voicing significant concerns. Some of the language used by councillors has been high octane as well. There is a need to have the consultation period on BusConnects extended. In fairness, the issue has been well handled by the NTA, but if it could continue the engagement and the public forums, that would be for the best. The engagements last week and this week have been very well received, but if it could extend the consultation further and the invitation sought by Deputy Ó Laoghaire could be extended to all Members, that would help to melt some of the ice in respect of BusConnects. The NTA has a lot of work to do in that regard. If it continues to talk and engage in a simplified and straightforward manner, unlike in the case of the N28 process, many people will have their concerns eased and the NTA may be able to find solutions. I thank it for its work so far.

Ms Graham and Mr. Creegan will appreciate that I am very familiar with seeking extended consultation periods. In the spirit of bipartisanship, I wholeheartedly support the call of Senator Buttimer.

I am glad the Chairman's educational foray in Cork has done him no harm at all. Given that representatives have appeared before the committee in respect of BusConnects in Dublin, the Chairman may receive a proposal from me to have a specific and stand-alone meeting on BusConnects in Cork.

Yes. Does Mr. Creegan wish to respond?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

We do not want to extend the formal consultation period but we do want to keep going with the dialogue and communications. We cannot publicly change the scheme while a consultation process is ongoing. It would be unfair to people who have made a submission if they were to be told we had changed the scheme and they needed to start again. We would like to finish the submission period but continue the various engagements we have had and work through some of the issues that have become clear to us to see if we can get solutions.

That is a fair comment. I apologise to the Chairman for coming in again. As Deputy Ó Laoghaire will confirm, it is a very emotive issue, as our guests know well. Many people who have never before been exercised on an issue are engaged on it. It is not nimbyism but, rather, genuine concern. If the NTA could continue to engage with people under the radar, in an informal way or less than formal way, that would be appreciated.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

That is understood.

Ms Anne Graham

That will continue. This is the start of the engagement. The engagement has to continue until we get to a point where we reach, it is to be hoped, some agreement on how we are going to achieve BusConnects in Cork in terms of better facilities and better priority for bus services as well as walking and cycling facilities to get to a point where more people are making more sustainable journeys. That is in everybody's interest.

It is fair to say the issue of finding a format to allow residents to raise their concerns is coming up everywhere. These are emotive situations. The NTA is familiar with public consultations. They have to be straightforward to work. They should not be held behind closed doors but rather done in such a way that everyone can engage. Senator Buttimer made the point that the NTA could consider holding not a formal process but a forum where the public could engage and get their views across. In many of these cases, people end up being pitted against one side or the other when, in fact, it is just a question of giving people time to consider the matter and go through all its facets. In many cases, the public are way ahead of the politicians and much more clued in than them in certain respects, because the change that is going through affects their lives.

Ms Anne Graham

We will take that point back with us. What Mr. Creegan is saying is we need to bring the formal consultation to a point where we can make changes and then take some of the heat out of the discussion so that we can present amended plans and then continue the discussion.

With a further public consultation.

Ms Anne Graham

Exactly.

I assume Deputy Boyd Barrett wishes to contribute.

I do. I thank the Chairman and the witnesses. I listened in to some of the responses of Ms Graham. On the 15-year rule, if I heard her correctly, she is saying the NTA cannot make a decision on that or a decision will not be made on it until public consultation is concluded. That is putting significant numbers of taxi drivers in a very difficult situation. They are getting very near a cliff edge in terms of the age of their vehicles and they are facing the prospect of having to make decisions about the purchase of new vehicles at the beginning of next year. In that light, I do not understand why a consultation on this issue is needed. If the NTA is tied into it, can we not get an indication that either the NTA, the Government or the Department, or all of them, are going to look favourably on what is an eminently reasonable request by the taxi drivers? Who would have to give such an indication?

Let us remember taxi drivers were absolutely hammered during Covid. Their business and their ability to make income collapsed. Some of them did not feel safe being on the road, while others continued to work and hold together the public transport system. They had to fight very hard for their plight to be acknowledged. Let us remind ourselves of that. Four taxi groups had to mobilise on the streets. Some of us had to push very hard even to have their case for the supports they needed heard here in the Dáil or at the Covid committee and so on. If they had not fought, they would have got very little support, if any, because initially they were left out when it came to supports. They have taken a two-year hammering and that makes it far more difficult for them to face this cliff edge in the context of the money they were able to accumulate during that period to deal with the ten-year rule.

I do not even understand the ten-year rule. If any other car passes the NCT and is suitable for the road, that is it; it is able to be driven on the road. Yet, for some reason, taxi drivers are singled out as a group that has to jump over an additional hurdle. I do not see the rationale for it. If the car can pass an NCT, it should have the right to be on the road as a taxi. Indeed, taxis that are adapted for disability have a 15-year limit so the same standards are not applied to all taxi drivers. There were some extensions to the rule during Covid as a result of pressure from the taxi drivers themselves. It was not the 15 years they are now looking for but there were some extensions. Did those extensions require statutory instruments? Who made that decision? Is it not possible to simply to do that now? Who could do it? I believe it should be done now. It is clear that this is what taxi drivers are asking for and it is a very fair request, further strengthened by the fact that they cannot get electric vehicles in the necessary quantities for people who might want to switch. They are just not there.

One of the points the taxi drivers made was that the NTA and the Government should be assisting in the procurement of electric vehicles, given the priority the Government is rightly giving to climate change, climate action and so on. The drivers themselves are experiencing difficulty in getting electric vehicles, if it is not impossible. What efforts are being made by the State to get the vehicles that would be necessary in order for taxi drivers to make that transition? In the meantime, it is well past time for the NTA and the Government to indicate that taxi drivers will get the extension they are looking for, which is very reasonable.

On the taxi advisory committee, the four major groups representing taxi drivers in this country have voted with their feet. They do not feel the taxi advisory committee represents them. They want the right to negotiate directly with the NTA and the Department about the issues that affect them. Nobody knows those issues better than the taxi drivers themselves. Does it not tell us that the taxi advisory committee is not fit for purpose when the four major groups representing taxi drivers in this country do not wish to be part of it? That tells us something. Does the NTA recognise that there is a serious problem when that is the case and that it needs to talk directly to the taxi representative groups in that regard?

If we did not know before, we should certainly know this after Covid and given the difficulties with the taxi fleet. People complain that the industry is regulated to an extent, in that the State decides how much a taxi driver can charge, for example, but that it is the only part of the public transport system that is not seriously subsidised in the way other parts of the public transport system are. If we value taxi drivers and the taxi industry as an integral, vital and unique part of the public transport system - which it is - that performs a role in the public transport system that no other part of that system can play, surely we have to talk about giving bigger supports and proper subsidies to that industry, to make it viable and attractive for people to be part of it. The call for transferability of licences is part of that. It is not the only part of it but it is part of trying to make it an attractive industry for people to stay in and facilitating people who might want to stay. Someone's father might be a taxi driver, for example, and they are sharing the taxi and then the child wants to take over that taxi plate. We should be listening to the taxi drivers and their reasonable request for transferability to make being a taxi driver and being part of that industry an attractive option for people.

Ms Anne Graham

With regard to public service vehicles and the ten-year age limit, that was the original rule which was extended a number of times as an emergency measure during Covid to the extent, as I set out in my opening statement, that no car had to leave the industry because of age through that Covid period. That was done through statutory instrument and regulatory change because that is what is set out in the Taxi Regulation Act 2013. It states:

Where the Authority proposes to make regulations under this Act, it shall—

(a) publish on its website a draft of the proposed regulations stating that representations may be made in writing to the Authority not later than 21 days (or such further period as the Authority allows) from the date of publication, and

(b) consider any representations made to it,

and may make the regulations with or without any modification.

That is set out in the legislation. We have no choice. The Act stipulates that we must publish it and seek representations.

Did the NTA seek submissions on the previous extensions?

Ms Anne Graham

Yes. All the extensions and regulatory changes that were made through the Covid period were done as emergency measures but they had to follow the same regulatory process. Similarly, now we are responding to a particular contingency where the fleet, whether the second-hand fleet or the new electric fleet, is not available in the market. We also have an issue in that the industry has not recovered post Covid. We still have a high demand for services in our cities. The combination of those issues means we have to regulate for the external environment we are now in post Covid. That is why we are now further extending the vehicle age limit through this proposed regulation, which is now out for public consultation.

I ask Ms Graham to expand on that.

Ms Anne Graham

It is proposed is to extend the vehicle age again to allow vehicles-----

Ms Anne Graham

Yes.

Is that out for public consultation?

Ms Anne Graham

Yes, now.

When was that done?

Ms Anne Graham

It started on Monday.

Okay, so it is very fresh.

Ms Anne Graham

It is very fresh.

I am sorry for coming in, Deputy.

I ask Ms Graham to go through the process for us. We got a couple of things from the taxi drivers who came before us. They have come through Covid. I use taxis like everyone else. I get the train to Dublin and invariably get a taxi across the city. Many of them are going towards the EV route. It is attractive. However, the timescale is very late. Two things are happening. Taxi drivers' existing cars are going over the ten-year age group and in many cases, their licences are running out. When the licence is out they cannot drive. They are asking for a transitional measure in that regard. They are looking for an extension on the age of the car to 15 years and, if they have applied for an EV and there is a delay in the EV coming, they are asking that a moratorium be put on their licence to extend it and enable them to drive until they get the EV. Our understanding is they can only apply for the licence if they have the new car. One of the consequences here is that in some cases, they will be so desperate to drive that they will not go the EV route. They will invest in another car that they probably cannot afford which will not be an EV. The drivers are very upfront that the EV grants that are available for them are very welcome. They are very honest about that. That is positive. They are asking for that transitional measure to allow them to make their living and still take the EV route. They also asked if they could be given a parallel lane to get EVs in a quicker way but that is a different matter. I am sorry for cutting in but I just wanted to give context.

