PRIVATE BUSINESS. - PROPOSED LAIRAGE AT NORTH WALL. – Seanad Éireann (1925 Seanad) – Wednesday, 28 Mar 1928

PRIVATE BUSINESS. - PROPOSED LAIRAGE AT NORTH WALL.

Mr. COUNIHAN

I move:—

"That, in view of the continued high freights on the shipment of live stock to ports in Great Britain, the Government be requested to confer with the Dublin Commissioners and the Dublin Port and Docks Board, with a view to the provision and erection of an adequate municipal lairage at the North Wall, with a right of berthage convenient thereto for any ships that may be chartered by the cattle traders or otherwise for the export of such live stock."

Last May I drew attention to this matter in the House. I raised the question of the exorbitant freight charges on live stock from Irish ports to Great Britain, and I pointed out that although the producer of live stock was receiving only from 15 to 20 per cent. more than pre-war, that the railway charges had increased by more than 100 per cent. and shipping freight had increased 200 per cent., while other charges were from 100 to 150 per cent. higher than pre-war. Almost every expression of opinion in the Seanad on that occasion was in favour of the motion which I brought forward. The Minister for Industry and Commerce promised on that occasion that he, in conjunction with the Minister for Lands and Agriculture, would investigate the matter and do something. Almost twelve months have passed since, and nothing has been done. To-day the screw is being tightened, and we find ourselves in a worse position with regard to shipping freights than ever before. Competition is wanting, and the only way we can get it is by a municipal lairage where all stock can be housed and fed during the period of detention. The Irish Cattle Traders' Association are not the only people who complain of high freights. The matter was recently raised in the British House of Commons by Sir Robert Thomas. He said:

"They had to-day combinations in shipping the like of which neither this country nor any other had ever seen before. The Royal Mail Steamship Company, for example, controlled tonnage amounting to the colossal figure of 2,460,564 tons gross. This octopus had its tentacles all over the world in conjunction with other similar combinations—German, Dutch and French. This huge combine fixed rates, and fixed them so high that they could sail ships with half cargoes and still make good. No one was allowed to interfere with these people, and they were gradually but surely driving the tramp out of the shipping industry. Shippers were thrown entirely into the hands of the conference lines. If anyone entered into one of the trades where this mighty conference existed they got a reasonable rate of freights. He ran a line of steamers to South Africa in opposition to the conference lines, and freights on different classes of merchandise had dropped, since he began running his steamers, from 40s., 55s., 60s., 70s., and 80s., to 15s., 25s., 30s., and 50s. respectively. That was what could be done when there was open competition in the open market."

He went on to say what the Government should do in the matter of regulating the attitude of the shipping combine which has now acquired practically all our independent shipping companies, and we are left to-day with something of about a little over two per cent. of the total tonnage of shipping trading to Free State ports. This is a serious state of affairs and is one of which the Government should take serious notice. The combine has us so completely bottled up that it can charge what it likes. That applies more to the Free State than to any other country, because in other countries there is the possibility of some sort of competition. For instance, the traders of Stranraer a very short time ago complained of the high freight charges. They threatened to bring in goods from Glasgow to Stranraer by boat. In that case the London, Midland and Scottish Company brought down their rates as between Glasgow and Stranraer from 33s. 1d. to 26s. 6d. per ton.

