Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 12 Dec 1928

Vol. 11 No. 1

SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS.

Mr. DOUGLAS

Senator Brown is unfortunately confined to his house with a severe cold and he has asked me to move the motion on the Order Paper standing in his name. I accordingly move:—

That the Standing Orders be suspended for the purpose of enabling the motion standing in the name of Senator Jameson on to-day's Order Paper to be moved prior to the election of the Cathaoirleach and Leas-Chathaoirleach.

I imagine there will be general consent to this motion. If the motion of Senator Jameson is to be discussed, it is much better that it be discussed without any regard to personalities.

Mr. MILROY

On a point of order, I would like to raise the question whether this motion is or is not in order. I am not going to discuss it now and I simply desire to have your ruling. I would like to call attention to Standing Order 36 (a), which sets out that in all matters of order which may arise and which are not provided for, the Cathaoirleach shall rule as to him shall seem right, having regard to such precedents as may have been established. I want to stress the word "precedent." The tabling of such a motion creates a situation for which provision has not been made in the Standing Orders, and it is a question whether it is not against the spirit of the Standing Orders. I am aware it may be argued, under Standing Order 112, that any Standing Order or Orders of the Seanad may be suspended for a limited period or purpose on a motion duly made and seconded after the prescribed notice. I suggest that that particular Standing Order has relevance to the ordinary business of this Assembly when it is fully constituted. I suggest that is not the case at the present moment. The present Chairman is not the Cathaoirleach, and the Cathaoirleach is referred to in these Standing Orders as the Sessional head of the Seanad. The present occupant of the Chair is there for a specific purpose, which is defined in another Standing Order, namely, to preside over and carry out the business of the election of a Cathaoirleach and Leas-Chathaoirleach for this Assembly.

I suggest that this is an occasion where you should take serious cognisance of the Standing Order that I mentioned at the beginning, where you will recognise that provision has not been made in the Standing Orders to suspend Standing Orders before the Cathaoirleach has been elected, and it is an occasion on which you should exercise your own judgment, having regard to such precedents as have been established. So far as I know, the only precedent that has any relevance to this position is one which, I understood, was established at a previous sitting when, on a somewhat similar occasion, the Chairman refused to take any other business than that of the election of a Chairman, stating that he was there for that one specific purpose only. I ask you to give us your ruling as to whether or not this motion is in order—whether we should suspend the Standing Orders before the election of the Cathaoirleach.

CHAIRMAN

I have considered the question, and I have come to the conclusion that the House always remains master of its own Standing Orders, and at any time it can alter the Standing Orders. Consequently, the motion is in order.

Mr. MILROY

There must be some procedure for changing the Standing Orders. I am merely asking the Seanad to act in accordance with the existing Standing Orders.

CHAIRMAN

I have given my ruling, Senator. I ruled that the motion is in order, and, consequently, it can be proceeded with.

Mr. FARREN

The motion has not been seconded.

CHAIRMAN

There is no necessity for seconding the motion. I will take a vote.

Mr. FARREN

Do not take a vote yet.

CHAIRMAN

All those in favour of the motion, which is——

Mr. FARREN

I want to say, before you put the motion, that I am opposed to this.

CHAIRMAN

I cannot allow any discussion on the motion. The motion has been put forward and there is a motion proposed against it. I will take the feeling of the House.

Mr. FARREN

Will you point out the Standing Order under which you refuse to have a discussion on an important motion of this kind? It is unprecedented. You must have a discussion.

Mr. MacLOUGHLIN

The motion is only for the suspension of Standing Orders.

CHAIRMAN

I cannot allow a discussion. I was asked for my ruling and I have given it. Consequently I am of the opinion that that ends the matter.

Mr. O'HANLON

Your ruling is that the question of the suspension of the Standing Orders is now before the House?

CHAIRMAN

Yes.

Mr. O'HANLON

Then we are at liberty to discuss that matter?

CHAIRMAN

Yes.