Ms Anne Graham

I would just make a distinction between those who are in the industry at the moment and those who are not. The representatives who were before the committee last week represent existing drivers. On moving towards an EV, they have a current driver and vehicle. This proposed extension, which is part of the regulatory change, will allow them to retain their vehicle until it gets to a point where there are more electric cars available so they can avail of the grant, subject to the Department providing another grant next year. That is not-----

If a driver changes their car to an EV, my understanding is that to renew their licence on the EV, the other car more than likely has to be scrapped. There is a lag in time.

Ms Anne Graham

They do not have to do it until they have the vehicle purchased and in place. There is not a-----

I got the impression from the taxi drivers that it was a matter of paperwork. I bow to my colleagues on this.

We went through this with the representatives. The process is such that if a taxi driver has a car that is ten years old and he or she applies to purchase an EV, he or she will not only get a grant but will also benefit from the scrappage on the old car. It is an overall package. Our understanding is that if, in that interim period, the driving licence comes up for renewal, he or she will not be able to drive the car that is older than ten years, which will have to remain parked in the forecourt. Moreover, the driver will not be able to renew his or her licence unless he or she is driving a vehicle, and he or she cannot go with the EV unless he or she scraps the old one, and there is a time lag there. Am I correct in that regard?

That is my understanding.

Ms Anne Graham

The ten-year age limit is not there currently. It was there pre Covid and it was suspended through the Covid period for a further two years.

What is the current limit?

Ms Anne Graham

It is 12 years. For a wheelchair-accessible vehicle, 17 years.

The NTA extended the disabled vehicle age limit by two years, from 15 years to 17 years.

Ms Anne Graham

Yes.

At the moment, therefore, a limit of 12 years, not ten, is in operation.

Ms Anne Graham

Yes. It was due to come to a halt in 2022, which is why drivers are concerned.

On 1 January 2023.

Ms Anne Graham

Yes.

The NTA has gone out to consultation to extend that by three years, to 15 years.

Ms Anne Graham

Yes.

What is the timeframe for that consultation and when will a decision be made?

Ms Anne Graham

Twenty-one days is the statutory consultation period.

When that comes back, what will be the process to extend it? Will there have to be a statutory instrument, SI?

Ms Anne Graham

Yes, but that is very quick. The next stage in the process is that it will be formally approved by our board. We will issue a report to our board and we will do that as quickly as possible.

That is very welcome.

Ms Anne Graham

We are responding now to a different kind of emergency. We are now post Covid, we hope, and there is a high demand for services. The economy has returned and at peak times, people are looking for services, especially in the cities. We cannot afford as a country to have a loss to the industry when, at the same time, the industry cannot put its hand on vehicles, whether they are electric or second-hand.

Equally, the ambition for the industry is that we will get back to an earlier position. Part of the regulation relates to a wind-out process-----

For how long will the limit be extended to 15 years?

Ms Anne Graham

It is up to the end of 2025, after which we want to roll it back, over a three-year period, to get back to ten years. This is a public service vehicle being operated. Taxi drivers carry members of the public in their vehicles, and it is appropriate that the vehicle be of a high standard. When ten-year vehicles go forward for their NCTs, they have a high failure rate. Moreover, because of the quality of vehicles after they have been driven for ten years, we require the NCT be carried out every six months on vehicles of more than ten years in age.

We very much welcome the fact the public consultation started on Monday. After 21 days, that will bring us to mid-October. When that comes back, the NTA will get the SI changed and Ms Graham expects that the vehicle age limit for taxi cars will be extended to 15 years up to the end of 2025. What will be the rollback for the following three years?

Ms Anne Graham

Post 2025, the limit will reduce by one year in age, a further two years in the following year and two further years in the year after that.

I have to attend another meeting shortly. I would not mind getting answers to my questions. I am sure taxi drivers will welcome the disposition being shown here, if that comes to pass, but I underline that the main reason we have ended up here - this is not in any way to cast aspersions on our guests - relates to the fact the taxi representative groups made their voices heard. They came in here, got themselves organised, particularly during Covid, and made their voices heard. They have been making requests and pointing out the difficulties they are facing, and as a result, the system begins to respond.

To me, there is a lesson to take out of that, namely, that the NTA has to engage directly with the taxi representative groups. They have stated repeatedly that the TAC is not fit for purpose and that it is not a suitable vehicle - pardon the pun - for negotiations between the people who work on the coalface in the taxi industry, on the one hand, and the NTA and the Department, on the other.

Ms Anne Graham

Vehicle age is not an issue that just arose in recent years. Ever since we introduced the regulatory requirement for a ten-year maximum vehicle age, that has been an issue for the representatives of the taxi industry. This is not a new issue; it has always been an issue.

Indeed, but it is a life-and-death issue at the moment.

Ms Anne Graham

We responded to that during the Covid period and we are now responding to it as a result of other issues, including those relating to vehicle supply and to the fact that there is a high-----

I have never understood the rationale of this. Ms Graham stated taxis should be of a high standard, and I agree, but the implication of a car passing the NCT means that other cars out there on the road are not passing. If they do not pass the NCT, they do not pass it, but taxis that do pass it then have an additional hurdle to jump over. To my mind, there is simply no justification for that. Either a car passes the NCT or it does not. Either it is suitable for the road or it is not.

Ms Anne Graham

I am just saying there is an indication that given the level of failures of the NCT by vehicles of a certain age, particular investment is required in those vehicles, and that just puts another pressure on the taxi industry to keep vehicles equipped and in a position to be able to offer a safe service to the public. That is the position.

On subsidising the system, the grants that are provided, whether the wheelchair grant, which has been in place for a number of years, or the high level of grant to transfer to an EV, amounts to the State subsidising the replacement of vehicles in the industry. Approximately €15 million is set aside for the EV grant this year, along with a further €2 million for the wheelchair-accessible grant. That is the kind of order the State is expending each year to subsidise the industry to change vehicles.

Transport and those who were willing to work were key during Covid. Now we discover, due to shortages and so on, although we should have known all along, how much we need taxi drivers and how important they are. They are in the most precarious position of anybody in the public transport system. We would not say, "Ah sure, we will just see how things go with buses”, as to whether they can make it or afford it. We would not say it about trains either, yet we say it about taxi drivers. On their behalf, I underline that point. More support is needed if we are to take the industry seriously as an integral and vital part of the public transport system.

Ms Anne Graham

It is an integral part of the public transport system, regulated by us to ensure that a sufficient and good-quality service is offered to customers. A cost is associated with that regulatory environment to ensure we provide that regulatory environment for customers.

There are other areas where the State has subsidised the provision of taxi services, particularly in rural Ireland. We offer a subsidy to provide a local area hackney where there are no hackney or SPSV services, and we have found it very difficult to get in place some of those vehicles and services for very rural areas. Where we find there is no service available, particularly in rural Ireland, we have set out that we will subsidise the provision of that service. Similarly, with community car schemes, a different form of transport, we offer a subsidy to try to ensure that a service will be available, especially in rural Ireland.

However, in cities, given the response, demand levels are now 25% higher than they were pre-Covid. Therefore, there is the facility for the industry to make a good living now because the demand is so high. We have also increased the fares associated with the provision of services by 12% on average to cover the increased cost to the industry. We believe that taxi drivers can now recover what they may have lost during the Covid period given the demands that are out there in the industry now.

I repeat the call that they are making for direct negotiations with the taxi representative groups on an ongoing basis.

I will come in with my own questions to clear up my head. My understanding is that the following scenario is possible. If a taxi driver with a ten-year-old car decides to go for an EV, they will have to wait six to nine months for it. If, during that period of time, their existing car goes over ten years, they will have to park up that car. If their licence has also run out, bearing in mind that they can only renew that licence once they have the new car in situ, my understanding is that they have to renew it on the car they are driving at that moment in time. However, changing to a 15-year rule should overcome that particular issue.

Ms Anne Graham

Yes.

That is positive.

On the taxi advisory group, I have a slightly different interpretation but I will put it forward anyway. We had four groups here. They had all been on it at some stage, with one of them joining it more recently and still being on it. They were not satisfied by the way it operated and were very upfront in that regard. They would like it to function as a forum where they can put forward their views, which would then be taken on board in decisions. They believe, at this moment in time, it is not fulfilling that function.

I refer to the make-up of that group. Ms Graham said there are four people on it. The representatives who were here said that there are people on it who are not involved in any of the taxi groups and are stand-alone taxi drivers. Do people apply to the NTA to go on it?

Ms Anne Graham

Not to the NTA, but to the Department of Transport.

That is the way it works. In terms of how the taxi advisory group operates, is that entirely a function of the Department?

Ms Anne Graham

On the Taxi Advisory Committee and who is represented on it, the appointments are made by the Department of Transport, namely, the Minister for Transport.

Who determines how it functions and the terms of reference?

Ms Anne Graham

It is set out in the legislation.

The Department of Transport is involved as well.

