Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Joint Committee on Transport and Communications díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 8 Nov 2022

Provision of Bus Services in Dublin: Discussion

The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss the provision of bus services in the Dublin area. We are joined by representatives from the National Transport Authority, NTA, Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead Ireland. I welcome them and thank them for agreeing to appear before the committee. This as an important session. It involves significant public information. It affects not just Dublin, but is nationwide. We are on a trajectory of a roll-out of public transport, particularly in the areas of buses. We look forward to constructive engagement where we get to the root of the issues causing delays at the moment and look at solutions being put forward to remedy those issues quickly. It is that simple. If we want to encourage people to use public transport - buses fall under that - they must have a service they can rely on for work, social activities, appointments and so on. I am pleased to welcome on behalf of the committee, from the NTA, Ms Anne Graham, CEO and Mr. Tim Gaston, director of public transport services; from Dublin Bus, Ms Andrea Keane, acting chief executive and company secretary, and Mr. Ciarán Rogan, chief customer officer; and from Go-Ahead Ireland, Mr. Andrew Edwards, managing director, and Mr. James Caffrey, finance director. You are all welcome.

With regard to privilege, witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to any identified person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. Reluctantly, I will not permit a member to participate if they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members participating via MS Teams to confirm that they are on the grounds of Leinster House campus prior to making a contribution.

If attending in the committee room, members are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19. I also welcome the many visitors in the Public Gallery.

I invite the witnesses to make their opening statements. Ms Graham, on behalf of the NTA, is first.

Ms Anne Graham

I thank the Chair and members of the committee for the invitation to attend. I understand that the committee wishes to focus on the provision of bus services in Dublin. To assist me in dealing with the subsequent questions, I am joined by Mr. Tim Gaston, director of public transport services with the authority.

The remit of the National Transport Authority is to regulate and develop the provision of integrated public transport services - bus, rail, light rail and taxi - by public and private operators in the State, to secure the development and implementation of an integrated transport system within the greater Dublin area, and to contribute to the effective integration of transport and land-use planning across the State.

The authority is responsible for the provision of an integrated, accessible public transport system. BusConnects and Connecting Ireland are key public transport programmes where the authority, in association with transport operators and local authorities, have planned networks to allow the continued economic and social development of our cities, towns and rural areas. The services are planned to allow residents and visitors the choice of sustainable, low-carbon emission transport for some or all of their journeys. The authority also provides services if a public service obligation exists following the withdrawal of a commercial licensed service if the funding to do so is available.

BusConnects Dublin is a key project that the NTA is delivering, which aims to overhaul the current bus system in the Dublin region by: completely redesigning the network of bus routes to provide a more efficient network and connecting more places and carrying more passengers; building a network of new bus corridors on the busiest bus routes to make bus journeys faster, predictable and reliable; developing a state-of-the-art ticketing system using credit and debit cards or mobile phones to link with payment accounts and making payment much more convenient; implementing a cashless payment system to speed up passenger boarding times; revamping the fare system to provide a simpler fare structure, allowing seamless movement between different transport services without financial penalty; providing a number of supporting park-and-ride facilities; rolling out new bus stops with better signage and information and increasing the provision of additional bus shelters; and transitioning to a new bus fleet using low emission vehicle technologies.

BusConnects Dublin is a programme of integrated actions which, together, is delivering a bus system that will enable more people to travel by bus than ever before, and allow bus commuting to become a viable and attractive choice for employees, students, shoppers and visitors. The individual projects that make up BusConnects Dublin are at different stages of delivery. The NTA has implemented four of the 11 phases of the new BusConnects Dublin network in partnership with Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead. The increased frequency and spine network have resulted in growth in passenger journeys along those spines: 22% on the H-spine and 11% on the C-spine, and we continue to see a very good response to improved frequency of services wherever they are introduced.

Six of the 12 core bus corridor projects have been lodged with An Bord Pleanála and all will be lodged by the first quarter of 2023. Some 228 diesel-electric hybrid buses are now operating across Dublin, reducing carbon emissions, and more than 100 fully electric double-deck buses and 34 single-deck electric buses will be operating across the city next year. The procurement of an account-based ticketing system to support new cashless payment forms is well under way and new bus stops and shelters with improved information at a stop level are being delivered across the city. The Transport for Ireland, TFI, 90-minute fare was introduced last year and following the Government initiative to reduce fares as a cost-of-living measure, this fare is now offered at €2 for adults, €1 for students and young adults, and 65 cent for children. There is no doubt that this reduction has contributed to the very quick recovery in passenger numbers on Dublin's bus services in the past six months. The immediate response brought passenger numbers to within 12% of 2019 passenger journeys in that period compared to the previous period where passenger numbers were 25% less than the equivalent 2019 passenger numbers. The authority had predicted that passenger levels would be at about 85% of pre-Covid by year end. However, we are happy to report that as a result of the improvements in services as part of BusConnects, the significant fare reductions, as well as the general recovery in the economy, passenger numbers on Dublin's bus services are now back at 2019 levels, which was our highest year ever, with numbers exceeding pre-Covid levels at weekends and in the evenings.

The authority is responsible for securing the provision of public bus services through two specified mechanisms: public service contracts with operators such as Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead, where services would not otherwise be provided on a commercial basis, and the licensing of public bus services, which are operated on a commercial basis.

Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead Ireland are contracted by the authority to deliver bus services in Dublin. The NTA contracts with Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead Ireland are available on the NTA website. Along with a number of customer service metrics, the key performance metrics for both operators are: lost kilometres, which is a measure of the contracted service kilometres that were not operated; and punctuality, which is measured for each stop along the route and is measured differently for low frequency routes compared with high frequency routes.

Low frequency bus routes are defined as services that operate less than five times per hour on a weekday, outside of peak periods. A departure from a bus stop is classified as on time if the bus departs not more than one minute early or not more than five minutes and 59 seconds late, when compared with the scheduled departure time. High frequency bus routes are defined as services which operate at a frequency of every 12 minutes or greater on a weekday, outside of the peak periods. On this basis, the NTA measures the regularity of high frequency routes using a metric called excess wait time. This metric provides a measure of the average time a passenger must wait for the next high frequency bus, in excess of the wait time which would be expected as per the schedule for that route. The NTA meets operators on a regular basis to review performance. The reports on transport operator performances are regularly published on our website and an annual performance report is produced, the latest being available for 2021.

It has to be recognised that both Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead Ireland continued to deliver services all the way through the Covid pandemic and I will take the opportunity again to record the deep appreciation of the NTA for the dedication of front-line public transport staff in delivering services for essential workers through the pandemic. In the early part of the pandemic the authority reduced operated kilometres across the services in Dublin in a planned way, recognising the potential for staff absences due to Covid and that fewer people were travelling. Once the first wave of the pandemic was over, services returned to the normal frequency, albeit at reduced capacity per service, in accordance with Government Covid advice. However, sudden absences due to Covid infection reflecting the level of Covid in the community impacted service provision. Managing services at this time was difficult for operators as it was hard to predict how many drivers would be available for a particular shift and service cancellations were inevitable.

As the country came out of the last wave of Covid in the spring this year, operators were faced with an added difficulty of recruiting and retaining drivers in their companies at a time of almost full employment in the country. This has resulted in a higher than normal cancellation of services, which has impacted greatly on public transport customers as services have been cancelled at short notice. I would like to apologise to those customers as the service has not been at the standard that we would all like to provide. Both operators and the NTA have taken a number of steps to seek to address the current critical shortage of drivers including: running recruitment campaigns; meeting the Road Safety Authority to secure improved throughput of driver testing; reducing some service frequency; delaying the introduction of phases of the BusConnects network redesign; and reassigning resources to better match the demand post-Covid. In the meantime, operators have faced lost kilometre deductions from their contractual payments. Thanks to the efforts of both operators, driver recruitment has increased, we are seeing a much improved service delivery and the level of cancellations has significantly reduced. It is expected that both operators will be close to meeting their contractual targets of lost kilometres in this current period.

The impact of congestion on punctuality has intensified in recent weeks and this can result in curtailments or cancellations of services as services can be running so late. On the busiest bus routes, bus lanes are only in place for less than one third of the corridor. This means that for most of the journey, buses are competing for space with general traffic. The only solution to this is to reduce the number of cars on the road and move as quickly as the planning process allows to deliver the core bus projects as part of BusConnects.

There have been a number of complaints relating to the accuracy of the real-time passenger information, RTPI. The RTPI provided on signs and apps is driven by the automatic vehicle location, AVL, systems on the buses. The AVL systems are constantly monitoring the bus’s progress along its route and use prediction algorithms to look at scheduled timings for the buses and the actual position of the buses on their routes and generates a prediction of when they will arrive at each stop. The inaccuracy of the data on the on-street displays in recent months was as a result of a higher than normal cancellation of services due to lack of drivers as well as a technical fault. A number of fixes have been applied by the AVL and RTPI contractors in recent weeks. It is expected that the cancellation of services due to drivers not being available will also reduce the inaccuracies; that is the ghost buses. Initial surveys have shown a significant improvement in the accuracy of the RTPI in recent weeks. That concludes my introductory statement. I trust that we can answer any queries that arise.

Ms Andrea Keane

I thank the committee for the invitation to appear before it. I am joined by Mr. Ciarán Rogan, our chief customer officer. Dublin Bus operates a large network of services for our customers under a direct award contact with the NTA. The customer is at the heart of everything we do in Dublin Bus. We know that we are a part of their daily lives and they are part of ours. We are always quick to acknowledge and apologise to our customers and all those impacted when the standards delivered are below the levels expected by our customers and I want to apologise to those customers directly impacted today.

I also want to assure the committee that Dublin Bus has been working and is continuing to work to deliver improved service levels for all customers. We deliver for our customers every day and have worked with him through challenging times, events such as severe weather and Covid, and we know we would overcome the current challenges as we have overcome all others - through the application of our expertise, our experience, our knowledge of the transport industry and our constant commitment to doing the right thing for the city and our customers.

We hold ourselves to high standards, which are independently validated through stringent performance metrics, as set out in the direct award contract. In October, our 3,800-strong team returned to carrying 400,000 customers a day on weekdays and we are currently operating over 7,000 trips each day. This is a return to pre-Covid levels of customer demand.

This is a very exciting time for public transport with significant investment in services for all customers. We have, in conjunction with the NTA, successfully implemented four phases of the BusConnects network redesign project in the last year. This has included the introduction of new 24-hour routes and a significant increase in kilometres operated. We have done all this while facing the most difficult of headwinds, a once-in-a-generation pandemic and the operational challenges posed by a highly competitive labour market. We have also had issues with real-time passenger information for customers. This system plays a huge role in helping people plan their journeys and therefore causes significant problems when it is not performing as it should. My opening statement today will address the service levels and driver recruitment, real-time passenger information and measures to improve the customer experience.

The vast majority of Dublin Bus services operate on time and on schedule. In the first six months of this year, we operated 97% of all services, which is just 1% off our target. More recently, this has reduced to 95% of services, which is 3% off target. The pace of expansion of the network is outstripping the pace of recruitment of new staff, particularly in our driver grade. Dublin Bus was planning for network expansion and recruitment and we funded a specific campaign to recruit staff alongside the NTA general transport-wide campaign. We have recruited almost 290 new drivers this year alone, and we are constantly looking at new and innovative ways to increase our driver and maintenance staff numbers. However, even with this number of new drivers, we are not keeping pace with the rate of network expansion and very much regret the impact this is having on customers. All of our employees are working very hard to minimise the impact of these challenges.

Driving a bus is a very responsible job. It is a safety-critical role and Dublin Bus has always viewed the safety of our customers as our top priority. The acceptance rate for drivers from application to employment is consistent with previous trends. I reassure the committee that the company does not compromise the high standards needed to provide a safe and professional service, while also recruiting at a rate far in excess of previous years. Dublin Bus continues to welcome new drivers into the company each month once they have completed the professional training at our training school and we are actively managing the current challenges through a combination of measures that we have put in place.

On the RTPI, we fully understand our customers rely on this to plan their journeys. The accuracy of the system, which is surveyed regularly by the NTA, had previously been very high but reliability has unfortunately deteriorated in recent months.

We are very aware that any prolonged inaccuracies with the RTPI system dilutes the confidence our customers have in these systems. As the NTA noted, there are three main systems: the on-street signs, the Dublin Bus app and the Transport for Ireland app. Each bus has an automatic vehicle location system that tracks its progress along the route. This is the key device sending information to the key Dublin Bus app and NTA systems. Unfortunately, all of these systems have had software problems in recent months, which both Dublin Bus and the NTA have been working very hard to fix. We introduced a series of software changes, the latest in September, which corrected several issues and the NTA introduced a software change on 25 October. It is to be hoped that this has corrected its back-office system. We have also conducted a number of additional surveys and checks on our systems in addition to the independent NTA surveys. While the indications are that the recent software changes have successfully corrected the errors, we will continue to monitor these systems to make sure they are once again providing correct information for customers.

The technical issues with the RTPI system have unfortunately coincided with driver recruitment challenges which have resulted in us cancelling more services than usual. These cancelled trips should be removed from the real-time information system in a timely manner but, in some cases, this was not happening. This problem was identified by our surveys and analysis and a new process was put in place to manage and address it.

It may also be worth noting that the NTA is currently procuring a new single automatic vehicle location, AVL, system to be used by all bus operators. This will be a new system with technology that is more up to date. The NTA has advised Dublin Bus that a contract for this new system will be awarded in 2023. A roll-out plan will be produced at that point. In addition, the Dublin Bus app is now approaching the end of its life. The NTA's strategy is for customers to use one app, the Transport for Ireland app. Dublin Bus will shortly be introducing a new and improved website. As part of this new website, we will be migrating customers who currently use the Dublin Bus app to the Transport for Ireland app. A full communications plan for customers will be provided as part of this migration process.

Dublin Bus is part of our customers' daily lives and they rely on our services to take them where they need to go. While the vast majority of our services continue to operate to timetable, we are very aware that any reduction in service levels has an impact on our customers. We are currently working to ensure both service levels and real-time information are as accurate as possible and to provide communications with our customers and more timely updates on all service-related issues.

Dublin Bus has a long history of serving the people who live in, work in and visit Dublin. We fully appreciate the importance of a reliable bus service and the provision of accurate information. We know that what some customers have experienced recently falls short of the service they have come to expect from Dublin Bus. These recent challenges jar with our track record of providing a positive customer experience for the 400,000 people who use our services every day. The work to improve customer information and the accuracy of real-time information is critical. The company will continue to monitor these systems to ensure that accuracy levels are maintained and confidence in these systems is restored.

Our employee recruitment campaign is continuing at pace and we continue to welcome new drivers to the company each month. However, it will take some time before driver numbers are restored to the level required to meet the needs of our current and expanding network of services. We are confident that the very significant programme of work being carried out will restore our customer experience to the standards our customers expect and deserve. As I noted, we deliver for our customers every day. That is embedded in our culture and is part of the Dublin Bus way of life. I speak for all our employees when I say that we have a proud history of serving the people of Dublin. I cannot deny that we are facing challenges, particularly with regard to the timing of driver recruitment, but we are meeting them as we have met and overcome all previous challenges for our customers.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

I am the managing director of Go-Ahead Ireland and I thank the committee for inviting my colleague, Mr. James Caffrey, and me to today's session.

Go-Ahead Ireland is contracted by the National Transport Authority to operate 30 routes in total: 25 outer Dublin metropolitan area routes operating from our Ballymount depot, and five Dublin commuter routes operating from our Naas depot. Since we commenced operations in 2018, our team has grown to more than 650 people and as a local employer and service provider we are an active member of communities across Dublin and Leinster. This includes our partnerships with Dublin GAA, the Trinity Centre for People with Intellectual Disabilities, FamiliBase, AsIAm, and the National Council for the Blind, to name a selection.