Mr. FARREN

It was not a question of your ruling but the motion before the House. At the outset, I would say that the motion before the House is for the purpose of suspending the Standing Orders. The motion does not say what Standing Orders. But we are to suspend the Standing Orders. The object of the motion is to suspend the Standing Orders for the purpose of departing from the usual procedure that has been adopted in this House from its inception. It has been the procedure in this House since its inception that at its first meeting in each period it shall elect a Cathaoirleach and a Leas-Cathaoirleach. The motion before the House is for the purpose of suspending the Standing Orders to enable a motion to be put that will put off or delay the appointment of the Cathaoirleach and Leas-Chathaoirleach until certain things are done. Now, the certain things that are proposed to be done are quite a different matter. If the Standing Orders are suspended, it is proposed that the question be referred to a Committee—that is, the question with regard to the salary attaching to the office of Cathaoirleach and Leas-Chathaoirleach. I do not think that any member of the House under ordinary circumstances would object to a Committee being appointed for the purpose of considering and, if necessary, revising the salaries attached to the positions of Cathaoirleach and Leas-Chathaoirleach. It seems to me a most extraordinary thing that it is only at this particular moment that the idea of considering the revision of the salaries was thought of. It is really a most extraordinary thing. There were ample opportunities during the past six years to consider this position. But, apparently, no notice was taken of the position with regard to the salaries during the last six years. I am not advocating, at the moment, that the salaries should remain as they are, but I am objecting to the manner in which and to the time at which it is proposed to revise them. It appears to me that when the nominees of a certain party had these appointments the salaries were all right—they were quite all right then. But when a change is about to take place it is quite a different thing. I want fair play for all. I do not think it should be the policy of this House that when a certain section of this House cannot command the positions that section is entitled to say that the positions ought to be no use to anybody else. I consider that is an unfair position for anybody to take up. Certain proposals are emanating from another place, and from, I might say, the same stable, with regard to another matter, and it seems to be that it is going to be made impossible for the future in this House for anybody to be a member except a person of leisure. That, to my mind, is the idea that is underlying the whole position: to let it be clearly understood that membership of this House is to be made impossible to anybody but those who are in such a position that they can afford to accept the position without salary.

Mr. JAMESON

On a point of order, I want to say that the motion that Senator Farren is dealing with is not yet before the House. If the Senator is arguing about my motion before I have moved it, then that is clearly out of order. I do not think that the business of the House will really be helped by continuing this line of argument before my motion is before the House. Personally, I might say that I really do not care whether the motion is debated after the election of Chairman and Vice-Chairman or before it. But I do say that the House would be far freer to discuss the question of salary of the Chairman and Vice-Chairman if there was nobody at the time in possession of these offices. Senator Farren is imputing to us motives that are not at all actuating us.

Mr. MILROY

On a point of order, is the Senator not discussing his own motion now?

Mr. JAMESON

No, sir, I am just trying to save the time of the House in this way—that if the House does not like to debate this question before the appointment of Chairman or Deputy Chairman, then I am prepared to have it debated afterwards——

Mr. FARREN

Is this a point of order or a speech?

Mrs. WYSE POWER

That meets the objection raised by Senator Milroy.

CHAIRMAN

I will hear Senator Jameson on the point as to whether this motion will be discussed now or after the election of Cathaoirleach and Leas-Chathaoirleach.

Mr. JAMESON

The point of order is that the only thing that we should be debating now is the point with regard to the Standing Orders. If the House chooses to debate this question after the appointment of Chairman and Vice-Chairman, or before these appointments are made, I am perfectly satisfied either way.

Sir THOMAS ESMONDE

On a point of order, it is very difficult to get in nowadays on any of these controversial topics. But may I suggest that you have already ruled that the motion is admissible. You have already ruled in your discretion that the motion is in order, namely, that the Standing Orders be suspended in respect of this motion, and it seems to me——

Mr. O'HANLON

No, the Chairman has made no such ruling.

Sir THOMAS ESMONDE

Well, your have ruled, sir, that we may vote on it. I should think that the best thing we could do would be to vote on the question of the suspension of the Standing Orders. Then, when we have agreed or otherwise about the suspension of the Standing Orders, it will be for the Senators who are in charge of this motion to make the best case they can for it.

Mr. FARREN

If Senator Jameson will agree that this matter be postponed until after the election of the Cathaoirleach and Leas-Chathaoirleach, I have nothing further to say.

Mr. DOUGLAS

I cannot speak on Senator Brown's behalf, but I am sure he will agree to withdraw this motion. If the House permits it, I will certainly withdraw the motion.

CHAIRMAN

Is that agreed to?

Sir WALTER NUGENT

The only question is whether the Standing Orders are to be suspended or not. If you want to get over that difficulty put that to the House.

Mr. DOUGLAS

I suggest that leave be now given to me to withdraw that motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.