This shows what can be done by competition. There are other reasons why we should have an independent lairage at the North Wall. From the cattle trade point of view, it is most important that there should be proper accommodation for live stock at the port. The present accommodation is deficient. Cattle are herded together during the period of detention; they are roaring and goring each other in these exposed pens in which there is no room to feed or water them. That is a great loss to the owners of these cattle, because they arrive in the British markets in a wornout condition. That also gives a very bad name to our live stock in Great Britain. The lairage question is a national one, and it should not be left to be dealt with by either the Port and Docks Board or the City Commissioners. I believe the Government should interfere as the question is a national one and a vital one to the success of the cattle trade. Two-thirds of the shipping from the Irish Free State passes through the Port of Dublin. I believe if we had proper lairage accommodation the port would be very much more attractive to exporters. At present Belfast is much more attractive, because the Great Northern Railway put up a proper lairage there, and traders prefer to send their stock by that route. In connection with the erection and upkeep of a lairage I want to say that the cattle traders are prepared to contribute the interest on the cost of the erection and upkeep. We do not want this lairage to be erected for the purpose of making profits for the Port and Docks Board or the Dublin Corporation, and we would wish to have a say in the management of it. In five years, between 1919 and 1923, the average number of stock exported yearly from Dublin Port was 325,202 cattle, 284,748 sheep, 80,418 pigs. At the price charged until recently by the shipping companies for pen dues—sixpence for cattle, twopence for sheep, threepence for pigs— that wouuld amount to £11,508 yearly, and would pay five per cent. on an outlay of £230,160. A lairage to accommodate the number of cattle that pass through the Dublin port would not cost anything like that amount. The cattle trade will be interested to hear what the Minister for Industry and Commerce has done to rectify the position since he made a promise to do so last May. On that occasion he said:

The point to our advantage is that there is no monopoly in this instance. There are two sets of shipping lines, and there is quite keen competition between them.

After he made that reply, I informed him that he was misinformed, and I sent him a copy of a letter that the cattle traders had received to prove that contention. Previous to that, on the 13th April, the secretary of the Irish Cattle Traders and Stockowners' Association wrote to the managers of the different shipping and railway companies complaining of the high freight charges and pen dues and asking for some concessions. We got a joint reply to all these letters from the secretary of the Irish and English Live Stock Traffic Conference, 22 Eden Quay, Dublin, as follows:—

Your letter of the 15th March, addressed to the various shipping companies trading from Ireland to Great Britain, with regard to increase in rates between Ireland and Great Britain, has been under consideration and, as Secretary of the Irish and English Live Stock Traffic Conference, I am desired to reply to it.

It goes on to state the reasons why they cannot give a reduction on the freight charges, and continues:—

With regard to the pen dues at Irish ports, this matter was recently gone into and it was with regret that the Company found that there was no change in the circumstances to warrant any alteration in the existing charges.

That proves that the Minister was misinformed with regard to competition on the different routes between Ireland and Great Britain. The cattle trade will be also interested to hear what reply the directors of the Great Southern Railways will be able to make to the charge brought against them, that of refusing to give the site which we applied for three years ago. On that occasion when we applied for the ground to build a lairage their reply was that they wanted the space, but that another site was available, but they might require the other site at some future date. There are five representatives of that company in this House and on that occasion, at all events, their action was not very patriotic. The cattle trade believe that that reply was influenced by the combine. We are sorry to believe that such a thing as this exists, and I would ask the Seanad to pass this motion to try to induce the Government to do something to relieve us of our burdens.

Mr. DILLON

I second the motion, and offer my sympathy and the support of the farmers. Anything that tends to reduce overhead costs on agriculture at the present time will be welcomed and will have our support. We consider that the present high cost of freights is an intolerable burden on agriculture and something in the way of reduction such as that suggested by the motion should be undertaken. We believe that such a great industry as the livestock industry should not be looked at from a sectional point of view. It is of national interest and it is specially of economic interest to dairy farmers, tillage farmers, the smallest as well as the biggest. We require a profitable outlet for our cattle and a profitable means of absorbing our foodstuffs. We believe the seat of the unprofitable and the uneconomic condition of Irish agriculture is to be found in the livestock industry. I attended two or three conferences recently in connection with this matter. The case was put up that under-production by farmers was mainly responsible for the high cost of freights. The high cost of freights has been denied, and the case is made that under-production is the cause. I suggest that that should be reversed, that under-production is caused by high freights and that until the high costs are brought down we cannot have increased or economic production. There is a feeling also that the standard of efficiency is hardly up to what it might be. We are inclined to view the standard of traffic, especially livestock, merely from our own point of view, while, in such a matter, I think, we should regard it from the point of view of our competitors abroad. In other countries, and in the Dominions that compete with us, they are in advance in the way of speedy equipment and cheapness of service with the result that I believe it can be said with truth we are losing a great deal of the proximity value of our position and a great deal of the value of our fertility and other natural advantages. There is a feeling with regard to this that there is rather a preference given to classes of traffic. There might be some remedy found for that. There is a feeling that preference is given to incoming traffic by way of costs and by way of efficiency and that there is also a preference given to passenger traffic. We hear a great deal of advocacy about the promotion of tourist traffic. That I desire to support, but I think in connection with livestock anything that tends to increase and promote production should be looked on as being much more important than the tourist or any other traffic.

