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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 7 Jul 1925

Vol. 5 No. 15

SECOND STAGE.

Motion made—That this Bill be now read a Second Time.

The Oireachtas is about to adjourn for a period of four months, I think the longest adjournment in its history. The members of the other House, at all events, have earned their rest. They have had a very strenuous time and a lot of legislation was passed, some of it important and a good deal of it, I think, quite the reverse. It seems to me to be a pity that after all this legislation and in spite of the work put in the Oireachtas should now decide to adjourn for four months leaving the question of unemployment in an exceedingly unsettled and dangerous position. The only one of the Bills passed during the present session that holds out any hope of giving material employment during the present year is the Shannon Electricity Bill and that will not give any employment of any consequence before November. The Drainage Bill will hardly fructify this year. It will never fructify unless the county councils are determined to utilise it, and new councils have been elected very largely on a plea of low rates and hang the consequence. In these circumstances it is hardly likely that they will reverse engines so suddenly and embark on any scheme that is likely to put new burdens upon the ratepayers. The drainage of the Barrow has been talked of for a decade, but I am afraid it is still an ideal. There is no definite scheme as far as I am aware yet decided upon in regard to the construction of the suggested new trunk roads, and the position in respect to the addition to the Vote of £135,000 for giving employment is vague in the extreme. I do not think the Minister was able to tell the other House how the money was going to be spent, under what auspices or what bodies would be responsible for seeing that it is properly spent. The position, therefore, is that from the point of view of passing legislation with the view of relieving unemployment to get over this difficult period between now and the harvest very little has been done that will give relief this year. The number of unemployed entitled to benefit at present is, according to the Minister, about 22,000, while there are 13,000 not entitled to unemployment benefit who would come within the ambit of the Act.

It is well known that once the July benefit period is over the number of 22,000 will be considerably reduced and the number not entitled to unemployment benefit will be much greater than it is. After the October period the position will be infinitely worse, and the Dáil will not then have met. In addition to those registered as unemployed there are tens of thousands of other workless men who are not on any register. The Minister was unable to say what the numbers were, but they must be considerable, because they embrace agricultural labourers and a lot of casual labour which is never registered. To put the total at 50,000 would be a very conservative estimate. It could hardly be less, and it certainly might be very much more.

The great complaint against the Government in this matter is the dilatory manner in which they have proceeded with their measures for the relief of unemployment. They have had this question brought often enough to their notice to prevent their forgetting it. We have all realised that it is too great and important and vital a question to make it one of party politics, or of mere propaganda, and consequently it has been our object throughout to try and not embarrass the Government in any way, if we thought we could induce them to take vigorous and rapid steps to deal with the question. We met them on more than one occasion by deputation. As long ago as last November we had a very serious conference with the Government, and they seemed to appreciate fully the seriousness of the position and their desire seemed to be one with which we were in hearty agreement. That was, above all, to try and give work rather than unemployment benefit. All these months have passed since that time, and at the very end of the session we are only just enacting the measures that might be calculated to give employment, while thousands are running out of employment benefit, and the position, after October at all events, is going to be one which one does not like to contemplate.

A good harvest might make a world of difference. It might give employment to agricultural labourers for a period, and it might tend to increase the general prosperity of the country. But, in the meantime, there are thousands of people without the means of existence who have got to get bread in order to live. What is to become of them? Are they to beg, borrow or steal? I do not see any alternative, and I think it was the bounden duty of the Government, as the measures which they believed would give employment will not be capable of giving employment for several months, not to allow the Oireachtas to adjourn until it had brought in an amending Bill. It would carry the unemployed who are out of benefit over that very perilous period. It is just a question of connecting up what has been an exceedingly bad and critical period with what, I hope, will be a period of very much improved conditions. If there is no provision made for covering that gap, then the good work of the past two or three years may have been all in vain. We are very apprehensive as to the failure to take these obviously necessary steps in order to cover that very critical period. The Shannon scheme will, I believe, give employment to about 3,000 men, and it will also, I hope, help to give more employment elsewhere. But a long time will elapse before this state of affairs can come to pass. It is to make provision for that period that we are anxious, and I am very sorry that the Government have not done anything in the matter. I believe it will be necessary for the Dáil to assemble before November, but it would have been far better if the obviously necessary steps had been taken, instead of waiting for upheavals of one kind or another that may force the hands of the Oireachtas.

There is another question that I should like to touch on briefly. I do not want to trench on the ground of those representing the farming community who can speak with authority on the matter. But, as one who comes from the West, from a very congested area, and who has had numerous representations made to him in regard to the division of land, I should like to say a few words in respect of the administration of the Land Act of 1923. If we were within reasonable distance of giving full effect to that Act, we might hope very considerably to improve the economic conditions of the country as a whole, and of the congested districts in particular. Farmers in many of the congested districts are, at the best of times, just living above the border line of actual starvation, but in bad seasons such as that which we have just passed through, their condition is pitiable in the extreme. They are almost as bad as the unemployed worker who is not insured; they are certainly worse than the unemployed man who is covered by insurance. If it were not for the money sent home by Irish emigrants from the United States, Great Britain and elsewhere, the population of large parts of the congested districts would have been eliminated by poverty and starvation long ago. It is a misnomer to call many of them farmers. They are more like famished birds scraping for a miserable existence on barren unsympathetic soil.

It was no wonder, therefore, that the unsettled state of affairs immediately before and after the Truce caused a land war to break out with great intensity. The Government quickly saw the position and they took the necessary steps to deal with it by introducing the Land Bill. That Bill was, one might say, rushed through this House on the plea of urgency. We facilitated its passage at a very rapid rate, and I think we were justified in doing so, because we felt that the position was a very serious one, that the provision of land for the congests was of paramount importance, and that in order to prevent an agrarian revolution of a violent character, it was necessary to take rapid legislative steps to deal with the position. Two years have now passed, and it is amusing to hear the Minister for Lands and Agriculture announcing in the Dáil that after that period only 10,000 acres have yet been actually divided. Taking tenanted and untenanted land, he estimates that there are available for the relief of congestion and for landless men 1,200,000 acres net, allowing for all deductions. Out of that, after two years, only 10,000 acres have been distributed, notwithstanding the fiery agitation which the Bill was introduced to allay. Another 17,000 acres, he says, are vested in the Land Commission, and the remainder, or less than half the land available, is in various stages of negotiation, and a long way from being divided up.

There are undoubtedly difficulties in the way, but even allowing for these difficulties one might reasonably hope that there would be very much more progress made than has been the case. The Minister estimates that there are about 80,000 congests and that the land available will only relieve from 40,000 to 56,000, according to different estimates. These perhaps would be half congests and half landless men. Obviously, if only congests are dealt with, the number relieved will be considerably greater. But one of the reasons assigned by the Minister for the delay is the lack of a policy in regard to the division of the land. He asks: "Are we going to give it altogether for the relief of congestion, or are we to give part of it to landless men?" Obviously, the question of policy is one primarily for the Minister. If he has no policy surely to goodness it is time for him to come to the Oireachtas and ask them to define a policy for him. There is little use in telling landless men or congests who are clamouring for sufficient land to enable them to live, that the land is not going to be divided because the Government have not made up their minds how it is going to be divided, unless they show the country that they are making some attempt to evolve a policy in connection with it. The Minister actually gave it as his opinion that the Land Commission has been moving too fast, and that it would be better to go a little more slowly, perhaps, lest in eight or ten or twenty years, when the land is all divided, we may be sorry. I do not know how it could go much slower without coming to a dead stop. At the present snail's rate of progress it will be about twenty years before the land is divided, and all that time you are going to have absolute stagnation. There will be these periodical bad seasons in which large sums of money will have to be spent for the relief of the inhabitants of the congested areas. There will be no progress in regard to better systems of agriculture, better live stock breeding, dairying or poultry breeding. The Bill introduced during the last session and the previous session for the improvement of agriculture will lie dormant, as far as those areas are concerned. The question as to whether the land available should be used for the relief of congestion only, or for the purpose of creating more uneconomic farms, is a very big one and one that should receive very careful consideration, but it is time that it was considered and a policy decided upon. If I were a landless man I should go to the ends of the earth rather than accept an uneconomic farm and have to try and eke out the miserable existence that is derivable from it, such as that experienced by farmers in the West.

