Joint Committee on Transport and Communications díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 14 Feb 2024

Large-scale Capital Projects: Transport Infrastructure Ireland

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The purpose of today's meeting is to engage with Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, to discuss large-scale capital projects and also its operations generally. On behalf of the committee, I am very pleased to welcome from TII, Mr. Peter Walsh, chief executive officer, and Mr. Nigel O'Neill, director of capital projects. They are both very welcome.

I will read a quick note on privilege before we begin. All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or identity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not be able to permit a member to participate where they not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member participating via Microsoft Teams that prior to making a contribution to the meeting, they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

I now invite Mr. Walsh to make his opening statement.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach and members of the committee for their invitation to attend today. I am joined by my colleague, Mr. Nigel O’Neill, director of capital programme. I understand that the committee wishes to discuss large-scale capital projects. Before providing an update, I would like to briefly describe the duties and functions assigned to TII through legislation. The National Roads Authority, NRA, operating as Transport Infrastructure Ireland since 2015, was established under the Roads Act 1993.

It is the general duty of TII to secure the provision of a safe and efficient network of national roads, having regard to the needs of all users. Under the infrastructure guidelines, previously known as the public spending code, TII is the approving authority for national road projects and works in partnership with local authorities, which are the road authorities for all roads, including national roads.

In 2015, the NRA was merged with the Railway Procurement Agency. The Roads Act 2015 added the function of securing the provision of, or providing, such light railway, such as Luas, and metro railway infrastructure as may be determined by the National Transport Authority, NTA. The NTA has the statutory function of providing metro and light railway infrastructure. In doing so, the NTA arranges for TII to secure the provision of metro and light rail infrastructure. The NTA is also the approving authority for public transport infrastructure and services. For that reason, I will be deferring to the NTA in regard to light railway and metro projects.

In September 2021, TII became the approving authority for greenways on behalf of the Department of Transport. We have prepared a briefing paper providing an update on delivery of the NDP's national roads and greenways programmes. I hope members of the committee find it useful.

Under section 24 of the Roads Act, the Minister sets terms and conditions in respect of grants from moneys provided by the Oireachtas towards national roads capital projects and the current expenditure of TII. The amounts of the 2024 Exchequer capital and current grants for national roads, and conditions thereof, were issued to TII on 31 January. The Exchequer capital allocation for new roads projects is based on the following prioritisation: one, maintenance of existing national roads assets, helping to keep them to a safe and robust standard; two, progression of projects currently under construction and those close to construction; three, progression of the major projects at pre-approval gate 2 in the infrastructure guidelines; and, four, for projects further back in the development pipeline, that is, at pre-approval gate 1 in the infrastructure guidelines, the focus of the remaining funding should be on progressing bypasses and other projects that will contribute to supporting the national planning framework's national strategic outcome, NSO, 1, compact growth, and achieving the objectives of the Government's town centre first policy.

Safety is the priority for the Government. Therefore, it has prioritised funding for protection and renewal of the national roads network in the national development plan. For 2024, the Government is making Exchequer grants of approximately €298 million available for both current and capital protection and renewal works. Additionally, €97 million of Exchequer grants is being provided to TII for public private partnerships, PPPs, that are all in the operational phase. In regard to new roads, the Exchequer capital grants to be provided to TII for 2024 amount to approximately €147 million, subject to the condition that this funding is allocated toward those projects listed by the Minister, as referred to in the appendix. For greenways, the Exchequer capital grant to be provided to TII for 2024 is €72 million.

TII provides allocations to local authorities on an annual basis in order that they can deliver on their road authority functions on behalf of TII in respect of national roads and greenways. Before the end of this month, TII will issue the grant allocation booklets for national roads and greenways to all local authorities. Those allocations are an indication of the progress TII believes is possible on each national roads or greenways project or programme during 2024. The allocations will be used to reimburse the relevant local authorities for costs incurred in accordance with national roads and greenways chargeability requirements. If the progression of any national road or greenways project or programme is impeded or priorities change, the funding will be redistributed by TII, in accordance with its statutory remit, to other national roads or greenways projects or programmes.

I take this opportunity to acknowledge the achievements of the local authorities and their civil engineering contractors, and my colleagues in TII, on the projects that opened recently, which I will outline. The N40 Dunkettle interchange was opened by An Tánaiste on 12 February. The Grand Canal greenway phase 1, Aylmers Bridge to Sallins, was opened by the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, on 10 January. The N59 Moycullen bypass was opened by An Taoiseach on 11 December 2023. The N22 Ballyvourney to Macroom road development was opened by An Taoiseach on 6 November 2023. The Great Western Greenway extension from Achill Sound to Cashel was opened by the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Chambers, on 1 September 2023. The Athlone greenway at River Shannon Bridge was opened by the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, on 8 August 2023. The N17-R320 Lisduff junction was opened by the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Calleary, on 28 July 2023. The New Ross to Glenmore section of the South East Greenway was opened by the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, on 25 July 2023. The N5 Westport to Turlough road project was opened by the Taoiseach on 15 June 2023. The safety improvement project on the N24 Limerick to Tipperary roundabout at Beary's Cross was opened by the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, on 14 June 2023.

I turn now to enablers for delivery of the NDP. When I addressed the committee in June last year, I provided my views on challenges that must be overcome if Ireland is to deliver on its NDP objectives for transport infrastructure. At the time, several reforms had been put in place. From my perspective, the reforms to inflation risk sharing and other measures now included in the State's standard forms of contract have supported the increased interest we now see in tendering for construction contracts by Ireland's civil engineering sector. Furthermore, the increased resourcing allocated to the State's planning system appears to be speeding up planning decisions.

It is important that the State continues to drive out delays to the delivery of transport infrastructure. Therefore, I believe continued progress is needed in the following areas: one, ensuring alignment of stakeholders, especially State bodies and State-owned enterprises; two, continuing to review and update the State's standard form of contract to support the viability of the civil engineering sector; and, three, ensuring a reasonably stable supply of tendering opportunities for the civil engineering sector in order that capabilities can be maintained and developed. With respect to the last point, the windfall capital fund announced by the Government will be of great importance to avoid stop-start funding of infrastructure, especially during downturns.

That concludes my opening statement. My colleague and I will endeavour to provide any further information members of the committee may require.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Walsh. I will now take questions from members in accordance with the speaking roster. The first speaker is Deputy O'Rourke. He has ten minutes.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I welcome the witnesses and thank Mr. Walsh for his update. I will begin with questions on a couple of local projects before picking up on some of the points in his statement. People locally are keen to see the Slane bypass progress. Where is that project at from TII's perspective? The real question from the community is how quickly it can be delivered and whether the funding is there to make it happen.

Mr. Peter Walsh

There is a brief update on the Slane bypass project in the information pack provided to the committee. The project has been submitted to An Bord Pleanála for planning approval, which was published on 6 December. The period for submissions from the public is currently due to end on 16 February. We do not really know how long An Bord Pleanála will take to decide on whether there should be an oral hearing, which I imagine there will be, when that hearing will happen and what its duration will be. We are very much in the hands of An Bord Pleanála in that regard. We are fully committed to the project. We are very happy that it included urban realm elements.

Part of the problem for An Bord Pleanála last time around was it was hard to see what was going to happen to the village once the traffic was out of it. A lot more definition has been brought to that. There is still some doubt as to where the funding for the urban realm works will come from because under the Roads Act, on the day a new national road opens, the old road ceases to be a national road. For that reason, the NRA and TII do not have a remit to fund the works there. There is a political desire to see works of this nature included in the scope of the project. Certainly, from our perspective, we would be very happy to extend our remit to take that on because it feels half done not to do so.

On where we stand for funding for the project, we do not have sight of funding beyond this year's allocation. In 2018, we had an indication of what the funding would be from 2021-25 and from 2025-30. Provided the review of the NDP maintains the €4 billion earmarked for capital projects in the period 2026-30, we would see it comfortably fitting within the programme of works.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Is Mr. Walsh saying it depends on-----

Mr. Peter Walsh

We cannot determine or be absolutely clear that the money will be provided. We do not know what our allocation will be for 2025 at present.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I thank Mr. Walsh for that. He does not know how long it will take An Bord Pleanála to decide whether there will be an oral hearing but, in terms of the planning process, how long do projects generally take? He referenced that in his opening statement.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Historically, we have seen a project, from the date of submission through to a decision, being achieved in or around a six-month period. An Bord Pleanála has an aspiration to provide a decision within 18 weeks of the closing date of receipt of observations. It was not far off that for a long number of years but it then started to drift very considerably and could go to years. We believe there is now an improvement on that. We are just observing other oral hearings for other projects and not ours, but the process appears to be speeding up. I am hoping that we see decisions much more quickly.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

At that stage, if it goes according to plan, with planning granted following an oral hearing, it will then be a matter of a green light for funding and the project will be ready to move. Is that the case?

Mr. Peter Walsh

That is it. The project is very close to a world heritage site so we do not know what might happen, including a judicial review or appeals to other courts, such as European courts or whatever. It could be contentious. We do not know.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

There is approval gate 3 as well.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I thank Mr. O'Neill. The project has to go through two more approval gates. It has gone through approval gate 1, which allows it to be submitted to An Bord Pleanála. Under the new guidelines, approval gate 2 is a matter for the Minister for Transport. This is where we will seek approval to go to tender for the project. Once the tenders are in, there is approval gate 3 that may have to go to Cabinet for approval, depending on the value of those tenders. I should not underestimate those approval gates.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I will ask about a separate project that is not on the TII list before the committee. It is to get a sense about it because it is highly frustrating for people in the county where I live. The Rath roundabout to Kilmoon Cross project has now been deprioritised, to use my words. It is a frustration because it seems as if nothing is happening on it. We have discussed this previously in respect of the funding and where it is or is not. I raised with the local authority whether it was going to come up with alternatives in the meantime. From the local authority's perspective, it has a proposal it believes is the right one. It is understandably not inclined to come off that. Has the TII any advice or reflections for the local authority on where next for projects like this? It is undoubtedly a significant congestion problem. It is on the radio every day as a congestion hotspot. It is very frustrating for people using that section of road. Notwithstanding all the challenges of climate, and the need for modal shift and increasing the number of people on public transport, people want a solution.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I do not have any very clever things to say on that. The allocations for 2024 are conditioned, in accordance with section 24 of the Roads Act, to be used to progress projects on a list of projects. The N2-Rath roundabout to Kilmoon Cross is not one of those projects. I heard the Deputy previously raise the notion, if it is not to be a capacity enhancement issue, of what it is to be because it is not enough to simply do nothing. If it is to be a public transport enhancement, it would be a matter for the NTA as part of the transport strategy for the greater Dublin area. We would be happy to support the project in whatever way we can as regards its contribution to the national road network but I am afraid I do not have any very clever solution to it.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I thank Mr. Walsh for that.

As we discussed previously, the NTA has been helpful regarding the impact and cost of inflation. Will Mr. Walsh expand on the final points in his statement on the current areas of focus? In fairness, the authority has acknowledged progress on the nature of tenders. Will he expand on the final points he made regarding where the focus should be now?

Mr. Peter Walsh

We believed it was important to acknowledge that what was said previously was heard. Changes were made and a provision that reflected the impact of inflation was included in the public works contract, which has helped. We have had derogations from the use of public works contracts on few projects, the M28 Cork to Ringaskiddy project being the most recent, and a very significant level of interest from contractors to seek shortlisting for that project. They expressed interest and sought to be shortlisted. It is the first competition we have had for a while where we have had good competition. It will be interesting to see how that develops.

I strongly believe, as do my colleagues, that an even fairer share of risk-taking than is contemplated in the public works contract is a better way to go. If we insist on transferring all the risk onto the contractor, we will get fewer and fewer contractors to take that on. We saw it in the Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge project not that long ago, where one of the parties to the joint venture pulled out because its parent company undertakes a very clear overview process in respect of risk and risk transfer. The company just decided it could not take it on and walked away. Thankfully, we were left with one contractor that had properly concluded the competitive process, and we were able to get Government approval and award the contract. It is going ahead but it very nearly did not. We should take that risk transfer element seriously and look at what is a fair way of sharing the risk.

The other aspect of it is that while we have not really seen the outcome of changes at An Bord Pleanála yet, the time projects are taking to go through the planning process is an issue.

