Our next business is the election of a Senator to fill the vacancy caused by the resignation of Sir Horace Plunkett. Four names have been sent in, and they have been duly nominated in compliance with Standing Orders.
ELECTION OF SENATOR.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Would I be in order to speak as bringing forward Mr. Brown's name?
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
We have no Standing Order inconsistent with that, and I think you are in order in doing so.
I beg to inform the Seanad that I have the honour of nominating Mr. Samuel L. Brown, K.C., for the vacancy created by Sir Horace Plunkett's retirement—a retirement which we all regret. In considering who should follow him in his seat on the Seanad, for some considerable time a good many of us have been looking at the serious difficulty in which we were placed in the Seanad from having no one with legal training or special legal knowledge amongst our Senators.
In every case where any question of law came forward we had only our Chairman to appeal to, and we have known cases with which it was very difficult for the Chairman in his position to deal. To have a barrister of great experience and great mental capacity in every way amongst our members appeared to us as one of the objects which the Seanad should undoubtedly be pleased to carry out. Those of us who feel that we represent the same class of interest that Sir Horace Plunkett did know that we are doing not only good for ourselves by getting him amongst our number to consult with, but that his name and ability are of such supreme and outstanding importance and known to every Irishman, we are really conferring not only a benefit upon ourselves, but upon the Seanad by proposing him and bringing him forward.
I think anyone here who has anything to do with business affairs knows the standing of Mr. Brown. He has been a K.C. of many years' standing. He is at present in the full swing of his practice, and it may be well to let the Seanad know, as probably they ought to know, the chances they have of getting the services of Mr. Brown if we elect him. It happens that Mr. Brown is considering the giving up of a good deal of his practice. He has now done many years of hard work, and he thinks it is time that he was not at the beck and call of every man. So he intends to draw back from his active practice, and when speaking to him on the subject he told me that he felt that if the Seanad concluded that what talents he had, what knowledge and experience he had, were useful to them, he would like to be a member and devote those talents to the work of the State, and that he would give any portion of his time and ability which the Seanad required. He is in his full health in every way, and, therefore, I think, and I have no hesitation in saying that as far as filling the needs of the Seanad and giving us a man of great capacity with an immense knowledge of Ireland and its needs, we cannot do better than elect Mr. Brown. I wonder if the Seanad would excuse me for a minute in dealing with another matter which hangs upon this more or less?
I am sorry to intervene. I do not know the nature of Senator Jameson's application. I am afraid if the supporters of each candidate get up and make speeches, and enlarge on the qualifications of each candidate, we will take up a considerable amount of time and bring the level of this Seanad down to that of a Board of Guardians or County Council. I earnestly suggest that we rely upon the information contained in the regulations sent out by the Seanad itself and on our own personal information as to what candidates we should vote for.
It is because of our experience in the past that I am making those remarks. Hitherto, vacancies that have occurred in the Seanad have been dealt with as he says. There has been only one candidate proposed representative of the section to which the retiring member belonged. No other candidate has been put forward, and we have acquiesced in the proposal at once. The reason I am taking this unusual proceeding is that we have departed in this instance from that practice, and what I was going to say is endorsed by the Senator, and I think he will agree with it by the time I have closed. I happened to be personally engaged in the arrangements made for the establishment of the Seanad. I happened to be one of those who discussed the whole matter with President Griffith.
Going back into a little bit of history, which perhaps the Seanad may have forgotten, when the Treaty was being discussed in London, some of us met Mr. Griffith, and we arranged with him, and obtained his agreement to, certain proposals concerned with the establishment of the Seanad and various other matters. After the Treaty this was carried further, and a few of us, representing different interests from Mr. Griffith, met in Committee in London. We met Mr. Griffith and Mr. O'Higgins, and, with Mr. Winston Churchill in the chair, we carried out those arrangements connected with the establishment of the Seanad. I think Mr. O'Higgins—I see he is here—will agree with me that both sides put their heads together to design the most useful class of Seanad, and agreed that it was to be an assembly in which minorities are to be represented, and most carefully was it decided how many there were to be, how many representative of different interests. Unfortunately, the carrying out of this did not fall into Mr. Griffith's hands. President Cosgrave, when he took up the burden of President, carried out loyally every arrangement which Mr. Griffith and Mr. O'Higgins made with us.
