WATER POWER, NAVIGATION AND DRAINAGE.

Colonel MOORE

I beg to move:—

"That in view of the importance of developing the Water Power of Saorstát Eireann the Seanad requests the Government to establish a Board of Control to provide for the development of Water Power and the improvement of Navigation."

"The first duty of this Board would be to establish a Hydrometric Survey charged with the following duties:—

i. (a) A detailed field examination of the rivers of Saorstát Eireann, in order to locate possible power sites.

(b) A survey of these sites in sufficient detail to give all data necessary for estimates of the cost of development.

ii. (a) Establishment and maintenance of permanent discharge gauging stations on all important rivers.

(b) A detailed study, by means of discharge gauging stations, and sufficient and properly located rain-gauge stations, of the relation between rainfall and runoff on selected catchment areas of different types.

(d) Annual publication of all gaugings and occasional publication of special investigations.

iii. The study of flooding and drainage problems.

The Board should also be authorised and empowered:—

(1) "To make investigations, and collect and record data concerning the utilization of water resources of any region to be developed."

(2) "To co-operate with the executive departments and other agencies of State in such investigations; and for such purposes the several departments and agencies of the National Government should be authorised and directed, upon the request of the Board, to furnish such records, papers, and information in their possession as may be necessary in such investigations."

I think it is fortunate that the motion I have to bring forward to-day comes after the one we have just considered, because this tends to remove the difficulty which we have been discussing. The late President Griffith, who spent all his life in the service of this country, had two objects in view and they were always before him. One was the political freedom of Ireland and the other was the economic freedom of Ireland. His political views were always very much coloured by his economic views, as he always believed that there could be no development of Irish industries while the country was dominated by the commercial interests of England. The object of my motion is the development of industries, an object he always had in view. One of the first things he did when he came into power was to establish a commission to inquire into the industries and resources of Ireland in order that he might have something to go on as soon as a Parliament was set up in this country, as he always expected, and so that there might be methods ready to be considered by that Parliament when it assembled and to avoid delay in helping forward the industrial development of Ireland. He wished to help industries which existed, and also to establish others. The object of my motion is to help in the development of these industries. The commission was an unpaid commission and sat for two and a half years, and worked very hard in all parts of Ireland. It issued reports on a number of different subjects—coal and other things. One of the principal things which it reported upon was water power, the subject we are now considering. A good many of the Senators, or some, at all events, and some members of the Dáil were members of that commission and worked very hard at it so that, I am sure, they will welcome an effort to carry that work into effect.

Senators will see that this motion of mine was not a freak action but one that has been very carefully considered for a long time. It was approved by a great many people. I have asked advice from a great number of competent people, including Sir John Griffith and others, and they are all agreed that this is a good thing to do. Nearly all countries have established a hydrometric survey, at least all civilised countries, including America, Switzerland, France and others. They did not do so in England, as they have there a very large supply of coal readily available and also cheap. They did not think it worth while to trouble much about water power in England, and very much less in this country. This Commission, which went into this question, reported that it would be very unwise to venture on any great water power development until the matter had been very thoroughly discussed, examined and investigated, as a great deal of money might be wasted and thrown away in wrong attempts to establish water power where it was unsuitable. If water power were a continuous force, always ready to act, of course it would be rather a simple matter and would probably wipe out nearly all other powers, but it is not so at all. There are a great many difficulties in the way of water power, and the object of this motion is to find what these difficulties are and how they can best be overcome. Until every rain-catchment area of Ireland, every river, has been carefully studied, the amount of rainfall examined and the outflow of water gauged, it cannot economically be used for the development of power. People who have mills require a great deal of knowledge on this matter. They require to know, not only the maximum of power which they could obtain from any engineer who has spent a few hours examining the place, but they want to know the minimum. We all know that rain varies very much from one month to another, from one year to another, from one period of time to another, and all these falls of rain affect very much the amount of power. A river at one time might have 10,000 horse power available; at another it might not have 1,000, and before the manufacturer spends money in putting up plant he needs to know exactly the minimum that he can depend on, because, in any case, he will have to put up stand-by plant to carry out the work when there is a small flow of water.