We are a part of Ireland’s hugely ambitious effort to promote and provide public transport to help reduce emissions and tackle climate change. We are excited to be a part of this step change, challenges and all.

Given the importance of our role, along with our fellow providers in the NTA and Dublin Bus, we understand why we have been invited to meet the committee to discuss the provision of bus services in Dublin and the current issues that exist. We want to take this opportunity to say that we acknowledge there have been issues related to our services. We apologise to customers who have been negatively affected. It is absolutely accurate to say that Go-Ahead’s services have suffered along with those of other operators over the past number of months. These issues have been caused by direct and indirect occurrences.

As with all areas of society and the economy, the past two years have been extremely challenging for the transport sector. As we recover from the pandemic and associated issues, we have been impacted by staff shortages. Our ongoing requirements for staff, and existing drivers returning to their original pre-pandemic industries, are important factors. While we have consistently run a proactive recruitment campaign since the beginning of the year, our efforts to get drivers on the road over the past several months were hampered by an unavoidable external backlog in acquiring essential paperwork for commercial drivers.

Furthermore, in September of this year, Go-Ahead Group suffered a cyber security incident which impacted operational ICT systems in the company’s bus businesses, including software used to schedule drivers and services. This came at a time of increasing service demand with schools and colleges returning, and increasing road traffic and challenging weather conditions, which were important day-to-day issues associated with that time period. All of these issues combined have had an impact on our services and, most importantly, on our customers.

As part of our ongoing activities to address the direct and indirect challenges that have impacted services, we have undertaken several actions. We have continued to recruit, increasing our efforts across all our operations, appointing a dedicated recruitment manager, and expanding the recruitment team. Due to these sustained efforts, we have received more than 750 applications in the past six months. Just under 150 new drivers have entered service in that period. In addition, we have more than 100 drivers awaiting essential paperwork who are ready to start once that paperwork has been processed in our training department.

We also currently have 90 drivers in our training school. Some of the previously mentioned paperwork backlog has been cleared with the assistance of the Road Safety Authority, which is now speeding up parts of our recruitment drive, and we continue to work closely with it on other items. We have also implemented programmes designed to improve and support our retention of staff, including incentive payments for drivers who stay with us until the end of March 2023. We offer all of our drivers a pension scheme, life insurance and free GP appointments. We also cover the costs for all necessary training, compliance and paperwork requirements. Furthermore, our systems have been restored to full capacity and we are continuing to undertake ongoing improvements to drive efficiencies and enhance performance across our operations.

Prior to 2020 and throughout the pandemic, it should be noted that Go-Ahead Ireland consistently met the service requirements under our agreed contractual obligations. We have in the past received incentive payments from the NTA for operating services to a high level. We fully acknowledge, however, that in recent months our services have been impacted, like many others in Ireland and across the world, and that this has had significant consequences for our customers. We understand that those consequences mean real personal inconvenience.

We are, however, absolutely committed to addressing these issues, as illustrated by the work we have undertaken, and are working to attain those success levels again. We understand that there is a need to rebuild trust in our services and we are determined to do that. Our work to drive improvements is ongoing and will continue.

Over the past month, we have already seen a marked improvement in performance on most of our routes. Overall complaints have dropped and a level of reliability has improved. With the new drivers coming on stream and overall improvements combined, we anticipate that we will be running at full capacity across our services in the next four to six weeks based on our current projections. This is taking into account internal and external factors. Over the past few months some members have visited our depot to see first-hand the work of our teams. I would welcome anyone who wishes to engage with us further to do the same. Again, I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to speak to the committee today. I am happy to take any observations or questions that members may have.

I thank Mr. Edwards. There is huge interest in this matter from the members and the public. There are up to 20 members who wish to contribute. I normally do not do it, but I will set out how the system works. The system agreed by the committee is that members present go first, then those substituting for members go next. Thereafter, for any other Member of either House seeking to contribute, we will go in the order in which they have corresponded with the committee to be included. I want to get everyone in. I ask that contributors do not repeat questions. I very rarely ask that, but this is an information session for the public. It is about the public who are using the bus services as much as anyone else. We have a duty to extract the information and find the solutions.

I have looked at the order and the time. I am proposing that members and substitute members have eight minutes to ask questions. People will be aware of the procedure. I will give speakers six minutes, then they will see the clock running down for two minutes which will give them time to finish their questioning. I ask contributors to be conscious that the witnesses have to answer within that timeframe. I hope to give all other speakers five minutes. That will only happen if contributors stick to the time allocation. I have asked the secretariat to allow us to run ten minutes over time, which will bring us up to 2.10 p.m. I am pushing it. People will be aware that I try to be liberal, but because there are so many members and because this issue is of significant public interest, I ask contributors to ask pinpoint questions. We need answers and solutions. I want to be fair. First on the rota of members present is Deputy O'Connor, who has eight minutes.

I welcome all participants to today's meeting. It is very timely that we are having this discussion. My first question is for representatives of Dublin Bus. Demand allocation is quite problematic not just in Dublin, but nationally. I ask the witnesses to give the committee an indication as to how Dublin Bus manages that, particularly during peak times. Perhaps Ms Keane can provide us with an understanding of it.

Ms Andrea Keane

The Deputy is correct in saying that demand allocation is a difficult issue at the moment. What we are looking at is changing our patterns post-Covid both in terms of our overall passenger numbers and in the times they are actually travelling. For example, we are seeing an increase in weekend travelling and in October we were back to our pre-Covid levels during the week, in comparison with 2019. Part of that is the result of the BusConnects expansion services, which have increased frequency and service delivery at weekends.

Just to clarify the question, how are decisions made around where to put buses at peak times?

Ms Andrea Keane

It is important to say first of all that for the first six months of this year, we were delivering 97% of all services. All services were operating-----

I will ask the question again. When it comes to making the decision of where the buses are put during peak hours, how is it made?

Ms Andrea Keane

I am trying to answer the question. If we have a difficulty at the moment, we prioritise the low frequency services. If there is a route that has a frequency every 30 minutes, we make sure that we deliver that service.

If there is a route that has a ten-minute frequency, we may, because of current shortages, have to alter the frequency on it.

Excellent. So there is a system in place.

Ms Andrea Keane

Yes.

Is the decision made by Dublin Bus?

Ms Andrea Keane

Yes. This is done by our controllers. They literally look at all measures in order to deliver our services.

Excellent. Is the decision relating to PSO services devolved to the NTA or Bus Éireann?

Ms Anne Graham

No, these are operational. This is an operational decision that is made on the day. It is not possible for the NTA to be involved in those decisions.

It is Bus Éireann.

Ms Anne Graham

Yes. Bus Éireann would make those operational decisions as well. We set the timetable, frequency and the service level across the service. That is what is in the contract. On day-to-day operations, the operators try to meet those requirements in the contract.

Does Bus Éireann have to apply to the NTA for additional funding to provide an additional bus for a PSO route?

Ms Anne Graham

They would have to, yes.

There are a number of issues with PSO routes. It would not be appropriate for me to discuss them in detail today. I will, however, correspond with the NTA in respect of them, particularly those outside the greater Dublin area.

My next question is for both delegations. I am someone who lives down the country yet travels to Dublin to do my work and job, which is a story that is very familiar to hundreds of thousands of Irish people, whether on a weekly or monthly basis. The options are quite limited, especially for anyone using the N7, to abandon one's car before hitting the M50 and then travelling on into Dublin city. This explains why many of the orbital road routes to the city are so choked up. I would love to see a far greater rolling out of public transport services. Before I hear a list of all of the existing services, I must state that we all know them. They are great, but there is much scope for improvement. I say that in the context of the goal of trying to reduce the number of cars on the roads in Dublin, which would automatically improve capacity for bus services. What is beyond the M50 at the moment is not good enough. Improvements must be made. What are the views of the witnesses?

Ms Anne Graham

We have a park-and-ride strategy for the greater Dublin area. We are beginning to make plans for the delivery of park-and-ride sites. We are focusing first of all on the N11-M11 route. We have some sites identified that we would hope to move forward with planning applications. We have no site identified along the M7-N7 yet. The Red Cow roundabout is along the N7. There is a facility to park near the roundabout and use the Luas red line service to travel into Dublin. Supporting park-and-ride facilities is a key part of the delivery of transport services, but we need to be able to assure customers that the journey time from the park-and-ride facility to their destinations in the city centre is reasonable compared with that of completing the journey in a car. At the moment, we cannot guarantee that.

I am sorry to interrupt, but my time is very limited. I have spoken for five minutes and 20 seconds and have only eight minutes in total. We have a chicken-and-egg scenario because somebody must make decisions about where to allocate resources and what is done to provide services. I am not being parochial by mentioning the N7. I only cited it because I am familiar with the route. The N7 is one of the busiest access routes into Dublin because it is used by people from Limerick, Tipperary, Kilkenny, Carlow, Waterford and many other places. There is not really a well-marketed service there except for the Luas at present. There are a lot of capacity constraints with the Luas in the mornings. The service is great if one can use it. I am of the view that there is a demand to have something a little further out in the direction of Citywest where people could park their cars, if they are on short journeys from rural areas, and transition to a public transport service. This would remove thousands of cars from Dublin city centre. Such an initiative would be of great benefit.

Ms Anne Graham

We do not disagree with the Deputy. All I am saying is that in order to ensure that it is attractive for drivers to get out of their cars and use the public transport system, we must ensure that the journey time is reasonable and is actually shorter than that relating to a journey by car. At the moment, given the level of priority for buses as they come into the city via the national roads system and as they pass through the city centre, we cannot guarantee that those journey times are short enough to attract and encourage people. There is also the core bus corridors project, which is part of BusConnects. Those corridors will be in place once we get through the planning process.

They will certainly accommodate much shorter journey times. I refer also to the work we are doing with Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, to look at hard-shoulder running for buses and to ensure that we can get bus journey times down as much as possible.

I thank Ms Graham. I want to finish up with one very important question for Dublin Bus. Is Ms Keane concerned about the current method of security provision on bus services in the context of antisocial behaviour? Does she feel this could be improved upon by way of Garda operations? My Fianna Fáil colleagues are very much stressing the requirement for a Garda division to police public transport. What is Ms Keane's view on that? We have seen some really disturbing incidents on public transport recently that are of serious concern to the public. We want to get Dublin Bus's feedback on that.

Ms Andrea Keane

On Dublin Bus services, instances of antisocial behaviour, while always very distressing on an individual basis, are thankfully low in the context of our overall scope of operations. The company is involved and very active in a number of forums to make sure that we have measures in place to reduce the number of these incidents and to support our customers and employees when they happen. We are participating in a number of forums with colleagues on this committee and with the NTA. We have regular liaison with An Garda Síochána. We have a very good campaign within the local communities. We also have an outreach programme in schools.

The Deputy asked a direct question. In the limited time, does Ms Keane believe there is a need for a public transport police unit?

Ms Andrea Keane

We are not against a network of dedicated police unit, but we would have questions as to how that would operate. We have noted the recent comments by the Garda Síochána that it does not believe a separate unit is necessary at this point.

Dublin Bus has an open mind.

Ms Andrea Keane

Yes, Dublin Bus is quite-----

Just to clarify, it is whether Dublin Bus has concerns at the moment. It has a private security team that is providing a lot of the security services on public transport in Ireland. Does Ms Keane think that is sufficient? Is Dublin Bus concerned?

Ms Andrea Keane

As I said at the beginning, the instances of antisocial behaviour on Dublin Bus services are thankfully low at the moment. We have a number of measures in place to make sure that we are providing a good service----

Where they occur, the issue lies with the power of arrest. That is the concern which many people have.

That may be a point we can take up further. We will move on to Deputy Duncan Smith.

Our committee has had some high-profile meetings over the past two and a half years, particularly in respect of aviation, but we have never had the level of interest in an issue from the public or from other Members outside the committee that we have had in this meeting today. This goes to the heart of how important our bus services are to the daily experience of people in our city and surrounding areas. We are speaking mainly of Dublin today, and that is why I am speaking in those terms. In my party, our many councillors and local area representatives, such as Corina Johnston and Ian McGahon in Wicklow, have been raising these issues with me for many months now, as have many constituents. We all have our social media feeds. Every morning we have screen grabs of cancelled services from the RTPI. It is happening with increasing regularity. Many of the experiences of constituents have been distilled through grassroots organisations such as the Dublin Commuter Coalition, which is represented here today. When trying to measure poor service or a lack of service, which Dublin Bus, Go-Ahead and the NTA have admitted to and apologised for in their statements, the real litmus is what the penalty has been. My first question is for the NTA. What level of fines have been issued to Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead Ireland this year to date?

Ms Anne Graham

I will have to look up that figure. Can the Deputy ask another question and I will come back to that?

We do not have up-to-date figures. We would have figures that they would be above €1 million per organisation. Would Ms Graham attest to that at this point?

Ms Anne Graham

I am just going to get the figure if the Deputy does not mind.

The Deputy may ask another question if he likes. We will give him latitude to come back in.

My next question was going to follow on from that. I wanted to ask if the fines issued this year are comparable with any other year.

How much of an outlier has 2022 been and at what level are fines not enough? Is there anything above fines that-----

It would be interesting to hear from the two operators whether they have been fined.

Yes, I was going to ask Dublin Bus and Go-ahead Ireland about the penalties they have had to pay this year. Have they had to pay similar fines previously or has this year been one like no other, discounting the Covid years?

Ms Andrea Keane

I thank the Deputy. I am happy to answer from the Dublin Bus perspective. The first point I will make - and it is not that we are trying to debate the issue of the fines - but within Dublin Bus the way we always view penalties is that we examine them closely to understand the underlying cause. Why have we incurred this penalty? Have we let down the customer in some way? Then we look to rectify it. The issue at the moment is - the fines are substantial. They are higher than they were in the past - the primary reason we have incurred this penalty is that we are not in a position to deliver all of the services we have been contracted for. In some ways the issue, as we noted in our opening statement, is one of driver recruitment. I am confident that the company is proactive in that space. We have seen improvements this year and we will see more.

I thank Ms Keane. I ask Go-Ahead Ireland the same question as my time is running out.

Mr. James Caffrey

I will take that one. The year 2022 has been an outlier. Our fines totalled more than €1 million. Previous to that, in our three years operating each contract we had a net figure of €100,000, so it is an outlier. The fines are incredibly penal for us and the Deputy will see the steps we have taken to address that through our recruitment campaigns.

I suggest that Dublin Bus also give the figure for the fines and perhaps we will come back to get a total summary. I ask Ms Keane to give the same level of detail for Dublin Bus that Go-Ahead Ireland has given. What fines has Dublin Bus incurred this year relative to previous years?

Ms Andrea Keane

I do not have the exact amounts for each year with me. If Ms Graham has them I am happy to quote them but they are higher this year than the previous year.

They are higher.

Ms Anne Graham

The fines for quarter one and quarter two of this year for Dublin Bus were net €1.5 million.

What does net mean with regard to the €1.5 million?

Ms Anne Graham

There was an incentive. Dublin Bus also achieved an incentive because it exceeded performance.

What was its gross fine?

I am happy with the net figure.

Is the Deputy happy with the net figure?

Ms Anne Graham

The net figure was €1.5 million.

What was the figure for Go-Ahead Ireland?

Ms Anne Graham

For Go-Ahead Ireland for the two quarters it was €885,000. That is only for quarter one and quarter two.

It must be said that Dublin Bus has 130 odd routes while Go-Ahead Ireland has about 30. Those figures are net but the fine per route would be pretty high for Go-Ahead Ireland. All three organisations have mentioned driver recruitment. I want to ask Mr. Edwards about a number of other issues he mentioned. It was reported in the press today that anti-social behaviour is impacting on routes. It is not in his opening statement. It was reported in the Irish Independent today that anti-social behaviour is one of the reasons and he also mentioned changing weather conditions and matters like that impacting on routes. What is the balance between the underlying driver recruitment issues which have been well explained in the opening statements and other issues?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

In general a significant portion of our reliability has been driven in the past six months by the staff shortages. The general premise though is that there are other things that impact bus services. Anti-social behaviour is one issue. Traffic along the routes also has an impact where services then need to curtail the next journey because they are running so late. There is a wide range of reasons but a significant portion of reliability issues we have faced is down to the driver shortage.

