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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 2 Feb 1927

Vol. 8 No. 4

PUBLIC BUSINESS. - PROPOSED NEW SECTION.

I move:

Immediately before Section 12 to insert a new section as follows:—

(1) In this section the expressions "The Commissioner" and "new building" and the word "valuation" have the same meaning as in the preceding section; the word "tenement" means any rateable tenement or hereditament; and the expression "the exemption period" when used in relation to a tenement the valuation of which has been increased means either a period of five years from the date of such increase or the period from such date to the next date on which a general revision of valuation in an area in which such tenement is situate becomes effective, whichever of such periods is the shorter.

(2) This section shall apply to every building except the following, that is to say:—

(a) Houses erected under the Labourers (Ireland) Acts, 1883 to 1919.

(b) Houses erected under the Housing of the Working Classes (Ireland) Acts, 1890 to 1921.

(c) Houses in respect of which grants are made under the Housing Acts, 1925 and 1926.

(d) Buildings which are new buildings.

(3) This section shall apply to any increase in the valuation of a tenement, not forming part of a general revision of valuation in an area including such tenement, on an application for the revision of such valuation by reason of the erection, enlargement or improvement of a building to which this section applies which is included in such tenement, which erection, enlargement or improvement has been begun and completed during the period from the passing of this Act to the 1st day of October, 1930.

(4) Where an increase to which this section applies is made in the valuation of any tenement, the valuation of such tenement shall, for the purposes of the assessment and levying of any rate raised by a local authority for the service of any local financial year commencing during the exemption period, be deemed to be reduced to either

(a) the valuation of such tenement immediately before the making of such increase, or

(b) one-third of such valuation as so increased,

whichever of such amounts is the greater; and any reduction in the valuation of such tenement which under Section 69 of the Principal Act or this section has, previous to the making of such increase, been deemed to be made for the purposes of the assessment and levying of rates for the service of any local financial year, shall be made for the same purposes in the valuation determined under this sub-section after the making of such increase.

(5) The Commissioner shall determine whether any increase in the valuation of a tenement made after the passing of this Act and not forming part of a general revision of valuation in an area including such tenement was so made on an application for the revision of such valuation by reason of the erection, enlargement or improvement of a building to which this section applies which is included in such tenement, and such decision shall be indicated by the Commissioner on the appropriate revised valuation list, and as so indicated shall be final and conclusive and not subject to any appeal.

(6) Where an increase to which this section applies is made in the valuation of any tenement and at the time of or after the making of such increase a separate valuation is assigned by the Commissioner to a portion of such tenement not previously valued separately, the valuation of such portion immediately before the making of such increase shall, for the purposes of this section, be deemed to have been an amount bearing to the total valuation of such tenement then in force the same proportion as the valuation of such portion after such separate valuation bears to the total valuation of all the component parts of such tenement after such separate valuation.

(7) Subject to the provisions of sub-section (5) of this section any doubt, dispute or question which shall arise as to whether an increase in the valuation of any tenement is an increase to which this section applies, or as to the duration of the exemption period for any tenement shall be decided by the Circuit Court on an application by any person interested, and such decision shall be final and conclusive and not subject to any appeal and any amendments which may be necessary to give effect to such a decision shall be made in the rate books and demand notes for rates.

(8) Section 15 of the Finance Act, 1925 shall have effect in relation to any tenement the valuation of which is deemed to be reduced under this section for the purposes of the assessment and levying of rates as it has effect in respect of a new building under Section 69 of the Principal Act.