Observations have been taken all over Ireland at different times, sometimes by engineers employed for the purpose, sometimes because people were interested in the matter, and went out and made reports about it; sometimes private persons put up measures for finding the rainfall, and in various ways like that a good deal of information is at hand stowed in different reports, but by no means full reports. It would require a great many more gauges on various rivers and rainfall gauges before we know exactly how we stand, and we require reports over long periods of time. Another very important matter to consider is the co-ordination of power. Sometimes there are rivers which have a good many affluents with small power. Perhaps none of these affluents is sufficient for any big purpose, but by hydrometric means these could be brought together and used. If certain independent private companies obtained possession of these water-powers it might be very difficult to buy them out. They might not be able to use them very much themselves, but they might hold them and get very big prices. Although the State might have nominal control over them they might not be able to get actual power over them, except at very great cost. What is necessary is that Irish industrialists who want to establish industries should know exactly what power is available in different parts of the country. They must have reasonable surety that their money will not be wasted. Hitherto they had to depend on the reports of persons who have been sent out for the purpose by private individuals or by companies who wanted to exploit these districts, and these people who reported to them, or the people who were trying to get things established, were very often not anxious to know what the real thing was. They wanted to get big statements so that companies might be formed, and they did not care very much whether these companies failed or not. That has been one of the great difficulties in this country. People have not known exactly where they were and were not willing to spend money on these things. People have talked of the enormous water-power in Ireland. Because they see the Shannon and other rivers flowing down the centre of the country, false statements have been made about the power available. The object of this Motion is to find out exactly where we stand. The United States have quite lately established a hydrometric survey, and I will read you an extract from the first report made. It is from the first annual report of the Federal Power Commission for the fiscal year ended the 30th June, 1921:—

"The approval of the Federal Water Power Act on June 10, 1920, marked the end of the period of discussion and controversy, which, for more than a decade, had waged both in Congress and outside, over a National policy with respect to water power under Federal control. The laws previously governing the administration and disposition of water powers had been passed, the one in 1901 and the other in 1910, at a time when there was little appreciation of the role electric power would play in transportation and industry, or of the safeguards which, in the disposition of this National resource, would be required in the interests of the investor as well as of the public. For many years Federal laws had been wholly unsuited to prevailing conditions. The rights granted were so insecure, and the liabilities imposed so uncertain, that only in occasional instances could water power development, which required Federal authority, be financed; with the result that the development of the inexhaustible water power resources was largely blocked, and recourse was had to steam power, with its consequent use of coal. The flood of applications which have followed the passing of the Act of 1920, and the projects on which, notwithstanding the industrial depression and the uncertain financial situation, construction has already started, under licence issued by the Federal Power Commission, is abundant evidence both to the extent to which former legislation stood in the way of power development, and of the generally satisfactory character of the present legislation."

The same object is in view here, that people might know what power they have available before they make these applications. Of course there are a great many difficulties in face of establishing water power. If it were quite a simple thing it would have been easily done long ago. One of these difficulties is storage in lakes and reservoirs, and there again the establishment of these lakes and reservoirs causes a great many other difficulties, to agriculture by flooding, to navigation and to fishing, and it requires some central authority to decide which is the most important, nationally, of these subjects. Sometimes fisheries may be more important than power, and sometimes navigation may be. Sometimes the difficulties caused by flooding would prevent the setting up of power stations, because they would do more harm than good. There must be some central administration to decide which is the less, and the less should give way to the greater.

Another point I wish to refer to is the cost. The cost of setting up a hydrometric survey is an important matter, and it depends very much on whether we are going to rush into this business and set up a full-grown Board straight away, or whether we are to begin by degrees with a few engineers and develop gradually as we proceed.

Personally, I think it is much better to begin in a small way. I have a statement here with regard to the numbers of persons and the expense involved. It is made up by Prof. Walsh, of Cork, who had almost the entire drawing-up of the Water Power report which was sent out

He says:—

"The work of the Hydrometric Dept. might develop gradually, requiring a small staff at first, and a larger staff later; or it might start on a large scale with a big staff. For many reasons I think the first alternative the better.