There are also mysteries surrounding the delay in the dividing up of land that was in the hands of the Congested Districts Board or the Land Commission for a long period of years. I do not know if there is very much land involved, but I do know in the county I come from of ranches being in the hands of the Congested Districts Board or Land Commission for years. They set the land for grazing purposes. In fact, they have turned into huge graziers, and there is no prospect of their dividing the land, although there are farmers all round with very uneconomic holdings. Then again, when a congest removes somewhere else and his land is divided up, the rent of the land is raised. The total rent paid by the people who get it is larger always than was paid by the one farmer when he had the lot himself. That is hardly the way to relieve congestion. This is one of the biggest problems of the day. It is one that is linked up with unemployment and one which affects the whole economic conditions of the country—this question of the failure to divide up land at a more rapid rate. We are told that the outdoor staff of the Land Commission spent a good part of their time last year dealing with the relief of distress. I suggest that a lot of that work would have been quite unnecessary if the congestion in these districts had been relieved by the division of the lands as provided by the Land Act. These are questions with which the Farmers' representatives can deal with very much more authority than I can. I am merely speaking from the personal experience of my native district. I sincerely hope that these Senators will, so far as they can, bring home to the Government the absolute necessity of speeding up the division of land and, above all, relieving congestion in the western areas.

I intend to say a few words about unemployment. I do not think, however, that Senator O'Farrell, speaking for the Labour Party, has been quite fair to the Government in the matter. I consider the Government have done an enormous amount for unemployment in this country. In fact, I can say that the Labour Party were born under a lucky star. If they had to carry through certain measures that this Government have passed, they would not do so in a generation. I can conceive the most violent opposition to this nationalisation of land if put forward by the Labour Party, or even to the nationalisation of electricity. But the Government have done it. These are essentially Acts for which the Labour Party should be most grateful and should express their gratitude.

With regard to the land question, I am under an obligation to Senator O'Farrell for raising the question, because I intended to do it with considerable diffidence. Now I have got his example, and I do so with more confidence. I cannot speak, and will not speak, as one of the Farmers' Party, with which on many questions I am associated, nor can I join with Senator O'Farrell in his plea that the Government should go more quickly in this policy of sub-division.

I wish to approach the matter, as far as I can, in a judicial and fair spirit. I opposed, as most Senators will recollect, the Land Bill with considerable vehemence, but, now that it is the law of the land and an accepted fact, with all its defects—and they are many—it has to be faced. I have considerable sympathy with the Government. That sympathy we must all extend to a well-meaning party or body of people who find now that they are faced with a difficult problem, the immensity and dangers of which I do not believe they realised two years ago. The statement of the Minister for Agriculture in the Dáil with regard to the question of sub-division, while not new to some of us— in fact, it is what we expected—is distinctly disquieting. During the passage of the Land Bill through the Seanad some of us at least prophesied that if all the land were taken and issued like sausages from a machine in similar sizes, you could not provide for more than half of the congests and landless men. We had no definite figures on which to work. We were working largely on an estimate, but the Minister has now definite figures which confirm our apprehensions that, do your best, you will only provide, as far as I can see, for about half the congests, and none of the landless men, or if you provide for numbers of landless men you cannot provide even for half the congests. We are not concerned with the exact dimensions of the problem, but we know sufficient to see that it is great. The Minister for Agriculture asks for the co-operation of all classes and he rather suggests that landless men in a district should sit still and see strangers brought in to the land that they had been told—by what right I have never understood—should be given to them. We must all obey the law, and I have got no sympathy with any body of men, landless or otherwise, who rise up and agitate in an unconstitutional manner against the operations of the law. It is asking for a very great measure of altruism and Christian fortitude to stand there and co-operate in putting migrants on the land just alongside one's home. Of course, if the land question is going to be dealt with according to the aspirations of the Government, that will have to be done.

With regard to the owners of substantial quantities of land, what are they to do? Are they also to welcome the parcelling out of the homes on which they have lived for generations and which they love and regard almost as sacred? Are they to stand still and silently while land which was sacred in their memories is to be divided under their eyes, and in many cases amongst people whom they honestly believe will not make good use of it? Is it suggested that they should be "dumb like sheep before the shearer and open not their mouth"? That is impossible. We are all human, and people cannot be expected to remain silent when dangers of that kind threaten the things they love. The substantial owners of property are now in jeopardy every hour. That is the position. After the statements and the perpetual questions that are asked in the Dáil, as to when this lot of land and that lot of land will be divided, they do not know when this terror may fall upon them. If it ended there, by simply taking "A" out of a place and putting in a number of others it would not perhaps matter very much. It is not that. It is the perpetual feeling of insecurity that is fatal to enterprise. When Senator O'Farrell talked about the development of agricultural schemes, surely he knew that all these works, such as better breeding, and all the examples in better farming, have come from people who own farms of a substantial size, and that in many cases that required fair capital expenditure, and even sometimes losses. These are the people whose land, as I say, and whose homes are now in jeopardy every hour.

On the question of resettlement, I am sure that no one is more anxious than the Government to make people who live in this country, big and small—and after all the big have a right to be there as well as the small—be contented and good citizens. Not only that, but the Government, I am sure, wish people to come back and occupy these places that are called demesnes and give employment. I am sure Senator O'Farrell knows that many of the supporters of the Labour Party would be the first to suffer by a division of the larger holdings. A large number of those people who left occupied what we call demesnes, for want of a better term, and paid a large amount of income tax, not necessarily income received from this country, but income arising from investments abroad. If people feel they are insecure, and unsettled, they will not stay. It is not so much the quantity of land taken from them. It is the question that they do not know where they are. It is the feeling of insecurity that is upsetting them far more than the amount to be taken. I was glad to see that a Farmer Deputy in the other House had the courage to say that the people who lived in the big places, what we might call the leisured class—and the leisured class does not necessarily mean an idle class—were an asset to the country. You could not expect a leisured class to stay unless they were allowed to enjoy what they own. As time goes on, and I think there is definite signs of a beginning by the recent county council elections, this leisured class must have a value in our public affairs. Anyone who served on a county council for years knows the difficulty of getting a large number of people who could give the attention and the time, as well as having the understanding and education required in these matters. In England a large amount of the work of the county councils is done by this resident class that we might call the leisured class. That is very valuable and very good work and it would be a benefit to this country to have a similar class here.

It is much more difficult to suggest to the Government what they are to do. Unfortunately they have got this Frankenstein monster that has been created, and pressure is being brought on them from every quarter that this lot and that lot of land should be divided into holdings to be taken from this and that person. It is an insoluble problem, and one has sympathy with people who are trying to do the impossible. It is impossible. Incidentally I do not see how the landless men have a status at all. According to the Land Act, all the land acquired compulsorily should be given to congests. According to the Act, you cannot take a man who has no land and give him land that has been acquired compulsorily. You can only give him land that has been acquired by agreement. I admit that at present a good deal of land is being acquired by agreement. That will not go on indefinitely. All I want to say to the Government is that this question will never be put right until owners are given a substantial assurance of secure possession. Perhaps there might be a preliminary survey and an assurance given to those who live here and employ labour that they will not be disturbed. It is all a question of dealing with a difficult situation, but faced with the facts, that appears to be one method by which it could be approached. I notice that one Farmer Deputy mentioned one case of a rich land holder who employed a large amount of labour, and said that no one would dream of touching him. Where are you going to draw the line? Are you to have scrutiny of each individual case and say: "He is doing the job right; he is below the line; he will go." That seems to be an impossible thing. Any attempt to judge by good service is more likely to be used as a lever of oppression. People must know where they stand, if you want to retain the leisured class of people who can be relied on to give as good service to the State as any other class.

