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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 30 Apr 1925

Vol. 5 No. 1

PRIVATE BUSINESS. - DUNDALK HARBOUR AND PORT BILL, 1924—REPORT STAGE.

I move:—

"In Section 15, page 8, line 52, to delete all from the word ‘and' to the words ‘the Chairman,' in line 54."

It might be well if I explained the object of the amendment. I am sure most Senators have not read this Bill, but the object underlying this, and the subsequent amendments, is to prevent a limited liability company from having the right to nominate a representative on a local authority. The position, as far as I understand it, is this, that the Dundalk Harbour Board promoted a Bill. In order to get the Bill through they had to come to agreements with persons who own a portion of the quays in Dundalk. In the original draft of the Bill the portal authorities did not make provision that one of the companies trading to the port should have the right conferred on it by statute to nominate a representative on this local authority. In order to stall off the opposition of one of the private limited companies in possession of portion of the Dundalk quays, who put the screw on the port authority, the authority was compelled to insert in the Bill a clause giving this limited company the right to nominate a representative under the seal of the company, who would be, ipso facto, a member of the local authority, and would have the same privileges and powers as any other member, whether elected or nominated. During the Committee Stage I objected to this clause, and the learned counsel who was appearing in support of the Bill stated that there were precedents for such a course as this. I said that as far as I was aware it was unprecedented to confer a right by statute on any limited company to nominate a representative on a local authority. The learned counsel afterwards admitted that he could not find any precedent.

I move these amendments because of the fact that the qualifications for the franchise for the election of members of the Dundalk port authority are, in the first place, resident within a radius of five miles of the courthouse in Dundalk, living in and paying rates for a house with a Poor Law Valuation of £20, or owning £100 stock in any steamship company trading to the port.

I want to draw the attention of the Seanad to the undemocratic nature of the franchise, because in the first place the great bulk of the people who live in Dundalk and the surrounding districts and who do not own premises of a £20 valuation, are debarred from the right to elect people who control the port of Dundalk. The livelihood of these people may depend on that port. You have the position that a person who may live in Timbuctoo but who may happen to have £100 worth of shares in any steamship company trading to the port has the franchise. Further than that, the persons who are eligible to be elected to the port authority must have the franchise or be persons owning £100 worth of stock in any of the shipping companies trading to the port. It is perhaps the most undemocratic proposal I ever heard of in my life to confer the right by statute on a company trading in the port to nominate any person they desire to be a member of the port authority of Dundalk. I say it is undemocratic, it is unprecedented, and it is setting up a very dangerous precedent if you are going to give any limited company a right that they shall nominate a representative on a local authority.

It is a notorious fact that the port of Dublin is run by the shipping companies who are trading in the port. But if they run the port they get elected on the franchise that is in existence. There is no right there conferred on any company by statute to nominate a representative on the Board. They must go through the ordinary form of election. No doubt they are sure of being elected because they control the votes—some of them control 1,500 votes. In Dundalk, however, they do not even go through the formality of being elected. There they seek to get the right by statute for a company to elect under seal a member of the port's authority, even while the majority of the people who live in Dundalk have not the right to vote for the election of anybody. Was there ever anything so undemocratic in any democratic country? I ask the Seanad to consider what is at stake in this. I have no animus in the matter. I have not mentioned the name of the company. It is not a question of animus. It is a question of principle. There is a big principle at stake. I ask the Seanad to support the amendment down in my name, which means that no company shall have a right conferred on them by statute to have a person elected to act on the port authority of Dundalk. They have, as I said before, the means of being elected in the ordinary way without having conferred on them the right of directly nominating a representative.

I second the amendment moved by Senator Farren. The proposal in the Bill is a most undemocratic proposal, to have a limited company nominating a member on the Harbour Board. There is another phase of the matter to which I wish to draw the attention of the Seanad. Dundalk is the natural port for shipping cattle and perishable goods for the North Midlands and a good portion of Ulster. It has not, up to this, been able to get that traffic owing to being dependant on tides. As a result of this Bill the Harbour Board will be in a position to clean the river sufficiently to enable boats to come up at any stage of the tide. That is absolutely necessary in order that the cattle, eggs and butter from that area should pass through this port, because, if not, the rival port at Greenore is bound to get this traffic.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I am afraid this is hardly pertinent.