Mr. BENNETT

I wish to support the motion that was so ably proposed by Senator Counihan. One cannot but feel that he has made a most impressive case for the urgent necessity for such a proposal being taken up by the Government. At present, apparently, there is only one company, and it is in a position largely to control, and has a monopoly of the cattle traffic in the port of Dublin. That was the contention of Senator Counihan, and I believe it is correct. In other words, one company has a monopoly of the export of cattle from Ireland. Monopoly may be used wisely, and may be used in the interests of the community, or it may be used very unwisely and adversely to the interests of the community. I think the monopoly enjoyed at the Dublin port in the case of cattle is certainly exercised against the interests of the community. Cattle freights in Ireland are, I think I am correct in saying, rather 200 per cent. over what they were pre-war. I am speaking more or less at random, but if I am wrong I will be corrected. In parts of England the freights are only 16 per cent. above pre-war. Under existing conditions it is perfectly impossible for any competing company to come in. They have no lairage, no place from which they could put their cattle or arranging for conditions that are so essential for the export of cattle. That is the condition of affairs which, in the interests of the most important industry in the country—the cattle-raising industry—should not be allowed to continue. No vested interests, no monopoly interests, I think, should be allowed to stand in the way of the development of the country. The agricultural portion of the question—the cattle-raising side of it—has been adequately dealt with by the Government. Legislation has been passed whereby cattle from this country should be much better in future. They will be there in greater numbers, and more suited to the needs of the country. But if all the advantage of cattle-raising is to go to the shipping companies, then I think the progress of this country is limited, and will be limited, as long as that state of affairs is allowed to continue. Senator Counihan pointed out that an alternative service is desirable and essential. Sir Robert Thompson, in the House of Commons, suggested that that was the sine qua non of all progress. If the contention of Senator Counihan, that any other line but the existing line has no power to enter into the cattle-carrying business in Ireland, is true, I think the Senate will agree that the proposal is one which should recommend itself to the Government, and that a lairage should be erected forthwith. The very fact which he pointed out, and which I should like to emphasise, that the mere pen charges were able to produce a sum of over £11,000, which would pay the interest on roundly a quarter of a million, which is more than needful to provide a lairage, shows that this is a scheme at any rate economically sound, because, in the first instance, before you start shipping, you have the mere fact that the exporting of cattle will provide means whereby all your expenses for lairage and berthage are covered.

That being the case, I wish to urge on the Government the desirability and the necessity for providing an alternative lairage and giving the cattle trade of Ireland an opportunity of developing. I say without any fear that the company which has developed this has not a substantial interest in the people of the country. I say that they are much more interested in securing high dividends for themselves than in recuperating this country after the financial difficulties through which it has been passing and from which it is now endeavouring to emerge. I strongly support the motion, and I hope that this House will adopt it.

Sir WALTER NUGENT

I thought that this was the one occasion when the railways would be left out altogether. I understood the Senator who moved the motion was asking the Minister to induce the Dublin Corporation to take some action. I was extremely interested in his speech, but I never dreamt that he expected any reply from the representatives of the Railways Company. He said he hoped to receive a reply with regard to the refusal which the railway company—I think he meant the amalgamated company—made to the request from the Cattle Traders' Association. Well, the suggestion was that the reply he got then was owing to dictation from or consultation with the combine. I can assure him that there is nothing at all in that. We consulted nobody; nobody could have been more anxious than we were to give him the accommodation he desired, and our attitude is the same to-day.

Mr. COUNIHAN

But the fact remains that we did not get it.