My time is ticking down. In its opening statement Dublin Bus stated that the number of new drivers is not keeping pace with the rate of network expansion. Presumably the network expansion between the two providers and the NTA is the BusConnects system. What is the level of engagement? When the NTA says it is rolling out the next spine or the next part of the network and the bus companies say they are not ready because they do not have enough drivers, how does that work? It is obviously not working at the moment.

What is the level of engagement? The NTA says it is running out the next spine or whatever part of the network and operators say they are not ready and do not have enough drivers. How does that work because it is not working at the moment? We have an expansion that has been much heralded in the pipeline for a long time and, therefore, nobody can say BusConnects has been a surprise but the two providers of the service in Dublin say they cannot keep pace with the rate of network expansion. Could all three witnesses speak to that? Are they going too fast, are they too far behind and are they discussing this on a regular basis?

We will hear from the two operators first and then hear from Ms Graham.

Ms Andrea Keane

Dublin Bus engages regularly with the NTA regarding all aspects of BusConnects. As the Deputy will be aware, we have successfully introduced two phases in 2021. We were coming out of the Covid period. Phases 3 and 4 were introduced this year but the timelines differ from the original timeline. That was done in consultation with the NTA. It facilitated matters with regard to the driver recruitment challenges.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

I echo what my colleague from Dublin Bus said. We have weekly dialogue with the NTA and the contracts teams. We also have BusConnects meetings where we regularly discuss all the upcoming work and the challenges operators are facing. As has been said, phases have been pushed out. We delivered phase 3 this year. It was pushed out slightly to give operators more time to bring more new drivers through. Phase 5 is the next one that go live. It was due to go live at the end of November but has been moved to early 2023 to give us more time to up our establishments.

Mr. Tim Gaston

The level of collaboration on this is on a scale not seen before in Dublin because the project is of a scale not seen before in Dublin. We need to remember that we are changing every route in the city over the next couple of years. Myself, Mr. Rogan and colleagues from Go-Ahead meet on a fortnightly, if not weekly, basis. Project teams reporting to us meet every second or third day, particularly in the run-up to the introduction, to make sure everything is in place.

Regarding longer-term planning, we are trying to get the balance right between having adequate numbers of drivers to do the day job and the normal service that is running and bringing in the new services. Unfortunately, this year, we have had to move phases 3 and 4 back significantly and move phase 5 to next year - only because we do not have sufficient numbers of drivers in the network and it is wrong to put something new in if we have to rob the ongoing normal service. It is very collaborative. We have a joint project team that meets all three parties together - Go-Ahead, Dublin Bus and ourselves - on regular basis.

Regarding the eye-watering figures quoted today relating to fines illustrate how bad it has been. Traditionally, bus driving has been a very sought-after role so what kind of economy do we have if companies are having such difficulty filling these roles? That is a bigger question. I thank the witnesses for their contributions.

Has the NTA written to the Department of Transport, the RSA and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment so that they get it in terms of operators not being able to recruit drivers and that the Department of Transport needs to write to the Department of Enterprise Trade and Employment to get it to allow work permits for drivers? We are hearing that from operators nationwide.

Ms Anne Graham

We note the urgency and are aware of the request that has been put in. We know the Department of Transport is engaged with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

Has the NTA written to the Department of Transport formally about this?

Ms Anne Graham

Yes, we have.

How recently?

Mr. Tim Gaston

I think it was last week that I responded to a question from the Department of Transport.

There is an urgency there.

I will focus on recruitment, an issue that has come up regularly. I apologise for missing the opening statements. I was at a meeting of the Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action that clashes with this meeting. My question is directed at the witnesses from Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead.

How many drivers do Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead Ireland employ? What is the shortage of drivers in delivering the services to which they are contracted? Will they speak to the issues of absenteeism, or whatever the term is with regard to Covid or other reasons, and turnover of staff? I ask Dublin Bus to answer first.

Ms Andrea Keane

I am happy to provide all that information from a Dublin Bus point of view. We have a team of 3,800 in total and a driver team of 2,800. This year, we have recruited 290 new drivers into our team, which is well in excess of previous years, but we still have in excess of 150 driver vacancies to cope with the expanded network. We have a good record of low staff turnover. Our staff tend to come to Dublin Bus to stay and we are very happy to have a well-qualified, professional driver team.

Is anything new happening, post Covid, with regard to turnover in Dublin Bus?

Ms Andrea Keane

No. We have had drivers leave this year. Approximately 70 drivers retire naturally on average. This year, out of a pool of 2,800 drivers, approximately 60 of those have left. We conduct an exit interview with any staff members who are happy to participate. The reasons are varied, as the Deputy can imagine, as to why people leave.

With regard to absenteeism, Covid-related or otherwise, is Covid a particular challenge? Has Ms Keane noticed other patterns within the available workforce?

Ms Andrea Keane

Our drivers and all of our team are dedicated employees who turn up for the customer every day. I am very happy and proud to say our absenteeism levels are on a par, or better, than those of some of our peers. However, we are part of the community. Thus, if Covid is in the community, it will impact Dublin Bus. We had strong systems in place to protect our employees and customers during 2020 and 2021. We operated very well but there was Covid absenteeism. This winter, we will reflect and be mindful of what is happening in the community.

Is Covid a particular consideration or pressure in Dublin Bus with regard to its capacity to deliver on services?

Ms Andrea Keane

No. The capacity challenge at present is recruitment.

How many are Dublin Bus short?

Some 150 drivers. I ask the same questions of Go-Ahead.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

We have a team of 650 colleagues in the Go-Ahead Ireland organisation of which just over 500 colleagues are bus drivers. We have approximately 45 bus driver vacancies. However, we currently have 90 drivers learning to drive in our training school and an additional 100 people waiting to join. A large pool of people is coming into the organisation.

When will those people be recruited?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

We have been working closely with the RSA, in that we are now getting four-week tests. It was six weeks previously. It takes four weeks to learn to drive the bus before the driver has a test. Once the drivers have passed, they go through our competency-based route learning.

I will interrupt Mr. Edwards in the interest of time. What are the rates of absenteeism and turnover?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Absenteeism remains relatively stable in our organisation. We have fantastic colleagues across the organisation who are working very hard for Go-Ahead and the customers we serve every day in the community. We have seen an increase in turnover in the past year or so as we have come out of Covid. Turnover has gone up by approximately 10% to 15% on pre-Covid levels which were at approximately 8% to 9%.

What do Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead Ireland need from the NTA or Departments to speed up the recruitment of drivers, be it with regard to licensing, Garda clearance or work permits?

What would help and what has been sought?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

We would like a dedicated driving examiner. We are working with the RSA, which is giving us a dedicated resource from its side, but we would like to see a dedicated in-house driving examiner. That would allow us to do tests on a more regular basis ourselves instead of having to book and wait for tests when drivers are ready to go through. There is a card called a certificate of professional competence, where the driver gets a range of accreditations before they drive. They need the physical card before they can drive in service. We ask that drivers be allowed to drive once they pass their test. The information is in the system already; they just need the physical card to go with it. It takes quite some time after the application has been posted for the RSA to process it and post it back to the individual.

Is there anything else?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Those are our two requests.

I have the same questions for Dublin Bus. What would help to speed the process up?

Ms Andrea Keane

I thank the Deputy.

Does Dublin Bus have a plan to fill the 150 vacancies? What is the timeline?

Ms Andrea Keane

Our training school has been going continually. We have been welcoming new colleagues into our driver grade every month and continue to do so. We have drivers going through the training school. The rate of drivers coming into service from the school has varied between 20 and 25 a month this year. We have our own training school, which has been in place for many years. It has a good system in place to train drivers who come to us with a car or bus licence. Earlier this year, we put in place a meeting with the RSA to try to expedite the paperwork and see if that could be progressed. That has worked well for us. Those meetings are continuing every fortnight to make sure-----

What paperwork is that? Is it about turning six weeks into four? Will the Ms Keane give us a sense of the situation? If the 150 vacancies are being filled at 20 or 25 a month, it will take seven months.

Ms Andrea Keane

At this stage I would say that it is not about the RSA paperwork; it is about the applicants coming forward. Our engagement with the RSA has been good. It has responded to our requests. Our challenge at the moment in forward planning for our driving school relates to applicants coming forward. We are active in a wide variety of forums, including what we are doing on recruitment. I am conscious of time but I will be happy to send information to the committee afterwards if that would help. We are involved in a number of forums, both here and as part of the European community, to recruit staff.

International recruitment might be an option. We are at full employment in Ireland.

We can take it from our deliberations that we are going to be coming back to this again very quickly. We are laying down what the problems are and what solutions are being put forward. We will be bringing the witnesses back in again very quickly because we will not cover all of the areas in the timeframe today. I call Senator Craughwell.

On the issue of fines, unless I misheard, some €1.8 million has been collected in fines from both organisations. For the life of me, I cannot understand what that achieves. I know there must be some sanction, but I cannot understand what it achieves. Dublin Bus will come to the Exchequer looking for the money it is short at the end of the year. I do not know what Go-Ahead Ireland will do for the shortfall in its organisation. This is madness. I see it happening all the time across the public sector, where one organisation is fined and the taxpayer picks up the cost at the end of the day. It is outrageous that we are hearing that sort of figure. I appreciate that Ms Graham has a job to do and she does a fairly good job at trying to get all of the bits together. I am not criticising her.

As for the 63 bus in the Stepaside-Kiltiernan area, I have notes indicating that it arrived but went on an amended route once and in a single month was a no-show on the 18th, 20th, 21st, 23rd and 24th. Moreover, two buses were cancelled on the 26th of the month . That information came from Councillor Michael Fleming who is inundated with people calling him about the poor service. I am reliably told by people living in the Kiltiernan area who are located 5 km from the local Luas stop that they cannot get a bus that will get them into town for 9 a.m. Can Go-Ahead Ireland explain how this is happening?

Does Mr. Edwards want to answer that question?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

This is all down to the challenges with driver shortages. We allocate out all our work and unfortunately certain services will not operate on a given day. As much as possible we try to focus on the low-frequency routes and then ensure that subsequent services are not cancelled.

I will stop Mr. Edwards because I have limited time. Ms Graham should note that if Go-Ahead Ireland cannot meet the requirements of the local area we need a contractor that can. It is as simple as that. We cannot have a situation where people are standing at bus-stops waiting for buses in poor weather half way up the Dublin mountains. It is simply not good enough. Moreover, while I do not know who runs the Finnstown Abbey, Lucan, to Sandymount service, it has had a series of no-shows.

Senator Craughwell must conclude. He has had a lot of indulgence.

I will, but it is worth pointing out that I am a member of the committee.

He is jumping the queue.

I am jumping the queue in fairness because I have a meeting with the Minister.

I must be fair to everyone else.

The bottom line is that I cannot have this situation. I do not get involved in local issues as much as I can avoid it. I am a national politician but we really must do something about it. At the next meeting, we will have a lot more research into it.

What has come to the fore is that this is a body of work we will do as a committee.

Can I say one final thing?

Very briefly.

As a former leader of a trade union, it is my experience that companies retain employees with good terms and conditions of employment. The current demand for heavy goods vehicles, HGV, drivers throughout Europe is massive. If a company cannot retain the people it has, it must look at its terms and conditions of employment and start paying them what they are worth.

I thank the witnesses for attending. They have heard the importance of this issue. I will first ask them to take back our thanks to their staff who work so hard in difficult circumstances in a difficult job to provide vital critical services for the people of the greater Dublin area. The work they do in public transport, in providing the service, is critical to our climate action and climate challenges and they are at the forefront of that. We need to do everything possible as legislators to ensure, with the NTA, they can meet the climate targets we have set.

My experience of public transport staff is that none of them wants to cancel services, see service delays or let down the travelling public because they are committed to the work they do. However, the reality is that people have been let down quite badly. The communication from both companies has been poor and as public representatives, we have had to try to relay the reasons to our constituents when they contact us. I will give an example of a student working part-time in a restaurant in Bray trying to earn money, who comes out of work late at night on a wet October night and the 185 bus to Enniskerry is cancelled, as is the next one. That student ends up paying the small amount of wages earned that night for a taxi home. That is the reality of cancelling a service. That needs to be brought out.

I know none of the witnesses want to cancel services. I understand the difficulties with driver retention, those caused by the Covid-19 pandemic and traffic congestion but that is the reality. We need to get the messaging out in a much clearer way to people about why it is happening so that people have a better understanding why services are cancelled. They must know the reasons and not just be left standing in the wet and dark waiting for a bus that does not turn up.

I will ask a few direct questions. I want to clarify that the operation, regulation and co-ordination of public transport service requirements is the responsibility of the NTA. The day-to-day management of fleet, staff, provision and meeting those public transport service standards is the remit of both Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead. Are those statements correct? Okay, I thank the witnesses.

Were the issues flagged by both bus service companies to the NTA well in advance? Did they inform the NTA that they were having problems with drivers, Covid-19 and congestion and they would not meet their service requirements? Did Dublin Bus regularly flag that to the NTA?

Ms Andrea Keane

I am conscious of time but I thank the Deputy for his comments on behalf of our staff.

It is very much appreciated because they are doing a tremendous job every single day for our customers, and we recognise that. On the Deputy's specific question, we engage with the NTA almost daily on all the issues such as planning for BusConnects, planning for new services-----

Okay, but as the situation was arising, Ms Keane could see that drivers were leaving, there were Covid-19 outbreaks, there were delays to services, and the company was saying regularly to the NTA it was not going to meet its monthly requirements nor meet its punctuality per kilometre distance. I put the same question to Go-Ahead Ireland. I want to figure out where the public was let down. Did the company flag to the NTA regularly that it was having these difficulties and that this was the likely outcome?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

I thank the Deputy for his comments-----

I appreciate that and it is understood. If Mr. Edwards could just answer, please.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

I want to say that I am truly sorry to the customer who was let down by the 185 bus and I am sorry to all of our customers for the experience they have had. When we started to see that we were having concerns of driver establishment, we raised it and we have regular dialogue with the NTA. The authority saw our plans to bring it back with our recruitment strategy and it monitors that with us regularly.

Okay. Was the NTA satisfied it was getting regular, timely updates and that this was not a surprise to it?

Ms Anne Graham

No, it was not a surprise because we meet the operators regularly and we see the cancelled services on our systems, so we are very much aware of the issue.

Why was communication to the public so poor? Why was action not taken so that, instead of four services per hour, it was cut to three but those three were provided regularly? I know that is an operational challenge but it is better that, where there is an infrequent bus service such as the Enniskerry route, when a bus is cancelled, a person is not left standing there for two hours.

Ms Anne Graham

In effect that is what happened in Go-Ahead Ireland services There was a reduction in its services to allow it to have some recruitment done. We expected that would only be in place over the summer months but it is still extended and it has put back some services, particularly around UCD, but because of the driver shortages, the company has not been in a position to go back to the full, contracted level of service, at least not until the end of the year. We are reluctant, therefore, to take those kinds of measures because we want to get as much service out to individuals as possible.

Ms Anne Graham

The demand grew significantly over the summer period, probably higher than we had expected, as a result of the fare change.

Is that the fares reduction?

Ms Anne Graham

Yes. It was very hard to start reducing service levels-----

And then there was people's confidence in travelling on public transport coming back after Covid-19. No, I understand that. Is the NTA satisfied with the recruitment programme the company has in place and the measures it has taken? Is the NTA satisfied that in 2023 both companies will meet their service level requirements?

