I understood the custom of the House was that Second Reading speeches, on the part of Ministers, were more or less taken as having been previously made, and that consequently there was no necessity for such usual introductory speech as is common in the other House. The purpose of the Bill, leaving out the intricacies, the machinery and the details, may be simply stated in this way: under certain of the old Land Purchase Acts mineral rights on sale did not pass to the tenant purchaser. They were reserved to the Irish Land Commission. That is a general statement which will cover the majority of cases. There will be exceptions with regard to certain substances which did pass to the tenant purchaser as well as in regard to mines which were being worked at the date of sale. They still remain in a particular owner's possession. The general result of the Land Acts was that mines and minerals not being worked at the date of sale passed to the Irish Land Commission. Under the Constitution, these lands are caught by Article 11. In addition to these, what are described as mines royal, gold and silver, are held for the State. There may be, in addition, other lands which were in the possession of a State Department. All these things are controlled by Article 11 of the Constitution, which reads:—
All the lands and waters, mines and minerals, within the territory of the Irish Free State (Saorstát Eireann) hitherto vested in the State, or any Department thereof, or held for the public use or benefit, and also all the natural resources of the same territory (including the air and all forms of potential energy), and also all royalties and franchises within that territory shall, from and after the date of the coming into operation of this Constitution, belong to the Irish Free State (Saorstát Eireann):
that is the complete vesting of ownership.
subject to any trusts, grants, leases or concessions then existing in respect thereof, or any valid private interest therein,
I call attention to that phrase because it is probably the one that will hereafter be most disputed in courts of law when actions affecting pieces of land come before the courts. The Article continues:
and shall be controlled and administered by the Oireachtas, in accordance with such regulations and provisions as shall be from time to time approved by legislation...
There is the final proviso that the lease granted shall not extend for more than 99 years. Up to date the State held a certain amount of mines and minerals in its possession which came to it either through the Land Commission or some other Government Department. Except in the case of the State Lands Act, which does not affect mines or minerals, no provision has been made in accordance with the latter part of Article 11 of the Constitution. No regulations have been approved by legislation, and it is to fill that gap in Article 11 that this Bill has, for the main part, been introduced. Under it we want to get the approval of the Oireachtas for the regulations to be made for the disposal of mines and minerals which have come into the possession of the State. That is the main reason for introducing the Bill.
Part III deals with the leasing of State mines and minerals, and Part II with the establishment of the Mining Board. As far as numbers and personnel are concerned and in relation to other matters set out it gives certain powers. Under Part III the Board may be made use of in a certain limited way. Under Part IV considerable use is made of the Board. I now come to deal with the difficulties that have been represented to us as hindering the working of mines and minerals, owned privately, upon which Article 11 of the Constitution will have no repercussions whatever. It has been frequently represented to us that owing to the fact that, say, deposits are found lying under certain lands that are held in separate ownership they cannot be worked: the mineral may be lying under one land, but the land which gives proper access to it is in the possession of another party, and owing to the difficulty of getting agreement between private parties holding land in separate ownership there has been, we are told, that lack of development that might otherwise have been expected.
Under Part IV of the Bill we do seek to interfere to a certain degree with private property, recognising private property in land, but when we do interfere we surround that interference with a great deal of restriction. Section 18 speaks mainly of the grant of mining rights in non-State mines and minerals. The sub-sections which follow indicate the motives that would be behind such interference with private property. The first sub-section states: "Where minerals are comprised in or lying under land subject to a lease, exception, reservation, restriction, covenant or condition or otherwise incapable of being worked without the concurrence of two or more persons," then if there is a likelihood that the minerals will be left permanently unworked, the Minister may, in accordance with the provisions of the Act, grant to any person who has an interest in such minerals and who, either by himself or through his lessees, desires to work such minerals, a right to work such minerals. Sub-section (2) refers to minerals that are owned in such small parcels that they cannot be worked properly or conveniently by themselves and must be worked under an amalgamation. The greatest interference with the recognised rights of private ownership in mines and minerals occurs in sub-section (4) of section 18, and is phrased in this way:
(4) Where, in the opinion of the Minister, minerals are not being worked or are not being worked efficiently and no satisfactory reason is shown by the person having an interest therein to the Minister for not working such minerals or for not working such minerals efficiently, the Minister may, subject to and in accordance with this Part of this Act, grant to any person who desires, either by himself or through his lessees, to work such minerals, a right (in this Part of this Act referred to as a mining (unworked minerals) right) to work such minerals.