Sir W. NUGENT

We would love to accommodate him. I was a member of the board at the time. I do not recollect exactly how we broke down, but I think it was that he wanted to take one piece of land and we wanted to give him another. That was not because we were asked to do so by any combine. It was put up to us by our responsible advisers, as far as I remember, that the land which he required might be needed for railway purposes. It is a long time ago; I had no idea that I would be called upon this afternoon to deal with the question, and so I am not sufficiently conversant with the facts to explain why we could not give that piece of land, or whether the difficulty was an insuperable one. Subsequently remarks were made about high freights—that we were charging 200 per cent. more. We are not charging any such rate as that. Of course, the Senator is well aware that while we raised our charges there has also been an increased charge on everything we have had to buy. I am not going into the question; but I can assure the Seanad that nobody will be more anxious than the Amalgamated Company to try to reduce the through rates on cattle and livestock if we were able to do so. We suggested a conference. The conference is now in existence; two of the Senator's friends are parties to it, and also representatives of the Labour unions, of the Farmers' and of the Ministry. I sincerely hope that good will come of that. I can assure the Senator that on our own account we have been urgently trying to obtain through rates to English ports. We have asked for the cooperation of the Farmers' Union to enable us to join any project which we were able to put forward, in conjunction with the English companies, to enable us to move large amounts of produce on named days, when we could fix a rate. The Senator is quite wrong in supposing that the railway companies are taking up a non possumus attitude. The very opposite is the case. As I said, I did not expect to have to reply to any charges, but as the question was fairly put to us to-day, I think it is really a question for the Minister to tell us what he proposes to do.

Mr. GUINNESS

I should like to ask Senator Counihan a question in connection with this. His motion reads:

"That, in view of the continued high freights on the shipment of live stock."

Then he goes on to say that that will be remedied by the provision and erection at the North Wall of a municipal lairage. I want to know how the two are connected. The only way I can see that they can possibly be connected is that by the establishment of a lairage at the North Wall shippers of stock will be enabled to hold up their cattle there until such time as a freight is available by a competing company, which may or may not come along, or that they may hold them there until the market is favourable. Senator Counihan's speech, as far as I could understand, did not connect in any way the two points, that is to say, the high freights and the establishment of the lairage. I should be glad if he could explain that for the information of the House.

Mr. COUNIHAN

At a meeting of the cattle trade held in Kilkenny on 14th March, the whole question of high freights was considered, and it was the unanimous opinion of that meeting, where we had representatives from all parts of Ireland, that the only way to compete with the freights was to establish a lairage at the North Wall, where we could charter ships and convey our cattle from Dublin to ports in Great Britain. We cannot charter ships without having some place to hold the cattle for inspection and detention, and we cannot do that without a right to berthage and lairage which we are prohibited from having at present.

Mr. GUINNESS

I am quite satisfied.

Mr. DOWDALL

I am not interested in the cattle trade, except in a very general way, but some years ago a gentleman connected with the cattle trade chartered a boat, the City of Brussels, and in a very short time obstacles to a berthage for her were thrown in the way. Charges were made at the Dublin Port and Docks Board, and the question was submitted to a committee of three, of whom I was one. We unanimously agreed that obstacles were thrown in the way of finding a berth for that ship. There is only one cross-Channel communication, with the exception of the Clyde Shipping Company, which is, of course, an altogether different concern. I can quite understand railway freights being high in Ireland. I am afraid that in the interests of the railway company, they cannot reduce freights materially until there is a larger volume of traffic going over the line. I hope that the Agricultural Credit Corporation will do something to promote that increased production. I sincerely trust that the Act will be administered in a way that will enable agriculture to get on its feet again, and to produce something like the production of 1913 and 1914. But while this country is in competition, as it is in competition, with free food from all parts of the world, we are under a very heavy handicap with the existing through rates and cross-Channel freights. Some few years ago, when I, like many others, got interested in the Condensed Milk Company in Limerick, it was under contract to supply a certain quantity of condensed milk to London. The Condensed Milk Company went out of business temporarily, and when it was in liquidation we got an authorisation to get the milk elsewhere. We bought some 10,000 tons of condensed milk in Italy, and it cost us less to supply it from Italy to London than from Limerick to London.

