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Joint Sub-Committee on Mental Health díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 14 Feb 2023

Mental Health Commission Interim Report on CAMHS: HSE

The purpose of today's meeting is for the sub-committee to consider the Mental Health Commission's interim report on the review of provision of Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services, CAMHS. To enable the committee to consider this matter, I am pleased to welcome, from the HSE, Mr. Damien McCallion, chief operations officer; Mr. Jim Ryan, head of mental health operations, Dr. Amir Niazi, national clinical adviser and group lead mental health; Dr. Amanda Burke, executive clinical director for mental health services, CHO west.

All those present in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I will read the note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that any such direction be complied with. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members partaking via MS Teams to confirm that they are on the grounds of Leinster House campus prior to making a contribution to the meeting.

To commence our discussion, I invite Mr. Damien McCallion to make opening remarks on behalf of the HSE.

Mr. Damien McCallion

I thank the Chair and members for the invitation to meet the Joint Sub-Committee on Mental Health to discuss the interim report on provision of child and adolescent mental health services that was recently published by the Mental Health Commission. The Chair introduced my colleagues so I will not repeat their names.

Mental health is influenced by many different factors. While the continued enhancement of specialist mental health services is important, the mental health of our young people depends on a broad public health approach that builds on collaboration across the health services, education sector, statutory and voluntary bodies and with our community. The age of onset of mental health difficulties typically falls around the late teenage years and early twenties. Adverse early childhood experiences can be a significant predictor of serious mental health difficulties in later life. In the development of youth mental health services, it is therefore critical that we prioritise the promotion of good mental health, intervene early when problems develop and ensure clear pathways to community-based mental health services are available to those who need supports. CAMHS is a specialist mental health service for approximately 2% of children and young people who have a moderate to severe mental health disorder. For these children and young people it is particularly important to have access to integrated and person-centred supports provided by a multidisciplinary team of skilled professionals. I acknowledge there are service deficits in access, capacity and consistency in the quality of services we provide. On behalf of the HSE I apologise to any child or young person who has not received the standard of care they are entitled to expect.

However, our CAMHS teams receive almost 22,000 referrals every year and deliver almost 225,000 appointments for children and young people who need support.

CAMHS is challenged by a growth in demand for services coupled with the impact of ongoing staff retention and recruitment difficulties. Between 2019 and 2022, referrals to CAMHS have increased by 16% while the total number of appointments seen has increased by 10% in the same period. At the end of December 2022 there were 4,293 children and young people waiting to be seen. That represents an increase of 21% compared with the previous year. We continue to manage capacity proactively through waiting list initiatives, specifically targeting areas of the country with particular challenges, and those waiting longest. In the period from June to the end of December 758 additional cases have been seen and taken off the CAMHS waiting list. The intention is to continue this initiative in 2023. Every effort is made to prioritise urgent cases so that referrals of young people with high-risk presentations are addresses as soon as possible. This is often within 24 to 48 hours. In 2022, 92.7% of all urgent cases were seen within three working days and 63% of all referrals were offered appointments and seen within 12 weeks. The severity of presenting symptoms, as well as an assessment of risk, is always taken into account in regard to waiting times. However, we recognise that some people are still waiting too long for access to services either in primary care or in CAMHS services. We have seen significant increases in demand for all of our youth mental health services, further adding to the waiting lists in some areas.

There has been a significant investment in youth mental health services and CAMHS over a number of years to meet increased demand and to improve services for children and young people with mental health difficulties. Within the past six years, €22.6 million of development funding has been directed to enhance CAMHS, bringing the total funding to approximately €137 million. Since 2013 an additional 18 CAMHS teams have been established and close to 325 additional whole-time equivalent posts added to the workforce. There are currently 73 multidisciplinary CAMHS teams in place providing important assessment and treatment services. Alongside these target enhancements of capacity in our CAMHS teams we have invested in telehealth, eating disorder teams and inpatient care. Importantly, we have also invested in services such as Jigsaw and primary care psychology for children and young people with mild to moderate mental health difficulties who do not need access to the specialist mental health services that CAMHS provides.

Launched in 2019, the CAMHS operational guideline is another central output from the service improvement and is the standard against which we hold teams to account. The interim report into CAMHS was published by the Mental Health Commission on 23 January. Alongside the national audits arising from the Maskey report, it is an important and welcome contribution to our ongoing work to improve services. The interim report is based on review by the Inspector of Mental Health Services of CAMHS provision in five of our nine community health organisations. Arising from the review the Mental Health Commission has raised both general concerns about the provision of CAMHS and specific concerns regarding a number of children and young people within the care of CAMHS teams in a number of our CHOs. I can reassure the committee that the HSE has taken and will continue to take all concerns very seriously. Any concerns regarding children and young people in its care are promptly and comprehensively addressed.

Of the specific cases referenced by the Mental Health Commission there are no children or young people not being followed up and there are currently no active relevant concerns in regard to those cases. If any parents or young people have concerns about the care they are receiving they should in the first instance contact their CAMHS team and key worker or the HSE’s information online. The HSE has immediately commenced implementation of the recommendation that was for the HSE, which is a clinical review of all open cases not seen in the past six months by a CAMHS team and also those who have been prescribed neuroleptic medication. This review is under way in teams throughout the country and will provide assurance that these children and young people are receiving appropriate care reflective of both their current and future needs. Those impacted by this review will be contacted directly by the relevant CAMHS team. This process is targeted for completion by the end of May this year.

Building on ongoing initiatives, we will move to consolidate and expand our youth mental health improvement programme. The programme will further build capacity within our CAMHS teams in tandem with the continued focus on early intervention and upstream youth mental health services. It will also prioritise the need for fit-for-purpose IT infrastructure, modern premises and support CAMHS teams to operate on the basis of a shared governance model where each clinician works with the full scope of his or her practice. In all aspects, we will have a focus on innovation and on fully utilising telehealth technologies to improve and optimise access to care.

The improvement of mental health supports for our young people will need a co-ordinated response including all aspects of our services, directed by national mental health policy and supported by multi-annual investment. Within the HSE, this programme will be led by two new roles, namely, an assistant national director for services in CAMHS and a clinical lead for youth mental health.

Both roles have been advertised and are the subject of a recruitment process.

Youth mental health will continue to be a key priority for the HSE and will be guided by the Sharing the Vision Implementation Plan 2022-2024. This implementation plan provides a three-year roadmap for the continued development of mental health services. The HSE's work to deliver Sharing the Vision will be driven by a strong outcomes focus and a commitment to report on progress in an open way, including among other things, the online publication of quarterly status reports.

The HSE will continue to collaborate fully with the commission in order to ensure the timely completion of the review. It is welcome that the interim report also highlights that many young people and their families have received excellent care and treatment. The final report will provide an opportunity for the commission to highlight good practice so that learning can be shared throughout the service. At the same time, we acknowledge the deficits in current service provision, including with regard to access, capacity and consistency in the quality of services we provide to children and their families. However, we are not waiting for the final report. We continue to make investment and work in all our CHOs to implement improvements in our youth mental health services for children and their families.

I thank Mr. McCallion and his team for coming in to discuss this extremely important issue, which the sub-committee is very concerned about. Some of the recommendations are general and some are specific. Some have already been addressed by the HSE and some are in the process of being addressed. I ask Mr. McCallion to give more detail on the general, the specifics and, in particular, the measures that have already been taken. What is the timeline for concluding the implementation of the recommendations?

Mr. Damien McCallion

I might start and I will then call on some of my colleagues. The report contains two specific recommendations. One relates to the regulation of CAMHS, which is a policy issue for the Department. The second relates to a review of all open cases over six months old and where children were prescribed particular medication. We have initiated that review and, as mentioned, we have a target to finish that review by May.

The report made a number of points and observations on areas such as governance, IT, buildings, the team model and so on. Those were not specific recommendations but essentially were conclusions the commission came to. There are a lot of improvements going on, and I will ask my colleague Mr. Ryan to speak about them shortly. We have consolidated the learning from the Maskey review and from this report under one oversight group with two new appointments. One is a clinical lead for CAMHS who will work alongside our clinical lead for mental health as part of that. The other is an executive lead to drive these changes through with CAMHS in order to try to provide further support to our CHOs. All those observations, conclusions and findings within the report are being addressed. That has already commenced at national level. In the intervening period, on the HR side, we have been looking at how we can expedite the recruitment and increase the numbers of people working in the teams. We are also looking at an IT system. Some work was ongoing on that already. We are also looking at areas such as our estates.

I will ask Mr. Ryan to speak about one or two of the other areas in respect of progress was already under way. There was an ongoing dialogue as part of the commission's review. It was not that the report just landed. Many of the observations, particularly those relating to individual cases, were fed through and dealt with as we went through it. The publication simply pulled all that together.

Mr. Jim Ryan

The commission informed us that it was commencing its review in February 2022. The interim report published in January covered five CHOs. It identified issues in four of the five CHOs. Prior to publication of the report, we had been engaging comprehensively with the commission over a number of months. When it identified issues in those four areas, we engaged with the commission both locally and nationally to ensure that the individual issues raised were being addressed. The specific recommendations for those four areas have been addressed comprehensively and we communicated with the commission on an ongoing basis even prior to the publication of the report.