Ms Anne Graham

The legislation is there and would have come through the Department of Transport. This followed an extensive review that was done in 2012. Part of that would have been a review of the Taxi Advisory Committee at that time.

As a committee, we are obviously going formulate views and write to the Department. It is the facts of it that I want to know and, at this stage, I do know.

On the transfer of licences, it was not down to money with them in the main. It was basically about being able to transfer it to a family member and such. Has that been looked at in terms of ease of passage in cases in which no money is involved?

Ms Anne Graham

As I set out in my note, they could lease or license it. I will refer back to my notes.

Those were they key points that I got from the-----

I wish to make a brief point on that. The Chair seems to be saying that one can get a licence for €125, but one has to have a disability-adapted taxi. Is that correct? Therefore, one has to purchase a new taxi, which could cost €50,000, and there is some grant aid available, whereas transferability would mean that the licence could pass on to a family member for a saloon licence.

It happens on a death. I think if-----

Ms Anne Graham

That is if the vehicle licence transfers to an individual. However, one does not necessarily have to transfer the vehicle licence to a family member. What people could do is retain the ownership of the vehicle licence. However, if somebody has a family member who has an SPV driver licence, they could operate that vehicle and the responsibility for the vehicle remains with the family member. It would be like any sharing, such as the cosy system, where a vehicle is shared. It just means, as I said, there might be an increase in costs of insurance associated with that unless the person, through the insurance, is nominated.

The only time it passes is on a death.

Ms Anne Graham

That is the way the legislation is structured now. One can nominate a person now, before-----

I accept that. It is almost like the old cosy principle.

Ms Anne Graham

The cosy principle involved a number of people operating one vehicle.

This would be slightly different. It is the lease of a taxi.

Ms Anne Graham

There could be a cosy system within a family or another partner outside the family.

Within the same vein, the NTA is responsible, basically, for all public transport, in terms of routes and so forth. I refer to the issue of the increasing need for transport police to address the antisocial behaviour on public transport. People should be entitled to safety both while riding public transport and getting on and off it. Does Ms Graham have a view on transport police?

Ms Anne Graham

Any policing is a matter for An Garda Síochána and the Garda Commissioner.

I accept that. I ask in regard to Ms Graham's wider remit in terms of public policy around public transport.

Ms Anne Graham

On how we engage with the operators and how the operators then engage with An Garda Síochána, we have tried to ensure, in working very closely with An Garda Síochána, how they will respond and how they can improve their response to incidents, whether they are on public transport or not, or manage their policing, particularly around areas that might be hotspots of antisocial behaviour. We have seen that through the engagement over the past number of years. We have an antisocial working group within the-----

It is a major problem for the drivers of public transport.

Ms Anne Graham

They have the facility, through their radio system, to contact their control centre, which can contact the police directly. There has been very good response from An Garda Síochána.

Is it an issue to the point, in terms of how safety in public transport is dealt with, that there could be a need for a dedicated transport police?

Ms Anne Graham

I do not agree with the provision of a dedicated transport police. I would like to see, through the engagement we have with An Garda Síochána, that the policing function ensures there is good coverage in terms of a requirement-----

Why would Ms Graham not agree with a dedicated transport police?

Ms Anne Graham

How would one choose where to place the dedicated transport police? What services would one choose? It would be impossible to cover every service that is operated across the State. We have a national police force. If there is an incident in any part of the State and if we have good working relationships with An Garda Síochána, as we do and our operators do, the operators can call upon the Garda in any part of the country to give them assistance where the incident has occurred or is about to occur. I think that is preferable to having a dedicated transport police on particular services. However, the operators provide security at different points and spend a significant proportion of their budgets on security where there are known issues associated with antisocial behaviour and at particular points of the day. We would be looking and monitoring closely to see whether we need to increase that level of security across our services.

I use public transport a good amount, particularly trains. I have witnessed situations where people certainly would not be comfortable. People just move away or whatever. We are trying to encourage more people to use public transport and there is security at train and bus stations. I accept all of that. What do we need to give that level of comfort? In particularly high-density areas with large transport, is there a need for, dare I say, a dedicated transport inspectorate of some form that ensures safety? An Garda Síochána does great work and I accept that. However, it is increasingly becoming an issue.

Ms Anne Graham

We do an annual survey of public sentiment about people's feelings of safety on public transport. We will have the results of that shortly. While there was some anxiety, particularly around light rail and rail systems, during the pandemic when fewer people were travelling, that seems to have eased as we have returned to busier public transport. People obviously feel more comfortable when public transport is busy than when services had fewer people travelling on them. We can see that across the different modes and particular locations where there might be issues. If we feel there is an issue in a particular location, we will work with the operators to provide additional security. However, there has not been a considerable deterioration in people's sentiments about how they feel about safety on public transport. We will keep that closely monitored.

Does Ms Graham expect the figures the NTA is about to publish to be similar to last year's figures?

Ms Anne Graham

They will be similar to last year.

There is a lack of taxis late at night. I do not know if this issue was covered earlier. What is Ms Graham's view on that issue? How can it be addressed?

Ms Anne Graham

During the post-Covid recovery, there are approximately 11% fewer licensed vehicles on the road. There has been a similar drop in driver's licences. A number of licences were allowed to become inactive during the emergency period. Many of those are now coming back into the industry. The figures are less severe in Dublin. Approximately 5% fewer vehicles are available compared with pre-Covid times. We are seeing recovery in that regard. We have conducted surveys with taxi drivers who indicated that if we changed the fares and a higher percentage of a fare increase were to be associated with the peak times, which are usually during the night time, they would be more inclined to work. We are trying to encourage more people to work during those peak travel periods at night time. A new fare was introduced on 1 September. We will monitor that to see if it has resulted in any changes in respect of availability.

Our other response regarding the availability of services at night time, particularly in the cities, is to work to provide much more public transport, including 24-hour public transport in our cities.

That was something taxi drivers pointed out was unavailable. They felt they were the last outpost after midnight in many locations.

Ms Anne Graham

In most cases, that is true. We always had Nitelink services in cities on Friday and Saturday nights. We are now moving to 24-hour bus services in Dublin. Eight such routes are operating at the moment. We want to roll those out as we roll out the BusConnects network in Dublin. We have one 24-hour route in Cork that has also been successful. As part of the roll out of the BusConnects network in other cities, we would like to operate a number of services on a 24-7 basis.

When does Ms Graham expect BusConnects to commence in Limerick?

Ms Anne Graham

We want to look at a new network before the end of the year.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

We will be designing the network starting at the end of next month. It will probably go to consultation towards the end of this year and will run into next year. There will be a new draft network into which people can feed.

When will that be published?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

It will be published in either December or January.

Of this year?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

It will be published in either December of this year or January of next year.

When will it go to public consultation?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

That is when it will go to public consultation.

Ms Anne Graham

Public consultation will happen around that time.

Public consultation for BusConnects in Limerick city will happen in January or February of next year.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

That is correct.

Ms Anne Graham

That is for the network.

Yes. What will happen then?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

We will follow through and look at the infrastructure after that. We have a bit more to do.

Will that be just for the routes?

Ms Anne Graham

That will be just the routes.

How long do our guests anticipate BusConnects will take, moving through construction and the operation of the routes? What is the timeframe?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

I am speculating, but if we broadly get the design right we will be in a position to start implementing it, subject to extra funding, in 2024.

How long will it take to implement?

Ms Anne Graham

We could do Limerick in one or two phases because it does not need the extensive-----

Is that a one- or two-year project?

Ms Anne Graham

If we have funding available in 2024, we will deliver it in 2024.

The NTA anticipates the routes going out to public consultation in January or February of next year. Design and so forth will be done by 2024.

Ms Anne Graham

We also expect delivery in 2024.

That delivery is subject to the availability of funding.

Ms Anne Graham

That is correct.

I welcome the representatives of the NTA. I wish our new committee clerk well in her position. I look forward to working with her.

The opening statement that Free Now made to the committee was interesting. One thing that piqued my interest was the vehicle age of the Irish taxi fleet. The representatives of Free Now made reference to that in their statement and I agree with them. When one travels through developed countries in western Europe, one sees that Ireland is, unfortunately, a little behind the curve on vehicle standards, and behind where we should be for the economy we have and the demand for taxi services. I am sure the NTA will be able to give some reference to that. Is there any quick fix to that issue, as we anticipate the budget, whereby the Government could have an impact? Grant supports and all of that would obviously be quite helpful but does the NTA have any particular recommendation for the Government?

Ms Anne Graham

Is the Deputy referring to reducing the vehicle age?

Yes. In Germany, for example, anyone who goes out the door of an airport will be met by premium saloon cars.

Ms Anne Graham

We are talking today about a request from the industry to extend the vehicle age to allow a vehicle to be retained in the industry. Our ambition is to ensure a maximum vehicle age of ten years. However, we need to extend that vehicle age because of the environment. As a regulator, we want all vehicles to be less than ten years' old and in the seven- to ten years' range. That is the norm in other countries. In fact, seven years old would be the maximum in many countries.

Has the NTA engaged directly with the industry on this issue prior to today's meeting?