That was in November of last year, and, knowing what was coming on to-day, and seeing how the Seanad themselves appeared to be departing from the arrangements then made, I thought it might be wise to-day to consider a bit of that history. I happen to have here a list which President Cosgrave did me the honour in going through in making his nominations to the Seanad It is the nominated parties I am now discussing. This is a confidential document, and, therefore, I cannot show it. In it every consideration was given to the various interests which this Seanad was supposed to be representative of, and which were put here because they could not be put into the Dáil.
And yet both Mr. Griffith and President Cosgrave believed that it was essential at the beginning of the Free State that these minority interests should be properly represented. I only refer to these things because hitherto the Seanad recognised them, but if we depart from that now, and if a member of any one of these sections who were appointed in that way retired, and if no attention was paid to the opinions of his colleagues as to who should succeed him, if, whenever a vacancy occurs, four or five, or any number of candidates are to be put forward, quite regardless of what section or interests the retiring member represented, it is quite within the power of the Seanad to wipe out all small sections within a very short time and do away with the whole scheme long before the country has any voice in the matter.
We all know the sections that are represented. Take Mr. O'Farrell's own section; there is not the vestige of a doubt that if the Seanad chose to put it to a vote they could wipe out the Labour representation. The Seanad could wipe out any of us who represent the business and land-holding interests The same thing applies to the farming interests, and it seems to me that by bringing forward candidates of this sort who have not got the approval of the section to which the retiring candidate belongs, we are doing away with the very principle upon which the Seanad itself was constructed by Mr. Griffith and President Cosgrave, and which was agreed amongst us all in very long and difficult negotiations as the wisest arrangement. I am merely mentioning this matter of history now because this is the first time in which that rule has been questioned.
It is not a rule; the Seanad can break it if it likes, but I would say this, that I think the Seanad would be better advised if they followed on the lines laid down by Mr. Griffith and President Cosgrave, and allowed the fellow-members of the member who represented any particular interest to be the persons to bring a candidate before the House. It is always open to the House, if any objectionable person were brought forward, to raise objections, but I think that it ought to be a necessary qualification for any candidate that he should have the approval of those who sit on the same benches as the retiring candidate. I trust the House will excuse me for saying this, but I think that Senator O'Farrell will see that I am pointing as much as possible along the same line as he is, and that I believe if what I suggest is adopted there will be no further infliction on the Seanad such as this of mine.
I deprecate very much, indeed, eulogies of any particular candidate, and in this case I think the suggestion of Senator Jameson is that Sir Horace Plunkett belonged to a particular section which, for historical accuracy, we will call the Southern Unionists. Sir Horace Plunkett, to my mind, represented here the great agricultural movement, the great co-operative movement, the great movement of establishing technical instruction, and all the great movements of that nature, and to revive our knowledge of history I would point out that Sir Horace Plunkett, with a very few others, some here, and of whom I happen to be one, launched forth the Irish Dominion League, which had not the approval of any narrow or of any particular section in this House. He was its founder, and one of his great objects and one of the things to which he devoted a long period of his life was the bringing to fruition such a programme as was adumbrated in the Irish Dominion League. I regret having to mention these facts, but when I think that Sir Horace Plunkett, to my mind, tried to stand aloof from all sections and from all parties where he thought the good of his country required it, I do not like to hear him put into a compartment as the representative of any particular section, excepting the section which represented Irish agriculture, Irish agricultural development and Irish agricultural interests.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Are you proposing or nominating any other candidate?
No.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Then you have got a complete advantage over me. I should never have allowed you to say anything of what you have said if I had known that, but it is now too late. I take it that the names of four candidates are to be submitted to a ballot of the House?
Am I in order in proposing the candidate who stands in my name, or does Senator Jameson's candidate require a seconder?
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
No, it is a nomination. Senator Jameson spoke to me on this question shortly before we met to-day as to whether he would be in order in making any statement on the nomination of any particular candidate. I was not myself quite satisfied that it was desirable that that should be done, but, at the same time, I was not in a position to say it was contrary to any of our Standing Orders, and if for the future the Seanad considers that it is not desirable that different candidates should have their merits proclaimed by their nominators, it would be necessary to frame an additional Standing Order for the purpose. But as our Standing Orders at present exist, I could not see my way to rule Senator Jameson out of order.