Regarding the Mental Health Commission interim report, am I correct in reading that before the interim report was published, the HSE had become aware of some of the findings and issues as the commission became aware of them? In effect, that there was an ongoing dialogue ahead of the interim report being published.

Mr. Damien McCallion

Correct.

I welcome that such engagement is happening. Let us extend that to the remaining four areas. Can we expect any issues of concern for the remaining four areas that will be the subject of the final report which have not already entered the public domain? Are there any areas of particular concern that have been brought to the HSE's attention through its engagement with the Mental Health Commission?

Mr. Damien McCallion

We have a constant engagement with the commission. We set up a formal process to ensure that if individual issues arose, they could be dealt with as Mr. Ryan described in the previously-examined CHOs. We have not had anything escalated to us nationally, and I do not believe we have had anything within the CHOs either.

Mr. Jim Ryan

No, I think three of the other four have been either completed or almost completed. As is normally the case, there is a feedback session at the end of the review. To date, we have not had any issues raised with us. I think the last one is starting today.

Regarding the concerns and issues, both general and specific, raised in the interim report can we be assured there will not be any surprises when the final report is published?

Mr. Damien McCallion

In fairness, I would not pre-empt the work of the commission.

Of course not, but from the HSE's perspective at this point in time, no surprises are expected?.

Mr. Damien McCallion

No, and I think in fairness to the commission, when issues were found in individual cases during its work, it always alerted us immediately, which is what we would want and expect. Those were dealt with accordingly. On the broader issues, they are fairly comprehensive regarding the areas identified that we need to work on. As I mentioned earlier, as those were flagged along the way and in the interim report, we have worked to improve those. Some of them are not short-term things to fix. In terms of resourcing, they require strategic actions that will help increase the number of people we have available to work in CAMHS, and to retain there, for the longer term. At this stage, we have not had anything that has been escalated.

Regarding hiring and retaining professionals, how many posts are to be filled? Is there difficulty in filling some posts? Is the lack of appointments causing its own challenges and difficulties?

Mr. Damien McCallion

In total, we have 789 whole-times working and our target under the Vision for Change numbers would be to get over 1,200 people in the team. We still have a way to go to get to full coverage within the teams and that work is ongoing. We have initiatives to try to improve the pipeline and to increase the number of people who are available to work in CAMHS. It is a multidisciplinary approach

We have been told, in the mid west in particular, that children were "lost in the system", to use that awful term, because of staff shortages caused by people retiring or resigning and the delay before a replacement was hired. Are we in a position now where that type of vulnerability cannot happen again?

Dr. Amir Niazi

Regarding the consultant posts, of the 73 CAMHS teams providing secondary mental health service, there is one post where we have an ongoing challenge to recruit a consultant. The post is in Kerry. It was advertised a few times and we know the reasons that post is not very popular. Other than that, there are two posts which are in the normal process of recruitment. People either retired or moved from one area to another. There is ongoing recruitment and we do not see a challenge filling those posts.

Other than general secondary mental health services or CAMH services, there are specialist services like eating disorder or mental health of intellectual disability, MHID, in children.

Yes, there is a challenge in the MHID area. We are all aware of that. We have increased the number of trainees at a high specialist training level to develop those skills and enable them to take up those posts. We have vacancies in that area. In addition, we are recruiting consultants for clinical programmes and other areas. That is an ongoing process.

Regarding multidisciplinary staff, there are issues in specific areas with filling posts at a senior grade in psychology and, in some areas, in recruiting other allied health professionals. Nursing is a challenge, especially on the east coast, where the cost of living and all those things make it very challenging to recruit to some of those posts. However, that is not specific to mental health. It is an issue overall in the health services.

Mr. Damien McCallion

My colleague, Mr. Ryan, might address Senator Conway's question on the mid-west.

Mr. Jim Ryan

The Senator mentioned a specific issue in the mid-west, whereby it was difficult to fill a particular consultant post. That has since been rectified.

That is great. I have one more question. In terms of oversight of the work the HSE will be doing into the future, will the witnesses give their view on how strong that oversight is? Clearly, we do not want a situation in which the Mental Health Commission will have to carry out these types of in-depth drill-downs in to get to the bottom of issues. Is there anything the committee can do in this regard, including making recommendations to strengthen oversight further?

Mr. Damien McCallion

From the HSE's perspective, we have a national performance and accountability framework that covers all our services. Each CHO, including the one covering the mid-west, as the Senator mentioned, has a chief officer. Under that, a head of mental health services and an executive clinical director works alongside each other to oversee all mental health services and the CAMHS teams. Dr. Burke might speak further about that. There is a strong accountability framework within the HSE.

The Mental Health Commission undertook its review of CAMHS on a one-off basis. As the Senator may know, one of its recommendations was that the service should be regulated in the long term. There has been a gradual increase in regulation of mental health services. My colleagues might comment briefly on that. The commission's work is a matter for the Department and a policy matter for the Government.

That is good. I thank the witnesses and the Chairman.

I welcome the witnesses. It seems like we see each other every week at this stage. I will stay with the staffing issue. How many of the teams are fully staffed?

Mr. Damien McCallion

At the moment, none of the teams necessarily has full capacity. Their levels range from 45% to 75% of the ultimate target they should have under A Vision for Change.

Will Mr. McCallion repeat that?

Mr. Damien McCallion

There is a range of 45% to 75% in the teams in terms of the numbers that are there. Some of the teams will vary in their targets against A Vision for Change. The latter set out the number of teams there should be per 100,000 population and the size of those teams. That is the range in place.

Is there no team at above 74% staffing?

Mr. Damien McCallion

That is the highest level.

Mr. Jim Ryan

Without getting too technical about it, we have 73 teams. We are at approximately 83% staffing levels among those teams. However, as Mr. McCallion said earlier, what the population now requires is in the region of approximately 1,200 staff.

Is Mr. Ryan saying the numbers are increasing as the HSE tries to fill the posts?

Mr. Jim Ryan

The population is much higher than it was in 2006 when A Vision for Change was written. We are looking at the model and whether what was set out in 2006 is fit for purpose into the future. In looking at the reality of where we are recruiting, we have to consider whether it is the best model we can utilise to make the best value.

Some teams are at 74% and others might be at 50%. What happens in those cases? Does the waiting list just get longer, are certain cases being prioritised or are other teams in an adjacent jurisdiction taking on some of that caseload, depending on the discipline?

Dr. Amanda Burke

It very much depends on the composition of the teams and the strengths within them. It will depend on what disciplines are represented on the team, what capacity there is and whether or not the team is working within a clinical directorate.

For example, in my own area, we work within a clinical directorate so we may have more capacity to cross-cover areas. People move on and they get promotional posts; there has been a lot of movement and vacancies take a while to fill. We look at the entirety of our staff and move them around, depending on need. Just because one team is not fully staffed would not mean a child is necessarily compromised and we could source their treatment from an adjacent area.

Is that prioritised on the basis of urgency or need?

Dr. Amanda Burke

It is prioritised on the basis of clinical need, depending on the care plan.

We talked about various posts but, in terms of understaffing, are there particular multidisciplinary posts for which there is a dearth of staff in certain areas?

Dr. Amanda Burke

Again, in my own area, we sometimes struggle more with health and social care professional posts. We are possibly competing with other agencies where there has been an expansion, for example, there are other posts coming into primary care and disability services, so there is a lot of competition for posts. It can sometimes be slow to recruit there.

We are in the west of Ireland and we do not have as much of a problem with consultant psychiatrists at the moment compared to some other areas. Consultant recruitment is an international problem and it is not peculiar to Ireland, but there are particular areas of Ireland where we have a dearth of psychiatrists.

The Deputy mentioned nursing, in particular in regard to the east of the country, and I think that has to do the cost of living.

Mr. Damien McCallion

There is certainly an east coast challenge that is not just unique to CAMHS and it applies to other services. There has been significant investment in increasing the number of nurses and psychiatrists, as well as an associate psychologist scheme which has seen over 140 in the last six to ten years, and I have some numbers on those. A fair bit of work has been done to try to improve that. As Dr. Burke said, one of the other challenges is that by investing similarly in our primary care services, we are finding that people are moving within the system, which often creates a vacuum for a period until posts are filled, if they can be filled.

At an overall level, one of the pieces of work, which we have talked about at other committees, is around trying to have a resourcing strategy that would increase the number of nurses, therapists and so on that are being trained. I know that, for example, the number of speech and language therapists trained every year is inadequate relative to the vacancies but that is not something we can grow overnight. It is not just training in the higher education sector and we have to have systems in place that can provide them with their clinical adaptation and training. We are also trying to invest in that this year to fill the gap because the way the education sector works, it is a four, five or six-year cycle until we generate those numbers.

We are commencing international recruitment on a more extensive scale for health and social care professionals this year, although it is a bit of an unknown on the scale we are going to try to look for it. We also have big challenges with health and social care professionals in the area of disabilities.