Ms Anne Graham

This is part of our discussions. Representations have been made to this committee-----

I am only here to offer my opinion and ask questions but I do not agree. This is an issue. I have had certain experiences, as I am sure many others have had. A taxi once broke down when I was travelling to Heuston Station and I missed my train. An ageing fleet of taxis is not a good idea. I might be unpopular for saying that but it must be said. Much lobbying goes on in the game and industry we are in. However, I feel we have a duty to the consumers, who are our constituents in the same way taxi drivers are. Those consumers want their voices heard. We have a lot of ground to make up. There are opportunities. The State has done deals with car manufacturers in the past. In London, for example, there is standardisation of vehicles and service. Hyundai has a deal with An Garda Síochána. The Defence Forces have similar deals. Perhaps a similar deal could provide for a discounted rate for the bulk purchasing of taxi vehicles. Skoda has become particularly popular with the taxi industry for the purchase of new vehicles. That is rare and is not something one would often see. That is my view on the matter.

Another issue that I wish to raise is topical in the light of what happened in west Dublin in recent days, that is, the issue of antisocial behaviour. It is coming up often. There were despicable scenes on the DART during the summer. I am not sure if representatives of the NTA have been before the committee since then. Those scenes of antisocial behaviour were all over Twitter and other social media. It is completely unacceptable. I take issue with the idea of private security on those trains. Those workers are put in a precarious position when they are trying to tackle antisocial behaviour from youths who are causing disruption on trains. They do not have the power of arrest. They must prevent themselves being assaulted and try to restrain people who are a danger to others. As a parliamentarian, I am uncomfortable about that. We need to be stronger on that issue. There are airport police in airports. I agree with the reference made by the Chairperson to transport police. We have a traffic corps and specific police for airports. It is time for a division within the Garda to be assigned to all public transportation routes. According to what is popping up social media, the issues seem predominantly to be occurring on light rail services, including the Luas, and train services. That is concerning. I do not understand why there would be opposition to a dedicated transport branch of the Garda.

Ms Graham might just expand on why, and we might have a couple of questions then.

Ms Anne Graham

It is a matter for the Garda Commissioner to decide what is appropriate in the use of policing resources. We try to work very closely with An Garda Síochána to ensure we can get a response if an operator requires it when there is antisocial activity happening or about to happen on a particular vehicle. Although many abhorrent events were shown on social media, we have to put them into the context of the number of successful public transport journeys that are made without any incident. While antisocial behaviour on public transport is abhorrent, it represents a very small percentage of people's experience of public transport. However, we need to ensure that we reduce the amount of antisocial behaviour to ensure the use of public transport is attractive. When security is provided, be it private or through policing, a decision has to be made on the services on which to make it available. The Deputy referred to all public transport routes. That means thousands of services-----

No, just on the light rail services. I do not believe it would not be possible operationally on bus services for some reason.

Ms Anne Graham

Then the question arises as to why one should choose one service over another. It just means that you have to make choices-----

The airports have their own security.

Ms Anne Graham

-----on the resources to put in place. That can become difficult with a resource such as a policing resource. We should be moving towards having the resource available behind the scenes to be called upon at any location where an incident might be happening, be it on a bus, Luas or rail service. Where possible, we should be responding before an incident occurs. In this regard, we want to see what we can do with technology to start using CCTV and have access to live CCTV systems so control systems can be alerted to what might be occurring. Thus, the activity could be monitored by the Garda in the future, or it could respond to what it sees on a particular-----

I agree with Ms Graham on that. The technology has been used very successfully by Transport for London, which I believe is the company with overall responsibility in London.

Ms Anne Graham

This is the area in which we would like to see innovation, working with An Garda Síochána to deliver that.

There is demand at the moment for what I am calling for. The public feel it is important. I tend to agree. I travel on public transport between Cork and Dublin quite regularly, predominantly on the train, and I also travel on the Luas network in Dublin when coming to my place of work. Like any other regular public transport user, I have seen incidents I would rather not have seen. I have seen incidents of all types through the years. Many of the incidents that private security personnel are dealing with would merit an arrest. That is why I feel we need police to do the work instead of private security operators. Alternatively, the police should complement their work. I referred to a division of An Garda Síochána. I understand the mechanics of having to create a whole new police force to deal with antisocial behaviour on public transport and the associated difficulties but a good stepping stone could be to have a division, just as we have a traffic corps. There are divisions within the Garda already.

Ms Anne Graham

I understand that.

It has the drugs unit and the special detective unit that looks after ministerial security. There are divisions across a wide range of areas, so it is not a stretch to recommend deployment on public transport. It would definitely be worth having the Garda Commissioner in with us again at some stage on this. We have had really positive engagement with the Garda, led by the Chairman. I believe deployment on public transport is needed. It comes down to bad situations where public transport users, including workers, are put at risk and where private security personnel must deal with activity that merits arresting somebody and taking the person away to remove that risk. That is the nub of it.

Ms Anne Graham

Private security personnel have access to An Garda Síochána-----

Yes, but they cannot arrest a person.

Ms Anne Graham

No, but vehicles have been stopped to allow for members of the Garda to make themselves available to deal with an incident. It is terrible that we are talking about antisocial behaviour on public transport. It is not what we want to see, but we have to be realistic about the fact that the services are public. We have to encourage everyone to use public transport. Unfortunately, some individuals make it more difficult for others to use it, but we will continue to work with An Garda Síochána on whatever it believes is appropriate for policing our system to ensure people feel safer.

I have to meet a delegation that is arriving shortly, so I must ask my final question. Where somebody perpetrates a violent incident on public transport and has travelled with a Leap card or some type of travel pass as opposed to a standard ticket, can the NTA cancel that card or travel method for a certain period as punishment?

Ms Anne Graham

We have not gone that far because the identity would not usually be known to us. The case would be prosecuted through the courts.

As a consequence of a prosecution, has the NTA no powers at this point in time-----

Ms Anne Graham

We do not have any powers to exclude an individual. Usually, the operators have through their by-laws but they are not really set out to be exclusionary. It depends on the person's age, obviously. On foot of the legislative process, I believe there are antisocial behaviour orders that the Garda can issue. As far as I understand it, these could exclude a person from a particular area. That might include public transport, but I am not an expert on that area.

It is a bit of an anomaly, I would say. It may be something to consider in the broad scheme of things.

We are going to follow up with An Garda Síochána on the issue of dedicated transport police. Ms Graham said there were many problems during Covid. There were; I witnessed them. Therefore, the issue has to be examined. If members of the Garda are walking the platform at a train station, it is the most effective tool available. It is a matter we will take up. I know the NTA has engaged with the Garda. We might come back to it on that.

There is a change in position regarding the ten-year rule. What prompted it? Was Ms Graham contacted by the Taxi Advisory Committee about concerns in the industry?

Ms Anne Graham

It was down to our own technical adviser, an employee of the NTA, advising us on what is happening in the automotive industry.

Does that not tell us there is a problem with the Taxi Advisory Committee if its responsibility under legislation is to advise the Minister or NTA on issues relevant to the sector? I have raised the ten-year rule with the Minister. I never received as firm a "No" as I received during Priority Questions several months ago. I am referring to public statements that go back to May. The four representative groups of the taxi drivers were shouting from the rooftops months ago that they had a problem. We have an advisory committee that did nothing and did not raise this as an issue. It is its responsibility. That, to me, is proof positive that it is not fit for purpose. That is my perspective on it.

I want to move on to a couple of other matters.

We will take that matter up with the Department of Transport. We know what the Deputy is saying. The secretariat side is done but the structure comes from the Department of Transport.

Ms Anne Graham

At the same time, we have an executive that also monitors the environment. We have a responsibility as an executive to know what is going on in the environment also. It does not completely rely on the Taxi Advisory Committee, but obviously we take advice from that committee on various matters. As the NTA-----

It was an executive decision to extend the age limit to 15 years.

Ms Anne Graham

Yes.

Ms Anne Graham

It was an executive decision made to the board, which is the ultimate decision maker.

It was an executive decision made to the board. It was nothing to do with the taxi advisory group.

Ms Anne Graham

No.

The fact that the Taxi Advisory Committee has not been jumping up and down about this issue for the last year tells me it does not have its finger on the pulse of the sector. That is my point.

The other issue I wish to raise with Ms Graham, which colleagues have raised with her previously, is the service provision by Go-Ahead Ireland. As transport spokesperson for my party, I hear about this from all sides. Colleagues with Go-Ahead services operating in their areas are in regular contact with me and it is the same story consistently. Is there a particular problem there? Is Ms Graham aware of it? What is being done in that regard?

Ms Anne Graham

There is a particular problem but it is not just for Go-Ahead. It is a problem across the industry that there are not enough bus driver resources available to operate the services that are currently contracted by both Go-Ahead Ireland and Dublin Bus.

Is it more pronounced with Go-Ahead?

Ms Anne Graham

It is more pronounced in terms of the effect. It operates fewer regular services so there is more time between its services. They are not as frequent as the services-----

A drop-off has a bigger impact.

Ms Anne Graham

Yes. We try to manage that with Go-Ahead as best as possible to ensure the services at the start and end of the day are definitely not dropped. We know the impact this is having on customers. What is required is the recruitment of as many new drivers into the bus industry as possible. That is challenging at the moment. We are seeing the same issues across other service industries, which are just not able to recruit the number of drivers they need. If that continues, only a number of options are available to us. If we cannot deliver the services because the drivers are just not available, we have to reduce the service level. That is not something we want to do and we have been resisting doing so. We did it over the summer period when the demand was a little less to try to allow Go-Ahead to recover in terms of getting driver recruitment. As I said, however, it is acute for Go-Ahead but it is impacting on Dublin Bus as well. As Dublin bus operates frequent services, the impact is not as obvious, other than on the real-time system, as it would be, unfortunately, for Go-Ahead.

