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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 3 Jun 1926

Vol. 7 No. 5

INCREASE OF RENT AND MORTGAGE INTEREST (RESTRICTIONS) BILL, 1926—SECOND STAGE.

Question proposed—" That the Bill be now read a second time."

I think we may say that this Bill represents almost the last vestige of war control. Whatever we may think about war control, or the control that was necessary during the war, I think most of us will agree it is desirable that the earliest opportunity should be taken to rid ourselves of the various and many embarrassments, mainly of our economic life, that control imposes, but unhappily in this matter of rents we have not been able to do so. Under the policy now announced by the Government we will suffer a further three years of control, and to judge by certain utterances from the Opposition in the Dáil, if at the end of three years they happen to be in power we may be subject to a further interminable period of control. It is hard to see at this late stage who is served by this control. I think the judges who have to administer and pronounce upon this Act say it is intolerably complicated. On more than one occasion our judges have said that the complications of these various controls are most obscure. No doubt lawyers have prospered from these Acts. They take advantage of Acts of these kind, as they always do when legislation becomes complicated and opportunities for litigation are likely to arise. But we must address ourselves to the general principle, and I think it will be admitted by all that control arises out of conditions of scarcity. What, after all, are the conditions of scarcity as applied to our economic life? They simply arise from a shortage of supply in relation to the demand, and the cure for that has been long established. In fact, ever since people have existed and civilisation has been known, there has been only one cure, and that is to allow natural forces to operate.

Undoubtedly shortage of supply leads to increased prices, and increased prices lead to the attraction of capital to take advantage of these prices. Capital is apt to be caught by booms. Then there is an over-supply and prices readjust themselves. That is the simple fact. Still, it requires to be recognised in this present case that the law of supply, allowed free play, will meet the demand in due course. Of course, in the initial step, once decontrol is put into operation, it is an inevitable fact that high prices will follow, and you have to face it on every occasion. They had to face these difficulties, which were not quite the same, but analogous, in England. They got back to the gold standard successfully after a certain amount of dislocation. We will also have to face dislocation here to get back. I am puzzled for the moment, and I was also attracted, by an argument advanced by the leader of the Opposition in the Dáil, where he said: "What have people who built houses before the war got to complain about? If they had invested their money in gilt-edged securities and in railway shares they would not even have got the increases that are now permitted under this Rent Restrictions Act." If you look no further and think no further that sounds plausible, but apply that to the general doctrine of capital, and I think most of us in this House, whether we like it or not, will be forced to admit that capital must remain part of our economic system, and the experience of other countries which tried to do without it is not an encouragement to us to pursue it as a policy.

Capital lives on averages, whereas certain socialist politicians will say: "Oh, no, where capital is losing we do not complain. We only complain where capital has its rewards." Of course that doctrine is very simple. It is the socialist's doctrine of "Heads I win, and tails you lose." But what will become of capital? We all know that capital is a shy bird. It is fluid and will migrate. It will not remain and allow itself to be exploited in any community where that doctrine exists. Capital must be allowed to reap the reward of high prices and scarcity, and at the same time it has, and always will have, very heavy loss from adverse conditions. It is only on the average that capital will continue to be employed. It raised my hopes very much regarding the future for capital in this country when I read that the Minister for Justice made the remark that he himself did not understand what was meant by the word "profiteering."

The understanding of this fundamental economic doctrine is the only cure for profiteering; a period of high prices is an overdose to the disease itself. As soon as you get high prices you will get the corrective applied, and these high prices are a preliminary to falling prices. If that were understood we would hear less nonsense talked about the iniquities and the extortionate action of so-called capitalists. When we come to apply these principles to the Bill itself you may ask, and it was said also in the other House, what is there in these various control measures that prevents houses being built now, or, rather, what reason is there that any more houses should be built? There is a reason, and the main reason —very often the best reason is not obvious—is a psychological reason. Capital feels that it is being limited and restricted in the free play of its operations by this Act, and as long as these measures are there capital will not come to the aid of the housing problem.