I have great sympathy with what Senator O'Farrell said about the unemployed, but I feel that some suggestions of his were merely palliatives, perhaps necessary in certain acute circumstances, that would really do nothing permanently to solve this problem, which will become chronic unless a determined attempt is made to solve it. When we consider how dependent this country is on agriculture, and how dependent that industry is on climatic conditions, it is becoming increasingly desirable that we should look for alternative sources of employment. We have had two very bad seasons. This is a fairly good season, but on looking over the exports of agricultural produce recently for this year I was amazed by the figures. I have not seen the official return from the Department of Agriculture, but I have seen the official returns of the carrying companies. Any person who reads these figures will agree that we will be compelled to look for alternative sources of employment. The Government have done something. What they have done will not become operative for some time. They have given the country a promise of at least cheap power if it is largely availed of. I believe it will be largely availed of. In order to avail of it it is necessary that industries should be started in this country. I have had something to do with a few industries which have been started as a result of the duties that have been imposed by the Government. I find that even with the advantage that the Government has given by import duties it is still necessary to import key men with the technical knowledge requisite for the development of these industries. If that is the case what earthly chance have we of developing industry and giving employment except we have those tariffs? While it may be necessary to provide such palliatives as Senator O'Farrell has suggested the thing should not be done hurriedly if it is to be done safely. We should rather devote attention to a really well-thought out system of import duties to do away with unnecessary imports.

I am convinced that the people will not allow this country to be turned into a big cabbage patch. We are paying men what is commonly called the dole, or unemployment benefit, for doing nothing, but surely it is far better to devise some expedient to pay men to do something and to produce something. The payment to men for doing nothing is a restrictive tax on the man who is manufacturing or distributing goods in this country. The more the matter is thought out the more clearly imperative it is that some system of import duties must be thought out in order to cope with the question of employment, if the country is not to become a gigantic agricultural farm and if we are to export only what is commonly called our surplus population. There is another matter to which I wish to refer, and to which I ask the President to give some consideration. It may, perhaps, be a fad of mine, but I regard it as important. Last year and the year before, when considering a similar Bill to this, I suggested that instead of having the Vote for the Army included in this Bill an annual Army Act should be introduced. I feel that the principle of that is worth emphasising, and I am glad to see that the supremacy of the civil authority in this country is being more clearly recognised. Even within the last month, we have seen the army of one European country usurping the powers of civil government. I would ask the President to consider the suggestion I have made.

We on the Labour Benches do not complain of the attitude of the Government towards the great problem of unemployment. They have made an effort to enact Bills that provide ample scope for giving employment in the future throughout the country. What we do complain about is that the problem is at our doors. The enemy is there, if I may so describe it, because it is an enemy to the safety of the State to have thousands unemployed, and what we complain of is that no immediate remedy is at hand to cope with its attack. The adjournment of the Dáil for such a long period is, in our opinion, a most serious matter. The workless have been provided with no remedy except to fall back upon their own resources and except to develop their organisations with a view to pressing this matter. I think that the workers should not be forced into that position, with their backs to the wall, and the Houses of Parliament should not break up until some immediate methods are evolved to cope with this problem. It is a great danger, and I think we are sitting here with too much smug satisfaction, believing that the country is all right. I do not believe that we are safe from turmoil in this country if this problem is left untackled. If an enemy were at our gates to-morrow, all the resources of the nation and every effort of every individual would be pooled to meet that enemy. Money would be found, to the extent of millions if necessary, to cope with that danger. Fifty thousand men with their dependents might be starving in a locality, and, if that were so, we would soon find a means of relieving that starvation. One month's cooperation on the part of the people of the nation would relieve the situation, but fifty thousand and three times fifty thousand are scattered throughout the country, on hills and remote places, and, especially, in our large centres of population, and because they happen to be scattered units and not in a solid phalanx we ignore them. It is a dangerous situation. I say that the difficulties which the Government have overcome during the last four or five years may be small in comparison with the difficulties which they may have to face in the future if they leave this problem untackled. We may be asked what remedies can be provided, and we may be told that big schemes have been promulgated by the Ministry. These schemes are all to the good, and we have given them all the support which our attenuated numbers are capable of giving. We have given support to the Land Act. We heard a speech delivered to-day that might have been delivered, and that was, perhaps, delivered in substance when the Land Bill was passing through this House. We had a dissertation from Senator Sir John Keane regarding difficulties, but these difficulties would have been more appropriately the subject for discussion when the Bill was passing rather than as a contribution at the moment to help the Government. When the Bill has become a legislative Act, all the difficulties, turmoil and suffering that can be conjured up were made the subject of a mental picture, and now it would seem that in any execution of this Act the same difficulty and discouragement would be forthcoming. I would urge on the Ministry to ignore any discouragement that may come from any quarters and to grapple with the question boldly.

We are asked what the remedies are. We had a Committee sitting for an extended period on the question of trunk roads. Their findings and recommendations have, I understand, been reproduced, but we hear nothing about putting the plans into effect. That, in our opinion, would be one means of coping with the present situation. Another means would be the carrying out of small drainage schemes which are in the hands, to some extent, of various public bodies. We would urge upon the Ministry to bring pressure to bear on public representatives to put these schemes into force at once. Again, unemployment insurance should not be abandoned at this stage. I think that that is the most deplorable action of all on the part of the Government—to refuse to introduce a Bill for the continuation of unemployment insurance. £135,000 was granted this year, I understand, for the relief of unemployment. Four times that amount was granted last year when conditions were not nearly as bad as they are at present. We would urge on the Government, if they cannot introduce such a Bill, at least to increase the grant to one million, or such amount as may be necessary to tide over the period of difficulty that will exist between this and the autumn. Many of the suggestions which emanate, perhaps, from the Labour Benches may be looked upon as mere propaganda, but we come here in all seriousness, having regard for the safety of the State, to plead with the Government in the interests of the country and in the interests of the great mass of suffering people with whom we come in contact every day, and we urge strongly upon the Government to continue the session of the Oireachtas until something definite is done to relieve this greatest problem which has faced them since this State was established.

I did not intend to intervene in this debate, but I feel that I ought to do so, as the Government have had urged upon them the extension of their protective policy. I suppose, indirectly at all events, I may look upon myself as representing a number of individuals in the business community, and I feel very strongly on that matter. I am, of course, personally opposed to protection on principle because I believe the consumer always pays, and also because, in the case of this country, we cannot protect our principal industry which is the export of cattle. I realise that the difficulties of the Government are very great, and I am not disposed to criticise their protective policy, so far as it has gone, because it may be said to be more or less of an experimental nature. I would like, however, to say that many people have given a great deal of thought to this subject, and they hope that the Government will go slowly and not extend their operations in this direction except by gradual steps, if the policy is proved to be right. If that policy turns out to be right nobody would be more pleased than I. I hope the Government will go slowly because it is easy, in endeavouring to relieve conditions and to improve employment, to make the last stage worse than the first.

With a great deal of what has been said during that portion of the debate which dealt with the land question I am in absolute accord. In thinking out this problem I fail to see what suggestions have come from either side. The Labour Party gave a certain amount of blessing to the policy of the Government but urged them to proceed with greater haste. Having internal knowledge of the subject, I cannot imagine why they should proceed with greater haste. They have taken a great number of properties, they have appointed inspectors, and they have analysed the position, and having analysed the position they find themselves more or less up against a dead wall. They find that large numbers of landless men need accommodation, and in the same area there are uneconomic holders requiring more land. I think in this respect that the Latin proverb, festina lente, applies, particularly in regard to the division of land. I think, in the interests of Labour and in the interests of everybody else concerned with land, that the Government should move slowly. We all know, as Senator Sir John Keane said, the rights to land. The rights to land exist, I take it, more or less inherently in men because the right to land is a right to live. Every man has a right to live, and if land is so held as to deprive the community of a right to live, it is for the Government to intervene and see that the land will be so used that the community can live upon it. That, I take it, is the policy of the Government, and I believe that the Government is carrying out that policy in the wisest possible manner, and I suggest that they continue upon that course and go reasonably slowly. I do not think the Government have shown any desire, so far as I can see— and I would be sorry if they manifested such a desire—to disturb men in home farms, or demesnes, where the owners are using them well, tilling them and working them in the interests of the community. Every age had its land problem, and every age dealt with it in its own way. In the middle ages it was established that if a man had land and was using it uneconomically there was to be the option for the State to put in persons on portions of it, so that it should be used for the benefit of the community. That is a right inherent in governments.

