Joint Committee on Transport and Communications díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 29 Nov 2022

Motorway Toll Charges: Transport Infrastructure Ireland

Chairman

Apologies have been received from Deputy Matthews and Senator Craughwell.

The purpose of today's meeting is for the joint committee to discuss the reported increase in motor toll charges from January 2023. Events today have overtaken us in that regard and we await to hear the views of Mr. Walsh and his colleagues. Perhaps we will get an update from the perspective of Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, in respect of its tolls and the public private partnership, PPP, tolls.

We are joined by Mr. Peter Walsh, CEO of TII, along with his colleagues, Mr. Pat Maher, director of network management, and Mr. Cathal Masterson, director of commercial operations. They are very welcome and I thank them for coming in at relatively short notice. This is an important issue for the public.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

May I make a comment? I compliment the Chairman on the alacrity with which he arranged this meeting. It is an important issue and it highlights the importance of our committee system. The Chairman should take a bow for what he has done.

Chairman

I thank Senator Buttimer. Members collectively wanted to proceed with this issue. We look forward to an engaging session with Mr. Walsh and his colleagues.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person on entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in regard to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her or identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. Reluctantly, I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will reluctantly be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I would ask any member partaking via Microsoft Teams prior to making a contribution to confirm they are within the confines of the Leinster House complex.

Those attending in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I invite Mr. Walsh to make his opening statement on behalf of TII. We received an opening statement from Mr. Walsh but that statement will have to be updated in light of today's events. When he is delivering his opening statement, I ask him to make reference to that point. It will come up during questioning, but if Mr. Walsh would like to make reference to the Government's announcement that charges are being deferred to next July, we would welcome it.

In the context that you may wish to do it as part of the opening statement, we very much welcome that. Obviously in the questioning from members, we will be bringing it up.

Mr. Peter Walsh

The Department of Transport has been instructed by the Minister to engage with us to explore the possibility of a deferral of increases in the toll charges until 1 July 2023. That is the process we are engaging in at the moment. I believe the opening statement is still valid and I would like to share that.

Chairman

The witness has referred to exploring the possibility. That seems to be a qualified statement. Does it mean that we may not see deferral of charges to 1 July?

Mr. Peter Walsh

It is the statement that was given to me by the Department of Transport.

Chairman

When did the witness receive that statement?

Mr. Peter Walsh

This afternoon. It was a press release from the Department. When the committee hears the opening statement there may be a better understanding of the level of uncertainty there still is around the issue. That is not to say that we may not have high levels of co-operation. I know my colleagues have been engaging with our counterparts and can give an update on that afterwards. For the record, I would like to go through the opening statement because it is still pertinent and still applies.

Chairman

No, it is still pertinent but the witness threw it down. This issue is very current, the public is very engaged with this issue, and rightly so with the cost of living issue. We need to find out the true substance of the announcement today, which a welcome one. Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, is the authority charged with approving these toll increases so we will get down to that level of detail. The witness has received communications from the Department of Transport which says "to explore the possibility". Am I correct in saying that it is not an instruction?

Mr. Peter Walsh

It is not an instruction but we act on initiatives the Department asks us to act on. Until such time as there is definition around what is achievable and exactly what is involved, I do not expect that the Department would be in a position to give us a clear instruction. The Department will need to know the parameters of what it is dealing with and we will only know that after negotiation.

Chairman

How long will that take?

Mr. Peter Walsh

That is the big question. We can see the----

Chairman

Christmas bells are already ringing.

Mr. Peter Walsh

They are indeed.

Chairman

This is a huge issue. It is coming down the tracks fast on 1 January 2023 based on what has been proposed. The public is entitled to clarity on this issue. We will explore this issue with the members, so the witness can proceed.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Will Mr. Walsh address the issue of the level of uncertainty in his presentation?

Chairman

I indicated that initially. I would expect that and Mr. Walsh would expect it. This is a matter that we as a committee will explore in great depth.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I have set out in the opening statement the facts around the matter. We can then outline the process that we have commenced today and give some idea of what we expect to happen. However, we cannot be definitive because it is not a negotiation, it is a discussion. I need to be clear on that.

Chairman

The public is under the impression that this is a certain deferral to 1 July. That is the impression the public has. We as a committee will be exploring that with Mr. Walsh. When the announcement was made on Thursday, my colleagues were in touch with me. I emailed them to say that it is something that we would like to address. Everyone was in agreement and that is why we proceeded. In fairness, the witnesses acquiesced to our request quickly. A lot has happened since and particularly today, and we want to do everything in real time for the public. Mr. Walsh may proceed with the opening statement.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I thank the committee for the invitation to attend today. I am joined by my colleagues Mr. Cathal Masterson, director of commercial operations and Mr. Pat Maher, director of network management. I understand that the committee wishes to discuss the reported increase in motorway toll charges from January 2023. To assist in this discussion, I will provide some legislative and contractual context; explain why toll charges are rising; explain what toll revenue is used for; outline the consequences of deferring toll charge increases and describe TII’s engagement with the Department of Transport in relation to tolls.

On legislation and contractual context, the National Roads Authority,NRA, operating as TII since 2015, was established under the Roads Act,1993. It is the general duty of the authority to secure the provision of a safe and efficient network of national roads having regard to the needs of all users. Under Part 5 of the Roads Act,1993, TII is assigned powers and obligations in relation to the making of toll schemes. Under regulation 15 of the Roads Regulations, 1994, moneys accruing to the authority under the Act shall be applied for the purposes of its functions under the Act or otherwise in relation to the construction and maintenance of national roads.

There are ten toll roads situated on the national road network. Of those, two are public tolls, the M50 eFlow and Dublin Port Tunnel as the toll revenues are collected directly for TII as a public authority. These public toll revenues are invested by TII in the operation and maintenance of the national road network. The other eight toll roads are public private partnership, PPP, toll roads. The creation of PPP toll road contracts was a Government policy initiative. In 1999, the Government decided to adopt a PPP approach to fund public capital projects. In the National Development Plan 2000-2006, the Government set a minimum indicative target of €1.27 billion for private sector investment into national road projects. The use of PPP contracts was identified as an essential component in contributing to the financing and delivery of the national road improvements. The NDP stipulated that funding structures, including road user tolls, where appropriate, were to be examined.

The Government established a central public private partnership unit in the Department of Finance at the beginning of 1999, to lead, drive and co-ordinate the process and in mid-1999 the Government established a Cabinet Committee on Infrastructural Development, including public private partnership. The Cabinet Committee focused initially on transport, notably the core inter-urban road network. In response to these policy decisions, TII established a PPP unit and developed a bundle of eight toll concession PPP contracts which, following competitive tendering, were entered into during the period 2003 to 2007. In total, €1.75 billion of private finance was raised by the PPP companies and used to fund the construction, operation and maintenance of these PPP road projects.

TII’s eight PPP toll concession contracts have contract durations of 30 years for six of them, 35 years for one of them and 45 years for the remaining one. During those years, the PPP company must construct, operate and maintain the road. At the end of the period the road must be handed back with a minimum residual life. The minimum residual life varies for different elements of the asset but, for example, for pavement it is ten years. The payments relating to these services are strictly controlled by the contract conditions. Revenue from index-linked tolls is a core element of these contracts.

Why are toll charges rising? After a decade of little or no inflation we are now in a period of high inflation. I reported to this committee, on 6 April this year, on the impact that high inflation rates are having on construction contracts. Toll charges are set relative to inflation. The by-laws for toll roads provide for toll charges to be reviewed annually. The method for calculating toll charges is set out in the by-laws for each toll road. The maximum toll is calculated by indexing the base tolls, which are set out in the relevant by-laws, by the consumer price index ,CPI, applicable in August of the preceding year. The calculated amount is then rounded up or down. The actual toll charges cannot be more than the maximum toll levels. In relation to the eight PPP toll concession contracts, the PPP companies submit their toll charge calculations annually to TII as part of their annual toll plans as provided for in the PPP contracts. This normally occurs in September or October. TII then reviews these submissions and the associated calculations and, in accordance with the contract conditions, where the calculations are in accordance with the by-laws, TII cannot unreasonably withhold or delay approval of the proposed revised tolls. TII does not have the right to prevent the PPP company from raising the toll charges where their submissions are in accordance with the by-laws.

Regarding the M50 eFlow toll, it is a matter for the TII board to determine the toll charges subject to not exceeding the maximum tolls. TII’s practice has generally been to set the applicable tolls at the maximum levels in accordance with the by-laws, as the revenues collected contribute to the operation and maintenance of the national road network. On the Dublin tunnel toll, it is also a matter for the TII board to determine toll charges, subject to not exceeding the maximum tolls. The toll arrangements for the Dublin tunnel were first established for demand management, that is, to ensure non-HGV traffic would not interfere with the ability of Dublin Port tunnel to meet its primary objective of providing a high-quality access route for HGVs to Dublin Port. Its second purpose was to generate revenue to support the operation and maintenance of the asset. Therefore, the board of TII, in determining toll rates, considers both the levels of traffic and congestion at the tunnel and the financial issues in determining appropriate charges. At its October meeting, the TII board accepted the management recommendation that 2022 toll rates are sufficient to prevent downstream congestion and should remain unchanged for 2023.

TII receives approximately €200 million annually from the two public tolls and revenue share from PPP toll concessions. This revenue is used to fund asset renewal, operation and maintenance of the national road network. The 5,300 km of the national road network is essential to the economic and social life of the country. The network has an asset value of €31 billion as assessed in 2019. The asset renewal, operation and maintenance of the network requires approximately €600 million annually. The Department of Transport provides the balancing €400 million from general taxation. This represents 2% of asset value and is barely adequate to maintain asset value. The toll revenue of the eight PPP concessions is used to repay the loans raised to fund the construction, and the PPPs' operation and maintenance of the 300 km of motorway and dual carriageway. The senior debt outstanding at 31 December 2021 was approximately €730 million. The PPP companies employ approximately 250 people in the eight PPP toll schemes.

TII does not have the right to unilaterally change the basis on which PPP toll rates are revised, and therefore any proposed change would have to be the subject of negotiation. From TII’s experience, PPP companies would not enter into detailed discussions without first engaging legal and financial advisers, which their lenders would likely insist on. Negotiations of this kind would take many months, if not years, to conclude successfully. Any proposed change to the terms of the PPP toll concession contracts that would freeze toll rates would change the public-private risk transfer, as it could be said to impact on traffic demand. This change in risk would first need to be assessed by the National Development Finance Agency, NDFA, Central Statistics Office, CSO, and possibly EUROSTAT. TII’s PPP toll concession contracts are currently treated as off-balance sheet. For a PPP concession to be recorded as off government balance sheet, the majority of the risks and rewards have to be borne by the private partner. If the proposed changes impact on the demand risk that is currently being carried by the private sector, this may have an impact on statistical treatment. In the event that a freezing of toll charges is agreed, the contractual entitlement to the index linking of toll charges would still exist. If inflation continues to rise, this will result in the rebalancing of, and, consequentially, larger increases to, toll charges in January 2024. Any freezing of toll charges would also reduce the amount of money TII receives under the revenue share mechanism of the PPP contracts. Freezing the public M50 eFlow charges at 2022 levels would result in a forecast revenue reduction of approximately €13m. That reduction would have to be made up from general taxation as the costs of asset renewal, operation and maintenance of the national road network is subject to cost increases caused by inflation.

TII and the Department of Transport are in regular communication on a wide range of issues. On the specific matter of toll charge increases, indications that there would be increases, as a consequence of high inflation rates, were communicated in late July. Details of how a range of possible inflation rates would affect toll charges were sought by the Department and provided by TII on 1 September. The August consumer price index, CPI, of 8.6% for the 12 months to August 2022 was published on 12 September. This CPI is the contractually relevant inflation rate for toll charges. This allowed the PPP toll concession companies to complete their toll charge calculations as part of their annual toll plans. The forecast of the funding that TII would receive from tolls during 2023 was communicated to the Department of Transport at the end of September. Following the 25 October meeting of the TII board, at which the 2023 toll charges were set, an information note detailing the 2023 toll charges was provided to the Department on 7 November.

That concludes my opening statement. My colleagues and I will endeavour to answer any questions members of the committee may have.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I thank Mr. Walsh for his comprehensive opening statement. He specifically makes a point concerning the overall low level of funding for roads maintenance, and roads maintenance is a huge issue right across the Twenty-six Counties. Is it €600 million that represents 2% of asset value, or is it €400 million?

Mr. Peter Walsh

It is €600 million.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

How does that compare internationally? What would be usual internationally?

Mr. Peter Walsh

We believe a figure in the order of 3% is an ideal figure to have available.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Mr. Walsh also makes the point that TII's practice has generally been to set the applicable toll at the maximum level. There is almost an incentive there because of the nature of the funding model. People will be surprised to hear that so much of the national roads maintenance comes from the M50 toll. Does that affect the TII's decision? I assume it does.

Mr. Peter Walsh

It does. I should explain this maximum toll figure. I have heard mention in media reports of the maximum toll figure that suggests it is possibly being misunderstood. It is the limit beyond which the toll cannot be charged.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I get that point.

Mr. Peter Walsh

It is a protection to the taxpayer. The reason TII chooses to set the toll at the maximum is because we need the money for the operation and maintenance of the national road network. We have been given that mechanism by Government to raise money. If we do not avail of it and get that money from the toll, it would seem a bit disingenuous to be coming back to Government looking for money.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

TII receives approximately €200 million annually from the two public tolls and the revenue share. Is there a breakdown of that €200 million between the M50, the port tunnel and the PPPs?

Mr. Peter Walsh

We do, and my colleague can look it up. I was rounding to €200 million.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

It is just to give us a sense of the type of breakdown.

Chairman

That is the total income you would get from all the tolls.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Correct, including the revenue share from the PPPs.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Is the revenue share contracted in the development of these PPP roads?

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes, but it is dependent on the traffic levels. For 2020 and 2021, because the traffic levels were way down, it was very little.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

The forecast next year is about €180 million for the M50. It is about €20 million for the Dublin tunnel. The revenue share from two PPP roads is about €10 million. We have more exact figures but they are the rough figures.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Why is there not a revenue share on the other six PPP roads?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

The way the revenue share mechanism works in the PPP contracts is that, as and when they breach a certain threshold, they are obliged to share revenue.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Is this the access?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

It is a measure designed to avoid the roads making super profits, so it is determined if they hit a level.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Okay. It is the M4 and the M1. Is that right?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

They are the two most successful roads.

