Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 18 Mar 1931

Vol. 14 No. 11

Public Business. - Public Health (Special Expenses) Bill, 1930.—Final Stages.

Question—"That the Bill be considered on Report"—put and agreed to.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

I raised certain issues in connection with this Bill last week, and it was my intention at that time, if possible, to draft several amendments to it; but in going through the Bill I came to the conclusion that it was practically impossible to prepare any amendments that would be in any way acceptable. That was due to the fact that, in my opinion, an entirely different Bill to what is before the House would be required to ensure sewerage and water supply schemes. It is my opinion that this Bill will not achieve the purpose for which it was obviously drafted. My feeling is that county councils will not co-operate in the necessary enactments for rates so as to make the Bill a practical proposition for the country. I think we are all agreed that sewerage and water supply schemes are very necessary in practically every county in Ireland, and we are agreed that there is a great deal of work to be done in this respect.

The peculiar circumstances existing in each county, where rates will have to be struck for areas at a great distance from other points within the county, will in my opinion tend to render the Bill practically inoperative. I feel another line of action might have been taken. Rightly or wrongly, my conception is that if the county councils are going to have the responsibility of imposing taxation for the carrying out of sewerage and water supply schemes, the only method likely to achieve that purpose will be for each county council to adopt a series of systems and to schedule these on a county basis. Then an equitable rate could be struck. When we come to the question of the equitable rate, the area deriving greatest benefit should be taxed to the greatest extent. A small tax should be imposed upon the areas not immediately benefiting and the balance could be made up by a contribution from the State. Let us take any county in the Free State and I am sure we will find a disinclination to strike a rate for an area twenty or thirty miles away from the location of most of the ratepayers. My feeling is that this Bill, drafted as it is, will not be workable, and the result will be that sewerage and water supply schemes will not be developed in the way we would like to develop them.

When I have made that explanation Senators will readily see that from my point of view it was practically impossible to get an amendment drafted that would in any sense amend this Bill or one that would be acceptable to the Ministry. I feel that in this Bill the Minister could have justified imposing compulsion on the counties. We know that in other directions and in other circumstances the Government have been quite keen in enforcing their will. Surely this is one instance where the welfare of the whole country might have led the Ministry to exercise a certain amount of compulsion in insisting on the execution of necessary sewerage and water schemes? While I am opposed generally to the principle of compulsion on county councils, I feel that here is one case that is infinitely more important than the many other cases in which compulsion has been applied. It is one case where, on reasonable terms, the Minister might have exercised a certain amount of compulsion. The outcome of that, with a State contribution, might have helped to solve the problem, a problem that I am satisfied is not going to be solved by this Bill. On that basis I am going to vote against the Final Stage of the Bill.

I also am going to vote against the Final Stage of this Bill. I regret very much the Minister is not here to answer questions that some Senators desire to put to him.

Cathaoirleach

The Minister is ill, unfortunately.

In that event would it be in order to move that the further consideration of the Bill be adjourned until the Minister is present?

Cathaoirleach

It would be in order, Senator, but I do not think it would be a desirable course to pursue.

I think that when the Cathaoirleach has heard me he will agree that it would be a very desirable course to pursue. I regret I was not able to be here for the Second Reading and Committee Stages of the Bill, because it seems to me that the members of the Dáil and Seanad were not aware of some of the consequences and implications which will arise when some of the sections of the Bill come to be construed. Senators are aware that under Section 238 of the Act of 1878 it is provided that the sum borrowed shall not at any time exceed, with balances, etc., of sums previously borrowed, twice the net annual value of the premises assessable within the district in respect of which such money may be borrowed.

Taking Section 3 of this Bill, I consider, in view of previous existing legislation, that there is no clear definition of what "district" is. Think as I may, I cannot determine what the district is that is to be taken into account when you are estimating the sum which is to be borrowed.

The district is the county.

The Senator's observation is an example of the difficulties that will arise in construing this Bill when it becomes an Act. Are we to understand that a sum can be borrowed equal to twice the annual value of all the land hereditaments assessable in the county? I do not think that is a true construction. If it is, it enables the Minister to borrow at least forty times as much as the Public Health Act of 1878 permitted to be borrowed for schemes of this description, and that is why I submit that before the Bill finally leaves the Seanad the Minister should be here to explain or correct the doubts and difficulties that are in the minds of Senators regarding this Bill. My own humble judgment is this, that the Bill has gone through per incuriam certainly as regards some of its provisions.

