Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 Jul 1925

Vol. 5 No. 13

ELECTORAL (SEANAD ELECTIONS) BILL, 1925.—COMMITTEE.

Question—"That clauses 1 to 5, inclusive, stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.

Mr. de LOUGHRY

I beg to move:

Before Section 6 to insert a new section as follows:—"6.—(1) The Minister may make rules under this Act prescribing the manner in which the preferences of persons unable to vote in the ordinary manner by reason of illiteracy or impaired sight or other physical disability are to be elicited and, generally, the manner in which presiding officers at polling stations are to act with respect to the exercise by such persons of the franchise.

(2) Rules made pursuant to this section may annex as a schedule directions or instructions for the guidance of presiding officers with respect to any matters or details relevant to the voting of such persons as aforesaid which are not reasonably capable of being made the subject of formal or definite rules.

(3) The Minister may, if he thinks fit, by rules made pursuant to this section, prescribe that any person voting as aforesaid shall be presumed to have the same knowledge of the contents of the ballot paper as a person voting in the ordinary manner would obtain by reading it, and that accordingly it shall not be the duty of the presiding officer to read the ballot paper to any such person as aforesaid."

The object of the amendment is to facilitate the carrying out of the election. We can all conceive what trouble there will be with a ballot paper containing 76 names. I am not sure that most of the presiding officers are bound to read out the complete list of names to facilitate illiterate voters. I want to give the Minister power to make arrangements with regard to the voting of illiterate voters. He might, perhaps, issue instructions to the presiding officers to the effect that they may not go through the formality of reading the entire list to the illiterate voters.

MINISTER for JUSTICE (Mr. O'HIGGINS)

We do not favour the acceptance of this amendment. The Senator, I am sure, before putting down the amendment read the provisions which the Electoral Act of 1923 makes in respect of electors, who, owing to defective sight, physical incapacity or the fact of being illiterate, have difficulty in marking their ballot papers. These provisions are contained in Section 24 and elaborate instructions are set out in Part II. of the Schedule for the guidance of presiding officers in dealing with blind or illiterate voters. First of all, I consider these instructions are adequate and there does not seem to be any particular reason for departing from them. I see the Senator's point that when dealing with a long list of names it may take more time if the presiding officer embarks on the task of reading all the names on the panel to an illiterate voter. The instruction is to the effect that in an election held according to the principle of proportional representation the presiding officer shall ask the voter for which candidate he desires to express his preference, and in what order he shall mark the ballot paper accordingly: provided that where an elector does not understand the import of such questions, or does not give a definite direction as to the marking, the presiding officer shall read out the names of the candidates in the order in which they appear and shall ask the voter to which candidate he desires to give his first vote, and shall so place the figure, and so on.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Do you not think that the poor illiterate voter will have a bad chance of knowing what is going on if he has to listen to 75 names being read out?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

You have to be as fair to the last half-dozen candidates as to the first half dozen.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I see the difficulty, but if, on the other hand, you had in a particular booth a dozen or or more illiterate voters, most of the day would be occupied in reading out the full list. The only thing I was thinking of was, of giving discretion to the presiding officer in reading the list out or not. If he is compelled to do it in every case I think it might block the voting very much.

Mr. FARREN

My experience of what happens is this. After the illiterate voter gives his name and declares himself to be illiterate, the presiding officer reads out the complete list and asks him who he wishes to vote for.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

That is laid down.

Mr. de LOUGHRY

That is what will happen unless there is a definite rule or regulation laid down. I want power to qualify the provision in the Bill.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I think according to the existing regulation, which the Minister read, the names are only read at the request of the voter.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

The first step would be to ask the voter for which candidates he desires to express preference and in what order. Because a man is illiterate it does not follow that he has not a certain amount of intelligence, and when going into a booth he would know who he is going to vote for. The probability is that he will have seven or eight names in his mind and will mention these. It would be difficult to make rules which would meet the Senator's objections and, at the same time, ensure fairness and impartiality between all the candidates whose names appear on the panel. If the presiding officer had to read 75 names to a certain number of voters it might be better to have that done. I am afraid that the general impression throughout the country is that the booths will not be overcrowded, and any slight delay of that kind would mean undue obstruction.

Sir THOMAS ESMONDE

I have probably had as much experience of elections as any member of the Seanad. I would like to pay my tribute to the gentleman known as "the illiterate voter." My experience is that he always knows his business exceedingly well, and generally manages to vote for the person for whom he desires to vote. In support of this amendment, I would point out that there is nothing compulsory in it. It only gives latitude to the Minister, and says that if he chooses to make these rules he can do so. The Minister will probably find that it will not do any harm to the Bill. There may, on the other hand, be an illiterate person who would require instruction as to how he is to vote, and if anybody wanted to take advantage of this proposal he would be at liberty to do so.

Mr. KENNY

I would like to support the amendment. If the Minister has any experience of elections he must know that various uses can be made of the illiterate voter. I have known a particular ruse being worked for all it is worth at an election. All the available illiterate voters are assembled, and the polling booth is blocked with them, so that all the available time before the close of the poll is occupied in dealing with them.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

That particular form of tactics is specifically guarded against in the Electoral Act, which provides that the returning officer has discretion, four hours before the closing of the poll, to refuse to act on the rule of marking the paper for illiterate voters, if he thinks it might lead to obstruction, and that other voters might be prevented from voting.

Amendment put and agreed to.

The new section, the remaining sections, and the title ordered to stand part of the Bill.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

The next business on the agenda is the Constitution Amendment (No. 1) Bill, 1925, Committee Stage.

Mr. BROWN

I suggest that we should not go into this until the election is over, as I am afraid we are at present engaged in voting rather than listening to what is being said.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Then I will give you a quarter of an hour to complete the filling of the voting papers, and we will then take up the ordinary business. Senators will understand that they are not bound to hand their papers in now. That will do any time up to four o'clock, but I will not transact any other business for the next quarter of an hour.

Sitting suspended and resumed after a quarter of an hour's interval,An Cathaoirlach in the Chair.