I do not think that the terms of this resolution are quite satisfactory. The only independent authority mentioned are the City Commissioners. The Dublin Port and Docks Board, naturally enough—I make no charge against them—have to deal with the great combine that runs shipping from the ports, and no doubt they try to keep on some sort of satisfactory terms with what I might call their best customer. But I would like to have the City Commissioners strengthened by an official from the Minister's Department who would let other parties see that they must toe the line in this matter. Senator Bennett referred to monopolies which were not run in the interests of the community, but if I were a director of a company my first consideration would have to be the shareholders, and I am charitable enough to think that they are running in the interests of the shareholders. But the Department of Industry and Commerce should see that the freights must at least be competitive with the freights charged from other countries to Great Britain.

Mr. O'CONNOR

This motion has my hearty approval. I think it is a most important one for the Irish cattle industry, which is the staple industry of our country. This question has been raised again and again. It is twelve months ago since the question was raised before, and a promise was given that the matter would be looked into by the Minister, but practically nothing has been done since by the Minister. The Department of Agriculture has been successful in increasing and improving the breed of our cattle. Naturally people are very interested and are anxious to facilitate and promote the interests of our cattle in every possible way.

We are hampered and hindered considerably by the high freights and rates. As regards railway charges, we are glad to have here now as a member of the House, Senator Sir Walter Nugent, who is Chairman of the Amalgamated Railways. He is a very competent authority to speak on the question of rates. We know personally that we have his sympathy. We know that the present railway rates are about 120 per cent. over the pre-war, while the rates across Channel are more than 200 per cent. over pre-war. The accommodation at the North Wall is simply monopolised by the shipping people who are in charge there. Independent companies are practically shut out as regards getting a chance to have berthage. There has been a successful opposition to the inauguration of new shipping. The attempts made in that direction were more or less smothered by the people who are in control there, and who also occupy the position of having freight-carrying steamers. In consequence the venture has been more or less a dead letter.

Now that there are so many members of these companies members of this House, we hope that the Government will take serious steps to have a change made for the better. As regards the handling of the cattle across channel and accommodation on the boats, while we have not so much to complain about on that score there is still room for some improvement. Speaking on behalf of the cattle trade and those interested in the farming and grazing business, I desire to make an earnest appeal to the Government on this matter. The position of these people during the last three or four seasons has been a pitiable one, and we ask the Government to co-operate with us in coming to their assistance. We think there should be an all-round reduction in freights, and that the railways should try to effect through rates from this country to different parts of England. They should do that in the interests of the trade. A good deal could be done for the trade in the way of helping it along if a system of through rates were adopted and put into operation in Ireland. I strongly support the motion. I hope that the Seanad will give it sympathetic consideration, and that there will be no objection to it from any part of the House.

Mr. O'HANLON

I think a case has been fully established in favour of this motion by those who spoke in support of it. Senator Dowdall remarked that no reduction in freight charges could be achieved until there was a substantial increase in the volume of trade.

Mr. DOWDALL

I said a considerable reduction.

Mr. O'HANLON

I think the Senator's exact words were "no reduction." That is an attitude of mind to which the farmers of this country very strongly object. I suppose that one may accept it that when Senator Dowdall was speaking in that fashion he was thinking mainly of his shares, as he himself confessed. The position is that our farmers are asked to do practically everything. They are asked to produce more, to employ more, and to introduce more scientific methods of production. They are asked to work harder and longer. They have, in great degree, done all these things. The farmers of the country have eliminated many of the small comforts of their homes. They have reduced the wages of their unfortunate workers, who are as highly skilled as the workers in most occupations, to practically a starvation level. They have themselves done without many of the little necessaries of life. A lot of them are in an exceedingly bad way. They are employing more scientific and better methods in many ways in their industry. They are producing more, and, notwithstanding all that, it is very poor encouragement for them to be told that when they produce still more their freight charges will be reduced somewhat.

If there is anything more discouraging for the farmers of this country, it is the attitude taken up on the part of the transport authorities here. If the farmers have done the things that I have enumerated, then I think the transport authorities should at least come some distance and meet them. It is time, I think, that they decided to give some consideration to this question of transport charges. Unless they do that, I do not think the present condition of things is fair, nor do I think it is a far-seeing attitude on their part. The farmer is selling his produce at from 20 to 40 per cent. above pre-war prices, while transport charges, particularly cross-Channel charges, are from 100 to 200 per cent. over pre-war. If that is a fair condition of things, then let it continue, but this House should give its answer.