I appreciate that people feel changes to the planning Bill will address it and I am aware that it is a very voluminous attempt at reforming the legislation. We still see significant elements of concern within the proposed new Bill and will be making submissions as part of the consultation process around that.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

In what sort of areas?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I will ask Deputy O'Rourke to conclude but he can finish on this question.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

It is a question that begs to be answered.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I probably should not have said it. As I do not have with me the fully thought-out submission, I should not be just speaking off the top of my head on something as important as-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We have a lot more stuff to go yet. We are only starting. I thank Deputy O'Rourke and Mr. Walsh.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I welcome Mr. Walsh and Mr. O'Neill. I thank them for being here. Having listened to Mr. Walsh talking about allocation and budget, will he tell us how other countries operate with major capital projects like the those we are talking about? With regard to annual budgets, I do not know how Mr. Walsh as the chief executive officer is expected to plan five, ten or 15 years into the future. Has TII looked at the rest of Europe and how they manage their major capital infrastructure projects in the transport area?

Mr. Peter Walsh

I cannot speak authoritatively on the means of management around their major capital programmes. I believe there is not the same level of uncertainty. We do have contact through the European organisation CEDR for road authorities throughout Europe. It is not that they are not suffering constraints in funding - a lot of the countries are dealing with ageing infrastructure and are very concerned about the amount of money made available to renew that infrastructure - but certainly there is not the level of uncertainty year to year. Having said that, where contracts are entered into here, the State honours them. Having gone through the approvals and awarded the contracts I would not anticipate any uncertainty about funding being provided in order to meet those obligations. Some years ago we did have multi-annual funding programmes and that is very helpful because it does allow one to plan in a much more confident way. I believe the Department of Transport aspires to providing us with multi-annual funding profiles in the order of four years. We have yet to see it and discussions are under way at the moment but it would be very desirable. I cannot say, however, that I could point to another jurisdiction and say exactly how it works there. Perhaps my colleague could.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

Pat is the expert on that.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Okay.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I will come back to Mr. Walsh in a moment. While it is for the committee to decide at a later stage, I believe we should look for an expert to come in here and look at multi-annual funding. When we are drafting the budget for 2025 we should look at all of the projects that TII currently has on hand and the cost of those projects and then add an addendum to allow TII to expand into new areas. That addendum should be multi-annual. It should be an annual thing. It is outrageous that TII is waiting for the stroke of a pen some time in October to know whether it can still live for another year. I commend Mr. Walsh and his people on continuing to keep the projects moving when TII is uncertain about the future. We need to bring in some experts and see how it is planned across Europe.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

If members agree, we can put that on the committee's work programme and look at that concept. It is worth a look.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I can assure the committee that we provide to the Department multi-annual profiles associated with every project. The information is there across the whole matrix of projects extending out to ten years and certainly to the end of the project.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Before we set it up there is one point to make on this general area. It is fair to say that the number of projects on the TII books that, while not necessarily being shovel ready are projects people have said are worthy of consideration, is much greater than the budgeting being suggested by a multiple of maybe five, six or ten.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I live in the Leopardstown area and I drive down the Dundrum bypass many times. People always remark to me that it is the most expensive piece of road in Europe-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Per kilometre, not necessarily in total.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Yes. Because TII is responsible for major infrastructure projects like this, has Mr. Walsh any explanation as to why projects in Ireland seem to cost multiples of what they cost in other countries?

Mr. Peter Walsh

I dispute that for a start. Right through the early 2000s, we were building motorway for in or around €5 million per kilometre. We did do comparisons with other European countries.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

It is a construction cost.

Mr. Peter Walsh

It is a construction cost. I take it the Senator was talking about construction costs.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Yes.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Because the land costs and so on-----

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Yes, that is a different ball game.

Mr. Peter Walsh

The main factor differentiating between countries was the cost of labour. Everything else was pretty much the same. It was very good value. Our own assessment of that at the time was that we had continuity of work. It allowed for the contractors to plan and resource, and maintain that resource. There are other factors-----

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

The cost of land and the planning appeals and all of that. I am glad that Mr. Walsh has put this on the record because it is a constant thing that is thrown at me by members of the public "Why are we paying ten times more?"

On the western rail corridor, which I am sure the witnesses are well used to, I still believe we should have a train from Letterkenny to Cork, Waterford or Dublin, and wherever else. There is a particular issue in relation to the Claremorris-Collooney stretch----

Mr. Peter Walsh

I must say to the Senator that TII does not deal with mainline rail.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I am sorry, I took it that it did. I will take that out.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That would be for Irish Rail.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Yes. TII deals with metro and Luas. The Galway light rail system has been on the boil since I was a boy in Salthill and is still on the boil. The bypass is constantly being chucked out. We get so far and-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Before the Senator spends too much of his time on this I just want to clarify with Mr. Walsh that in his opening statement he said TII was deferring all metro queries to the National Transport Authority.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Is it light rail and not metro?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Are the witnesses okay to talk about light rail queries but not metro queries? Is that right?

Mr. Peter Walsh

It is not so much that. TII is the equivalent of the local authority from a national roads point of view in that the local authority would be the sponsoring agency. The TII and the NRA are the sanctioning authorities. I am answerable to the members in the committee for national roads. With light rail and metro the NTA is answerable to the committee.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I just do not want Senator Craughwell wasting his speaking time asking questions the witnesses cannot answer.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Exactly. We are down the food chain. The decision-making around the strategy that would be deployed for the roads-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

So Senator Craughwell's question is better put to the NTA when we bring them in.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Walsh. I will give the Senator some more time.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I have a final question. Mr. Walsh mentioned planning. When I hear the word "planning" I feel it would be great if the ground opened up and swallowed us all. We seem to be extremely poor at engagement with the elected representative local authority members - not with the local authority itself. We ultimately find ourselves in the situation where there are objections to planning. One member of the local authority might go rogue and decide to take out an appeal against planning or go to the courts with it. How much actual engagement does TII have with elected representatives, apart from Oireachtas Members in here?

Mr. Peter Walsh

TII is not a planning authority.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I appreciate that.

Mr. Peter Walsh

We are very conscious that we must observe our legislative limitations at all times. We are a consultation body. If any proposed development impacts on a national road, we will comment on it. Engagement with a developer or with any particular representative is carried out through the local authority. We have protocols set down in order to ensure there is no sense of favouritism towards any particular developer or representative. When TII receives a query or request for consultation, we ask that engagement be organised through the planning authority, in which case we are happy to attend. We let the planning authority decide who should come along. If a matter of interest within a constituency is raised by a particular representative of that constituency, we ask that the planning authority organises for all of the elected representatives for the constituency to attend the meeting because, again, we do not want to be thought to be giving one message to one elected representative and not to others. If it is a matter of national importance, we ask for it to be referred to the appropriate Minister. We have protocols as to who we meet as groups and how we meet them.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

If I am hearing Mr. Walsh correctly, if TII is operating in a particular area - we will say County Cork for the hell of it - it will deal with the executive of Cork County Council and that council's planning office. However, it is up to the county council to decide whether the actual elected representatives on Cork County Council should attend. Does Mr. Walsh see anything wrong with that? If TII was planning a project in Cork, would he prefer to have a meeting like the one we are having today with the elected representatives?

Mr. Peter Walsh

When it comes to planning a project, if we are arranging for a local authority to develop a project to address a particular issue on a national road on our behalf, consultation between all local representatives and the project team occurs continuously. It is a very important aspect of the development of any project that we understand the impacts of that project. They are not always obvious. We have certainly found it immensely useful to engage as comprehensively as possible with all local representatives.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

As Mr. Walsh can imagine, as Members of the Seanad, we get complaints from time to time that county councillors feel bypassed and excluded when decisions are being made so I am glad to hear that TII is happy enough to have them attend and to listen to what they have to say.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I hope Mr. Walsh will pardon the pun about being bypassed.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I will leave it at that. I thank Mr. Walsh and Mr. O'Neill very much.

Deputy Michael Lowry

I also welcome Mr. Walsh and Mr. O'Neill to our meeting and thank them for their informative presentation. My experience of TII has been good in that it is open and approachable and we normally get very accurate information from it. The general experience with TII as regards projects, which is no fault of the witnesses themselves, is that the system is very bureaucratic and cumbersome and that the extensive protocols involved in getting a project off the ground are painstakingly slow. The public find it difficult to understand that. It takes a long time to get from the lead-in to the approval stage and then we have the major problems with An Bord Pleanála.

I will ask a question on An Bord Pleanála. TII obviously has contact with An Bord Pleanála. Following that body's revamp, does TII expect an improvement in the timescales for decisions? How many projects on TII's books are with An Bord Pleanála and awaiting a decision? What is the average timeframe for such applications?

I am obviously going to get parochial here. At the start, Mr. Walsh said that the general duty of TII is "to secure the provision of a safe and efficient network of national roads". As I have regularly done in the past, I will bring to his attention a section of road on the N62 between Thurles and Horse and Jockey. The section at Turtulla Cross in particular is extremely dangerous. We have already had a fatality there and we have had numerous and regular accidents. What compounds the problem at that particular junction is the presence of a very successful regional ETB training centre. This has resulted in large volumes of traffic. Something like 400 students come there every day. There is no footpath from the main road down to the training centre. I have raised this with our council and I know it has been in contact with TII. I hope that this will be given priority, that the junction will be improved and that access, particularly pedestrian access, to the training centre will be improved to make that junction much safer.

Second, in 2008, which is a long time ago, a Government led by former Taoiseach, Brian Cowen, had a bypass for Thurles on its agenda. I had ensured this was progressed to a stage at which a very significant amount of work had been done. All of the research had been conducted. We had a preferred route. The financial crash then came in 2010 and the then Government of Fine Gael and Labour removed the project from the list. The design centre in Mungret was closed. Thurles now faces a serious issue. It is choked with traffic and it is congested. This presents a cost for businesspeople. The time it takes to get from one side of the town to the other is just ridiculous. We are at the stage where something has to be done. It is not in the current national development plan. When does that plan expire? When will it be reviewed? Will TII look at including Thurles in that plan? As I have said, it is a priority. I had brought it to a stage where it should have got the go-ahead. It is understandable that projects were dropped because of the financial position of the economy at the time but I do not know why it went from being a priority project to simply disappearing off the list completely. I would like that to be reviewed. I would like Thurles bypass to be placed back on the agenda.

With regard to the N24, I received a number of commitments from the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, in respect of a bypass for Tipperary town. Tipperary town has since been removed from my constituency but I have an interest in ensuring that the project is prioritised. TII recently announced details of the preferred route for the N24 from Waterford to Limerick. I have contended for some time that the Tipperary town section of that carriageway should be prioritised as one of the first sections to be delivered. I have publicly stated my reasons for that on numerous occasions. It was accepted by the Minister and TII that it should happen. Will the witnesses give me an update on that?

Mr. Peter Walsh

I do not have an extensive list of the projects that are with An Bord Pleanála at the moment to hand. There are not very many. The Galway city ring road is back with An Bord Pleanála, as is the N2 bypass at Slane, which was mentioned earlier. The N52 Ardee bypass is at judicial review and may or may not go back to An Bord Pleanála.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

It did not come from An Bord Pleanála in the first place. It was a local area planning process in the local authority.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes, it was the screening element but, depending on the judicial review, it might end up with the board. There are probably several other minor projects but I do not have a comprehensive list. Does Mr. O'Neill have more information about what we have with the board? A lot of them have come out-----

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

We will go through the tables and extract them.

Deputy Michael Lowry

Has TII got any indication from An Bord Pleanála that things will improve as regards the time factor?

Mr. Peter Walsh

I might go back a little bit. The Deputy said that we are in contact with An Bord Pleanála. We are not. The reason we are not is that we are always anxious to ensure we are not seen to be interfering with the planning process in any way. We are not allowed to engage with An Bord Pleanála when a project is live with it.

We have had contact during pre-qualification for a couple of our own projects but we have not had that of late. I will not talk about MetroLink but it is the one that is currently with An Bord Pleanála and the oral hearing is starting on Monday. It was submitted in September 2022, so members can judge themselves how quickly things are being turned around.

Deputy Michael Lowry

In general terms, these large-scale projects are hugely important to the infrastructure and economy of the country. They are prioritised by national Government and TII is the principal agency. Surely TII has conveyed to An Bord Pleanála, without mentioning a specific project, the necessity and desirability to get an improvement in the time factors, that is, how long it takes to do the assessment and give a decision.

Mr. Peter Walsh

During the pre-application consultation with An Bord Pleanála, we made it clear that delays to the project, given the scale of it, could be measured in time alone at about €250 million a year. On that basis, we felt a year to turn it around would not be bad and we programmed accordingly. We reported to the national development plan delivery board that we were suggesting a one-year turnaround and if that was going to be any different, it was outside of anything we were planning. It has been a year and half waiting for an oral hearing. I am not sure what else I should or could say.

Regarding the N62 and the issue of footpaths, I need to clarify if the Deputy is talking about a national road. If it is outside of a national road, we have no remit and it would be difficult therefore for us to get involved. The Deputy mentioned a footpath down to a training centre but I do not know if that is along a national road. I do not know the area well enough.