Every country in Europe has its unemployment problem. There is a very pressing and urgent unemployment problem even in wealthy England, and the wisdom of the Labour Government, or the Government that succeeded it, has been unable to solve that problem. Yet we are told that with a stroke of the pen our State should ensure that there would be no unemployment. You cannot prevent unemployment in transitional periods like this. We should wait with some patience the advent of the schemes which have been passed through here, and which should be the means of finding employment.

The unemployed will be starving in the meantime.

Where is the starvation? If there is starvation in a district I am sure that schemes for the relief of distress would be immediately suggested by the Government, and I am sure they would immediately receive the approbation of both Houses of the Oireachtas. There was a suggestion of distress in various localities, but on investigation we were assured that the extent was magnified, and that as far as actual distress existed it was remedied. I hope that policy will be continued, as it is essential for the welfare of the people and the State. With reference to tariffs, Senator Bagwell suggested that we should go slowly. All wise men go slowly on the question of tariff reform. It is a big question, and should be thought out carefully, having regard to every aspect of it, and to its reaction on the business of the country. I have no doubt our Ministry of Industry and Commerce has done, and will continue to do this. I believe that all of us are giving our attention to the question of tariff reform, as it affects the industries with which we are connected. I have been connected all my life with land and I should like to feel, as Senator Sir John Keane suggests, that if I am using my land justly and properly, and giving employment, which is necessary, and giving reasonable comfort to the workers on the land, I had a reasonable assurance that I would not be disturbed. I feel sure that I have that assurance, and we do not need any other assurance than that any man who is working his land in the interests of the community will not be disturbed. That, I think, is the policy of the Government. They accepted many amendments from this House when the Land Bill was going through to give that security to every man, and also when opportunity occurs that every uneconomic holder will, as far as possible, be given a holding that is economic. I do not feel that a case for urgent new works has been made. It would be possible for a Government to legislate for an hour, or a week, or for six months, but this Government has to legislate not for to-day or to-morrow, but for years and years. They are trying to build up a prosperous State, and I think they have shown by every action of theirs that they are taking such steps as responsible men should take and that all reasonable action has been taken for the welfare of every individual in the Saorstát.

We have got from this debate a clearer knowledge of the facts than we had when the discussion started. I do not intend to delay the Seanad by any attempt to deal with what has been said. I thought that the President would be wiped out completely by the orators on this side of the House, and I was surprised that Senator Sir John Keane came to his assistance. I happen to come from a seaport town where things are not so well understood by persons who do not come in immediate contact with them as I do. Last year there was severe weather on the south coast. At that time it was argued that we ought to have a wireless station there, and it was tacitly understood that the Government would establish one. I have been approached to ask the Government if any steps are being taken to establish that so as to get in touch with vessels coming towards the land, and so on. Last year there was a general understanding that that station would be established at Hawlbowline or somewhere else for the purpose of range or distance finding. A vessel was lost last year, and it was suggested that the cause of the loss was that there was not one of those stations there. As a matter of fact everyone knows the vessel was lost purely and entirely through an act of God. Some such modern invention as I have referred to would be of great advantage, more particularly as regards life saving. I would like to know if anything has been done in that direction. I hope this is a matter which will have the attention of the Government before winter comes.

Another matter to which I wish to draw attention, and this, I think, is the fourth or fifth time I have done it, is with regard to coast defence, or coast watching, with the object of protecting fisheries, and preventing anything in the way of smuggling on the coast. If we were to go in for any extensive form of protection it would be more necessary than ever that these things should be looked into. Many of the coastguard stations are still left derelict, notwithstanding the troublous times through which we have passed, and some arrangement might be made with respect to them. I sent a suggestion to the Ministry for Industry and Commerce with regard to a means of protection which has been adopted by other countries, and that is the use of sea planes. They would not cost a great deal, and through their means the coast could be kept under general surveillance all the time. It is my privilege to suggest, and it is the prerogative of the Government to decide what they can do. It is my desire to satisfy the section of the public for whom I am speaking, and who want to know what progress has been made by the Government on the lines I have referred to.

It is a very sorry task after hearing about all the miseries and wretchedness of the country to bring in another question which is not concerned with material things. All I can say is that the life of the country is very varied, and in this body our business is to keep every side of it in its turn to the front so that nothing material to the good of the nation should be finally lost. I was one of a small deputation who went to the Government with a request for a sum of money to be given for the advance of Irish research. In the estimates there is an entry for a sum of £1,000 in aid of the expenses of the Royal Irish Academy "including publication of Celtic MSS." I understand the Government is still considering what grant it may make to Irish research, so for the moment we are not called on to offer gratitude or to indulge in reproach. We must ever keep ourselves in mind of how our obligations continually mount up, and of our deep responsibility as regards the history of our country. I will very shortly give you only two illustrations of the grave work that lies before us if we are to deserve the name of a nation. One of these duties has been forced on us by the terrible loss of Irish records in the Four Courts. The only reparation that can now be made is to carry out careful work in the British Museum, where there is an important collection of documents from the earliest times of the Normans and English in Ireland. All these should be examined, calendared, and where necessary, copied, so that we may secure all available records of the mixed races in Ireland, how they held their way, and how the national idea still prevailed. I believe that all historical scholars would unite in urging this recovery for Ireland of what may still be recovered.

Another urgent duty we owe, not to the invaders but to the people themselves. Here also students will have to refer to the wonderful collections of the British Museum. Standish Hayes O'Grady, in his great catalogue, devoted some 350 pages to noting down the mass of Irish writings and poems which had accumulated there. A further Irish catalogue, edited by Robin Flower, of the Museum, is now printed and will be published in September. He gathered together in a catalogue all the later collections which had been made, and which go over the whole period of Irish history. This catalogue is very remarkable in one respect. For the first time there has been a serious attempt made to open a new study by linking mediæval Irish with mediæval continental literature, and, in fact, with a yet wider world. This draws the history of the Irish people in the great current of world affairs. It is of the utmost importance when it goes out that it should be most carefully and most adequately studied. No history of Ireland can be written until these two sources, not to speak of others, have been examined. We want to know, therefore, not only what the Government is going to do, but how the universities are going to build up a new and invigorated Ireland. Also we have our own responsibility in the Seanad.

As for the Royal Irish Academy, I think a strong impression was created last year when a plain report of its varied work was circulated in the Seanad. No one who has examined its records and studied its finance can doubt that we did well to secure its services, but I wish that we could persuade it to abandon one odd practice. It prints its report in the early summer, but it is not circulated until the spring of the following year. We do not get it unless we go to search for it as an interesting antiquity. Is this an ingenious plan to conceal the very vital virtues of the Academy? I have only one last word to say. The record both of the learned in Ireland and of the people has never been written and never will be written until the wonderful mass of Irish material has been studied. To maintain the dignity of our nation is the business of every one of us, and can only be abandoned to our shame. May that at least never fall on us, whether we are of Irish descent or English, both welded now into one nation.

I desire to raise a matter of which I have given notice to the Minister. I have also informed him of the particular references that I intend to make. I ask for some consideration in dealing with this matter on account of the technical and legal questions that it raises. I may say that I have consulted legal authority on this matter, and that therefore I am not adventuring altogether on my own account. The matter of land purchase annuities has been mentioned several times in this House and outside it, but hitherto no explanation of the position has been given by Ministers. It might not be going too far to say that it has been evaded. At first it was difficult to discover what became of them, but it has become pretty clear that they are collected by the Government and paid over to the British Government. As they amount to some two and a half millions for the Free State, it is of the greatest importance to know whether or not that procedure is correct.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I should tell you, Senator, that the Minister for Lands and Agriculture has written to say that he cannot possibly be here to-day.

This is really a matter that concerns the Minister for Finance more than the Minister for Agriculture. I observe that the Minister for Finance is not here, but the President is here, and he is always prepared to speak on any subject. The section of the Land Act of 1923 which provides for the establishment of the purchase annuities fund states that: "All sums collected after March 31st, 1923, in respect of purchase annuities in repayment of advances made or to be made in the Free State in pursuance of purchase agreements under Purchase of Land (Ireland) Act, 1891, or any later Land Purchase Act, shall so far as not already paid into the Exchequer be paid into a fund entitled ‘The Purchase Annuities Fund,' to be established under the control of the Minister for Finance."