We have talked a little in other committees and this committee about workforce planning, and I know there was an ask from the Oireachtas in terms of whether there is a formal framework being set up with the HSE and the Department, but also bringing in the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and perhaps the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to look at bursaries and so on. Is that happening? When was the last major event that happened?

Mr. Damien McCallion

At the policy level around education, that is something the Department typically leads on and we would feed into that in terms of what our needs are across all of our services. We have a resourcing plan around that in terms of trying to best predict what we think we are going to need.

To illustrate the point, in previous years, we would normally have turnover in the health system of around 9,000 but, last year, that jumped to nearly 13,000, so just to stand still we had to recruit an extra 3,000 to 4,000, and we still recruited just under 6,000 – or perhaps 5,500 - in total numbers. At that level, there is work with the Department. We have our own resourcing plan and it is working very closely with us around those particularly difficult grades to fill.

Mr. Damien McCallion

It is. There has been engagement in terms of trying to set targets with higher education on the numbers in terms of growing it for those particularly difficult grades.

How often do they meet?

Mr. Damien McCallion

I can get the Deputy the details on that. That process has been initiated and the first thing for us was to develop that. We have a workforce strategy group that I co-chair with a director of human resources, and that meets monthly. We look at particular services in particular months, and we looked at mental health-----

That is feeding back statistics every month to the Department.

Mr. Damien McCallion

It is a moving target. Coming out of the pandemic, we would not have predicted the number or scale, or that we would have a 3,000 to 4,000 jump in turnover of staff. We all know that people have travelled, given healthcare professionals could not move for two or three years. We have to see what this year will bring around that as an example. Equally important, and the Deputy alluded to this, for areas where it is harder to attract or retain, we are looking at the specifics.

Mr. Jim Ryan

If it is okay, I might add a couple of things. Regarding the disciplines that relate specifically to mental health, such as consultant psychiatrists, there has been a doubling in the numbers who have gone through HSE or higher specialist training through an investment we made with the College of Psychiatrists of Ireland, which has been helpful. From a psychology point of view, where there is a gap across the country, we invest about €5 million a year in assistant psychologists, many of whom go on to do the clinical programme afterwards. We are growing our own. We are spending about €4 million a year on psychiatric nursing higher education in order to be able to extend and increase the number of undergraduate and postgraduate courses that are targeted at psychiatric nursing across the higher education sector. We clearly saw the need here. Around 250 were graduating and we would need more than that in order to meet the demand. One of our challenges is how many of those we retain when they qualify because between private facilities, travel and other opportunities we may not be getting the return we would have hoped for. In the areas in which we have specifics that we can advocate for with regard to mental health, or where there is a specific role, we have invested over the last number of years. We are very conscious of the need to grow the base. A lot of the new posts we have been putting in are at a senior level and normally around 80% of our promotional posts come from within our service.

On a related issue, one of the things the Mental Health Commission pointed out is that we should really have 72 CAMHS beds but because of operational issues, that number fluctuates. When do we envisage all beds being fully operational?

Mr. Jim Ryan

As the Deputy will know, we have four inpatient units, with ones in Cork and Galway and two in Dublin. At the moment we have an operational number of about 55 beds. There is a bed meeting going on as we speak that will tell us how many young people are in there at the moment. Last week it was 31 and there were two or three on the waiting list or in triage. The Deputy is right that staffing is a significant issue. I was before this committee last year about Linn Dara and we had a plan then to reopen the closed 11 beds. Unfortunately, the number of staff we were able to recruit did not allow us to do that so that unit is still operating with 13 of the 24 beds. Operationally, we have similar challenges in recruitment, particularly at the nursing level and in the Dublin units but also in Galway and Cork. I cannot give the Deputy a timeline for when we will be able to open all of those beds but in the meantime we have a very focused meeting every Tuesday morning about how many young people have been referred, whether they are in triage or being assessed and then there is a prioritisation of those young people across all four units. Dr. Burke can say more on that as a child psychiatrist.

Dr. Amanda Burke

It is important to state that as well as inpatient beds we are putting a lot of focus on developing alternatives to inpatient care. It is a big deal to admit a young person to a psychiatric unit. We are trying to enhance the intermediate tier through our CAMHS hubs. These provide a seven-day service as an alternative to inpatient admission. They are aimed at people who need more than the standard community mental health team can offer but who can be kept at home in the evenings and attend a number of things. There are pilots in these areas. The best-developed pilot is probably the one between Galway and Roscommon. It has shown significant decreases in inpatient capacity need, as well as shortened patient stays. It keeps people out of hospital and gets them out earlier and they are enabled to attend school. Those models are in various stages of development across four CHOs. That is making a difference.

We are also doing a lot more assertive outreach where the inpatient teams who have the expertise in these complicated and complex cases consult with other areas. They will give advice and they might say they do not think inpatient admission is in a young person's interests at this moment in time. They would say what they think should be done and will continue to link with them on that. We are developing that in tandem with the inpatient service. Across all our units, there would have been a decrease in stays. We have massively improved as to the number of young people admitted to adult units over the last number of years. There were 20 last year.

Of those 20 young people, a number have been offered beds in inpatient CAMHS units, but for various reasons, usually geography or being near their 18th birthday, they declined those. We have really made an improvement there, I am pleased to say.

It is interesting Dr. Burke has brought it up because I wish to finish on some questions about the Connect remote hubs. Will the HSE give us an update on the pilots, first of all? I know about Galway and Roscommon. It was said there are four in development.

Dr. Amanda Burke

Galway-Roscommon is one unit and we call it CAMHS Connect. It was innovative in that the hub is actually in Castlerea in Roscommon, which is not traditionally where we would put a hub. Normally, we put hubs in our cities, but Castlerea is working very well for us because geographically we can reach into Mayo, which we cover as well, and that provides a service there. We are trying to get into these geographically disparate areas. I do not want to give the impression a hub is just all e-mental health. A hub is a hybrid model. It takes young people where they are located. If they need to be seen in the home, then they need to be seen there. They can be seen on site or they can use a hybrid model with telepsychiatry as well. It give me great flexibility with the staff in my particular area because the consultant can see young people in Galway but they are also available on site in Castlerea, so there is that cross-cover if there is an emergency situation. There is great flexibility in that for us.

That sounds very dynamic. I imagine it would be suitable for tailoring to many people's needs.

Dr. Amanda Burke

Yes.

What is the cost of setting up a hub like that?

Dr. Amanda Burke

They are different stages of development.

Let us take the Galway-Roscommon one, which seems to be up and running.

Dr. Amanda Burke

We have a hybrid in that we have taken some of our staff from our inpatient unit, so there are three.

I am asking for setup costs rather than daily operational ones. If we were to roll that out throughout the country, what would the ICT requirements be? What is the setup or capital cost?

Mr. Damien McCallion

It would not be enormous. It depends on whether we have existing buildings we can utilise. There may be some cost in some geographies and not in others.

Dr. Amanda Burke

We utilise existing buildings.

Did the services need particular ICT?

Dr. Amanda Burke

We did and we can get the Deputy a costing for that. I just do not have it off the top of my head.

Mr. Damien McCallion

It would not be enormous in the context of the wider budget. Many of the audiovisual costs and so on have reduced. There would certainly be a cost but it would not be enormous in the context of it.

Dr. Amanda Burke

It could be set up with six whole-time equivalents, WTEs, but they would obviously be different grades of staff.

How many would we be looking at for every corner of the country?

Mr. Jim Ryan

Our plan at the moment, as the Deputy knows, is four more CAMHS hubs in development in community healthcare organisations, CHOs, 3, 4, 6 and 8. We will probably be looking at an operating budget in the region of €750,000 each, but on top of that it would be necessary to look at whether ICT-----

That is an annual budget.

Mr. Jim Ryan

Yes, that is the revenue cost. Then there may be once-off costs to bring the building up to specification or if it is necessary to rent the building. On the costs, therefore, and looking across the country, the bigger issue, in some ways, is ensuring the staffing we have is in the right place at the right time. The overall question is, if we have 789 staff and additional staff coming in, where they are going to come from because we do not want to be drawing from existing services.

I completely accept that. However, to be clear, given Mr. Ryan said four hubs are in development, have we a map somewhere that shows the amount we need is and how we would cover the country? It might not be required in the middle of Dublin but I am just asking whether somebody has a visualisation somewhere that shows many hubs we should have in a perfect world.

Dr. Amir Niazi

When we say four, including CHO 2 we will be developing five hubs.

Yes, but how many would we like to end up with?

Dr. Amir Niazi

The plan is to have one for each CHO, so nine in total. That is the target we envision.

Thus we are kind of halfway there. They would have an annual revenue requirement per hub of about €750,000. What would be the capital cost to set that up? Is it something similar?

Mr. Damien McCallion

It will vary, as I said. In some cases the buildings could be adapted for very low cost and in others it might require a bespoke development, so it will vary.

Is the funding available yet from the Department to set up nine hubs? Our guests seem to be indicating it is not. Is that because the executive is only pursuing four?

Mr. Jim Ryan

We have not asked for that yet because, as usual, we learn a lot from each one as we do it.

Dr. Amir Niazi

Also, each CHO does not have the same population, so their needs are different.