There is a notable difference there from the other sub-sections in two respects. The first is it will only come into operation for the general reason that the mines or minerals are shown not to be worked or are not being worked efficiently; and, secondly, the lease in this case may be given to any person, whereas in the other sub-sections it will be given to a person having an interest in or adjacent to other small parcels and so on. Although that seems a rather arbitrary interference with private rights Senators will see if they read through other parts of Part IV that there is considerable preservation of the ordinary right. There has to be, first of all, a reference to the Mining Board and to the report received from the Mining Board on the matter. In considering that report the Minister must take into his consideration, first of all, the public interest: that the public interest cannot be served except by granting the lease, and secondly, he must satisfy himself that there is no other way of getting the minerals in that particular area worked except in the way suggested.
That is so far as interference with private rights is concerned. The exercise of such interference is subject to a great deal of restraint. Over all there has to be consideration of the question whether the public interest demands it or not. In addition to the power to grant a right to work minerals power is also given to grant ancillary rights in the case of a person who owns minerals and cannot work them because of certain difficulties. There are certain ancillary rights which may be sought and granted. They amount to the right to interfere with property that may be standing on the ground beneath which the minerals lie. The ordinary ancillary right would give the right to a supply of water and to do the other things set out.
There is a later section which turns rather in the opposite direction. It is the restriction placed under Part V of the Bill which deals with the working of minerals required for support: where a person has the right to work a mineral and where the working of this mineral may destroy property that, for instance, stands above the mineral, in such cases certain restrictions may be imposed.
The main point to which attention ought to be directed in the Bill is in Part III, which deals with the leasing of State mines and minerals. It is not proposed to consult the Mining Board except in certain small particulars with regard to the right of entry and compensation. It is not proposed to consult the Board as to whether or not a lease should be given or to consult either House of the Oireachtas whether or not before the event that lease should be given on terms and conditions to be stated. It is considered that no business in the development of mines and minerals would occur through such a procedure. The right is given here, if the legislation is passed in its present form, to the Minister if he considers it in the public interest that he should then grant a lease, the only reservation being that the grant cannot go outside the terms of Article 11 of the Constitution. It cannot be for a longer term than 99 years. There has to be a return made of the leases completed in any half year after that half year has passed. The granting of a lease of State mines and minerals under the provisions of this Act will lie entirely with the Minister. If he has to make a report then he will have to make it after the event. Neither House of the Oireachtas can query the conditions and the terms upon which such a lease is given, or seek to vary its terms. That is distinctly left to the responsibility of the Minister, which involves the responsibility of the Executive Council. That policy has been adopted because the only other suggestion that could be taken up in this matter would be to follow the procedure laid down under the State Lands Act. Under that Act where leases are proposed to be made they are laid on the Table of the two Houses for so many days and the granting of them may be refused, if objection be taken. We consider that procedure would not be suitable to apply to a measure dealing with mines and minerals. It would hamper development if development is likely in the case of the mines and minerals in the country. The distinction ought to be quite clear. In the case of ordinary property a piece of land may be wanted for the ordinary use to which land is put. The value of that can be estimated. There is nothing secret about it. It is quite one thing to lay proposals in regard to that on the Table of the two Houses, but it would be quite a different thing to ask a man who through his own enterprise and scientific knowledge has discovered that there are minerals in a certain portion of the country to make him come before both Houses with his proposals, to have these proposals bandied as between the two Houses with the chance of their being thrown out or of enabling other people to come forward and make a better offer on the result of that man's scientific knowledge and his courage. We propose to keep control of these leases entirely in the hands of the Minister, making him give publicity after the event on anything that has to be done in the way of a lease relating to State mines or minerals. The other portions of the Bill, dealing with the machinery and detail can be discussed on Committee.