Ms Anne Graham

I am satisfied both companies are doing everything in their power to recruit as many drivers as they can. There are circumstances outside their control in terms of the wider economy. They are doing everything they can. Anything they have brought to our attention in terms of the process, such as with the Road Safety Authority, we have brought it to the attention of the Road Safety Authority in this instance. We are trying to squeeze weeks to try to reduce the amount of time it takes to get drivers onto the road. I am satisfied but I know there are challenges ahead, because if we want to deliver BusConnects to the extent we do, we expect the driver recruitment issue will still be a challenge for that level of expansion.

Both bus companies have answered the question on how many drivers they have. Will they be able to recruit and retain the ones they have in training and in the recruitment process? When drivers leave, do they ask them why they have left? What have they put in place to ask drivers to stay?

Ms Andrea Keane

I am happy to take that question. Staff tend to stay with Dublin Bus for a long period and some spend their entire careers with Dublin Bus. We lose around 70 staff to retirement every year and one of the measures we are looking at, in conjunction with our trade union colleagues and staff representatives, is a longer working policy which would allow people, if they so wish, to stay with the company beyond the normal retirement age. On retaining staff, I am proud to say that in 2021 Dublin Bus topped the list of companies in Ireland's top 150 companies to work for, best employee guide, and I believe that terms and conditions will attract and retain staff.

I ask the same question of Go-Ahead Ireland. Does the company talk to drivers after they have left and work out why they have left and what changes the company can make to get them to stay, or does it ask them to stay?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Yes. A significant proportion of our colleagues have been with us from the start, so we have a lot of people who stay with us long term.

We have exit interviews and we look for suitable alternatives. It could be that a particular shift does not work for an individual and if we can, we will try to accommodate that to ensure it works for the person's home life and to keep him or her in the organisation.

Is the roll-out of bus lanes and bus corridors, which would mean less time spent in congestion, one of the big issues for bus drivers? Is it one of the frustrations of the job for drivers, the company and the NTA? Are we doing enough to roll out bus lanes in a timely manner?

Ms Andrea Keane

Anything that helps make the driver role better is always to be welcomed. I appeared before the Joint Committee on Justice recently when it sought our views on the extension of bus lanes and the enforcement of the relevant provisions. We were very happy to contribute to that debate, which is very important not only for employees but also for customers.

Is being stuck in congestion and falling behind while trying to meet the timetable one of the big frustrations for Go-Ahead drivers?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Congestion is a frustration for everyone. As a regular bus user, if I am sitting on a bus in congestion, I know it is a frustration, so I feel it from the customer side as well. It is a frustration for everyone in the organisation.

The company needs to do more on that.

I read the opening statements last night and followed the earlier discussion from my office. I will try not to repeat things that have been mentioned. I thank the witnesses for attending to discuss this important topic. As one of the few members of this committee who lives in Dublin, I appreciate that running a public transport system is not the easiest thing in the world to do, particularly when facing the challenges of a city built long before we had as many cars as we do now. Our desire to use cars whenever we can obviously clogs up traffic. That said, I cycled in this morning so at least I am not taking up a parking space.

On Friday last, when I posted on Twitter that this meeting was to take place, I received 20 times the number of reactions to my tweet than I have received to any previous tweet about pretty much anything. This is clearly an issue that people are interested in. There are so many issues to discuss and I do not have anywhere near the time I need to do so. Someone rang me on Friday and I told them I had been 27 minutes on the phone with them, whereas I would only have six or seven minutes at the committee.

I ask the Senator to get back to the issue.

It is clearly a testament to how important the issues are that so many members of the committee and other Members of the Houses are here.

Councillor Damien O'Reilly from Ratoath points out that the Go-Ahead 270 bus service from Dunboyne to Blanchardstown fails every day. The service has been disastrous since Go-Ahead took it from Dublin Bus. Buses do not show up every day and the company has been giving the same standard reply for two years, namely, that staff have Covid. That is a problem for people using that service. Does Dublin Bus intend to bring back the 747 and 757 bus service, which was brilliant because people could get the bus from the city and save money on taxi fares?

Someone else mentioned that the 40E bus service, a relatively infrequent new route from the Luas Broombridge stop out to Tyrrelstown, fails regularly. On 17 October, three buses in a row disappeared from the system, which meant that after the 4 p.m. service left Broombridge, the next one did not leave until after 6 p.m.

I do not expect responses to all of these issues now but I want answers in writing after the meeting.

I was contacted by someone from the midlands who has a hidden disability and travels to Dublin two or three days a week. This person stated that the 145 bus turns up at Heuston Station, waits for five or ten minutes and then an "Out of Service" sign appears and the bus disappears. This person thinks the bus will leave and finds this very difficult. They have switched to the Luas which they find much better.

Ógra Fianna Fáil in Dublin City University is looking for a 24-hour bus service to DCU. I live on the No. 11 bus route so I would be more than happy if that became a 24-hour service. When will we get 24-hour bus services, particularly for university campuses?

The NTA has a responsibility for taxis. When more people are willing to use late-night buses, there is less pressure on the taxi system. While I appreciate there are recruitment and scheduling issues in that regard, a modern city of the size of Dublin deserves to have a 24-hour bus service on lots of routes.

The implementation of BusConnects is also an issue. Someone pointed out to me that they previously used the 79-79A service, which was a good route, but it was discontinued. All the buses that were using the bus lane on Con Colbert Road are now being forced through an area that is not yet served by BusConnects.

They are using a BusConnects spine through a route that has not been prioritised, so a journey that was 15 minutes is now 45 minutes. There is an awful lot of frustration and that is before I come to the submission from the transport coalition. Clearly, we are all interested in climate change. We are all trying to get people to use less fossil fuels. The Irish Times had a big feature last weekend, which I am sure the witnesses saw, about missing buses and ghost buses. There is a reference to Dublin Bus in particular, and I am conscious I want to give the time to respond. They are saying that a lot of drivers are leaving but we have been told a very small number of drivers are leaving. Can we get the percentage of people leaving before retirement, and how short-staffed is the company in terms of the workforce? How many drivers are needed to reach the required level for the current services? How many more are needed to do what BusConnects wants, which is a 23% increase in the level of services provided? When are we going to get credit and debit cards? What is the story with cash in the longer term? I know staff members working in relatively low-paid jobs and have to be in hotels for 6 a.m. and 7 a.m. and are working past midnight. There is a huge challenge for those people, as in the example Deputy Matthews provided from Enniskerry. They are spending their wages getting to and from work because buses are not there for them. I am not sure who wants to take what, but I think probably the NTA should answer first, in terms of where we are overall with the service. There are lots of people with a lot of concerns. I appreciate that a lot of services are being delivered every day, and it is done well, but a lot of people are being let down on a daily basis. That is not acceptable.

Ms Anne Graham

We recognise that, Senator, and we have said that in our opening statement. We apologised that the service is not at the level or the standard that we want it to be at. It is not at the standard it was at in 2019, when we saw a huge increase in the number of people travelling, because they were happy with the services being delivered. We need to get back to those standards. The real issue is the lack of drivers, and as the committee has heard, we are working with the operators to try to put back the level of service that had been in place. We are trying to do that as quickly as possible. The Senator had specific questions for us around credit and debit cards and what the story is in relation to cash. The account based ticketing system is under procurement right now. It will take at least a year to negotiate that contract. It then needs to be implemented, starting in Dublin, and then moving on a national basis. It is coming but it is a quite significant procurement of an IT system. We have to progress carefully.

I do not wish to interrupt but I want to address the real time passenger information, RTPI, system. I can go on an app or a website and look at flight radar. It shows me where every aeroplane in the world is at a given time. This is the real frustration. Why do I have a situation where the Dublin Bus app is saying one thing, the TFI app is saying something else and the screen at the bus stop is saying something else? How is it the case that people can be pulling from different sets of information? Is it not all coming from one set of information or are they all doing different sets of guesswork? Either the bus is four minutes away or it is not. I experienced this myself one day. The bus was not coming. It disappeared. It then said it was coming in 16 minutes. It was lashing rain. I looked down, I looked back up and it had flown past me, long before it was due to come. If the system is terrible, it is terrible. However, I do not know how they can all be advertising different sets of figures. How does that happen?

Ms Anne Graham

There are different feeds from the automatic vehicle location, AVL, systems that feed the different systems.

How can they be feeding different information? Either the bus is there or it is not. It is either on Baggot Street, Grafton Street or Dawson Street or it is not. Is it different sets of guesswork or what is it?

Ms Anne Graham

It may be different prediction engines, but the actual feeds that come from the AVL systems have different feeds that go the stop versus a different feed that goes to the app.

Ms Anne Graham

This is one of the challenges and it is just the way the system has been set up.

How can there be different sets of information? Either the bus is somewhere or it is not. How can the information being fed to a screen be different from the information being to a phone?

Ms Anne Graham

It can be.

How can it be different?

Ms Anne Graham

I am just saying that it can be.

Either the aeroplane is on the runway or it is in the air or it is not. How can there be different sets of information?

Ms Anne Graham

Its location is obviously fixed, as in where it is as it travels, and although the bus is not fixed it is checked.

The screen is saying it is coming, and then it vanishes. Why is it saying it is coming if it is not coming?

Ms Anne Graham

It is very hard. We could be here all day trying to explain what the real time passenger information system does, Senator.

There are probably 3,000 or 4,000 stops and X number of screens, and you have thousands of users every day relying on this information, and it is not accurate.

Ms Anne Graham

We understand that. We addressed this today to say there were issues: a combination of cancellations associated with driver shortages as well as there being technical issues.

The driver shortages are driver shortages. I still do not get how a system-----

Ms Anne Graham

I did also say-----

-----spitting out information can be spitting out different versions of the same information. What is it all based on?

There were technical problems.

Ms Anne Graham

There was also a technical problem that was addressed across the systems. Those fixes have been put in place, so we should not see the type of issue the Senator set forward. We will see the accuracy of real-time passenger information coming back to the levels that it was.

Ms Anne Graham

The initial surveys have shown that it has improved, but we have to keep testing it. It is a complicated system with many different systems managed by-----

Ms Graham will appreciate that, when I hear the word "complicated", that normally means a person cannot give an explanation. I do not buy that it is complicated. When I hear someone say, "It is complicated", that is what it basically means. The bottom line here is the NTA has a system it is challenged with. When can people start to rely on the system?

Ms Anne Graham

We would hope they will be able to rely on the system very shortly because we have done-----

"Very shortly" is as long as a piece of string. When will that be?

Ms Anne Graham

The system was very accurate up to a number of months ago.

So, what happened?

Ms Anne Graham

As I said, there were issues associated with software changes that need to be rectified and driver shortages, which effectively meant cancellations were happening to the service but may not have been reflected on the signs. A combination of those two things over the summer months have certainly seen the accuracy of the real-time system reduced. I have said-----

Does Ms Graham have any-----

Sorry, Chairman, I will try to conclude on this. The problem is that when I or a schoolchild or an elderly person looks at a screen, we think it means what it says. Logically, they think it means what it says but, in fact, it does not mean what it says. When are we going to have a system in place with the apps? I hear the Dublin Bus app is being phased out, which I am sorry about because I found it easier to navigate that the TFI app. I am sure I will get used to the TFI app when I have to, however. When are they all going to at least agree with each other?

Ms Anne Graham

That is constant work we do in terms of checking the data that go from the AVL systems into the different real-time passenger information systems, which predict when the bus will arrive. All I can say is that, in terms of trying to improve the system, we are constantly trying to improve the accuracy with both Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead Ireland to ensure-----

The Senator will have to conclude.

I am concluding. From my perspective, this is a particularly frustrating session because, there are so few members here, I thought we might get a bit longer. I appreciate why we cannot-----

That is why we are coming back to it.

-----but we need to come back to this, maybe next week or even the week after. This is clearly an enormous issue. I appreciate the work that has been done by Go-Ahead Ireland and Dublin Bus. We need the system to work and for people to have confidence in it. We need more people using and relying on it and being able to rely on it.

I want to come in on a couple of points. We are here today basically because the service in Dublin is not working at the moment. That is what they public have decided and they are basing that on evidence. I have a couple of questions. Do we have a crisis in terms of the recruitment of drivers at the moment? I will ask both Go-Ahead Ireland and Dublin Bus that question. It is a very simple "Yes" or "No". Do we have a crisis in the recruitment of drivers at the moment within the current system? Do they need to be able to recruit drivers from abroad? Obviously, South Africans stand to reason because they drive on the same side as the road as us. I will start with Go-Ahead Ireland and then move to Dublin Bus.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

We are seeing an awful lot of applications still coming into us through some of the channels we are working through to find and target certain areas and demographics to join us.

Mr. Edwards does not see a crisis in the recruitment of drivers at the moment.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Not as we currently see it.

In the current level of service Go-Ahead Ireland is providing, how many drivers is it short?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

We are approximately 45 drivers short but we have 90 drivers in the training school and 100 people waiting to join us.

When will the 90 have gone through the training school?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

It takes approximately four weeks. Now, it is taking four weeks for them to learn to drive, but they are all arranged-----

Just give me a timeframe. How quickly will Go-Ahead Ireland have the 45 drivers in situ on the ground?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

As I said in my statement, we are aiming for four to six weeks subject to certain things like getting certificate of professional competence, CPC, cards back within a timeline-----

Is Mr. Edwards saying by January?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

That is our aim.

If it is back by January, will the 30 routes operated by Go-Ahead Ireland run on time?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Will they run on time or will they run?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

We will run within our contractual framework that is required of us, yes. Let us be clear that at times a service may not operate for many reasons, such as traffic or something within our control or outside it.

The company has a contract with the NTA to deliver a service.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Yes.

At the moment the public in Dublin are basically saying that service is not being delivered.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Yes.

I want to go to the heart of the matter. Mr. Edwards is telling me the company is down 45 drivers.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Yes.

I am asking a very direct question. When will those 45 drivers be in situ?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

We are aiming for four to six weeks' time to actually have these drivers.

Does the company have any other new routes? How many routes are not operating at the moment?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

All our routes are operating. As it currently stands, we are running around 97% of our services.

Does the company have any new routes coming?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Our next new route is in early 2023, but the 90 drivers in the school are part of that plan for-----

When will those 90 drivers be in situ? Is it the start of January?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

At the start of January, probably around 45 to 50 of those drivers will be ready.

What of the other 45?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Within four to six weeks of January, so early February time.

Is the tracking system in Go-Ahead Ireland's buses linked into the NTA or is it stand-alone?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

It is an NTA system.

That is fine. I move to Dublin Bus. Is there a crisis in the recruitment of bus drivers at the moment.

Ms Andrea Keane

I would say there is a challenge. I would not say there is a crisis.

No, I am asking if there is a crisis. I am asking a direct question.

Ms Andrea Keane

I would not say there is a crisis.

Therefore, why-----

What does "challenge" mean, Chair?

I want us to get to the heart of-----

When is a challenge not a crisis?

I take Senator Buttimer's viewpoint. I want to get facts here on the timeframe. Bus Éireann is down 150 drivers. What is its total number of drivers?

Ms Andrea Keane

We have 2,800.

Then that 150 is a fair percentage of the total number. When will those 150 drivers be in place? To operate the current service the company has, how many drivers is it short?

Ms Andrea Keane

We are short 150 drivers at the moment.

When will those 150 be in situ?

Ms Andrea Keane

We estimate it will be quarter 1 next year and probably around March. It is important to note that, at the moment, we are operating about 95% of services.

But that is no good. It is no good if 5% or 10% of the service is not working. The companies signed contracts with the NTA to be able to deliver a service. They have been fined by the NTA because they are not delivering the service, so this is very simple. I am asking why. The question for both Bus Éireann and Go-Ahead Ireland is why they did not plan to recruit these drivers earlier. Why are both companies before us effectively defending the situation with late times? Why did they not recruit earlier? Why did Dublin Bus not recruit earlier?