Chairman

What is the breakdown between the M4 and the M1?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

I think the M1 is higher but I have to check the numbers.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

There is an argument that the PPP model is not a good one. There are arguments in its favour, including that it is off-balance sheet and becomes the responsibility of the private sector. However, the other perspective is that we pay more in the long term and there are significant returns. No one will argue against funding the essential maintenance of our road network. Debt repayment is an obligation, but many of these companies report significant healthy profits on an annual basis. Does the TII know how much essential maintenance and debt repayment cost and how much shareholders receive in dividends?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

They report to us regularly, especially about the level of outstanding debt because there is a requirement for TII to report that via the Department of Transport to the CSO and to Europe. The level of debt being held there is monitored. We also receive their financial reports every year so we also have access to that material. Some roads do better than others. The Deputy has probably seen the figures. The annual accounts stated that last year four of the roads made a profit and four did not.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Okay.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

I will return to the revenue share estimation. On the M1 toll road, to the end of the term of the contract, we estimate revenue share that is payment to the State via TII will be between €39 million and €57 million. The M4 is significantly in excess of that. It could range between €110 million and €131 million.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

That is on the M4.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

Yes.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Will Mr. Masterson speak to the point of the cost of a PPP versus the cost of the State managing these projects? People are frustrated with having to pay tolls and there are geographical variations. My family in Kells pays two tolls and as many people must, those going from north Meath to south Dublin will pay six tolls on a daily basis. It is a significant cost.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

It is a fair question and one that is asked quite often. When those schemes are brought forward we are obliged to test them from a value-for-money perspective. There are four value-for-money tests, which means we have to test the scheme delivered through a PPP mechanism, where the PPP contractor will borrow to construct, operate and maintain the scheme and pay the cost of financing, versus the more traditional design-and-build model. It has to be tested through each of the phases and it passes the test for all our schemes in demonstrating value for money. That is perhaps a complicated explanation for the public. If the role were to be carried out in the traditional way we believe, through those tests and that quantification, it would be less beneficial to the taxpayer.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I reiterate that it was a policy decision that private finance was needed for the construction of the NDP aspirations on road infrastructure. It was carried out by TII in line with Government requirements.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I am not suggesting otherwise.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Post-project reviews are published on each of the schemes, so a detailed analysis and a look back on their performance is available.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

The M50 has not been a good experience for the Irish taxpayer.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I beg to differ, because of the traffic it carries. It is an essential element of the road infrastructure. More than €100 billion worth of goods passes over the M50 every day.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

How many times has it been paid for?

Mr. Peter Walsh

I do not understand the question.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

How much did it cost to build? How much were the builders paid and how much is being paid on a daily basis? It was bought out in 2010 for €1.15 billion. Is that correct?

Mr. Peter Walsh

I do not have the numbers to hand. I can certainly come back with them but the value of the M50 to the Irish economy is huge.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

No one is arguing that point.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Sorry, I-----

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I refer to the cost of building it. It is made of physical materials and is maintained with physical materials and labour. It has been paid for and a return has been made by the people who built it over a number of years. The State then bought it out at significant expense and taxpayers continue to pay into it through tolls on a daily basis.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

The demand management element of the toll------

Mr. Peter Walsh

The Deputy is correct that there was a buy-out of the original West-Link Bridge concession, which was completed in 2020. With respect to the money borrowed for construction, it is bought and paid for. The M50 upgrade that was concluded in 2010 is a separate scheme and cost the Exchequer in the region of €1 billion. That is a separate PPP scheme we continue to fund and a significant amount of debt is outstanding on that. Sometimes the two schemes get conflated but they are separate.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

The Minister of State said in the Dáil Chamber a few minutes ago that she can confirm the Department of Transport has been directed to develop options that might allow for the suspension of planned toll increases until the end of June 2023. However, she noted that the toll contracts are complicated and further discussions with all relevant parties, including TII, are needed. That is a reflection of what the witnesses said. It strikes me from their opening statement they are pointing towards to a complicated set of discussions.

Chairman

I have looked on the website and I cannot see the statement by the Department of Transport Mr. Walsh referred to. Will he pull out what the Department of Transport said to TII about the toll deferral? Our role as a committee is to deal in the facts and to probe all aspects. We want to see what exactly is in the email from the Department. Did it come from the officials in the Department of Transport?

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

We would be further down the road if we had made these decisions on 1 September when this was initially seen. If, as I have picked up from comments made by Ministers and through the media, the Minister for Transport and the Department comes to the TII to say they are providing €12.5 million for the shortfall, can the TII make that happen between now and 1 January?

Mr. Peter Walsh

We would do our level best to do so.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

What does Mr. Walsh mean when he says they will do their level best?

Chairman

Can we locate the communication from the Department? It is important we get accuracy. We have heard from the Minister and we would like to hear what TII has received from the Department because that will provide an indication.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

My colleague is-----

Chairman

We will allow time as it is important we hear precisely what was sent by the Department to TII on this.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I have to leave after this exchange but hopefully I can come back later on. Could the witnesses outline the process?

Chairman

Do you have it there, Mr. Masterson?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

This is the press release our communications director just forwarded on.

Chairman

When was this received?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

I received it just before 7 p.m. but I am not sure when it was sent to Sean O'Neill.

Chairman

It was sent this afternoon then.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

It states that Government leaders met last night to discuss a range of issues including the toll increases planned from January 2023.

Chairman

Is this from the Department of Transport?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

That is correct. The second bullet point states that following that meeting, the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, has directed that officials in the Department of Transport engage with TII to develop options that might allow for the suspension of the planned toll increases until the end of June 2023 and the third bullet point notes these discussions are complex due to the nature of the toll concession contracts. That is the end of it.

Chairman

Is TII engaging formally with the Department at this stage?

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes, we met Department officials this morning and we-----

Chairman

Was this issue flagged at that meeting?

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes. The fact there was a meeting between party leaders last night where it was determined we should explore the possibilities of deferring the-----

Chairman

Is the €12.5 million shortfall an accurate figure?

Mr. Peter Walsh

The number was mentioned but what we are saying is that the cost of the deferral has yet to be determined because that number came from numbers we gave to the Department as our forecast of the revenue that would be generated by the increase in tolls, so I can see how one might think that it would-----

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

More people might use the roads.

Mr. Peter Walsh

There will be-----

Chairman

That is for a six-month period up to the end of June.

Mr. Peter Walsh

A six-month period, yes. There will be costs associated with administration, legal costs and other costs that may arise and we need to cover those also. We do not want to give the impression that we can get this over the line for a specific number. It will also be subject to review determined by the level of traffic because the entitlement depends on how many vehicles go through. We want to make sure there is an understanding of that.

Another element, and the reason I seem to be less definitive than the initial statement was, is that we cannot impose this. The one thing we will not do is open up those contracts and renegotiate or even negotiate them. There is precedence where toll companies have agreed, by agreement, to an arrangement. Previously, I think in 2013, there was a one-month moratorium of heavy goods vehicle charges on four toll plazas. It is possible to do something of a similar nature and I can hand over to Mr. Masterson who has been in touch with the PPP companies today, so some progress has been made. This came from a meeting last night and we heard about it at 10 a.m. and we-----

Chairman

Is there an agreement in principle between the Department of Transport, the Minister for Transport and TII that there will be a deferral until 1 July?

Mr. Peter Walsh

They have asked us to develop detailed proposals and-----

Chairman

Is that an agreement in principle?

Mr. Peter Walsh -----I would anticipate-----

Chairman

Are we just ironing out the detail of the cost the State will have to cover in terms of the shortfall?

Mr. Peter Walsh

We also need the agreement of eight toll companies. Between the toll concession companies there are eight different contracts. If any one of them does not agree, it is entitled to levy the index-linked toll charges as of 1 January. We are hoping that will not be the case but I do not want to come in and tell the committee that we have this sorted. There are an awful lot of discussions still to go on before that can happen. I do not want to pretend otherwise.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

I could add to that because I know there is time pressure. We have spoken to all the toll roads today-----

Chairman

All of the PPPs?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

All of the PPPs.

Chairman

All eight of them?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

All eight and they have all agreed to commence discussions quickly with a view to getting something agreed as soon as we can. That is positive. All eight will need to get approval from their boards and potentially they may also need lenders' approval. They are going away to investigate that so that could be a hurdle.

Chairman

When does Mr. Masterson expect them to report back?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

In a matter of days. They are willing to work at breakneck speed on that.

Chairman

Has TII given a commitment to the Department of Transport as to when it will come back with the options?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

Again it will be in a matter of days because we first need to talk to the PPP companies to make sure they are happy to engage.

Chairman

Could there be an announcement and a firming up of this in terms of giving absolute clarity to the public that there will be a deferral of any increase until 1 July? Could that be given by the end of this week?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

No, I do not think so.

Chairman

Could it be by the end of next week?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

The dates of the board meetings I heard today were around 15 December or 16 December, after which we could have that approval through from the other side. We have instructed our legal advisers to work on this and develop that agreement today so that is also progress. I do not want to underplay or downplay the lenders' perspective on this. It is our understanding that they should view this favourably. The issue is the time it can take for lenders to engage on something like this so, to be fair to PPP companies, that is not something they or we control but they are going to reach out very quickly on foot of the discussions today to seek to get those discussions started.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Another thing is that our board will meet on 13 December and its approval will be required also but again, I have briefed our chairman today and we do not anticipate any difficulty but I do need to recognise that it is a reserved board function.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

As for the meetings on 15 December and 16 December, which meetings are they?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

I cannot remember exactly because there are eight board meetings. There is a raft of them. Some are earlier than that. There is also a further potential obstacle that we have asked the Department to consider checking and that is with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform on the treatment of PPP schemes and their off-balance sheet treatment.

Chairman

The Dáil is obviously concluding on 17 December. Does it require any legislative measures, statutory instruments or anything like that from the Government?

Mr. Peter Walsh

No, we do not believe so.

Chairman

Of any form?

Mr. Peter Walsh

No.

Chairman

Obviously that is-----

Mr. Cathal Masterson

To conclude the point on Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, it may need to approve this as it could potentially be a change in the risk allocation of the schemes themselves so that-----

Chairman

That week, from Monday, 12 December to Saturday,17 December is effectively more than two weeks away. Is there any way Mr. Masterson could expedite matters because it is of such critical importance and request the bringing forward of the TII board meeting on a single-issue item, and equally ask that the boards of the various public private partnerships would also bring their board meetings forward, because we are right up against Christmas and it is too tight?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

They will accelerate as much as they can and they will not sit on this, Chair. Not after the discussions today. It is not in their interests.

Chairman

The committee will ask that Mr. Masterson would go back-----

Mr. Cathal Masterson

Perhaps the formalities may need to be observed in certain situations and they have to make sure they comply with lenders' requirements but they will not delay this in any manner or means.

Chairman

We will press as a committee that everything be done to bring absolute clarity to this matter. As next Friday week is 11 December, we would ideally like to have clarity by that week. Effectively, it is not quite two weeks but it certainly affords ten days so we ask that minds be brought to bear to give absolute clarity to hard-pressed drivers, ordinary people, businesses and hauliers that this will be in place from 1 January.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

I welcome our witnesses and thank them for being here, In fairness, while I was critical of the increase last week in the Seanad and today, the engagement so far is heartening and the Chair is right that time is of the essence. I raise one note of discord the timing was insensitive and it struck a very wrong note with many hard-pressed motorists.

I ask that TII reflect on that. When speaking to hauliers, bus companies or private motorists, they say that it is a cost-of-living crisis. The decision really rankled with people. I just want to put that into the public domain.

Speaking on behalf of the Irish Road Haulage Association on RTÉ radio - I am not sure if the TII representatives heard the interview - Mr. Eugene Drennan said that within the contract for the toll roads there is also a discount mechanism for volume users, which they have never given to the hauliers and never allowed it. Mr. Drennan said that his association will be seeking a meeting with TII to trash that out.

Is that an accurate comment in terms of the whole issue about volume use and discount to the hauliers who are facing huge costs, as Mr. Walsh will know?

Mr. Peter Walsh

I will defer to my colleague Mr. Masterson who manages the contract, but I do not believe it would be a matter for TII.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

On some of the schemes they are required to offer a prepaid set of journeys, I cannot recall the terminology relating to it. There is a discount on 20 toll journeys. Under the schemes that are obliged to offer that, it will be offered. If they have not offered this to the hauliers, perhaps they could contact us and we could check the position.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

I ask that TII engage with the hauliers on this. On the radio earlier, Mr. Drennan was quite clear in his stance on the issue of the use of the concession that is available to them.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

My understanding is that this offering is not available for tag users. Perhaps this is where the confusion lies. They have to prepay for journeys in order to receive the discount.

Chairman

In the interests of clarity, will Mr. Masterson and TII meet with the hauliers on this matter? Perhaps we could get a commitment tonight that if the road hauliers make request in writing to TII that it meet with them as a matter of priority?

Senator Jerry Buttimer

I propose that TII do that. It is important.

Have the reduced toll fares for electric vehicles commenced? If they have not, where are we in the context of that particular scheme of tagging?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

That scheme has been in play for a couple of years now. TII administer the scheme on behalf of the Department of Transport, in accordance with terms and conditions they have set out and in accordance with the budget they provide to TII to administer the scheme. That is in train. It will be rebranded slightly moving into next year as part of the establishment of Zero Emission Vehicles Ireland, ZEVI, with the Department of Transport. It will be flagged as one of their initiatives.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Has this been communicated to the regular user who has a toll tag on the car and who drives through the toll in Fermoy or Portlaoise, a route on which I travel every day?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

It has been communicated. I am not sure whether it has been communicated directly to each user. While a lot of tag users have availed of it, I know that not all of them have.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Whose responsibility is it to let people know they can avail of it? Is TII responsible?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

The user must opt in and must make contact with the tag provider.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

I ask that TII review this. TII has no idea if the motorist has an electric car. Does TII not get that information? For example, I have a toll tag on my car. If I change my car, I must renew my tag. Is Mr. Masterson saying that I have to opt in?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

I am not entirely clear if all tag providers will have information as to whether a user is driving an electric vehicle or not.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Could we look at the process? In fairness to the toll tag I am a big believer in that. For me, as a motorist, it is a fantastic facility to be able to use. I do not mind paying and I am lucky that I can pay the amount per month, whatever way TII uses to take it out. It is a great system.

We have had the conversation with Deputy O'Rourke and the Chairman. The whole process seems cumbersome. I accept that there are PPPs, differences with roads, etc. I do not know the answer to this question - and I apologise - but in the context of Covid and the reduced number of vehicles on the roads, the toll companies and the PPPs did not necessarily have the volume of traffic to gain revenue. Did they avail of the Covid payment from the Government or did TII?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

We did not.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Does the Senator mean as an employer?

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Obviously, people were off the roads because of Covid. The volume of traffic was reduced and, as a result, the income coming in was significantly reduced. Was any levy or penalty imposed on TII in the context of its PPP contracts with the toll companies?