This amendment is really a reconstruction of Section 11 as it stands in the Bill. As it stands, the object of that section is to extend the relief given by Section 69 of the Local Government Act, 1925, to persons who have either erected a new building or substantially improved or enlarged an existing building. The object of Section 69 of the Act of 1925 was to encourage building in the shape of new buildings and the improvement of existing buildings, with consequential benefit to the country and the giving of employment. The effect of that section was that where a person erected, or substantially improved, a building he only paid one-third of the increased valuation over a period of seven years. The section, however, only applied to buildings which were either erected or improved, that is, begun to be erected or improved after the 1st April, 1920, and which were completed before the 1st April, 1927. The Act of 1925, therefore, only gave two years for the operation of Section 69. That was found to be quite inadequate. I am afraid that the public really never understood the benefit they would get in the shape of reduced rates under that section, but, be that as it may, the object of Section 11 in the existing Bill, which is now before us, is to extend the period during which this beneficial reduction in rates will take place and also to do away with the defects which have been found to arise. There were two defects in Section 69 of the Act of 1925. The first defect was that the period was too short, and the second was that it might mean, in the case of substantial improvement, that the local authority would get a smaller amount of rates during the seven years, that is, that one-third of the new valuation, provided by Section 69 of the Act of 1925, might be less than the old valuation, and the local authority might suffer in the diminution of the amount that the rates produced. That last effect under Section 69 of the Act of 1925 had a curious result. The Act only relieved in a case where the enlargement or improvement was substantial, and the question of whether an improvement or an enlargement of an existing building was substantial arose in practically every case, and where there was a dispute about whether an improvement or enlargement was substantial it led to an appeal to the Minister under Section 69, and, very probably, with the laudable object of not allowing the local authority to get less from the new building, or the improved building, during the seven years, the Minister always decided that an improvement or enlargement was not substantial unless practically it increased the valuation by something like 100 and sometimes 200 per cent. That, of course, was very unsatisfactory because it hit the small man. It did not matter so much to a person who was making a very large improvement running into thousands of pounds, in an existing building, but the small man who wanted to enlarge his shop, or enlarge the factory in which he was working, found himself very badly hit because the Minister decided that the improvement which he had made was not substantial and that, therefore, he was not entitled to get a reduction under Section 69. Clause 11, as it stands in this Bill, remedies, to some extent, one of these defects; that is to say, it extends the date for erecting and improving a building until the 1st April, 1930. That is, the house would have to be erected and finished, or the improvement or enlargement made, between the present date and the 1st April, 1930. That only gives three summers, and practically the summer is the time that building goes on fastest and best. Therefore, one of the amendments that appears in the new section which I am now moving to insert in this Bill is that that period until 1st April, 1930, should be extended until 30th October, 1930, and so giving them a fourth summer for building. To that, I understand, there will be no objection. But Clause 11, as it stands in the Bill, did not remedy the defect. It leaves the case of the substantial improvement just where it was, and it would lead to the same result. Nobody who had not made an improvement which increased the valuation to this very great extent would get the benefit of the section.

The amendment that I am moving is, perhaps, not a perfect solution of the difficulty. I do not think it is, but at any rate it is the best solution that I have been able to arrive at. Of course the simplest way would have been to say that in the case of anybody who built a new house, or substantially improved an old one, the owner would pay on the old valuation for a period of, say, five years. That would be perfectly simple and would require very little working out. However, there were certain objections to that, and what this amendment does is to make the valuation on the enlarged or improved building during five years one-third of the increase. That does not injure the local authorities. There is no loss of rate. In fact, there must be a gain, and it is a very substantial relief. I have stated that this is the effect of the amendment I am going to make because I am going to ask the House to allow me to alter sub-clause 4. Sub-clause 3 reads:

This section shall apply to any increase in the valuation of a tenement, not forming part of a general revision of valuation in an area including such tenement, on an application for the revision of such valuation by reason of the erection, enlargement or improvement of a building to which this section applies which is included in such tenement, which erection, enlargement or improvement has been begun and completed during the period from the passing of this Act to the 1st day of October, 1930.

That gives four summers.

CATHAOIRLEACH

You are making no alteration in that.

No. Sub-clause 4 reads:

Where an increase to which this section applies is made in the valuation of any tenement, the valuation of such tenement shall, for the purposes of the assessment and levying of any rate raised by a local authority for the service of any local financial year commencing during the exemption period, be deemed to be reduced.

Then I ask to delete the words

"to either

(a) the valuation of such tenement immediately before the making of such increase, or

(b) one-third of such valuation as so increased,

whichever of such amounts is the greater,"

and insert in lieu thereof "by two-thirds of such increase."