It is only when it feels that this control is removed and that the open play of economic forces is allowed, that capital will continue to operate freely. Then also decontrol will lead to fluidity in respect of those persons who let houses. There is a certain number of people comparatively well-to-do who can pay higher rents than they are paying now and who are sitting—I do not blame them, for the law enables them—whereas they should be competing and offering a market for new houses, which would undoubtedly be built, and possibly would be built with the assistance of labour at economic prices. Then again it would encourage letting against sale. We know perfectly well what happens in these cases. Capital does not allow its hands to be tied down. There are various avenues for it. There is no law which can prevent it being exploited. A house becomes vacant and the owner refuses to let that house. He sits on it until he can sell it. That will go on as long as the rent restrictions continue. Of course a free market would also encourage speculation. We hear a lot talked about speculation, but speculation is a very good thing sometimes. Civilisation and progress depend on speculation and taking risks. It is the essence of capital to take risks.

To return to the measure itself, I should like to deal with what I regard as the prominent blemishes of the Bill we are now asked to pass into law. First of all there is the notice to quit. I think most members of the House are aware of the fact that purely under a technicality the formality of not serving a notice to quit when a new agreement was made invalidated the agreement and tenants have largely—I do not say entirely—taken advantage of that technicality to obtain a refund of the rent overpaid. I would like to say that as far as the information at my disposal goes thirty per cent. of the tenants have a sufficiently sympathetic understanding of the landlord's difficulties—I was going to say they had the decency, but I do not think it indecent to take advantage of what the law allows—as not to avail themselves of that blemish, and they continue to pay these increased rents which otherwise, on a technicality of the law, they would not have to pay. In England that matter was put right three and a half years ago. From December, 1922, that injustice was removed. Yet it has been allowed to continue here for over three years, and all the time tenants have been taking advantage of it. By the time this Bill is passed into law every tenant who intends to take advantage of that will have done so, and it will be somewhat of an empty gesture to stop it then. Then as regards the rates, I have a certain sympathy with the provision which enables rates to be charged on empty houses which are deliberately being held up for sale because the landlord does not want to let them, but there are certain houses, especially in the country, where such a provision has been a great injustice. There are many country houses, what we call lesser demesnes, of considerable size but not of much value. They cannot be let, not even to a suitable tenant, and they certainly cannot be let to a tenant who could keep them in the manner in which they had originally been kept. They are a drug on the market, and many of these houses pay rates though the owner cannot afford to live in them and a tenant cannot be found. I am hoping that the Minister will see his way to accept an amendment which will go further than the Bill on the Committee Stage to meet that case.

With regard to the classification of premises, it has been held that so long as somebody sleeps in even one room of a business premises, that house, although ninety per cent. of it and all its externals, in every reasonable respect, is a business premises, is still held to be residential, and only the lesser increases of rent are permitted. That seems unjust. I think the question as to whether premises are mainly business or residential should be a matter of fact upon which the courts should be allowed to pronounce and where it is proved that a person is sleeping mala fide in the house to give it a residential character, the Act should not be allowed to operate. With regard to sub-letting, one tries to restrain one's feelings as to the injustice of that. You take a house, and you put in a tenant, who can perpetuate all the iniquities of so-called profiteering that the Act is preventing the landlord from doing. Can anything be more unjust? We know that the argument is that sub-letting tends to meet the housing demand, but surely if a person's property is being used in that manner and profiteering is permitted in the case of the occupier, portion of that profit at least ought to find its way to the owner of the property who is not enjoying the increases that other people have enjoyed and did enjoy, owing to the enhanced prices of commodities.

I know it has been said by the Government that it would be difficult to administer any provisions of that kind. But with respect I disagree. I suggest it would be quite possible to make the head landlord a party to any sub-letting agreement, and no sub-letting agreement to which he is not a party would be legal. Then the profit rent of the sub-letting would be divided in proportion. It has been said that if there were two people, two landlords, that the rent would be higher still. I very much doubt if the occupier has any feeling of gentleness towards sub-tenants, and I rather think that it might operate the other way, if you had a head-landlord, and the head-landlord was to get a profit out of the letting. Lastly, I come to the matter of vacant houses. When houses become vacant, owing to a surrender clause or death or any other cause, they still remain subject to control and they have to be let under the Rent Restrictions Act. Now, as we are approaching a period of decontrol, surely it is well to see what will happen when decontrol comes into operation. At present these houses when they become vacant are not let or sold. They certainly do not become occupied by the people who most want the houses. In fact, these people do not benefit at all. I recognise that this Act is moving in the right direction, and I am glad to be able to testify to the spirit of accommodation and compromise with which the Government are meeting the various positions and conditions of those who are attempting to solve this housing problem. I notice the popular idea is that when the Government make an effort to meet this propertied or capitalist class, they are acting in a manner inimical to the community. That is the popular doctrine. It is cheap and it goes down well in certain quarters. The only possible conditions under which we can get progress are by being able to offer opportunities for enterprise and capital to come in. Capital has to earn a living just as well as labour, and I am glad to see from the way they have made certain amendments in this Bill in the other House, that the Government have recognised that and it is a good augury for the future that they have done so.