Deputy Michael Lowry

I would appreciate if Mr. Walsh could make inquiries and send me a written report on it.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Sure.

Deputy Michael Lowry

This is the N62. The main problem is the need to improve the junction coming on to the N62. Mr. Walsh’s engineers should be able to report on that.

Mr. Peter Walsh

We will. Regarding the projects, we do two road safety exercises, one of which is reactive while the other is proactive. The reactive one is where we gather the information around collisions and we share that with the relevant roads authority. We give Tipperary County Council statistics annually relating to collisions on the national road network. If that junction was showing up as an accident cluster, it would then be a matter for the roads authority and Tipperary County Council to raise and develop a proposal as to how to address it. We would adjudicate on it. We would review it and if it was thought to suitable, fund it and progress from there. The other exercise is where we inspect the roads and, from those inspections, raise areas of concern. Again, it goes back to the roads authority, which will tell us whether it feels an intervention is warranted and what that might be. We work closely in partnership with the local authorities.

Deputy Michael Lowry

What about the Thurles bypass?

Mr. Peter Walsh

The Thurles bypass is not on the NDP, as the Deputy correctly said. A review of the NDP is scheduled next year but I think it is likely to happen this year. It would be worthwhile for any roads authority to make absolutely clear to us where it feels an element of the national road is deficient or warrants intervention. This is the national secondary bypass. As I said, it is not part of the current NDP. We do not make policy; we deliver it. We contribute to the national development plan thinking as it is being developed, but it has been developed and the list of projects has been adopted. It is not open to us to take in something that was not favoured by the political leadership of the country to include in an NDP and replace it with a different project. It would have to be considered as part of the review. I encourage engagement with the process.

Deputy Michael Lowry

We have made a submission and we will be making further submissions. Is Mr. Walsh anticipating that review will be undertaken in the current year?

Mr. Peter Walsh

It is due to happen in 2025 but my sense from engagement with the Department is that it might happen sooner.

Deputy Michael Lowry

Regarding funding, I was surprised to hear Mr. Walsh say that he still does not know the capital allocation for 2025. A small business has some indication. To run a business properly, you need to have some indication of what your outlay will be for the following year. I could not run my business on the basis that I did not know what my capital outlay was going to be in 2025.

Mr. Peter Walsh

We know what our capital outlay could be. We have a matrix of projects, programmes and activities and, depending on the funding available to us, we can do a combination of those things. We will progress whatever we can within the available funding.

Deputy Michael Lowry

Before Mr. Walsh moves on from this issue, the Thurles bypass was on the list but was then removed by the political authority at the time. It has not got back onto it since. As I understand what Mr. Walsh is saying, to use his own phrase, TII has “a matrix of projects”, which does not include the Thurles bypass, that have not been funded and would require additional substantial funds to get under way. Effectively, the Thurles bypass would have to jump that queue and receive political priority to get on that list. Is that a good assessment of the position?

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes, I think so.

Deputy Michael Lowry

I has a final question on the bypass for Tipperary town.

Mr. Peter Walsh

It is included in the projects to be allocated funding in this year and it is part of the N24 Cahir to Limerick junction project. We have agreed with the local authority that the Tipperary bypass element would be, if at all possible, advanced in isolation. However, it needs to work the bypass into the overall scheme. I am not close enough to the project to know exactly which stage it is at but it is down for funding. We are not in a position to indicate what the funding is at the moment because local authorities have to be told first, and we think that will be done next week. We are currently putting the booklets together.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

It is design and environmental evaluation.

Deputy Michael Lowry

Could Mr. O'Neill please repeat that?

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

It is design and environmental evaluation. That is the stage it is embarking on now.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is now my slot. As I said, being a Senator means you can be parochial because you have an electorate right across the State. I reached out to some councillors across the State, asking them various questions because TII was coming before the committee. I got a phenomenally positive response in terms of interest in projects. The TII representatives might not be especially impressed with some of the queries from councillors because frustration is probably the main thing. Eaten bread is soon forgotten. We acknowledge all of the good things. We all remember a time before there was a motorway network – most of us in any event, although perhaps not some of our younger members. Deputy O’Connor might not remember the time before the motorway network. Some of us remember driving through loads of towns to get to Kerry, Cork, Limerick, Mayo, Galway and so on. The road network is far improved from what it was. However, there is much still in the process.

TII, on behalf of the NTA, administers the Luas and metro projects. Is that correct? The NTA has the budget and TII is implements the budget and the priorities.

Mr. Peter Walsh

We deliver the projects on the NTA's behalf.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Even though the Rail Procurement Agency, RPA, was absorbed into TII, it is really the NTA that is driving. If I were to say that we want a Luas to go to north Wicklow, that would be a matter for the NTA.

Mr. Peter Walsh

That is correct.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The TII will be the boot on the ground delivering the project but it is not its call as to whether it will be done.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I have some queries and the TII witnesses have agreed to take them and give me written responses. I will give a flavour of them because there are quite a few. Councillors, particularly in areas of great expansion and large population growth, are looking at the road network. For example, near me, in Sandyford, Stepaside, Ballyogan and Kiltiernan, there is lots of stuff happening. This does not necessarily relate to national roads but the area has major population growth. Capacity on the green line, which again is a matter for the NTA, was queried by Councillor Jim O'Leary in Dundrum and Councillor Tommy Murphy in Glencullen. Councillor Racheal Batten asked about the metro.

Equally, Councillor Sean Drew asked about pedestrian crossings on the N52. Pedestrian crossings are something TII deals with, even though we tend to think of national roads as big wide motorways with no pedestrians but there are main roads through the centres of many villages and towns.

Train capacity and metro are not the responsibility of TII but many roads were raised with me such as the N81 Tallaght to Hollywood Cross, raised by Councillor Edward Timmins in Wicklow. Councillor Shane Talty raised the junction at Blake's Corner in Ennistymon. Councillor Rita McInerney raised that there are not enough spines off the M18. Councillor Eddie Fitzpatrick in County Offaly raised the N52 link between the N4 and the N6. Councillor Seamus Butler in County Longford raised an ongoing concern about the N4 prioritisation from Mullingar to the County Leitrim border, with more than 20 deaths in the past 15 years. Perhaps TII can comment on them.

The Knockcroghery bypass was raised by Councillor John Keogh in County Roscommon. Councillor Shane P. O'Reilly raised parking around the N3 and that there is not enough provision for people who are trying to car-pool and so on. Councillor Donagh Killilea in Galway raised the Tuam to Sligo route following the success of the Limerick to Tuam part of the M17. Councillor Brendan Mulroy in County Mayo raised pedestrian crossings in Newport - it is a national road. Councillor Mark Duffy in County Mayo raised the improvement between Ballina and Foxford and Swinford. I know the road well as one of my grandparents came from Swinford and another came from Ballina. It is an area I know well.

We tend to think of some of the motorway networks as being to the southern half of the country but I had five or six queries concerning County Donegal from councillors Donal Kelly, Ciaran Brogan, Michael McBride, Michael McClafferty who all asked about the TEN-T project priority route for Donegal. Councillor Ger Frisby in County Kilkenny asked about the N25 Waterford to New Ross section. Councillor Pat Dunphy asked about the N24 Waterford to Cahir project. Councillor Jim Ryan asked about the bypass in Thurles about which Deputy Lowry spoke. Councillor Michael Cahill asked about the Ring of Kerry and said it is not sufficient for the level of traffic. There are a lot of tour buses on that road. It is a narrow, tricky road. I also had a query from Councillor Mikey Sheehy in County Kerry about greenways. I had not been getting a lot of greenway queries. He also asked about the N86 Tralee to Dingle section. He said it is not in a great condition for the number of tourists it takes. A concept which Deputy Crowe has raised before - he may not raise it again - is the issue about the N71 past Skibbereen and TII objecting to almost every house application on a national road. I had another query from County Donegal from, I think, Councillor Michael McClafferty, about a low volume road. They feel it should be judged differently in terms of TII objecting to all housing on a national road and that a one-size-fits-all approach does not necessarily cover it. I had another query from Councillor Liam Madden in County Cork about the M20 and all the issues that go with it.

Separate from that, it was raised recently that TII seems to have bought up a lot of houses for CPOs, which are perhaps empty at the moment. There is a question about whether they could be used in the short term. I do not know how many there are. There are road safety issues in how much TII liaises with the Road Safety Authority in prioritising accidents. There is also the question of the tolls on the M50. Many people are not paying the tolls and perhaps are getting away with it. There is a lot in that. We have another two hours in the sitting. We will have a second and third slot.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I think you forgot a couple, Chairman.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

At some point, I will let Deputy Crowe in.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

You must. You let loads of your colleagues in.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I would never say Deputy Crowe wanted to contemplate the Seanad but you never know. I hope he will not have to. There are a lot of issues. It is a flavour of the appetite from local authority members, on behalf of their constituents, in an interest in road projects, greenways, road safety, pedestrians and bypasses. Everybody, every day moves around. Of course, we talk about active travel. Irish Rail and the NTA were at the committee and the NTA will be in again. Many parts of Ireland are incredibly car-dependent and that is not going to change any time soon. It is important the roads they have are quality, usable, safe, reliable and fit for purpose. I am around long enough to remember when lots of the roads in the Republic of Ireland were terrible and we all compared them with the North, which was much better. That is not the case any more in the quality of the surface. I give full credit for that. I will give TII these queries and it can deal with them. Will the witnesses touch on the issues and, generally, how it prioritises projects? There is a lot of fear. There are so many projects. If TII had six or ten times its budget, it would have enough projects to keep it going. Is it clear to people on this list how low or high they are on the list - like in a school, are you number three on the waiting list or number 300? Is that published?

Mr. Peter Walsh

It is not, for a number of reasons, largely because there is not a list. Projects are moved for a variety of reasons. I will come back to that, if I may. A few of the issues the Leas-Chathaoirleach raised probably have generic responses that might be worth sharing with the committee. One concerns the notion that TII objects to one-off housing in low-trafficked areas.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

On national roads, full stop.

Mr. Peter Walsh

On national roads, full stop. We systematically remind the planning authority of its obligation to follow Government guidance on the preservation of capacity and safety on national roads. In following that guidance, the local authority may see that the introduction of a new junction or new access point might be detrimental to the safety of the road. In areas where traffic volumes are high and we perceive there to be a very real threat, we will appeal a planning approval in that circumstance but that is not universal. We observe the guidelines around sensitivity to low-trafficked areas. At times, it is represented to us that the planning authority makes reference to TII's objection - hides behind is the wrong term - but in fact it is the application of a national policy. I hope that illustrates things. There were a few other generic queries that struck me at the time but I cannot remember what they were.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

I can talk a bit about national development plan objectives. A key stakeholder for TII is the local authorities. They have a range of functions. They are an economic development authority in their locality and regions and they are a housing and planning authority. Local government is pretty much everything. A key matter for local authorities is their county and city development plans. That is the map for what happens spatially throughout the country. That is underpinned by infrastructure. Our job is to provide a portion of the national infrastructure that underpins the physical planning, which is done by local authorities. I know they are overseen by a planning regulator and so on and guidance comes through from other Departments but that is a fundamental part of what we do.

On projects over which TII has oversight, between now and 2040, the number of people in employment will go up from 2 million to 2.7 million - that is from 2016 to 2040.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I think we are at 2.7 million already.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

Perhaps. There may be 500,000 more homes and the trips that come from that for work and school. There may be 1 million more people. A lot of that increase will need infrastructure. Without infrastructure, you do not have the wherewithal to do business or to get-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I do not want to delay the meeting and I will let other members in. On strategy, who looks down the road? It is the local authority looking for national roads, is it TII saying we need national roads or is it the Minister? Who is the person saying we need a new road here or here, ahead of one there or there?

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

There is not a single originator for a project.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Who has the final say? Is it the Minister?

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

Essentially, yes, or the Government. Mr. Walsh mentioned approval gates earlier - the infrastructure guidelines that the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform publishes and requires compliance with. Cabinet decisions are required at approval gates 1 and 3.

That is for any project and not just for transport projects. Any project costing more than €200 million requires Cabinet approval. The Government of Ireland is deciding.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

However, TII is the one saying to the Government that it thinks the Thurles bypass is needed ahead of the Arklow bypass or whatever.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

You can think of us as a management agency. We are supplying. We are performing the end section of the work.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Ultimately it is a call by the Minister, the Department and the Government.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

Yes.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I will come back to this. I thank Mr. O'Neill for his contribution.

Mr. Peter Walsh

The Leas-Chathaoirleach spoke about other areas of deficiency in the network. The national road network is 5,300 km.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

At the start I did acknowledge that we have come a long way. I am not going to get queries about great roads.

