Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 4 Jul 1923

Vol. 1 No. 30

CENSORSHIP OF FILMS BILL, 1923. - LAND LAW (COMMISSION) BILL, 1923.—SECOND STAGE.

Motion made and question proposed: "That the Land Law (Commission) Bill, 1923, be read a Second Time."

MINISTER for HOME AFFAIRS (Mr. K. O'Higgins)

The Minister for Agriculture is unfortunately detained in the Dáil on the Land Bill and I have been asked, on short notice, to represent him here on this Bill, which provides for the dissolution of the Congested Districts Board and its absorption in the Commission. Section 1 of the Bill will be found to be merely a definition of technical terms contained in the course of the Bill. Section (2) confirms the powers of the Land Commission as at present existing. Section (3) provides for the appointment of a Judicial Commissioner:—

Until the establishment of Courts pursuant to Article 64 of the Constitution of Saorstát Eireann, Sub-section (5) of Section 28 of the Purchase of Land (Ireland) Act, 1891, shall apply to the office of Judicial Commissioner under this Act, and from and after the establishment of such Courts a Judge of the High Court shall be assigned, in such manner as shall be prescribed by law, to discharge the office of Judicial Commissioner under this Act.

Section (4) goes on to provide powers for the appointment of Commissioners. Section (5) dissolves the Congested Districts Board. Some of the powers of the Congested Districts Board, as exercised in the past, have passed formally to the Ministry of Fisheries and others to the Ministry of Industry and Commerce. While it is recognised that that Board played a very useful part in the past and did very useful work for the country, there seems no case for its continuance in the altered conditions. It is therefore formally dissolved by Section (5). Most of the rest of the Bill is simply consequential upon the transfer of the jurisdiction and powers of the Board to the Land Commission, transferring its property, providing for the validation of existing contracts, and disposing of its funds. Section (10) deals with pending legal proceedings either by or against the Congested Districts Board:—

In all suits, matters and proceedings to which the Congested Districts Board is a party and which at the passing of this Act are pending in any Court in Saorstát Eireann, the Irish Land Commission shall on the passing of this Act become and be a party in the place of the Congested Districts Board, and every such suit, matter and proceeding shall be continued between the Irish Land Commission and the other parties thereto accordingly.

Section (11) adapts existing enactments to the altered conditions, and Section (12) vests control of the Land Commission in the Minister for Agriculture. Section (13) deals with expenses and staff, making the Ministry of Finance the body responsible for all such payments in future. If Senators wish to mention special information which they require I will endeavour to meet them.

Colonel Sir HUTCHESON POE

I wish to refer to the discussion which took place in the Dáil with regard to the Congested Districts Board officials who will suffer on the disestablishment of that body unless some adjustment of their position takes place. It appears that when the Congested Districts Board was formed certain pledges were given by the British Government of the day that these men would be treated to all intents and purposes as Civil Service officials both as regards promotion, superannuation, pensions, gratuities and so on. These pledges, for one cause or another, were not fulfilled. When the Bill was under discussion in the Dáil a number of Deputies brought the case of these officials forward and stated that they had already suffered a good many disabilities through being underpaid as compared with men who are doing the same duty in the Land Commission, and that they would be still further penalised unless some adjustment of the difference were made. Deputies FitzGibbon, O'Connell, Davin, and others, spoke very strongly in their favour. As far as I understand, the Minister was quite prepared to admit that these pledges given by the British Government had not been carried out, and was ready to undertake that on their transfer to the Land Commission they would be placed in as good a position with regard to future superannuation and gratuities as if these pledges had been fulfilled. I understand further that several Deputies stated they were quite prepared to accept that assurance of the Minister as regards the future of these men, but having regard to the fact that the Land Commission is benefiting to the extent of about £1,500,000, that has been saved by the Board, the cost of adjusting the salaries of these men for the last nine or ten years, who have been, so to speak, underpaid as compared with officials in the Land Commission, would not amount to much and should be defrayed out of this nest-egg, so to speak, of £1,500,000. I think some Deputies stated that the cost involved would be only £14,000, which would be a comparatively small sum and would not involve any special charge on the Exchequer.

I understood the Minister to say that he was not prepared to give any assurance of that kind. He could not go back on the misdeeds of the past, and could not give any undertaking. The matter was pressed to a division and the voting was fairly close, 32 or 33 to 25. I only mention the matter in case that other Senators wished to call attention to it on the Committee Stage. I do not know if the Minister could say anything that will throw some light on the subject.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Section 5 of the Bill was a Section around which there was most discussion in the Dáil, and both the Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Finance made their positions fairly clear on the matter. Section 5 is a very short Section.