The staffing will be different for each team depending on the size and the needs of the CHO. That is the way we are developing, starting with the posts team and developing in respect of the need and what is required.

That makes sense. I thank Dr. Niazi and the Chair.

Did Dr. Burke wish to come in there?

Dr. Amanda Burke

No

I thank Deputy Hourigan and call Deputy Ward.

I thank the Chair and everybody in attendance. I thank the Mental Health Commission for bringing this report forward and Dr. Susan Finnerty, in particular, because the commission published this report early. Having this conversation early rather than waiting for the publication of the full report was needed.

I also want to acknowledge what our guest speakers acknowledged at the very start, which was the excellent care which some children receive under the care of CAMHS. Unfortunately, in our position, it is the parents of those who are not receiving the care who contact us on a regular basis.

I have a number of questions. The Mental Health Commission raised specific concerns in respect of four out of five of the community healthcare organisation, CHO, areas. I believe it was CHO 3, 4 and 5 and CHO 7, which is my area in Dublin mid west, where concerns were raised.

Can our guest speakers confirm that the one area where no concerns were raised by the Mental Health Commission was a service operated by an independent operator outside of the HSE?

Mr. Jim Ryan

This service is provided by Lucena Clinic Services, which is a St. John of God-provided service. That service has worked very hand-in-glove with the HSE over the years. As the Deputy may know, in adult mental health, the mental health services in that part of south Dublin are provided by Cluain Mhuire Community Mental Health Services, which again is a St. John of God service but it is contracted by the HSE to deliver the service on behalf of the population of that area. It is not a commercial operation but is part and parcel of the way in which service is provided in that area. It is external to the HSE.

I want to ask about and discuss some of the more systemic, run-of-the-mill failures highlighted by the report. I worked in front-line addiction services which were funded through the HSE and through the local drug and alcohol task forces, and I remember doing my reports. Our reports had to be up-to-date in respect of care plans, files and so on. Basically, we were scrutinised by the HSE and our funding could have been stopped at that stage.

In respect of Lucena Clinic Services, what is that service provider doing right and what can the HSE learn from that service in terms of what is not being done in the other four CHO areas?

Mr. Jim Ryan

Lucena is an excellent service, as are many of our own services, as acknowledged by the Deputy earlier. One of the benefits which Lucena has had is a mental health information system which it developed through the St. John of God Order over a number of years. This was acknowledged by the commission in its report. The benefit this system provides in many ways is that it gives an opportunity for the tracking of the services that are being delivered. That is something that clearly we completely want and we have already taken steps, having received the report. In fact, prior to that, where we are putting in a system which is also going to work across CAMHS.

One of the major advantages Lucena Clinic Services had was that it had that system in place over a number of years.

How far away is the HSE into implementing that system across the other CHO areas?

Mr. Jim Ryan

We are not implementing the one specific-----

Is it a similar system?

Mr. Jim Ryan

Yes, we are putting in a similar system. In fact, we have a situation where we will put an interim system in place across the service and negotiations are going on today, as we speak, with regard to implementing that across, I believe, five CHOs which require an interim system in advance of what we would hope, over a period of time, would become a more fundamental integrated community case management system, ICCMS. That is the case.

Mr. Damien McCallion

Yes, and if I may add briefly for the Deputy, the ICCMS is a case management system, which I am sure the Deputy would know from his work in addiction services as well as how important that is-----

Mr. Damien McCallion

-----particularly in the community. This would be a system which would operate across all community services and we are currently going through the approval process with the Department to get to the point where we can go to tender for that as a solution right across the community. As Mr. Ryan mentioned, we are not waiting for that and we are expecting something back this week with regard to an interim system which could support services. Again, and Dr. Burke may wish to speak about this, it is very difficult in some of the teams. It is not the only factor and there are other factors, as the members said, which we need to address within the teams. Certainly, this would help the teams in managing their caseload and communicating with each other around that. IT systems would go towards that.

Dr. Amanda Burke

This would be one of our biggest deficits at this moment in time. We are completely paper-based. For example, the recent audits, which were completely needed, required people to stand at filing cabinets and to pull files individually to look at them. We need an electronic system like that. Ideally, we need electronic patient care records because even if we are talking about the CAMHS Connect model, one could be seeing people in varying sites across the area.

Trying to transport clinical and paper-based files between them is a logistical nightmare and also risky, because files can get lost. We really need electronic patient records and a good system in order that we can communicate seamlessly with our GPs and labs, and get lab results back in real time. It is a big deficit for us and it is something we really struggle with. We are very much looking forward to the new system.

I agree 100%. Without taking it lightly, I think it is bonkers that in 2023 we are still talking about getting to a system where we are not using paper-based filing systems, carrying files, standing and stopping at filing cabinets and all that kind of stuff. I welcome that an interim solution is imminent but it is something that we need to get in place as soon as possible. It will make a big difference to the care that children are getting.

Mr. Damien McCallion

The Deputy referred to the GP side. There is an interim initiative that we are trying to move on to improve referrals. Perhaps Mr. Ryan can speak to that.

Mr. Jim Ryan

As the Deputy is aware, one of the issues that GPs have raised is the inability to refer patients electronically and for our own system to communicate back. Again, in advance of the commission's report, the need to enhance was something that was highlighted by GPs. I got a note this morning in relation to the ICT system. Six options were looked at but we have narrowed that down to two. By early next week, we expect to have made a decision on which one of those will act as an interim solution in advance of the integrated case management system, ICMS, over the next couple of years.

That is welcome news going forward. Going back to the systemic failures, there were no complaints on the national risk register, a number of teams expressed the view that it was pointless escalating risk as nothing happened. That is bad practice. This has frustrated some teams to the extent that they told the Mental Health Commission that they did not bother to escalate risk as there was no point at that stage. I have a couple of questions in relation to that. I also have a few questions on the three audits being conducted currently by the HSE into CAMHS on the prescribing practices, the compliance with CAMHS operational guidelines and the research into the service users' experience of CAMHS. Has the HSE identified some of the same concerns that the Mental Health Commission did at this stage?

Mr. Damien McCallion

I might refer to Dr. Niazi to speak to the prescribing audit which is just concluding, and perhaps Mr. Ryan can speak to the other two audits to which the Deputy has referred. In fairness, a lot of the issues that were highlighted by the commission had been identified and were part of an improvement. The Maskey report into CAMHS in Kerry also identified some of those issues across how services are organised and need to be improved.

Some of the concerns that the Mental Health Commission found are there.

Mr. Damien McCallion

Some similar concerns are there.

Why has the HSE not produced an interim report and brought it into the public domain?

Mr. Damien McCallion

I will address the review, but I want to give the Deputy assurance in relation to the issues within this report and the Maskey report. There is a national oversight group that we are involved in around the Maskey report. We have expanded that now to be that national improvement group to bring all of the learnings from all of this, and all of the other areas of innovation that Dr. Burke and Mr. Ryan have identified, to try to make sure there is a structure to get those in throughout the country, whether it is the hubs or whatever it may be. On the three audits, I might refer to Dr. Niazi to speak briefly to the prescribing audit first, which is just concluding.

Dr. Amir Niazi

First of all, whatever was mentioned in the commission's report, many of those initiatives were already being taken. Following the publication of the Maskey report, a lot of work was started in CAMHS. We were aware of most of those things which were highlighted in the report. In fact, we provided most of that information to the commission when it came to visit our sites. In relation to the audits, there are not three, but seven audits in CAMHS. The Deputy mentioned three of them and we have started two more. There is one on patients who have not been seen within six months who have lost a follow-up, and one on the neuroleptic medication and the physical health monitoring. The commission did its own audit and the College of Psychiatrists of Ireland also did its own audit. There were seven audits done in total. Out of the three that the Deputy has mentioned, the prescribing audit was completed last week and we are hoping to make the findings available in the coming week. The findings of that audit are very similar those of the commission report. The teams are performing at 90% to 95% in most of the areas. The data were collected anonymously. All the patients were coded with numbers and the data were looked at. To improve that further, we are now are decoding all the data and going back to the individual teams to identify where the gaps were to see how we can improve it. I am also looking to get commentary on the shortfalls.

The audit covered a specific period, from July 2021 to December 2021. When we asked the team about the gap in physical health monitoring, it made it clear that it was in the middle of the pandemic. We were also facing the cyberattack. Most of the assessments were done virtually in front of a screen, so physical monitoring of the children was not possible. Even families were reluctant to bring children in for monitoring. If there were gaps, we have an idea as to why, but we are still going back to the teams to investigate the shortfalls and determine how we can improve.

In its report, the Mental Health Commission escalated concerns to the HSE; however, as far as I know, the HSE did not escalate them to the Minister of State responsible for mental health. She said that on the floor of the Dáil when I asked a question about it. She knew there were concerns but did not know their nature. To me, that is a big gap. As legislators, we have a responsibility in this regard. At many times, it must feel like we are critical – we are where it is warranted – but I would like to think we focus on solution-based measures. Having a Minister of State in the dark about some of the concerns is not good practice. Why was the Minister of State not aware of the nature of the concerns? If there are concerns or gaps referred to in other reports concerning the HSE, has the Minister of State been told about them? If not, why not?