I will endeavour to explain in a few words the position as it appears to me, and I will ask the Minister to correct me if I am wrong. These annuities arose, as we all know, out of the various Land Acts passed by the Parliament of the United Kingdom and out of the loans for the purchase of their land by the tenant farmers of Ireland, beginning with the Bright Clauses in the Act of 1870, the Ashbourne Act and other successive Acts. I believe the outstanding loans amount to about £120,000,000, roughly, and interest about two and a half millions. These loans were not issued by Britain, but by the United Kingdom, of which Ireland was then a part. I am not concerned with the Land Act of 1923. The Irish tenants, large and small, paid the annuities to the United Kingdom Treasury, and the United Kingdom Government paid the interest on the loan.

The question arose after the Treaty and the setting up of the Free State as to who should receive the annuities and who should pay the interest. It would seem at first glance that whoever paid the interest should receive the annuities, but the matter is not so simple, and I will show that the opposite is the case. The Government of Ireland Act of 1920 was passed by the Parliament of Westminster in defiance of the people of Ireland and all their representatives from North and South. It imposed partition on Ireland and not a single Irish member voted for it. That partition was a purely English Act, and Ireland was in no way responsible for it. Ireland, not England, suffered by partition under the Act of 1920, and England must therefore bear the responsibility for every clause in it, and put up with any financial loss it may cause her. It is the penalty she has to pay for the cruel and arbitrary act of partition.

Section 26 of that Act contains the following provision which I quote verbatim:—"Purchase annuities payable in respect of land situate in Southern and Northern Ireland respectively shall be collected by the Governments of Southern and Northern Ireland, and the amounts so collected shall be paid into their respective Exchequers."

The next clause states:—"In each year a sum equal to the amount payable in that year in respect of purchase annuities shall be paid into the land purchase fund out of moneys provided by the Parliament of the United Kingdom." No doubt the reason for this generosity was that the English Ministers did not see any way for collecting these annuities once their tax collectors left the country, and did not anticipate finding a Government kind and generous enough to collect the taxes for them. It is clear from these clauses that the purchase annuities paid by the tenant, which formerly went to pay the interest and principal of the debt, were devolved and handed over to the Treasuries of Northern and Southern Ireland, and also that the Treasury of the United Kingdom undertook, for the first time, to pay the interest of the loan without receiving the annuities.

Now, with regard to this Act of 1920, all Acts passed by the Parliament of the United Kingdom before the Treaty are valid in the Free State till repealed by the Oireachtas. The 1920 Act has not been repealed, and is therefore in force, except in so far as it violates the Constitution. The question was brought before the Free State Courts in the case of John Cahill and others v. Attorney-General. We will see what occurred in that case. Mr. Justice Meredith was the Judge, and in this case of John Cahill and others v. Attorney-General, the Minister for Home Affairs and Minister for Defence (Saorstát Eireann, 1925, January and February, Compensation: Dub. Met. Police), the court "Held further that the Constitution of the Irish Free State must be recognised by the courts as an original source of jurisdiction; that since April 1st, 1922, the repeal by the British Parliament of an Act extending to the Irish Free State, including the partial repeal of the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, could not affect the question as to whether or not the Act continued to be in force in the Irish Free State; and, accordingly, that such (if any) of the provisions of that Act as are not inconsistent with the Constitution of the Irish Free State, were adopted into the code of laws of the Irish Free State under Article 73 of the Constitution."

It seems perfectly clear to me that until there is an appeal against that decision, and until it is reversed, the Act of 1920, except so far as it may infringe on the Constitution, is actually in force in Ireland at the present moment, and that therefore all the clauses I have quoted apportioning land purchase annuities to the Parliaments of Northern and Southern Ireland, are actually the law of the land in Ireland, and that the interest on the principal should not be paid by the Irish Parliament. That seems to me to be quite clear, and I do not think it could be disputed by anyone. It is quite clear that the only exception is in the case where any particular Act violates the Constitution. It is quite clear also that the clause apportioning the annuities to the Irish Free State and Northern Ireland cannot be considered to be contrary to the Constitution, and therefore is in force, as Judge Meredith held. It is true that the British Parliament did repeal the Act of 1920 in part, but not in whole. It was repealed too late to have any effect.

From the date of the Treaty probably, but certainly from the date of the passing of the Constitution, the British Parliament had no power to pass any Act affecting the Free State or to repeal any Act. Its power had ceased. The Constitution was ratified on the 5th December, 1922, and it was not till after that date that the British Parliament repealed the Act of 1920, alas too late to escape its liabilities. The Dáil has never repealed the Act of 1920. I maintain, therefore, that the land purchase annuities should be retained in Ireland and used for Irish purposes. Now, this means two and a-half millions a year for use in Ireland; it clears us of all our financial difficulties. Two and a-half millions is not the only gain to us. At present the British Treasury gets half of the income tax paid by Irish holders of this stock, and this would be automatically transferred to the Irish Treasury, which would also gain half the tax paid by British holders. Contingent advantages regarding the repayment on account of principal and the redemption of stock now standing at 60 and 64 need not now be entered into, but may be considerable.

A curious thing has happened in regard to this matter. I noticed in the newspapers that some questions were raised in the English House of Commons as regards the financial relations between England and Ireland. I need not quote all the answers that were given, but I will quote one which was given in regard to these annuities. This statement, which was made in the British Parliament by one of the English Ministers, seems to require explanation. Lord Clarendon said, speaking on behalf of the Ministers of the British Government:—

"The matter of land purchase annuities has been discussed between the respective Governments, but so far it had been utterly impossible to reach agreement. The Treasury had arranged a further conference at an early date with a view to reaching agreement, and that, failing, the matter would be referred to arbitration."

Certainly this gives me some hope. I would ask the Minister, if possible, to give some explanation as to what the real position is: whether it is still subject to consideration or not. Meanwhile, I understand that this money is being handed over to the British Government, although this question is supposed to be pending further consideration. I will not say any more on the question at present, as I ought perhaps to give the Minister an opportunity of replying to the points I have put forward.

If I intervene at this moment, it is to deal with this matter raised by Senator Colonel Moore. As I understand the Senator's case generally and the concluding portion of his speech, it was that we had a right to pay into our own Exchequer the whole of the Land Commission annuities that are now collected in this country in respect of the Land Acts passed previous to the Act of 1923. Well, if I am right in that, and that was my first assumption until later the Senator stated that we would be in a position to deduct income tax ourselves, I fail to see from whom we are to deduct income tax if we are to put the money into our National Exchequer.

You deduct income tax from the people who hold the stock.

I understood from the Senator we were not to pay the holders of the stock in England.

The British Government pay them, but we would pay the charge to the people who hold stock in this country and charge them income tax upon what was paid to them.

I am still at a loss to understand it. Let us take a citizen, a gentleman, say, of the name of O'Brien, who pays £500 Land Commission annuities. We place that £500 in the Central Fund. Now I am at a loss to know where we are to get income tax to deduct, say, in addition to that £500. We are not paying a dividend on the stock, the British Government is doing that, and will have to do that. It is expected that we must say to the British Government: "In respect to the dividends you pay to the Bank of England or to somebody else regarding land purchase funds—the Free State Government want 5/- in the £ on all of such sums, and you pay two-and-a-half million pounds." Am I right in that?

That is being done at present. Everyone who owns land stock has to pay money to the Irish Government and the British Government. I do not see any difficulty, and why not continue to do it? These matters are contingent matters. The real matter is why we should pay over land purchase annuities of two-and-a-half million pounds to the British Government. The others are small matters.

To put it more plainly, supposing for a moment the Duke of Northumberland gets £5,000 a year out of Land Bonds, and the British Government pays that out of their Treasury, that is, pays that £5,000 per annum to him—how are we to get the 5/- or 4/- in the £ income tax, considering that it is the British Government that pays him? I do not understand that part of it. I could deal with this question on the first issue if the income tax be left out of it, but I cannot deal with it if it be put forward that we are not only to enter into possession of the two or three millions of Land Commission annuities, but insist that the British Government should also hand over to us whatever income tax they had deducted in respect of the dividends paid out on Land Bonds.