I think the very interesting statement that Senator Jameson has made will remind many of us, myself included, of the obligations which we owe to the parties to which we respectively belong. It was the failure to recognise and to remember that obligation that has led me into somewhat of a difficulty, for in standing up, as you may suppose, to nominate Mr. Gill, I feel bound, after what Senator Jameson brought forward and called my attention to yesterday, to announce that I am not prepared to support his candidature. It was the failure to recognise that that has led me into this difficulty, and the moment it was pointed out to me in the Seanad that at this early stage of our existence, to interfere with the balance of parties, which, for the protection of different minorities was laid down by the Constitution, was undesirable, I placed myself unreservedly in Mr. Gill's hands, to abide by whatever decision he might arrive at. I saw him yesterday, and pointed out the difficulty I was placed in, and that by apparently going behind the back of the Party in whose interests I was acting, I was really acting ultra vires in submitting the name of a gentleman who, whatever his qualifications might be, could not be said to represent that minority, and, as I said, I was going behind the back of my own Party. I had no intention whatever of doing anything of the kind, but in the circumstances I put myself into Mr. Gill's hands, and, with your permission, I will read his reply.
It is dated Tuesday (yesterday) evening.
"Dear Sir Hutcheson,—
"In view of the new factor you have learned of this afternoon, and of which I, too, had been previously unaware—viz., the understanding as to a quota of the nominated seats in the Senate being for the present regarded as allotted to the Southern Unionists, and Sir Horace Plunkett's seat being reckoned as one of these —I can see the difficulty thus involved for you in proposing a man who does not belong to that party or class description, should your friends insist on that line of selection. I would not think of leaving you under such an obligation in the circumstances, and I desire you to be perfectly free not to propose my name, and Sir Nugent to be equally free as regards seconding it. I am grateful to you both, with whom I have had long association in public work, for your esteem and for the honour you have done me in wishing and moving to have me with you on the Senate.
"Yours sincerely,
"T.P. GILL."
The circumstances connected with Mr. Gill's candidature are of such an exceptional character that I would ask the indulgence of the House, in spite of what Senator O'Farrell has said, and in justice to Mr. Gill and myself, to make a short statement. The first intimation that I, or, as I understand, any member of the Seanad, had of any desire on the part of Mr. Gill to come forward in Sir Horace Plunkett's place was last Tuesday week, when Mr. Gill and I happened to be fellow-travellers from London to Holyhead. In the course of conversation Mr. Gill told me of his desire to be of some service, if he could, to the country, and before venturing to stand in Sir Horace Plunkett's place he had been over to London and had consulted him. He did not like to come to any decision without his approval. Sir Horace Plunkett welcomed the idea and wished him success. Under these circumstances, and believing from Mr. Gill's long services on behalf of Ireland, his association with Sir Horace Plunkett in founding the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction, his support of his policy for bringing men of all creeds and parties together to work in the good of their common country, and his long connection with the Department of Agriculture, left no doubt in my mind that if we could secure his services the Seanad would gain in importance and dignity.
Therefore I had no hesitation in being his sponsor. It was only on my return to Ireland yesterday morning that I learned for the first time my action was questioned, and that, as I said before, I had done something that was perhaps not quite straightforward, but I think no one would consider that I had done it with intention. I placed myself in Mr. Gill's hands, and he met me in the most frank and generous manner, and you have heard his letter. Personally, I very much regret that this untoward development has deprived us of the services of Mr. Gill. I think if his nomination had gone forward he would have received a large measure of support. I can assure you, and I do so with all sincerity, that if there is a vacancy in the future for which he would be eligible, I should be only too glad to do all I can to support his candidature in any way he thinks fit. I beg to withdraw Mr. Gill's name.