My understanding is that when Bus Éireann operates routes, it deems that all drivers must be aged 70 or under. When companies secure from the NTA routes that have a public service obligation, PSO, does the NTA put an limit on the age of the bus drivers?

Ms Anne Graham

That is a commercial licence service. We do not put an age limit on the drivers.

Bus Éireann, in the operation of its routes, requires drivers to be aged under 70. Does Ms Graham have a view on allowing drivers who are aged 70 and over to drive buses? It is an issue with school transport and a number of other areas. Ms Graham stated there is a lack of drivers. This is one area in which the NTA could provide for a transitional period to overcome that issue.

Ms Anne Graham

I currently do not have a view. I would have to take advice on what would be appropriate and whether it would be appropriate to extend the age limits for drivers.

Has Ms Graham had a chance to look at the methodology and process in place for people to train as bus drivers? Is that sufficiently robust in terms of getting people through?

Ms Anne Graham

I understand it is robust because much of the training is done by the operators themselves. We have also been in touch with the Road Safety Authority, RSA, which does the licensing and testing. We try to see whether we can reduce the timelines for doing those tests and ensure the testing is available as quickly as possible to try to reduce that time it takes from the time-----

Does Ms Graham view the current lack of bus drivers as a short-, medium- or long-term problem?

Ms Anne Graham

Looking forward into the economy, it is very hard to know what is going to happen. We would like to think it is a short-term problem but we have to do as much as we can to try to encourage more drivers into the industry.

The NTA is looking at the issue.

Ms Anne Graham

We are doing a driver recruitment campaign, as are all of the operators. We will have to do more to identify why we are not seeing drivers coming into the industry and whether there is anything we can do, as an authority, to try to-----

Ms Graham might let the committee know when the NTA has that body of work done. It is an issue on which the committee is interested in following up. I call Deputy Ó Murchú.

I will read out information that comes directly from the NTA. It states that a 50% fare discount for holders of a young adult - those aged 19 to 23 years - or student Leap card - those aged 24 and over - is now available on bus services provided by participating commercial bus operators. The NTA goes on to say it is widening the age rules of the scheme to allow 16-, 17- and 18-year-old students in third level education to apply for the student Leap card so that they can also avail of the commercial bus operator, CBO, student discount. This particular difficulty has been raised by Deputy O'Rourke, me and many others. It appears this measure is intended to deal with students who will be travelling on buses. What is the timeline for doing this? I assume the young adult Leap card for those aged 19 to 23 is an across-the-board scenario. I imagine there are still a number of people who will not be covered by this. What technically defines a student? Is somebody doing an apprenticeship able to avail of this discount if he or she is in the relevant age bracket?

Ms Anne Graham

It is for third level.

It is for third level only.

Ms Anne Graham

It is third level only for those beyond the age of 23 and also, on the other side, for 16-, 17- and 18-year-olds. There is just a little bit of work that needs to be done on the systems, which will take a number of weeks to do. We will then be in a position to issue the cards to third-level students who do not fall into the 19 to 23 age bracket. That only applies on the commercial bus sector.

Ms Anne Graham

On the PSO side, people already avail of the child fare, which is a 50% reduction.

A segment of people are falling outside the bracket.

Ms Anne Graham

It is a small segment.

Ms Graham said it will take a couple of weeks. What are we talking about?

Ms Anne Graham

I cannot give the Deputy a definite time. It is being worked on and ensuring that matter is rectified is a priority.

We need it to be done as soon as possible. While I accept there could be unintended consequences, numerous people have contacted members to have the matter dealt with.

Are we any further on regarding the taxsaver ticketing system? Some private operators, for example, Matthews Coach Hire, were able to operate it because they obviously have their own systems.

Ms Anne Graham

We are not further on because the priority of the team working on the fares has been work on the young adult fare, both last year and this year. We have not been in a position to bring forward any solutions on the taxsaver system.

When will those new systems be in place?

Ms Anne Graham

Is the Deputy referring to the new taxsaver system?

I understood the difficulty to be that we did not have the systems in place, in other words, the electronic or IT system.

Ms Anne Graham

The system we have is quite old, particularly on the rail side. We do not have an easy ability to count the number of days-----

Ms Anne Graham

-----that people travel. We still have to do a bit of work on that but, unfortunately, our priority has been the work on the commercial bus operators and until we get that into a position where it is operating-----

The systems are being upgraded. I thought the NTA gave a date previously, even if it was not 2024 or 2025. Do we have a date at this point?

Ms Anne Graham

The taxsaver system is in place but it is based on an annual ticket. Is the Deputy is asking about a part-time taxsaver ticket?

Exactly. Ms Graham said the solution would be found when the systems were upgraded.

Ms Anne Graham

It would make it an awful lot easier if we had next-generation ticketing, which is an account-based system. That makes it an awful lot easier because people can be given deductions post travel. We are only at the start of the procurement of that system. It will take a number of years before we are in a position to offer that facility through the new system. We looked at whether there was something we could do in the interim. We have not closed that out completely. It is just that the focus has been on the young adult tickets. When we get that finished, we can focus on whether there is a solution to the coupon-type part-time taxsaver ticket.

I thank Ms Graham and Mr. Creegan. They are frequent visitors to the committee and we always find it constructive. Today was primarily about taxi drivers, who appeared before the committee last week. Once again, it was a constructive session. We welcome the proposed changes the NTA is making around the transitional period for 15-year-old vehicles. Its consultation is up and running. It is to be hoped it will be implemented before the end of the year.

We will come back to the issue of transport police. It is an issue that is coming up with the general public. People need to feel safe when they are on public transport. There will be a body of work on that, obviously involving An Garda Síochána, for which we will certainly do a segment.

We will suspend the meeting to allow the next set of witnesses to take up their positions in the committee room.

Sitting suspended at 3.41 p.m. and resumed at 3.43 p.m.

The purpose of the meeting is to continue our discussion on the issues impacting the taxi industry. We are joined for our second session by representatives from Free Now. I am pleased to welcome Mr. Niall Carson, general manager, and Ms Fiona Brady, head of operations and public affairs. They are both very welcome.

I will read the note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. Reluctantly, I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to the constitutional requirements. Therefore, any member who attempts to partake from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask members partaking via MS Teams that prior to making a contribution to the meeting they confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus. Members attending in the committee room are asked to accept personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I invite Mr. Carson to make his opening statement.

Mr. Niall Carson

I will share the opening statement with Ms Brady.

I then invite Mr. Carson and Ms Brady to make their opening statements on behalf of Free Now.

Ms Fiona Brady

I thank the committee for inviting us to speak on a most important topic, namely, issues affecting the taxi industry. Mr. Carson and I have almost 40 years' experience between us across public and private transport. It is an industry we are most passionate about. By way of background, Free Now is Ireland’s leading multi-mobility app and has been active in the market for ten years. Free Now is part of the Free Now group, a proudly European company based in Germany. We employ 39 people in Ireland, primarily based in our Dublin office on Baggot Court. Next to ride hailing, Free Now is expanding its multi-mobility offering in Ireland to include e-bikes and e-scooters.

The shock to economic activity due to the Covid-19 pandemic and restrictions on the movement of people directly and severely impacted the taxi industry. According to figures from the National Transport Authority, NTA, “the vast majority” - 90% of taxi drivers - stopped working at some point while Covid restrictions were in place. For our part, we provided supports to our partner drivers through free personal protective equipment, PPE, distribution for their day-to-day work, discounted partition screen installation, which members may have seen in taxis, produced booklets to help drivers navigate the range of Government supports available, which were very important, and consistently provided updates on the latest health advice and recommendations, including updates to the Free Now app to inform passengers and drivers of best practice.

The taxi market now finds itself at a pivotal juncture as society and the economy emerge from the pandemic. As it stands, taxi services are struggling to meet demand at certain times in cities throughout Ireland. In recognition of these challenges, in July of this year we prepared a detailed policy white paper on taxi supply in Ireland, which we have shared with the committee, as well as the Department of Transport, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the NTA. As a leading industry player, we want to constructively support policymakers' and regulators’ objectives to ensure the viability of this vital industry in the face of innovation and changing public priorities.

We also commissioned an Ernst & Young study looking at the viability of encouraging electric vehicle transition via tax incentives and grants, which we have shared with the Department of Finance and the Department of Transport. Taxi drivers are well placed to lead the way to wider switching among private car users and it is essential we have the correct infrastructure in place. Currently, Ireland has one of the oldest taxi fleets in Europe. Incentivising the initial barrier to transition to electric vehicles will help to modernise the taxi fleet and drive adoption among the most active cohort in Ireland.

I will hand over to Mr. Carson.

Mr. Niall Carson

By way of introduction, Free Now has been working in the market for ten years. We have worked with more than 1 million downloads through our passenger base. On the driver side, we have worked with more than 14,000 drivers throughout the country. In the past week, we completed jobs to all Twenty-six Counties. While we do not speak on behalf of those drivers, through our app we have data that represents the demand and levels of supply that exist.