Then let us for the sake of not entering upon a difficult financial question drop the question of the income tax.

I am in a difficulty as regards that, because the question referred to and answered by Lord Clarendon is really a question dealing with income tax, but income tax of a different sort to that which is suggested by the Senator. Now, dealing with the matter as if it were a question apart from the recovery of income tax from the British Government in respect of dividends paid on Land Bonds and coming back to the Act of 1920, I may say that the Act of 1920 is nonoperative. Whenever it was put into operation it was to suit the convenience of whatever Party happened to operate it at the time. The people in Ireland did not accept it but they accepted some of the machinery by which, for example, they elected the necessary number of members to constitute the House of Commons of what was called Southern Ireland. But now I think it would be impossible for any person no matter how well versed he might be in geography to be able to point out what part of Ireland was Southern Ireland in so far as a political division of the country was concerned. As such the Act is unrecognised and unrecognisable, and not in force, and where it is in force it is in respect of such provisions as are specially mentioned in connection with the Treaty.

Only in respect of Article 10 of the Treaty which deals with the pensions of civil servants and police, and some other Articles which I do not recollect just now, where particular mention is made, is the Act of 1920 recognised. If we were to recognise Section 26, which is the one that the Senator has referred to, might it not be put up to us that we should also recognise Section 23, which stipulates that we contribute £10,000,000 per annum to imperial expenditure? I do not know that there is any citizen outside a mental hospital who would suggest that. As regards the reference that has been made to the judgement of Judge Meredith in a Dublin Metropolitan Police case, in which it was held that certain provisions of the Government of Ireland Act, if not inconsistent with the Constitution, and if not repealed by the Oireachtas, might still be in force in Saorstát Eireann, that judgement is quite irrelevant to the question, even if it is sound in law. I am not questioning its soundness. The Irish Free State (Agreement) Act, 1922, provided that Orders in Council might be made for giving effect to Article 17 of the Agreement for a Treaty. Under these powers the Transfer of Functions Order, 1922, was made, Article 4 of which provided that purchase annuities should be paid into the Exchequer of the Provisional Government and that out of the Exchequer there should be paid into the Irish Land Purchase Fund or account or other appropriate fund or account, such sums as might after the day of transfer be required to discharge the liabilities of those funds and accounts in respect of interest on stock or advances issued or made in connection with land purchase and to meet the corresponding sinking fund charges.

Where does that come in?

Article 4 of the Transfer of Functions Order, 1922. By the same article the administration of the Land Purchase Account was transferred to the National Debt Commissioners. These arrangements for payments held good until the passing of the Land Act, 1923, Section 12 of which provided that purchase annuities in repayment of advances made in Saorstát Eireann in pursuance of purchase agreements under the Purchase of Land (Ireland) Act, 1891, or any later Land Purchase Act other than the Act of 1923, should be paid into the Purchase Annuities Fund, and that there should be paid thereout, to the credit of the Land Purchase Account or the Irish Land Purchase Fund, as the case might be, an amount equivalent to the purchase annuities accruing due in respect of advances. Judge Meredith's judgement in no way affects the provisions of the Land Act, 1923. As regards Lord Clarendon's statement in the House of Lords, it may merely be mentioned that the question at issue is not whether the purchase annuities are to be paid over to the British; but whether the Free State is entitled to deduct income tax on so much of the annuities as represents dividends on Land Stock issued for land purchase. If Senator Moore's motion were accepted, we would be breaking our own laws and our solemn agreements. It will be possible to raise the whole question of Land Purchase Finance when the ultimate financial settlement is under discussion; but Senator Moore's suggestion of raising the question would not be wise unless it be desired to scrap the Treaty and go back to the Government of Ireland Act, and also repeal part of the Land Act.

I should like, before we pass away from things of the body, to refer to the things of the mind, which Senator Mrs. Green spoke so ably about. What I want to say will, I hope, be pleasant both to Senators and to the Government. I want to thank the Government gratefully for the assistance that they gave to the great Celtic Congress which is now being held in Dublin, where our friends and fellow Celts from the Isle of Man, Brittany, Cornwall, Wales, and Scotland, are assembled. We tried to entertain them, and show them what the Celtic Ireland means. I think Ireland intends, and I am sure that the Government would also like to see, Ireland assume the hegemony of the entire Celtic races of the world. I think she is in a position to do that. The Government has given us some assistance towards entertaining our friends from abroad, and before this discussion closes I should like to thank them.

One other thing. The Government has given a grant for this year, and I hope it may be continued, of £600 to the Amharclann Gaedhealach, or Irish Theatre. I want to assure the Government that that money has not been thrown away. When our friends from across the sea saw the three plays produced at that Theatre last week, they were wildly enthusiastic. Professor Gruffydd, of Wales, Sir John Morris Jones, Mr. A.O. Roberts, who is at the head of the dramatic movement in Wales, and, above all, a most extraordinary young man of ability—Mr. Saunders Lewis, a playwright and a producer of plays himself—said they would give any money in Wales if they could have a producer who could produce for them plays in the same way that our producer, understanding Irish, produced Irish plays in the Abbey Theatre. That shows that the money spent by the Government has not been thrown away, and I desire most cordially to thank them for the assistance given.

Many subjects have been dealt with in the course of this discussion. Senator O'Farrell dealt with questions vitally affecting the people whom we represent. He dealt with the position of the working classes who are unemployed and in distress at present. He dealt at length with the measures taken by the Government with a view to providing useful employment. He also dealt with the Land Act, which gave the Government power to deal with the provision of land for people with uneconomic holdings, and suggested that the Government should expedite the distribution of land to congests. In dealing with the question of unemployment, he expressed the surprise of the representatives of the working classes that the session was about to conclude, and an adjournment take place for a period of about four months, in which no effort would be made to meet the claims of the people who are unemployed, through no fault of their own, and have no means of subsistence. Senator Sir John Keane, in criticising some of the remarks of Senator O'Farrell, said that the Labour Party ought to express gratitude to the Government for all they have done for them. We are grateful for small mercies. On every occasion that the Government introduced legislation for the benefit of any section of the community, they got the whole-hearted support of Labour Senators.

Senator Sir John Keane spoke about the difficulty of providing sufficient accommodation on the land for the congests. He stated that the Minister for Agriculture had discovered that there was not sufficient land to go round and provide economic holdings for everybody who required them. If the Government are able to provide accommodation for 50,000 congests, taking an average of six in a family, that would mean that at least 300,000 would be provided for. Senator Sir John Keane, as usual, took up the "Die-hard" attitude and suggested that the people who had the land were not going to give it up without a fight and could not be expected to do so. He suggested that it would inflict hardship on some people who had land if it were taken from them. He conveniently forgets that when the people who hold some of this land got that land they inflicted a good deal of hardship on those who were dispossessed. He conveniently forgets that the emigrant ships were filled with the unfortunate people whose land was stolen from them to be given to some of those who hold it now. He says these people will not give up the land without a fight. That is as much as to suggest that they are not prepared to accept the law of the land. If they are not prepared to do that—and they are supposed to be the great upholders of law and order—they cannot find fault with the poor ignorant, starving people if they do not obey the law in every respect.

Senator Bennett, to my mind, struck the right note to-day. He said the right to the land was the right to live. The right to work is the right to live in our case. The farmer lives by toiling on the land. The wage-slave has only his flesh and blood to offer to enable him to live. He is denied the right to work at present, because he cannot find work, and, at the same time, is denied the right to the means of subsistence.