Mr. Damien McCallion

As the commission’s report was being produced, the Minister of State would have been briefed.

On the individual issues, one case in the mid-west, where 140 cases were identified, was actually identified by the service in its own risk assessment. The commission noted it in the report. It was not necessarily that the commission had to uncover it. The issues were dealt with. All issues concerning clear patient safety concerns were addressed. We have an escalation policy that involves notifying the Department and so on. Where there is an issue of major concern in any individual case or where there is a tragedy, there is a protocol that we follow. In this instance, issues were identified in some cases by the service and in others by the commission, but they were then resolved. If something were serious, obviously the Minister would be notified in regard to it. There is a threshold; if there were not, a Minister would be notified of a huge number of issues almost daily. That is the context.

Mr. Jim Ryan

With regard to the specifics, there were four areas in which issues were identified. We were made aware of them when the commission was going through the process. We were dealing with them on a day-to-day, week-to-week basis. Our judgment was that we were on top of it because we were engaging specifically with the commission on the issues it raised in the mid-west, the Deputy’s constituency and the south east. We were confident that the issues being raised were being dealt with appropriately both at local and national levels by us, which was the correct way. Where there are issues of policy or wider issues, we obviously engage with the Minister and the officials in the Department on an ongoing basis. However, the issues in question were operational in many respects, and that is the way we were dealing with them.

Mr. Damien McCallion

I assure the Deputy that if there is an issue of wider public concern or a safety concern – we would have had one in recent days but I will not mention it – it is notified to the Department. There is a very clear protocol relating to how they get escalated. They are managed carefully. We are not doing our job if we are not managing them on the ground as well.

I have a couple of questions on the transfer from CAMHS to adult mental health services, AMHS. One of the shortfalls identified in the report relates to this. It could have been one of the key factors related to the number of children lost to follow-up. The delegates will agree that most acute mental health illnesses among young adults occur between the ages of 16 and 25. We know that already. With regard to the young people lost to follow-up, who should have been transferred from CAMHS to AMHS but were not, there should be engagement between the two services six months before a child’s 18th birthday. The report states this did not happen in most cases. What was the reason for the breakdown?

Mr. Jim Ryan

The definition refers to the period until a young person’s 18th birthday. The Deputy is quite right that it is suggested in our CAMHS operating guideline that there has to be engagement between CAMHS and general adult services six months prior to the transfer of the young person.

That has definitely been a challenge in some parts of the country, especially in the cases of young people who may have ADHD as part of their-----

Mr. Jim Ryan

-----overall mental health concerns. The young people lost a follow-up in the major one in the mid-west. I do not think this was a particular issue there around the transfer aspect, but it is definitely an issue we have identified. In fact, the Deputy will probably be aware that, under the implementation of Sharing the Vision, we have a work stream specifically looking at the transition from CAMHS to general adult mental health services. This is because every time we have a delineation between two services there will be times when young people will get caught between the two services.

Mr. Jim Ryan

We absolutely understand there is a need to accentuate and enhance the services in the CAMHS and general adult contexts for that time between the two six-month periods. There are times in which young people, and Dr. Burke and Dr. Niazi will say this, are kept in CAMHS. An example would be young people coming up to their leaving certificate examinations. The natural thing to do there would be to hold on until such time as they have gone through that. A very sensible approach is taken. This is an area, though, where we definitely have more work to do and I am not sure-----

Yes, there is a recommendation in the Sharing the Vision policy to extend this provision out to 25, if I am correct?

Mr. Jim Ryan

That is correct.

Dr. Amanda Burke

I am on that work stream and I feel passionately about the fact that we need to get this transition right. The services in this regard are very different in their approaches and compositions. It is a big change for families, as the Deputy said. Parents will have been completely involved in their child's care up to the age of 18 and then suddenly this young person will be going in on their own to a team without their family. We must change this model. The subgroup is looking at this point. We have made several recommendations, which we will be sending on shortly now, and we hope some of these will be resourced in the short term.

The move up to the age of 25 is a more medium-term to long-term undertaking, because it will require a whole paradigm shift as to how we do our business. We do, though, believe there is an interim change that we can undertake in a programmatic approach. By this, I mean the ADHD model, for example. We will be looking at that model of care in CAMHS and aligning it with the ADHD model of care in adults, because this is one of the most problematic transitions now as we are building our new capacity within the adult teams to look after ADHD. These teams are only coming on stream. The transfer of people across to those services in that context is probably one of our most problematic issues. Dr. Niazi might wish to speak more about this point.

Dr. Amir Niazi

To continue from what Dr. Burke said, we developed an adult ADHD clinic and programme. It is almost 60% developed, and we will be developing the rest of it. We then felt there was a gap in transition, which we learned about from the Maskey report and this one. Last week, we appointed a lead to work on the national model of care for CAMHS ADHD and also on the transition element. Once we have a model of care for children and a transition into adult ADHD services, I think we will streamline the whole process and this will address the gaps which exist now. The professor who took on the job is going to work with me over the next six to 12 months to complete the work in this model of care. This will have two parts. The first is to standardise the treatment for children with ADHD and the second is to have a clear plan of transition from children to adult services. We know almost 50% of children attending our CAMHS teams who are on medication have a diagnosis of ADHD. It is a major aspect to address.

I was contacted by a parent during the week and there were also reports in the newspapers concerning a young Irishman who was a patient of CAMHS. He spent more than three years in an adult facility here and has now been transferred over to Britain for treatment. I do not know if the witnesses saw this case referred to during the week. This young man's mother contacted me. She rang the hospital in Britain because she was worried about what the treatment over there was going to be like, how her son would make friends and things like that. This is anecdotal evidence, but his mother told me there are loads of Irish people over in Britain. How often does it happen that young adults are transferred over to Britain for treatment? How many times does it happen each year? What is the cost to the Exchequer?

Mr. Jim Ryan

We have reduced the numbers of young people travelling to Britain for treatment significantly in the last several years. Eating disorders, for example, were one context where we would have had to transfer young people because we were not able to do a particular type of treatment here. This is no longer the case. It is very unusual for this to happen in the case of a young person, particularly those with eating disorders. Where we have young people with specific issues and needs, of which there are a relatively small number but every young person is important to us, it may be the case at times because of the size of the country that there may be issues which arise in a small number of cases for which we do not have a service here.

The UK has a much larger population and has more and different issues. We may, at times, need young people to leave the jurisdiction. That is done with careful planning and on the advice of the local mental health service and any other service that is involved. Other services are also involved most of the time.

The Courts Service would also be involved.

Mr. Jim Ryan

That is absolutely the case. I do not want to get into specifics but in general terms, we try to minimise the number of young people who have to be treated abroad because of the obvious concerns of family members and others, and because of concerns in respect of those young people's reintegration into Irish society.

I might come in again later but I will give another committee member the chance to contribute.

I thank our guests for their contributions to the meeting thus far. I have a number of questions about the report, which is what we are here to discuss. Would our guests agree with the assessment that the lack of clinical oversight and governance was at the heart of the interim report of the Mental Health Commission?

Mr. Damien McCallion

One of the strong recommendations of the commission related to the model. However, a broad range of areas we need to tackle and address are outlined in the report. I would not say clinical oversight and governance are the only issues. A broad range of issues that will have to be addressed to improve the service were identified in the report. It also recognised that the service is working very well in certain services in some parts of the country. We talked at the start of the meeting about the number of young children availing of the service. Others may wish to comment, but the commission identified a broad range of issues and I do not think we should isolate the oversight and governance issues. There is a wider range of things that we need to tackle and that is why that national improvement programme, building and pulling all the threads of the reviews together, is important. It is important to get as much cohesion and consistency in the service as possible throughout the country. To be frank, because there are services throughout the country, comprising 73 teams, some variation is inevitable. The challenge for us in the system is to try to make it as consistent as possible for people, while accepting that a range of factors impact the service in urban and rural areas.

Dr. Amanda Burke

I run a service that covers both urban and rural areas. If there are staffing deficits and a service does not have another area from which to draw to cover those deficits, it is a challenge. You cannot make two of yourself. If a core of clinical staff is spread around the place, it is far safer. From a governance point of view, we are going to have to tackle the model of care piece. It is not a popular piece to tackle because the same service cannot be provided in every geographical area. We know that has caused problems in the past because some people can feel they are not getting a good quality service if they do not have a CAMHS team on their doorstep. My view is that if a team cannot be filled and properly staffed over a number of years, the model of care must be examined and changed. We need to consider the evidence base and make evidence-informed decisions. The evidence base for therapy is provided by people who do a lot of the therapy and see conditions a lot rather than people who only see one or two cases per year. We need to assemble a cohort of people in a hub who can in-reach. I am not suggesting that we need young children to travel long distances. We can get our staff to travel or use a hybrid model. We could conduct clinics in different areas. We could also have centres of excellence for particular rarely occurring illnesses. For example, we need a good, solid programme for early intervention in psychosis, which is rare but very serious. We need to get in there early and take a solid and evidence-based approach. The same is true in respect of eating disorders. I favour a programmatic approach, which strengthens governance. However, to do that, we will have to take a hard look at the model we are pursuing at the moment, which is trying to provide everything everywhere.