I must support the principle of the Bill, because of the fact that unless we support the principle of the Bill the control would cease automatically on the 24th of this month. But my support of this Bill does not mean to say that we are wholeheartedly in support of its provisions. Personally I am not. At the outset I must say that from the point of view of capital, about which we have heard so much from Senator Sir John Keane, this Bill is immensely better now than when it was originally introduced. Thanks to the efforts of the representatives of capital in the other House, through their influence and weight of numbers, they were able materially to alter the provisions of this Bill in the interests of what Senator Sir John Keane calls capital. I would suggest to Senator Sir John Keane and the other Senators that when they are considering this important question of housing there are other considerations than capital. The Senator used the word "civilisation" during the course of his speech. But he left the matter at that. He did not dwell on that question from the human standpoint. He did not deal with it from the question of the rights of civilisation and of human rights. He dwelt on it solely from the point of view of capital as if capital were the only thing that counted. I would remind the Senator that there are other questions than capital—questions of flesh and blood—that should count. If there is one burning question more than another in this country it is the all-important question of housing, because it is at the root of the whole social conditions from which we suffer. All the bad social conditions from which the community suffers at the moment can be traced to bad housing. It is a notorious fact, and it is on record from all medical authorities, that it is owing to the bad housing conditions in the cities and towns that the infant mortality amongst the children of the poor in those cities and towns is double the infant mortality amongst the children of wealthy people because of the bad insanitary housing conditions in which the poor have to live. Now the arguments of Sir John Keane for decontrol in the interests of what he calls the capitalists are amazing to me. He put forward the extraordinary argument that was put forward by other people in the old days who ought to have had sufficient knowledge of the public to prevent them putting forward such arguments. He talked of control being responsible for the prevention of building houses. He talked of that, forgetting the fact that no house that has been built since 1914 is under control in any way, that anybody who has built houses since 1914 is at perfect liberty to demand and receive any purchase price or any rent he can get for those houses. Therefore, houses that were built and let at a tenancy in 1914 are the only houses that are being controlled. That is because of the fact that from 1914 to 1921 there were practically no houses built and no house-building carried on in the country. In 1914 a Departmental Commission was set up by the British Government to inquire into the housing conditions of the City of Dublin. That Commission issued a unanimous report in which they said that the conditions under which the poor people were compelled to live in this City of Dublin were a disgrace to civilisation. They stated that at the time of their report in 1914 there were required 26,000 houses to meet the needs of the population of Dublin.

From 1914 to 1920 there were practically no houses built. One would imagine, with the increase of population in the City and the going out of commission of the houses that fell down, that the number of houses needed in 1921 was largely increased. Some of these houses were so bad that they could not be propped up. I have already said that from the point of view of capital the Bill is much better now than it was when first introduced into the Dáil. It is better from the point of view that there has been a reduction in the valuation of houses that are controlled. It is better from the point of view of the owners of the houses, that when those houses become vacant—houses over a valuation of, I think, £20—that control ceases. There was a question raised with regard to sub-tenancy. I do agree that some effort should be made to prevent profiteering by people who sub-let portion of their premises. I say that because the poorer people in the city are suffering to a very great extent because of the profiteering by people who sub-let a couple of rooms to people who cannot afford to pay any more.