My main objection to the Bill in principle is that it proposes to put on the farmers of this country by far the greater part of the burden of public health charges. It has been said that the poor rate is an unjust tax. I think myself it is an unjust tax, because it is mainly a tax on the income of persons engaged in agriculture. Here is a Bill which provides for the raising of money for sewerage schemes for towns and, I hope, for villages also, and for water supplies for towns. The Bill undoubtedly provides that the main cost of sewerage and water supply schemes for towns and villages, which are not county boroughs, shall be borne by the people who derive no special benefit from them, namely, the farmers of the surrounding district. Therefore, the Bill is unjust in two ways: one, because it provides for the raising of this money by means of poor rate; and secondly, because it puts the main burden upon the people who will not benefit from it. I think it is an absurdity to hold out a hope to the farmers of this country that their land is to be de-rated and on the same day to make provision for imposing a rate that is going to fall mainly upon them. I am strongly opposed to the principle of this Bill, and to its being passed now in the absence of the Minister.

I support the Bill because I do not think it is likely to do very much harm. Senator Connolly supports it because he does not think it will do any good.

I said I was opposed to the Bill because I do not think it will do any good.

What has emerged from the last two speeches on the Bill points in rather different directions. Senator Comyn said that he considered rates were an unfair tax, while Senator Connolly wants to impose rates on an unwilling council. These contradictions are rather puzzling. The debate shows that this question of rating has to be considered with very great care. One Senator wants money for drains, and another Senator wants money for something else. Everyone has his own pet scheme, and wants to put the cost on the unfortunate ratepayer. There is no suggestion at all that the taxpayer should do anything. It reminds one of the story of the man who said: "I am all for economy, but hands off my Department, or any vested interest that affects me."

Perhaps the Seanad could help to answer a question that I want put. As I understand it, this Bill provides for placing a rate on an outside portion of a county for work done before the passing of the Act or since its passing. In the case of water supply schemes that have been in existence for three or four years, or even twenty years, and for which people have been paying a district rate over all that period, I want to know if they will be entitled to make a claim for a refund of their money from the county?

The Bill refers to the payment, whether before or after the passing of the Act, of an annual sum by way of contribution towards the expenses incurred. I would like to have an explanation of the meaning of that.

Cathaoirleach

These are Committee points that cannot be raised on this stage of the Bill. The principle of the Bill was admitted when it got a Second Reading, and these matters to which the Senator is now referring cannot be discussed on the Fifth Stage.

If a county council can, under this Bill, pay an annual sum as a contribution towards the expenses of water schemes carried out in districts before or after the passing of this Act I am satisfied, because the people in a number of districts have paid their money for the carrying out of such schemes, and I think it is only fair they should get their money back.

Judging by this debate, talk about water schemes is not such a dry subject as one would imagine. The questions that are now being put should have been asked on the Committee Stage and, if necessary, amendments put down dealing with them. I think it is rather elementary procedure on the part of Senators, when the Minister is not here, to be putting questions that should have been dealt with on the Committee Stage. Even if the Minister were here, I do not think he should be asked to answer some of these questions. The argument advanced by Senator Comyn to the effect that this Bill is of no interest at all to the farmers of the country was effectively answered on the Second Reading Stage. It was a pity the Senator was not here then. The answer to the Senator's argument is so obvious that it is not necessary to repeat what was said then. I do not think that the consideration of the Bill should be postponed for the attendance of the Minister. The Bill cannot be amended now. All the Seanad can do is either to pass it or reject it. While the passing of the Bill may do no harm, it certainly can do good. I believe this measure is a step in the right direction.

Senator O'Farrell has just made a most extraordinary statement. He said that the Bill could not be amended; that all the Seanad could do was either to pass it or reject it. I hold that the House can vote against every clause in the Bill.

Cathaoirleach

That is not so, Senator. Senator O'Farrell was perfectly right in his statement. The questions that are now being put are not in order at all, because this debate is confined absolutely to the principle of the Bill. The principle was agreed to when the Bill got a Second Reading.

But every clause in the Bill has to be voted on now?

Cathaoirleach

No.

Well that is a revelation.

Question put: "That the Bill do now pass."
The Seanad divided: Tá, 25; Níl, 8.

  • Dr. Henry L. Barniville.
  • William Barrington.
  • Sir Edward Bellingham.
  • Sir Edward Coey Bigger.
  • The Countess of Desart.
  • Michael Duffy.
  • Michael Fanning.
  • Thomas Johnson.
  • Sir John Keane.
  • Cornelius Kennedy.
  • Thomas Linehan.
  • The McGillycuddy of the Reeks.
  • William John Molloy.
  • Miss Kathleen Browne.
  • R.A. Butler.
  • Mrs. Costello.
  • William Cummins.
  • Joseph O'Connor.
  • John T. O'Farrell.
  • L. O'Neill.
  • Bernard O'Rourke.
  • Dr. William O'Sullivan.
  • Siobhán Bean an Phaoraigh.
  • Michael Staines.
  • Thomas Toal.

Níl

  • Caitlín Bean Uí Chléirigh.
  • Michael Comyn, K.C.
  • Joseph Connolly.
  • Seán E. MacEllin.
  • Colonel Moore.
  • Joseph O'Doherty.
  • Séumas Robinson.
  • Richard Wilson.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Milroy and Johnson; Níl, Senators Connolly and Comyn.
Motion declared carried.
Barr
Roinn