Chairman

Maybe I can add to that. It is my understanding that the PPP contracts are based on a certain volume of traffic. If that volume is not met, TII makes a balancing payment. It is like the public service application pro forma. During the period of Covid, were the top-up payments from TII much higher than normal in respect of the PPPs?

Mr. Peter Walsh

We should differentiate. Of the eight PPP contracts, only two of them have a sharing of risk around traffic volumes.

Chairman

One of those being the Limerick Tunnel.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Correct.

Chairman

Which is the other one?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

The M3 motorway.

Mr. Peter Walsh

For the other six, the entire risk relating to traffic is borne by the PPP company.

Chairman

Senator Buttimer has posed a valid question. With those other six contracts, when the volume of traffic dropped significantly during Covid, what was the financial arrangement? Was there any change in the arrangement?

Senator Jerry Buttimer

My overarching point is that we are in a crisis. We have the cost-of-living emergency. We have the war in Ukraine, which is having an adverse affect on everything. These are not normal times. I heard Mr. Masterson's comments about the different processes that TII has undertaken, but is there any recognition that these are not normal times?

Mr. Peter Walsh

I am not sure I follow the Senator.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

My point is about flexibility. I understand that in order to get to D, TII must go through B and C, but surely there must be recognition on the part of a PPP companies that we are not in peacetime and that there has to be flexibility on their part. They should not, for example, punish TII or the travelling public.

Chairman

The question is a very good one. In summary, did the PPP companies come to TII looking for an increase at the end of 2021 and this year?

Mr. Peter Walsh

Every year, there is a process of review-----

Chairman

There was no process between 2013 and 2022.

Mr. Peter Walsh

There was. The process was engaged in-----

Chairman

But there was no increase.

Mr. Peter Walsh

There was no increase.

Chairman

Why not?

Mr. Peter Walsh

Because when we did the review on the basis of the CPI, it was found that one was not warranted. It did not cross the threshold.

Chairman

Why is there an increase in the current climate when people are under so much pressure with the cost of living and fuel costs. Surely a red flag was raised or, at the very minimum, an amber light went on to signal that TII should not go ahead with these increases.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

The Chairman has identified the conundrum. After a decade of little or no inflation, we are now in a period of high inflation. That probably affects people who use the roads more than anybody else.

My time is nearly up but I wish to make three points in respect of TII. I thank Mr. Wash, Mr. Maher and Mr. Masterson. We had a conversation about the roadworks at the Dunkettle interchange. I genuinely appreciate that it is probably the biggest road project we will see in Cork during my lifetime. It will be fantastic when it is finished. On communication, I encourage TII to engage with local radio and local media in advertising the changes to those members of the travelling public who use the road. Perhaps TII could increase and enhance the signage as drivers approach the tunnel on each side. This would be a major help. It has improved. This morning I counted four. When I left my house at 7.05 a.m. last week, I got to the tunnel - or the Rochestown Park Hotel - at 7.30 a.m. I got in and out. When I got onto the Dublin Road, it was like the great sea - every car went in a different direction. We have changed the road out through Dunkettle. Now, it is going left to Glanmire and the city, and then coming back to Little Island. The representatives understand what I am saying.

My final point involves an appeal to TII on a purely local matter. I refer to the roundabout at Bishopstown Court on the N40.

There was a promise with Cork City Council and Cork County Council to enhance the roundabout. It is part of the TII's road operation. I appeal to the TII, in the interest of the public realm, to support the work of the Tidy Towns committee in Bishopstown and that a real effort is made to improve the landscape and facade at the roundabout because it leaves a lot to be desired.

I understand my comments are critical about Dunkettle but they are not meant to be. I genuinely appreciate that gargantuan project and the huge benefit it will be in time. To assist the TII, there are a couple of things it should do to assist motorists and the travelling public.

Chairman

Did the amber light not go off that, in the current climate with people under so much pressure financially, bringing through these increases would put a huge burden on the travelling public? That relates to across the entire network, whether it is the M50 or all the other motorway projects, but excluding the tunnel.

Mr. Peter Walsh

In June, inflation was 6.4% and we raised the matter in that context on the basis that it looked like we were going to have toll increases across-----

Chairman

Did the TII raise the matter with the Department?

Mr. Peter Walsh

We raised it with our board and we reported it to the Department as a likelihood.

Chairman

When?

Mr. Peter Walsh

After the July meeting of the board. As the Chairman will know from our appearance before the committee in April, inflation was a significant concern across all of our contracts and activities. We need to honour our contracts, and our toll contracts have within them a consumer price index, CPI, indexation to cover the increasing costs the toll operators are suffering. There are 250 people who work in the toll companies that operate the 300 km of PPP toll concessions. They are people going out, clearing accidents, replacing barriers, replacing signs, surfacing signing, lining and all the rest. They are real people. The increasing costs for the materials, labour and all the rest is being suffered by those companies. The contracts have within them a mechanism to change the toll charge in accordance with the CPI. We would be the very first organisation to hold the PPP concessions to the conditions of contract. We cannot pick and choose but must apply them, which is what we were flagging. We did not mean to imply at any stage that we had discretion in this regard. We do not. The only reason we are going back to talk to the PPP companies at this stage is because the three leaders of the Government parties decided last night that this is a task they had given us to do, and as an agency of the State, of course we will do it.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

It was right, in fairness.

Mr. Peter Walsh

We do not comment on policy. We cannot comment on policy. We carry it out.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

I know that.

Chairman

When the TII went to the Department of Transport in July, did anyone in the Department say or did the Minister say they were concerned about the rates of increase this would give rise to for the people who use the motorway network, both the M50 and all the other PPPs? Did that come up for discussion?

Mr. Peter Walsh

It did not. We had a meeting in August with our new assistant secretary who, having been told this was the way the inflation rate was likely to affect the toll rates, asked for a detailed report on the range of changes that might happen given the possibilities. At that stage we did not know what the August CPI was going to be.

Chairman

Had the TII met any of the Ministers at that point to discuss the issue?

Mr. Peter Walsh

No.

Deputy James O'Connor

I welcome everybody from TII and other bodies. It is great to see them here at such short notice. We are here as a consequence of a failure in our logic and thinking in how we adjust fares and changes in toll fees. The consumer price index is there for a reason. There are times of rapid inflation and there are times when people are under huge financial pressure, and the two of them have come together. There is great saying by Albert Reynolds who said it is the little things that get you. There is a sense of that. It is 20 cent for ordinary car users in terms of what is proposed. I welcome that plans are now in place to defer the increase.

Motoring costs have increased enormously in the past 18 months. The cost of car servicing has gone up hugely as a consequence of a huge shortage in parts. There are massive problems with global distribution, which has been driven on by what happened in the Suez Canal and other areas. In addition, the cost of tyres and a number of other things that cost motorists dearly have dramatically increased. To fill a car with a 60 l tank with diesel used to cost from €75 to €80 but now is about €130. Ordinary motorists are put to the pin of their collar and that is why there has been such a reaction. I know that people, perhaps in positions in the TII, might question why the reaction to increased toll charges was as bad as it was, and I have outlined why, and the increase was on top of other household pressures. I welcome that the increase has been deferred.

I wish to ask a couple of questions to develop an understanding. Does TII derive any income as an organisation from tolls or are all of them farmed out to the PPP operators for the national road network?

Mr. Peter Walsh

There are two public tolls: the M50 eFlow and the Dublin tunnel. There are revenue share mechanisms with the PPP concession contracts but they require that the traffic be above a certain level before the revenue share kicks in.

Deputy James O'Connor

What is that like? I ask because the public at large want to get a better understanding of where their toll money goes.

Mr. Peter Walsh

The money goes to the operation, maintenance and asset renewal of the national road network. We get in the order of €200 million a year out of the two public tolls and the revenue share from the PPPs.

Deputy James O'Connor

I do not expect Mr. Walsh to have the exact figures and I know it would be very unfair of me to ask for them. In 2019, before Covid, roughly what percentage did TII take from the toll incomes generated by road traffic?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

I can give that figure because we might have dealt with it earlier.

Chairman

Yes.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

The revenue from the M50 for next year is roughly €180 million, from the Dublin tunnel it is a further €20 million, and the revenue we forecast from the revenue share of two roads is a further €10 million. Those are round numbers but that is the forecast for 2023.

Deputy James O'Connor

Does the same company operate the Dublin Port tunnel and the M50 barrier-free toll?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

No. They are two separate operators under two separate operations contracts.

Deputy James O'Connor

From my engagement with hauliers, and I know we have talked about this before, they are absolutely fed up with the toll at the port tunnel because they must stop at the barrier every time and keep going, which is difficult when one operates large machines. I am not an expert on this matter and I know that Deputy Murphy will delve into this matter later.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Yes, I will.

Deputy James O'Connor

There are increased costs if one has lorries going in and out of the Dublin Port the whole time. I cannot understand why there has been no effort to remove the barriers on those tolls in the same way as has been done for the M50 where getting through is flawless. The system is so good that if you fail to pay the toll, you will be notified about it a few days later with a photograph of the registration on the vehicle.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I will hand over to Mr. Pat Maher, director of network management, to explain the need for the barrier and the plans to make changes.

Mr. Pat Maher

This issue has been the subject of some discussion, and possibly at this committee in recent times. The explanation for the presence of the barrier and why the tunnel is different from the M50 is because there is a tunnel. We need to maintain a degree of control in terms of our capacity to stop vehicles going into the tunnel in an emergency situation, so we must have the capacity to control access. We are not allowed, for safety reasons, to have standing traffic within the tunnel.

Deputy Murphy made the point last time I was here about the disruption caused to hauliers by virtue of having that barrier come down. What we have at the tunnel is a legacy tolling system. It is there since the tunnel opened in 2006.

Deputy James O'Connor

Can I pause Mr. Maher as the time is winding down? I just want to get an insight. He is telling me that traffic in the tunnel is not allowed to stop for very obvious reasons.

Mr. Pat Maher

You cannot have static traffic in the tunnel.

Deputy James O'Connor

The point I am arguing is about removing the barriers.

Mr. Pat Maher

If you remove the barriers, then you do not have the same capacity to control access in and out of the tunnel. The point I was coming to is that we are in the process of developing an upgraded tolling system. We will be going out over the next year to 18 months, and we will be changing the system. We are happy that it will significantly reduce the degree to which trucks exiting Dublin Port will be subject to stopping at the barrier. It is a more modern and more responsive system. We will be looking to include, insofar as we can, some of the elements that are familiar from the M50. However, we will be retaining barrier control going into the tunnel.

Deputy James O'Connor

I have to ask a couple of other questions, so I will let other members follow up on that. My next question is related to toll upgrades nationally. I find the Portlaoise toll, in particular, exceptionally dangerous. I do not know if other members who use it feel the same. Many people, myself included, have tags on their cars, which are great. However, if you hit the toll at a busy time, not even necessarily peak times, that fast lane is quite dangerous. I have found repeatedly that there is such demand to squeeze into one lane that it is a risk. I know Mr. Maher will refer to his statistics, but I want to tell him that it is not pleasant. Maybe there is an option to put in an additional lane. It would make a world of difference. The majority of road users who are using the toll roads on a regular basis would really welcome that. Many people have adapted to using the tags. They are great. I want to make that point too.

The motorway network is generally maintained to a very high standard. There are very few parts of the existing motorway network across the country that I am going to criticise. I cannot do so. It is one of the few public services in Ireland that is excellent in comparison to what some other countries in Europe have.

Notwithstanding that, the issue of toll charges just hit a chord with people. I think they had enough after what they have gone through. It is regrettable, because effectively the consumer price index was the cause of this. I do not think any person took a decision to up the tolls now. However, I want to make the case that there are areas in tolling that I have a problem with. I ask the witnesses to please address the issue of the Portlaoise toll. I also ask them to do an audit on Rathcormac, because I have received quite a lot of complaints that the fast barrier in Rathcormac is not very responsive to the tags. There might be some issue with the sensors there.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

I support Deputy O'Connor on both of those issues. The sensitivity of the barrier, especially at Rathcormac heading back to Cork, is not great. However, given the volume of cars at Portlaoise, it is actually quite dangerous. I have seen a couple of near misses, and some day something will happen there.

Chairman

I will cover a couple of things for the sake of clarity. The income for next year will be €180 million on the M50. The tunnel will be €20 million. There will be €10 million between the M4 and the M1. Is that correct?

Mr. Peter Walsh

That is our forecast.

Chairman

That is €210 million in total. What were the respective figures pre-Covid in 2019?

Mr. Peter Walsh

I do not have those numbers to hand.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

We are almost at 2019 levels but they would have been slightly less than that. The traffic volumes are almost at 2019 levels on those roads. There was a slight increase in toll charges for 2022. We could come back later with exact numbers, but it would not be a million miles away from that €208 million. It may be around €204 million.

Chairman

The witnesses are bright individuals. They brought in a 10% increase for the M50 for 2022 to 2023 . That is a 30 cent increase for a motor car. Some 10 cent was put on in 2022. Between 2022 and 2023 we are looking at a 40 cent increase, which is 13%.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

If we take a tag as an example, a motor car on the M50 was €2.10 in 2021.

Chairman

I was going with unregistered. Unregistered was €3.10 in 2021. It has gone up to €3.50 in 2023. That is a 40 cent increase. That is a 13% increase between the two years. In one year it has gone from €3.20 to €3.50, which is a 30 cent increase. That is 10%. I expect that when TII saw those figures, it must have been aware that it was a significant increase. The other public private partnerships have gone up from €1.90 for cars in 2021 to €2.10. Another 10 cent has been added for 2023. That is a 5% increase between 2022 and 2023, and it was an 11% increase between the two years. I refer to all the talk of Ukraine, the cost-of-living crisis, people under enormous pressure coming out of Covid, and the cost of living as a serious issue on the ground, particularly with the cost of fuel. Am I correct in saying that the public private partnerships come to the TII on an annual basis looking for an increase?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

Yes.

Chairman

Did it not consider one or two things? The first is not to give them the maximum increase because they can only go to the maximum increase. The second is looking to the State to step in on an ad hoc basis in view of the fact we are in a war-time economic situation with Ukraine. It could have gone to Government at the time and said it was of the view that what was being imposed was too high in the circumstances, and there was a strong argument for support during this period of time so that the CPI-based increase would not be imposed on drivers of motor cars and hauliers, right across the spectrum. It was said that the assistant secretary at the Department of Transport came back in August looking for the range of options. As one of the range of options, did TII put forward one of the range of options being-----

Mr. Peter Walsh

I will correct that. It was not a range of options. It was what was likely to happen across a range of outcomes in terms of the consumer price index. We were saying that inflation was obviously high, but until such time as the published figure came out in September we could not say specifically what it was. The request was to give a range of what the likely outcomes would be. We gave a range from 8.4% up to below 11% and what the impact would be across all of those. That was the figure provided. I will go back to the first part of the question on whether TII should have allowed the PPP companies go to the maximum toll allowed.