The question of control is proposed to be carried on to 1929. Senator Sir John Keane referred to the leader of what he termed the Opposition in the other House. I presume he referred to the leader of the Labour Party in the other House. Without the Labour Party I think there would be very little opposition there. The Senator told us that the Opposition leader tried to get control beyond 1929. Well, judging by the rate at which houses are being built, I think control will have to be extended far beyond the period which the Labour Party ask. When we consider the needs and requirements of the people in the cities and towns with regard to houses, and also take into consideration the number of houses that have been built, we are forced to the conclusion that control will have to be continued beyond 1929.

There were some extraordinary statements made in the other House during the Second Reading and Committee Stage of this Bill. The Minister for Justice made some extraordinary statements in the other House. He almost threatened us with the introduction of steel houses if Labour did not consider the doing of certain things, of giving increased output and everything else. From my knowledge of the houses that have been constructed now I am satisfied that it will not be long until we arrive at the time when no skilled labour will be required for those houses. Skilled labour is almost being eliminated from the houses that are being erected, but the price is not coming down. We hear a lot of labour costs in relation to those houses. I know a little about building and the cost of erection of houses, and I know a little of the relative percentage of costs of materials and labour. I am prepared to discuss these questions with Senator Sir John Keane. If you take the present labour cost of the type of house erected by the Dublin Commissioners and examine the labour costs of that house and the cost of materials you will be astonished at the difference.

Does the Senator include in the term "labour costs" the cost of labour expended on the material?

I refer only to the cost of labour in the erection of the house. As a matter of fact that brings me to another point. In the desire to eliminate skilled labour in the building of houses all the money is going to foreign countries for the materials which are being purchased and therefore you cannot blame the worker for the high cost of production of the houses. Senator Sir John Keane was talking about the rights of capital and all that class of thing. He forgot one important fact, that the Government was forced to grant a million in 1922 and I think £600,000 since—that is £1,600,000 in all of the ratepayers' money in addition to the amount that has been given by the local authorities for the erection of houses for the working class. He loses sight of the important fact that this is being done in the interests of capital. It is subsidising the capitalist because the capitalist is not paying the worker a living wage to enable him to afford an economic rent for his home. That is a statement which I think cannot be controverted.

Notwithstanding the fact that the Government have given subsidies and that the rates of the citizens of Dublin have been spent on the erection of those houses, now that they are built, they are let at a rent of 17/6 a week. With the wages that are being paid, if you take the percentage that a worker ought to pay for his rent you will find that it is not an economic proposition for him to pay 17/6 a week. I think it is clear that all the money spent by the Government is, in reality, a subsidy to employers to prevent their paying an economic wage so that their workers could afford to pay an economic rent. I know Sir John Keane is an expert on figures. If he examines these, I am satisfied from his fairmindedness that he will agree the statement is correct. Senator Sir John Keane says something about capital solving the housing problem. I am glad to hear that, because I think it is nearly time capital did make some effort to solve the housing problem. It is an everlasting disgrace to the capitalists and merchants of this country that the ordinary ratepayer has to subsidise those houses in order to subsidise the capitalists who do not pay their workers sufficient for the latter to pay an economic rent to live in the houses. It is a notorious fact that employees of the larger concerns in Dublin, employed by companies, some of them, who are paying as high as 30 per cent. dividend on their shares are applicants for those houses which are subsidised by the State and the municipality. That is an everlasting disgrace to what are called the capitalists in this country.

On a former occasion here, when discussing the question of housing, I referred to what had been done on the other side of the water. The merchant princes on the other side look after their workers and provide them with decent houses to live in. Their environment is quite different. These comparisons are made with regard to output. How can you expect the same output from unfortunate men, maybe eight of whom are sleeping in one room in a dirty slum tenement? How can those give the same output as men living in Port Sunlight, where the workers are properly housed? Capital in this country has neglected its responsibility in that respect. An English firm which came over here twelve months ago, to their credit, when they found they could not get proper houses for their workers, built proper houses in order to enable them to live in decency. Irish capitalists should take a leaf out of their book and follow the good example of those people who came to Dublin.