Ms Andrea Keane

From a Dublin Bus perspective we are recruiting all the time. We have never stopped recruiting. Obviously, we had challenges during 2020 and 2021-----

Dublin Bus is a large company. How did it get to a point that Ms Keane and her colleagues are before us because they are short 150 drivers and not delivering the service? Ms Keane expects the company will not have those drivers in place until early in the new year.

Ms Andrea Keane

Correct.

Therefore, as we come into the busy Christmas period, both Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead Ireland will not be able to provide the level of service the public in Dublin are entitled to. The question is why did the companies not plan earlier for this?

Ms Andrea Keane

We did plan. I was just about to say that during 2020 and 2021, because of Covid restrictions, we were not able to run our training school as we would have liked to with respect to building up the supply of drivers. Covid regulations meant we could not have-----

Is Ms Keane blaming it on Covid?

Ms Andrea Keane

No, I am just giving the Chair the background as to what we were doing. Even during 2021, when there were not many in-person recruitment events, we were attending virtual online recruitment events. We were always very active-----

I will go back to the point. When does a challenge become a crisis? If the company is short 150 drivers and cannot deliver a service, that is to me a crisis. Does Ms Keane accept that point?

Ms Andrea Keane

The reason, if you would let me explain, Chair, and bear with me, I am calling it a challenge is there are a number of things Dublin Bus is doing. As I said, for the first six months of this year we were delivering 97% of all services. That is just 1% off the target.

I fully accept it has deteriorated in the second half of this year and that is obviously something we are working at. I will tell the Chair what we are doing if he will bear with me.

No. My problem is, a bit like the person waiting at the bus stop, I do not have the time. Returning to Go-Ahead, why did it not plan earlier? I do not wish to be rude but I have time and we need to get facts to the public. Why did Go-Ahead not plan earlier?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

We have been continually recruiting as well. There have been challenges along the way. We have been working with Dublin Bus and the NTA to work with the RSA to speed up our processes and get people through the school faster. In fact, because we need to get more people into the school we have started partnerships with some external training providers to support as well.

Okay. Moving to the NTA, why was this not flagged earlier? It looks at the moment like the principal issue for both Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead is they do not have enough drivers in place currently. The NTA is charged with the delivery and roll-out of public transport. Why was this not spotted and flagged earlier? I ask Ms Graham and Ms Gaston to deal with that and then I have one final question.

Ms Anne Graham

This particular challenge occurred over the summer months. As the Chair knows we have been coming in and out of Covid and we had another Covid challenge in March and the spring of this year. Fortunately, at the same time the Government gave us funding to be able to do fare reductions, which has increased the number of people coming back onto our public transport system. When we are planning, as we were right at the beginning of the year, we have to look forward as much as we can to see what numbers are going to be travelling and we did not think we were going to be back up at the level of journeys we currently see. We are delighted to see this level but when we were forward planning with the operators coming out of Covid, we foresaw a much slower increase in passenger journeys and passengers coming back to the system, which would have allowed us to tweak, especially in the peak time, because we have not seen the number of people travelling back at peak, as people are working from home. We felt that resource was going to be available for us to reallocate it-----

Does Ms Graham accept the principal reason is the current lack of drivers?

Ms Anne Graham

Yes, that is the principal reason.

Okay.

On the computer system, does Dublin Bus link in with the NTA's system or does the company have a separate one?

Ms Andrea Keane

We link in with the NTA. I assume the Chair is talking about the real-time information system.

Ms Andrea Keane

We have our Dublin Bus app and then we link in with the NTA for the real-time information systems.

When does the NTA anticipate the bus-going public in Dublin will have a computer service that works in real time and both Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead will be back to running at 100% efficiency?

Ms Anne Graham

That is a challenging question. If we take the real-time systems-----

It is the NTA's responsibility Ms Graham, in fairness.

Ms Anne Graham

It is, yes. Of course. The real-time passenger information system is as good as the information fed into it. The automatic vehicle location, AVL, system has to be accurate and there are times it is not because it can fail for a number of different reasons and it just may not track the bus. However, in general we try to achieve the highest level of accuracy on the real-time passenger information system. We will never be 100% accurate on it. That is just not possible to achieve, but we were in the high 90s in terms of the accuracy.

Is the NTA treating the current situation with bus services in Dublin as an emergency situation?

Ms Anne Graham

Absolutely.

Is the authority treating it like a crisis situation?

Ms Anne Graham

It is an emergency situation because it is impacting on customers. As we have seen such a significant growth in passenger numbers-----

Does the authority have an emergency plan in place?

Ms Anne Graham

We have meetings with the operators on a regular basis.

But is it meeting them more frequently than it normally would?

Ms Anne Graham

Yes.

We will come back to this because it is a huge issue on the ground. It is an issue nationally as well. I am seeing with new routes that there are not sufficient drivers. It is a huge issue and we will come back to it.

Senator Boylan is next. I believe she is online but perhaps not.

We will come back to her. I now move to substitutes of members. First up is Deputy Higgins, substituting for Deputy Carey.

Senator Gerry Horkan took the Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being here to discuss this. It is a massive issue in Dublin. I represent Dublin Mid-West, which has two BusConnects routes, the C and the G spines. We welcome the 24-hour aspect of it. The €2 90-minute integrated fare is really good for us because we have the Luas and train servicing our constituency too. The youth travel card has been particularly popular, especially with students. I know many student representatives are here today.

The proof is in the pudding when you look at the increase in passenger numbers, particularly considering that many people still work from home or are on a hybrid model. That is good news for commuters and those on the roads because they cannot use public transport but most importantly, it is good news for the environment. I thank the witnesses' organisations' staff for making that happen.

I will flag five bus routes with Ms Graham of the NTA. It is okay if she cannot respond to it today. These five routes need to be revisited. The C spine underserves Dodsborough and Hillcrest. The P29 does not start early enough. The 151 does not service Adamstown. The 68X, which was from Newcastle, was cancelled without notice to commuters and is a very valued service that no longer exists. The W6 was expected to be introduced this year but has been delayed. I spoke to the witnesses about this at previous committee meetings. It has been delayed repeatedly. It is now to be changed into two routes, namely, the W61 and the W62, to serve different elements of the routes because of a bridge. The Hazelhatch Bridge, built in 1791, was not factored into the plans. I highlighted that in my submission on BusConnects in 2018 and fairly recently wrote to Ms Graham on an idea put to me by a constituent whereby in the meantime, the W62 should travel to Adamstown train station so as to still connect commuters in Newcastle with a train line.

Capacity and reliability are the number one issues from my constituents. On the C spine, which is a Dublin Bus route, capacity is a major issue. We have full buses, particularly in the early morning, whizzing by and not picking up additional passengers because they do not have the capacity. On busy days at weekends where there is a match or concert, the same thing happens.

Our Go-Ahead routes are the L51, the L52, the 76 through Clondalkin, the 18 from Palmerston and the 175, which runs from Citywest to UCD. These may as well be phantom bus routes. They are not arriving. The experience of commuters is of being late for work, while college students miss lectures, people going to gigs or matches miss those expensive social occasions they plan for and older people stand on the side of the road alone, waiting on a bus that never arrives. The facts are that 5.9% of kilometres on the L51 in the first half of this year were lost kilometres and the figure for the L52 was 7.8%. From what witnesses have said today, I expect those statistics to be worse for the second half of the year. That is not a reliable service.

We spoke about fines earlier. Regarding Go-Ahead, the fine I have is slightly different to the one discussed. I thought it was €850 million but maybe I am looking at a national figure. Dublin Bus was €1.5 million for the first half of the year. Given that Go-Ahead has 30 routes and Dublin Bus has 119, there is a comparable issue there. I appreciate the smaller pool of drivers in Go-Ahead to choose from when people do not turn up or are sick. I am glad to hear the pipeline Mr. Edwards spoke of is much stronger.

Does Dublin Bus plan additional capacity on the routes for big events at weekends? My constituents contact me to say that is not the experience on the ground. Does it have enough resources to provide a fuller C spine service? I appreciate timings are set by the NTA and know Dublin Bus is recruiting at the moment but it feels like buses are not arriving when they should and when they do, they are full. That is a real issue for people getting to work.

I note the strong recruitment pipeline Go-Ahead has coming down the tracks and am glad of that. When will it have the resources and capacity to fulfil its contractual obligations?

From an environmental perspective, I know Dublin Bus has hydrogen buses. How is that going? To both bus operators from a diversity and inclusion perspective, as a bus user I am seeing more women driving buses, which is good. How is the pipeline for recruitment from that perspective going?

I also ask Ms Graham of the NTA to look at those five routes.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell resumed the Chair.

Ms Andrea Keane

I will take the first two questions and then bring in my colleague. Mr. Rogan is more knowledgeable on the routes on the spine the Deputy mentioned. I am pleased to say in terms of our driver recruitment being more representative that we have increased our female numbers in the driver grade. We had a very successful campaign, "Give it a spin", where we invited people to come along to an open day pre Covid and test out the bus. One of our female drivers took part in a radio media event earlier this year and encouraged more people to come forward. Time is tight so I will not go into more details but I am happy to send them along.

On sustainability, we have hybrid vehicles at the moment and, as part of Government policy, will roll out electric vehicles next year. We look forward to playing our part in sustainability, which is where the future of transport is.

Mr. Ciarán Rogan

I thank the Deputy for the question. On capacity for events, we will treat them case by case. We have put in additional capacity, depending on the event. It will always be done in discussion with the NTA because that body has the complete overview of events in the city. We will also take a view as to the alternatives available, in terms of other modes or private operators, for example. We have been entirely open to additional capacity for events in conjunction with the NTA, and that is treated case by case. The more advance notice we have, the better and the easier it is to plan. We are conscious we cannot put on additional capacity in one part of the city for an event and deprive another part of regular services.

On C-spine capacity generally, we have been in correspondence and have had a lot of contact with people on the ground. The C-spine is the same as any other major spine. Where capacity issues arise in the morning or evening peaks, they are quickly identified to us by representatives like the committee members and by our staff. Where that is the case, with the NTA we quickly put together a case for additional trips. The NTA has in the past been very positive about funding them so it is not been an issue. It is about identifying something and making sure it is sustainable.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

I thank the Deputy. To answer her first question around the reliability of our services, we are seeing week-on-week improvements in the past four or five weeks. We are at 97% reliability for the last week, 1% off our contractual requirements. As I explained, we have a strong pipeline of people coming through the training department. As they come out week by week, we will continue to see improvements across all our services in the Deputy's area and our whole network. We are looking at four to six weeks, if everything goes to our current plan and timelines. By January we anticipate being in a strong position to operate all our services.

The Deputy asked about females in the industry. We are always looking for females. We are seeing female applicants coming in. We as an industry probably need to do more to encourage women into the industry.

Will Mr. Edwards give the commitment that his organisation will reach its contractual obligations on the routes I mentioned in Lucan, Clondalkin, Palmerstown and Citywest in the next four to six weeks?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

That is where our current timelines are scheduled to get us to.

I thank Deputy Higgins. I now move to Deputy McAuliffe, substituting for Deputy Cathal Crowe.

I thank the Chair and committee members for allowing me to be here today.

I will direct my initial comments to Go-Ahead Ireland and Dublin Bus. I accept that they have covered this to some degree. When we talk about these things, it seems like statistics. It is 1 p.m. now. In about ten minutes time, I will be in the Dáil canteen. There are two members of staff there who get the No. 40 bus. I know both of them will tell me about the problems they had this morning because there was a bus at 8.05 a.m. and the next bus at Plunkett Avenue was at 8.50 a.m. Those were the two options for the people on Plunkett Avenue and the surrounding areas today. When I finish my lunch, I will go upstairs to the press office. A young man working there is from Finglas south. He will tell me about the bus service last week where there were nearly 48 minutes between departure times at Parnell Square. That is just this building and that is just one route. I could give details about many routes in Dublin 9 and Dublin 11. What do I say to these people? What do I say on behalf of Dublin Bus? It is a very direct question.

Ms Andrea Keane

As I said in my opening statement, we are very sorry we are unable to deliver the full service that Dublin Bus has always provided and always seeks to provide. I understand fully the Deputy's comment about statistics. I can assure him it is not a matter of statistics for Dublin Bus. I grew up in a house where neither of my parents were able to drive and our whole life revolved around the bus. The bus was everything. We used it for school and work and if something went wrong. I was from the generation before real-time information so I know the frustration of standing in the rain waiting for a bus when you have no idea whether it will come. Everybody in Dublin Bus feels the pain of not delivering that full service at the moment.

There is a real impact. One gentleman last week told me he received a verbal warning from his employer because of a consistent failure to attend. Another lady told me she had to pay a late crèche fee because she was unable to get back. I accept that Dublin Bus has recruitment issues but what we are discussing today has real-life implications and this can often get lost in the statistics. Go-Ahead Ireland and Dublin Bus have said they have a pipeline coming. Does Ms Graham believe the RSA will have the capacity to be able to test and process those people within that timeframe?

Ms Anne Graham

I cannot really speak for the RSA because I do not know the details of its systems. All I can say is that both operators have been in close contact with it, as we have, to speed up this process as much as possible and they have been very responsive in terms of that.

What work have Go-Ahead Ireland and Dublin Bus done with the RSA to indicate the flow that is coming towards it?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

We and Dublin Bus have been working together to engage with the RSA. We have sent it our pipelines for recruitment for the next 12 to 18 months so it knows the numbers it needs. We have fortnightly meetings with the RSA where we talk about what is coming up and where the RSA is with the tests that are currently in the system. It has now given us dedicated examiners. I cannot speak for Dublin Bus.

That is very encouraging. What about Dublin Bus?

Ms Andrea Keane

It is the same. We have a fortnightly meeting with the RSA, which has been very responsive to the issues we face and is fully supportive of trying to bring this forward, as are we with our own recruitment campaign.

I will move on to some broader issues relating to the NTA. I hear the frustration of Dublin Bus and its passion for its service. I appreciate that it is the same for Go-Ahead Ireland. We all want better public transport. We all want reliable public transport that is going to encourage people to get out of their cars. That is where this frustration comes from. It comes from our constituents. I met with students from DCU two weeks ago who spoke about a 24-hour bus service for DCU. That is something we would really like to see delivered. The N4 has proved to be really popular and is a very well-run service that is very frequent. The N6, which is run by Go-Ahead Ireland, is a bit more patchy.

In particular, the bunching of services in Finglas village, where the terminus is based, has caused significant problems. People are enquiring when the N2 will come through. Could Ms Graham tell me when the E and F spines might come along?

Ms Anne Graham

I might ask Mr. Gaston to respond to those questions. These are planned service improvements. It really is down to whether driver resources are available. We will not put those improvements in if it will impact current services. These improvements may be delayed, just as we have had to delay other BusConnects routes due to the shortage of drivers. Our intention is to get these in as quickly as possible

Mr. Tim Gaston

DCU services primarily will pick up with the A and D spines. We hoped that both of those would be in this calendar year but I do not think this is achievable given that we are rolling back phase 5, which concerns the southern orbitals, into next year. The two W routes that have been discussed must also roll back because of driver issues. With those two phases going back, subsequent phases will also roll back. I am hopeful that the F spine may still be deliverable in 2023, which would provide the 24-hour-service to DCU, along with the N4, which is already a 24-hour service.

What about the N2?

Mr. Tim Gaston

I am not so sure about that. I am trying to find out exactly when-----

It is the Griffith Avenue orbital. Mr. Gaston might come back to me on that.

Mr. Tim Gaston

I will have to come back to the Deputy. I might have some information but I cannot find it unless any of the operators know. It is phase 7 or 8. That would be later on next year or early 2024.

The witnesses might help us to understand the cause of the frustration felt by somebody looking at real-time information when a bus disappears. People cannot understand how this happens with a real-time information system. Where does the bus go? Could the witnesses help us to understand that because it adds so much to people's frustration? What leads to the decision to cancel? Are services pre-loaded and subsequently removed?