I do not think that the economic dictum preached by Senator Dowdall is one that will meet with the approval of men who take a far-seeing view of things in this country. The position to be inferred from the motion is that you have in this country a monopoly that can charge what it likes on the produce and livestock leaving our ports. I can say of my own knowledge that the people in the cattle trade have striven valiantly to get a site for lairage accommodation at the North Wall. They failed absolutely. They have no lairage and no access to berthage, no access to warehouses, and no way of getting anything. If the charges at the port of Dublin are increased 100 per cent. there are two things that can happen. The cattle trade will have to pay the excessive rate charges on the livestock exported from the port, or else they will have to export cattle from some port other than that of Dublin. That is a very unfortunate condition of things, and is a matter that should be remedied. The cattle trade, may I say with great respect to Senator Counihan, if additional burdens have to be carried, will not have to bear them. What would happen is that the increased burdens would be passed on to the backs of the unfortunate farmers. If the cattle traders have to pay excessive freight charges, they naturally will not pay them out of their own pockets. The burden will have to be borne by the unfortunate farmer who sells a cow or a bullock or a pig.

May I say that I was rather encouraged by the maiden speech of Senator Sir Walter Nugent. I hope he will live up to that. I know of my own knowledge that there are 23 acres of ground at the North Wall, portion of which is very suitable for lairage accommodation. When we are told that it was a question of one site as against another, it is quite true that the Chairman of the Amalgamated Railways made an offer of a site. The site looked all right on the map, but when examined it was found to be all wrong inasmuch as it was not easy of access and there were bad exits. To establish a lairage there was simply out of the question. The Amalgamated Railways Company have, however, in another position there 16 or 17 acres of land which they are not using and are not likely to use for quite a long time to come. Even if they were using this land for their own purpose, I do not know of any purpose to which, in the long run, it would be more conducive to utilise that land than in the establishment of a municipal lairage. I believe it would be in the company's own best interests as well as in the interests of the country generally that the land should be devoted to that purpose.

I think it is one of the main functions of railway companies where, at a main port, there do not exist considerable lairage facilities to provide them themselves. The Great Northern Company has done it. The Amalgamated Railways Companies might, I say with great respect, do it with great advantage to themselves. At the present time we are simply in a cul-de-sac. The cattle trade can do nothing. Something should be done and an opportunity given to the cattle trade and the farmers who are prepared to put up the money. They will do something. They will provide the capital; they will get expert advice and assistance on this matter, and they will do the work. All they are asking for is the opportunity to do it. I think that, for these reasons, the resolution is an eminently sensible and reasonable one. The alternative is to allow the combines to operate. If we have achieved in any way a measure of national independence, I am afraid that we are very far away from anything like economic independence. All our livestock leaving this country and going through the Port of Dublin are going on ships that are controlled by combines and under shipping combinations whose centres are entirely outside this country. That is not a right state of things, and I think we should tackle the position and try to mend it.

Mr. JAMESON

As a layman listening to this discussion and to the views expressed by those who are really interested in the cattle trade of the country, it strikes one that this is a question the Government might look into further. The Minister, perhaps, may be able to give all the information that has been asked for, and may be able to clear up many of the things that have been said. One of the points made is that the present lairage accommodation is not first class, and does not enable those concerned to send cattle across the water in the condition that they ought to be sent. The second point is that there is not adequate berthage. These are matters that I think a Government department could inquire into, and say "Yes" or "No" to the points put forward. If the case made is proved, I have not the slightest doubt but that it is in the power of the Government to remedy these matters.

If the lairage accommodation is not sufficient, and if cattle are not sent across the Channel in the best condition possible, then that is a matter of vital importance. I would imagine that the Minister would be able to say from the reports of his inspectors whether this is the case or not. An enormous number of cattle are handled at the port of Dublin, and I think we should be able to have some assurance from the Department's inspectors on the points that I have been dealing with. From what we have heard, and I think the case has been pretty well proved, the present berthage and lairage accommodation are at the present time in the hands of the companies who take our cattle across the Channel. It has also been proved, I think, that the cattle trade is not in a position to do what some big traders have already done for themselves—that is, to charter their own steamers, bring the steamers up to the point where they have berthage accommodation and take the cattle away. That is another matter which I, as a layman at least, would like to have the views of the Government on. If the Government made an inquiry, it would be well if we had their views on that matter.