Our supply white paper, for its part, explores a "big picture" view on how a viable, sustainable taxi industry can be encouraged through forward-thinking policy and regulation. It frames the current challenges facing the industry as an opportunity to consider changes that will stimulate new entrants and develop an ecosystem that is fit for purpose, and meets expectations of drivers and passengers alike. We identified four pillars in the white paper: changes to encourage new entrants into the industry; greater quality of market data through industry partnerships and technology; tackling supply problems at peak times; and, as Ms Brady referenced, embracing electric vehicles, EVs, to future-proof sustainable supply. Under these pillars, we set out 15 key recommendations on how to constructively tackle taxi supply issues in the short term, as well as the measures that could be put in place to ensure Ireland has a thriving, sustainable taxi industry in the longer term that supports drivers’ long-term careers, as well as changing user demands. We hope our recommendations will be seen as complementary to the work already undertaken by the Department of Transport and the NTA to create a suitable environment for taxi drivers to work within the wider public transport ecosystem in a new sustainable era of on-demand and accessible public transport.

I again thank the committee for the invitation to speak before it. I also thank the committee for the work it is undertaking to address taxi supply issues through its engagement with the industry and the regulator, the NTA. We welcome members' questions.

I thank Mr. Carson.

I thank FreeNow for presenting today and for its white paper which it circulated to us in correspondence. I might pick up on some of the points in it.

As a start, we had a conversation last week with representative groups. There are a number of issues that they had raised, in particular, the ten-year rule. I note it does not show up prominently in FreeNow's presentation other than that the transition would be managed. Is FreeNow supportive of the extension that has been sought by drivers? It is going to consultation.

Ms Fiona Brady

We are in the middle of a supply crisis here and to take vehicles out of the fleet probably would not be ideal. Within reasonable limits, we obviously are supportive of anything that can help the supply issue. When we pair that with electric vehicles, although this is a little bit down the road, any of the supports that could be put in place there potentially should be targeted at those vehicles that will churn first to upgrade that fleet. As I said, in the meantime, if there is a supply issue, we need every driver and vehicle that we can get.

There is a real supply issue at present. Could Ms Brady expand on some of FreeNow's recommendations in relation to encouraging new entrants into the industry?

Ms Fiona Brady

First, the regulated industry that we work in at present has served us well and we are supportive of it. There are potentially a few tweaks that could be made in order to enhance it. The Deputy mentioned encouraging new entrants into the industry. A couple of things there we could look at include, maybe, the test. Obviously, technology has moved on. There is the global positioning system, GPS, and such technology. I am not saying there should not be some level of standards. Of course, there must be. One must know the airport is north of Dublin, etc. In general, there is much technology that aids that. When we are looking at the test, maybe we could perhaps shift that heavy focus on geographical knowledge to more things, such as customer service, accessibility training and disability awareness. There could be a change in focus there and that would be helpful.

This is an ever-evolving industry. There are apps, such as ourselves, and they are different ways of working that can work well for individuals.

Mr. Niall Carson

To follow up on Ms Brady's statement, as private industry we have not been sitting on our hands on this. In 2018, we introduced a driver training programme which helps drivers pass the small public service vehicle, SPSV, test. That is available for free to them.

We as a company have been giving drivers a bonus to get them started in the industry, helping provide them with information around renting taxis and purchasing taxis. We wanted to make this industry as attractive as possible to drivers and support the work of the National Transport Authority, NTA, and the Department of Transport in driving up the numbers of drivers in the industry.

Okay. In terms of embracing EVs, FreeNow has ambitious targets. What proposals would FreeNow have in terms of the long-term financial incentive. Does FreeNow support the current EV grant model? Is it a good model? We have had a number of issues raised in terms of the practicalities of it. Is it something FreeNow is call for to be continued?

Mr. Niall Carson

To start with, we are so passionate as a company about this. I would have to state that it is not about commercial benefit. It is certainly a vision that we and our investors have in electrifying the taxi fleet and using as much net-zero transport as possible.

We announced previously a €6 million fund. It is called a grant-matching scheme. Where drivers who take up the grant, get an electric vehicle and launch, we will match the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, grant of €600 to help them install a home-charging unit. Some 80% of the drivers surveyed in a recent survey stated that they charge their vehicles at home. Therefore, that is an important support that we would offer there.

We have also run four electric vehicle roadshows throughout the country. We have a fifth one running at the end of October and we would welcome anyone to attend. Certainly, that is open to the full taxi-driver industry, not only to our own base.

It is something that we really want to help and support and push forward. We would be very supportive of the grant. That said, Ms Brady is more the expert. I will pass over to her to give us a further extension on it.

Ms Fiona Brady

I am absolutely supportive of the grant. It works. It is a very generous grant. Drivers were biting the hand off to get the grant and we have seen a huge amount of vehicles come onto the FreeNow fleet. At last count we had 860, which is a fantastic amount of electric vehicles.

Is that fully electric?

Ms Fiona Brady

Fully electric.

What is FreeNow's total complement? Is it 14,000?

Ms Fiona Brady

That is ever-registered. On a weekly basis, we would probably have 10,000 active drivers.

FreeNow has 800 EVs at present.

Ms Fiona Brady

I accept the number is small but I suppose we have to start somewhere. Our entire eco-fleet, which would be made up of hybrid and battery-electric vehicles, would be 36% of the fleet. All our trips are offset and any trip one takes is carbon offset.

In terms of the grant, it is a great scheme. Drivers loved it. We are quite conscious that something like that may not be sustainable in the long term and we recently commissioned a report from Ernst & Young to look at possible alternatives. The scheme works, the support works and for it to continue, there has to be something in place. Ideally, the grant would continue. If it does not, potentially, we could look at tax rebates, per-kilometre rebates or something like that that would still support drivers in making the switch. What they are doing is future-proofing their own business and taking the total cost of ownership down for them to operate.

Mr. Niall Carson

One myth that our data dispels is, even though those 800 plus drivers have battery-powered electric vehicles, that they do a greater percentage of their trips with us. They do 10% of all the journeys. It is not showing that they are limiting themselves by moving to battery electric. That is something stated in our communications or EV roadshows. We have a team of people contacting drivers who can avail of the grant - merely informing them of that and helping them through the process. Like anything, when one is applying for these things, there is a lot of work involved. We want to support the drivers on that.

Some of what prompted this series of meetings was the pressure on the taxi industry, obviously, in terms of sustainability, but also availability late at night. Some of the headlines over the summer, and maybe earlier than that, related to the amount of requests that had gone through FreeNow's apps at certain hours. For instance, there were thousands after Ed Sheerin. How is that looking now? Is there still a huge demand? Were there any headline figures from Garth Brooks at the weekend? I presume there was significant demand there. How is supply and demand marrying up now? If they could touch on that, I would appreciate it.

Mr. Niall Carson

We have extra data that we would be happy to share with anyone on the committee. It is a nationwide problem as well. I have data here from Limerick, Galway, Cork and Dublin. Garth Brooks was something that we had prepared for and we communicated to passengers as well ahead of that. It would not have been the same volume but one would still within an hour see up to a level of 10,000 requests coming through with the Dublin area. I will reference a few other ones. Ireland v. Wales, earlier in the year, saw 51,000 requests over a 2.5 hour period. The Marley Park concerts saw 50,000 over a three-hour period. Dublin saw Westlife with 35,000 requests over a two-hour period. Even within Limerick where there are 370 taxis registered within the country, there were 3,200 requests from 4 p.m. to 6 p.m. on 7 April where there was a race day in the city. This sort of demand would be reflected around games in Thomond Park. In Cork, there were 10,000 requests after the Westlife concert on 14 August.

When we spoke with the NTA, not today but earlier, it stated that the improved package that it has for out-of-hours or unsociable hours would improve matters. Is FreeNow seeing a reduction or a greater match between demand and supply, or is demand reducing as children are back to school and that sort of stuff?

Mr. Niall Carson

One of the areas that we are now seeing with children back to school was the morning peak. This is the sort of data that we have access to.

From 8 a.m. to 9 a.m., we see 5,000 requests across the country through our app. That is at a peak time.

What time is that at?

Mr. Niall Carson

From 8 a.m. to 9 a.m. It is commuter and school traffic.

When did that start?

Mr. Niall Carson

Just in the past two weeks.

With the return of the schools?

Mr. Niall Carson

Absolutely.

Has Free Now done any work to check if that is due to people taking children to school?

Mr. Niall Carson

No. I think it is due to people with children being time-poor. Unfortunately, taxis are often an alternative to public transport due to speed.

So it is a by-product of that?

Mr. Niall Carson

Exactly. We see a peak in demand. We will work with the driver community to educate them. They all know their own business. The 14,000 drivers are small business owners who know exactly what they are doing. We would offer incentives and different reward schemes for them to work at those peak hours. That is complementary to the changes that the NTA has put in place.

Ms Fiona Brady

There are a couple of things that we think could play into the issue of peak times. One is the extension of 24-hour public transport systems. It rests with taxi drivers to figure this out. We are supportive of staggered closing times too. The demand happens in a condensed period. If we were able to stagger that, services could be much better.

I will raise a couple of issues. The charge for Free Now's app was increased by €1, which was reported in the media. Why did Free Now increase the charge by €1?

Mr. Niall Carson

As I mentioned before, we have been operating in the market for ten years. We have invested more than €100 million into the market, on both sides, with educating passengers-----

Is Free Now an Irish or a UK company?

Mr. Niall Carson

Our shareholders are based in Germany. There are two original equipment manufacturer, OEM, car companies that wholly own the business. We have invested in that in Ireland. We have also invested in the driver community. We mentioned the €6 million fund for the electric vehicle matching scheme. We also have a training scheme, with a bonus, for drivers. There is an investment of millions on that side. We offer incentives at peak times each week. Significant investment goes into this.