I submit it is, because the company who owns the rival port of Greenore is the company that is to be allowed to nominate this representative on the port of Dundalk. Now, the more the port of Dundalk is developed the more trade will be done there and the less trade will be done in Greenore. The company that nominates this representative is the Dundalk, Newry and Greenore Steamship Company. They have a very up-to-date port at Greenore, with a daily service to Holyhead. They have a large amount of traffic there which legitimately should go to Dundalk; if Dundalk were properly developed they would lose that traffic, and now it is seriously proposed in this Bill that that company should nominate a man on the Dundalk Port Authority whose direct interest it would be to prevent the development of the port. It is absurd. It is against the interests of Dundalk, and I wish very strongly to support the amendment, and I hope the Seanad will approve of it.

I think the Committee considered every clause carefully. It is only fair to Senator Farren to say that he did draw attention to and object to this clause. There are one or two points that I just want to bring before the Seanad, and one is that there is nothing exceptional in the mode of election or qualification so far as harbour boards are concerned. The very same restriction as to qualification of electors appears in Sligo and in a great many other places. When the Local Government Bill of 1898 was being passed through the House of Commons this very question was brought up with a view to having the mode of election to the port in the same way as those to the municipal bodies. The reason given there exists to-day, and that is, that a port authority is in a slightly different position.

If the members connected with the Harbour Board do not take any interest in their trust, or if they neglect the interest of the port in any way, they might bring very serious loss upon the whole community. In other municipal undertakings it is more a question, perhaps, of getting into debt or being extravagant. But the neglect of the port might mean cessation of a great deal of employment in the whole district. With reference to the question of representation for this company, it must be borne in mind that the company has spent a considerable sum of money. I think it is in the interest of the community to see that they would continue to take an interest in the port of Dundalk. Both Newry and Dundalk are in very close competition with Belfast, and it would be a great pity if anything would happen to throw back in any way the propriety of these two ports in the Free State. It is very easy to turn away trade, but it is not so easy to get it back again. It must be clear to the Seanad that it is to the interests of the Commissioners to do what they consider best in the interests of the port. If they thought any harm was likely to be done by the appointment of this single representative, amongst 15 or 16 Commissioners, they would have made their protest long before this. I have no object in intervening except to see that the prosperity of the port of Dundalk would increase in every way.

Senator Farren mentioned that there was no precedent for this. In connection with the Carlingford Lough Commissioners, in the Act of 1864, confirming a Provisional Order of the Board of Trade in the same year, the Newry and Greenore Railway Company were empowered to appoint two Commissioners and the Dundalk and Greenore Railway Company were empowered also to appoint two. These rights are now exercised. It will be remembered that under the Railway Directorate Act the London, Midland, and Scottish Railway Company were empowered to appoint a director on the Board of the amalgamated company. There are one or two other precedents that I could show the Senator.

Senator Farren was a member of the Private Bill Committee which considered this Bill. He, no doubt, put his views very fully before the Committee, and the Committee apparently decided against him. I have myself been a member of several Private Bill Committees, and I have not always agreed with their decisions, but I think it would be subversive of Private Bill legislation altogether if a member of such a Committee, because he was disappointed with the decision——

May I say that there never was a decision of the Committee on the matter; no vote was taken.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Did not the Committee pass it?

The Committee were never divided.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Was there a vote challenged?

Possibly I could make the matter clear by explaining that this was introduced in what is known as the "filled-up Bill," which is always submitted to the Committee on behalf of the promoters and which frequently includes certain agreements reached between the promoters and certain opponents of the Bill. The Committee can accept that filled-up Bill or reject it. If there was no mention on behalf of any member of the Committee to remove the portions, that meant acceptance by the Committee. It did not mean that there was a division or a vote taken, but it did mean that it was put before the Committee and not objected to by them, and, therefore, accepted as far as this House is concerned. I do not think there is any Standing Order to prevent a member of a Committee from moving a further amendment when the Bill comes before this House.

I submit it is subversive altogether of the principle of Private Bill legislation. These Bills are referred to a Committee for consideration and very considerable expense is incurred in bringing the Bills before the Committee, where they are thoroughly discussed. When a decision is arrived at that some member does not approve of, if the whole question is again raised in this House, it is subversive altogether of Private Bill legislation and would be contrary to the public interest. It would, I think, be likely to retard the introduction of Bills.