Chairman

Does TII have that discretion to say "no"?

Mr. Peter Walsh

No, we do not. I am glad the Chairman gave us the opportunity to clarify that.

Some of the contracts entered into are 35 years in duration. One cannot expect someone to enter into a contract without indexation over that period. Indexation is a fundamental part of the contract. It has been there from 2003, 2004 and 2005, when those contracts started. The notion that we would renege on it or try to go back and renegotiate was never in question. We hold people to their contract conditions and we expect to be held to them in return.

Chairman

When we speak about the maximum increase, is that the correct terminology or is it the increase based on the consumer price index for the previous 12 months?

Mr. Peter Walsh

The maximum is calculated by way of the consumer price index.

Chairman

If the public private partnerships, PPPs, put in for an increase for based on the consumer price index, can TII refuse to agree to that increase with the toll companies?

Mr. Peter Walsh

No, we can not. I will defer to Mr. Masterson on the detail of it. Fundamentally, we cannot withhold approval. The check we do is to ensure they do the sums correctly. If there is any error, we will correct it. If it is done correctly, then we can not withhold approval. We cannot delay approval.

Chairman

The public needs to understand and is entitled to an explanation.

Mr. Peter Walsh

We are happy to give it.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

We receive the toll operating plans for all those PPP schemes in September or October. We run through the calculations in the plans and check them against the index to make sure that the calculations are correct. Then it is a matter for the companies, assuming their calculations are correct, whether they wish to raise the charge to the maximum for the following year. They will all have their own reasons for that. I was talking to the company that manages the Limerick Tunnel seeking to get an agreement over the line. It said its electricity bill for has increased 120%, from €I million to €2.2 million. That is a cost PPP companies are bearing. No relief is being provided by TII for that at all.

Chairman

Between 2019 and 2021 and between this year and next year what has the State paid and what will it pay to the toll company there? That is one of the risk sharing models, is that correct?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

It is. The variable operating payment up to 2021 was €60 million.

Chairman

How much was paid in 2021?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

I think it was €9.7 million

Chairman

How much is it expected to be paid in 2022?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

I will need to check that. I have sums here for the whole contract ranging from €162 million to €187 million.

Chairman

Is that in total? That is a 40 year contract, is that correct?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

Revenue share, which is payment coming back to us, could range between €38 million and €83 million.

Chairman

Is that a 40 year contract?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

It expires in 2041, so it is a 35 year concession.

Chairman

The witnesses said it has defined contracts with the companies. They can come to TII every year to get an increase based on the consumer price index. TII needs to check that is correct with CSO figures. If they are correct, then TII cannot withhold the increase. Is that correct? With what is happening in Ireland and the world with the cost of living crisis, did it occur to anyone in TII to tell the Department that the measure was too severe in the current climate and ask for support for a period of time?

Mr. Peter Walsh

I will speak for myself rather than the authority and the board. I know the board did not take decisions relating to toll charges - really, it was restricted to the M50 eFlow - lightly. From my perspective, our remit and duty as public servants and as an agency of the State is to secure the provision of a safe and efficient network of national roads. The notion that we would go outside of that and concern ourselves with other circumstances that people are having to cope with seems outside of our remit. I cannot see how we can do it.

Chairman

It is within the remit of TII on the M50 and the Dublin Port Tunnel. On the M50, the TII has taken the same CPI increase.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes, we have.

Chairman

Did the TII have discretion not to take that?

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes, we did.

Chairman

In the current environment, particularly with the M50 and the level of traffic using it, did it not occur to TII that what was being imposed was severe, that it had discretion in this area and that it did not have to bring in the increase?

Mr. Peter Walsh

As management, we recommended to the board that it should go to the maximum. I was comfortable with that because we are up on 400,000 trips a day on the M50. We are at saturation levels for quite a number of hours of the day. The mechanism for managing demand on the M50 is the toll and if we were to not avail of that control mechanism and at the time of expanding----

Chairman

Is the witness saying that the increase in the toll was used as a mechanism to reduce the number of cars using the M50?

Mr. Peter Walsh

To reduce the demand on the M50 in order to maintain the functionality of it, yes.

Chairman

Has that always been the policy?

Mr. Peter Walsh

It has always been the requirement. One of the things around the toll schemes is that there is what is referred to as an explanatory----

Chairman

What about people with cars or haulage companies that need to use the M50? They do not have the option to use public transport or cycle. They have to use it. How can the increase be justified on the basis that TII is using it to reduce the level of traffic on the M50? I find that hard to credit.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

Sometimes it is a confusing concept for us to explain. Congestion is a friend of nobody on that corridor. If that corridor is congested, it is worse for everybody. The medicine may not taste very nice but the pricing actually helps preserve capacity.

Chairman

How long has the pricing mechanism been a policy of TII to reduce the traffic?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

It was a requirement of the planning permission for the corridor when that scheme was brought through for the upgrade - I am not referring to the original West-Link, but the upgrade of the corridor which was completed in 2010 - for TII to review and consider protecting the capacity on that corridor for future traffic. Demand management measures were part of that.

Chairman

It was not laid down in the granting of planning that TII would use the cost of tolling as a traffic reduction mechanism.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

Mr. Walsh is just trying to explain what was in our mind when we went to the board to sanction the increase. That was part of the deliberations as well. We are just trying to explain fully what was in our mind at the time.

Chairman

On mature recollection, was it the appropriate decision? In terms of the outcry among the users of the M50 who do so for necessity, not for luxury, do the witnesses now accept that TII has discretion not to increase the toll? I ask the witnesses to reflect on that and recommend withholding of the increase to their board.

Mr. Peter Walsh

The instruction came to the Department of Transport and it has engaged with us to develop options around the deferral of toll increases. We are doing that.

Chairman

However, that deferral is only until the end of June next year.

Mr. Peter Walsh

That is correct.

Chairman

There is a further six months thereafter in 2023.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes, there is. If the notion that the users of the M50 should not bear the costs of that usage is one that is to persist, then the additional funding required to maintain, operate and keep the asset value of the national road network intact will have to come from general taxation.

Chairman

I understand there is no VAT charged on toll charges on the M50.

Mr. Peter Walsh

That is correct.

Chairman

There is €180 million coming into TII and the tunnel is bringing in €20 million. For the PPPs, which account for €10 million, there is VAT charged at 23%. Is that correct?

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes. Mr. Masterson might provide more detail on that.

Chairman

Is it the case that the PPP toll charges are inclusive of VAT at 23%?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

That is correct. The private concessions are subject to VAT, which means there is VAT on their toll rates. There is no VAT charged on public toll rates.

Chairman

We are asking that a decision be made to defer the toll increase for another six months beyond the end of June and that it be made within the next ten days. The decision should certainly be made before 15 December; preferably it should be done by the previous Friday, 9 December. Is Mr. Walsh saying that if there is a further deferral, any shortfall will have to come from the State by way of supports?

Mr. Peter Walsh

There are costs to maintaining and operating the national road network. Those costs are currently met in part by the toll on the M50. If they are not to be met in that way, they will have to be met from general taxation. The State has given TII a mechanism for raising revenue to help meet the costs of operating and maintaining the road network. It is a mechanism we are obliged to use. One can argue about whether it should or should not be used to the maximum levying capacity. We have a second consideration in this which is to do with maintaining functionality. I do not want to give the impression that we do not appreciate the hardship people may be suffering in terms of additional costs, but the obligation on us to use the facilities made available to us by the Oireachtas is one we take seriously. We cannot just decide that we are not going to utilise those facilities in the manner in which they are intended to be used.

Each of the toll schemes have what is called an explanatory statement associated with them, in which the logic of the toll charge is explained. For the toll on the port tunnel, the logic of it was to give access to the port, which is a hugely important facility as our link to the rest of the world for 85% of our imports and exports. The concern there is not to have congestion impeding the passage of heavy goods vehicles. As long as that is happening, there should be no increase. The M50 is different. There is a requirement there to try to control congestion and also to raise revenue.

Chairman

Mr. Walsh will appreciate that if inflation were very low, there would be no increase in the M50 charges.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Equally, our costs in maintaining it would not be increasing. However, they have increased.

Chairman

I have two further points to make. First, the committee asks that TII expedite its engagement with the PPP providers and the Department of Transport in order to arrive at absolute clarity on this issue over the next ten days. Drifting into the week ending 17 December, which is the last sitting day of the Dáil, is far too late.

Second, we will come back to the issue of TII's funding model and the implications, in the current environment, for costs to consumers. Mr. Walsh made the point about what TII is charged to do. However, people are under enormous pressure financially. Toll charges are one of the main issues for daily commuters and the amount involved is not insignificant. For people driving on the M50 on a daily basis, it is costing them €3.50 if their vehicle is untagged. If they are going through the toll both ways, that is €7 a day. If they are doing it five days a week, it is adds up to €35 per week and approximately €140 a month. It is a lot of money. We will come back to this matter. The first six months of next year are covered but the committee will follow up on what happens thereafter. We ask that TII engage on the matter with the Department, the Minister and the Minister of State. Will Mr. Walsh give a commitment that TII will expedite matters in terms of a decision on the question of extending the deferral beyond the first six months of 2023?

Mr. Peter Walsh

We certainly will expedite matters. We do not hang around on things.

Chairman

I appreciate that.

Mr. Peter Walsh

The decision to defer came about from a meeting last night and it came to us by way of a telephone call and then a meeting at 10 a.m. this morning.

Chairman

I accept all of that. However, we are in the countdown to Christmas and there is a need to bring absolute clarity to the matter. We thank Mr. Walsh for TII's very quick engagement with the PPP providers. There was talk of a decision being made on 15, 16 or 17 December. That is too late. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform needs to be aware of the full cost implications. From what we hear, the decision may not involve the Houses of the Oireachtas. We want to be certain that when we finish for Christmas, people will know for sure there will not be increases on 1 July next year. We will follow up with the witnesses on what will happen for the six months thereafter.

I call Senator Horkan on behalf of Fianna Fáil.

Senator Gerry Horkan

I apologise for missing some of the meeting. I had a prior engagement. I read the opening statement Mr. Walsh submitted to the committee, but I did not catch all of the interactions that have taken place this evening. I apologise if I repeat points that were already raised. The announcement today of a deferral for at least six months of the increase in toll charges takes some of the heat out of the previous announcement.

I appreciate Mr. Walsh's point that when there is no inflation, there is no increase in charges and, on the other hand, when there is inflation, the contract says there must be an increase in charges. I accept that. The percentage increase in the charges is based on the CPI. Will Mr. Walsh comment on the increase in TII's overheads? The barrier going up and down uses a certain amount of energy. Of course, there is no barrier on the M50. Some people would argue TII is not facing any increase in costs. Reference was made to the increase in the cost of lighting tunnels and so on, which Mr. Walsh said has increased from €1 million to €2.2 million in Limerick. In regard to the costs of running the network, or the parts of the network that are tolled, what are those increases versus the toll increase?

Mr. Peter Walsh

I will defer to my colleague, Mr. Maher, on this. As director of network management, he has a good understanding of the costs. Committee members visited our motorway control centre, for which we are grateful. It is good for them to have an understanding of how it works.

Senator Gerry Horkan

We were grateful to be there.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Members will have seen the operations there and the need to address up to 30, or even more than 30, incidents on the M50 on a weekly basis. Those vehicles have to be cleared off and any damage that is done must be repaired. That is just dealing with the incidents. I defer to Mr. Maher to talk about what is required to maintain and operate our national road network.

Senator Gerry Horkan

I have an idea, although not as much of a handle as the witnesses do, of the running cost of the network. The toll charge is increasing in accordance with the CPI, whatever percentage that happens to be. To be clear, I am asking whether TII's costs have gone up by more or less than the CPI. I presume the witnesses keep track of that.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes, we do. When we appeared before the committee in April to discuss the cost increases and the impact on construction projects-----

Senator Gerry Horkan

I appreciate that capital expenditure is not the same as revenue. A road that is perfect does not stay perfect forever but, once it is built, it is built and the costs of keeping it maintained may not be as high as inflation, or perhaps they are greater than inflation. That is really the question I am asking.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Mr. Maher might have some detail on it that will help illuminate it. However, it takes about €600 million a year to operate and maintain the asset value of the network. Those contracts-----

Senator Gerry Horkan

How much was that two years ago and how much is it now? How much is the percentage increase? How much has the cost of running the network gone up versus the extra charges?

Mr. Pat Maher

I cannot give the Senator an overall figure. However, let us look at some of the inputs, for a start, energy for public lighting, etc. For instance, in relation to the non-motorway network, we grant allocate local authorities typically €4 million per annum. Just like everybody else, that will have doubled in the current year. Energy costs are a huge factor. Operating a tunnel, as the Senator suggested, is particularly intensive in respect of energy costs because of the lighting, etc. All the electronic equipment that motorists see on the likes of the M50 and elsewhere is subject to the same increase. That is just one aspect of it.

When we talk about maintenance and asset management, we talk about kind of routine day-to-day maintenance, but also the renewal of the network. The Senator said that when it is built, it is built. Actually, every-----

Senator Gerry Horkan

I said that but I also acknowledge that there are costs. A perfect road is perfect for a while, but it needs ongoing maintenance. I accept that.

Mr. Pat Maher

It starts to deteriorate. Let us take the motorway pavements, for example. Typically you will get about 15 years out of a pavement like that before it has to be renewed and overlaid. As the Senator will be aware, an awful lot of our pavements were built in 2008, 2009 and 2010 and, therefore, many of pavements are coming to a point of demanding significant reinvestment. A major factor of that is the price of bitumen, which has spiked hugely in the current year. It parallels-----

Senator Gerry Horkan

Because it is oil-based.

Mr. Pat Maher

-----directly the price of oil, which is a byproduct of oil refining. For example, in the current year, we are seeing significant increases in contract prices and outturn prices. I do not have a figure for the Senator until we get to the end of the year and we can do that kind of back-analysis. That is a significant factor. The Senator will have seen, for example, the M50 during the summer. Substantial repaving work was done between junctions 7 and 10. That would have been subject to that level of increase. All of these issues have to be factored in.

There are other factors that people might not think about - for example, all of the signs, big and small, are aluminium-backed. A large proportion of the aluminium used in Europe came from Russia, which was one of the major producers. The price of aluminium post-Covid and post-Ukraine war, etc., has spiked significantly. All of these kind of factors feed into steel, which has spiked. I refer to safety barriers getting hit. They are supposed to get hit; that is why they are there, to protect from a worse consequence. The cost of maintenance on those has increased as well. In addition, labour costs are increasing. There are many factors. There are genuine increases in costs that are being borne directly by TII relating to those sections of the network that are managed directly by the organisation. However, we expect that the same kind of increases are being experienced by the toll operators and other PPPs as well.