Initially, the staff would consist of a senior and junior engineer at salaries of, say, £800 and £400, respectively, and a clerk. Equipment would consist of a small office, a Ford car, a few surveying instruments, costing about £150 at most, maps, and sundry office fittings. Put the total cost of equipment required, initially, at £500. For the first six months the expenses would be something of this order:—

Salaries (Six months)	say £700
Cost of initial equipment	say £500
Expenses—office rent, travel- ling and maintenance ex- penses, hire of casual labour, etc	£500
Total for first six months	£1,700

During this time the two engineers would examine, together, the most important rivers, in order to locate power sites needing early investigation, and to locate sites for guaging stations. This work could be based on the Water Power Report of the Commission of Enquiry, but would entail travelling over the greater part of the country.

As soon as a number of the most important sites for guaging stations would have been fixed, two more junior engineers would be required to help in the work of installing guages, locating further sites, surveying, etc. Towards the end of the second year the staff would probably consist of:—

	per ann.
One chief engineer at	£800 to £1,000
One senior assistant en- gineer at	£400 to £600
Two assistant engi- neers at	£300 to £400
One Draughtsman at	£300
One Typist at	£200
Total for salaries, say	£2,900

General expenses, including office expenses, travelling, hire of casual labour, payment of a limited number of observers, purchase of guages and instruments, printing, etc., would account for	£3,000 to £4,000 per ann.
say, to be on the safe side	£4,000 per ann.
This would make a total of	£7,000 per ann.

Even after some years working the expenses of such a Department need not exceed, at the very outside, £10,000 per ann., but I really think that all that would be needed could be done, and well done for the £7,000 per annum.

Expensive recording guages would be required only on the most important rivers, say 25 to 30 altogether; very simple cheap guages would suffice in most cases.

It must be remembered that observers would not be required to give more than a few minutes daily to the guages, and would be necessarily local workers paid a small amount for this service.

As far as rainfall is concerned, dependance must be placed almost, entirely, upon voluntary observers, who might, in some cases, be supplied with guages at the expense of the Hydrometric Dept.

I think it is inadvisable that the Hydrometric Department should be made a Department of the Geological or any other Department in Ireland. It is essentially an engineer's affair, and engineers ought to be employed if the work is to be properly done, and they ought to be independent to carry out the work as best they can. That, I think, gives a sort of estimate to the Senators to work on. I cannot say that it can be all carried out in this way, but it gives a sort of idea as to the cost. At present, I am told a great many people are going about the country, speculators and others, drawing up plans and trying to get up companies for the sake of starting these things, and perhaps selling them afterwards to other companies with profit to themselves, and with no particular trouble to themselves, and there is no proper Department of the Government to meet this, and to prevent the country being exploited. Therefore, I move that the proposal I put here shall be passed by the Seanad.

Mr. T.W. BENNETT

I beg to second the motion put forward by Senator Colonel Moore. I feel very strongly that the water power which is so largely available in Ireland will inevitably develop into the motive power of this country, and for that purpose I think that the setting up of a Board of Control is desirable. Senator Colonel Moore went into the question of cost, and I am satisfied and glad to know that the cost will be very little as an initial experiment, but I am more concerned with the fact that the great water power of the State should be conserved for the State, and that it should not, by any means, get into the hands of private exploiters. There is that danger put forward by Senator Colonel Moore, and if you do not get such a Board of Control up and down the country you will get people selecting favourable places where power may be developed, and trying to grab these places and take them away from the people, to whom they belong. Having heard the statement as to the probable cost, I think we could hardly hesitate to advise that this step should be taken. I am one who feels that an industry will not be started unless there is a reasonable prospect of power for working it. I may be told there is plenty of water everywhere, and plenty of information everywhere, and that the Government Departments are pigeonholed with all the necessary information, but that wants to be collated, and wants to be made known, and the whole material resources of the country require to be conserved for the State.

Collaterally I think the Hydrometric Survey would be advantageous to the land. To my knowledge certain parts of the richest areas are water-logged. Hitherto the cost of schemes of drainage have militated against the admirable advice given by engineers to drain these lands. I think if the whole of the water power of the country was conserved and streams diverged to their proper channels, that great good would react on some of the better class lands in the South of Ireland. I do not think there will be any objection on the part of the Senate to approving of the motion of Senator Moore.