Mr. Peter Walsh

It still leaves a lot behind. Approximately 1,300 km is under our management. This is the high-speed road network. Of the remaining 4,000 km approximately 1,000 km is improved. There are approximately 3,000 km unimproved. This is the legacy network. We do have designed pavement and we maintain scientific assessment and rejuvenation but the alignment, drainage and sightlines are all legacy issues for 3,000 km of the network.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

These are not TII's responsibility as such.

Mr. Peter Walsh

They are. The Leas-Chathaoirleach spoke about the many projects we could bring forward. There are very many projects we could bring forward for these 3,000 km. He mentioned the Ring of Kerry, which has a particular vulnerability to climatic conditions. We have had several circumstances where excessive rainfall has caused slippages. We need to maintain these roads. They might not warrant any intervention given the traffic volume on them but if they are severed, they need to be replaced. The Leas-Chathaoirleach mentioned that the N86 is deficient. We have a project from Tralee to Dingle that received planning approval but we are building it in pieces because we are trying to fit it into the programme. We also did this with the N59 in Mayo between Westport and Mallaranny. We have also been doing it in other places as well in partnership with the local authority. The term "lifeline roads" was used at one stage. The only way to connect to Clifden is by the N59. The importance of this road-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

There is no alternative.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Exactly. It goes beyond the volumes and time savings that might occur. The road needs to be maintained in a serviceable condition.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I appreciate all of this and we might touch on it again. I thank Mr. Walsh.

Deputy James O'Connor

It is good to see TII before the committee today and I offer big congratulations on the opening of the Dunkettle Interchange. It would be remiss of me not to mention the full opening of the Ballyvourney to Macroom scheme. Both projects were done in a very timely manner with very few problems, despite the engineering challenges involved. Senator Craughwell referenced overspend. This has never been an issue for TII to my knowledge. I recognise that and say that when a project gets going TII seems to have a track record of delivering success in it. All of us have an obligation to recognise this.

I want to ask about the Midleton to Youghal scheme. An allocation will be made this year for the appointment of a design consultant. I want an insight on where we are with it. Mr. Walsh knows it is important to me. I recognise that Deputy Stanton, my Fine Gael colleague in Cork East, is also here. It is important to both of us. We want to see is being built. I do not need to tell the witnesses that the N25 between Midleton and Youghal has a very high rate of fatalities. This stretch of road has a very high rate of accidents, particularly where it feeds into Castlemartyr. Sadly a number of people have been killed there in car accidents, particularly around the Two Mile Inn. It is sad to say and it is something that should have been addressed many years ago. We are looking forward to progress on this and I would like an insight on it. We know that money will be allocated this year for the design consultant. Will the witnesses give us some guidance on this process?

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

I thank the Deputy. Phase 1 of the N25 Midleton to Youghal project is due to be complete this quarter and this involves concept and feasibility. The Deputy mentioned consultants being appointed. They will be doing phase 2, which is the route option selection. This will involve the various routes for the project. It is very environmentally challenging out there and we are very aware of the need to focus on the Castlemartyr and Kileen sections to see whether they can be done in the same way as the Tipperary Town bypass and what we hope to do there with advanced sections. We have to look at the entire route from Midleton to Youghal.

Deputy James O'Connor

This is very positive and I thank Mr. Walsh. Deputy Stanton and I had a meeting with Cork County Council's chief executive and senior executives after Storm Babet. As the witnesses know, substantial damage was done to the national road infrastructure. Even more damage was done to regional and local roads to the tune of approximately €50 million. The national road cost is in the high millions of euro and I am not sure what the figure is. There has been an issue with culverts and flooding along the same stretch of road. There are incomplete culverts to drain water from the roads. I am not a geologist or an engineer with expertise in flooding or hydrology but the issue with the culverts has definitely had consequences for the village of Mogeely. The Gleann Fia estate there was substantially flooded. The travel of the water towards existing river channels through culverts is extremely important in and around the section of road between Killeagh and Castlemartyr. It had devastating consequences for the homes and houses there. There is an urgency in delivering further infrastructure at this section in particular. It is near enough to Knockane. I am not quite sure what the townland is but Knockane is the nearest townland on the Castlemartyr side. Will the witnesses check this issue? Cork County Council has raised it as a red flag issue and something that needs to be addressed.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

To expand on this a little, we are in a time of climate adaptation. Rainfall is intensifying in much of the country. What was an abnormal pattern some decades ago is probably normal now. We have looked at the entire national road network in terms of climate adaptation challenges and there are many. It will be very expensive and it will take a long time to work our way through these issues for the entire network. We will have to prioritise. With regard to the particular section the Deputy asked about, we will come back to him. It is part of the climate adaptation work we have embarked on.

Deputy James O'Connor

Unfortunately there was a fatal accident at the Burgess filling station since I raised the issue with the TII at a committee meeting. I live very near it. It is a very contentious issue for people in Youghal and Killeagh and for anyone who uses the N25 road that connects Cork and Waterford and on to Rosslare. Many people are familiar with it. The garage opened and then closed. There was a restaurant there originally with a filling station. It then shut for a long period and during that closure, in the middle of the previous decade, a right-hand island for westbound traffic to turn off was removed under a line repainting scheme. Subsequently, in 2017, the garage reopened. There are increased traffic volumes on the road. Some very positive work was done to address concerns about planning issues with the garage but from my understanding there was a little bit of a communications deficit on TII's side with the planning and architects on the garage owner's side. Cork County Council is very open to trying to find a resolution. I have engaged with it on this. Is it something that could please be looked at?

Mr. Walsh will be aware this is a huge safety issue and concern. Someone has been killed as a consequence of an accident there and it is something we live in fear of every day. I would nearly get down on my knees to ask TII to solve this for us because it is a major safety concern.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I felt the Deputy might raise this so I checked with people in advance of coming to the meeting. I know there has been-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Mr. Walsh is anticipating the Deputy's queries now.

Deputy James O'Connor

I am very consistent.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I do not want to prejudice any planning process and we are not the planning authority. I think we can say, however, that there appears to have been a significant change in the approach of the developer and engagement with Cork County Council as the planning authority. What is being reported to me is that there is a very positive general attitude towards addressing what is a safety issue on the national road. The last time I was in I said a relining contract was scheduled to be issued for that section of the N25.

Deputy James O'Connor

That has been completed.

Mr. Peter Walsh

It has not, actually. It was held off at that location pending the outcome of the current discussions with the developer.

Deputy James O'Connor

Right.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Part of the issue and the notion of replacing of what had been there previously as a right-turn facility concerns the fact that, as I understand it, the garage is on the north side of the road and east of Killeagh and the problem is vehicles leaving and going west. This movement is of particular concern. If a right-turn lane were to be introduced, that would increase the dwell time.

Deputy James O'Connor

Turning right is also lethal. Vehicles are on a section of the road that is very fast. I know this is a clichéd phrase. To make one point, and I do not, of course, want to prejudice anything or engage in any kind of comment about something sub judice, the enforcement notices come as a consequence of the lack of progress being made on the side of TII. All I am saying as a public representative of the people of Cork East is that we want to see safety improvements done there. People are delighted to see the place reopened. It is a fantastic facility. It is brilliant for the local farmers and people in the local area. We are delighted it is there. There is no malice in this query. I ask that TII would do this and we might discuss this matter outside the committee room as well.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes. I am happy to do so. As I understand it, things have moved in a very positive direction. There does appear to be the potential of a solution being developed now.

Deputy James O'Connor

I thank Mr. Walsh.

Deputy Duncan Smith

I thank the witnesses for coming in. I do not expect an answer to my first question now but it follows on from the last meeting and then the end of the exchange with Deputy O'Rourke at the start of this one. I refer to how TII would view positive changes in our planning system. I am not asking the witnesses to speak off the top of their heads or anything, but TII is such an important central cog in big projects we all care deeply about that it would be interesting to get its perspective on the planning system. It is a system that can be quite dense and hard to understand for the public and then for us as conduits to them. I am not sure how these views would evolve and, ultimately, be communicated from TII. It would be good, though, as a committee, to hear at some stage how TII feels about this change. We are on the cusp of oral hearings next week on the MetroLink project. This is the big one now but there are so many others and we will have more coming down the pipeline. I refer to just a comment in this regard.

To get a bit local for a moment, can the witnesses provide an update on the Fingal coastal way, which is a very exciting greenway project stretching from Sutton to Balbriggan? There are three phases to it. There is the Broadmeadow Way now that crosses the Malahide to Donabate Estuary. This is under construction. Public consultations are going on up the coast. It would be good if it were possible to comment on how that project is progressing or how TII views it.

Additionally, there are several lacunae in the context of this project. One is that there should be a loop-in for Swords, which is at the very opening of the estuary. This is the main county town of Fingal. Equally, however, it is not just a loop for a loop's sake. A lot of work is being done in Swords to develop the cultural quarter and that is being delivered. Theatres and arts spaces are being delivered and Swords Castle is open and thriving as a tourist destination. There are also exciting plans for future pedestrianisation of civic spaces. We will also then, please God, have the MetroLink. There is, therefore, a strong argument for a loop there to close out these developments. Additionally, there is a strong argument to include Kinsealy as well. These elements should be included in the planning context in this regard. I would appreciate it if the witnesses have any comments to make on the Fingal coast way.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I cannot say it is a project I know personally. On page 54 of the material that we provided to the committee, however, there is a project status update on this matter. It is at the options assessment stage. The draft options selection report has recently been peer reviewed. The emerging preferred route went to public consultation and that ended on 22 December 2023.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

We will take that bit as read and we will just focus on the Swords loop for the Deputy. We will take this question away and talk to the NTA about it. There is this split in greenways responsibility. TII is responsible for rural greenways, as I will call them, while the NTA has responsibility for urban greenways. I suspect the Swords bit might sit within the remit of the NTA.

Deputy Duncan Smith

Okay. We are on the other side of things.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

If it does not, there might be scope for us to develop something there.

Deputy Duncan Smith

I am not mentioning this to stall progress on the project. I just think it is important.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

Yes. I am from that area as well, so I have had an interest. I hope the Chair does not mind me being parochial.

Deputy Duncan Smith

TII has the rural greenways and the NTA has the urban ones. We then reach a region such as Fingal, which is urban, coastal and rural.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

Yes.

Deputy Duncan Smith

We can get a bit confused. One area, Donabate, is experiencing major growth in housing now. Luckily, it is on a train line and that line is doing a lot of heavy lifting in terms of commuting now. There has been a relief road on Donabate Peninsula, but access to the peninsula itself is still via the Hearse Road and Turvey Avenue. Those are probably not national roads but given their role in linking Donabate with the M1, would TII have any views on upgrading both those roads? I say this particularly in respect of the provision of cycle paths and footpaths and providing better access in this way.

On the M1 itself, and motorways in general, even driving last night - and this happens a lot if it is dark and raining - when the lights are turned off on the motorways, it can feel a bit hazardous. It is more so when it is raining. There are electricity saving measures and climate considerations but where is the balance in this regard in terms of safety?

Turning to safety and road deaths in general, what type of communication, if any, does TII have with the RSA, particularly when it comes to improving road safety and having an interdepartmental approach to highlighting places that are accident black spots where there have been fatalities or serious injuries? What role does TII play in that with the RSA? I ask the witnesses to illuminate this.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I defer to Mr. O'Neill on the road network.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

I am very familiar with Hearse Road, Turvey Avenue, etc. Those are not national roads. They are the responsibility of Fingal County Council as local and regional roads. In terms of the M1, TII did provide cycling infrastructure in around the Lissenhall Junction and an underpass, etc. This is more about future-proofing for whenever dedicated cycle links start are developed. The Hearse Road is quite narrow. It is a legacy alignment. Fingal County Council has quite a challenge there.

Deputy Duncan Smith

Yes, it does. It is not easy.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

On lighting, I will hand back to Mr. Walsh because this is an issue associated with network management.

Mr. Peter Walsh

It is. We did an amount of research, and we continue to engage in this regard, concerning the illumination of roads and junctions. I cannot remember exactly which year it was - it was around 2009 and 2010 - but the importance of having illumination at the top of the ramps was something that had been accepted.

There is a diminution of safety on the main line if you are going from bright to dark and dark to bright. Drivers have to make an adjustment at that point. I appreciate that it feels more difficult to drive at night on a multi-lane or high-speed road but in terms of accident records and assessments of the hazards created, there is no evidence to suggest it brings about any disimprovement in safety. There is a body of opinion that says introducing that interface is not a good idea, although I am not sure how much evidence there is for that.