Senator Gerry Horkan

I am not trying to give TII the get-out-of-jail or defence mechanism, but I am trying to interrogate. TII is saying that the contract says we can do this, so we can do this. I am trying to tease out whether it is just massive additional revenue TII is getting with no extra increase or not. I would like to have more detail on some of what the witnesses are telling me – not just from them. With the exception of the Port Tunnel and the M50, TII is kind of the regulator as much as it is the operator of the PPPs. If I could talk to the operators of the N6, N4 or N-whatever-it-is or N7, I could ask how much their costs and lighting have gone up. For example, whether costs have gone up 30% and the toll charge has gone up 10%, or the toll charge has gone up 10% and the operating costs 5% is the kind of question I am trying to ask.

On the M50, what percentage of vehicles that go through every day are tagged versus no concession at all versus vehicle registration? The Chair and I are both accountants and like to look at the figures.

(Interruptions).

Senator Gerry Horkan

I do not know. I will defer to the Chair’s knowledge on everything.

If a person is driving the M50 twice a day, every day, I presume that person would have a tag. It would be very foolish not to. If a person only drives it once a year, it might not be worth investing in a tag.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

The registered users, those with either a tag account or a video account-----

Senator Gerry Horkan

Not how many registered users there are, because I could be a registered user and use it once a year. Some 140,000 vehicles go through it every day - 40,000 are X and 40,000 are Y, or whatever. Does Mr. Masterson know the percentages?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

Some 88% to 89% will have an account. The Senator is correct in that the regular users will have an account because they-----

Senator Gerry Horkan

They will have a tag as opposed to vehicle recognition. I have vehicle recognition and I go through it perhaps five or six times a year.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

We were involved in doing surveys of the user base and approximately 2 million motorists use the road on an annual basis. One million of those use it perhaps once or twice a year - very infrequently. They are more likely not to have any of the accounts at all. It is just the trip to Dublin once or twice a year.

Senator Gerry Horkan

There is no logic in somebody not having the vehicle registration, because it costs nothing and it saves money. I do not know what the full charge is now, but I think it was €3.10, €2.60 and €2.10 or something like that at one stage. Even if a person only uses it once a year, he or she might as well sign up and get the vehicle registration. Is that a fair point?

Mr. Peter Walsh

We could not agree more.

Senator Gerry Horkan

TII should not agree more, because I am trying to reduce its revenue. However, from a customer’s perspective, there is no logic to somebody not having a tag or not having a vehicle account registration that takes money from their credit card, unless they happen to not have a credit or debit card or something.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

That is correct. We try to promote that through the public information.

Senator Gerry Horkan

I am kind of hoping perhaps somebody here will pick up on it. What percentage of people are paying the full charge? TII clearly collects revenue and it knows how much revenue it takes in. It knows, presumably, how many paid the €3.10 versus €2.60 versus €2.10. That is what I am looking for. Percentage-wise, how many people are paying the full rate without discount?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

Approximately 12% of the trips pay that full rate.

Senator Gerry Horkan

Those 12% of people should register their vehicles. On the fines, how much does TII make out of that? I know it is not the purpose of them, but they are quite punitive if someone does not understand what is happening. What percentage of TII's total revenue on the M50 is fines?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

With Covid the past couple of years, things have been just a little bit-----

Senator Gerry Horkan

Pre-Covid.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

Approximately €8 million or €9 million.

Senator Gerry Horkan

Out of how much?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

Out of the total of €165 million or thereabouts.

Senator Gerry Horkan

Okay. So about 5%.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

Yes, something like that.

Senator Gerry Horkan

Still, €8 million or €9 million is collected in fines from people who did not pay their charge on time. Does TII collect all those fines? I sometimes read about court cases where somebody has been done for 325 charges of never paying - just driving through every day for months and ignoring TII's charges. Do they always get pursued and can TII always collect whatever the fine is?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

No, we do not collect all of the fines. In our annual accounts, we have a write-off number in terms of debt that is not collected. It varies a little bit every year, but that could be 3% of the value of those fines.

Senator Gerry Horkan

Some 3%.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

We would write off-----

Senator Gerry Horkan

TII has about €9 million in fines and only 3% of it is not collected.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

Some 3% of the revenue owed on the M50 is written off, so that is-----

Senator Gerry Horkan

Some 3% of the revenue owed on the M50. Mr. Masterson just told me that the fines are approximately 5% of the revenue. Is he telling me that TII does not collect more than half the fines? I am not trying to play games here; I am just trying to interrogate.

Mr. Peter Walsh

It is 9 p.m. and I think the chances of us getting the numbers spot on in a-----

Senator Gerry Horkan

Fair enough. I am just trying to dig into-----

Chairman

We politicians are nocturnal creatures. We only-----

Senator Gerry Horkan

We only started at 7 p.m. If we were here since 2.30 p.m., I would accept the point.

Chairman

The witnesses might be early risers, but they might be early to bed. We are both.

Mr. Peter Walsh

We are happy to come back with any numbers-----

Senator Gerry Horkan

I would be interested to know-----

Mr. Cathal Masterson

It is reported and audited. The numbers are there. They are not-----

Senator Gerry Horkan

We see court cases where somebody was hit for a huge sum and one wonders if the person could ever have paid it. The fine could be €50,000 or whatever. The fines are punitive and you cannot get blood out of a stone. We have been told the fines are approximately €9 million a year but there was no mention of how much of those fines----

Mr. Peter Walsh

If I may, I emphasise that we do not want to mislead the committee in any way. We do not have the numbers with us.

Senator Gerry Horkan

I accept that and I am happy to wait for the figures. The point I am making is that the figures I want Mr. Walsh to bring back are those showing how much of the fines that are levied are collected. That is what I am seeking, as opposed to what percentage fines make up of the entire revenue or whatever.

Has TII ever thought about reducing the toll charge at certain times instead of increasing it? The port tunnel has a variable pricing system at certain times of the day for cars. Has TII considered a system whereby, for example, the M50 toll charge might be a different price on a Sunday morning and early and late on a Friday? That type of variable pricing is done by airlines and hotels, and with train tickets. The charge is the same no matter when I use the M50 toll or go through any other toll. Would there be a logic to implementing some kind of demand management system? I am fearful of demand management in other ways and I was historically against the tolling of the M50 because it drives traffic elsewhere by putting motorists off the main roads and onto roads in residential housing estates and so on. However, variable pricing might be useful. Has TII thought about doing that or is it not permitted within the contracts? Is TII stuck with what it inherited and the terms as they are?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

In 2014, we studied and reported on the concept of demand management for the M50 and the possibility of spreading the toll from the existing charge at the old West-Link Bridge toll.

Senator Gerry Horkan

That is a separate issue. I am asking about the possibility of variable pricing at different times of the day.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

That is currently not permissible under the by-laws.

Senator Gerry Horkan

Has TII investigated whether, if the by-laws could be changed, it would be a good idea to incentivise people to travel at less busy times of the day and thereby reduce the pressure at peak times, for everybody's benefit? I would get to pay a lower toll if I travel at a quieter time, which facilitates me. It also facilitates those who cannot travel at any time other than 5.30 p.m. on a Friday. They would not have to sit in the same volume of traffic because some of us would decide to go at an earlier or later time of the day and pay a lower toll.

Chairman

The Senator has made an eminently sensible suggestion. Whether the witnesses agree, it would feed into the model of trying to reduce traffic on the M50. What is required to change the by-laws?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

Introducing variable pricing would require more than a change in the by-laws. It would require a change in the toll scheme itself, which would then need to be followed by a change in the by-laws.

Senator Gerry Horkan

How doable is it to change the toll schemes? Are they fixed forever?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

We would need a direction on that as part of the demand management scheme. We have explored it over the years in various papers.

Chairman

From whom does TII need direction?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

We would require a direction from the Department of Transport to bring forward a scheme of demand management measures on that corridor. It would require a new toll scheme to explain what we are trying to achieve around the principles of demand management. We would then need to go through a formal public consultation process. Once we got through that process, we would have to bring the proposal through a planning process as well because it could have impacts elsewhere. There is a process to it.

Senator Gerry Horkan

Other members are much more connected to the haulage world than I am but I have a point to make in that regard. When the N4 was completed, I recall driving towards Enfield and seeing a large number of trucks heading off the M50 and going through the town to avoid the toll plaza. I presume haulage companies have to pay those drivers for the extra hour for which they are stuck in Kinnegad or wherever. Could a mechanism be developed, like what is done with the port tunnel, whereby it could be made to suit everybody, including the haulage industry and the people living in the towns in questions, for the haulage company drivers to be on the motorways and out of those smaller towns? It costs me €2 or €3 to get my car through the toll but I do not know how much it costs haulage drivers to go through it. I have never driven a truck and I do not pay attention to the signage other than to check what I have to pay. If it costs them a fiver or tenner, perhaps it is worthwhile for the drivers to go through the town because the company is not paying them enough to justify paying the toll charge. Does it not make sense to look at those schemes and see how an arrangement can be made in everybody's interest, including that of the haulage industry and the people living in the towns, to have more drivers using the motorway and paying some kind of toll, even if it is half the current charge?

Chairman

We will come back to this issue. The first six months of next year are covered. When we come back to this, we might look at what the Senator is proposing.

Senator Gerry Horkan

It would be useful to explore the opportunity to do something for the haulage industry and for consumers. I thank the witnesses for their opening statement and their input. For road users, particularly those who have no choice, as the Chairman noted, because they are stuck living somewhere and working somewhere else and they need to use these roads every day, the charges are a big imposition on them. If we do anything today, we should encourage the 12% of people who are paying the full charge to register their vehicles and pay a little less.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I am conscious that there is a requirement for the NTA to be involved in the development of any demand management scheme within the greater Dublin area.

Chairman

The committee is inclusive. I assure Mr. Walsh everybody will be represented at any meeting to discuss this issue.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I thank the Chairman for organising the meeting and our guests for attending. Mr. Walsh spoke about honouring contracts. How long has TII been set up as an organisation?

Mr. Peter Walsh

We have been operating as TII since 2015.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Were all of these contracts inherited?

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes, but we are still carrying out the functions of the National Roads Authority, NRA.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I understand that.

Mr. Peter Walsh

The contracts were created with the NRA.

Deputy Verona Murphy

This is a legacy issue up to a point. Having engaged with TII as a former president of the Irish Road Haulage Association, IRHA, I understand how the contracts work. The provision in those contracts allows for a discount for multiple usage, as do the by-laws. Is that correct?

Mr. Peter Walsh

My colleague, Mr. Masterson, addressed this issue earlier.

Deputy Verona Murphy

He may have addressed it earlier but Mr. Walsh addressed it with me previously. As part of honouring the contracts, the discount provision has never been honoured in that it has never been given. Is that not the case?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

The toll road contractors in question are obliged to offer a certain product, which, as far as I understand, they do offer. It is not available, I understand, to tagged customers and the providers are not obliged to offer it to such customers. That is where the point of contention arose.

Deputy Verona Murphy

What are TII's obligations under environmental objectives to reduce emissions?

Mr. Peter Walsh

Is the Deputy referring to obligations under the contract?

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am asking about TII's obligations in this regard in the broader context. Understanding that the provision to offer the 10% discount requires stopping the trucks to use a bonus card system is an outrageous proposition and it is not one that is in line either with the national planning framework, our environmental contracts or our climate change objectives. Is that not the case?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

Those contractors are honouring their contract. Whether I personally agree with it, I do not have any mechanism to change that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That means they are gold-plated contracts. If it is not enforceable, it is rubbish to say there is a provision to give a 10% discount.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

If they were not offering that 10% discount-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

They did not offer it.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

It is a product they are obliged to offer. If they were not offering it, I would intervene and I would be entitled to do so.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Mr. Masterson did not intervene. I am the person who negotiated on this issue. The IRHA developed a tag for the very objective of achieving the 10% discount for hauliers in order that they would not have to pass the cost on to the consumer. Mr. Masterson, in particular, was the roadblock to achieving that. He failed to give any direction to any of the operators to institute the 10% discount in a meaningful way.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

It is a matter for them to decide whether to accept it.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is what I am saying. The contractors are a law unto themselves. They were given a gold-plated contract. I appreciate what Mr. Walsh said about nobody------

Mr. Cathal Masterson

I disagree.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I ask Mr. Masterson to let me finish.

Chairman

This is a good exchange but I ask-----

Mr. Cathal Masterson

The Deputy said I am the roadblock.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Mr. Masterson was the roadblock.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

I am not the roadblock.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I said Mr. Masterson was the roadblock at the time, when I was president of the IRHA.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

I remember the engagement. The contractors did not want to accept what the IRHA had to offer.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Yes, and Mr. Masterson thought that was fine. What good, then, is the provision for a 10% discount?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

I did not think it was fine or not fine. The contractors refused to accept what the IRHA had to offer. That is a matter for them.

Deputy Verona Murphy

No, all of the obligations-----

Chairman

I will intervene, Deputy Murphy, if I may. Was provision for a discount included in the contracts that were negotiated with the operators of the tolls?

Mr. Peter Walsh

To be clear, the contracts were not negotiated. They were created and tendered.

Chairman

Okay. Under the contracts as put out----

Deputy Verona Murphy

There is a provision in them for a discount.

Chairman

----is there a provision for a discount?

They appear to be standard contracts. I have looked through them all.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

There is a provision for a prepaid trip card for customers.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is enough. Let me say what prepaid means.

Chairman

Could it be fleshed out for us?

Deputy Verona Murphy

I do not need to flesh it out.

Chairman

Could the Deputy flesh it out for members?

Deputy Verona Murphy

If you have to use a prepay card, you have to stop. You expend a litre of fuel every time. At Dublin Port Tunnel every day, people expend 40,000 l of fuel because of a barrier. This costs hauliers €80,000 per day. The emissions output is 37,000 tonnes per annum, just for TII to have a barrier that Mr. Maher says is for safety. I have raised this for six years, including the two and a half since I was elected, but I am being told only now by TII that there is a solution. I want to know the template for the solution, because there is no toll barrier at any other tunnel in Europe.

Chairman

Has the Deputy concluded her points on the discount issue?

Deputy Verona Murphy

I have not concluded, because we are getting nowhere.

Chairman

Just to bring clarity on the discount-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

I will clarify the point I am trying to make. Mr. Masterson is saying that we have a provision in contracts that is useless because he cannot get those concerned to comply. They offer something that is not environmentally friendly. Are we moving with the science or not? If the system is not working, I would expect Mr. Masterson and his colleagues to give the Government the relevant information in order that the Department of Transport can give a direction to the effect that if a toll tag has been developed at great expense – the prepay figure at the time was €100,000, in which case they still refused to give the discount-----

Chairman

TII has agreed to meet the road hauliers to discuss these issues. Could Mr. Maher deal with the issue the Deputy raised regarding the toll barrier?