A good deal of the discussion that has centred round this Bill is in connection with general principles and we have from Sir John Keane on the one hand, and Senator Farren on the other, charges and counter-charges against capital and labour which, perhaps, it is not strictly necessary to pursue to their logical conclusion. The Act of 1923, the Principal Act, was introduced simply to meet the situation arising out of the six or seven years' complete cessation of house production. One may talk about the free play of economic forces. One may talk about supply and demand, but I believe no government, faced with a responsibility for the administration of the country, would have faced the social reactions of a failure to introduce the Act of 1923.

If one were to say that the shortage arising from seven years' cessation of house production should be, and might be, exploited to the full by house owners, then the sociological reactions to that would be very grave indeed, and there is no real hope that, in any short time, the stringency of the demand would create an adequate supply. The fact is, that with considerable subsidies, with the Government doing everything possible by legislation and administration, we have only made, since 1923, a small inroad on the shortage and the actual demand for houses in the country. On the other hand, while I disagree with the bald statement of Senator Sir John Keane that, in all circumstances capital must be allowed to reap the reward of high prices and scarcity, Senator Farren went to the other extreme. He talked about this Bill facing towards decontrol, which undoubtedly is embodied in the Bill, and then proceeded to speak on infant mortality and the bad housing conditions in the City of Dublin. The real problem of the Government has been where to draw the line and to endeavour to be very sure that, in preventing the exploitation of a housing shortage, we were not also preventing the activity in building that is desirable. I have gone into figures on the matter and I know that during this control period under the 1923 Act, and to some extent under this Bill, you have undoubtedly this position, that, if the owner of a house could sell his house and invest the proceeds of such sale in any securities, National Loan or anything else, he would reap, in that way, a sum considerably larger than that which he has been allowed to charge by way of rent, without any of the trouble, any of the annoyance or inconvenience that I am told the possession of house property involves. When you have that situation you have undoubtedly a position where the Government has had to ask itself whether its legislation does not lie dangerously near the mark, and calculated to impede and delay an adequate supply of houses for which there is so great a demand.

There is no control of new houses.

Clearly there is no control of houses built after April, 1919, but it is not, at any rate, an inducement to additional building for people who own houses to find themselves in the position that the rent is kept down to a level so low that, if one could get vacant possession, one could sell for a sum which, if invested, would bring in a very much larger amount than the rent. We have tried —and naturally I have not any illusion of pleasing everyone in this Bill—to steer a middle course. On the one hand war control, justified by war conditions, justified by six or seven years' cessation of housing, cannot be continued indefinitely. On the other hand this Bill faces in the direction of decontrol and does, to some little extent, actually provide for decontrol by coming down the scale in two ways: one by coming down the scale of valuation and releasing, in each succeeding year of a three years' period for which the Bill is to last, a block of houses built prior to 1919.

Under our 1923 Act there was control of houses whose valuation or standard rent did not exceed £60 in the Dublin area, and £40 elsewhere. Under this Bill, in the year ending 24th June, 1927, these figures will be reduced to £40 in the metropolitan area, and £30 throughout the rest of the State. After 24th of June next houses whose valuation or standard rent exceeds £40 in the Dublin area, or £30 elsewhere, will cease to be controlled. The number is not very large. I recognise that. The number of houses that will pass out from control in Dublin after 24th June will not be large, but some will pass out and a larger number in the other two succeeding years. Houses whose valuation or standard rent exceeds £40 in the Dublin area and £30 elsewhere will be decontrolled in the first year. After 24th June, 1927, houses exceeding £30 in the Dublin area and £25 elsewhere will cease to be controlled, and in the last of the three years this Bill makes provision by which houses whose poor law valuation or standard rent does not exceed £25 in the Dublin area and £20 elsewhere will remain subject to the restrictions.

In 1929 the Government of the day, facing the situation as it finds it, will have to decide whether it is going to face complete decontrol or legislate, by providing for some further continuance of these restrictions and control with regard to houses. We have not thought it wise to endeavour to make provision beyond a three years' period, and it will be for the Government that is in office when the Act expires to decide what the circumstances of the time require in relation to housing and the housing shortage. There is that kind of decontrol by coming down the scale of valuation and also permitted increase in the amount charged on foot of repairs.