While obviously incentives are commercially sensitive, what form would they typically take?

Mr. Niall Carson

Drivers completing a number of jobs at around peak times would receive a bonus to the revenue they receive through the app.

Free Now is at the coalface. It has 14,000 drivers, with 10,000 operating on any one day. At this moment, are people leaving or joining the sector? Where are the pinch points? When the taxi groups were in before us, I found that they were open about their situation. As the witnesses say, they are sole traders. I ask the witnesses to give their perspective. With the sheer number of taxi drivers that work with Free Now, what is the witnesses' overall view of the state of the sector? Are people joining or leaving?

Mr. Niall Carson

I can give a few statistics. I am sure Ms Brady will follow up. We referred to the four points in the White Paper and the changes to encourage new entrants. The taxi driving industry offers much flexibility. The drivers stated that last week. There is a strong opportunity to earn a living. Managed right, it can offer much flexibility. We want to work with technology too. Greater efficiency can be had from the use of apps. That can keep drivers busy. We know that if drivers pick up passengers in the city centre and head out as far as Greystones, there is still huge demand in that area for the driver to pick up other people. It optimises the national fleet of taxis. We are talking about tackling problems at peak times. That is a supply issue. We are here today to talk about those supply issues.

Mr. Carson referred to peak times. How often in a week are there not issues with the number of taxi drivers? When is the pinch point when there is an issue?

Mr. Niall Carson

The committee spoke about the two hours between midnight and 2 a.m. last week. That is a pinch point. There are also points earlier in the day, between 8 a.m. and 9 a.m. and 4.30 p.m. and 6.30 p.m., particularly when schools are back, which increases pressure. There are also points on Saturday afternoons and in the evenings when people are heading out and about. The Chair referred to the last-mile journey when speaking to the NTA earlier. When completing journeys after taking a train or whatever else, people need to take taxis. Surges in demand come with big events, such as sporting events and concerts.

Are the witnesses seeing new people coming into the sector?

Mr. Niall Carson

Since the introduction of our training scheme, we have brought 2,000 new drivers through and incentivised them. There would probably have been more, but the test centres were closed for the majority of the Covid pandemic, so drivers were not able to take the test. I compliment the NTA on reopening test centres after the Covid pandemic, which led to a surge in drivers. The time between when one takes the test and can be a licensed driver on the road is up to 16 weeks. I do not know if that could be accelerated. Many checks go with it.

Are sufficient numbers of people becoming taxi drivers to meet demand?

Mr. Niall Carson

Not currently. More needs to be done. The NTA is doing a lot.

What is the excess capacity? Is another 10%, 20% or 30% capacity required?

Ms Fiona Brady

It is a balance. We need new drivers to come into the industry. The age profile is getting higher, so drivers will need to come in to take their place. A combination is needed. I will make up a figure. There is no point in adding 10,000 extra drivers to cover one pinch point. We need a balance of the whole public transport system, with data to see where pinch points are and how we can direct people to work.

Ms Brady is basically saying that if opening hours could be staggered, that would remove much of the pressure?

Ms Fiona Brady

It would absolutely help.

The witnesses can see the data coming in. I can see the four items. The greater quality of market data and supply problems at peak times are fine. Taxi drivers are leading the way on embracing electric vehicles and future-proofing. The fourth item is changes to encourage new entrants into the industry. Will the witnesses identify what they should be?

Mr. Niall Carson

The Chair referred earlier to the need to have wheelchair-accessible vehicles on the road and the transfer of licences. We need to make the industry more accessible. Regarding electric vehicles, anybody who has had the terror of filling a vehicle with fuel recently would know that it is a costly enterprise. It is hitting drivers who are on the road five to eight times more than private car owners. That is why the push for electric vehicles is more important.

If there are 10,000 drivers, for argument's sake, and 800 have electric cars, but they are doing 10% of the journeys, will Mr. Carson quantify that? That is unusual. Electric cars usually operate in a city or town. Is it measured based on the distance they cover or the number of trips they make?

Mr. Niall Carson

That is the number of trips they make. While this sounds like a convenient statistic, more than 1 million rides in battery electric vehicles have been booked through the app over the last year. We have heard anecdotal evidence of an EV driver picking a passenger up in Dublin and dropping them off in Cork, with no problem and no need for a stop. There is a charging station in Cork that drivers can avail of. We are seeing an uptick in the number across the country. There is a high cost to it.

The witnesses are getting no negative feedback from taxi drivers about electric cars.

Mr. Niall Carson

No.

Ms Fiona Brady

Absolutely not. It is a game-changer for many people with regard to their own earnings and how long they need to work for.

The vast majority of drivers we work with have home chargers as well and charging overnight means they are set for a full day.

They are very knowledgeable. I always ask and I find their knowledge of ecars is second to none. It is excellent.

Ms Fiona Brady

It is a great example for the public who see these EVs and maybe get to travel in them. It is a great advertisement for EV adoption.

Mr. Niall Carson

I would add two points. The first is the question of supports for drivers getting finance, and we arrange a partnership with a financing organisation to help to support drivers so they have access to that. The second issue is that the grant system gets paused as it receives a surplus of demands. We would be ambitious, as would the Government, to electrify the taxi fleet. At the European level, we could be a standard bearer and there is a real opportunity for us to do that with the grant. I would see it as more of a short-term investment but if we were able to extend it or keep it open as long as possible, it would certainly make it easier for drivers to access that. It would certainly speed up the process of getting the vehicles on the road, albeit with the supply challenges.

There are a lot more taxi drivers applying for EV cars than are coming on stream at the moment and, in some cases, they are waiting six to nine months for cars.

Ms Fiona Brady

They are the right people to be driving them because the taxi fleet is such a utilised vehicle. Private cars spend about 96% of the time idle on driveways whereas, if we have a fleet that is out there working, let us make it electric and less harmful to the environment.

There are two issues. The witnesses have spoken about the grant from the point of view of getting charging units in the house. I suppose FreeNow is looking to facilitate that because everyone it can put on the road in that sort of relationship is a new customer.

Mr. Niall Carson

Yes.

Obviously, if FreeNow can get them into electric vehicles, then it is more sustainable as a business model and they are more likely to stay in the game, for want of a better term, particularly as fuel prices are where they are. We understand all of the other wins that come with EVs. Can the witnesses give me a breakdown of where FreeNow has customers throughout the State?

Mr. Niall Carson

I mentioned the statistic earlier that we have completed jobs in 26 counties in the last week. There are two or three counties where we do not have drivers offering a service but those counties still receive people being dropped off from other counties. It is all across the country and be it Louth or Limerick, Cork or Carlow, we have coverage in all of those places. What we would say to all drivers is that it is absolutely free to sign up, although I do not want to make it a commercial pitch.

Mr. Niall Carson

The situation is that they only pay a commission on the work they do. Wheelchair-accessible vehicles do not pay any commission on those wheelchair journeys, which is one of the things we want to do to really make sure we can resource that area effectively. Across the country, we have a number of drivers signing up but it is the availability of drivers within the industry that is the challenge.

I accept that and it is the reason we are here in the first place. FreeNow has a number of drivers in County Louth, including in Dundalk.

Mr. Niall Carson

Yes, in Dundalk and in Drogheda.

I have seen them. I will be honest and say that I initially asked “What is that? Is that an advertisement for Now TV or something?”, but that says more about me than it does about FreeNow.

Ms Fiona Brady

The Deputy remembered it all the same.

Mr. Niall Carson

We are on our third name, so we are not doing too badly.

What has been stated about the information is a given. Obviously, if we have that sort of detail, we can put planning in place and all the rest of it. Reference was made to cross-industry relationships. Are other companies doing something similar?

Ms Fiona Brady

If we have a central source of data, it would be easier to look at this. One thing that is unique about the taxi industry, compared with other public service vehicles, is that for Dublin Bus, Luas or Irish Rail, there is real-time information and we know exactly what is happening and how many people are on a vehicle at any given time. This is something we do not have for taxis. We have part of that knowledge for the drivers who work with us, all anonymised, and it allows us to see where the hot spots are and where the gaps or upcoming gaps might be. If there was a collaborative database, it would be very helpful for all of the cities and the entire country in terms of seeing where there is an opportunity to improve supply.

That makes complete sense from a planning point of view. How many companies like FreeNow are in operation? I assume FreeNow is not in operation in the North.

Mr. Niall Carson

No, we are not. Within the taxi industry, the companies that have been around longer than us would have app versions for the drivers. I do not know of anywhere in the country where people would get into a taxi with an old radio, so to speak.

It is very few. All of them have something but I never bothered to check what they were using at that point in time - I just heard the ping.

Mr. Niall Carson

One piece on the technology link-up is about technology linking up to all public transport. We have heard that taxis are part of the public transport network. Within the app, we now have the ebikes that are available in the Fingal area, but it is about embracing what is now called mass mobility as a service and, through one app or a number of apps, offering a range of services for transport. We have found in other European locations that the use of bike share schemes, ebike share schemes and scooters, which are not legal here at the moment, actually leads to further use of public transport, including taxis, and complements the public transport sector. I know it is not for discussion today but it is something to consider.

Long term, from a planning point of view, everything would be in the database and that includes all the information that is readily available in regard to buses, rail and so on. In regard to the FreeNow app, Mr. Carson is also saying that FreeNow would have no difficulty in offering all services, to a degree. That is a better scaling up of what we sometimes get on Google, which offers three or four alternatives.