I have read very carefully the discussions which took place in the Dáil on this matter, and I was extremely surprised at some of the statements made, and especially at the attitude taken up by Ministers on this unemployment question. We are not pleading for doles. We are pleading for work for those who are able and willing to work. It is a God-given right for every man to have the means of providing for those dependent upon him. From the manner in which some people talk about doles and sneer at unemployment, one would imagine that the unfortunate unemployed were not made of the same clay as other people and had not the same love and regard for their wives and families. Very few members of this House or of the Dáil ever had the experience of being unemployed. It is only those who have had the experience who know the state of mind of an unfortunate human being who is unemployed and has a wife and children dependent upon him. It is said that nothing can be done; that the Government have done all they could. I say that the State owes a duty to every man able and willing to work to provide him either with employment or the means of subsistence. I say it is a disgrace and a shame that this House should rise for the holidays without something being done to provide for these people. I am not saying that the Ministers have not earned their holidays. I am not saying that the Deputies have not earned their holidays. They have worked hard and they have done their duty fairly well. But there are no holidays for the unfortunate, starving unemployed. Their holiday consists of listening to hungry children crying for bread that is not there.

Statistics have been prepared to prove that unemployment is not as bad as we allege, and inspectors of the Department of Agriculture have been sent around the country to make inquiries. I know as much about labour conditions in this country as any of these inspectors; and I say, without fear of contradiction, that during my experience extending over 25 years in the working-class movement unemployment was never so bad as it is to-day. That unemployment does not exist only amongst the chronic unemployed. In the city and county of Dublin there are people unemployed now who were scarcely ever unemployed before— decent, respectable, honest citizens, who only want to be allowed to work in order to enable them to provide for those dependent upon them.

I seriously suggest to the President that even at this late hour some steps ought to be taken to deal with this matter. A good deal has been done, and we are grateful for it, but a good deal remains to be done. I am not one of those who advocate that men should be paid for doing nothing. I know that it leads to demoralisation. I know that decent, honest workmen would prefer honest toil to being compelled to await in a queue outside the Labour Exchange. But when the honest toil is not there for them, some steps ought to be taken to provide them with the means of subsistence without making actual paupers of them. We will be told that the Poor Law is there, but the manner in which the Poor Law is being administered is not satisfactory to the decent unemployed people I have in mind.

The President said there is nobody starving. That is not my experience. There are many hundreds of families in this city actually starving who are too proud to beg. They will not look for Poor Law relief. The appeal we have made to the Government is that these people should get unemployment benefit. The Minister for Industry and Commerce said that if any more benefit is paid it becomes a charity. Probably it is a charity. All we ask is that it should be extended over this period. We believe that conditions are improving, and that with the steps the Government are taking unemployment will not be so great in a few months' time. In the meantime, what is going to happen? We think that there should be a further extension of the benefit period in order to tide over the coming few months. At the end of that period we all sincerely hope there will not be any further necessity to appeal for an extension of the unemployment benefit. It is not pleasant for any decent man or woman who is unemployed to be looking for this benefit. There are some people, of course, who would be content to live on it all their lives. But people willing to live on others are not confined to the working classes. There are great numbers in the community who are prepared to do that.

I should like to say one word with regard to the question of army pensions. I am glad that the President is here, because he did everything possible to assist in any case which I brought forward. In connection with the Army Pensions Act several cases have been brought to my notice where young men, who believe they were entitled to a pension and came within the provisions of the Act, have been turned down without any sufficient reason being assigned. According to the Act, in order to be eligible for a pension, a person should have had pre-Truce service, and, in addition, National Army service. There are a number of men whom I am satisfied complied with these conditions and whose claims for pensions have been turned down. I just mentioned the matter in order that the President might have an opportunity of looking into it, so that there will be no complaints in future.

I should like to express the disappointment that is felt that nothing is being done in connection with the drainage of the Barrow. I was on a deputation last March to the late Minister for Industry and Commerce, and we were led to believe that the scheme for the drainage of the Barrow would be carried out in a very short time. That deputation was composed of some of the biggest ratepayers and most influential men in the district. Apparently we were under a wrong impression, that the scheme was complete and that work could be undertaken with the old plans. We are now told that a new scheme is necessary, that Professor Meyer-Peter had investigated the whole matter and found that the schemes in existence were incomplete and that it would be necessary to go into all the details before the work could be begun. Some time ago, however, on the Estimates, the Minister for Finance stated that there was £50,000 appropriated, and that has raised hopes again in the breasts of the inhabitants of the flooded areas. Now the debates in the Dáil would lead us to believe that there is some hitch because the inhabitants of the flooded areas are not willing to bear a proper share of the expenses. The new County Council of Queen's County met yesterday, and, contrary to what has been said here, they put it clearly and unanimously that, in the interests of the flooded areas, they were quite willing to assume a proper share of the contribution that will be necessary towards the expenses.

How much is that?

That is to be ascertained. I am sure the President, or the Minister responsible, will set up machinery to ascertain it. I was rather criticised for offering at that time a pound for a pound towards the expenses. It has been said that we are getting cold about that offer. That offer, however, has not been repudiated. It was made by the Barrow Drainage Committee, which has been working for the last forty years, and it never lost any opportunity to put forward a claim for the Barrow drainage. Doubt was expressed whether we would be able to bear that amount. Originally, of course, the expenses were supposed to be a great deal less than those now estimated. If the Minister would meet the Barrow Drainage Committee they would suggest means by which that offer could be substantiated. At all events, what the Barrow Drainage Committee and the councils want is some actual work before the winter, and this is very necessary, because the river has got into a very bad state and the prospects for the coming winter are appalling. The district concerned becomes an inland sea, as anyone who passes on the railway can notice. People are turned out of their houses, and the general health of the district is very much impaired.

We suggest that the Minister in charge should meet a deputation of the people mainly interested and take suggestions from them as to how best to ameliorate the conditions for the coming winter. As the plans are not quite ready these suggestions could be carried out without interference with the main scheme. The river is practically blocked for a few miles below Portarlington to within a few miles of its source. These obstructions according to Professor Meyer-Peter can be cleared away. The work could be undertaken without interfering with the main scheme and, in fact, it will be work that will be necessary anyhow. There are many unemployed and great distress prevails in the district and it would be a good thing if we could induce the Minister to take some steps to alleviate this distress, and ensure that the people during the coming winter will not be turned out of their houses to the same extent as they were in the past two winters. Professor Meyer-Peter says that a certain amount of work could be carried out, and, if the Minister will only meet the people mainly interested, I am sure that an arrangement could be come to by which this work would be carried out, the people protected, to some extent at all events, against the terrible flooding which has taken place in the last few years, and unemployment relieved.

One or two matters have been raised in the discussion on this Bill which refer to matters under the control of my Department and to which, I think, I should be allowed to reply. The question of unemployment has been raised. I do not at all wish to doubt the sincerity of anything said by any of the Labour representatives, either here or in the other House, on this question. I am quite certain that it is even a greater source of difficulty to them than it has been to my Department, although there has been no question so prominently before my Department or, through me, before the Government as this. I do not think that the Labour representatives here have properly appreciated the Government's attitude towards this question. I would just refer to a few remarks made by Senator Cummins, not that I want to make debating points, but to show, if he has used these words seriously, that he has not a proper appreciation of this great problem, as he has magnified it. He spoke of leaving the workers with their backs to the wall, and he went on to refer to the sum of money voted, which he stated was £135,000, for relief schemes. His comment, in addition to that, was that last year four or five times that amount was voted when the situation was not half as bad as it is at present.

If all these statements of the Senator were accurate it would mean that the Government had failed in its duty in dealing with this problem, but I want to take him at his word. £135,000 additional has been voted this year by way of Supplementary Estimate to a sum of £115,000 in the ordinary Estimate. That is a quarter of a million. This time last year a sum of £250,000 was also voted, and before Christmas that sum was increased by an additional quarter of a million, in view of the extraordinarily bad season and in view of the very definite distress in the congested districts. Taking the situation now, so far as the money voted is concerned, the sum actually voted, between £115,000 on the first Estimate and £135,000 recently voted, is exactly the same as that voted last year. The Senator's reference to three or four times the amount is inaccurate. The problem, according to the Senator, was not half as bad last year as it is now. That is just exactly why the Government made its decision on certain detailed information it had at hand. I do not want to keep very definitely to numbers, as it is impossible to get people to register, even people who may get unemployment benefit for a period. I do not pretend to any degree of accuracy as regards last year's total of unregistered agricultural workers, but, about this time last year, we were faced with about 35,000 unemployed in the towns and about 35,000 unemployed agricultural labourers in addition.