Mr. Pat Maher

I disagree with the Deputy that there is no example in Europe.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Where is it?

Mr. Pat Maher

The Øresund crossing.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Where?

Mr. Pat Maher

The Øresund crossing, which comprises the major tunnel and bridge between Denmark and Sweden. My colleagues, as part of the process of developing the proposal for implementation at the tunnel in Dublin, intend to use the same kind of system adopted at the crossing. There is a barrier on that crossing.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is a stop–go system.

Mr. Pat Maher

It is a barrier system in the same manner-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is a different system-----

Mr. Pat Maher

It is a barrier system in the same manner as we have a barrier-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is a different system entirely.

Mr. Pat Maher

We will have to agree to disagree.

Deputy Verona Murphy

We will not agree to disagree. TII has been using a barrier on a route that is toll free for trucks. In this day and age, TII is allowing nitrogen oxide emissions amounting to 37,000 tonnes per year, for no good reason and costing hauliers €80,000 per day. That is the effect. What is the solution?

Mr. Pat Maher

I cannot accept the Deputy's figures.

Deputy Verona Murphy

What is the solution?

Mr. Pat Maher

The solution for the upgraded, updated tolling arrangement will be the installation of gantries in advance of the current plaza, which will allow for earlier recognition of the vehicles coming out of the port or going southbound into-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is an express lane.

Mr. Pat Maher

It is an express lane but there will still be barrier control available to us for the purposes I have outlined, which relate to ensuring the ongoing safety and operation of the tunnel.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Why has TII not considered a tunnel with no barrier to determine how it operates?

Mr. Pat Maher

One of several factors associated with the Øresund crossing relates to the overall volume of traffic. The crossing has from 20,000 to 25,000 vehicles per day, which is similar to the number in the Dublin tunnel. It is similar in length, so it is a very good template in that regard.

Deputy Verona Murphy

What is its height?

Mr. Pat Maher

Off the top of my head, I do not know. I do not know how that is relevant.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Mr. Maher knows we actually had to create and implement legislation to reduce the height limit of the tunnel because such a balls was made of its height when it was being built. That is the truth.

Chairman

I do not know if that is a curse word but we will strike it out anyway.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Whether it is or not, it is the truth. We had to reduce the height limit because the tunnel was built too low.

Chairman

Point taken. Can I-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

My problem is that, although everything is pointed towards climate change and the environment, we are operating a system that points towards neither. It actually penalises to the point that it costs the country money.

Chairman

I hope the meeting between the road hauliers and TII will bring some common sense to bear on this. Could I go back to a topic the Deputy raised? I am still a little-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am sorry, but had I finished? No. I had a little bit of time. I have to go when I am finished.

Chairman

The Deputy was not finished. She had a question on discounts for Mr. Masterson to follow up on.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The point on the discounts is that TII is giving out gold-plated contracts in that Mr. Masterson is telling me it cannot force the operators to institute the 10% discount, in the same way that there are express lanes all over Europe for trucks. They do not stop: a barrier lifts 100 yards from where a tag is recognised, in which case there is no waste of fuel or buildup of nitrogen oxide emissions. TII, as an organisation, or whatever other body is responsible, has failed to insist that the operators create the lanes to which I refer. We have no express lane at any toll barrier other than on the M50. TII is causing much of the emissions.

Chairman

If the provision of the discount is in the contracts, why can TII not say to the operators that it needs to be provided under the contracts? It seems reasonable.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

I am in danger of repeating myself. There is an obligation to offer a prepaid product that entitles the user to a discount. That means you have to prepay to get the discount.

Deputy Verona Murphy

They did prepay. Is Mr. Masterson denying that? Did they prepay?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

I am just trying to answer the question. Could I please answer the question?

Chairman

Please.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

If that is the product being offered and what you want to buy, there is no issue with that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is a lie. That is a barefaced lie.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

It is not a lie.

Deputy Verona Murphy

All the tags were prepaid.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Could I just ask the Chair not to allow people to be accused of lying?

Deputy Verona Murphy

What would Mr. Walsh like me to say? That it was untrue?

Mr. Peter Walsh

I would like the Deputy not to accuse people of lying.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Mr. Masterson knows it is untrue; he was there at the time.

Chairman

In the interest of-----

Mr. Peter Walsh

I will have to ask my colleagues not to answer any further questions-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

That would suit you rightly-----

Chairman

Will Deputy Verona Murphy withdraw her comment? That is not how we do business.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I would say it was untrue, and Mr. Masterson knows it because he was-----

Chairman

Is it that the Deputy is not accusing anyone of lying but believes the comment to be an untruth?

Deputy Verona Murphy

I know it to be untrue.

Chairman

No. The Deputy believes-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

No. I was there doing the negotiating.

Chairman

That is a personal view.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is not a personal view; it is a fact.

Chairman

We cannot accuse people of lying.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I did not mean to accuse Mr. Masterson of lying, but what he said was an untruth. Well aware of it, he is.

Chairman

Does the Deputy withdraw the comment about a lie?

Deputy Verona Murphy

I do. I have one final question relevant to why we are where we are.

Chairman

Who is it directed towards?

Deputy Verona Murphy

If there is excess funding-----

Mr. Cathal Masterson

Hopefully not me.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Sorry-----

Chairman

The Deputy should please continue.

Deputy Verona Murphy

If somebody pays €2.50 for a toll of €2.30, where does the excess money end up?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

According to the PPP contracts, it is for the benefit of the PPP contractor.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The operator, in other words.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

The PPP contractor. The company that runs-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

The toll operator? We have eight different tolls. In other words, the operators keep the money as part of their profit.

Chairman

We were told earlier that two of the operators-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Does one see what I mean by gold-plated contracts? If we do not have the volume of traffic, we, as taxpayers, must pay to make up for it.

Chairman

That relates to the original construct of the PPPs. It is a separate issue from that concerning TII.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is not really. Obviously, TII must have some input-----

Chairman

Our understanding is that there are two risk-based contracts, pertaining to the M1 and M4.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

The M3 and Limerick Tunnel are the ones with the traffic guarantee payments-----

Chairman

I am referring to the profit-sharing mechanism.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

The profit-sharing applies to all of them, but only two are currently being triggered, because of the level of traffic.

Chairman

What are they?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

The M4 and M1.

Chairman

Based on traffic volumes?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

That is correct.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The operators are still keeping any excess.

Chairman

No. If the traffic reaches a certain level, a profit-sharing mechanism kicks in. If that level is not reached, nothing is paid to TII. That is based on the contracts.

Mr. Peter Walsh

If I understand Deputy Verona Murphy correctly, it is if people pay more than is required in a toll. The extra money, above and beyond what they are required to pay, is kept by the toll operator.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Yes, that is it.

Chairman

I now call Deputy Ó Murchú, who has ten minutes.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I thank Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, for coming before the committee. I want to go back to the point about toll prices on the M50 as a means of demand reduction. What are we talking about here? They are doing that on the basis that the M50 obviously cannot deal with the traffic that the M50 should be able to deal with. I understand that. Is there a solution to this and has one been modelled out, if there were to be an increase in relation to public transport, etc.? That is accepting that a huge number of people will have to drive trucks, cars and whatever else. Obviously, if a considerable number of cars can be taken out of the equation, that will impact on the number of tolls that are paid.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I am not sure that I understood the question.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

The TII is talking about the M50-----

Chairman

Will Deputy Ó Murchú repeat the question?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

I think I get it.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Exactly. Mr. Masterson knows what I mean.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

It is a fair question. There is a design capacity on the road, and we are starting to reach that design capacity, particularly at peak periods. Currently, we are introducing variable speed limit technology that will make that flow more reliable by trying reduce the number of breakdowns and incidents by calming down the flow. That will only get us so far. It is our prediction that over the next couple of years if traffic continues to rise that the flow will break down much more continuously over time and we will be in a situation whereby – and this benefits the congestion that Deputy Verona Murphy had spoken about – that will become problematic for the country and for the greater Dublin area as a whole.

We have been looking at the various ways in which we might deal with that since 2014. We were required, to be fair to An Bord Pleanála, to look at that as part of the demand management scheme and we have done that. That involves considering how best we might manage that demand, including through pricing, although that is not a particularly popular measure. We have realised that the current toll has an impact, but it is quite blunt because it is located at one point at the crossing for historical reasons. Ideally, we would like to develop a scheme in discussions with the NTA around modelling something that could ensure that the capacity of the corridor is protected going forward for at least the next ten, 15 or 20 years. This will be so that we will not be in a situation anymore around expanding the network which we may have been in before, and this goes back to the Deputy’s point on climate action. We have done basic modelling on it. It is sticky because the demand on it now to be served by public transport is tricky enough. We have been doing more work on that to try to get a better sense of what types of trips are being made by what types of users and when these are occurring. We would like to do more of that.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Is there a difficulty in even getting the information to be able to make determinations? I will not repeat everything that has been said before, which is usually what I say before I repeat everything that has been said before. Although I have been here for most of this meeting, there is every chance that representatives from the TII will end up repeating themselves here. The Chair has spoken to representatives from the TII about the determination and discretion it has had. As regards the maximum charges, outside of the M50, the TII has no discretion. It is what it is and there are contracts.

Earlier, a witness said that it would be disingenuous to not use the maximum charge that is for the M50. How exactly did all the interaction happen? Mr. Walsh spoke about the range of possibilities that occurred in August. In September, there was the conversation with the Government. What did that look like? What exactly happened there? The argument has been made that the TII should have known, and maybe it should, that we are in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis. However, I could easily make the argument when the TII told the Government about the decision, that the Government would have been able to make the determination that there was a problem. It should have acted before public pressure and the Private Members’ Business that was tabled by Deputy Darren O’Rourke, which ensured that there was no choice put to do what happened-----

Chairman

It is a pity that it will clash with our committee meeting this evening.

Mr. Peter Walsh

On the issue of the range of interactions, when we saw that there were significant levels of inflation, we were reporting on the impact of everything we were doing, including in the discussions with Government. In June, it had looked as though we would have in excess of 6%. In July, we reported to our board that it was likely that there would be increases in toll charges across all toll schemes if inflation maintained at the level it was.

The point of the year at which consumer price index is determined is August. It was published on 12 September of this year. That was the point at which the sums could be done around the impact. However, we could see earlier in the year that inflation was high. We had given an indication to our board and subsequently we reported every month to the chairman, who wrote to the Minister with the points of interest from the board meeting. At the end of July-----

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

This issue has therefore been highlighted since June. Is that the case?

Mr. Peter Walsh

Depending on how one interprets what was being said, it was certainly indicated in July that the tolls were likely to rise. However, we could not give definitive numbers because we did not know until September-----

Chairman

Are those standard and are they done every year?

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes, every year.

Chairman

That information is being missed. There is a standard every year under the contracts.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Last year, there was an increase in tolls. Then, in the discussions with officials from the Department, although not with the Minister, a range of items was discussed, which included everything from MetroLink to tolls. It was discussed that there would be a probable increase. The Department asked us to provide it with a briefing note to describe the range of possibilities. That briefing note was provided-----

Chairman

Was that in August?

Mr. Peter Walsh

That was 1 September. We discussed it in August, but we gave him the briefing note on 1 September. On 12 September, the CPI index was published at 8.6%. We then did sums, checked them and they went to the October meeting of our board. The board then made a determination about the M50 eFlow toll rates and the Dublin Port Tunnel. Then, we confirmed that the calculations are correct with the eight toll schemes.

Chairman

Was this based on the CSO?

Mr. Peter Walsh

It was based on the CSO. Then, that was communicated to the Department by way of an information note.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

That is a whole pile of over and back interaction. First, it highlighted it and then gave the information. Is it the case that at no point did anyone have a discussion about there being a problem here and that this is not right? Therein lies the problem. That was a mistake and, although I would say this, that mistake lies with the Government. It is a fair point and I think that the TII has probably taken a bit of a beating.

Mr. Peter Walsh

As I see it, we are fulfilling the obligations that fall to us as a State agency.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I accept that. Mr. Walsh has spoken about the cost he is dealing with. He has spoken also about the PPPs, although I am not sure that they are quite offering the great deal that Mr. Walsh indicated them to be earlier. However, at some level, he has what he has in front of him and a huge amount of deviation is not allowed on that.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

We cannot exactly go back in time to re-tender or to re-negotiate, or whatever the correct term is. That is what it is.

I will deviate, rather than repeating the same material.

The issue brought to my attention relates to the use of hard shoulders. A hard shoulder is used on the way into Belfast, particularly for buses. We talk about getting more people to use public transport and so on. From an answer to a parliamentary question, I know that hard shoulders are being looked at as part of the M4 transport corridor improvement scheme and the N11 bus priority scheme but I am asking about the M1 on the way into Dublin. This is about people getting the best bang for their buck, not only from a cost but a speed point of view, when taking coaches, whether these are Bus Éireann or the likes of Matthews Coaches or whoever else.

Mr. Peter Walsh

The Deputy is asking if-----

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I am saying this hard shoulder issue is happening and asking if TII is looking at it. What are the possibilities? Could we look at this from the point of view of the M1 into Dublin? We are probably talking about a limited amount of hard shoulder but it could make a major difference.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I will take that issue away and come back to the committee on what can be brought forward in the context of projects. The M4 lends itself to a hard shoulder but the N7 does not because of the number of accesses. I am not familiar with what constraints may have applied to the M1 but the N11 is one route where we are bringing it forward. I can report back to the committee on why the M1 may or may not be a suitable radial to look at for a hard shoulder.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I appreciate that. Without going into a whole pile of detail, be that a conversation regarding barrier control or whatever, are there any plans to change any of the operations in any of the toll plazas at this point in time?

Mr. Peter Walsh

I think-----

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Again, it is brought up when bus operators or whatever will say that they get stuck at toll plazas at times. There is not the free flow of movement and they get the loss, including environmental factors, which were previously referenced.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I might defer to Mr. Masterson. I am not aware of active projects from a TII perspective. That is not to say these are not in development.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

There is one in exploration. As Mr. Maher said, the concept behind the Dublin tunnel is almost hybrid. It is to go a little more free flow but we have to make sure that we can protect capacity and safety.

Chairman

Am I correct in my interpretation that the TII's priority with tunnels is to ensure that they do not get clogged? Therefore, the barriers are a mechanism to ensure that, in an emergency situation, a tunnel is not backed up with vehicles. Is that the case, in layman's terms?

Mr. Pat Maher

Absolutely, most specifically in respect of the Dublin tunnel. The Limerick and Jack Lynch tunnels are approximately 600 m long, while the Dublin tunnel is 4.5 km long. It is absolutely paramount to ensure we do not end up with a situation in which there is static traffic in that tunnel.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

We need barriers, but we would not always need to use them.