Mr. BARRINGTON

I regret that although I am entirely in sympathy with the objects of the proposer and seconder of this Resolution, that I am entirely against the methods they propose to adopt. I am one who has spent more years than I like to reckon up in the practical promotion and carrying out of works of this sort, and I have invariably found that when you are running up against a bureaucratic body, instead of being likely to be helpful it is much more apt to be a hindrance. We have a very eminent Irishman who is a member of the Seanad, and no doubt you will all recollect a debate and somewhat acrimonious correspondence a few years ago on the question of the number of public Boards that existed in Ireland. I think he calculated them at something like 33, and he proceeded to point out that the bulk of these Boards, or a great many of them, were mainly occupied in justifying their own existence.

Very often the views of one run up against the views of another. I fear that if we establish this Board of Control which is suggested here that we will be only creating another bureaucratic body that will be a kind of Frankenstein that we would find it very difficult to get rid of later on. With regard to the information that Senator Moore is so anxious to get, I would like to point out that a Board of Commissioners were appointed here in the early part of the last century to investigate water power. They did investigate, with very great care, the water power of almost every river of importance. Their reports are in existence. They are, no doubt, hidden away in the archives of some Government Department. They are most carefully made up. The plans are all lithographed. The reports are all printed, but I am afraid that they have been consigned to the scrap heap with a number of reports of Royal Commissions and others that have been appointed in the past. I am very much afraid if a new Board of Control is set up, that instead of forwarding what we have at heart that the effect would be the reverse. I am very anxious that I should not be for one moment taken as suggesting that all the investigations which are at present carried on by the Meteorological Department should be dropped, but I believe that very much cheaper and better arrangements could be effected by utilising those reports. I get a weekly, and a more elaborate monthly report from the Meteorological Department. They go very fully into the question of the rainfall and other phenomena that they have to deal with. I think that with the help of the information, which the Department is in a position to furnish, that nobody will be very much astray in calculations as to what water power can be expected in any given district. I think by establishing a Board of this sort we will be only creating an incubus and spending a lot of money which would be much more advantageously spent otherwise.

Sir JOHN GRIFFITH

I may say myself that I approach this subject with very great sympathy for Senator Moore. I should have liked that he would have confined himself to the formation of this control and not go into the question of the work they had to do. The work that has been put down is, of course, the elementary work of any department of the kind. I am in total sympathy with Senator Moore's motion, for I have been through this mill for the last thirty years and found the difficulty of securing water its proper use. Of the many Commissions that have sat in this country for the last forty years, there was one refrain at the end of every one of them: "Unity of control is wanted." Drainage Commissioners one after the other pleaded for unity of control; the Navigation Commission, under Lord Shuttleworth, pleaded for unity of control. Viceregal Commissions and Committees that have sat on different portions of the work have all pointed out the want of unity of control. I was glad to hear Senator Moore quote from the reports of this Water Power Commission which has been established in the United States within the last three years. This is a new body. It is the result of the experience of the last twenty years. Congress finally passed an Act appointing this Commission. It is not a new Board, but it is a co-ordinating Board. It is a controlling Board consisting of the three heads of Government Departments—the Secretary of War, the Secretary for the Interior, and the Secretary for Agriculture. There is no new Board, but there is a concentration of powers under one control which is what we have all pleaded for, for the last half century. If we start on these lines I think we shall do well, and will learn from the experience of what has happened abroad. Do not let us repeat the mistakes of Switzerland, Germany or France, but let us start afresh with the full knowledge of what they have done, and let us know the things they have failed in. If we do that I think Ireland's start in this matter of water power will not be matched in the world's history. There is very little need for me to labour this point. I was Chairman of the Board of Trade Sub-Committee in connection with the water resources of Ireland, and we terminated our reports by pleading for the establishment of authority to allocate water amongst those different interests. That is where the sore point is, to try and make peace between the drainage, navigation, fisheries and water power interests. Power has come in now at the end, and it is perhaps the most important of all. After listening to the debate this afternoon I am filled with hope that with the introduction of water power resources in Ireland we will do a great deal to cheapen power and to supply cheap power to the industries of the country. If we do that the question of wages sinks into insignificance. I would cordially support the first clause in Senator Moore's motion, to the effect that the Government be asked to take into consideration the formation of a controlling commission, or whatever you call it. I avoid Mr. Barrington's word "Board," because I thoroughly sympathise with him about Boards being the curse in Ireland.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I would draw the Senator's attention to the fact that the motion he is supporting is a motion to establish a Board of Control. I understand that he is not in favour of it. Perhaps I might suggest to Senator Moore that he would put it in this way, that he would request the Government to centralise authority for the development of water power and the improvement of navigation.