A different question, however, is how the Government are going to bring down the freights that are charged on the export of cattle. I am not at all sure that that matter does not lie largely in the hands of the cattle trade itself. It is perfectly evident, however, if they cannot get berthage and lairage accommodation that they cannot do much for themselves. There is a case, I think, for a Government inquiry, and then let all the information obtained be given to the House.

The question before the House is one of vital importance to the country. An urgent appeal has been made for an investigation. Now that we have as a member of the House the Chairman of the Amalgamated Railways Company, he will undoubtedly be in a position to assist if an inquiry is set up. He will be in a position to give to the Committee all the ins and outs with regard to through freights and matters of that kind. I think that if the Government will investigate the matter and get all the information possible with regard to through freights, relating particularly to the export of cattle, it would be very valuable indeed. I think a case has been made out to show that the matter requires serious consideration. I have no doubt myself but that probably the Government are giving it that serious consideration. I hope that as a result of this motion all the information possible will be laid before the House.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I cannot agree with Senator Jameson that a strong case has been made. The case put forward is unsupported by evidence. I am afraid I am in the same position with regard to evidence or facts as I was arising out of the Conference which I said on the last occasion I would call. I presume when Senator Counihan asks me to state what has been done as a result of the last resolution by the Seanad that I have his authority to indicate what was the course of the correspondence and interviews I had with certain members of the cattle trade and what was the result. It will be remembered that on the debate on the 13th May I said:

"I would be prepared at a later date to take up with the Minister for Agriculture the whole question, and with him to approach the shipping companies and other important people in the first instance as to a determination of prices charged for freights and to inquire into the reason for these prices and to see if we could not get better accommodation. When one sees the result of all this a motion of this kind might be put down again if people are not satisfied with the results."

That statement I have quoted was made in the Seanad, following a statement by Senator Brown, who put the point of view that it would be better to have an investigation to see if we could get agreement as to the charges made. One of my officials wrote on the 18th June to Senator Counihan:

"I am directed by the Minister for Industry and Commerce to refer to your motion in An Seanad on 13th May, dealing, inter alia, with shipping freights, and to say that the Minister, who will shortly be investigating this matter, considers it would be advantageous that he should have before him a considered statement from those on whose behalf your motion was put forward setting out as precisely as possible the grievances for which a remedy is sought.

"Your statement in An Seanad instanced certain grievances, but could not be expected in the time available to have set out the full case. It will be appreciated that what is most necessary for the Minister's purpose is not so much the complaint that freights or other charges are high, since all traders benefit from their being low, but whatever evidence is available to show that they are higher than under existing conditions is reasonable from the point of view of the shipping companies. The latter are providing, as private undertakings, services in return for a commercial profit, and what the Minister has to investigate is whether on the whole the rate of profits now being obtained must, having regard to the capital invested, be considered as unreasonable. If it is not, then, though the present level of freights may create serious difficulties for Saorstát traders, the Minister cannot fairly hold the shipping companies solely responsible for those difficulties. A remedy would have to be sought in other directions. Before interviewing the shipping companies, therefore, the Minister desires to have the fullest statement which those acting with you, and having intimate knowledge of shipping services, are able to prepare, setting out the particulars in which you consider that a prima facie case against the shipping companies for making excessive charges in respect of all or any of the services they render can be established. If, further, you have cases to show in which unreasonable conditions connected with the handling of traffic and involving traders in unnecessary expenses are imposed by the shipping companies the Minister would like to have full information about them."