Because of energy saving and the obligations to address the level of energy being used on the network, this was looked into and a new standard of lighting was introduced. We monitor our accident statistics closely and we have had no reason to review, revise or change that in any way. I appreciate that it is somewhat controversial, but it has shown up where we are effectively retrofitting the standard by removing lights from sections of the network. People are used to having them there and they see it as a diminution of safety aspects, but we have no evidence to support that and there are significant energy savings in removing them. I hope that gives the Deputy some reassurance. It is something we are keeping under constant review. We are not taking it for granted.

In terms of accidents-----

Deputy Duncan Smith

In respect of how TII operates with the RSA, are there official lines of communication?

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes, there are. The RSA develops the road safety strategy for the Government and monitors its delivery. I sit on a couple of committees with the RSA, with Sam Waide and his staff, and there are interactions between us regarding statistics and information relating to accidents. We get the statistics directly from the Garda, because we have a data-sharing agreement with the Garda, but we share them with the RSA. In respect of driver behaviour, driver attitude, patterns of seatbelt-wearing and so on, the RSA carries out quite a bit of research and we engage with it regularly on that.

We have very close engagement. It has a remit for public information and education and we rely on that. It is a trusted voice for communicating with users of the road network. When we were introducing variable speed limits on the M50 and this committee visited the motorway control centre to have a look, it was the RSA that we went to as the people to educate the public on that. Similarly, we have engaged with it on a number of reviews of the road safety strategy, where it is going and how it is going.

Nobody is at all complacent about how accident statistics have trended over the past while. In 2023, on national roads, the numbers fell for both fatalities and serious accidents but it was really marginal, so we are not seeing the improvement we saw in previous years. We are strongly of the view that it is a safe system approach, among seven different elements, including road infrastructure, vehicles and use of the road, and we work with the RSA to try to identify where that can be implemented. Nevertheless, we carry out our own analysis of the national road network, which I referred to earlier. One aspect is where we take all the accident statistics, map and analyse them and communicate all the figures for national roads with the local authorities. Where accident clusters are identified, we would ask that an assessment of that location be undertaken to see whether an appropriate engineering intervention could be adopted to address it, and then develop projects from that. That is one means of developing projects. The other is through road safety inspections, where we send out people to drive up the road, inspect it, pick up what they see as hazards and try to work those into programmes.

As for how closely we work together, the RSA does not fund projects as we do. Its remit is slightly different. We were very closely engaged for the development of the road safety strategy and we have a number of actions within it. We report through the RSA to keep track of their delivery and I am glad to say we are ahead on the commitments we made in that regard. I do not know whether I can say any more-----

Deputy Duncan Smith

That was really comprehensive regarding the relationship and so on. I thank Mr. Walsh.

Mr. Peter Walsh

There are initiatives. The Garda is also closely involved in this. Assistant Commissioner Hilman, Sam Waide and I meet regularly in regard to the introduction of technology for the enforcement of offences, for instance. We would not have any role in enforcement relating to traffic offences but we do provide the infrastructure, so-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Average speed cameras.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes, but equally, there are spot speed cameras and the whole use of technology. We have two locations, as the Deputy will know, in the tunnel and on the M7. The processing of the information is quite labour intensive and people and technology are needed to do it. Once evidence has been gathered, that goes to the Garda for prosecution and so on. How that might be developed nationally is something on which we are working closely with the Road Safety Authority and the Garda.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I welcome Mr. Walsh and Mr. O'Neill and thank them for engaging with us. Before Christmas, the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, visited County Clare and met Bridget Fogarty. She hails from the village of Crusheen in north-east Clare. In June 2018, she got a devastating phone call to say her husband, Michael, had been killed at exit 13 on the M18. Our guests cannot possibly know every exit but this is one they might be familiar with because wherever you go in the country, a slip road or exit way from a motorway is usually a long, sweeping section of road where drivers can simply enter or exit the motorway system using their mirrors and their visuals. In this case, it is almost a 90° exit and it is pretty similar for joining. I think the joining and exit lanes are half the length they should be. They were all built to specification, given this is one of the roads in Ireland that was not originally built as a motorway. It was a dual carriageway and national road - an N road at the time - and it was upgraded to motorway status, but it was built to an older specification. It is lethal. It has taken lives and there have been many accidents. Indeed, on the morning the Minister of State visited the site, he sat into a car with Bridget Fogarty and they drove to the junction several times. I think he was startled by how dangerous the alignment is.

This has arisen time and again at council meetings in Clare and it is a TII function to look at it. I have sent in reams of paperwork relating to the coroner's court from Bridget Fogarty's family. It is very much legal paperwork but it highlights that this junction is deficient and the accidents cannot all be blamed on driver behaviour. Most of the blame lies in how the junction is configured. Simply, for those who are not familiar with it, drivers are not able to exit or join at any great speed and it is very dangerous.

Will TII re-examine this? There needs to be some plan to remediate this junction. Any time I drive on the motorway system past Athlone, there are a couple of kilometres where it ceases to be a motorway.

The speed limit reduces to 100 km/h and then increases again. Something like this could be an interim solution until we devise a new junction layout. Will the witnesses comment on that?

Mr. Peter Walsh

I am not familiar with the junction so I had better not comment on it. I will undertake to have it reviewed. The Deputy has raised it previously and, when it was last raised, the enhancement of delineation was undertaken. From what the Deputy is saying, it may still be problematic. I am familiar with the road between Gort and Crusheen. As a regional manager, I was involved in the Gort-Crusheen motorway. The seriously improved safety achieved by building the motorway and taking traffic off the old N18 at that location is something we were pleased about. Some of those legacy junctions may well warrant some form of intervention. I should not comment further on it now but we will look into it and come back.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I accept that. This is one of the trickier Oireachtas meetings because members are all firing local cases at the witnesses. We respect that Mr. Walsh cannot know all the particulars. A file has gone into TII's offices and I ask that it be given the utmost attention.

More generally, the committee will shortly begin work around speed limit reductions, as flagged by the Government last autumn. It is not ideal but there are only a few of these really awful motorway junctions in the country and, on an interim basis until we have something designed to replace them, TII needs to be open to speed limit reductions. It is contrary to what a motorway is but it has happened in Athlone and if that example has worked and made a section of roadway safer, then at junction 13 and a few others I could probably count on one hand where there have been multiple or fatal accidents, something needs to be done speed limit-wise before we get to the long-term solution.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The M50 also has a lower limit on it.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

Yes.

Mr. Peter Walsh

That section of the Athlone bypass was never motorway. That is one of the reasons the speed limit was maintained at 100 km/h. There are other reasons for imposing a speed limit.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

A huge bugbear in County Clare is that TII, in conjunction with the office of the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, has written to Clare County Council, as I understand it, saying national roads in the country can no longer be considered for planning permission purposes. Another Deputy raised this matter earlier. Generally, that makes sense. If there is a fast road or main thoroughfare linking major towns and cities, in theory there should not be building on it; however, that is not the way settlement patterns have happened in Ireland. West of Ennis, there are only a small handful of significant villages and Kilrush is the only town of real significance in west Clare. All along the road people have purchased land with small access roads. Overnight they found out they cannot build there any more. To compound that, the national planning framework, which is not in TII's remit, specifies that some of these villages can only grow by a handful of houses in the next five years. The cumulative effect of these two letters landing on the desk of Clare County Council is basically that in west Clare nothing can be built outside of the towns. It is devastating. If someone said to me I could not build on the N18 or M18, that would be fine, but this is not that. It is a network of national roads. Interestingly, nearly every road in west Clare has national road classification. It sterilises half our county in terms of future development.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I am not familiar with the letter the Deputy referred to. We simply request that planning and local authorities observe the national guideline in terms of preserving capacity on national roads. In areas where the determination is that traffic is low, the local need is great, or both, our general approach is not to appeal a planning approval the local authority regards as warranted. It may be rare enough that those circumstances exist but the general position we have always taken is to look to the local authority to observe the national guidelines in this regard. They are not our guidelines; they are originally Department of environment guidelines.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I think most of us were councillors before we became Oireachtas Members. I remember years ago a full council meeting, lasting for two or three hours, to debate guidelines, the conclusion of which was that guidelines, though important, are only guidelines. The guidelines carry substance and clout but is it the case that where a planner with all his or her expertise and professional knowledge deems some sections of national roadway unsuitable for housing and that development should not happen on them, but that there are sections that could be suitable and which the planning authority deems acceptable, the TII does not generally go to An Bord Pleanála over those?

Mr. Peter Walsh

The number of cases we appeal to An Bord Pleanála is very low. We will do so if we are of the opinion the development would impact the safety or capacity of the national road network. I do not want to give the impression we are completely hands-off. We are not. I will not try to remember the number of cases we have brought in recent years but it is very low.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

An inner relief road scheme has been planned for many years for the N67-N85 at Blake's Corner in the town of Ennistymon, north Clare. It has gone to judicial review, I believe. Do the TII chiefs have any insight into the status of that and when the people of north Clare might expect to see work taking place?

Mr. Peter Walsh

All I can say is we are very frustrated the scheme has gone to judicial review. Its progression is something we fully support and we are happy it went through An Bord Pleanála. It will be progressed. We see it as an important project.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I have a what-if question. If it got beyond judicial review with a favourable outcome, is it still years off or will it be a priority for TII?

Mr. Peter Walsh

We would have to look at what other constraints might exist. It is a minor project. We generally keep a programme of minor projects moving. I do not know what might inhibit it.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I thank Mr. Walsh for his engagement.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I made that same point earlier. Most councillors in Ireland will be familiar with Ennistymon. It is a corner we all know.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

There are 50 shades of car paint on the corner, which will tell you how often it gets clipped.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I know it is St. Valentine's Day but I am not sure we are ready for 50 shades of car paint.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I think I spotted some on your bumper there.

Deputy Martin Kenny

I thank the witnesses for their presentation and the detail on all the major projects that are progressing. I have questions on some of those. The appendix to the opening statement sets out a number of projects that are moving ahead with some pace and projects approaching planning approval. It mentions in particular the Slane bypass and the Donegal TEN-T improvements. At what point is that work expected to commence? Approaching planning approval is one thing, but are we getting close?

Mr. Peter Walsh

In June of last year, the Donegal TEN-T project was submitted to the Department of Transport for approval gate 1, so we are awaiting approval gate 1. When that comes through, it will go into planning.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Okay, so the Department of Transport is the hold-up.

Mr. Peter Walsh

That is where the project is at the moment.

Deputy Martin Kenny

We will not call it a hold-up. We will say it is under consideration, but it is a lengthy consideration.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I should allow my colleague, Mr. O'Neill, to clarify, just in case I am misleading the Deputy.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

We are also finishing phase 3 deliverables. When I say "we", I mean the Donegal national roads office and advisers it has procured and is managing. Phase 3 is design and environmental evaluation, which is a very substantive part of the planning and design stage.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Effectively, work is ongoing on the next phase of delivery, but we need approval gate 1 in order to submit for planning approval.

Deputy Martin Kenny

That is one of the issues that I have raised numerous times. The phasing of projects of course has to happen. However, we seem to have this situation where it is difficult to move ahead while waiting for approval for phase 2, which has to be completed before one can move ahead to get funding for the next phase, and so on. I believe that is one of the things that is causing delays and frustrations, certainly to local authorities and local representatives that want to see the work done. I would like to hear the witnesses' view on that. Could there be a better system that would make things run more smoothly?

Mr. Peter Walsh

We would like to be able to progress projects unimpeded. That is my view on it. Part of the frustration that I have is that I believe we have extremely good and transparent procedures for the development of projects through seven phases. We engage in public consultation on several occasions during that process. I do not think anything is hidden. Our experience of the assessments at different decision or approval gates has been that not one project has been varied, amended or altered but it takes at least six months to get through. It is hard to see where the value is in it. I appreciate that we should not be off doing things without scrutiny.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Of course.

Mr. Peter Walsh

We would not wish to.

Deputy Martin Kenny

If a sound proposal is put forward and is going to roll forward, waiting for six to eight months for it to get the nod when there is no change or serious questions to be asked about it seems a little bit frustrating.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I should not be trying to single out our organisation as being different from everyone else. It is a healthy opportunity and I would like to suggest that maybe some can be trusted to bring forward business cases that make sense. I know it was mentioned earlier that we have good outcomes. We have just completed the Dunkettle interchange, the Ballyvourney-Macroom project, the Moycullen bypass, the Westport to Turlough road, and the Collooney to Castlebaldwin road. Our total scheme budget for all of those projects together was €955.6 million. We have completed all of those projects. Granted, I am taking out the money that was an ex gratia payment for the impact of Covid but all were completed for €948.3 million. We are at 99.8% of the original total scheme budget across all of those. If one adds in the other money, which was an ex gratia payment, it comes in at 1.4% above. There has been a war in Ukraine, Brexit and all sorts of impacts.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is fair to say that other capital projects have not adhered to the same level of stringency that TII has.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I think the track record should count for something.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am referring to other Departments. TII is doing very well at sticking to its budget.