Colonel MOORE

I think there is a slight mistake. I understood that Sir John Griffith did support it.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

No, he said distinctly he agreed with Senator Barrington in his condemnation of the setting up of further Boards, but that he would like to see authority centralised for this purpose. That is what I understood.

Sir JOHN GRIFFITH

I wish to distinguish between Boards and the Commission adopted by the United States.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

So I understand.

Sir JOHN GRIFFITH

The Commission is a unity of existing powers and not a separate Board.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

What I suggest then would probably meet Sir John Griffith's views, that is, to request the Government to centralise authority for the development of water power and the improvement of navigation.

Mr. BARRINGTON

May I point out that no authority exists.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I do not mean authority. I mean the right to control, I do not mean a body at all.

Sir THOMAS GRATTAN ESMONDE

I think we will all agree with Senator Colonel Moore's purpose, which is to obtain information as to the precise nature and quality of the water power of Ireland, with a view to its development; but I find myself in complete agreement with Senator Barrington. We have a great deal too many Boards in this country, and one of the best things we could do would be to abolish nine-tenths of them. My friend Senator Col. Moore need not expect me to support him if he proposes to add a thirty-fifth or a thirty-sixth to the various Boards we have. An interesting and important question has been raised by Senator Moore, and naturally the Seanad is quite entitled and very well advised to express its opinion.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Perhaps the simplest way to deal with the motion is to leave out the words "to establish a Board of Control." The motion would then read: "That the Seanad requests the Government to provide for the development of water power, and the improvement of navigation."

Sir THOMAS GRATTAN ESMONDE

That would be quite all right. It might be advisable to further suggest to the Government that they should take steps to investigate this important matter. I understand the present situation in regard to administration is that some Bill has been drafted and passed, more or less in skeleton form, enabling the Government to set up a Department for Technology and Geological research, and various matters of that kind. I understand there is some idea of co-ordinating the various scientific and technical organisations, and instead of having five or six Boards as at present, having all the work done by one. It would be a good idea to suggest to the Government that whenever they remodel the system of administration, we should have these Hydrometric Surveys, and all the matters relating thereto, combined with the geological survey and various other services, so as to have the control centralised. That would be the proper way of treating this question.

We are all most anxious that the water power of Ireland should be properly utilised. I am not quite sure that when we come to investigate practically, and in accordance with present ideas, the water power of Ireland, we will find it to be as great as we imagine it to be. Time and again we have had inquiries into this matter. All sorts of reports have been produced. Senator Sir J. Griffith has reminded us of his experience in this regard. Of our own knowledge, in studying the contents of our National archives, we know that there are reports almost innumerable, and any amount of Blue Books. It would be useful if some librarian would compile into a ready summary all the records we have on this question. If they were condensed, and if the public would take sufficient interest in them to read the condensed material, they would be amazed at the amount of information that we already possess. We have all this information at our command, but apparently have forgotten about it. What we have never done is to put the suggestions contained in those reports into practice.