In the same sub-clause as a matter of drafting the word "determined" in the last line but one would be better "reduced." That is to say, substitute "reduced" for the word "determined." The object of clause 6 as it stands, and as I hope it will stand, is to apply for the apportionment of the valuation of a tenement only a part of which has been built on and is separately valued. You have to work the valuation of the rest of it in connection with the new and separate value which has been put on a small part. That requires apportionment of the valuation. It was considered that it was worked out by sub-clause 6 as it originally stood, but it has not stood the test of working out and, accordingly, I would ask to delete the last three lines beginning with the words "the same proportion." Then it will read as follows:—

Where an increase to which this section applies is made in the valuation of any tenement and at the time of or after the making of such increase a separate valuation is assigned by the Commissioner to a portion of such tenement not previously valued separately, the valuation of such portion immediately before the making of such increase shall, for the purposes of this section, be deemed to have been an amount bearing to the total valuation of such tenement then in force such proportion as shall be determined by the Commissioner who shall indicate such determination on the appropriate revised valuation, and such determination as so indicated shall be final and conclusive and not subject to appeal.

That is, the Commissioner is taking the burden of doing this technical apportionment of the rates between the different parts of this tenement. It is a technical thing and it is a question of fact which might be very safely left to the Commissioner. If the House would give me leave to alter the wording of my amendment in the way I have indicated I beg to move it.

I notice that the Senator, in his amendment, excludes buildings which are new buildings from the rates exemption and I would like to ask an explanation.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I called his attention to that privately and he explained it to me that while at first he excludes new buildings he later expressly brings them in.

So they are included.

CATHAOIRLEACH

They are included.

If the Senator looks at the amendment he will see that the word "erection" is used.

I take it the rates exemption can extend only up to 1935 at the latest.

Five years from the increase of the valuation. The valuation may not be increased until 1931, in which case the exemption would run until 1936.

Five years is the maximum?

And the exemption shall be two-thirds of the increase?

Does that also apply to new buildings?

Yes, two-thirds of the total.

I want to know does the Senator persist in carrying out, under this amendment, what was carried out under the amendment to the Local Government Bill of 1925. You remember when this amendment, which embodies the principle which we are discussing under the present Bill with regard to the remission of rates on buildings, was sprung on us I called, the Senator's attention to the fact that he was doing an injustice to people who were inhabitants of working-class dwellings. He stated at the time that as the local authorities were the ratepaying people that they would be paying rates to themselves and that the matter did not affect them. I went, at great length, at the time, to point out to the Senator that that was not the position, so far at least as Dublin is concerned. The local authorities are not paying rates to themselves. The tenants in possession are becoming the owners and they are paying rates and are responsible for the maintenance of the houses. No doubt the argument will be put forward that these houses were built under subsidies and that the tenants are getting the benefit of the subsidies, but houses that were built by speculative builders and private individuals are in the same position. They also got subsidies under the Housing Acts of 1924 and 1925 and they got a remission of rates for twenty years. So we are doing a grave injustice to the poorest class of the community; the people who can afford least to pay are being made to pay the full rates.

The position is exactly this: The Minister for Local Government and Public Health is aware, no doubt, of the fact that in the case of houses built in the city under the Housing Acts for the last few years, rents are not fixed but the tenant has to pay a certain amount representing the purchase price and the rates of the house. When the tenant enters a house built by the municipality he has to sign a lease and pay a fee for the signing of the lease. These tenants are becoming owners of the houses. They are responsible for the full maintenance of the house. They are the purchasers of the house by weekly, monthly, quarterly or yearly instalments. In addition, if they are paying weekly they pay more for the expenses of collection. I want the Seanad clearly to understand that the tenants of these houses are the owners and that they are responsible for the rates just as they are responsible for the maintenance. I say that it is unfair if we are going to have legislation whereby people get the benefit of reduced rates from new houses, to take a class of the community that can least afford to pay increased rates and deprive them of the benefits you are giving to every other section of the community.