I got a letter in reply to that signed on behalf of the Executive of the Irish Cattle Traders' Association by Mr. John Cassidy and Senator Counihan. One paragraph reads:

"Apparently from your communication the Minister for Industry and Commerce does not require to have anything further added to the statement made by Senator Counihan in the Senate on May 13th, setting forth the grievances under which the cattle trade labours in respect of high freightage charges on livestock. Further details could be added to those already furnished, and it would be more within the competency and to the liking of the Executive to deal with that particular aspect of the position rather than to attempt to present a statement covering the case as to whether the rate of profit made by the shipping companies could, having regard to the capital invested, be regarded as unreasonable. Frankly the absence of the data essential to the preparation of a detailed and comprehensive statement on this aspect of the question puts it beyond the possibilities of this Executive, and it is felt that the difficulties in that respect will be fully appreciated by the Minister himself."

Then I got a statement with regard to the shipping combine, and how they acquired the Dublin and Lancashire Company, and how certain members of that company became directors of the British and Irish Company. But there is not a word as to what I asked—not even a statement of a case as to unreasonable demands. I wanted them to refer to the question of berthage, and so on. In fact the excuse was made, "We cannot give it to you." After that, as I have explained, one of my officials had an interview with Senator Counihan. After that the matter was left for some time. Then there was the June election, and the tragedy that occurred after that, and a second election. It was not until the end of November that I was able to deal with this. Again I asked my secretary to write to Senator Counihan, and ask him to call and see me. When he called I had authorised my private secretary to explain to him the reasons for the delay. Then follows a memo from my own private secretary:—

"I told the Senator that the Minister, on his return from a holiday which he was taking to recuperate from his recent illness, would take steps, if the Senator so wished, to arrange for the joint conference, but that the Minister for Agriculture, with whom he had conferred in the matter, did not think that he could be of assistance, and would not be present. If the conference was going to be held, my instructions from the Minister were to ask Mr. Ingram to collect all available information and to have it ready by the Minister's return. Senator Counihan informed me that he did not think a conference between the two parties would now serve any useful purpose. The cattle traders were about to put before the Minister for Agriculture a proposal for the establishment at the port of a modern-equipped lairage which, if adopted, would, among other beneficial effects, result, he hoped, in the easing of the freights situation. He would rather that the matter should be left over for the present, and promised to inform the Cattle Traders' Association of our interview."

The erection of the lairage is not to be at the expense of the cattle trade. Therefore, this would involve the Government in expenditure, and the Senator asks the Government to embark on that expenditure without the necessary investigation having been made. As to the berthage, I may not have been specific enough, and possibly the letter might have been written more clearly, but I thought I was precise in asking that if there were any difficulties about berthage, instances would be given. There is a Ports and Harbours Tribunal sitting. It has three harbours still left, out of 24 assigned to it, to consider, Dublin being one. It will approach the consideration of the port of Dublin in about another four weeks. If there are complaints put up and evidence given that the complaints are based on facts, that evidence should be given, I think, quite properly, before the Ports and Harbours Tribunal. We could then get it quite clear as to what is the position of the Combine with regard to berthage for boats that other people may charter. I do not think any case has been made. There have been statements made. Has there been an instance given to this House where the cattle trade was refused? Senator Dowdall possibly gave the only concrete case. There may be others. I hear an enormous number of complaints, but nothing specific has ever come to me, and on that point I have no hesitation in saying that if complaints are well-founded about the Port and Docks Board not providing berthage where it was reasonable that it should be provided, then I can answer that any Government action will be taken that is necessary. But the case will have to be made. One cannot come down and simply treat these people as if they were not in fact doing their duty before the case is made.

Then there is the question about the site for the lairage. Senator O'Hanlon was anxious about that. There again if a case can be made that there is a site, that a proper consideration has been offered for it, and that it is unreasonably being withheld, it can be tackled. I prefer to tackle it by going to the railway company and the Port and Docks Board to see if anything could be done. I would rather approach accommodation in this way than have a fight before there is necessity for a fight. Let us try to approach it in this reasonable way. But the erection of the lairage is quite a different matter. Once a site is provided, and once it is clear that the Port and Docks Board can be coerced, if they are recalcitrant, into giving proper berthage facilities somewhere near the lairage, the next thing is the expenditure of the money on the provision of this lairage. I suggest that that is for the Corporation and for the Cattle Traders' Association to consider, when they have a turnover of £14,000,000 per annum——