Senator Colonel Moore has quoted American publications on the subject of water power. I have seen some of the American power stations. Of course, we all know about Niagara, possibly the greatest electrical generating power in creation. We know of the Shoshone Valley dam. We know of the huge dam at Jackson Lake, which irrigates thousands of acres of land, and we also know of the Mississippi, which is believed to be the longest of all the dams in the world. The Americans have amazing sources of water supply, and we cannot compare ourselves with them. At the same time Senator Moore is perfectly right. We ought to have a scientific, and, as far as possible, a cheap investigation into our water power resources. We cannot compare with America, but we can do a great deal in investigating our own resources. Senator Moore would be well advised not to press for the appointment of a new Board, but to urge on the Government the importance and necessity of taking some steps to have a proper Hydrometric Survey of Ireland carried out as soon as possible.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Senator Moore has handed in an amendment to his motion, which would have the effect of removing from the Order Paper a great deal of what at present appears upon it. His motion would then take this shape: "That in view of the importance of developing the water power resources of Ireland, the Seanad requests the Government to establish unity of control for the purposes of the development of water-power, and the improvement of navigation, and also to establish a Hydrometric Survey of Ireland."

Mr. BARRINGTON

Would Senator Moore agree to leave out the last sentence?

Colonel MOORE

I have consulted with Senator Sir John Griffith and he agrees to leave it in. It was in consultation with him that I put it in, and as I believe several Senators desire it, I would prefer to leave it in.

Mr. JAMESON

As regards the suggestion to establish a hydrometic survey, if the Government agree to our recommendation that must necessarily follow. It could not be carried out if there was not such a survey as that. Therefore it does not seem necessary to put those words in. There will be a good many other things necessary besides that; to pick out one thing like that for mention would seem rather to weaken the case. If we pass the resolution, recommending unity of control, and if the Government agree to it, the first thing they will have to do is to establish this very survey which Senator Moore wants us to recommend. It would be much better to request the Government to take up the matter of the unity of control for these purposes.

Mr. JACKSON

I wish to support the resolution. I am in sympathy with it generally. It is important in many respects. We have no coal mines in the Free State so far developed as to be of much use in commerce. I trust that with the new Government these coal mines are at the beginning of their prosperity. There are many cases where there is water power of considerable value that could be worked much more economically than by the use of coal. The difficulty up to this has been the collection of different Boards operating from Dublin, Boards such as those controlling the Shannon Navigation, the C.D. Board, which has ample powers over water supply, the Drainage Boards functioning here and there. I have some experience in those matters, because I was interested in a very important water power scheme that succeeded in developing something like a three thousand horse power. I found I was up against several interests. The farmers were afraid their lands would be flooded. Others were afraid their lands would be dried up. The difficulties were immense. If we had unity of control of all those Boards which have been functioning up to this it would be a great matter for people who might be anxious to invest in industries as the Government would be able to give them information. They ought to take compulsory powers if it is necessary in the interests of industry where no industries are going on at present. I think if water power were properly developed it would lead to the establishment of very large industries.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

As far as I can judge the feeling of the Seanad. Senator Moore, I think you would probably get your resolution unanimously passed if you deleted the last words, and I do not think they really add any weight to the resolution.

Colonel MOORE

Senator Jameson has made the suggestion that the part about the hydrometric survey should be left out. In the resolution as put down we asked merely for the unification of the control of these various Boards. There is no Board for hydrometric survey.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

We have departed altogether from the form of the motion as it appears on the Order Paper, and it is now confined to a mere request to the Government to establish unity of control for the purpose of developing the water power and navigation, but you have added to that "also to establish a hydrometric survey of Ireland," and you have left out all the other recommendations.

Colonel MOORE

Because there is control for the other things, but there is no hydrometric survey, and it is a very important part of my motion that there should be a survey. It is an addition to the establishment of general control over the other things, so that people would know exactly the water power they have to depend on in different places. If a man wishes to set up an industry he would then be able to go to a particular place and be able to say that in such and such a place he had got a certain water power to fall back upon. There are two demands of importance; one is the unity of control, and the other is the hydrometric survey. Without that hydrometric survey the industrialist who wants to set up an industry will not know what power is available, and he will have to get engineers and other people to find out for him and have to pay a lot of money. Moreover, there will be all sorts of competition, and things will be put forward. Therefore, I think it is nearly as important, if not quite as important, as unity of control, that people should know exactly what water power they have.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

The simple question I put to you was whether you would be willing to withdraw that portion of your motion. I have allowed you to explain your reasons for not doing that, but I cannot allow you to go into the subject matter again.