Senator Keane, having discussed general principles to his entire satisfaction, proceeded to deal with the outstanding blemishes of the Bill. It is easy to point to a thing in the Bill and say: "This is a blemish, and that is a blemish." Let us look at the other side. For instance, take the notice to quit issue that was touched upon. Is it seriously suggested that we should, in this Bill, so legislate as to rip up thousands of court judgments? Granted that something happened under the Principal Act, granted that something happened under the 1920 Act, and subsequently under the 1923 Act which was not contemplated by the legislature, is it suggested that we should now go back and reverse and rip up all the court processes, all the court judgments, and compel repayment of moneys that have changed hands under these court judgments? That is the alternative.

As I understand only a very limited percentage of these deductions are made under court judgments. Most of them are made by withholding the rent without any decree of the court.

Whether it was done by going to the courts and setting the machinery of the law in motion and obtaining a positive refund from the landlord, or whether it was done by deduction from the rent due to the landlord, it was legal in every case. We are told by the Senator, who would be the first, in another set of circumstances, to denounce retroactive legislation, that we should have embodied in our Bill provisions reversing these court judgments, or compel the repayment of the money that was, at any rate, strictly legally withheld. Now Parliaments must have their margin of error like every other human institution. Departments and draftsmen have made mistakes in the past, and will make mistakes in the future, but it is a very dangerous principle to attempt to establish that when, and if, mistakes of that kind occur, when, and if, the law is found in effect to be not what was contemplated by the legislature, you must then bring in another Bill to rip up the whole situation retrospectively so as to strike back to the past and to create in that way the situation you originally intended or hoped to create. I discussed the suggestion as to making this provision retroactive in the Dáil rather fully. Senator Sir John Keane read the discussion that took place in the Dáil quite closely, and I know he did not feel the ground very firm under his feet when he came here to-day and suggested that the provision in the Bill in this matter is not adequate and that we should have done more.

I do not think I indicated retrospective legislation. I do not think I pressed that point. My point is that the injustice existed three years. When the error was known why was it allowed to continue and the injustice allowed to go on? A very short Act would have put that injustice right.

I agree that in our 1923 Act certain words in a certain section failed to effect what we believed at the time they were going to effect. The Senator is quite welcome to that. I agree that the blemish in the original British Act was corrected in Britain in 1923, and was sought to be corrected here in 1923 and that that portion of our Bill failed in its operation. The Senator says we might have legislated sooner. It is really going as far as we can go to draw a line from the introduction of this Bill—4th May —this year and say there can be no more of these deductions by the tenants or compulsory refund secured by the tenants after the date of the introduction of this Bill. When the Senator said that anyone who would like to do it would have done it before this Bill becomes law, I think he was making a gross over-statement. He must realise himself if the tenants in the country for his purpose are as avaricious and willing to avail of a technicality, then all these tenants would have successfully set the machinery of the law in operation and have secured their refunds before this Bill has become law. They will not, and could not, have done anything of the kind.

Simply because the machinery of the courts would not be adequate.

I have made the point before that the court machinery is not necessary. It is done without recourse to the courts.

It is done, and can be done, by a simple process of deductions of moneys due to the landlord, but when this Bill becomes law that provision dates from the 4th May, the date of introduction of the Bill.

Three weeks ago?

The Senator would like three years perhaps, with all that that involves. He would wish that money legally deducted for three years back even to the original Act, and money paid by one party to another under the judgment of the courts should be refunded under the 1926 Bill? Does the Senator seriously put forward that proposition to the Seanad?

May I say in reply I have not put forward that proposition at all?

Then what proposition does the Senator put forward?

I am not asking for three years' retrospective legislation. My point is the injustice of delaying three years before putting this matter right. The point was, knowing this thing was wrong and admitting the Act was defective, this injustice has been allowed to continue for three years.

There again the Senator has overstated his case. The injustice has not been allowed to continue for three years. It is not three years ago since we discovered that the 1923 Act failed to effect the very thing we aimed at. We had opinion, and very eminent opinion, on the matter, and it is not three years since an authoritative decision was given by the courts here upon the question.

Passing from that, another outstanding blemish, the Senator says, in the Bill is the provision with regard to the payment of rates on houses that are vacant. That provision, of course, was in the 1923 Act, and it was in the Act for reasons that seemed quite good and sufficient at the time. It was intended to prevent house-owners, in times of acute housing shortage, leaving their houses vacant rather than let them, in the vague hope that good purchasers would turn up. We said: "If you choose to do that with your houses you must pay rates in the same way as the occupiers pay rates."