Mr. Peter Walsh

We know what we are doing. We have been doing it for a long time.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

Expertise counts.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Expertise counts.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

The process is one thing but experts are needed to actually manage portfolios. Regarding timelines for deliveries, some of the projects that Mr. Walsh mentioned had very lengthy planning periods. A project that we got approval gate 2 for recently is the N28 from Cork to Ringaskiddy. Cork County Council submitted that scheme to An Bord Pleanála on 15 May 2017. Members heard me correctly. That is 2017. It went through a judicial review with various appeal stages, including the Supreme Court and so on. It emerged from that on 1 March 2021. That is almost four years.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am quite surprised that we have got to almost two hours into this meeting and have not mentioned the Galway ring road once yet.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

I did mention it a little earlier.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It was not brought up by the members as much.

Mr. Peter Walsh

We care about these projects.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I do not doubt it. I know many people do.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

We have a little table on the back of our briefing document which has the TII project management phases. It is technical jargon. Apologies for that. Beside that are the infrastructure guidelines, which used to be known as the public spending code.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Just on the back page, that is the hierarchy, with construction and close-out first, then projects to-----

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

Yes.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is not really bypass accessibility but will be ongoing with the other stuff.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

Project delivery phase.

Mr. Peter Walsh

The project delivery phase, yes.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

Section 13. It is an aptly numbered section. Phases 0 to 4 are the planning and design phase for our major projects. That is taking us seven to nine years now.

Deputy Martin Kenny

That seems very long.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

It is very long. Mr. Walsh and I were involved in the delivery of the major interurban roads back in the 2000s. Some 751 km were delivered in about a decade and a half.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

My local TD was Minister for Transport at the time. Séamus Brennan was the Minister.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I was at several openings with the former Minister, Mr. Brennan, at the time. It took seven to eight years to go from phase 0 to phase 7 back then.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

How long has Galway taken at this stage?

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

I think it was 17 years previously.

Mr. Peter Walsh

We started the design in 1999.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The eastern bypass was a design from the 1970s and will never be built.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

It is gone now. We had that conversation at a previous meeting.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I know that.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

Not to be negative about it, there are positive developments. There is the new division of the High Court for planning and environmental issues. That is positive. That should hopefully bring a faster pace. We do not object to the judicial scrutiny. It is the time it takes to get to a judgment. If the judgment is against us, we take that but we are prevailing much of the time too and that time is gone.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Is some of that due to additional environmental evaluations going on now that may not have happened in the past? Is that part of the delay?

Mr. Peter Walsh

It is part of it but, over the years, with environmental investigations, one never knows what is enough. It seems the higher we raise the bar, the higher it has to go the next time. It is very easy to express an opinion that says that we have not established beyond reasonable scientific doubt that this project will not have an adverse effect on a qualifying interest within a special area of conservation. When I say that, I am quoting it, because we see it often enough. That can be problematic. We tend to do as much as we possibly can on environmental assessment for projects. Galway was brought up. An Bord Pleanála has now asked that the environmental assessment be resubmitted. Multi-season surveys have to be redone. It will be September before they are complete and that information is provided. The impact of what appears to be doing things comprehensively is significant. That project ended up going back to be remitted to An Bord Pleanála for what could be seen as an administrative error. It made reference to the wrong climate action plan four weeks------

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

It was five days.

Mr. Peter Walsh

It was five days on the wrong side of it being enforced. It is very hard.

Deputy Martin Kenny

There is quite a list of projects. TII's plan has various phases. Some attention needs to be brought to the first four phases. It seems to me that the last three phases can happen relatively quickly. If we could get the same sense of urgency around the first four phases, we would actually be delivering projects in a much more timely manner and resolving many of these issues. I see the list of bypasses here. We really need to see some progress. I am sorry for indulging this, Chair.

What I get from Mr. Walsh's answer is that much of this seems to relate to those four phases and, in particular, the Department of Transport perhaps giving this more scrutiny than is needed in order to ensure we get value for money. That time costs a significant amount of public money.

Mr. Peter Walsh

In fairness to the Department of Transport, it is following the public spending code or the infrastructure guidelines. It is obliged to do so. I appreciate it is across all investment the Government might make. I suggest that some agencies may have a rigour that could be given a certain level of credit.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Could there be a re-examination of those guidelines?

Mr. Peter Walsh

I would certainly-----

Deputy Martin Kenny

It would be helpful.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Maybe I should not comment further.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We note Mr. Walsh's "No comment".

Mr. Peter Walsh

I am precluded from commenting on policy.

Deputy Martin Kenny

I understand.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is fair to say that TII has the expertise, skill set and people. There is a level of frustration among the members of this committee and, indeed, some of the non-members who are joining us. I am sure TII would love to be doing things more quickly. I was on a local authority when Carrickmines Castle was a problem in the context of the M50. Two of the four MEPs in Dublin at the time were objecting to the M50 being built. In the end, only a perimeter wall of the potential site of a castle was ever found. I do not think anyone ever found the castle, but they might have found the perimeter wall of a castle. The motorway is now being used. I do not know how long it took but there was a very long delay in the middle of that time. This is the real-life impact. At one stage, the road went to Templeogue and then it went to Ballinteer. When it went to Sandyford there were people streaming down into Dundrum and back up again because the road was not finished. When it opened, it was life-changing and transformational for many people. It took an hour to get from Goatstown to Rathfarnham in the 1990s. That journey now takes six or seven minutes. Even at the bad times on the M50, it takes 15 minutes. People may not remember how bad it was before the M50 opened. In addition, bypasses improve road safety and quality of life for drivers, but also for the towns. Some people are against all roads, but they should realise that some roads are good. Not every road is needed, but many roads improve everybody's existence, as well as road safety, which is a significant concern for everybody, particularly members of this committee.

Mr. Peter Walsh

The Leas-Chathaoirleach's point on expertise is well made. Expertise is needed.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Absolutely. At the time, Seamus Brennan made the point that there were people on the board of the NRA who had significant construction expertise and were very helpful in understanding different types of contracts and so on. Our guests from TII have significant expertise. You need people who know what they are doing and then we should get on with it where the road is merited.

I will bring in some of the non-members who are joining us.

Deputy David Stanton

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their presentation. I met them last Monday in Cork. I congratulate them on the fantastic job done on the Dunkettle roundabout. It was delivered on time and under budget and without incidents of note, which is important. It has made a massive difference to the area. It is not just about the time saved. More than anything else, it has cut down on emissions from cars that were previously sitting there for 15 or 20 minutes, spewing out diesel. That has all stopped. We should bear that in mind, to add to the Leas-Chathaoirleach's remarks.

Mr. Walsh addressed the issue of the Castlemartyr-Killeagh bypass with my good friend and colleague, Deputy O'Connor. I note that €800,000 was made available last year for a phase 1 concept for the bypass. How much funding is available now for the design phase for the next part, to which reference was made?

Mr. Peter Walsh

I cannot tell the Deputy what the allocations are for this year because the local authorities have not yet been notified. They need to be notified in the first instance.

Deputy David Stanton

Funding will be made available, however, for the design of the road. That is the next phase. How long will it take to complete the design work?

Mr. Peter Walsh

This touches on what we were discussing a moment ago. It is very difficult to say. The period of design before we can get to construction has been lengthening significantly.

Deputy David Stanton

Leaving the planning part out of it, how long does it take to design a road from Midleton to Youghal? How long does it take to get to the planning stage?

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

It depends. It is an environmentally complex area, if I can put it that way. The technical advisers are being procured. They will need to establish their programme for going through the work. It involves route options. The Deputy can understand the constraints, including environmental challenges, physical constraints, identifying which route will bring the most economic benefit and so on. Our experience is that could take from one to two years. I cannot be more certain than that at this stage.

Deputy David Stanton

It could take up to two years before TII has the design ready.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

Yes. As I stated in response to a previous question relating to the planning and design stage, before a construction contract is awarded and there are boots on the ground with machines, that could be a seven- to nine-year period.

Deputy David Stanton

Technically, it could be seven to nine years before we see anything happening between Midleton and Youghal.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

That is correct. In the meantime, we will need to do asset management and so on. Any minor safety improvements that are affordable and the right solution will be carried out.

Deputy David Stanton

I thank Mr. O'Neill. My next question relates to damage to national roads caused by Storm Bebet, certainly in my part of the country. Is it within the remit of TII to provide funding to the council or otherwise make funding available to repair the national roads that were damaged by Storm Bebet?

Mr. Peter Walsh

Cork County Council has made a separate application to the Department of Transport for funding relating to storm damage. In terms of damage on national roads, it is limited. The section of most concern is the N25 from Carrigtwohill to Midleton, where there was significant flooding. It is a karst area. The flood water dissipated, but not very quickly. As part of our assessment of needs in climate adaptation, we may have to do something significant with drainage there. We have no sense of the scope or cost of that at the moment but it is an area that was highlighted as vulnerable to lengthy and heavy rain events.

Deputy David Stanton

Mr. Walsh referred to the N25 road between Midleton and Carrigtwohill. As he is aware, that was the subject of a proposal for upgrade some years ago. No upgrades have been carried out in the past two years. Funding was not available. How much had been spent on that design concept up to that point?

Mr. Peter Walsh

I can find out.

Deputy David Stanton

As regards the funding that was spent, is there a time limit? I understand work was done. A number of public consultations were held and so on. Is there a point at which all that work becomes obsolete and has to start again? In other words, if this project is allowed to drift for another three, four or five years, will the whole thing have to be started again if the go-ahead is given at that stage to proceed with the project?

Mr. Peter Walsh

It is difficult to say. Ground investigation information generally does not deteriorate. Those are facts. It is similar for topographical surveys, historical assessments and so on but-----

Deputy David Stanton

I apologise for interrupting but my time is tight. Would public consultations, for instance, have to be restarted after a limited period of time?

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes.

Deputy David Stanton

A significant amount of expenditure that has already been made on this road could be lost if time drifts.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes.

Deputy David Stanton

I spoke to Mr. Walsh last week about the volume of housing that, thankfully, is now planned for east Cork. There are plans for thousands of houses. In fact, it is heading for tens of thousands of houses in some areas. It is massive. A new village is being constructed just east of Midleton. The intersection of the road is not up to standard. I have seen that already. The N25 from Carrigtwohill to Midleton is joined by slip roads that are not slip roads at all. There are right-angle junctions and medians go across from one section to another. Does Mr. Walsh agree it is an extraordinarily dangerous road?

I have written to TII about this in recent weeks and previously on a number of occasions. A lot of us are very concerned about the danger on that road because of the volume and speed of traffic and the terribly dangerous intersections. Are there any plans to make it safer?

Mr. Peter Walsh

I do not know offhand-----

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

Yes.

Deputy David Stanton

When will that start?

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

The Deputy is referring to Carrigtwohill to Midleton. Technical advisers have been appointed to develop a series of minor safety improvements.

Deputy David Stanton

What exactly does that mean? It is not clear.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

We have information regarding where the legacy road has some issues, such as bad bends, if I can use that term. Technical advisers have been appointed. They will look at these areas and identify potential solutions and we will look to progress them. Some of them may require planning, which will bring us into that space, while others-----

Deputy David Stanton

Is TII funding that?

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

Yes.

Deputy David Stanton

How much is it putting towards it?

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

I do not know. I do not have that information to hand.

Deputy David Stanton

Can Mr. O'Neill let me know at some stage, please? He might give the information to the committee.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

We issued the allocations to local authorities and that will come out later in the month. It would be unfair to the local authorities to do otherwise. In any event, I do not have the information to hand, but even if I did, they would have to get it first.

Deputy David Stanton

In my brief remaining time, I wish to raise two other projects. This has been a most interesting discussion. Part of the greenway from Midleton to Youghal will open on 7 March, and well done to everyone concerned, while the rest of it will open at the end of the year. It is a major project that will make a massive difference. Nevertheless, given we have been told the bypass from Castlemartyr to Killeagh might not occur for six or seven years, I will be well gone out of the House by then. There has been a proposal to put in place a rapid bus transit alongside the greenway. It was built initially as a double track and it is now a single track. I have seen the drone footage. The track is quite wide and would accommodate for most of the way a rapid bus transit lane, which is just slightly wider than a bus, and that could travel up and down, although there are some pinch points and bridges that would need work. Would TII have a role in examining that and doing something with it, given the track is there with the greenway?

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

That sounds like an NTA responsibility. This the first I have heard of it.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Generally, the provision of a public transport service would fall to the NTA. Nevertheless, in the case of Dunkettle, there were plans for high-quality bus provision that we were able to incorporate into that project because of the timing. If we can facilitate something, we will, of course, support it.