The Minister is also aware that the rents fixed, or at least the weekly instalments of the purchase price of houses, such as those built in Marino, are as high as 17/3 in some cases. They range from 14/- to 17/3, and the result is that the tenants are not able to pay. If he consults the responsible authorities in the municipality of Dublin he will find that in a large number of cases tenants of the working class type are not able to pay these rents. They cannot afford to pay such a high rent. Heretofore, professors of economics and people who studied the position were of opinion that one-eighth of the income or wages of the working class, was the quota that should be allowable for rent. That was about the sum that should be taken from the weekly earnings for rent, and if you reduce the wages of these people to £2 11s., as they have done, how can you expect these men to be honest and compel them to pay 17/3 a week rent? I am not introducing this to have a discussion on the whole question of working class houses, but I pointed out to Senator Brown on the day he introduced that amendment that it was doing a grave injustice to these people. The House would not accept my view and there was another provision inserted.

I would suggest to Senator Brown that he should now delete sub-clause (b) in sub-section 2 of the new section. I think the Seanad will admit that in equity the same treatment should be given all round. As I have pointed out, building speculators have got subsidies, and in addition they got a remission of rates for twenty years. People who were in a position to take advantage of these Housing Acts got a subsidy of £100 from the local authority and £100 from the State. These people got a subsidy of £200 and they also got a remission of the rates. I think it is unfair to other people who can least afford to pay, if this benefit is given to new houses, that they will not get the same advantages.

I think the point raised by Senator Farren should be very carefully looked into. I understand the reason why, under Section 11, these houses were excluded was, that they already had got an exemption from rates. The only reason was that they had already got the privilege. I am not an authority on the subject and I would be glad if the Minister could let us know if that is the case. As far as new buildings are concerned, if they were built under these Acts they can be exempted. Even though a house built under one of these Acts has already got exemption as a new house, if that house is enlarged I for the life of me cannot see why it should not get the benefit conferred by this section. There is a case under Section 11, assuming that they had already got reduction in rates, for another reduction in respect of any enlargement.

I think the Minister will admit that there is no remission of rates in these houses. I have no hesitation in saying that the tenants are paying rates in these houses and they get no benefit in the valuation at all, as the houses are being valued in the full proportion to other houses of the same class.

That is true to a great extent, but all these houses had a very generous grant given to them when they were being built, and if you put in a provision of this kind it will only be an illusory advantage, because it is the rating authority built the houses in these cases. They gave the maximum reduction to the tenants that they could, and if you insist on a reduction of the rates now it will only mean that it will increase the rent.

That does not meet my case. If by any chance these houses are enlarged the rates will be increased and why should the tenant not get the benefit of a remission of rates? I am referring to Section 12, not Section 11.

None of these houses are sold or let at an economic rent or market price. That makes all the difference.

Does not the same thing apply to houses for which subsidies were given and which were built by speculative builders?

They are excluded, too.

They get the benefit of the reduction, but the tenant of the working-class house does not get it. You make provision under the Housing Acts for them——

CATHAOIRLEACH

Is not the position as regards these houses you are speaking of that they are not paying rents, but that they are paying a sum of money which is a calculated sum, an instalment on the purchase price, and at the end of a certain number of years they become owners in fee simple of their houses?

CATHAOIRLEACH

Is it not part of the arrangement that they should or should not pay rates? I quite see your point and I am very anxious that you should have relief if you make your case, but what is occurring to me is this: supposing they get exemption from rates and that those rates were thrown on the builder, would not he raise their instalments?

They pay weekly, quarterly, monthly or annually, and if they are in a position to do it they deposit a sum of £60 or £100 down. My point is that the sum that has to be paid weekly, monthly, quarterly or annually by these tenants is made up of so much ground rent, so much rates, so much off the purchase price of the house. All these factors enter into it and they pay in proportion to them. The rate is paid on the valuation which is specifically set out in the amount. The rates are paid on the valuation of the house.

I think the Minister has not answered the question put by Senator Douglas. If these people effect an improvement in their houses why should they not be put in the position of others?

CATHAOIRLEACH

That is to say that they should be brought in for the purposes of Clause 12?

Yes. Is it possible that you can have an improvement in one of these small houses? I think if they are paying the purchase money by instalments they get the lease on condition that they will not be allowed to touch the fabric of the house.