I am aware that in particular cases that provision has pressed harshly. I know that in one town where there was a certain shifting of the population, as many as from twelve to twenty houses in the town have fallen vacant and there is no competition for these houses. There is no one looking for them to let them, and under the provisions of our 1923 Act the owner was compelled to pay the rates on these houses, just as if they were deliberately kept vacant. I have inserted in this Bill—and I would be interested to know how much further Senator Sir John Keane will want me to go—in Section 9, the following:

Section 16 of the Principal Act shall not apply to a dwelling-house while such dwelling-house is empty or unoccupied for the purpose of the execution of additions, alterations, or repairs thereto or by reason of the landlord thereof being bona fide unable to obtain a tenant therefor at a rent equal to the standard rent and the increases permitted by the Principal Act as amended by this Act: Provided that the period of exemption of liability for rates in respect of houses which are empty or unoccupied for the purpose of the execution of additions, alterations or repairs to shall not exceed six months.

It would be a question of fact, therefore for the court to determine in a particular case whether or not the house-owner is liable to pay rates on his house. If he can show his house is empty because he is carrying out general and substantial repairs; if he can show the house is empty because of the absence of a tenant, because there is really no one looking to rent the house, then liability for rates will not exist. If, on the other hand, the court is satisfied that the house is being deliberately kept vacant, rather than simply because a landlord is unwilling to let it, or is leaving it empty in the hope of selling it, liability for rates will be upheld. Personally I consider that provision a fair one, and I consider it adequate. Of course, I am not pronouncing on Senator Sir John Keane's amendment until I see it. I will be interested to see how much further he wants me to go in that matter. Sub-letting can scarcely be discussed without reference to the Principal Act, the Act of 1923, and in particular to Section 1 of that Act, the definitions. In paragraph 1 of Section H you have:

The expression "landlord" also includes, in relation to any dwelling-house, any person other than the tenant who is or would, but for this Act, be entitled to the possession of the dwelling-house, and the expression "tenant and tenancy" includes sub-tenant and sub-tenancy, and the expression "let" includes sub-let.

I am advised that sub-letting comes within the scope of the Principal Act; that, in fact, the relation between the sub-tenant and the tenant is analogous to that between the landlord and tenant. If the Senator will refer to these definitions of landlord and tenant given in the Principal Act he will, I think, be satisfied on that point. If tenants profiteer, to use that controversial word, against sub-tenants, they have their remedy, just as the tenant has his remedy against the landlord or house-owner.

Will the Minister develop that further and indicate how the standard rent will be fixed in portion of a house sub-let?

I am not a counsel feed to advise sub-tenants, but I am giving on the authority of our best legal advisers a statement that sub-letting comes within the scope of the Principal Act, and consequently within the scope of this Bill, and that there is a provision within these Acts for the protection of a sub-tenant, or against the undue exploitation by the tenant. Senator Sir John Keane shakes his head. He is shaking his head against the opinion of the Attorney-General.

No, I would not say that. I say that as a condition for fixing a separate rent there must be a valuation of the portion of a house let, but there is no separate valuation of the portion sub-let.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I think we had better develop this in Committee.

We can go into that in Committee. Valuation of a particular portion of a house, of rooms sub-let, is not essential. The court will arrive at the standard rent for portion of a house without that. It does not need a separate valuation. I could not tell the Senator off-hand how the standard rent of a given two rooms on a third floor would be arrived at, but it would, presumably, be arrived at by some process of apportionment of the standard rent of the entire structure. When I was asked in the Dáil to make a provision that a landlord, a house-owner, could come in and share spoils with his tenant who was sub-letting, then in fact what I was being asked to do is this: that an illegal profit reaped by the sub-tenant was to be shared by the landlord. On that condition it was all right. If they shared fifty-fifty and skinned the sub-tenant between them then there was nothing wrong in that.

