In fairness to the Senator might I say that I was going on to say that at one period it was pointed out that it would hardly be in order to indicate his alternative. The Senator did indicate as an alternative educative and facilitative methods. That is not a correct alternative. I do not care how long the Senator gets to develop that question he must know that education will take 30, 40 or 50 years to effect its purpose. You cannot create many changes in the point of view of the people except over a very long period of time. Circumstances change. While we can all agree that education is the ideal way to bring about reforms, everyone agrees that if you can get reforms by education and by continually changing the point of view of the people, then you are likely to have a real reform that is going to last. Meanwhile, while we are bringing about this change in the point of view of the people over a period of 30, 40 or 50 years will not the country be absolutely denuded of trees? Anyone facing up to the thing in a concrete way must realise that in addition to education you must have something else. You must have a certain amount of State interference.
Senator Sir John Keane prefaced his speech by a remark that he has made on every Bill that I ever introduced into this House. He said that he was an unrepentant free trader and a believer in the liberties of the subject, and that he had still a pathetic belief in the doctrine of laissez faire. That really means nothing in the year 1928. The fact of the matter is that Senator Sir John Keane is not a believer in the doctrine of laissez faire in its crude form, and no one at this hour of the day in 1928 is. People 30, 40 or 50 years ago, when that doctrine was enunciated in a very clear and taking way, and when people had no experience of its working out in practice, could only consider it in an abstract sort of way. People were very much intrigued by that particular doctrine, and a big school of thought grew up in England and France and in other countries around that doctrine, but there is no such person who believes in the liberty of the subject now. Even Senator Sir John Keane does not.
The Senator was a member of a Commission that sat. I think, in the year 1922 to deal with certain agricultural problems. In the Report of that Commission he advocated the most outlandish restrictions to be imposed on the unfortunate farmers of the country. He signed that Report. He advocated the most repressive measures in connection with the Dairy Produce Act, the Eggs Act and the breeding of livestock. In fact he made himself the special champion of these repressive measures on that particular Committee. Of course, he changed his mind a little bit later when these measures came before the Seanad. I think he welcomed the Eggs Act enthusiastically but he reverted to his first love and became an unrepentant believer in the doctrine of laissez faire when we reached the Dairy Produce Act, which he recommended himself. The Senator ought to realise that he must make some attempts to be consistent, especially a Senator like him who made it his special business to push through these three Acts, the Dairy Produce Act, the Eggs Act and the Act dealing with the licensing of bulls. Now he described himself as a believer in the liberty of the subject. He is a believer in the liberty of the subject to do anything he likes with his own. He ought to attempt to be more consistent about it.
The Senator's point of view apparently is that when you are dealing with produce and goods exported from the country you are entitled to take repressive measures to make the producer produce just exactly what is wanted in the export market, but that when you are dealing with produce that is not exported from the country you are not entitled to take any such measures. Whatever is to be said for that particular distinction, at least it can be said about it that it is not scientific. I am afraid that some of Senator Sir John Keane's economic ancestors who started this doctrine of laissez faire would turn in their graves if they heard him make such suggestions as he made here at this hour of the day. I think we might now come back to the Bill. The Bill could be abused by the Minister for Agriculture and by the Forestry Branch of the Department and made exceedingly repressive if it were unintelligently administered. I admit that. But I know no way whatever of stopping the wanton cutting of trees, once you admit that people will cut trees wantonly, except by giving power to someone to prohibit them from doing it. You have got to face up to that. I am not particularly interested one way or the other as regards this Bill. I left it to the Dáil. It is one of the few Bills that I put before the Dáil to do what they liked with it. I said that I would listen to what arguments were put forward for or against it, and that we would try to shape the Bill in accordance with the wishes of the Dáil. I said to the Dáil that I assumed this was not a political issue, and I asked them to make the best of it. The position is that Senators have got to say either that people should be perfectly free to cut their trees or that they should be prevented from doing so under certain conditions. I want the Seanad to say one thing or another, and not take refuge under something that amounts to nothing such as the education and facilitating of the people. This is not a Bill to arrange for a big forestry programme. We do not want any legislation for that. All we want is money. If the Dáil voted me a million pounds I could spend it on forestry. The Dáil has a perfect right to do that, and the Forestry Branch has powers for spending money. It could spend more money in providing a bigger area under State forests. It is all a question of money. Section 3, I think, is one of the most valuable sections in the Bill.