What would constitute an unsafe environment as a result of staffing levels?

Dr. Amanda Burke

That would arise in a situation where there is a lack of strong clinical oversight and nobody is responsible for the co-ordination of a care plan. We can have a discussion about who should lead a team but at the moment, the responsibility is vested in the consultant psychiatrists who have responsibility for the care and treatment of young people.

While consultants may not have to deliver that themselves, they have responsibility for co-ordinating that. Consequently, a consultant needs to be available to all young people attending CAMHS at this moment in time.

That is not happening.

Dr. Amanda Burke

It is not available everywhere but we are trying to be innovative and that is what I was talking to. Someone can use e-mental health to provide consultations so you could have another health and social care professional with the young person and the consultant at the end of a videolink . Then hybrid could be used so they could meet the young person face to face and develop a relationship with them, and then have review appointments via e-mental health in order that they do not have to travel long distances. We will have to look at that. It is commonplace in other jurisdictions because this is not a problem that is unique to Ireland.

Where the consultant is physically not in-----

Dr. Amanda Burke

Is physically not in, yes. In Australia it is common and they are way ahead of us in this regard. Also in large parts of the United States, it is really hard to source things and this is commonplace.

What would that look like in practice?

Dr. Amanda Burke

In practice there would be a core team on the ground who get to know the young person and conduct the assessment, either with the consultant available by videolink, or who would do the core assessment and then present it to the consultant afterwards.

Regarding the commission's report and alluding back to the original tenet of their report about underfunding and understaffing, there is understaffing, there are governance issues and clinical issues of oversight where it does not happen. What is the HSE's commentary on the commission's assessment that the cause, in its words, was that CAMHS was deeply underfunded and understaffed in respect of some of the situations that arose in its assessment?

Mr. Damien McCallion

On the underfunding, clearly we will need to continue to invest. The numbers I gave at the start are numbers we need to continue to invest in youth mental health services. We have focused on CAMHS but we talked at the start about how wider access to primary care psychology is just as important because if people do not get that access they tend to fall into CAMHS. At the moment one of our challenges is to ensure we get recruitment and retention strengthened in order that we can fill the posts we have. There are certain areas where we have funding and that is not the barrier. Clearly, however, we will need more funding over the years in order to fill out the teams, notwithstanding as Mr. Ryan, Dr. Burke and Dr. Niazi said, the need to look at the model in the context of what we have learned. A Vision for Change was written many years ago. It set out a model based on a population of 100,000 to a team and with the sort of scenarios that have been described, that needs to be thought through. It may be, as was mentioned earlier, that it is not the same everywhere for the reasons we talked about. I think there will be more funding and investment needed in a range of areas to strengthen up CAMHS but we also have a challenge to ensure we can get more people through into the team for posts that were funded for and that are vacant. It is more of a multi-year challenge in my view than an immediate challenge in the sense that we need to try to get that pipeline so we can get more people. All of the other work on the IT system, models of care, the hubs and the more specialist areas that have been developed will need funding as well. Clearly, if some of those get real traction, such as the hubs or the specialist teams Dr. Niazi mentioned, that may bring a funding requirement more quickly.

Mr. Jim Ryan

It may be worth mentioning that over the past five years, approximately €22 million in additional funding has been allocated to CAMHS in particular and we spend around €136 million on CAMHS. That does not include money that is spent on young people's mental health through primary care. Other areas of the HSE, apart from CAMHS, spend money on youth mental health. That is important, as sometimes the figures suggest we are only spending 12% on CAMHS but that it is in addition to what is being spent in primary care, health and well-being, and other parts, that is what is being spent on young people's mental health. Clearly we need to have the right staff in place at the right time and that is what we are trying to get to. However, the point Dr. Burke made was that Vision for Change was of a time.

We need to look at the model, because we will not be able to provide all those staff in all the places we need, in the way A Vision for Change would initially have looked at. It is interesting that Sharing the Vision, which is the updated version of A Vision for Change, did not mention the numbers; it spoke about domains and outcomes. That is what we need to focus on. What is the best we can do for young people who need those services? CAMHS, at the end of the day, is for 2% of the youth population. Those are the numbers on which CAMHS needs to focus, because what sometimes happens is we end up with many more young people seeming to need CAMHS when, in fact, they need a lower level of engagement earlier on to make sure they do not move up through the system.

Dr. Amir Niazi

We definitely need more funding. At the same time, if one provides more funding to us today, we might not be able to spend it, because we also need to have trained staff available to recruit and all of that. A Vision for Change came out in 2006. It recommended one team for 50,000. Things have progressed internationally and even here since then. I will give the Deputy an idea; clinical programmes started in 2010 and 2011. In the past three years, we have developed nine eating disorder specialist teams, out of which five teams are for children. We need another three teams to have a full circle available in the country. We completed a model of care two years ago for mental health intellectual disability, MHID, in children, which was launched last year. We have funding available for 14 posts. We need 18 posts for full programme roll-out, but we have nine people at present. Nine teams have been added to the 73 teams. There are nine MHID teams and five eating disorder teams.

We hope to launch a dual-diagnosis programme this year. There will be four hubs for children. The first hub we hope to start on will be in Dublin, in CHO 9. That will be included. The model of care we are hoping to start now for CAMHS ADHD will include a continuity model with adult ADHD. There are consultants recruited on the hub sites in the perinatal programme, who will look after and provide support for children up to one year of age. Over the years, we will be rapidly developing those teams to provide support to children with early-intervention psychosis. We already have self-harm nurses for children in the three hospitals in Dublin and we will be replicating with the suicide crisis assessment nurses, SCANs, for those children. The model of care for the CAMHS liaison teams is very near completion. A professor is completing it.

We have definitely increased the number of teams in the past few years, from 60 to 73, but, on top of that, these are the specialist teams that have been added on and which were all developed post-A Vision for Change. These are the new developments that have happened since A Vision for Change came out. With all of those teams added on, we have many more resources available for children. All of these teams happen with the extra funding that was provided to support children and we will continue to replicate them, but we also wish to keep a balance. We do not want to develop more specialist teams and lose people from front line and secondary mental health services. We wish to keep the balance; to develop and build on those 73 teams to reach the 101-teams target. At the same time, we wish to continue to invest in the specialised teams and find the right balance between the two.

That is very welcome. My final question is on overprescribing, which is part of the report. It points out that some children are on antipsychotic medicine for years, without clinical oversight. The report states that there was a failure to provide alternative therapies with regard to overprescribing. It is deeply troubling that some children could be on medications such as antipsychotic medicine. I am not saying there is no place for antipsychotic medicine in psychology, but the overprescribing is deeply troubling, to say the least.

Dr. Amir Niazi

I will start, and ask Dr. Burke to continue as she is the expert in CAMHS. We have just completed the prescribing audit. We have around 21,000 children attending CAMHS. Out of those around 8,000 are on medication. As part of this audit we saw 3,500 children. That is almost half of those who are on medication. It was a random, completely anonymised sample, which we picked up. That means it is a fair reflection, being a sample of between 45% and 50%. The findings of the audit state that almost 70% of those children were on one medication. A total of 23% of those children were on two medications, and 4.6% were prescribed three medications. Only 0.5% of children were on more than that. If I were to compare it with any international audit or any other study, it would reflect that there are areas where we are underprescribing, as I have already said. Dr. Burke might be able to speak further on this. I acknowledge there are cases where it has happened, and it is mostly when there have been multiple diagnoses. It might be somebody with challenging behaviour, or autism, or where other factors play a part. Overprescribing might happen in those cases. It might also happen in areas where there is a lack of services at primary care psychology level or a lack of services in other areas. Parents feel that medication is the only thing their children can have so that at least something is being done for them. I acknowledge there are examples. However, the findings of this report reflect that we are in line and on par with international prescribing practice. I will let Dr. Burke speak further on that as she is an expert.

Dr. Amanda Burke

I very much agree with that. Compared with international norms, our national prescribing rates are quite low. In some areas there is an argument to say we should be prescribing more. Notwithstanding that, the Maskey report made some specific recommendations in one particular area of the country. However, what we have seen come through in the national prescribing audit would not reflect the same as that. What can be seen is prescription in isolation. I would vary the terminology from overprescribing to prescription in isolation. I would never prescribe for a child if he or she did not need it. However, if I did not also have a psychological therapy available, it might look as if that is all I was giving. Unfortunately, we have waiting lists for psychological therapies because they are more resource intensive. We now need to focus our energy on making more psychological and talking therapies available. We have spoken about recruitment challenges in that area, but we do not have to recruit everybody. The HSE has looked at initiatives like SilverCloud in terms of how we can provide online evidence-based therapies to young people without having to go through what can be quite a long process in terms of recruitment. We will continue to look at that and buy in packages of care for young people in need of cognitive behavioural therapy or family therapy until we step up our own capacity.

Dr. Niazi made a comment that the currently vacant consultant psychiatrist post in Kerry is not very popular. What is the reason for that? He suggested we may know it was not very popular. I know it has not been filled, but what is his feeling on that?