As against what Senator Barrington has said, if the decision of a Committee was always to be taken without challenge, it would be possible for a Committee to approve of some particular legislation which might not be desirable. If the decision was never reviewed it would make for very bad legislation, and it would be a very dangerous precedent to establish. The decision of every Committee should be subject to revision and approval. Committees are appointed to consider Bills thoroughly, but their decisions should come up for revision and acceptance in the Seanad. To say that we should never reconsider the decisions of such Committees seems to me to make sound practical Private Bill legislation impossible.

I never suggested that. I suggested that when a person had been a member of a Private Bill Committee and the Committee had come to a certain decision that it ought not to be open to such member to raise the question again in the Seanad.

I want to say definitely that I am prepared to do my duty as I see it, whether it is pleasing or not to others.

I served on scores of committees, and whatever the decision it was always open to every member of a committee to raise a question again. That was done very often to my own knowledge. Sometimes one was with the majority and the other people were not sufficiently wise to raise the question again in another place. Might I also point out that the question Senator Farren has raised was not raised before the Committee, so that I think it is in order.

I was a member of the Joint Committee that considered this Bill, and while I am not interested in what Senator Barrington said about the good taste, if I may so describe it, of Senator Farren in bringing the subject again before the Seanad, I am interested in this Bill. I am opposed to the amendment proposed by Senator Farren for this reason, that we have too much criticism in this country. No one seems to want to do anything, and the moment anyone seeks to do anything you have scores of critics getting up and wanting to prevent them. This Bill was initiated by people in Dundalk where a lot of different interests were concerned. The promoters of the Bill wished to get these to work in harmony under one port authority. There were a lot of interests involved, and the Bill, if it came before the Committee in its original form, would have given a great deal of trouble. Prior to coming before the Committee certain matters were arranged between the conflicting interests so that it came on as an agreed measure. It seems to me that it is simply a commercial undertaking for the promoters of the Bill to agree to the proposition of the Dundalk and Newry Railway Company to have the right of appointing one of eighteen commissioners who will work the Bill. There were seven or eight members, if I remember, on the Joint Committee, and Senator Farren was the only one to introduce this objection, which was quite a good one, on principle, to the appointment by this company of a director. I think I am right in saying that the Bill left our hands without any vote being taken. If it could be proved to Senator Farren's satisfaction that there was a precedent for such action, I think he said he would agree to it.

Counsel could not actually give a precedent at the time, but since then I have gone to some trouble and I have obtained the precedent of two commissioners being elected by Dundalk, Newry and Greenore Railway Company on the Carlingford Lough Commissioners. I appeal to the Seanad not to throw the Bill back to the promoters after all the expenses they have incurred. They are endeavouring to do something for the country. Dundalk is the most northeasterly port in the Free State and is going to be an important competitor with the port of Belfast. Newry is a very important competitor with Dundalk. The object of the Bill is to put Dundalk in a position to deal with English traffic for that portion of the Free State.

Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 20; Níl, 17.

  • T.W. Bennett.
  • R.A. Butler.
  • Mrs. E. Costello.
  • J.C. Dowdall.
  • Michael Duffy.
  • Sir T. Esmonde.
  • Thomas Farren.
  • Thomas Foran.
  • Sir John Griffith.
  • Douglas Hyde.
  • C.J. Irwin.
  • P.W. Kenny.
  • James MacKean.
  • Edward MacLysaght.
  • William J. Molloy.
  • Colonel Moore.
  • J.T. O'Farrell.
  • John O'Neill.
  • Bernard O'Rourke.
  • Mrs. Wyse Power.

Níl

  • John Bagwell.
  • William Barrington.
  • S.L. Brown.
  • Countess of Desart.
  • Sir Nugent Everard.
  • Mrs. A. Stopford Green.
  • Henry S. Guinness.
  • Benjamin Haughton.
  • Marquess of Headfort.
  • Arthur Jackson.
  • Sir J. Keane.
  • Earl of Kerry.
  • Joseph Clayton Love.
  • Earl of Mayo.
  • George Nesbitt.
  • Earl of Wicklow.
  • W.B. Yeats.
Amendment declared carried.

I move:—

Section 15, page 8, line 58. To delete all from the word "regards" to the words "the Chairman" in line 60.

This amendment is consequential.

I second.

Amendment declared carried on a show of hands.

SECTION 92.

I beg to move the deletion of Sub-section 5. This is a similar amendment to the one which I have already moved.

Amendment put and agreed to.
Barr
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