Senators must remember that the Forestry Branch has power to acquire lands compulsorily for forestry purposes. It has that power under the Act of 1919, and application had to be made to the Development Commissioners. These Commissioners are no longer in existence, and the application has now to be made to the Land Commission with an appeal to the Judicial Commissioner. Moreover, Section 6 is a very important one. It provides that the Forestry Branch may acquire land compulsorily even where the owner is unknown, and it provides machinery for wiping out the easements that may exist on the land. Senators may consider that there never is a case where the owner of land is unknown and where the easements are indefinite. In point of fact, the Forestry Department often have such cases. That Department is often dealing with mountain land. There are big areas of it at present suitable for forestry, but it is difficult to say who are the owners, and still more difficult to say what ancient rights of grazing or easements existed over these lands. At the same time the Forestry Branch cannot take the risk of purchasing lands and then find when the lands were planted that they were open to an action by somebody who had never exercised his rights, and whose rights were of no value and getting an injunction against the Department. This section provides that easements may be bought and that any rights attaching to the land will attach to the purchase money. That is an important section. I agree with Senator Bagwell that Section 7 has been weakened considerably by paragraph (e). It leaves the right to anybody to cut trees on his own land for firewood, and prevents the Forestry Branch, even if they wish to do it, from interfering in such cases.
Senators will note that a felling notice must be served in every case, and that notice may be acted on if there is no prohibition within twentyone days. Section 7 sets out there can be no prohibition in certain cases, that though the felling notice must be served the Forestry Branch cannot prohibit under certain exemptions, and one of the cases is mentioned in paragraph (e) which deals with the cutting of trees for the purpose of domestic fuel. It would be possible perhaps to limit that to some extent. The point of view in the Dáil was that people should have the right to cut trees for the purpose of firewood. I think it should be limited still further, and that the same sort of limitation should be inserted there such as you have in paragraph (d). I think a limitation should be put in the section so that no tree required as an ornament or as shelter could be cut as firewood, and that would go to meet the objection Senator Bagwell enunciated against Section 7. I cannot agree with Senator the Marquis of Lansdowne, that you can draw a distinction between clumps of trees and large woods. You cannot draw this distinction in an Act of Parliament. I was pressed from another angle to do it in the Land Act of 1923. It was proposed that there should be compulsory powers as regards the landlords, but that there should be no such powers in regard to the class called tenants. I indicated that you could not make a distinction between persons. It must be based upon other grounds such as tenures.
I do not see that there is any case for making a distinction between a large and a small wood. I think it is illogical on the part of those who object to the Bill as being a rather oppressive measure to state at the same time that they consider Section 7, which deals with these small woods on farmers' lands, should be strengthened. I think that is illogical. I think you must apply the same rules to the big as to the small woods, to the landlord who has very large woods on his estate and to the tenant who has only small clumps of trees. I would ask the Seanad not to make distinction.
It was suggested by several Senators that there should be some appeal from the Minister in this matter. I regard that as absolutely unsound. I do not see how any judge of the High Courts could try a question as to whether a wood should be cut or not. It is purely an administrative matter. Why should a judge who is there to interpret the law be asked to go into a forestry matter that requires technical knowledge of forestry and not a knowledge of law? A Judicial Commissioner was mentioned, but he is a High Court Judge. He may be a Judicial Commissioner one day and presiding at the High Court next day or sitting in Green Street. I do not see how any such judge could on appeal try a question as to whether a wood should be cut or not. What law has he to go on? What facts has he to take into account in a judicial way? I think it is a false function for a judge, and it is making him an administrative officer, making him really the head of the Forestry Branch of the Department of Agriculture.
The considerations such a judge would have to take into account are considerations which are not judicial and ones which a judge should not be asked to consider. I think from the point of view of putting the judiciary to the administration of the Act that such a provision would be entirely wrong. Personally, if such a provision were inserted, I do not think the Bill would be a very valuable one, and I would prefer to do without the Bill if it was inserted. It is unsound from the point of view of the Department and the judiciary. The best security the owner of property has is the presence of the Dáil and the Seanad, which are always there to take up their case and discuss it with full knowledge. With such a right there, it would be extremely difficult for any Minister to administer the Act in a foolish or unduly strict way. Even if this Act were passed, I agree with Senator Bagwell that it will be quite impossible for the Department to stop the cutting of trees to any great extent. He was right when he said that the provisions of the Land Act were practically a dead letter. Are we to throw up our hands and say, "This Bill would be useful if we could deal with a few cases"? Everyone will agree it is not right for a man to buy woods in Wicklow, in a well-known beauty spot, cut them down wantonly and then clear out. That is the sort of case that can be dealt with. We may deal successfully with such a case under this Bill. You cannot administer strictly. If you did you would have to flood the country with inspectors. A felling notice has to be served on the Civic Guards when it is intended to cut down trees. The Civic Guards have a fair idea of what is going on in a district, and the sergeant knows if any notice has been served in regard to a wood. He will be able to deal with the cases, and possibly bring back a certain amount of fear of the law and a certain amount of co-operation for one reason or another between the owners of the woods and the Department. It is possible, in view of that provision, that we may be able to administer this prohibition of this measure more successfully than the Land Commission were able to administer similar provisions in the Act of 1909. I would like to have plenty of time to consider this Bill. If the Bill gets a Second Reading I do not object to it being postponed until the autumn. There is no immediate necessity for the Bill, but as far as I am concerned, if Senators think they ought to have a good look at the Bill and would like to study its details, I would be willing to postpone it to the autumn, but I would like to get a Second Reading this session.