Colonel MOORE

If anybody wishes to move an amendment to that effect we can vote on it.

Sir HUTCHESON POE

Might I suggest that if the Government establish unity of control over these different bodies that are interested in the development of water power, the first step that the Government will be obliged to take will be to institute a hydrometric survey of their own. They could not possibly go on these different hydrometric surveys that have been made. They would be obliged in their own interest to institute a new survey. Therefore, I think it is unnecessary to put this in the resolution, and I think we should be content with demanding unity of control realising that the first step the Government will have to take will be to institute a new survey of their own.

Mr. BARRINGTON

Might I suggest that you add drainage to the resolution?

Colonel MOORE

I quite agree with that.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Are you moving an amendment, Senator Barrington, to omit the last portion with reference to establishing hydrometric survey?

Mr. BARRINGTON

If it would be in order, I would like to do so.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Do you second that, Senator Jameson?

Mr. JAMESON

I do not think it is of sufficient importance. One thing must follow the other. I think we are only splitting hairs and that we should let Senator Moore have his way.

Mr. P.W. KENNY

Are we clear that one thing does follow the other? It has been stated here that there are various boards of control, and Senator Jackson has told us of the opposition he met with from one direction or another. The resolution in its amended form would simply co-ordinate these various Boards as far as this particular matter is concerned, and the Government might rest at that and not go any further. They might establish unity of control over these various factors. Senator Moore's idea is to keep them moving. When you come to a hydrometric survey, that is not a work that can be achieved or completed or accomplished in a week or a month or a year. For the purpose of being of any value to the industrialist who wants to invest his money in water power, there must be some guarantee as to continuity of supply and uniformity. He will want to know the maximum and minimum within the 12 months, not only in one year, which might be dry or wet, as the case may be, but over a series of years. That is the work that the hydrometric surveyor is asked to do, and it will be an absolutely initial work. If you are going to develop the water power of Ireland and start at once, that is the initial step, because it will take some time to complete it. Other things may be done within a year, but your hydrometric survey and your data and figures and conclusions from it must be spread over a series of years.

Your meteorological records of half a century ago, of the rainfall, etc., in that period, are practically no use to-day. It is within our knowledge that the whole climate of the country has changed. Years ago, when we were boys and girls, we knew to a week when the snow would come, and how long it would last, and when we could skate on the ice. You cannot make calculations of that sort to-day. The climate and the whole atmospheric conditions have changed. For practical purposes many of the reports from the various boards on these matters are useless to-day. I want that point cleared up. I take it, the inner meaning of Senator Colonel Moore's insistence on the last paragraph is, that he considers it the only factor that will keep the Government moving. In order that this movement should be of immediate benefit to the country, it should be put in hand, as it will take a number of years before any conclusions can be drawn from such data. The latter paragraph does not compel the Government to establish at once this survey, but in their own good time to set the matter going.

Mr. BENNETT

It seems to me there is already a staff connected with the Government Departments who could undertake a hydrometric survey. I cannot see that there is any harm to leave that in the motion, and point out to the Government that this is one of the essential things.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I certainly do not think it is worth dividing the Seanad on it, but there is an important matter I will call the attention of Senator Colonel Moore to. As it stands now, the motion begins by calling attention to the importance of developing the water power, but says nothing about navigation or drainage. Therefore, I think it would be wiser that you would embrace all three. It would then read: "That in view of the importance of the subject matter, the Seanad request the Government to establish unity of control for the development of water power, the improvement of navigation and drainage, and also to establish a Hydrometric Survey of Saorstát Eireann."

Col. MOORE

I accept that form.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Does Senator Barrington wish to have his amendment put?

Senator BARRINGTON

I should like to leave out the paragraph dealing with the Survey, as I think it is only putting obstacles in the way. Anyone who is going to invest money in industries is not going to take the word of a Government Department as to there being such a power, and must satisfy himself.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Do I understand you withdraw your amendment?

Mr. BARRINGTON

Yes.

Motion in amended form put and agreed to.

Seanad Éireann díospóireacht - Wednesday, 30 May 1923