So much for the prominent blemishes. We can go into them further on Committee. The Senator said he did not know who this Bill served, and that the judges did not like it. It is rather a new principle that legislation is based in the interests of the judges whose duty it is to administer it. It is difficult and technical legislation, but it was socially necessary, and we believe that its continuance in a modified form is necessary for a further period of three years. It will be for the Government, or the Dáil, of 1929 to consider whether the situation then is such as to warrant decontrol, or to consider whether further legislation will be necessary. We have had here two points of view to-day: that of Senator Sir John Keane and that of Senator Farren. Those who have listened to those two speeches will be able to appreciate the position of the Government which is expected to hold the scales evenly, and to steer a middle course between two such diametrically opposite points of view as we have heard in the speeches of the two Senators.

I have only to say a few words, and I hope they will be to the point. We have listened to learned and metaphysical disquisitions on principle and so forth, but I notice, whether by design or accident, that all the speakers have omitted to refer to the real sting in the Bill. I refer to Section 6. In the Act as it stood the landlords were allowed to increase the standard rent over 1914 by 10 per cent., and in addition there was a liability in respect of repairs. This Bill enables landlords to increase the standard rent by another 10 per cent. I noticed the Minister referred to that in a sort of undertone and suddenly slipped away from it. I suppose by accident. I was amazed to hear Senator Sir John Keane criticising this Bill at all, because I think it is a marvellously favourable Bill from the point of view of that grand array of patriots—house landlords and slum owners. We are told every day by the Government that this is a poor country, that everything costs us more than we can afford to pay, and that wages must come down. They are acting in that spirit so much that they have fixed 32/- per week as the standard wage for a man doing heavy navvy work, but they tell landlords and slum owners that they are to be at liberty to increase rents by another 10 per cent. just at the time when they are saying that the cost of living must come down and that everything is too expensive.

I think in the circumstances of the country that particular section in the Bill is an outrageous proposal and the plea that it will encourage building, when we know that if these people built other houses they would not be controlled in any case, is a point that is absolutely untenable and could not stand the test for a moment. The houses that are affected by the Bill, we are told, were built when wages were at the pre-war rate and when the cost of materials was cheap. Where anything has been spent provision is made under the existing Act for 10 per cent. being added to the old rent. Where any extra expenses were incurred the landlords are now to be allowed to add another 10 per cent. That is the contribution of the Government towards bringing down the cost of living and towards getting the workers to accept a lower rate of wages than at present. I presume the only way that this Bill could encourage more building is by enabling the landlords and slum owners to get so much profit out of the houses as would induce them to build new ones. I cannot see any other way in which it would encourage people to build new houses. That is the contribution of the Government towards helping us over these difficult times. No wonder that they are gradually falling into the hands of gombeen men and slum owners. I can see their party funds swelled and their coffers replenished by people who are bound to gain as a result of this Bill.

When I was called on to speak I was under the impression that I was replying to a discussion and that no other Senator desired to speak. It might be well, if I am not presuming, that some fixed procedure would be adopted here—either that the Minister would open with a statement on his Bill, or conclude when every Senator had his say. There should be some provision against what has happened here. I listened to Senator Sir John Keane and Senator Farren, and I waited to see if there was any other Senator who wished to speak. Finding that they did not, I replied to what had been said and then Senator O'Farrell gets up with his political tirade—that is what it comes to—with a speech more suited to an election platform or a party meeting than for a deliberative assembly of this kind. The Senator's jibe about slum owners and gombeen men is no doubt very good as far as it goes, but let us examine the pith of it. I had prepared, when this Bill was in process of preparation, a list of typical cases of houses, taking in various parts of the city, with a view to seeing just what this permitted increase amounted to. Let us take this one case, and it is not the strongest. There is a house here with a valuation of £18. Its 1914 rent was £36. The rates for 1914 were £10 5s. 10½d. The standard rent of that house is £25 14s. 1½d. The rates in 1926-7 are £14 8s., and the permitted increase is £2 11s. 5d. under the existing Act.

Under this Act?

The permitted increase under the previous Act is £2 11s. 5d. That gives the proportions of the thing, and it gives really what is the basis of the Senator's heated rant about gombeen men, slum owners, and so on. The elections will come in due time, and we will meet the Senator's little tirades in their proper place. But, to get up after the Minister has concluded his statement and deliver an ignorant, heated tirade of that kind is scarcely good enough.

Question put and agreed to.
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