I am the nominator of Mr. Denis McCullough for the Senatorship. I cannot agree with the points of view put forward by Senator Jameson, and agreed to by Senator Hutcheson-Poë, that the vacancy should be filled by Mr. Brown. Senator Sir Hutcheson- Poë said that when Mr. Gill spoke to Sir Horace Plunkett in London he wished Mr. Gill success. Does not that imply that his cloak would envelop the figure of Mr. Gill admirably? I cannot see how we are going to carry on in water-tight compartments, as suggested by Senator Jameson. I agree certainly with a great deal of what he said as to having representation in this House, which representation might not take place in the Lower House, but there is one class of representation you have not in the Seanad, and that is representation from the North. The North is a question, I submit, which, if settled, would automatically settle a lot of the difficulties of this country. Mr. McCullough is a gentleman whom I have known for a great many years. He is a man of business instincts and experience.
He knows the Northern question thoroughly. He has suffered very much for his country, and he has suffered— what many of us anticipated ourselves —in his own person and property. I have had business connection with him for the past twelve months or so, on a Committee discussing ways and means, and I was very much struck with his way of handling finance and the clear methods with which he transacted insurance business, and he is a man with an economic outlook, which my friend, Senator Sir John Keane, would very much appreciate. I am sure he would be a great backing up to Sir John Keane in his economic programme. I do not think any party in the Seanad would suffer by the presence of Mr. McCullough, because, notwithstanding his ideas on the national point of view, he is a man of large mind, and in spite of all he has suffered he has nothing but charity in his heart.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
The name of Mr. Gill having been withdrawn, there are now three candidates before the Seanad, and under our Standing Orders a vote will now be taken by ballot, and on this vote each Senator is free to record his vote for not more than two out of the three. He may only vote for one if he wishes, but he cannot vote for more than two out of the three. The object of this ballot is to bring down the number of candidates from three to two.
I feel constrained to say a few words, because I am in the rather anomalous position of having supported a candidate, and while agreeing with Senator Jameson thoroughly in all he said, I do not intend to misinterpret him. At the same time, it is difficult to explain my position in having nominated another candidate without throwing a wet blanket on the candidate himself. When the vacancy took place by the retirement of Sir Horace Plunkett, there was nobody in the field. There was a proposal to nominate a gentleman who subsequently withdrew. It was then I proposed the Marquis MacSwiney, because I thought by so doing I would not imperil in any way the dignity of the Seanad, and at the same time we would have the advantage of his knowledge of European affairs if we wish to be represented at the League of Nations.
As regards the point which Senator Jameson made, with which I agree, the only difficulty is, how is one to define accurately the Party compartment in this Seanad. Sir Horace Plunkett, we recognise, represented a certain interest and a very varied one. I am of opinion that there is less difference between Marquis MacSwiney and Sir Horace Plunkett than there is between Mr. Brown and Sir Horace Plunkett. While I do not go as far as the French Republicans in the opposition they showed to Barristers at the time of the Revolution, I think, Sir, you are adequate to give us any legal advice we may require. While I explain that I am very far from wishing to be taken in any way as opposing Senator Jameson—he is the last man whom I would wish to oppose—I want to make this explanation, without throwing a shadow on my nominee, that I think he is not too averse to the interests which Mr. Brown could be elected to represent. This is merely a personal explanation.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
The papers will now be distributed.
Is it obligatory on Senators to vote for two?
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
No. You cannot vote for more than two, but you may vote for one only.
Do you vote according to proportional representation?
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
We have nothing to do with proportional representation at this election.
You can vote for two people, but you do not put them "1" and "2"?
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
We are reducing the candidates from three to two. This vote will not determine the election. This vote will only week out one of the three candidates.
The first ballot was then taken.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
The two candidates left in are Mr. Brown and Mr. McCullough. There will be a final vote taken as between these two gentlemen.
Can we have the result of the first vote?
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
I would like to gratify a lady's curiosity, but I am not sure whether it is desirable. I will do it if the Seanad as a body wishes, but I would suggest that it is not desirable.
SENATORS
No.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
As a result of this last poll Mr. Samuel Brown has been elected.
I think we ought to have the figures.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
I will put it to the Seanad. Those in favour of having the figures hold up their hands.
On a show of hands the motion was carried.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
The figures are:—Mr. Samuel Browne, 27; Mr. Denis McCullough, 26.