Deputy David Stanton

I thank Mr. Walsh. I have been focused on the final issue for a long time, although it will not be in my area anymore because of the constituency boundary reviews. It relates to the famous Mallow relief road, which will make a massive difference to Mallow and open up the whole town. It will mean trucks and so on that have no business being in the street will not be spewing out diesel and petrol fumes all day in the town. I hope that will be progressed.

Mr. Peter Walsh

It is to be funded this year and an allocation will be provided but, as we said, we will need to let the local authorities know.

Deputy David Stanton

I thank the witnesses for their work and their time.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I welcome Mr. Walsh and Mr. O'Neill. The last time we met was at the opening of the long-awaited Macroom bypass, which we welcome very much. The Killarney bypass has been promised for many years. We thought we were getting close last year but we were then told no funding was being made available to TII. The road is a continuation of the Macroom bypass and is also called the Kerry-Cork economic corridor. Where we are talking about is from Lissyviggeen to Farranfore, and from Farranfore to Castlelough on the Muckross Road, which joins up with the national secondary road, the Moll’s Gap road. It is very important. Where is this proposal or scheme on TII's list of priorities? Is it on any list or has it been dropped?

Mr. Peter Walsh

The N22 from Farranfore to Killarney is in the national development plan. It is not to be funded this year. We have our allocations. They come with a conditional list of prioritisation and it is not on that list.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I did not hear Mr. Walsh refer to the bit from Lissyviggeen to Castlelough. Is that on any list?

Mr. Peter Walsh

I do not know the project well enough to know which-----

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

When we were shown this massive proposal in 2004 in the Great Southern hotel in Killarney, it was all the one project at that time, but we have heard through the grapevine that it might no longer be. Mr. Walsh does not seem to have it mentioned in any of his documents, so I am worried. This is a very important link. People who come from the west, such as from Sneem, Kenmare and so on, have to go through Kenmare Place in Killarney. If they want to go to Cork, Galway or anywhere else, they have to come through the town.

Mr. Peter Walsh

We have a map of the route to hand, but I do not personally know-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Mr. Walsh might share it with the Deputy after the meeting.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes, and he can let us know if he is still concerned that the scope of the project is missing the part he thinks it is.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

If it is not on this year's programme, does Mr. Walsh have any idea as to whether it will come up next year?

Senator Eugene Murphy

The Deputy will have to wait and look at the map.

Mr. Peter Walsh

The short answer is "No".

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I am not in any way blaming TII. The relevant Minister has been quoted as saying it was not a priority, so I do not know the status of it but we will say no more about that. We have been waiting for a long time. When the proposal was put to us on a massive display in the Great Southern hotel in 2004, a lot of work had gone into it by then, so we thought the timeframe would have been two or three years at that time. To set out one aspect of it, at present the Killarney bypass is called the Killarney bypass. There are more than 23,000 movements on it most days and six dangerous junctions intersect with it where people have been killed or seriously maimed. We want this route to help people travel safely. It is also choking the town of Killarney economically. I am just making the case to the witnesses and would appreciate if they could bring it forward or hurry it on at all.

The N22 in the Glenflesk valley was for many years prone to flooding, culminating with many deputations coming into the town hall in Killarney, notices of motion and so on. We were told cleaning the river would make very little difference, or at least that it would make a difference of only 10 mm in a once-in-a-hundred-year flood. The road was being flooded any time there was heavy rain until 2018 and after a lot of requests and battles, we got a small sum from the then Minister of State, Kevin “Boxer” Moran, and the river was cleaned. There have been heavy rains since then but at no time in any of the floods of the past six years has the road been flooded. At that time, the TII and Kerry County Council engineers were saying we would have to raise the road.

Rightfully, the residents along the road were afraid that they would be flooded worse. The road can be raised but we cannot lift up the houses in the same way. It would be grand if we could. I think it was done in Chicago about 120 years ago when it was being flooded.

When clearing the river, all that we did was cut the bushes that were blocking it. We did not take any of the build-up of the gravel or silt. If that was done, it would have been a gallant job altogether for many years. One would not have had to look at it at all. Could some kind of a maintenance programme be initiated to ensure that the good work that has been done is kept alive? Those bushes will grow again. The truth is that when you cut a bush, one stem will grow many more branches. We are getting worried that we will be back at square one again and that, rather than clearing the river, the proposal will be to raise the road again. I want to highlight that and ask the witnesses if there is any way to progress this and get a scheme going to maintain the banks of the river and ensure it does not flood again.

Mr. Peter Walsh

We are looking at climate adaptation and resilience in a way that we have not looked at it before across the network. Where there are areas that have been identified as ones where flooding occurs, we are looking at whatever measure can be taken to ensure they do not flood. We may have difficulties with the extent of powers and what might be possible with downstream clearing of watercourses and so on, because we have no powers relating to watercourses. I take the Deputy's point that raising the road is very much treating the symptom rather than trying to address the illness.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

The landowners are all for it and appreciate the great work that was done but they were prevented from doing the work. If they touched anything, they lost their farm payments.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I know from working on projects before that watercourses are connected in ways that are far more complex than one might initially think. The removal of a blockage in one area can lead to flooding somewhere else. These things are never simple but we will have to start looking at drainage and maintaining a road above water level in whatever way is most prudent. It is not a programme we have started other than to identify where it is vulnerable. We are currently doing risk assessments because one cannot do the work everywhere all the time. We have to identify the areas that are most vulnerable.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

It is a national primary road.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes. We are certainly open to solutions other than raising the road.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

We have the same issues with planning coming out on the national secondary roads and to a lesser extent on the national primary roads. Local councillors came up with an idea that if it is a council road, maintained by the council, that is no problem and it will come to that council first. However, a public road would not as it has not been taken in charge by the council, if Mr. Walsh understands what I am saying. It is not a private road. It is a public road but it is not in the charge of the local authority. People on that road are deprived of the possibility of getting planning. The local councillors came up with an idea, including councillors Johnny Healy-Rae and Maura Healy-Rae, and many others. The idea was for the first 100 yd of their roads to be taken in charge. I believe the local authority was okay with it but I think the request has gone to TII for approval and we have heard nothing since. I ask Mr. Walsh to look that up when he gets a chance.

We all welcome the Macroom bypass. I have a query. It is a new job and new road but there have been no slip roads. You come straight out onto the road. There have been accidents already on the new bypass where people come straight out of the Millstreet Road. A heavy articulated truck with 40 tonnes has to climb a hill, so the cars come very fast behind it. Why were there not slip roads? Why was there not a slow lane? When a lorry has a burst tyre, it cannot be moved and the wheel has to be changed. The lane has to be closed to change a wheel. Like we have in many other bypasses, why was there not a slow lane where people can pull in if something happens?

Mr. Peter Walsh

Regarding the cross-section, we had many sections of the network where the standard would indicate that you should have a standard single carriageway without a divide. The development of a cross-section for four lanes without having hard shoulders but with pull-in areas was a small increase in the amount of blacktop road surface but allowed for the division of oncoming traffic from each other and to provide for safe passing. It is a hugely better cross-section from a safety point of view for the mainline traffic. We will keep under review the performance of the junctions and the manner in which a heavy goods vehicle might come on at a gradient, as well as the absence of the auxiliary lane that there would be on other roads.

The reason for the design is that this is a design standard that has been developed internationally. It works. One gets the benefit of the overtaking and the separation of traffic from oncoming traffic. Those safety benefits are huge. If it is a case of educating users of the road, I do not know what way we might have to go about that, but this is a significant improvement on the wide single carriageway with regard to safety performance. We may need to help people modify the use of it, such as moving into the right-hand lane if they see a slow-moving vehicle coming on. They do not have the benefit of auxiliary lanes to get their speed up but it has made it possible to build those roads.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I thank Mr. Walsh. We all agree it is a massive improvement but for a small bit extra-----

Mr. Peter Walsh

I know. That is the problem with these things.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

-----it would have been the perfect job. I thank the witnesses and the Chair.

Senator Eugene Murphy

I probably will not take my ten minutes because Deputy O'Sullivan is here and I am sure Mr. Walsh and Mr. O'Neill want to get a break at this stage.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It depends on what the Senator is going to ask, I suppose.

Senator Eugene Murphy

First, because Deputy Stanton missed it, I will say that the Dunkettle interchange is just fabulous. I know the witnesses were interviewed and I could see their pride about that project. Everybody I have spoken to has said it is absolutely wonderful. Staying on the good news sheet, living along the N5, the difficulties that we faced from the Ukrainian war drove the costs crazy and unfortunately Roadbridge could not move ahead with the project. I know from the interactions I have had with the Minister for Finance, Deputy McGrath, the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, and the Minister for public expenditure, Deputy Donohoe, that TII was very much in favour of that project going ahead and it is costing much more. It acknowledged that. Some of these questions are parochial and relate to my own area.

I understand the witnesses may not be able to answer them this evening but if I get answers via email or whatever, I will be happy.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator is certainly not the first person to ask questions regarding his area. He can go ahead.

Senator Eugene Murphy

I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach. I have been asked to confirm this but, as far as I am aware, as regards the towns of Elphin and Strokestown - the latter is along the N5 while Elphin is just off it but the new road means it will now be quite close to the N5 - there will be active money for footpaths and cycle lanes. That has been confirmed in the new proposal.

As regards that road, the representatives are probably well aware of the Scramoge road junction on the N5 between Scramoge and Strokestown. It is a major junction with traffic coming from the Carrick-on-Shannon side. It cuts across the main road there and is a very serious junction. That traffic continues to Ballyleague-Lanesborough on the Roscommon-Longford border. A lot of it heads across to Kilteeven onto the N63, the Athlone to Roscommon road, which is a type of shortcut. There has been a debate about lighting that junction for years. An argument went on for years that the ducting was in the ground when it was not. It can now be safely said that the ducting is not in the ground. I ask the TII to do everything it can to try to get public lighting at that cross. It is a major area that is very confusing at night. There have been accidents there. It really needs to be lit up. I am not talking about a massive, expansive lighting programme. Ten or 12 lights could do a lot on it. That junction will now change because the bypass will come out there at Scramoge. It is very important lighting is built into it. I do not think it is built in at present. The witnesses might check that for me.

I will raise the matter of the old N5 road outside Strokestown. The representatives will probably not know the townland, which is called Cloonfree. There is a terrible record of death and injury on it. We lost two people on that road, unfortunately, in 2023. I always say there is one great solution to those very acute bends and, in this instance, we are dealing with an acute bend. Some people say there is a camber on that road. I am not an expert in that area and I do not know. Again, however, the great solution to all those sort of issues with acute bends, where there are accidents, is a flashing light, which tells people to slow down. It is so effective. As people come into Strokestown from the Dublin road, where the old football field used to be, at a place known as the Turn of Farn, one of those lights was put up a number of years ago on the Dublin side of that. It made a massive change but people still crashed coming from the Strokestown side. We campaigned for a long time to get a light on that side, which has been done now. A lot more work has been done on that bend, which is having a very positive effect. I ask the witnesses to bring it back that the light should be put in. I accept it will not be as big a problem when the new road will be there, but there will still be a lot of traffic on that road. It is a problem. The records to date show it has been bad.

I will briefly mention the N63 Athlone to Roscommon road, which goes on to Boyle. That has been pushed back down the road for development - excuse the pun. It should be borne in mind that a lot of the traffic on that route is going between Donegal and Wexford. That is the type of cross-country way it goes. The upgrading of that road has always been on the agenda. It would appear that has been pushed back. I do not have the full details but there is talk about a new road development, regardless of what way it will come out at Athlone, going by Edgeworthstown, County Longford, which, again, is not the way to go. I am sure the witnesses know the N63 road from Athlone to Roscommon, which includes the highly populated area of south Roscommon. There are schools, businesses and churches. It is an extremely busy road. Along the entrance to the Hudson Bay Hotel, which is one very well-known landmark there, there is an 80 km/h speed limit, as far as I know. That road needs to get back on the agenda and needs to go back to where it was.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Is the Senator talking about the N61?

Senator Eugene Murphy

It is the N63. The N61 is the Roosky to Lanesborough road. I am talking about the Athlone-Roscommon road.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I think that is the N61.

Senator Eugene Murphy

Sorry, the N63 is the other one.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Tulsk is on the N63.

Senator Eugene Murphy

The N5 is across from that as well. Some works will be done there. There is talk of a bypass for Tulsk or a new route there. Those are the main issues.