Mr. Pat Maher

Absolutely. The objective of what we are trying to do is to optimise arrangements at the plazas to ensure that they deliver a more free-flow situation following an upgrade.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

All right.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

A couple of the public private partnerships, PPPs, are interested in exploring moving to the free-flow scenario.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Is the M1 one of those?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

No, not that I am aware of. It is at an early stage so the PPP has to do its own feasibility study and assessment of that. It also has to satisfy its lenders that if it introduces free flow, it can protect the revenue stream. I would not be surprised to see that kind of trend growing in the coming years.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

We could all probably get into the ins and outs of every individual toll, and try to find out the ins and outs of what particular level of profit these companies are getting. It is fair to say that some of them seem to be doing very well. That is the bit that sometimes comes up. It is the counterargument to what Mr. Walsh said in the sense of assessing how good these companies are in delivering for people. There have been numerous newspaper articles, and a significant amount of commentary here, on the huge amount of money made by Celtic Roads Group and whoever else, and what money is behind these companies, when we talk about investment funds, asset management companies and all the rest of it. Their stakeholders seem to be very well paid. The fear is that, across the board, we are not necessarily getting the long-term bang for our buck that we should and that there is a serious problem with the sustainability of our road maintenance system at this point.

Chairman

I will ask a question before I go to non-members of the committee. I looked at the by-laws for all the toll contracts. How long do those contracts last? There is normally a review period for contracts to consider them. I see that under legislation the TII is entitled to review toll contracts but it is a process. To date, has the TII reviewed any contracts? How long do these contracts last? Are they of indefinite duration?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

The toll scheme and its associated by-laws are of indefinite duration.

Chairman

Okay.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

The contracts are very much fixed term for 30 or 35 years, depending on the contract. On reviewing the contracts, we do not have a specific power to review-----

Chairman

Sorry.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

We do not have a particular power to review the contracts per se. We have to honour the contracts as they are. There will be provisions in the contract to do particular audits, say, a revenue collection audit, to make sure that the company is counting the traffic as it should be in order that we can get our share, where it is required.

Chairman

I will quickly list the existing contracts. We have the M1, the M7, the M8, the M6, the N25, the N18, which is the Limerick tunnel, the M3 and the M4. They are all PPPs. My understanding is that the funding model of a PPP is typically based on it putting up the money and building the road. It is a design and build arrangement, in effect. The TII then comes with a model that, in some cases, involves risk sharing - the Limerick tunnel is one - and in other cases does not. The rate that can be charged is determined by an annual review based on the consumer price index, CPI.

Mr. Peter Walsh

There is a toll at the beginning that is set-----

Chairman

On day one, under the by-law. When the contracts come to their end-of-life period, does the road then automatically revert to State ownership under TII?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

Yes.

Chairman

Was the M50 originally a PPP or was it built by the State?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

The West-Link portion of about 3.4 km, which involved the bridge crossing over the Liffey valley, was in the form of a concession contract and an early PPP.

Chairman

When will that come back into public ownership?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

We bought back the scheme around 2007. We finished paying the payback of that in 2020.

Chairman

Of the other schemes, when do the M1 and other roads come back into public ownership? At that stage, as they will be under TII, it will have absolute discretion on what it charges, as it has in respect of the M50. Senator Horkan made a very common-sense point. There is quite a significant difference between the rate TII charges for the tag and that for unregistered vehicles. The M4 and the M6 will come back into public ownership in 2023, which is-----

Mr. Peter Walsh

It is 2033.

Chairman

That is in ten years' time. The M1 Dundalk road will come back into public ownership in 2034, which is 11 years' time. The M8 will be publicly owned in 11 years' time, the N25 Waterford road will be in public ownership in 2036, which is 14 years' time-----

Mr. Peter Walsh

It is 2024. Sorry, the Chair is right.

Chairman

It is 2036. The N18 Limerick tunnel will come back into public ownership in 2041, which is 19 years away, the M3 to Clonee will be in 2052, which is 30 years away, the M6 will be in 2037, which is 25 years away, and the M7 and M8 will be in 2037.

We are talking about substantial periods, of ten years or more, before these come back into public ownership.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

The last two will take 15 years. We look at that as the early 2030s and late 2030s.

Chairman

The 2037 project is 15 years away. I miscounted. There is a significant period for all of them, with a minimum of ten years and a maximum of 30 years. This will be a recurring theme. We are now looking at climate change. An issue has been raised with regard to hauliers. The fact they are queueing at a barrier is not good for emissions. We would all accept that. We will maybe work with Transport Infrastructure Ireland on this. In fairness, TII has been very accommodating to the committee. We hope we have worked well together and will continue to do so. We will come back to that. In essence, there are ten tolls. Two are in full State ownership. I would have thought the toll income from the M50 would be the highest in the country by a long shot.

Mr. Peter Walsh

That is correct.

Chairman

There are also the other tolls. It is not as straightforward as having them all come into public ownership in two or three years. This is a recurring issue. Where are public private partnerships as a model for further capital infrastructure projects?

Mr. Peter Walsh

There are no plans for any future PPP schemes. The second tranche of PPP schemes the Government approved and asked us to proceed with are availability PPPs. These are the five schemes that were constructed over the years. I cannot remember which years, but they finished in recent years. They include the M17-N18 Gort to Tuam route, the New Ross bypass, and the N11 from Gorey to Enniscorthy.

Chairman

There are no tolls.

Mr. Peter Walsh

No tolls. They are effectively a mortgage.

Chairman

They are PPPs.

Mr. Peter Walsh

They are PPPs, maintained and operated by the PPP company. It has to keep the road available and payments relate to availability.

Chairman

On TII's cost-benefit analysis and upfront costs of getting the roads built, as well as costs over the period, are PPPs an expensive model for the State?

Mr. Peter Walsh

Extensive appraisal has been done. The projects work out as having a positive cost-benefit ratio.

Chairman

What if the State built them? What value ratio would TII typically apply?

Mr. Peter Walsh

We do not apply a ratio-----

Chairman

A discount rate.

Mr. Peter Walsh

-----or even a rate. Even for the projects the State builds, we will bring forward a business case which will comply with the public spending code and will undertake appraisal of benefits, costs and so on. The rate is not always the determining factor as to whether the project should go ahead. The Collooney to Castlebaldwin road was a scheme we finished in the past year. There was an appalling accident history on the old road. It did not lead to much time saving because, in uncongested conditions, there is little difference between time spent on the old road and time spent on the new road. Strictly following the cost-benefit ratio measure did not really stack up, but there was a Government commitment to build it, so we built it. I think it is a tremendous bonus to the network and the safety of the network in the vicinity of Sligo. It is not-----

Chairman

If TII is using a crude measure, in simple terms, it might look at the cost over a period, account for the discount to get the present value, and compare it with the cost of a build by the State. In the current environment, based on that model, is it more economical for the State to build it directly or to use PPPs?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

The schemes would all have been tested at various stages, right up to the point of signing the contract. It is hard to say, unless one ran a competition to see what the market would provide the bids at.

Chairman

The PPP model is typically built around a borrowing debt model by PPPs. It is from a different perspective from what the State would do.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

In the two comparator calculations, there is the cost for the State borrowing the money to build the scheme compared with the private-----

Chairman

That is typically higher.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

The Chair is right. There is also an assessment of potential benefits, particularly for PPPs. Generally speaking, the more complicated schemes are schemes like tunnels or iconic bridges. They can typically be built more quickly and typically have a better transition from the construction phase into the operations phase. It is all encompassed within that contract. The handover from construction to operation is done within the bounds of the contract. They would typically have a better track record on asset management and maintenance.

Chairman

If a PPP is not a toll model, how is it funded? Is an income paid to the operator of the road over a period?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

Yes, based on the availability of the road. If lanes are open for traffic and we can use the road, we would pay for that road. If there is something wrong with the road and it cannot be used, we do not pay. It is based on the user paying.

Mr. Peter Walsh

There is a good example of that working in the taxpayer's favour, in my opinion, at the New Ross bypass. The PPP company had technical difficulties with the bridge and with completing the project. The taxpayer did not have to pay anything for that until such time as the project was complete, then availability payments started to flow. There are good protections for the taxpayer in these. We are not promoting any particular model, nor would we. We will undertake the provision of infrastructure using whatever means the Department and Government require of us. I would not like to promote any one aspect. The benefit that should be borne in mind is that the difference between having completed the major inter-urban network and being short of 300 km of major inter-urban network is vast. The functionality of the connections is far greater.

Chairman

When TII looks at projects, does it still compare PPPs with State building? Is that still an option?

Mr. Peter Walsh

We are required to do an assessment of means of delivery of a project. The determination of what would be progressed is not for TII to make.

Chairman

It is determined by Government.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

The public spending code obliges us to consider PPP for schemes of a certain scale and to do a suitability assessment on that basis. It also obliges us to assess a scheme for user-charging depending on the scheme.

Chairman

Ultimately, there is sign-off by the Minister for Transport and the Government. That is for schemes in excess of €100 million.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

We would welcome discussions in the future about tolls expiring. We are working on that as part of what we call Project Bruce. It is a TII action as part of the climate action plan to see if we can improve on the arrangements that are in place today. I know that 2033 and 2037 may feel like a long time away, but it takes time to get agreement and assessment of the options, then to consider what pathway we want to progress with as a country. We would welcome the discussion.

Chairman

Mr. Masterson is talking about the time after the State takes the roads over, whether there is a toll thereafter.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

That is correct. If they are to be tolled, there is also the question of the form of the toll and how we should iron out some of the bluntness currently in the system.

Chairman

We will do further work based on that discussion. A further six months could take care of much more. It is part of a wider discussion.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I welcome the witnesses. When I leave this meeting tonight, I will travel along the M4 to Longford. I will pay a €3 toll, which is probably among the more expensive tolls. I do not think I am getting value for money, especially because I am going to Longford. It is the same for anyone who is travelling to the north west, including Mayo, north Roscommon, Sligo, Leitrim, Longford, Westmeath or south Donegal.

We do not have a dual carriageway or motorway access the entire way west, yet that is not the case to almost anywhere else as you leave Dublin city. Mr. Walsh spoke in particular about Sligo, Collooney, Castlebaldwin, the significant number of fatalities that occurred there and why that road was funded. On the N4 section between Mullingar and Roosky, there have been 20 fatalities, 34 serious injuries and a further 218 accidents since 2008, and there was one this morning that delayed me coming in to Leinster House. The Government has prioritised balanced regional development as core to the economics of this country, with every region having the opportunity to benefit from that, but the entire north west beyond Mullingar is not benefiting from it. This is the missing piece from the jigsaw of the entire country’s network with regard to accessibility to our capital. Significant funding has been spent west of Longford, on the N5 and the N4, which I mentioned, yet there is a 50 km section in the middle that has not been completed. It was removed from the national development plan in 2008 and reinstated after a great deal of pressure. Funding was withdrawn for this year to stop the process as it was and further funding was then found. By quarter 1 of next year, there will be the preferred route option, after which the route option selection process will be finalised in quarter 2, which will give some clarity to hundreds of farmers, landowners and householders who have since 2008 not known what to do with their property or land.

I understand from comments Mr. Walsh made recently that the level of funding available is limited until 2026. Is the funding going to be in place in 2023 for the national roads office to progress that project to phase 3, environmental impact assessment and preliminary design, and, ultimately, planning permission? We do not want a repeat of what happened previously where the project was left idle for a number of years. It was then reinstated to Project Ireland 2040 and we had to go back to the start because time had passed and because of all the environmental aspects, which meant we had to spend millions of euro. Will that funding be there for that project to continue in 2023? If we are to live up to the commitment the Government has made to balanced regional development, that project will need to continue to planning permission stage and be locked in. If there is a delay with regard to funding - I fully accept there are many projects in the capital plan - at least when the project’s turn comes, we will not have to start the process all over again and waste more time. Indeed, in the intervening period, landowners might even make changes. I do not think we are getting value throughout the midlands and the north west because of this but we are entitled to it. Businesspeople and those living there are entitled to the same opportunities for investment into the region, which we are not getting because of that lack of access. Will Mr. Byrne comment on that?

The proposal from Senator Horkan with regard to the M50, which the Chair mentioned, is a credible one that needs to be looked at. It would make a massive difference to the early-morning and late-evening gridlock on the motorway. I would like it to be taken on board and progressed, with whatever by-laws need to be changed being changed.

I was disappointed to hear there is a debt write-off for some people who do not pay their fines. I pay mine on the occasions when I forget. I have a toll tag in my car but there is none in my wife's car because it is not usually necessary. It is only when we are going to the airport that we might forget about it. We might head off and then end up being fined €46, but we pay it, so I was disappointed to hear TII writes off a certain number of them. I think all the fines should be collected.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I will need to revert with detail on what figure relates to write-offs. I appreciate it is an issue that requires an accurate answer. We do not take it lightly. We are pleased about the level of compliance on the M50. For a barrier-free toll system to be of the order of 97% compliance and tolls paid is not a small achievement. By international comparators, it is an extremely good performance. We take toll evasion very seriously. It has been a source of frustration to me that the write-offs were focused on in the accounts. They are an accounting treatment that is required relating to a number of issues that I will not even try to outline-----

Chairman

Will Mr. Walsh revert to us with full clarity on that?

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes, we will.

As for the N4, from Mullingar to Longford and Roosky, we are conscious that the high level of head-on collisions in particular was highlighted. That section of road warrants intervention and we have been keen to progress that project, insofar as funds will allow, and we will continue that. Unfortunately, I cannot give the committee any definitive word today because we still have not had our money for 2023 confirmed by the Department. Whereas we brought forward a draft plan and budget to our board last month, we will have to bring back another one in December that will reflect the confirmed figures, provided we get those confirmed figures. As of today, we do not have them, so I cannot definitively say what level of funding the project will get.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

Mr. Walsh referred to a draft plan. Is the project included in the draft plan?

Mr. Peter Walsh

It was in our draft plan but we have been asked for several scenarios, which we have provided, for what can be achieved with different funding levels. The funding level we will receive will be a matter for the Department and the Minister.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

Should sufficient money be provided, that project will continue. Is that what Mr. Walsh is saying?

Mr. Peter Walsh

The project is well worth progressing, and if there is sufficient money, it will warrant progressing. In our opinion, it is a section of the network that has a less than ideal level of performance. There have been a lot of accidents on it.

Chairman

The Senator might wish to raise this as a Commencement matter.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I have done that but I did not get a comprehensive reply.