Immediately upon the passing of this Act the Congested Districts Board shall stand dissolved, and thereupon every officer and person then in the employment of the Congested Districts Board shall be transferred to the employment of the Irish Land Commission, and shall, for the purposes of the Superannuation Acts, 1834 to 1919, be deemed to have been paid from moneys provided by Parliament or the Oireachtas throughout their service under the Congested Districts Board within the meaning of Section 17 of the Superannuation Act, 1859.

That Section is more than a mere safeguarding Section. It provides that no officer in the employment of the Congested Districts Board at the time of the dissolution shall be shed in the process of transfer to the Irish Land Commission, for it expressly states that every officer and person then in the employment of the former shall be transferred to the latter. No one, however, becomes under the clause entitled on transfer to what he had not before; that is the non-pensionable staff does not by the fact of the transfer become entitled to a pension, but it does give the power in the case of a temporary or non-pensionable officer made permanent to have all previous non-pensionable service counted towards pension if so desired. The wording of the Section as it stands does not confer pensions upon those who were under their service with the Congested Districts Board non-pensionable. The pensionable staff comes over fully entitled to count on their previous service under the Board for pensionable purposes, not under the pensionable system of the Board, but under the general pensions system of the Civil Service. One effect of this will be to remove an injustice under which officers of the Board laboured for many years. That injustice arose out of the interpretation of Section 52 of the Land Act of 1909, which was inserted with the intention of enabling the Congested Districts Board to grant their own staff the pensions and gratuities already possessed by the ordinary Civil Service under the Superannuation Acts. These privileges since the Superannuation Act of 1909 had included the right of a representative of a deceased pensionable officer to receive a gratuity equal to a year's salary, but when Section 52 came to be interpreted it was held that through loose drafting the Section gave no power to pay such a gratuity. The Treasury admitted at the time that unintended injustice had been done to the Board's staff in this matter, and stated that it was their intention to incorporate in some coming Bill a Clause rectifying the error. This intention did not mature until the bringing in of the Land Bill of 1920, which included a Clause for the purpose. The Bill was not proceeded with, and so the matter stood previous to the introduction of this Bill. Clause 5 of the Land Law (Commission) Bill definitely removes the grievance for cases of future deaths, and would also, presumably, enable the Minister for Finance to make the improvement retrospective, that is to give the gratuity to the representatives of any pensionable member of the Board's staff who died between 1909 and the present day.

That is the official case with regard to Section 5. You could not deal with the big question of establishment by legislation. There is an Establishment Branch of the Ministry of Finance that can definitely deal with this question of the officials of the Congested Districts Board by incorporating them, or all of them who would be entitled, in the ordinary Civil Service. There are in the Congested Districts Board, as there are attached to Ministries of the Government, clerical officers who are not Civil Servants, and it is not proposed to make it mandatory to incorporate in the Civil Service officers of that kind who were attached to the Congested Districts Board. The Ministry of Finance, and the Ministry of Agriculture are out to do substantial justice to the staff of the Congested Districts Board, and as has been pointed out they remove in the Bill the chief grievances that officials of the Congested Districts Board were labouring under. It is pointed out that that injustice was simply due to an error of draughtsmanship which has not been rectified up to the time this Bill was introduced.

Col. Sir HUTCHESON POE

I am obliged for the Minister's explanation. The only point that has not been cleared up is that if possible something should be done with regard to these officials who have been on a very much lower salary than they would have received if the pledges of the British Government had been carried out. The contention of Deputies in the Dáil was that having a large sum of money at their disposal, taken over from the Congested Districts Board, something might be done where there was a manifest injustice. Where the Minister for Agriculture was satisfied that officials had suffered within the last nine or ten years, something might be done to give them something in the nature of a bonus out of that fund, and to indemnify them against that injustice.

Mr. BENNETT

If any kind of arrangement is to be suggested to give men money which they were not earning I hope the Seanad will be put into possession of what their salaries were. I think the solution of the difficulty outlined by the Government is an admirable one, and I certainly would be adverse to giving men salaries which they never thought they were to get and where they are receiving every possible consideration in regard to pensions and any grades which they did earn. The suggestion seems to me to be unjust to the community as a whole and I should certainly oppose it.

Col. Sir HUTCHESON POE

I think there has been a misconception, because if these pledges had been carried out these men would have been receiving, for nine or ten years, a much larger sum than they did.

Mr. MacLYSAGHT

How many speeches is a Senator allowed to make?

AN LEAS-CHATHAOIRLEACH

It is not in order to discuss matters across the floor of the House. The Chair should be addressed.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I think that the Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Finance took a very definite stand on this matter on the occasion of the Bill's passage through the Dáil. If any Senator is not satisfied the best thing would be to put down a specific amendment for the Committee Stage.

Motion made and question put:—"That the Bill be now read a second time."

Agreed.