Dr. Amir Niazi

It is because of whatever was in the media. I will give an example. One of my colleagues was at a dinner in Australia and said she worked in Ireland. The first thing the other person said was that she was thinking of going to Ireland. My colleague said she should come and work with us. However, the other person mentioned she had looked at social media and wanted to know what was going on in Kerry. There was so much in the news about Kerry. People were reluctant to come from abroad and find out if there was a problem in that area.

We are progressing on that one, but what we are now doing, instead of leaving that post alone, is combining south and north Kerry into a hub to provide service from there. We are also making using of telepsychiatry so that children living in that area are not left without a service. Every effort is being made at the moment to provide a service, but at the same time we are trying to recruit a full-time permanent consultant in that post.

I wish to tease something out with Dr. Burke. It was in report that the consultant psychiatrist is the lead, basically. The report advises that it is not international best practice and there are other models of care in relation to multidisciplinary teams. Has there been any consideration given to changing that?

Dr. Amanda Burke

Absolutely.

What would that look like?

Dr. Amanda Burke

Our consultation groups in Sharing the Vision would have flagged this. The full remit of the clinical governance model is a big job and it takes away from clinical time. As it stands at this time, it is vested in the consultant. It would require legislative change to do that. However, there is a model described in terms of a shared governance model, which includes a team co-ordinator, who can be any clinical member of the team. It is an important job that looks at triaging the referrals - we talked about clinical need earlier on - looks at caseloads across the team, basically shares out the workload and co-ordinates the whole team functions. That shared governance piece, with the consultant model, is what Sharing the Vision is proposing now. It is working well in many teams.

Early intervention was mentioned and how children are getting lower levels of engagement and have lower levels of mental health. We have 13,000 people waiting for a primary care psychologist. There is a 14% increase in young people who are looking for access to Pieta counselling. I met with Pieta representatives last week. They told me children as young as five turn up to the services now.

There is also the postcode lottery in relation to treatment. For example, there is a four-week waiting list for a young person living in Wicklow who is looking for a Jigsaw service. A young person living in Cork has a 30-week waitlist. It is difficult for young people to get that care. As was said, they are then more likely to need the acute service of CAMHS. What is being put in place to address that? That should be a priority and it would take pressure of CAMHS as well.

Mr. Jim Ryan

Absolutely. There is dual approach. We invest about €12 million a year in Jigsaw, so it is almost fully funded by the HSE. We are cognisant and meet with it regularly. It does a good job. However, we are very conscious that there is a significant waiting list in a number of the areas. We feel we need to more towards the provision of online counselling services. As the Deputy knows, we have an adult version, which is counselling in primary care, CIPC. We will need to look at a youth version of that.

I have tabled a number of parliamentary questions on that and I do not know if the witnesses answered them, but one of them probably did in the end. The feedback I got off the responses was not very positive in moving that direction.

Mr. Jim Ryan

One of the things we have to be careful of is the model of care. Child and adult care are quite different. That has always held up that particular issue of whether to provide counselling and how to provide all the safeguards that would be required when dealing with someone under the age of 18.

To come back to the point, to try to move the dial from the perspective of young people ending up having to go to secondary care and enhancing our health and well-being and our primary care services, we will have to do both. We have invested significantly in a number of youth organisations, of which Jigsaw is obviously one. There are other programmes we have invested in, for example, Foróige’s big brother big sister programme, which is a useful and cost-effective way of not only integrating young people when they come out of CAMHS but also making sure they have good mentoring and they reconnect with the local community. In all of those situations, we are trying to engage. We have invested significantly in our Text 50808 over recent years. We are looking at technology to get to a wider population. We will not be able to provide all of those services in the traditional manner. We will have to do it differently.

I have one more question if that is okay. Early intervention and psychosis were mentioned a couple times. I dug out a parliamentary question I tabled on the budget for 2023. The standard response I am getting back at the moment is that the HSE is not in a position to respond to this question regarding the allocation of funding for 2023 as a national service plan is not yet finalised.

When will that be finalised so that we can start the ball rolling on this?

Mr. Damien McCallion

That process is still going on. The Department and the HSE are working together to bring it to finality. I anticipate it being finalised soon. It is normally in or around this time or even earlier. It should be imminent. That is why we cannot be definitive on 2023 investments at the moment.

That seems to be a systemic failure on this side of the meeting. Is there any way whoever is allocating budgets could notify the HSE of the anticipated budget any earlier so these plans could be in place early in 2023 or 2024, allowing us to hit the ground running?

Mr. Damien McCallion

As the Deputy will know, the Estimates process starts way back and some things fall out. We do not wait for everything, no more than in the case of the interim report. We move on certain things where there is clear agreement that something will move forward. It does mix. I am hopeful that we will finish out that process in the coming weeks and that we can then be more definitive as to the additional investments for this year. In some areas, including certain parts of mental health provision, we are already clear. We have 50 new posts in CAMHS. We believe they will be funded and we are moving on them now. We are allocating them to different areas. We are not waiting for the formal process to fully conclude. However, we have to be balanced in the decisions we make until we have final full agreement on the service plan.

I thank the Chair for allowing me back in.

I have a couple of questions. I hope that is okay. This morning's session has been really informative. I sincerely thank the witnesses for coming in. I will just raise a couple of things. Some of them have been touched on already but I would like a little more detail on them. They relate to movement within the service and the difficulties in recruiting and retaining staff. That has come up in the committee a lot. It seems to be a very significant problem in light of economic factors, pay that may be inadequate, the cost of living, housing and so on. I have a specific interest in burnout within the services. Is there anything the HSE can do in that regard? Along with economic factors and the housing issues - we talked about Linn Dara - is it one of the causes of movement? Is there a lot of movement happening because of burnout?

Mr. Damien McCallion

I might address that at a high level first and then my colleagues may come in. With regard to what we are seeing across all services, we unquestionably have a particular challenge on the east coast and not only in respect of mental health services. I mentioned earlier that annual turnover has risen from 9,000 to nearly 13,000. Post pandemic, we have seen a lot of people who could not travel during that pandemic, although they previously might have, now travelling overseas. We all know healthcare professionals working in Australia, Canada and so on. We are trying to set up portals and various other means to keep in touch with those people as they may decide to come back. During our lives, many of us have worked away but come back to Ireland. We are trying to do things at that very high level. In fairness to staff, it was a very tough two years in light of the Covid pandemic and how people were denied many other opportunities. That has definitely been a factor. We also know there is a certain amount of pressure on CAMHS waiting lists and that staff in any service want to meet people's needs when they arise. Dr. Burke or Dr. Niazi may wish to talk about the specific issues within CAMHS but, at a HSE level, it is our intention to connect to people so that, if they decide to come back, they will know where the opportunities are. We are keeping connections with them whereas previously people who went away may have just relied on word of mouth. A lot of effort is going into maintaining that connection and keeping people aware of what is available. This is particularly the case for consultants but we intend to extend it to other areas. People can register and see what is coming up in case they hit that point. The factor we worry about is that, having just moved because of the interruption of the Covid pandemic, these people may spend a number of years away, which means that it could be a number of years before they begin to flow back.

However, as I have said, it is not the only factor. There is almost internal competition in that we are investing in primary care and some people are opting for roles in that area so, separately, the team is looking at whether there are additional incentives we can offer to people to come into CAMHS. I refer to sponsorship and other measures that might assist.

Dr. Amir Niazi

I have to accept that, among my colleagues in the CAMHS teams, there has been a sense of burnout, especially in the last 18 months with the Maskey report and now with the commission report. To give the committee an idea of the problem, they are under pressure to look at their waiting lists and to see more and more children, which they are definitely doing. On top of this, the reviews we are carrying out are having a major impact. For example, I refer to the prescribing audit carried out on the 73 teams. Because we do not have a very good IT system, there are teams that are still working with paper and pencil and taking out the charts to look at the information required.

What was noticed was that on average, a team used 25 hours of clinical time for one audit. If we multiply these 25 hours by 73 teams it gives an idea of the number of clinical hours used for one audit. Seven audits have been done in CAMHS. With this work, on top of the clinical work and all of the pressures from the media and everything else, there is definitely a sense of burnout. We hope that with improved governance, with the new assistant national director and new clinical lead, and now after all of these reviews, people will have a sense that they are providing a good service to our patients and the families who require them, and that they will have a sense of satisfaction that we are achieving better mental health. In the past 18 months I have definitely got a sense of burnout from my colleagues.

My concern is that when people are burnt out they might be inclined to overprescribe because they feel powerless in the system and cannot cope any more from a personal point of view.

Dr. Amanda Burke

Isolation is a big issue. This is why I spoke about the model of care earlier. Burnout is even higher in stand-alone teams that are more geographically remote and who do not have colleagues. We are looking at children who have the most intense difficulties. Sometimes there is not a simple answer or diagnosis. People need colleagues who can give them a second opinion. There need to be case conferences. People need to share the burden of responsibility for making these important decisions. This is why people need to work in teams and groups under a directorate. People should not feel embarrassed to seek help or to say they need support.