Mr. Ciarán Rogan

I will happily try to explain that because it is one of the biggest frustrations expressed to us. This may happen for a number of reasons. The primary reason is that if a service is cancelled by the garage or central control at the last minute because of driver absence or sickness, or congestion in another part of the city causing a knock-on effect, that information has to be fed into the real-time system. If that is not done within a certain period of time, the system will basically record what the timetable is meant to be. The onus is on us to have enough drivers so that we do not cancel and then if something is cancelled, to ensure it is on the system on time because the sooner it is in the system, the sooner-----

If there is a driver absence, I doubt Dublin Bus only knows about that five minutes before the cancellation.

Mr. Ciarán Rogan

That is why I said it could be driver sickness or something for which we have no immediate cover. In the same way mobile phone coverage can drop out, the coverage of the bus may drop out. It can happen if a bus goes off route because of a demonstration, congestion or something happening in the city. It can happen because there is a failure by the driver to log on. For example, if a bus in Parnell Square is changing drivers and it is not done effectively, it can take a number of minutes for the system to-----

I think I have exhausted the Chairman's patience.

Mr. Ciarán Rogan

I could give the Deputy another ten reasons.

I am conscious that more members wish to come in and I am very conscious of time

I wrote to the committee during the first week when the G spine rolled out because the experience on the ground was such a shambles. I begin by praising Dublin Bus. It has been a fantastic employer over a long period of time. Family members of mine who are retired worked in Dublin Bus and had an exceptional employee experience.

That stands as testament to Dublin Bus as a good employer, on which I congratulate it.

I also congratulate Dublin Bus on how it ran the 79, 79A and 40 bus routes. I have with me a sample email of the many contacts I have received, according to which it was a fantastic, regular, fairly punctual and always reliable service. But then it changed. In the past few weeks, it disappeared and was replaced with the utter shambles that was the G spine. People did not know where their bus stops were or where to go. There was a change of route and they did not know it. There was no communication on this to the public. According to a sample I have put together, no bus stops were flagged, bus routes were changed, there was no change in the apps and people had no idea where the buses would serve and stop. On bus stops where there was a notification, I have photographic examples of some, the notification was too high or too small and people did not pay any heed to them. Bus journeys into the city that would normally take 20 to 30 minutes were now taking over an hour. In several instances, buses that were full to capacity passed by and people had to wait another 20 minutes for the next one to come. That bus would then surprisingly go via Mount Brown, which is a bottleneck at the best of times. The 60 route appears to be a replacement for the 79 and 79A, which should be a quicker route because of the bus lanes, but the number and frequency of buses has been greatly reduced.

From reading the opening statements, this boils down to a number of issues. The first is recruitment, which the NTA says it has known about since last spring. Another is the issue of choked roads, meaning there were infrastructural changes that needed to be made prior to the changing of the bus roll-out. While the public expects information to be reliable, the operator and oversight body know that there are software issues and have not communicated to the public that they cannot and should not rely on the information. There are whole hours of cancelled services on the G spine in particular.

There was also a cyberattack. According to newspaper reports at the time, people were told that they had to rely on screenshots of their rosters in order to know, as there did not appear to be a backup plan. The backup plan took a week or two and people only received the week's basic payments. To be fair, Go-Ahead caught up. I want reassurance that there is a backup plan now should there be another cyberattack, given that cyberattacks are an everyday reality.

Communication to the public is absent. The travelling public are growing in their reliance on public transport and making good choices, but parents are being called out of work to drive their children to school. In Chapelizod, the route was completely changed and direct connectivity between there and the schools in Lucan was removed without infrastructural support, which will not come for another two or three years. To quote Dublin Bus's submission, the "pace of expansion of the network is outstripping the pace of recruitment". The NTA is rolling out bus spines without the necessary recruitment or infrastructure in place. This is unsatisfactory. The NTA is telling us that there are choked roads before we change the infrastructure, yet we know that the NTA is planning to have applied for planning permission on many BusConnects routes by the end of the first quarter of next year. Where is the answer? Where is the reassurance for the public that there is actual planning happening? God knows, enough money is being spent on consultants by the NTA.

Ms Anne Graham

I will start with the question on why the bus network was put ahead of the bus corridors. It would have been preferable if the bus corridor infrastructure had been put in place ahead of the network, but then the public would have needed to wait for a much improved network of services in advance of getting the infrastructure.

We want to do BusConnects as a whole and for it to be measured as a whole, but its implementation must be done on a phased basis. We wanted to bring a better network to the people of the greater Dublin area, and I believe we are doing so through the BusConnects network. We wanted to bring that ahead as early as possible and then have further benefits associated with the bus corridors, which would start reducing journey times and removing congestion from the system to provide for even greater reliability.

Mr. Gaston might speak to the G spine. We acknowledge that its running times have turned out to be longer than we had planned. We need to respond to that quickly.

Mr. Tim Gaston

There is a lead-time of approximately six months between when we finish planning something like the G spine, the previous C spine or the other spines and when we can implement. Like the Senator, and working with Dublin Bus, we predicted in February to April of this year the running times on the G spine that we needed for the schedules that were going to be put in place. All of the work that had to be done by Dublin Bus and our own systems to deliver in October was planned in March or April. At that stage, we did not anticipate the speed at which the economy would recover and that congestion would become an issue again. We are holding our hands up and saying that the running times were too tight.

We had the opposite problem on the C spine, where running times were too generous and buses had to slow down and wait to achieve the timelines. We adjusted those on the C spine within a couple of weeks initially, after which there were further phases of adjustment. We are in the process of doing the same on the G spine. Adjustments are happening this week and over the next couple of weeks to take account of the longer running times that are needed.

The Senator mentioned Mount Brown. At Winetavern Street and one or two other places, we are aware of pinch points. We are working with Dublin City Council on those to see how we can get buses through them more quickly – through signalling or other traffic measures – and running approximately to schedule.

All of this has happened at a time when congestion has, unfortunately, become a major issue again. It is not identical to the congestion we had previously. Dublin Bus, Go-Ahead and we are aware of where congestion used to build up, but there is a different pattern to it now. We are seeing more congestion in the suburbs and less in the city centre itself. We believe this reflects fewer white-collar workers coming in to work and more people working from home.

We are out of time, but is there something that the Senator wished to follow up on with the other witnesses?

I would like confirmation from everyone that there is now a plan B for another cyberattack. People are relying on AI to supervise all of this.

Ms Anne Graham

We plan constantly to ensure that we do not have a failure of our services due to a cyberattack. We are sure that we have done as much as we can to ensure that our systems are safe from cyberattack.

Does the NTA have a specific cyberattack policy?

Ms Anne Graham

We have a cybersecurity policy.

Ms Andrea Keane

We have a detailed plan and a business continuity plan. As we all know, criminals are now very sophisticated but, in the event of an attack, we have a plan and a business continuity plan.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

It was a challenging period for us. Our colleagues in Go-Ahead Ireland were brilliant and stepped up to provide support during that time. We had business continuity plans but have learned from what happened and have changed those plans. We are working with our group, as it was the group's servers that had the issue. Our rostering allocation system is done in a different way now so that we will always have access to it separately. When we have our full report from the group in January, I will share what we have learned with colleagues in the bus sector.

We must make the point that, when a spine is being rolled out, the travelling public need to be warned that these are trial timetables so that they do not rely on them and can know that there will have to be adjustments.

That needs to get out to the public so that people understand this is trial and error and that technically, they are guinea pigs in a system that has to be rolled out to be perfected. There may then be a little more patience on the part of the public because they will appreciate that they are in a trial experience.

I thank the Senator. It is communication

Communication has to be dealt with full stop.

We will come back to this issue over the next couple of weeks. Deputy Cronin is deputising for Deputy Ó Murchú. She has six minutes. I am conscious of time. An awful lot of other members have yet to come in.

I am grateful to be in a position to be able to attend this meeting. I am normally at the Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action, which happens to sit at the same time. When we talk about joined-up thinking, transport and climate change are intrinsically linked. It is a pity that the meetings conflict when one is a spokesperson for that issue.

I wish to ask Dublin Bus about any plans for the C-spine in north Kildare of which I am a representative. The C-spine comes as far as Maynooth through Leixlip and Celbridge. We used to have a Dublin Bus service that went to Kilcock. Is there any sign of that happening again?

The C3 and C4 routes come in through Maynooth from the east side. Maynooth is expanding to the north and west. I grew up in Dublin where I never looked at a timetable. I went up the road for the 19A bus and down the road for the number 11 bus. There was a bus every ten minutes. I did not have to worry about it. Buses are not that frequent in n north Kildare, however. People who live on the opposite side of Maynooth have to walk one mile to a bus stop, which is mad when we are in the middle of a climate crisis. The easy option should be to get onto a bus. We should be making it easier for people. The Dublin Bus representatives might also get back to me on Kilcock.

I raised the issue of public transport with the Taoiseach and Tánaiste. I brought it up at the Joint Committee on Gender Equality and Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action. We talk about chaos theory and the butterfly flapping its wings. It affects everybody, particularly women. A number of women have to get off work to drop a child to Maynooth university because the bus has not turned up and is a no-show or has disappeared from the app. It is generally women who have to do that. Even when a person is late for work, his or her job is not being done. It affects the economy. It affects people's co-workers and the service that is being delivered. It has a knock-on effect on absolutely everything, not to mention the stress it causes.

A person must wait for the Go-Ahead Ireland 120 bus service, which is appalling. It is dreadful. It is so bad that I do not think Go-Ahead Ireland should get the contract again. A person might wait half an hour for a bus. If someone is ten minutes early, he or she must stand in the rain in Clane or Prosperous in north Kildare to wait for the bus that does not turn up. It could take another half hour. A person could be standing for an hour and ten minutes in the cold and rain waiting for a bus in north Kildare. It really is unacceptable.

Does the Deputy have a question?

Yes. How are the transport organisations going to fix this and make things better for my constituents?

Go-Ahead Ireland may answer first.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

I will touch on the 120 service. In the last four weeks, it has run more than 98% of the services in three of the weeks. One week, it dropped down to 94%.

That is in the past four weeks.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

In the past four weeks.

Granted, there has been an improvement compared to the past six months but it has been appalling.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

It has been a real challenge. I can only apologise to all of our customers for that. As we explained during the committee meeting today, driver shortage has been a challenge. We have managed to improve the Dublin commuter services, however. We run that from our Naas depot. We have managed to get enough drivers in that place now to support our requirements to run those services. The 120 service and all of those routes have seen improvements in the last four to five weeks.

Is Mr. Edwards happy that Go-Ahead Ireland will be able to keep that now? It has 45 vacancies. Are there any big changes on that line?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

The 45 vacancies are for the whole service.

I understand that.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

We need approximately four drivers for the Dublin commuter part of this. However, we can cover that in a sustainable way with-----

The reason I have been given is that Covid-19 is causing a problem.

Does Go-Ahead Ireland still have Covid restriction measures on its buses, for example, keeping the windows open and stuff like that?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

We do not have windows on some of our coaches but on the ones we do, we still have the signs. We encourage colleagues to open windows in the morning so that they are ready. I use buses most days. I am normally the person walking down the bus opening the windows and then someone gets on and shuts them. That is probably an education piece we need to do across the whole of the country about air flow.

Is Mr. Edwards confident that Go-Ahead Ireland will be able to keep this at 98% efficiency?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

That is our aim. Based on where we are currently at, the answer is yes.

Dublin Bus might respond on Kilcock and extending the route of the C-spine.

Mr. Ciarán Rogan

Those are two separate issues. I will have to come back to the Deputy on Kilcock. We do not have any immediate plans.

It used to be on the Dublin Bus route and then it was taken off. I brought it up at meetings with Dublin Bus already.

Mr. Ciarán Rogan

Okay. I do not have an immediate answer for the Deputy. I will have to get back to her if that is okay.

Mr. Ciarán Rogan

As regards C4 and C3, as I understand it, the Deputy is essentially making the case for greater local links.

No. The bus should go around the town and not just come in and go back out the road it came from. It should circle the town. I made that submission to BusConnects as well. The people to whom I have spoken all think it is a very good idea so I do not see why not.

Mr. Ciarán Rogan

Certainly, for other areas the C-spine visits or services, there are local links specifically to service the town and surrounding area etc. That is not the case for Maynooth but it is certainly something on which we will come back to the Deputy if that is a consideration. I am not sure if Mr. Gaston has any thoughts on that.

I would appreciate that. I thank Mr. Rogan very much.

I thank Deputy Cronin very much. She has been very helpful. I will now move to Senator Fitzpatrick who is deputising for Senator Dooley. She has eight minutes. I ask her to try to keep within that time.

I thank everyone for their attendance today. I commend all their staff on the work they do. The bus service is really important in the city. It is hugely valuable socially and economically. We appreciate it and we would like the witnesses to pass on that appreciation to their staff. They are hearing many complaints here and people would think it was all bad; it is not. The services are really valued. They are so valued that when they do not work, we really miss them. That is what all the complaining is about. The complaints are legitimate.

I have a specific question for Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead Ireland. The Fianna Fáil Dublin parliamentary party group carried out a survey this summer on antisocial behaviour on public transportation. Some 93% of those who responded said they had witnessed antisocial behaviour of some description or another. One in three had personally experienced it. Less than 6% actually reported it and got a satisfactory response. There was very strong endorsement for having the gardaí deployed onto public transportation. There was an overwhelming endorsement for that proposal from in excess of 80% or 85% of the public. These were all public transport users. We went out to the Luas and bus stops with cards and we had an online survey. These were people who used the public transport services on a regular basis and really valued it. How much do the transport operators spend on security every year? How much do they think vandalism, antisocial behaviour and the withdrawal of services is costing? Those are my first two questions.

Ms Andrea Keane

I will start if that is okay. I do not have precise figures on the total spend on Dublin Bus services but I am happy to come back to the Senator with that information. I would like to take a few minutes to outline what we are doing in Dublin Bus with regard to antisocial behaviour. I will start with something that is maybe not obviously or immediately apparent even to our customers sometimes, which is that every Dublin Bus vehicle is in constant contact with central control. The buses and drivers are never isolated and out on their own. Each bus is also equipped with 14 CCTV cameras both internally and externally, believe it or not. Our CCTV footage is of an extremely high quality and has been recognised as such by An Garda Síochána. It has proven very helpful where there have been incidents of antisocial behaviour.

On the number of incidents, we accept that they are very distressing on an individual basis. The fact that they are relatively low in number in the context of the scale of our operations does not mean that we do not take them seriously or investigate each incident. Even if a customer does not report something, each driver must fill in a report at the end of the journey documenting the trip, and we look at and examine those statistics.

We are also active in a number of forums. I know this was referred to earlier, so I will not repeat all the forums. I would be happy to send the information requested to the committee. We are very active with communities and work with them in explaining the importance of the bus network. It has been said many times today how it is such a vital part of everybody's life. We link with An Garda Síochána and are active in our dialogue with it.

And that is reflected. I would welcome if Dublin Bus could send me on the cost details.

Ms Andrea Keane

I will of course.

Does Go-Ahead known what the cost is?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

I do not know that figure. We have inspectors across our network who support our driver colleagues throughout the day and who deal with any incidents that happen. We also have all the measures that Ms Keane mentioned. We have been working with many community centres in the past six months to promote public transport and show the impact of stone throwing and general antisocial behaviour towards public transport in order to educate as we go along.

Both Mr. Edwards and Ms Keane will be happy to hear it was reflected in the survey results that buses are considered to be one of the safest modes of public transport in comparison with the DART, the Luas, mainline rail or taxis. I say "Well done." I would like the details relating to cost sent on.