When you speak of unemployment amongst agricultural labourers you include some fraction of the 40,000 to 50,000 people who have been provided with labourers' cottages and an acre of land at 1/6 per week, and who are counted unemployed, because they are sometimes unemployed beyond what they can get to do about their own cottages. You also include a type of man who is 50 per cent. of the numbers engaged on the road schemes, and that is the small farmer who does not find sufficient employment for himself on his own land. Taking in both of these classes, you had 35,000 agricultural labourers and 35,000 workers in the towns unemployed last year. Facing that position, the decision come to by the Government was that there was necessity for relief schemes, and for an extension of unemployment insurance benefit. This year we had to take the view of the situation as it met us in June. On my reports, which have been much criticised but not much disproved, we came to a conclusion which is obvious to anyone who has gone about the country, that there was not anything like the same unemployment in agricultural areas. Causes have arisen this year which did not occur last year.

Small drainage schemes in country districts have not been able to find sufficient local labour, and it has to be migrated from the towns to engage in these small schemes. Certain officials of the Department of Agriculture produced reports which have been much discussed in the Dáil, and ventilated in the Press, and they showed a decidedly good situation as far as the country districts are concerned. These reports were independent of the reports backed by the Minister for Local Government from his home help officials with regard to rural areas. The situation this year was that, while there was considerable unemployment in the towns, though not as much as last year, there was not a fraction of the unemployment in the rural areas. The Government had to face the other side of the picture, and to see what additional provision was required by the way of relief of unemployment. They found themselves in this position: There had been a Budget statement made by the Minister for Finance in April, and it represented the general housekeeping account of the year. It was a statement which was well received, and regarding which all parties seemed to be satisfied. Relief had been granted in a number of cases, and on the expenditure side of that there were sums of money to be expended this year, some of which was hurried-forward expenditure so as to meet the unemployment situation, which expenditure could, if the Government had liked, been postponed for a year.

These sums of money total over two million pounds. I have given out the litany of these sums several times, and I can give them again if desirable. A sum of £250,000 went for relief schemes and £330,000 towards housing. That is only a subsidy and a fraction of the amount to be spent. It is backed by the statement of the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Local Government, that a supplementary estimate will have to be introduced in the Autumn for new houses. There is a sum of £400,000 on the vote for Public Works, for new buildings to be started this year, and there is a sum of £400,000 between the Local Loans Vote and the item "improvement of estates." There is included, not in the Estimates, but on the Central Fund by way of local taxation, a sum of £770,000 road money. That will be almost entirely spent in the financial year; the expenditure of it is already commenced, so that you have the situation in opposition to last year's situation, that you have not the same rural unemployment problem.

You have admittedly a serious unemployment problem so far as the towns are concerned. Against that you have this provision of £2,000,000, or really £2,200,000. That money will circulate through the country this year and will give employment. The Government decided that there was no necessity for an extension of unemployment insurance money. The unemployed would benefit by their relief schemes. The £135,000 voted here recently is more than would be required to extend the insurance unemployment benefit for the next four months. For the present benefit year it was decided to incur that greater expense, for there is undoubtedly a feeling throughout the country that it is much better to spend money on relief work than to spend a lesser amount of money by way of unemployment insurance extension. Backing for that statement has been received from Labour representatives everywhere—that work was preferable to maintenance without work. Consequently we were acting in accord with what we had heard from every quarter, and we thought money for relief schemes would be better than money for unemployment insurance schemes. Some complaint has been made here, as it was last year, that it is not right to stop unemployment insurance; but the scheme is not being stopped. What is being stopped is an extension of it at this period. You cannot say that it is stopped, when 23,000 people are still in receipt of benefit, as they are according to the unemployment insurance inspectors. What has happened is that we have decided that there is no call for an extension of it.

Senator Farren referred, with a certain amount of pessimism, to the amount that would be sufficient to tide people over the next couple of months. Taking it that the next couple of months are to be the critical months in this regard, surely relief schemes that are going to put into circulation an extra sum of £135,000 ought to be more than sufficient to tide over those couple of months?

For what percentage of the unemployed would this sum of £135,000 provide relief?

I did not say that it would provide for even all the enumerated unemployed, but if we take the exhausted claims, which at present number about 13,000, they could be employed for a considerable period by the expenditure of this sum of £135,000, and remember that the question put leaves out of consideration altogether the speeding-up of all the other expenditure which is estimated at £2,200,000. That expenditure is growing day by day, and will have reached its maximum very soon. This is the best season for doing drainage work, and in connection with the drainage schemes men are being taken on every day. The situation this year is not half as bad as it was last year, and this year more money, by way of ordinary votes, has been voted than last and put into circulation. So far as we can gather from the figures put before us, the problem is not near as bad now as it was this time last year.

Senator Love referred to the question of coast-watching and direction-finding by wireless. A great many months ago a unanimous resolution was passed by the Seanad on this question. On two occasions I had made preparations to come before the Seanad to make a statement on that matter, but in the meantime the situation changed, and I was waiting until the matter could be said to be somewhat more stable. A decision has not yet been arrived at on it. We have been in communication with the authorities in England on the matter, and as a result of these communications it is quite clear that if we were to charge here the charge which is definitely being paid in England, we could not recover more than one-tenth or one-fifteenth of the expenditure necessary for establishing and equipping stations for direction-finding by wireless. On the other side they still regard this whole matter as being in the experimental stage. Even on the other side, they are not prepared to incur very great expenditure in connection with this matter or to regard it as settled. I cannot say that we have advanced very far as regards this matter, but I would ask the Seanad not to take it that because no statement has been made that their resolution is not being attended to. Attention is being paid to it, but no final decision has yet been come to.

Senator Love also referred to the question of coast-watching. The Senator seemed to direct his attention to the question of coast-watching against smugglers. He referred to our lifesaving stations, and in referring to that I thought I discerned a hint that the cost of watching the coast against smugglers might be a very cheap service. Of course, no conclusion is to be drawn from the fact that the Vote for this service is a small one, because the life-saving service is almost entirely a voluntary one. The expenditure that has to be met in that way is very far from what it would likely be if we had to incur the expenditure of having a series of stations equipped such as the old coastguard stations used to be for protection against smugglers.

Senator McEvoy alluded to the Barrow. The Barrow is no immediate concern of mine, but, as I made a certain statement about it last year, I just wish to allude to it again. I had thought for the moment that the Senator was again going to stand over the pound for pound offer, but all we got was a statement that Leix was prepared to bear its proper share. Senators must realise, from reading the reports made out by Professor Meyer-Peter, that there never had been plans, really completed plans, for the drainage of the Barrow, but there had been certain reports. There had been certain uncompleted schemes, but nothing of such a nature that could be handed to a group of engineers to enable them to start on the drainage of the Barrow. It is the intention of the Government to proceed with the drainage of the Barrow. The Government think that more difficulty is likely to arise from the contributing areas than from any technical difficulties in the carrying out of the drainage of the Barrow itself. Money will undoubtedly be spent on the drainage of the Barrow this year— not very much, but a certain amount of money can be spent.

Professor Meyer-Peter has been criticised as not knowing Irish conditions sufficiently. One remark he made to me about the Barrow showed a proper appreciation of the state of this country. He asked —and, of course, this was not taken seriously, it was treated as an aside— if he was to project what he called the political embankments along the Barrow at first. He was asked what political embankments meant, and he said certain heaps of earth such as could be thrown up and will satisfy the public, more or less encourage the Government, and not do the drainage of the river any harm afterwards. He was encouraged not to project any political embankments. I understand that the Office of Public Works has at its disposal, and intend to spend, a certain amount of money on the type of preliminary to which Professor Meyer-Peter referred, so that there will be sufficient done this year to give the inhabitants of that water-logged area hope that the problem will be definitely tackled, and that the work will be started, as I promised last year. If the Senator thinks that there is to be anything gained by the Barrow Drainage Committee meeting the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Finance he would be only too glad to arrange to meet them. I do not think that there is much more to be said. If the Committee would simply write up and say they have assurances that the offer of the contribution of pound for pound still holds the field, that would satisfy the Parliamentary Secretary, and expedite the work very much.

Question—"That the Bill be now read a Second Time"—put and agreed to.
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