CATHAOIRLEACH

They could not very well touch it either, because they are not separate houses; they are terraces.

I take it there is no possibility that anyone would have paid off the purchase money during this period?

There is a special ground rent fixed in every case.

Is there not a special rate struck in every case?

In some of these houses very substantial improvements have been made.

I know one house in particular where the valuation had been £45. There was about £2,000 spent on it and the valuation has been increased to £70. I would like to know why the owners of such a house would not get a reduction?

This section deals exactly with that.

CATHAOIRLEACH

This new section that, I understand, the Government are willing to adopt subject to the amendment suggested by Senator Brown, would cover that very case.

He gets off two-thirds of the increased valuation.

CATHAOIRLEACH

Perhaps in regard to the important point Senator Farren has raised with reference to houses for the working classes it might be desirable to let it stand over for the Report Stage so that the Minister can look into it, because it is not very easy to arrive at a decision on a matter of this kind off-hand. Perhaps the House would be satisfied if the Minister would look into this matter meanwhile. We shall not have the Report Stage of this for another fortnight.

Will I be allowed to put down an amendment on this matter for the next stage?

CATHAOIRLEACH

Certainly.

Under this sub-section is it intended that all houses for which subsidies were given should be excluded from the operation of the section?

CATHAOIRLEACH

That would get rid of the injustice that Senator Farren is pointing out. He was pointing out that men who have already built houses under grants would be getting a reduction of valuation and rates. They are excluded from this Bill.

I see that, but I also pointed out that in every Act there is a discrimination made. In the 1924-25 Housing Acts my point was that the speculative builder or private person who built houses, got subsidies from the State or the local authority amounting in many cases to £200. In addition to that, under the Housing Acts they got a remission of rates for twenty years and the working-class man who buys a house from the municipality gets no remission at all.

The Senator's point is that the subsidy instead of going into the pocket of the tenant goes into the pocket of the speculative builder.

On that matter, the whole point is that both this House and the Dáil in their wisdom passed these Housing Acts, and at that time decided, with great deliberation, what was the maximum amount that the State, through the ratepayers, could afford to pay. It is now a question of our trying to go back on that, to undo what we have done in the most deliberate manner.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I will put Senator Brown's amendment in the form in which he has got leave to alter it. Am I right in understanding that the Government will accept it in that form?

CATHAOIRLEACH

The amendment is to insert a new section before Section 12. Of course, that new section will take the place of part of Section 11.

The operative part of Section 11 is now in Section 12.

CATHAOIRLEACH

Therefore what you are doing is to substitute substantially for Section 11 in the Bill a new section in the terms of the Order Paper, save that in sub-section (4) of the new section on the Order Paper and in sub-section (6) you have allowed two amendments to be introduced.

New Section 12, as amended, put, and agreed to.

CATHAOIRLEACH

It is understood that the Government will look into and consider before the Report Stage this question with regard to (b), and, of course, Senator Farren will be at liberty to put down any amendment that he may consider proper for that Stage.

On the question of the Report Stage I should mention that we are limited as regards time.

CATHAOIRLEACH

Yes, I quite forgot that. There is also the Medical (No. 2) Bill, 1926, and I must ask the House to meet to-morrow, because they have to be in force before the 8th of this month.

Is it proposed to take the Report Stage of this Bill to-morrow?

CATHAOIRLEACH

Yes. I do not see any alternative. We have to strike out a number of things in Section 11. The first is to delete in line 63 the words "save where otherwise provided by this section." Then we have to delete sub-section (4); in sub-section (5) to delete in line 40 the words "or on application to him so to determine"; to delete in lines 42 and 43 the words "or such application was made, as the case may be," and to delete sub-section (6).

Amendment put, and agreed to.

CATHAOIRLEACH

Does it become necessary for Senator O'Farrell to move No. 8 on the Order Paper, or is it covered by the new section?

I think it is covered by the new section and that my amendment falls.

Amendment 8, by leave, withdrawn.
Sections 13, 14, 15, the Schedules and the Title put, and agreed to.
The Seanad went out of Committee.
Question—"That the Bill be reported to the House with amendments"—put, and agreed to.
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