I will move on to the NTA. One of the issues that came up was reporting. People feel that they either do not report or if they do report, they do not get it. That reflects the communications issue, which has been well aired today. I do not get why there are multiple sources for real-time information, particularly in light of modern communications technology. I heard the explanation. I will not ask witnesses to explain the position again.

The other big software-related issue that people do not understand is why the introduction of cashless payments has taken more than a decade. When Covid hit, every small operator was able to go cashless within a matter of weeks or months. People use the Leap card. The way the card has evolved is good, but people do not understand why they cannot use their phones to pay and why it has taken more than ten years to deliver. We are two years out from when the system will be in place. What is the timeline for that and why is it taking so long?

On community consultation and engagement, I recognise and welcome the organisations' participation in forums. There is huge frustration in the Dublin Central constituency because the NTA has lodged two planning applications, one for MetroLink and the other for the BusConnects' Ballymun-Finglas route into the city. Both projects are broadly welcomed and supported, but the planning applications relating to them are enormous. The NTA is well resourced to prepare such applications and engage with the process. Individual residents are-----

The Deputy's time is up. If she has a final question to ask, she should ask it now.

Why did the NTA submit both applications at the same time? There are 16 spines on BusConnects and there are others being progressed. That is crippling the local community.

Ms Anne Graham

Because there is an urgency to deliver public transport infrastructure right across the city, it was important that we got those applications in as soon as possible. Which application should be held back while waiting for the other to go through? At this stage, it is critical for the public transport system in Dublin to have the type of infrastructure like MetroLink and the-----

No one disputes that.

Ms Anne Graham

As a result, we need to put it through the planning system as quickly as possible.

But there are 15 other spines.

Ms Anne Graham

That is why we need to move them through the planning process as quickly as possible.

We keep referring to cashless payments as if Leap is not cashless. Leap is a cashless payment methodology

You have to buy a Leap card.

Ms Anne Graham

It is very simple to buy. I do not think it is that difficult to purchase a Leap card.

It is also something else to lose. People do not understand why it cannot be done.

Ms Anne Graham

It is also easy to top up. We have put many different applications in place in order to make it easy for people to use their Leap card.

Ms Graham will appreciate, in the cashless age in which we live, that it should be normal for a person to get on a bus and put his or her bank card up to a machine to pay the fee.

Ms Anne Graham

That would require a new system because the current system cannot support it.

Is Dublin Bus working on that?

Ms Anne Graham

Yes, we are.

In the modern age of technology, one would like that to be expedited.

It has been worked on for more than ten years. How long more will it be?

Ms Anne Graham

It has not been worked on for ten years. We have had a Leap card system that has been developed over the past ten years. We only just recently got-----

How long before the cashless system will be in place?

Ms Anne Graham

It will take a number of years.

How many years?

Ms Anne Graham

I cannot give an exact number. We are in the middle of a procurement process, involving a significant investment in IT infrastructure.

We will come back to this again.

Ms Anne Graham

We can provide more details when we have gone through the procurement process.

Eight people have indicated. I have looked for an extra ten minutes. I will allow people five minutes each, at which time I will cut them off. It is not my style, but I want to allow everyone in. There are many non-members present who are seeking to come in. I am trying to be fair. Not enough questions have been asked. As a result, I want people to get straight into questions in order that we get extra information. The format is simple. I will go with the two committee members first, followed by the non-members. The order will be: Senator Buttimer; Deputy Ó Murchú; Deputy Bríd Smith; Deputy Whitmore; Deputy Costello; and Senator Currie. Deputies Lahart and Boyd Barrett also indicated but they have not arrived yet. I will include them if they do arrive.

As a non-Dublin person, I thank our guests from the different companies for being here. I wish to express the frustration that Members of the Houses have. That should be obvious in light of the number of people attending the meeting. I have been provided with requests from 14 councillors and Members of the Oireachtas, who cannot be here today. With the Chairman's permission, I will make my representations to the organisations and they can get back to me and the people I name rather than delaying proceedings.

There are challenges. I am smiling because there are crises, emergencies and challenges. I appreciate that and I thank the staff of Go-Ahead Ireland and Dublin Bus for the work they do and for the courtesy shown. Staff members have raised a number of issues in the context of safety. I was at the National Bus and Rail Union conference when those present were seeking a dedicated public transport service. My question to the NTA is in the context of accountability in the context of Dublin Bus and the other Bus company. What is the NTA's role in that?

This issue is not just about Dublin. I accept, however, that this meeting relates to Dublin. I hope we can come back to the matter in terms of BusConnects in Cork. I thank the NTA in that regard. I will not delay the meeting. I have a document that I will give to each organisation. I thank representatives for being here. I ask them to express my thanks to their staff; they are exceptional people who do a lot of work in a very crowded and pressurised environment.

Ms Anne Graham

The Senator wishes to know who is accountable.

Yes. We have issues and in the overall hierarchy, the NTA is responsible.

Ms Anne Graham

The NTA has the contract with the operators. They are contracted to deliver services at a certain standard and we impose deductions if they do not reach that standard. We are working together, as we always do, to see if there are issues around why they cannot meet the standards. We work with them to see if we can get a better service, collectively, for the public transport customer. We acknowledge that was not the case over the summer months, but we have seen and believe we will continue to see improvements. By the end of the year, we hope to be back to the service levels and service reliability that we had prior to Covid.

My question is for Dublin Bus. I was at a meeting of the Joint Committee on Autism addressed by representatives of Autism Assistance Dogs Ireland. Ms Debbie Carr spoke about the assistance dog, Gandhi, that her 21-year-old son Aidan uses.

She brought up the issue and said that Aidan had been refused access onto a bus twice in the last month. She also spoke about how this could have been far worse were it not for the relationship with the dog and the advantages the dog provides in respect of self-regulation and so forth. There would be no question of this happening if one was dealing with someone who had vision difficulties. This is something that needs to be addressed in order that it does not happen again because we are dealing with a considerable number of autistic people and life is difficult enough. We need to be able to offer them their full rights as citizens and I believe there has been a serious mistake here. I am not blaming the witnesses but it is something that needs to addressed in a holistic way in order that we do not see more incidents like this.

Ms Andrea Keane

I am happy to answer this question for the Deputy. I sincerely apologise if any customer has been refused access to our services in that way. Providing a service for all customers, and particularly our more vulnerable customers, is at the core of everything we do in Dublin Bus. We have a travel assistance scheme, which the Deputy is probably familiar with, which we have increased and expanded in recent years, where we arrange a visit to help someone use our service and to show how this can be done. Accessibility on all forums is very important to us and indeed to the National Transport Authority, NTA. We will certainly look into the particulars mentioned by the Deputy and will come back to him in more detail on that case.

I assure the Deputy that accessibility for all users for the Dublin Bus services is at the core of everything. All of our services are equipped for wheelchairs. We also have services where in addition to the wheelchair space, there are buggy spaces, together with signs. It is something that goes to the core of everything we do.

I believe Aidan's mother, Debbie Carr, has sent an email into Dublin Bus and there needs to be a direct response. I understand that bus drivers have a job to do and are under great pressure but we need to ensure there is an element of education because we would all agree that this just should not happen.

Ms Andrea Keane

I completely agree with the Deputy. We are very active in this space with a number of forums. We were, I believe, one of the first bodies to come forward with the just a minute, JAM card and with a number of items in which we get involved with the community. I am very happy to apologise to the customer for that issue and we will certainly come back to the individual if an email has been sent to us.

That said, there is the wider issue of the need for internal communications.

Ms Andrea Keane

Yes. Absolutely.

I enjoyed our guest speakers’ presentation and that of Dublin Bus, in particular, because I was struck by the fact that the advertisement it brought out for recruitment was very relevant. It showed all of these drivers being thanked and the slogan was to ask what other job could one do in which one is thanked hundreds of times a day. It is true, as Dublin is unique in that people do actually thank the drivers every time they complete a trip. I hope that that goodwill is not lost because of the current absolute debacle which has taken place on the streets.

I drove down the Ballyfermot Road and up Inchicore yesterday and the crowds at the bus stops were unbelievable. They were visibly angry and fed up. Many of them may have been facing being disciplined at work and so forth for being late. There is something very rotten going on here.

I address my questions to Ms Graham from the NTA. There is an expansion in BusConnects, which we all welcome. Night buses and buses with greater frequency are lovely but it is not happening. The NTA insisted on going ahead with that expansion in the knowledge that there were serious staff shortages.

Ms Graham’s colleague said earlier on that the NTA could not anticipate the problems with the running time but it did anticipate the serious staff shortages as we met BusConnects over the G spine No. 60 route, which is a complete joke. The 79 bus was taken out of lower Ballyfermot and the 60 bus was brought in, which allegedly comes once an hour but does not, and probably comes once every two hours. This is really hurting the local population. Elderly people cannot get to mass or to shops, nor can women with their children. This is very much damaging the relationship between Dublin Bus and the services around that area and it is not fair to them. It happened overnight in the knowledge, where Hugh Creegan told our committee that NTA was very aware of staff shortages and that implementing BusConnects in that atmosphere was completely wrong. I want to know from Ms Graham why the NTA insisted upon that.

I also want to make a larger point, which I am making more to the people around this table than just to Ms Graham or the NTA. At the core of this issue is the question of privatisation. If we were not forcing two companies to compete with each other in a tendering process that is often stressful, long, competitive and so forth; and forcing their drivers to work longer shifts in order for the companies to be competitive; with lower and very low wages in the Go-Ahead Ireland company; then we might be able to retain drivers. The question of recruitment is not the problem, it is one of retention. If one is asking drivers to work longer and more sustained shifts over longer periods of time for less and less money, then the company will lose them. I worked in Dublin Bus myself and my father was there for 40 years and it is a great company to work for but when you push something into competitive tendering for a process that leads to worse conditions, then you are looking at a race to the bottom. I argue and say to all of the established parties who screamed to open up the public services to privatisation that the chickens have come home to roost. It should never have happened. It is an essential public service and should be entirely in public hands.

To whom would the Deputy like to address her questions?

I address my first question to the NTA and I wish to address a further question then to that body.

I suggest to the Deputy that she might do both, please, because I am conscious of time.

I am conscious of time too and I am watching the clock.

I am trying to be very fair to members.

If the Chairman would stop talking, I would have more time to ask my questions.

Please, Deputy, that is unnecessary.

What are we going to do to address the question-----

Do not grandstand

----- of the 60 bus in lower Ballyfermot? We have written to the NTA and are looking for a meeting with the authority. What will the authority do to address the backlog in Chapelizod and to address the Go-Ahead Ireland service on route 18?

I also ask the NTA whether it would agree with me that the competition in the public transport system has created that race to the bottom and that this is a question of the chickens coming home to roost.

Ms Anne Graham

On the G spine, the delivery, and the 60 route which is associated with it; those services have been in place for two to three weeks at this stage. We will be continuing to do assessment on those services. We have already admitted that the running times are not sufficient and we need to do more with Dublin Bus on that issue. Mr. Gaston has already said that we will look to see, with Dublin City Council, if there is anything we can do to reduce the journey times. When we start a service, there is a period of hyper-care where we are checking it on a daily basis to see what improvements can be made. It is at that stage then that we assess whether there is any additional frequency or anything else that needs to be put in place based on the demand for those services.

We need a couple of more weeks of operation before we can see what kind of changes, if any, need to be made to those services.

Will the NTA meet the public representatives in the meantime because people in Ballyfermot and Inchicore are screaming at us and asking what is going on? I ask the NTA at least to have a meeting and explain to the public representatives in order that we can go back and explain to the public.

Ms Anne Graham

We will do that at the stage when we have had the operation of the service for a period of time to allow us to make any changes we need to undertake in that period. Of course, we will meet the public representatives.

The NTA, is open, then, to meet with the Deputy.

For people waiting at bus stops for hours and hours and not having any guarantee of when a service is coming; a week is a long time, never mind a month or two months, which Ms Graham is looking for.

Will the NTA, then, give a commitment to meet Deputies?

Ms Anne Graham

Yes, absolutely.

On the issue of competition, we have been in this chamber before explaining the reasons we introduced competition into a monopoly market. It drives improvements across the sector, which is acknowledged. We would not agree with the Deputy’s contention.

I am very sorry to hear if Ms Graham calls that improvement.

I will move to the next speaker and I call Deputy Whitmore to speak. She has five minutes.

I thank the Chairman for this opportunity to voice the frustrations and concerns of my constituents in Wicklow. As for the issues with the bus service, I have been having discussions with them for a number of months. My first meeting with the Go-Ahead Ireland company was in April of this year. This is not just something that has happened over the past month or two. I do not believe it can be described as an emergency situation because emergencies should not be continuing over such a long period of time. This has been highlighted for many months and we have not seen a resolution to the issues since it has been highlighted.

I am referring specifically to the Wicklow services, namely, the 184, 185, 45A, 84X and the 65 routes. In those services, we are seeing no-shows.

We are seeing drivers driving past bus stops and people being left stranded. I am hearing of people late for work, school and college. It is just not good enough. The public transport service that people deserve and need is not being provided. We are hearing that the principal problem is the lack of drivers but I find it quite confusing. When I met Go-Ahead Ireland in April, I was told that the problem at that point was a lack of drivers. We have been told today that it has 45 vacancies but it will have solved that problem within four to six weeks. Given that this issue was highlighted in April, why has it not been resolved already if Go-Ahead Ireland's pipeline is moving that quickly? Similarly, Dublin Bus has said that it can have 25 people a month getting through its driver school. It has 150 vacancies. In the eleventh month of 2022, you would expect that these problems would be resolved. Like Deputy Duncan Smith, I wonder if this is a problem of driver retention rather than driver acquisition. What is the turnover in drivers in Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead Ireland this year compared with what it was prior to Covid? I am tight on time so I would just like the figure for 2022 for both companies.

Essentially, the Deputy is looking for the number of bus drivers who have left both companies. We will start with Go-Ahead Ireland.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

The figure in question is 25%.

And at Dublin Bus?

Ms Andrea Keane

It would be a lot lower. We have lost about 60 drivers from our total panel of about 2,800. I need to clarify that we would always lose around 70 drivers a year who would naturally retire but we have had 60 resignations.

What is that as a percentage?

Ms Andrea Keane

Roughly 3%.

Go-Ahead Ireland is at 25% which is very high for a company. A good turnover rate is 10%. Is it losing staff to Dublin Bus? Is it training up staff and losing them to Dublin Bus?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

We do not train up staff to lose to Dublin Bus. Naturally in a bus industry, as you see across the whole world, people will move between operators.

How many people from this 25%, which is a significant number, are moving to Dublin Bus? What is being raised with me is that staff conditions and pay at Go-Ahead Ireland are an issue. I do not know if that is the case but if it is training staff and they are moving to Dublin Bus, it would indicate that there is an issue there. How many staff is Go-Ahead Ireland losing to Dublin Bus?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

I do not have that figure to hand.

Could Mr. Edwards get it for me? The fact that retention of drivers is the key problem for Go-Ahead Ireland, but these statistics are not at Mr. Edwards's fingertips coming into a committee, is quite worrying. I would be interested in hearing that figure.

What is the actual number of staff lost from Go-Ahead Ireland? The percentage is 25%, but how many is that?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

We would have to come back with that number.

What is the total number of drivers?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Our total number is 500 so it would be somewhere in the region of 100 drivers.

So Go-Ahead Ireland is losing more drivers than Dublin Bus per annum.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

That is correct. We have put in place measures to improve our retention levels.

Go-Ahead Ireland has roughly a quarter of the total number of Dublin Bus drivers, which is 3,000. Go-Ahead Ireland has 500 drivers, which is even less than 25%. It has about 20% of the number of bus drivers that Dublin Bus has. Is that a very high turnover rate?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

It is, and we are taking measures to address it.

Why is it so high?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

There have been some societal changes. People are looking for different roles. There has been some drift back to what people would traditionally have done.