Ms Fiona Brady

This is already live across Europe. In many countries, there is already access to car share, bikes and scooters, which Mr. Carson mentioned, and soon, hopefully, public transport as well.

A fair point was made in regard to the geography-based knowledge for the test. We live in a world where we would not want people to be, as I can be sometimes, utterly reliant on Google Maps, which can lead to some very strange places and roads that people end up down. We would need some element of testing in that regard and there will always be periods where technology is not necessarily available, with the best will in the world. However, I still think it is a fair consideration, even if it was just a case of getting somebody started. We are looking at the means of making it as easy as possible for new entrants to enter. How many new entrants has FreeNow had in the last while or how many drivers have come on board with it?

Mr. Niall Carson

Through our training programme, we have brought on over 2,000 drivers over the last number of years, and that included the dip we would have seen when the test centres were closed. On top of that, during Covid we signed up a number of drivers who would not have worked with us previously because the attractiveness of our on-demand, pay-as-you-go feature certainly made sense to them. That was for drivers who continued to work but we saw a lot of drivers not working during Covid, as the committee will be aware. For us, the rate of sign-up is not commensurate with the 10% drop in the driver base that we have seen throughout Ireland since 2019. The driver base has dropped 10% since 2019 - since Covid - and 10% of drivers have not returned. Although we do see drivers coming online all of the time, we see drivers retiring or not being able to work for a number of reasons. It is challenging. It is a question of getting more drivers through the test and, as the Deputy said, potentially easing some of the geographical knowledge section would be helpful.

Free Now is looking for changes but alongside that, it is also facilitating people with the tests. It has its own training programme. Regarding that, Free Now probably has it straight regarding the obstacles that exist. We heard what the NTA told us. Taxi drivers outlined the position explicitly regarding the issues that exist for anyone considering entering the profession, particularly young people. Could the witnesses give me the top three in that regard?

Mr. Niall Carson

The issues around geography constitute a key part. Not to lessen the areas around what is expected of a driver, that part of the test should remain. It is important that we still go through the various tests and verification and vetting of all drivers. If more attention was paid to that process when they pass the test, it would help speed things up. Access to vehicles is another issue. Quite a large capital investment is involved in becoming a driver. There are not a lot of options for drivers when they join the industry. They can rent or buy a wheelchair-accessible vehicle or find a driver who is willing to allow them use of his or her plate but that comes with a lot of complications. We are supportive of anything that improves supply. We do not want to stand in the way of existing drivers or potential new drivers. Those would be the three issues.

Earlier, the witnesses spoke about difficulties with the electric SPSV grant and almost voiced what the taxi drivers said, which the NTA may have underplayed to some degree. Issues include delays and the fact that someone switching to an EV is waiting for the car to come along, has difficulties concerning when his or her licence is going to run out and faces the problem of scrappage. The witnesses will have seen that. They also said Free Now made direct contact and has basically facilitated finance.

Ms Fiona Brady

We spoke with Microfinance Ireland to negotiate a rate for drivers.

That was obviously on the basis that this was a major obstacle to people.

Ms Fiona Brady

It was. People who had come through the pandemic would not have been able to demonstrate earnings. It was in conjunction with the EV grant, so basically they knew they were going to be good for up €20,000 of it.

They were never going to get it when they needed it.

Ms Fiona Brady

We ran a series of webinars on it and looked at all the barriers to drivers around range anxiety, vehicle type and finance. We would have engaged with industry experts and compiled all that information for drivers. One thing that is probably missing from the picture is the fact that when we look at both ends of the funnel, new entrants and drivers who are probably a bit longer in the game and are-----

-----looking to switch.

Ms Fiona Brady

Exactly. The new entrants do not really have the opportunity to change to an EV. You would like to see someone starting his or her career in an EV so he or she is starting out the right way. If he or she is going to invest, he or she will be in it for the long game and you do not want to put an additional financial burden on him or her so if he or she can have lower running costs, etc., ideally, it would be great if he or she could get into an EV.

That makes complete sense. Free Now spoke to Microfinance Ireland. How is it then able to facilitate a driver?

Ms Fiona Brady

A rate was agreed with Microfinance Ireland. Ultimately, we were able to put drivers in touch. We gave them the information about getting in touch with Microfinance Ireland. They had a live webinar they could watch and ask questions. In conjunction with their application for the EV grant, they could get the additional finance from-----

Was that for the two cohorts - the brand new drivers and those who were switching?

Ms Fiona Brady

No, because the grant is really only available for drivers whose cars were within three years of-----

And the finance deal is really around the EV grant.

Ms Fiona Brady

It was.

It was not anything beyond that as regards initial outlays.

Ms Fiona Brady

No.

That reinforces the point made earlier that it is incredibly difficult to start a taxi service in an EV unless you have a significant amount of finance available.

Ms Fiona Brady

Yes.

Mr. Niall Carson

It concerns welcoming new entrants to the market and facilitating drivers to manage their costs better. To repeat, this is not just a problem in Dublin. Regarding levels of supply across the country be it in Louth, Limerick, Cork or Carlow, we need to increase them. There has been recent coverage in the media about the services drivers provide to the HSE and the Department of Health. It is an important area that we need to continue to resource because drivers play such an important role in keeping the country moving be it from a business, tourism or personal use point of view.

It takes in hospitals, education and runs to shopping centres for certain people. On some level, we do not need some of these solutions because taxis provide them and nobody has to think about it. The society in which we live is a fairly major issue in every aspect of the world involving such things as safety and danger where drugs meet violence and antisocial behaviour. Anecdotally, you will heard of a considerable number of taxi drivers who will say that nothing good happens after midnight. I imagine the witnesses hear that a significant number of people, which may have increased over the past number of years, even when they are remaining in work, are removing themselves from night-time work. I understand that this does not always suit people, but this is a slightly different situation. I am even aware of physical taxi ranks that did not reopen after Covid and the reason was not that there was nobody to man them, rather it was the safety aspect of it.

Ms Fiona Brady

One of the things we noticed was working patterns changing for individuals during Covid. There was a point when closing time was maybe 8 p.m., and then it was extended to 11 p.m. Many people got used to a different work-life balance-----

Ms Fiona Brady

Exactly, and nearly working a nine-to-five day. They are quite happy with that and do not necessarily want to return to those peak times. One thing we have seen is a change in working patterns.

That is a given and makes complete sense. So Free Now has not come across anything that would lead it to believe that fear regarding drivers' safety has become a problem.

Mr. Niall Carson

There is a combination of issues regarding why drivers do not want to work in the evenings. I certainly think the NTA is putting incentives in place, as we would, to work there. What we would say about any of those attacks is that there are a few things we can do with drivers to mitigate them. Where drivers have found work with us, they are more likely to help An Garda Síochána. We support An Garda Síochána with prosecutions off the back of anything that happens with us because we possess a lot of data around users and contact information so under the relevant Acts and within the law, we would work very closely with An Garda Síochána to ensure there are convictions involving any passengers acting in an untoward fashion towards drivers.

That is very worthwhile work. The taxi drivers who appeared before this committee last week stated clearly that they do not regard the Taxi Advisory Committee as fit for purpose from their perspective. I will ask the witnesses whether they are willing to give their views on the matter. The other thing the taxi drivers said was that there needs to be better contact between taxi drivers and An Garda Síochána. The witnesses are saying that on some level they have that.

Mr. Niall Carson

We have a good relationship with An Garda Síochána. We have to work within the rigours of the law but we certainly support-----

I imagine An Garda Síochána would say the same thing.

Mr. Niall Carson

It is difficult for An Garda Síochána but we support and really encourage it to really pursue convictions because too many people might be getting away with these things and more minor offences. We would certainly like to see more on that front to make our driver base feel safer. Again, An Garda Síochána has an unenviable job to do.

I suppose on some level, Free Now has built up its relationship with An Garda Síochána, which never does any harm regarding ensuring that all the information is with An Garda Síochána, prosecutions can take place and if there is any back up.

Ms Fiona Brady

This possibly comes back to staggering closing times. If there are antisocial incidents, again, it would be less-----

If everybody lands on the streets at the same time and given all the stuff they may have taken over the previous couple of hours, it is quite understandable how bad things happen - not that I am condoning any of it. I seem to have taken this meeting over but I have a tendency to do that from time to time. The witnesses might not want to give a view on the Taxi Advisory Committee.

Ms Fiona Brady

I sit on the Taxi Advisory Committee - what a surprise. I was appointed by the Minister for Transport. I am appointed as a member who has a special interest or expertise. I have nearly 20 years experience in transport, starting out my career in Dublin Bus to where I am in Free Now. I will make my contribution using the best of my experience and the best of the data I can share from Free Now, as a company. I hope that my contribution to the committee is productive.

If the Deputy is asking me if the Taxi Advisory Committee can be improved, any committee would say there is always room for improvement.

That was the best political answer that was given here today. I thank Ms Brady.

I thank Free Now for coming in because we want to do a body of work around the taxi industry. Certainly, since we have started holding our hearings, we have seen movement on a range of areas. We need a viable taxi industry and Free Now is obviously a component in that in terms of operating efficiently and ensuring taxi drivers can be most efficient in terms of use of their time and making a living. I thank Mr. Carson and Ms Brady for assisting the committee today in this important matter.

The next meeting of the joint committee will be a private session on MS Teams on Tuesday, 4 October, at 4 p.m.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.31 p.m. sine die.
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