The other matter is Roosky Bridge, which is on the N63. That is a very narrow bridge. A pedestrian cannot get through it if two vehicles are on it. Under active travel, there seem to be proposals to extend the footpath, which is very narrow. We have been looking for a new footpath on the outside of the bridge, which has been done at Carrick-on-Shannon. There is a 45-acre site at Roosky, which was occupied by Glanbia, that is fully serviced. There is a great hope that will be opened up again. If the footpath that is currently proposed is put in, it will close that bridge off to lorries, which will not be able to access the area. That is very important. It will cost more money but we need the footpath to be on the outside of the bridge. I spoke to the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, about this. He has looked at it already.

Those are my few points. I understand that much of it is parochial. Whatever the representatives can answer, they can answer. If they come back with answers, I would appreciate it.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator's question lasted about eight and a half minutes. We will see how much we can get through in one and a half minutes.

Senator Eugene Murphy

There were a lot of questions.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I noticed.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Is the townland on the N5 the Senator mentioned Cloonfree?

Senator Eugene Murphy

Yes.

Mr. Peter Walsh

The Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, raised it with us. As it turns out, it is on the pavement programme to be addressed this year but there was no mention of signs. The camber is certainly something that will be looked at. It is down for attention. I will have to come back to the Senator on the other matters.

Senator Eugene Murphy

That is 100% fine. I think active travel is included in the new-----

Mr. Peter Walsh

Is that in Roosky?

Senator Eugene Murphy

No. It is at Strokestown-Elphin, as part of the new N5 project.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The TII will be able to respond to the Senator regarding his queries.

Mr. Peter Walsh

We might have to get them in some more detail. I do know if I quite trust my memory. Did Mr. O'Neill take down-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

There will be a transcript anyway, but obviously-----

Mr. Peter Walsh

Great. We will then follow up-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

-----the TII can engage directly.

Senator Eugene Murphy

I am willing that the TII comes back to me. I will not put pressure on now. Obviously, I do not expect-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

There will be a transcript anyway but if Senator Murphy wants to email the TII-----

Mr. Peter Walsh

That might be the safest, if the Senator could.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator has certainly given the issues a good airing today.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I have been listening in my office to the vast majority of the meeting. I was at Dunkettle on Monday-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Not everybody is watching the RTÉ committee.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

No. I echo the sentiments expressed, and Senator Murphy alluded to this fact, that there is great pride locally. The address where I live is Dunkettle. I cannot see the motorway but I can hear it. Nonetheless, it is a project that is a long time coming. It is great to have it. I am originally from Little Island so I am well used to traffic and people coming in and out. There are 15,000 employees in that general area. It will be totally transformative in their lives that they will not be sitting in traffic and queueing for a long time in future. Well done to the TII on that. I commend the on-site contractors, who were brilliant and very efficient to deal with. The whole aspect of messaging, communications, the app and drone footage, which occurred weekly, made it an awful lot easier from our perspective as public representatives in not having to deal with many of the queries that would ordinarily come to us. It is a pat on the back for everybody. I commend people on the good work.

Nonetheless, we come here with problems and questions. Mallow relief road was mentioned. Judging from the comments made, it was acknowledged it will receive some type of funding, approval or allocation. It is to be hoped that will be sufficient to allow it progress to where it needs to progress. If there any additional comments to be made other than those made previously, I would welcome a comment on that.

An issue I find integral, for which I am not sure that the mood music is as positive, is the northern distributor road, or the old north ring road, in Cork city. It is something I would have great concern about if it does not progress.

We are facing the prospect of that big set piece that is Dunkettle now, and the next link to the north west is the north ring road, and the whole area of bus lanes, cycle lanes and accessibility being enhanced. It would seem like a missed opportunity if that was not progressed, given that Dunkettle has progressed and it is the next logical step. Very heavy goods vehicles go through Mayfield on into Blackpool and I do not know if that is sustainable into the future. If Mr. Walsh has a comment on the north ring road, I would appreciate hearing it.

Carrigtwohill-Midleton was touched on. It is not in my constituency but I will use the Dunkettle set piece as the reason I am posing the question. As I said, to the north west of the Dunkettle interchange, there is the north ring road and, directly to its east, there is the Carrigtwohill-Midleton link. My understanding is that about 120,000 or 130,000 vehicles pass that stretch of road every day. I hear there will be some safety measures implemented on that road but it will fall short of the complete overhaul or upgrade that is probably required. I will ask a direct question related to that. Is there any other road of that nature in the country that feeds into something like the Dunkettle interchange that is as busy and as of poor of a standard? Mr. Walsh commented on the safety aspects of it earlier. There is a lot of criss-crossing on that dual carriageway and any safety enhancement will be welcome. As a genuine question, is there any other road like it in the country that is as busy and in such a poor state?

I have one more question. It is something I have been working on for about five years and I just seem to be going around in circles. I would appreciate if Mr. Walsh could bring any clarity to it. It goes back to Dunkettle as a good example. Many communities live along motorways. We think about noise mitigation measures nearly after the fact or many of the problems seem to get worse the more heavily trafficked the road becomes. Noise mitigation nearly comes afterwards. Can Mr. Walsh clarify the statutory position of implementing noise mitigation measures? I understand the county council or the local council might have the responsibility to implement noise mitigation prevention measures but they would say that they do not have any specific funding for it. I lobbied the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, for the past few years about getting a line item into the roads budget specifically to allow communities to access some kind of funding to prevent noise disruption. There are corridors along Glanmire, Dunkettle and heading east, where I live, where, when the last noise-mapping exercise was done, the decibel levels were quite high. Perhaps they are not technically in breach of the statutory level allowed. I am interested to hear any thoughts around noise mitigation, such as the funding of it, whose responsibility it is and what role TII plays in it.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Regarding the northern distributor road, there may be two roads that are being considered. One remains within the Cork metropolitan area transport strategy as a road to be delivered. There is then the N40 northern ring, which falls into our jurisdiction. It is not currently part of the priority list or the list for attracting an allocation. Therefore, it will not be progressed by us. The distributor road, as I understand it, is being progressed as an NTA-funded road. I do not know if I can comment any further on that.

Regarding the N25 from Carrigtwohill to Midleton and whether there is another road carrying similar volumes in a similar condition, I do not know offhand. I take it the Deputy is suggesting it is as bad an example as we can find and we should do something about it rather than just gazump it with the worse one.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

There is much development mooted for east Cork in particular. We are on about a big retail facility, akin to Kildare Village, being located somewhere in the east Cork area around Carrigtwohill. It would bring volumes of traffic in addition to what is already there.

Mr. Peter Walsh

I will not comment on land-use strategy and the commercial developments that might come about in that regard. All I can say is that there have been various times when there were different expedients that seemed to be supporting the notion that something significant had to be done with that section of road and it is just no longer on the list for funding. It will not be receiving an allocation this year other than for the safety interventions.

I refer to the review of the national development plan. I am not suggesting that anybody lobby for any particular project. However, the concerns of a local authority roads authority of where deficiencies in the network should be addressed should be focused on in the review of the NDP in general.

Regarding noise, when we develop a project, the environmental impacts of that project need to be mitigated and, as such, noise barriers might be included in the scope of the project. There would be various sensitive receptors and we would have to mitigate that noise. In that case, we are responsible for funding the provision of those and we need to maintain them. Outside of that, our role in noise was contemplated by the State in a revision of the Roads Act some years ago. The clause that would have made it our responsibility to mitigate noise from roads was removed. It is not as if nobody thought about it rather our legislators thought about it and removed it from the Roads Act. Where we are involved in environmental noise and noise from roads is we are a mapping agency for noise assessment, as is Irish Rail for rail projects. Therefore, we undertake noise mapping and we make that available to the local authorities. The EPA has overall responsibility in respect of environmental noise. The local authority is obliged to develop a noise mitigation plan. If any aspect of that was required to be constructed within a motorway reservation, for example, or alongside a national road, we would be involved in the assessment, approval and facilitation of that happening. Where there is a circumstance of that nature, it is a public health issue, so I do not see it as appropriate even for us to be determining what level of mitigation should be required for a given community. In a significant number of cases, we funded and progressed projects where there were subsequent developments entirely outside of our control. The planning authority can zone land and build houses. It would be impossible for us to budget for the mitigation of circumstances such as that.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

Sorry to interrupt but to clarify, let us say a road is at planning and design stage and TII is engaging a contractor or consultant to do it. Is Mr. Walsh saying that at that stage, if something is built into the planning and design phase, when it goes out to tender, it can be accommodated in that way and anything subsequent reverts to the local authority?

Mr. Peter Walsh

If a project has an environmental impact that needs to be mitigated, noise sensitive receptors being one of them, we would have to include a mitigation measure, such as a noise barrier. We would then subsequently have to maintain that and it becomes part of the project. However, where there is an existing road and existing housing and one is suffering an impact of noise, it does not fall to us as the National Roads Authority or TII to do anything other than provide the mapping.

In that circumstance, it is environmental funding that would provide any kind of mitigation. The Department of Transport cannot use roads money to deal with what is a public health issue.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

If it is a health consideration as the noise is excessive, the Department of the environment would be responsible, technically speaking.

Mr. Peter Walsh

Yes.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

That is the first time I have heard that. It is good to know.

I am over time but I ask the Leas-Chathaoirleach to allow me to make a final point relating to Mallow. The mood music for Mallow seems positive and I hope that when TII makes these announcements in the coming days, sufficient funding will be provided for the town. Obviously, the ring road has transformative potential for the town. My wife's family are from Macroom. They see the positive impacts the ring road there has had in their local area. Fingers crossed, that funding will be provided for Mallow.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

During the meeting, I received a query from Councillor Pat Hayes in Mallow on the timescales for the M20 motorway and the Mallow northern relief road, to which reference was made. What is the timescale for the M20?

Mr. Peter Walsh

May I defer to Mr. O'Neill on this issue?

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

Mr. Walsh may do so if I can find a note on it. The preferred transport solution has been identified. An online event was organised for public representatives and so on. We hope elected members found it useful. The design team is overseen by Limerick City and County Council. It is working both on its own behalf and on behalf of Cork County Council. The national roads office down there is also involved. They are overseeing the design team. The project is in phase 3 and the design and environmental assessment is happening. The aim is to have a business case prepared this year. When we have that business case, we will be able to apply for approval gate 1 in the infrastructure guidelines, formerly the public spending code. When that approval gate 1, which is a Cabinet-level approval, comes back, we will be authorised to make the statutory approval application.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

What is the timeline?

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

It is the end of 2024 for making approval gate 1. Mr. Walsh referred to timelines that usually go with that. We will then make the application and Limerick City and County Council will make the application to An Bord Pleanála.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I will not hold Mr. O'Neill to it, but when will people be able to drive on the M20 from Cork to Limerick or vice versa?

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

Does the Leas-Chathaoirleach want me to say it will be in ten to 15 years?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I would prefer Mr. O'Neill to say it will be in three to five years.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

That will not happen, however.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

He is saying it will be in ten to 15 years.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

Time has been spent on the project. I do not expect it will take 15 years. I expect it to take seven, eight or nine years, things going well.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Less than ten years from now, there could be cars driving on the road.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

Perhaps. I expect the construction period on this to be not less than four years, probably five.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

There is land acquisition and so on.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

There is land acquisition and the An Bord Pleanála process.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

As well as CPOs and so on. That is without judicial reviews or that kind of thing.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

Yes. There is a bit of optimism involved in that.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The best case scenario is approximately nine years. Mr. O'Neill stated it could be seven to nine years but seven years would be very optimistic.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

It depends. Approval gates do not have to take-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We might have a directly elected mayor in Limerick by that stage. We might have that by the summer.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

It used to take approximately a fortnight for approvals, 15 years ago. If we could hit that kind of timescale again-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I ask Mr. O'Neill to elaborate on that. Approvals took a fortnight. How long do they take now?

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

They take six months.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Six months. Okay.

Mr. Nigel O'Neill

Basically, that is a long-winded way of saying it is uncertain.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I get that. We talked about the Galway ring road and all the rest of it. The eastern bypass would have been right beside me if it went ahead. I dealt with issues where land was sterilised for roads that did not go ahead and people could not even build house extensions. Some 30 years later, they are still not able to build house extensions. They would have been quite happy to build the extension and, if needs be, knock it down. They would, at least, have had the use of it for 30 years. I get that. At the same time, however, once road reservations are gone, they are gone. There is a challenge there because although they might not be used for roads, they might be used for a greenway, a Luas line or some other form of active travel activities. If you build on them, they are gone forever. I get all that too.

I thank the witnesses for their engagement. A significant number of members and non-members have taken part. I thank the witnesses for their ongoing engagement with the committee and all Members of the Houses. I wish them well in all their endeavours. I will send on the queries for response. I appreciate that they are willing to take those queries on board. I thank Mr. Walsh and Mr. O'Neill for being here to deal with this important matter.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.26 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 6 March 2024.