Chairman

The Senator has received further ammunition from this discussion, I have no doubt.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I reiterate that this is the missing piece from the jigsaw of the country's network. A total of €500 million is being spent in the west on the N4 and the N5, and this section is between those roads. Whatever it takes, it needs to continue to planning permission stage. The funding to get it to that point is not significant, and the most significant drain on funding is, naturally enough, at the construction stage. I cannot overemphasise the fact this needs to happen for the entire north west and to ensure we live up to the Government’s commitment to balanced regional development. We are entitled to that access.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I welcome our guests from TII. We met Mr. Walsh in Athlone. He is a big campaigner for cycleways and one of my great passions is the Galway to Dublin cycleway, which is progressing. The bridge is being built and the sections of it that have been put in place are beautiful. I look forward to it being opened and to the next section being added. Are there any timelines on the final section being completed? I know that the team in the Ballinasloe office are working well.

Turning to the issue of tolls, I live in Ballinasloe, so I am familiar with the tolls at Enfield. On the way to Galway, tolls are paid at Cappataggle. This relates to the M4 and the M6. Am I correct in thinking Mr. Walsh stated that by 2033, there will be no further tolls on these sections of the M4 and the M6?

Mr. Peter Walsh

No, I am not saying there will be no tolls.

We are saying the toll scheme and by-laws are indefinite. The contract for that toll concession, which is a PPP concession-----

Senator Aisling Dolan

The public private partnership.

Mr. Peter Walsh

-----comes to an end in 2033.

Senator Aisling Dolan

There will, therefore, be a renegotiation at that time.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I am not saying that, no.

Chairman

It reverts to State ownership.

Mr. Peter Walsh

It reverts to State ownership. Project Bruce, which my colleague, Mr. Masterson, mentioned earlier, is contained within the climate action plan as part of the initiative on which we would be working with the Department to look at the entirety of the road network and the manner in which the State would most correctly address issues of climate action and emissions and how this would be managed.

Senator Aisling Dolan

It is about how it would be managed. It is obviously crucial because we need that motorway for industry and investment, which I am fighting for in the town of Ballinasloe. I am fighting to get companies into our Industrial Development Authority, IDA, business park. The commuters who come into Ballinasloe and go to work in Athlone, Galway or Dublin are using the motorway. A lot of the reasons are that we do not have frequent Irish Rail trains, for example. I know this is outside of TII's remit but we do not have the frequency in the west in terms of public transport. I am not even going to get into that part.

Chairman

We have agreed that we will do a body of work around it. All these PPPs will be coming back into State ownership over the next 30 years. We must address how exactly the State will approach dealing with that and the issues of tolls and climate change. The Senator is touching on something that we as a committee will look at in great depth.

Senator Aisling Dolan

That is very good. It is wonderful to hear. I thank the Chair so much. I will ask one final question if I may. My colleague mentioned a number of projects. I was there in October of last year outside of Tulsk when we were looking at the N5 Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge project. It was very difficult come March to hear that the company that won the tender at that time had gone into receivership. From what I understand about the investment at the time, however, the funds then went into receivership. That was a 34 km road going from Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge. It was going to bypass and make that route close to Frenchpark, Ballinagare, Tulsk and Strokestown safer. Then the funds were reallocated. Obviously, they had to be spent in that year. I understand that. However, that was €47 million to the national roads, €23 million to roads protection, €10 million into inflationary pressures and €40 million into other programmes.

My question is around the tendering. That went out to tender in April and the tender closed in May. Is there a timeline around that? I know that is being done with the local authority.

Mr. Peter Walsh

There is, yes. The tender did not close in May.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Right.

Mr. Peter Walsh

The date for receipt of tenders was originally set as 23 December. As requested by the tenderers, it has been extended. I cannot remember the date offhand. I think it is in February now.

Senator Aisling Dolan

It is currently still live, then.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes, absolutely.

Senator Aisling Dolan

It is currently live until February. Is the anticipation that once the tender is won, funding will again be allocated for this to progress next year?

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes.

Senator Aisling Dolan

This is, therefore, a priority project that will progress once the tender is won.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes. The Government went through the decision gate associated with proceeding to construction. That contract and project was approved for construction. We will continue to deliver on that approval.

Senator Aisling Dolan

That is absolutely fantastic news because I remember the absolute joy when I was there. It is such a dangerous stretch of road. The fantastic part is that there has even been funding for walkways and investment in Rathcroghan, the archaeological site very close to Tulsk. The challenge has really been around safety every single day. It is a really dangerous stretch.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I would like to take the opportunity to acknowledge the understanding of Government in that regard. The Senator talked about the benefit to cost ratio. That was a difficult one because we had to go 35 km in length off-line to avoid the archaeological site at Rathcroghan. It was not an easy decision for Government to say that was worthwhile but we believe it is.

Senator Aisling Dolan

That is fantastic. Mr. Dolan may know that the Rathcroghan site has won €445,000 to develop walkways under the outdoor recreational infrastructure scheme. There are 60 protected sites in that area and more than 300 monuments. The site dates from the Neolithic to the Iron Age. It is the setting of Táin Bó Cúailnge and the royal seat of Queen Medb. The opening chapter sets the reader in Cruachán, which is literally where Rathcroghan is. All I can say to Mr. Walsh is that by protecting our heritage and culture, TII has done great work. The Government has really invested in this as well. It is important to have that dangerous stretch made safe. To have this project moved forward next year with Roscommon County Council will be absolutely crucial. We would see a timeline of that tender being decided roughly around February or March of next year.

Mr. Peter Walsh

The tenders will be in in February.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Is there a decision timeframe?

Mr. Peter Walsh

It depends on how long it will take to do the tender assessment and get to contract award. Sometimes these things can take some time because a variety of issues crop up around tender clarifications and bonds and all sorts of issues. I do not want to give a definitive date. Generally, however, three months to get through that process will usually do it.

Senator Aisling Dolan

It could be May or June. Roughly half the budget will potentially be allocated in 2023 for construction if it runs to plan.

Mr. Peter Walsh

We will allocate funding as required to meet the costs associated with the project depending on the time. We do not want to take money from other projects. The allocation will be tailored to meet the progress that is likely to be made.

Senator Aisling Dolan

There was a generous allocation this year from the projects that won because this other project could not proceed. I would guess there are projects that probably benefited this year from the funding that was reallocated.

Mr. Peter Walsh

We like to make the most use, and we will, of any funding available. To do that, we move it around.

Chairman

It would be remiss of me not to deal with a couple of local matters in Limerick. Is there any update on the Adare bypass?

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Chairman, I am shocked.

Mr. Peter Walsh

As Tip O'Neill said, "All politics is local". I refer to the Adare bypass, the M20 and the Mackey roundabout, which I believe is at junction 18. There are huge problems in terms of congestion. I have been working with Limerick City Council and Limerick County Council. They have engaged with Transport Infrastructure Ireland, which allocated €50,000 to look at the junction.

I live in and am very familiar with Castletroy. We have great jobs and investment within the technological park but the backup from junction 18 at the Mackey roundabout is quite horrific at certain times. Mr. Walsh might perhaps deal with those issues of the Adare bypass and the M20. Is he familiar with the Mackey roundabout?

Mr. Peter Walsh

I am not personally familiar with the Mackey roundabout. Perhaps Mr. Maher could address that.

Mr. Pat Maher

That is at junction 28.

Chairman

I apologise; it is junction 28 and not junction 18. I thank Mr. Maher. I am more familiar with the local nuances. It is called the Mackey roundabout or Newport roundabout.

Mr. Pat Maher

As I understand it, the Chairman's question is whether we are going to do something about it.

Chairman

Yes.

Mr. Pat Maher

I do not know of any plans that we have.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Not directly in terms of network operations.

Chairman

Obviously, TII is open to the council making submissions to it in respect of this.

Mr. Pat Maher

If there are traffic management issues impacting the performance of the junction then yes, we are.

Chairman

In that context, does Mr. Walsh have an update on where the M20 project is at?

Mr. Peter Walsh

I do not have that information with me other than to say the M20 is progressing as a priority project.

Chairman

Okay.

Mr. Peter Walsh

What milestone we might achieve in the next few months, I cannot honestly say. I should have got an update before coming in this evening but I did not.

Chairman

I can come back on that. Can Mr. Walsh comment on the Adare bypass?

Mr. Peter Walsh

The Adare bypass is the subject of three judicial review applications at the moment. It has had two hearings and each time, it has been deferred for a number of weeks. The next hearing is in early December. Whether the judge is happy that the submissions are adequately developed or whether more time is given, we cannot say. The circumstance is part of a judicial process and outside of anything we can influence. All I can say is that it is-----

Chairman

If the outcome of the review is that the Adare bypass can proceed as is, where is TII at in now terms of appointing contractors and getting works under way? We are conscious that the Ryder Cup is coming down the road in 2027 or 2028. I am not certain as to which year it has been deferred. It is hugely significant in that context for Adare if they manage to bring it to Adare Manor. What is the timeframe? What is the timeframe if it comes through the due process intact?

Mr. Peter Walsh

Something I should highlight is that the parties seeking judicial review are also seeking a suspension of the work. Whether the latter is granted will have a significant influence on the timeline of the project's delivery. Limerick City and County Council have, with our support, been progressing to develop documents for advanced works as well as contract documents. Depending on the court's decision, that work will either continue or stop. If no leave for judicial review is given, the completion of the contract documents will progress. We will then seek to get the next gateway approval from the Government to proceed to tender.

It is difficult to put definitive timelines on these matters. In our experience from recent years, approval at the gateways takes approximately six months. A few years ago, I would have said that the tender process would take 26 weeks. Going by the Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge experience, though, tenderers are seeking longer periods. We are disinclined to ignore those requests. A tender period could now run to nine months or more. A number of years ago, our construction periods were typically 30 months. For the Adare bypass section, we could easily be looking at a further 12 months now. There is a reluctance among contractors-----

Chairman

With a construction period of three to three and a half years on top of the 15 months from getting through the gateway to putting the project out to tender, we could be looking at more than four years.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Walsh. I call Deputy Ó Murchú, but he must be brief. I am conscious of the time.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Funding for the N53 upgrade from just north of Hackballscross to Rassan is guaranteed into 2023. An oral hearing has not been held by An Bord Pleanála, however. Given that body's problems right now, there is a concern that funding will not be guaranteed if this situation continues.

What is the status of the Ardee bypass and the N2 upgrade? TII is in discussions on the M1 toll. Deputy Munster always raises the issue of the slip road to Drogheda. It is a disaster. Have we a sustainable means of dealing with road maintenance, given the issue with tolls?

Mr. Peter Walsh

The N52 Ardee bypass is the subject of a judicial review around the screening process for appropriate assessments. It is difficult to put a timeline on when the project will progress.

I am not familiar with the N53 project, so I will need to revert to the Deputy.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I am just seeking clarity on its funding. As with many projects, an oral hearing at An Bord Pleanála is required. Given that body's difficulties, though, a hearing has not been held yet.

Mr. Peter Walsh

There are never guarantees of funding. If there is no funding constraint, what we as an organisation have always done is to progress a project to the next stage of development. We will not leave the local authority holding a bill it cannot pay. If a project reaches the point where we can approve moving to land acquisition, we are committing to the consequential costs of that. The same applies in terms of construction. This might seem vague, but that is the way we have operated with these contracts. I do not believe we have ever let a local authority down in this regard, and we have no intention of starting.

Chairman

What about the general question on funding maintenance?

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

And the question on the slip road. I assume Mr. Walsh has no further information on the N2.

Mr. Peter Walsh

A number of years ago, we identified a particular level of funding that was required to maintain asset value. The business case is being refreshed at the moment and will return to the Government next year.

Mr. Pat Maher

Early next year.

Mr. Peter Walsh

In general, the funding for protection and renewal of the network has been better for the new roads section. There is a recognition that we need to maintain the asset value, but the funding is still below the level we would like it to be. We are not alone in that aspiration. Mr. Maher might wish to comment on this.

Chairman

When will the business case be going to the Government?

Mr. Pat Maher

It will go to the Department of Transport in the first instance.

Chairman

When will that be?

Mr. Pat Maher

Not this side of Christmas, but early in the new year.

Chairman

I would expect that to feed into the overall review of toll charges and so forth.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Do not make too great a promise.

Mr. Pat Maher

It will not be before Christmas. It-----

Chairman

That is fine. It is a matter to which we can revert.

Mr. Pat Maher

The part of the network that wears out the most is the pavement. We have to maintain our pavements. To follow up on Mr. Walsh's point with a general comment, we are relatively well funded in terms of our pavement programme. The Government took note of the strong case that was made in that regard. Where we fall below international norms is in current account funding. We plug that gap through the use of the toll revenue we generate, but as a general rule, Exchequer funding on the current account side is less than what our peers elsewhere have. We manage this situation, but there is a danger that, if we do not have enough funding for routine maintenance, the asset will deteriorate before we have the opportunity to intervene. As a nation, we need to be conscious of the principle that a stitch in time saves nine.

Chairman

Short, medium and long-term funding. Has Deputy Ó Murchú concluded? I am conscious of the time and that we need to leave.

Mr. Peter Walsh

The Deputy asked for an indication on the N2.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Yes, and the Drogheda slip road on the M1.

Chairman

We have gone past 10 p.m.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I realise I am on borrowed time.

Mr. Peter Walsh

We will have to promise to revert to the Deputy on those points. I do not have the information with me.

Chairman

The witnesses will revert to the Deputy.

Mr. Cathal Masterson

The issue of the Drogheda slip road arises from time to time, but no change is proposed.

Regarding future funding over the medium to long term, we are considering the IT infrastructure required for connected autonomous vehicles on the network. We are also engaging on the funding requirements for electric vehicle charging.

Chairman

Will that funding be covered in the business case as well?

Mr. Cathal Masterson

Not right now. They are separate matters in which we are engaging.

Chairman

We will revert on those.

I thank Mr. Walsh and his colleagues for assisting the committee, particularly on the issue of toll charges. In the short term, there needs to be a direct engagement between the operators of the PPPs, the toll companies, the Department and TII. I looked at the dates - 9 and 16 December will be Fridays. Friday, 16 December, would be too late whereas 9 December would allow ten days. As soon as possible, TII needs to make a firm decision that the toll charge increases will not be in place on 1 January.

Turning to the medium term, we will follow up regarding the second six months. We appreciate the witnesses' candour about there being discretion in TII's funding model around the M50. We will revert on this matter.

In the long term, there is a question over the State's funding model when the PPPs conclude.

We have to have that serious discussion.

I thank the witnesses for coming in so late. This is an important item and it was of huge public interest. We would look at the matter in terms of the first six months, but inclusion as quickly as possible. More particularly, we would be looking at the order of 9 December or thereabouts. That is about ten days’ time. We will then look at the next six months and come back on other issues as well with the witnesses on it.

With that, the meeting is now adjourned. The next meeting of the joint committee will be in public session tomorrow in committee room 2 at 1.30 p.m. with Ryanair, with Michael O’Leary and Eddie Wilson coming in, on our consideration of the national aviation policy.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.10 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 30 November 2022.