People also need the flexibility to move. There are certain jobs that are more stressful than others. Inpatient CAMHS jobs can be more stressful because of the milieu of an inpatient unit. Moving people from one area to another can assist with this. It is not all about doctors. Health and social care professionals and nursing staff need good solid career structures so they are not stuck in jobs without being able to get a promotional post that can keep them in the clinical realm. I am very pleased about the move towards advanced nurse practitioners. It is a great support and has made a big difference in my area. These are clinical posts at a very senior level. There are nurse prescribers who can work autonomously. It gives a career path to nurses so they do not feel they have to step off and go into managerial posts. We need to develop similar roles for health and social care professionals so we keep very good clinicians in clinical work and they do not all feel they have to go and become managers, not that there is anything wrong with being a manager, of course.

I want to ask about talking therapies. In the CAMHS system how much talking therapy happens and how much does it work? Do young people have one-to-one conversations with psychotherapists to talk through issues that are going on for them, such as anxiety and stress? I know there are extreme cases but I want to ask about the many young people who are dealing with great anxiety and stress in today's world. They feel they have to be the best at everything. Is talking therapy part of this and will it be used more?

Dr. Amanda Burke

From the very first time we meet a young person there is therapeutic engagement. We work with a multidisciplinary approach. From the first assessment we engage people and look at their care plans, not only with regard to our goals for the young person but their goals for themselves. They may be different. We agree these with them through the care plans. Talking therapy does not have to be from a formal psychologist. It is extremely important to have a psychologist on the team but the psychologist needs to be doing the high-end complex work. Every member of the team should be working to the fullness of their scope of practice. Nurses often have psychotherapeutic qualifications as usually do social workers. Many of our doctors have formal training in therapies.

The skill set within the team needs to be considered in order that, when a new member is being recruited, we know that the team needs family therapy skills or cognitive behavioural therapy skills because no current member has those. This moves away from the one-size-fits-all approach to instead considering the current team and where its skills deficits lie. This is what makes the difference. Today's discussion is about large numbers in terms of needing X hundred therapists, for example, but if I gave an individual team just one extra therapist, it could increase the team's capacity by 20%. That would allow many young people to be seen in talking therapies. Every time we add an additional WTE we make a difference.

Does Dr. Niazi wish to add something?

Dr. Amir Niazi

According to the prescribing audit, of the 21,000 children, only 8,000 are on medication. My understanding is that most of the other 13,000 are attending for psychological or psychosocial interventions and do not need medications. That is how important having therapists available is.

A matter of concern in the context of the report is the identification of risk management failures. The report noted a communications defect between some mental health operation teams and CHO management. What can be done to improve organisational communication channels and tighten up risk management?

Mr. Jim Ryan

I will explain a little about what happens on the ground. We have a head of mental health in each of our nine CHOs. In normal circumstances, when an issue arises, it will be raised with that person. The head's reporting line is to the chief officer in each of the nine areas. There is a performance meeting each month. From there, if there are operational issues outside the norm, they will be raised with the national director and my office. There are times when the paperwork may not appear to support what happens. This is an issue that we have addressed in recent months - we are continuing to address it - to ensure that, if a risk issue is identified at a CHO level and it needs to be raised nationally, then it is done so through a system. We have improved the system in recent months.

It is also important to realise that, where an issue arises, it is escalated as appropriate. Ultimately, the solution may be at CHO level, but if there are issues that we at national level need to be involved in, that is done on a monthly basis. Issues arise each day and are managed locally, but it is rare for a situation in a CHO not to be escalated as appropriate. This is also the case where systemic issues have been identified at CHO level from which other CHOs can learn. These issues are raised in a systematic way.

Mr. Damien McCallion

That message has been reinforced with the chief officers - they are effectively the CEOs of the areas - to ensure that no one should be in a position where he or she is, as the report alluded to, afraid to raise the existence of a risk. The majority of risks should be managed locally. The national system has a limited capacity to address them. Our role is to try to provide the framework or, where possible, the resources to them to manage risks. A risk management policy applies across all services, not just CAMHS. There are various training initiatives and so on. It may be that some of those need to be strengthened within particular CHOs. That will be done if necessary. The CHOs will take responsibility for directing it forward.

Some of the most upsetting stories in the report involve young people and their families having to attend accident and emergency departments during times of crisis in order to get out-of-hours help. According to the report, this is an issue. Has the HSE a timeline for the full implementation of its 2019 service plan, which contained a commitment to provide a seven-day-per-week CAMHS? Where are we in that regard?

Mr. Jim Ryan

We have 73 teams and a number of specialist teams. We acknowledge that there is a gap at weekends and at night. We are trying to ensure that the resources available to us, which we are planning to increase, are available at a time when they will meet the most need.

Our worry at times is that when we try to spread our resources too thinly, we end up not being able to deliver. The report raises the issue of young people having to go to emergency departments, which can be very stressful and difficult for them. We are very aware of that. Some of the things we have done around self-harm nurses for adults, in particular, and liaison services, of which we have some but need to develop more, will assist in that. It is all about trying to grow the service. This is a human-intense service. That is what it requires, as well as some structural elements, buildings, etc. On the element of trying to provide a 24-7 service, certainly a seven-day service, we have done most of it in the adult services. We want to move it on in CAMHS. At the moment, with the resources we have, we are trying to make sure they are best placed where we meet most of the need.

Does Mr. Ryan have any idea how much that would cost? Is that what is stopping the HSE from moving forward on that?

Mr. Jim Ryan

We will never say no to additional funding. However, as we said earlier, we need to make sure we are not almost cannibalising our own services. The people who work in CAMHS have to come from somewhere. We have to grow more to be able to do more. There is an emphasis on making sure that we are making the best of what we have, rather than saying that we will put in more. One concern over the last few years is that when we have put in new additional services, it has denuded some of our core services because they are promotional posts, new posts and specialist posts, which means they are coming from our existing posts or services. We need to be careful about doing that. We need to grow the base before we grow the other elements of the service or do both in tandem.

I think Dr. Burke mentioned early intervention services. What is there at the moment? What are the early intervention services? Is there an early intervention or preventative service before it gets too bad? Is that what Jigsaw does? Will she say a little about that?

Dr. Amanda Burke

I was specifically referring to early intervention in psychosis, which is when somebody first presents in the very early stages of a psychotic illness. It is really important to get in there with specific interventions to stop the progression. In general early intervention, absolutely, we are talking about first-tier services like Jigsaw and Mindspace where you can go for talking therapies before you reach the threshold for CAMHS, which is moderate to severe mental illness. Unfortunately, if we see an absence of those and somebody is waiting a long time, it can progress. It is crucial that we build and enhance on these services.

Dr. Amir Niazi

It is one of our clinical programmes which allows us to develop teams in adults as well as in children. We have already developed five teams in adults; we need to develop more to reach almost 20. In the model of care, it states about 12 teams in children. We have started the first team in Dublin. In the coming years, this is an area we will be investing in, definitely. It is not medical; it includes the whole holistic approach. The evidence base states that if you step in early, you can avoid somebody becoming chronic later. There is an economic model also attached to it. That is something we will be investing in over the coming years.

That is fantastic. That would be really powerful and brilliant if it was really looked at. I believe in intervention and prevention, always. That is where the money should be invested, always. Will the witnesses explain what it would look like if they had a perfect scenario? What would a perfect CAMHS system look like? What would the end result look like?

Dr. Amanda Burke

Get your chequebook out. I have done focus groups with young people, so I will say what it would look like from their point of view. They want access, when they want it, to a young person-friendly space. They want to come in to a space where they feel comfortable, somewhere bright with beanbags where they can talk quietly, present whenever they want and where there is not a long waiting list.

They do not have to have a long waiting list. They can talk to somebody who, although they may not necessarily solve their problems, would listen to them and then get them the appropriate therapeutic relationships when they need it. That is what the young people want. From my point of view, it is about developing services. There is a place for accident and emergency departments and it is important to say that. Somebody who has self harmed or taken an overdose needs to be seen medically. I would love to see a place where young people could present that was separate from an accident and emergency department, something similar to the café models that we were looking at. There would be an element of peer support so that young people could talk to people with lived experience, who could show them what it looks like in six months time when they get the help they need. Then there would be a backup house where young people could be seen by a mental health professional, who would triage the person and tell them what they needed be it a community mental health team, attendance at the day hospital or a period of in patient admission. It would be seamless and people would not be waiting. We would be connecting with all the other primary care agencies, the schools and the GPs. We need to be doing that rather than being in a silo and the young person would be at the centre of it. That is what it would look like to me.

Mr. Damien McCallion

When it is described by young people themselves it is most powerful. I think that is the way to look at it. Ultimately that has got to be our aim in terms of national improvement programmes and so on. Those can be technical terms. The aim is what Dr. Burke has set out. It will take time, but that is where we need to get to and we need to keep that foremost in our minds. It is a whole system piece, a huge part of the health service but there are other parts of it as well.

I thank the witnesses for their assistance to the committee on this really important matter. We look forward to future considerations and hearing more from the witnesses. As a committee we would like to support in any way we can.

The joint sub-committee adjourned at 12.57 p.m. sine die.
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