Is Go-Ahead Ireland losing them to Dublin Bus? If they are going from one bus company to another, that would be a clear indicator that conditions are driving this movement of staff. If they are driving roughly the same routes in the same area and can still live in the Dublin area, one would assume that to be the case. Is that something that Go-Ahead Ireland is seeing?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

We would lose some to Dublin Bus. We are not sure of the exact numbers because we cannot do exit interviews for everyone. We are losing a number to Dublin Bus.

Is Dublin Bus losing any drivers to Go-Ahead Ireland?

Ms Andrea Keane

We would lose a small number. We do an exit interview with any staff member who is willing to do one. It has not been highlighted as a significant issue but I could not say that no driver has transferred. I want to be clear with the committee. I would not have a precise number.

I want to raise some specific things.

Be quick.

Every autumn we have a problem with the 84X. When it is coming from Dublin, it fills with passengers who get off in Dublin. Passengers who need to get off in Wicklow cannot get on the bus. Every year this is raised and resolved because additional services are added. I have been already been on to Dublin Bus to ask.

Ms Andrea Keane

That is correct, yes.

The NTA needs to approve it. Is it something that the NTA will approve? This should happen as standard. It should not require public representatives and the public to raise it every autumn. It should happen as standard. Will the NTA approve that?

Ms Anne Graham

There is no issue from a funding perspective. I am not sure if Dublin Bus is in a position to deliver that because of the driver shortage. If there is no impact on other services, which could be associated with an additional resource going in now given the shortage of drivers, there is no issue from a funding perspective.

Ms Andrea Keane

It is something we are looking at and will follow up. We have received correspondence.

Deputy Whitmore, I am conscious that we have to be fair.

I am very conscious that the Chairman had an opportunity in my five minutes as well.

You are all taking liberties and I am being very good to you.

There are issues with the 65 bus to west Wicklow. Ideally, that would be expanded. Can Dublin Bus consider that it would go beyond Blessington down to Baltinglass because that would provide a very valuable service to those in west Wicklow? Is that something Dublin Bus will review for me?

Mr. Ciarán Rogan

We will look at it and get back to the Deputy.

I will cut out a lot of my questions given the shortness of the time. The G spine is something that I want to focus on. I have been working on this with Ms Lauren Tuite who is a Green Party representative in the area. It promised an improvement of about 20% for Ballyfermot and Cherry Orchard. We have seen the same problems that everyone has highlighted: a decline in service, ghost buses and full buses driving past bus stops. We have talked a lot about the lack of drivers but I want to dig more into the running times of the routes. I understand that drivers say now, and had warned before, that running times were inadequate. That leads to poor service and also indicates poor planning. One knock-on is that services are being redirected so that a bus will bypass a large chunk of its route, or will bypass Ballyfermot, so that it can be on time at the G spine terminus in Spencer Dock. That leads to ghost buses and the RTPI being inaccurate. All the problems we are discussing are deeper than just a lack of drivers. How are the running times calculated? Who decides them and how? What feeds into them? Were the drivers, the people who actually know these routes, consulted? If things like congestion are impacting on running times, what can be done now to improve bus priority? If running times are too short, are we adequately accounting for driver welfare when we come up with these running times? Are we giving the drivers enough time at the end to find a toilet and to stretch their legs? We know that sitting for too long is a problem. Is driver welfare adequately factored into the running times?

Mr. Tim Gaston

The G spines are combinations of bits of routes lifted from other routes. The timings were done from end to end, from Red Cow through to the docklands, by taking sections from existing AVL equipment, which we spoke about earlier. The initial plan will be set out and a timetable developed based on what we believe the running times to be. As I said earlier, one of our biggest challenges is that there is about a six-month lead time between when you have to do that detailed planning and when you actually implement the system. We were doing that planning very much in conjunction with Dublin Bus. We were looking at what we believed to be the running times. The running time includes the driver welfare period, the layover at the terminus and a period of time to allow catch-up if there is a problem on the route or congestion, etc. All of that is put together and that goes through a couple of iterations between ourselves and Dublin Bus to produce the files that eventually have to go into the RTPI system and the Dublin Bus rostering system. Dublin Bus then sits down and rosters the drivers and vehicles to match that and eventually there is a schedule that it can go live with.

In the case of the G spine, because we were running on alignments that buses had not previously run from one end to the other, we did not get it exactly right. Most of the running times for most of the day are actually fine. When I say the running times are out, it is clearly in the peak when you have congestion. That is the bit that is very difficult to predict. We do not know what time it is going to take to get through heavy traffic when you are planning in March and looking ahead to October or November. We have a better feel for it now that it is running and we can do several levels of fixes.

The first one was a relatively quick piece that Dublin Bus is currently implementing to put in longer running times, but there is a much longer piece that needs to be done in conjunction with Dublin City Council to see what can be done on the ground as well to improve the pinch points. Early in the new year we will probably have a more comprehensive awareness of exactly what is happening on that route; where there are issues, not just on that route but all of the routes – the three routes on the G spine and the other 60; and a revised scheduling time to be agreed. By that stage, we believe Dublin Bus will have the drivers and we hope to have the vehicles to put in the additional capacity. It is clear that the running times are too short and we need more drivers and more vehicles. That is the process we are working through currently. That is the process we worked through with the other spines and we know that it will deliver the sort of gradual improvement so that we will get to the point where-----

Mr. Gaston mentioned earlier that there were problems with the running times on the C spine, but it was the opposite, in that they were too long. It seems to me that there is a problem with how these running times are calculated. Is the NTA looking at reforming or improving that process?

I agree with some of the comments made by Deputy Bríd Smith, in particular when we see the messiness around setting the running times, recruiting the drivers, providing the buses and then it goes back to someone else to set the timetable. It is no wonder that mistakes are being made when there are two or three agencies trying to resolve the problem. Will the NTA push ahead with the roll-out of the spines without the core bus corridors facilitating the spines to run smoothly? That was a questionable decision. Will the NTA be looking at improving the running time and consulting more with the drivers who are perhaps the experts on running times because they are the ones driving the buses?

Mr. Tim Gaston

It is a tried and tested method that we have used on other spines that were introduced previously. We have just carried out a detailed review of the C-spine and if members wish, we can make it available to the committee in the not-too-distant future so that they can see how we go back and review. That is the learning process. We are always learning in this situation.

On whether it is unusual to have an authority providing a schedule to a bus operator, "No", that is the tried and tested way to handle bus services. We are not doing anything different in Dublin from what is done around the world.

Thank you, Chair, for giving me the opportunity to convey some of the frustrations and concerns of the residents of Dublin 15. I heard some of the commentary whereby the witnesses would not describe this as a crisis, but it is very much one for the people whom I meet who are missing essential medical appointments, those who are essential workers or those who are consistently late for school, college and work. It has been brewing for at least six months.

I will focus today on two local services about which I wrote this month to the NTA. The witnesses should believe me when I say it does not reflect the number of emails and representations that I receive about the other routes in the area. As it happens, one is provided by Dublin Bus and the other by Go-Ahead. I will start with Go-Ahead. The L52 was introduced in November 2021 under BusConnects. It was changed from the 239 from Blanchardstown shopping centre to Adamstown station. It is a local route. We have heard about how the patterns have changed, as people are making more journeys locally and there is more demand. It is a bus that is only hourly, yet it is not showing up. There are essential workers along the route. I will mention one in Westmanstown - Marymount Care Centre, which is a nursing home. The workers work 12-hour shifts at night and they come off their shift and wait for the local bus, which does not turn up. I see them with my own eyes every day. It states in the response that Go-Ahead would try to minimise the impact on low-frequency routes and try to prevent the first and last buses of the first day being missed. Go-Ahead is failing with that, and it has been happening since November 2021. It must change. I do not know if Go-Ahead is aware of the pressures private nursing homes are under at the moment. There is an article in the newspapers today which refers to inflation, finding accommodation for staff and that they cannot offer the same remuneration packages as the HSE.

Nursing home staff cannot get a bus home after a 12-hour shift looking after our most vulnerable people. This is not the first time I have mentioned it.

I will move on to Dublin Bus. These are issues that are happening in Tyrrelstown on the 38 and 39A on the M4. There are no-shows, delays, buses turning up full, buses arriving in threes, or buses cancelled at the last minute. In the morning there are not enough buses. If you go on Twitter and follow #DB70, you will see the consistent complaints from people missing their buses. Dublin Bus has a target of 98% of buses arriving within three minutes. What about Go-Ahead's targets in that regard? I have seen the fines that are being paid. Dublin Bus paid €1.5 million in fines and Go-Ahead paid €850,000.

Senator Currie should ask a question. Her time is up.

How many routes does Go-Ahead have in comparison with Dublin Bus? How many routes are involved in the €1.5 million paid by Dublin Bus and the €850,000 paid by Go-Ahead? The NTA agreed to meet with Go-Ahead about the L52. Has that happened?

Does Senator Currie have a question?

I have asked two.

There were five minutes, and the time is up. We are way over time. Who does she want to direct her question to?

I asked two questions and my final question is for Go-Ahead about its fines. Has the NTA met Go-Ahead about the fines? What is Go-Ahead going to do about Dublin 15?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

I am responsible for this and I can only apologise for the poor service that the residents - our customers - have been receiving on the L52. To answer the question on punctuality and reliability, we are required to run 98% of services within the contract and they must be within no more than five minutes, 59 seconds late, and no more than one minute early.

On the question of meeting with the NTA on the L52, we are talking to the NTA about many of our routes. Right now we are in a big recruitment drive and we are seeing an improvement week on week for reliability. If we continue on that trajectory, by January we will be running all of our services in the way they were running before we came across problems with driver shortage.

What about the NTA? How is it going to fix Dublin 15?

Ms Anne Graham

BusConnects is what will fix the services in Dublin 15 and in the whole of the city.

It has not fixed the L52.

Ms Anne Graham

We outlined particular issues today regarding the L52. Senator Currie mentioned that the service has not been reliable since November 2021. We are forgetting that we have gone through a global pandemic. There were two periods of Covid during that time from when Go-Ahead started to operate. It had driver absences associated with Covid and that had an impact on services. We have said that right through the pandemic. Now we are through that and we still have issues associated with driver availability.

What about reliability?

Senator Currie is going to be fined by the secretariat. I have gone way over time.

I am just going to make one point. We have been on the journey with the NTA. We met about those concerns at the time. It was said that there was not the same amount of traffic on the roads, so the buses were coming faster and arriving earlier, which is why they were not showing up. We have heard those reasons and we have heard about recruitment. We are encountering a different set of challenges and we must get it sorted out. The Dublin Airport Authority, DAA, has been before the committee talking about its challenges in regard to transport and recruitment.

Ms Anne Graham

We have outlined how we and the operators are going to meet those challenges. We have also outlined that we will see improvements throughout the services in the next-----

If Senator Currie wants to follow up with the NTA on this, are the witnesses willing to meet with her?

Ms Anne Graham

We will deal with any correspondence. There is already correspondence on the issue we have to address and respond to.

My problem is that once we go over two or three hours there are serious issues for us as a committee. I am conscious of this.

I will be very brief. It is about an issue pertaining to my constituency in Clare. It is about a bus stop in Manus, which is a rural destination outside the village of Clarecastle. I have written to Ms Graham about it. I had been in touch with Stephen Kent, the CEO of Bus Éireann. This particular stop had been in place for at least 50 years to the best of my knowledge. I have received volumes of emails, calls and text messages from people who are concerned. They want the bus stop back. I would like the NTA to do everything in its power to ensure this happens as soon as possible. It is discommoding young and old people. One person who has epilepsy relies on the connection for his daily life. It is important that it is reinstated as soon as possible.

Ms Anne Graham

We have just become aware of this particular issue. I only received correspondence about it this week. We will follow up on it. I do not know the circumstances surrounding it. We will respond to the query that has been raised with us.

I thank Ms Graham.

We received correspondence from the Convenience Stories and Newsagents Association, CSNA. The contract for the Leap cards used to work through the Payzone network. It has now gone to An Post and PostPoint. It appears from the terms that the commission they earn has been dramatically reduced. What view does the NTA have on this? The CEO of the CSNA Vincent Jennings has written to the NTA. Where does it stand on this?

Ms Anne Graham

I cannot respond in detail on this. I am happy to respond to the committee. I presume the letter we received is the same as that directed to the Chair. As soon as we have formulated a response I can copy it to the committee.

I thank Ms Graham. By way of clarification, the figure of €1.5 million was given as net fines for Dublin Bus and the figure for Go-Ahead was given as €885,000. What was the gross figure for fines?

Ms Anne Graham

That was the gross fine for Go-Ahead.

What was the gross fine for Dublin Bus?

Ms Anne Graham

For the first and second quarters of 2022 it was €1.642 million.

A total of €142,000 was a bonus or credit.

Ms Anne Graham

It was €103,000.

Is it fair to say that Go-Ahead would not have the problems it does with recruiting 45 drivers if its rate of loss of drivers was not as high as it is?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

It certainly makes it more challenging. We also had growth this year. We need to recruit for this on top of a high attrition rate.

I am conscious Deputy Boyd Barrett must come in. I will allow him in for two or three minutes. We are over time but I want to be fair.

Why is it so unattractive to be a bus driver? This is the question I have. From everything I hear from bus drivers the root of this is that they have to work, and are increasingly pushed to work, very long unsociable shifts.

Does Deputy Boyd Barrett have questions? We were supposed to leave this room at 2.10 p.m.

I want to be fair. If the Deputy has specific questions he should ask them.

Yes. I just asked one. My very first question was why it is so unattractive to be a bus driver. I am elaborating that question by pointing out that what bus drivers tell me is that it is very unattractive. Those starting out as bus drivers with Dublin Bus receive approximately €6,000 less than other people working there longer.

I want Go-Ahead and Dublin Bus and the NTA to come in.

Is the pressure being put on drivers to do with competition over wages and conditions in the competitive tendering model?

We will let Go-Ahead, Dublin Bus and NTA come in very briefly.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

I do not think it is unattractive to be a bus driver. It has some fantastic perks. The wages across Dublin are very competitive compared to other markets as well and there is considerable reward to being a bus driver.

Why is Go-Ahead Ireland having such trouble recruiting and retaining them?

Please, Deputy. We do not have time for this. We will come back to this. We will bring the witnesses back in again.

I am just trying to get an answer to a very simple question.

I know. I ask Mr. Edwards to respond quickly.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Deputy Boyd Barrett has not been here to hear some of the contributions. We have 100 people waiting to start with us and 90 people in our training school. An awful lot of our colleagues have been with us for years. People are staying with us.

I also ask that the Dublin Bus representatives respond quickly.

Ms Andrea Keane

I do not believe it is unattractive to be a bus driver with Dublin Bus. We are very proud of the retention rate of our drivers. Most drivers will stay with us. Our terms and conditions are very attractive. We have won a number of awards as an employer. We provide great health and safety facilities. As the Deputy will be aware, it is a very heavily-regulated industry with regard to driver hours. We are very conscious of their mental wellbeing-----

Thank you, Ms Keane. We will finish with the National Transport Authority, NTA.

Ms Anne Graham

The challenge is related to the economy. We are effectively at full employment. We are competing across industries for drivers, that is, with the other driving industries such as those for heavy goods vehicles. There is considerable competition in the market for that kind of resource and it is challenging.

We will meet again in the coming weeks when Deputy Boyd Barrett will be welcome to contribute to the committee. My problem is time and going over time. We will come back to these issues. We will probably extend an invite to the representatives very shortly to come back to give us an update. We are conscious of coming into the Christmas period. Our role as a committee is to assist in any way possible. We will probably follow up with the representatives. Will they give us an indication as to the additional resources they require, in any form, for the service to be more efficient? I thank Ms Graham, Ms Keane, Mr. Edwards and their colleagues for assisting the committee in this important matter.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.20 p.m. sine die.
Barr
Roinn