Before the Minister speaks——
Appropriation Bill, 1932—Report and Final Stages.
Question proposed: "That the Bill be received for final consideration."
Cathaoirleach
I do not think the Minister will need to speak on this stage.
I only wish to ask him to answer certain questions. The first is if any preference is now being given to Britain, and, if so, why a preference should be given to a nation with which we are supposed to be at war? The second question is why this money should be kept in the Suspense Account so long? Why should it not be taken out and used for various important matters?
Cathaoirleach
I think the Senator might have given notice of these questions.
The question was discussed so often——
Cathaoirleach
Would the Senator raise it on the Final Stage? Speeches are usually made on the Final Stage rather than now.
If the Minister will not answer the question, well and good.
I was asked if preferential rates of tariffs are still being imposed upon tariffable commodities imported from Great Britain and if so, why such preferential treatment is being afforded to a very large number of these commodities. The preferences are being given in view of certain understandings which were arrived at at the several economic conferences which have taken place for the past ten years or even earlier. They are given because of the fact that in regard to certain commodities of ours imported into Great Britain, apart from the retaliatory duties which have been imposed, we are still enjoying the usual preferences there. In regard to the question as to whether the moneys are still being held in the Suspense Account, I should say they are. They will remain there until either we have abandoned all hope of a settlement or until, to obviate the necessity for imposing additional taxation, it becomes necessary to remove them.
In view of what the Minister has said, I take it that when the £2,000,000 that has been given to the Executive Council, to spend on what they consider right in regard to various matters, is exhausted, before an appropriation is made of any of these moneys about which the Minister is now talking, the Dáil will be applied to for a further extension of the amount of money to be placed at their disposal for bounties and so on. I take it that the £2,000,000 will not be exceeded or that these amounts which are held in the Suspense Account, will not be encroached upon without the approval of the Dáil.
In regard to that, I should like to make it quite clear that it is within the power of the Executive to appropriate these moneys for any purpose which has been already approved of by the Dáil, including the payment of bounties out of the Emergency Fund, without its being necessary to go to the Dáil and ask for further authority. I have no doubt that if it did become necessary to appropriate the moneys in the Suspense Account for the purposes of the emergency, the Dáil would be informed of that fact. I do not think it would be necessary for us, and I am sure it would not be the intention of the Government, to ask the formal approval of the Dáil since the Dáil has already approved of an expenditure of £2,000,000 for all purposes arising out of or in the course of the emergency.
But if the £2,000,000 is exceeded further approval is necessary?
If the £2,000,000 is exceeded it would be necessary to seek further Parliamentary authority.
Question put and declared carried. Fifth Stage ordered for to-day.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."
Before this Bill is finally passed I should like to bring under the notice of the Government the position of the horse and cattle industry generally. In the matter of that industry generally I wish to make an appeal to the Department of Government concerned. We have in the Free State a large exportable surplus of cattle and horses. In the general depression, as well as the special economic crisis that we are going through, these animals have to be taken in the national balance sheet not as assets, but as serious liabilities. For many years Ireland has been famous for the quality of horses she produced. During the last twenty years markets abroad have been found for our surplus thoroughbred stock. This foreign market is not as wide as the market which, in normal times, we had in England. It only absorbed a special grade of thoroughbreds and though it is still continuing, it is not anything like capable of taking all the animals that are now for sale and which, in the normal course of events, will be greatly increased in the months to come. In these circumstances I wish to appeal to the Minister for Agriculture and to the Minister for Industry and Commerce to get a report from their various experts and having received the data, to try and hammer out a scheme which, if sanctioned by the Minister for Finance, would permit of help being given directly or indirectly to this very hard-hit industry.
I spoke a few minutes ago of our foreign markets. Many of these countries, with which we had dealings, are themselves, though wanting our horses, incapable of buying them because of Government restrictions on the export of money, but if an arrangement by which goods, which it is essential to import into the Free State, could be taken from countries anxious to buy our horses, a certain amount of trade could be got going in this manner. Some of the countries which are anxious to buy cattle and horses would be prepared to deal if they could get certain credits and others would exchange goods. The Minister for Agriculture might consider such proposals and, if in his judgment they were satisfactory, he could recommend that course to the Minister for Finance.
Another matter of which the Government ought to take notice is a report in foreign horse-purchasing countries that a tax of 40 per cent. has to be paid on Irish horses which have to be shipped to England for re-shipment to these various countries. No such tax is levied on horses sent to England for re-shipment to any other country provided there is no undue delay in transit. Some of these foreign countries will not buy horses from any country in which foot and mouth disease exists. A purchaser from one of these countries, who came to Ireland via England this week, was informed in England that foot and mouth disease was rampant in Ireland. This is a very serious matter from many points of view and I am sure that the Minister for Agriculture will deal with it immediately. In conclusion. I would ask that this matter receive serious and sympathetic consideration from the various Ministers concerned.
In regard to what Senator Parkinson has said, I am sure the Minister and everybody concerned are desirous that the exports from this country should be increased, in horses and everything else. I know that there is a considerable market for our thoroughbred horses in South Africa. I happened to be in South Africa some years, and was specially requested by owners there to buy horses here and send them out to South Africa. I did not find such a job very convenient, and so I mentioned it, I think, amongst others to Senator Parkinson, who exported horses to South Africa, and the owners there were very pleased with them. It is a practical question. I do not know whether it is so now, but at the time I speak of nearly all the horses exported to South Africa came from this country.
I rise to support the very modest request put forward by Senator Parkinson in which he merely asks the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Agriculture to give this matter their close attention. It is a modest request made at a time when there is very considerable curtailment in the exportation of live stock from this country. It is a request well worthy of the closest consideration and investigation. Senator Parkinson has given the matter very considerable thought and study, and from his contact with it he is able to state that it is quite feasible and possible. I hope the Minister will do everything possible to find increased markets for our live stock abroad.
I desire to associate myself with the appeal made by Senator Parkinson. The great success of our horse-breeding industry is due in a very large measure to him in establishing the reputation of our thoroughbred horses. He has helped to create a demand abroad for our thoroughbred horses. It is a matter of the very greatest regret to people interested in horse breeding and cattle rearing at the moment, to see the hardships and obstruction and hindrances in connection with the carrying on of this great industry, which promised at one time to be such a great success. I earnestly appeal to the Minister to see that every endeavour is made to secure that the case Senator Parkinson has brought forward gets the greatest possible attention and as soon as possible. It is urgent and any unnecessary or unreasonable delay should be avoided.
I want to raise a quite different kind of question from that raised by Senator Parkinson, of which I have given the Minister notice. I think this is probably the only occasion on which the question can be raised in this House for the next few weeks. It will be remembered that the Imperial Conferences of 1923 and 1926, and later Conferences, almost uniformly have laid it down, as a desirable thing to which all parties have consented, that there should be consultation and that information should pass between Great Britain, the Dominions and the Irish Free State when any question vitally affecting any of these countries was being raised with another country by any of the members of the Commonwealth. In a general way it is claimed that there has been a great deal of friendly co-operation on important matters between Great Britain and the Irish Free State since 1922. The point I want information upon is this: Whether in so important a matter, vitally affecting this country, as the departure from the gold standard last year of Great Britain, any prior information was given to the Government of this country, or whether any notification or communication was made in that respect. It seems to me that in a matter of that kind the spirit of such agreements required that some consultation should take place before the event. While not in the slightest degree suggesting that Britain ought not to have taken a step so vitally affecting this country of her own volition, and without asking anyone's permission or consent or approval, nevertheless in the spirit of the alleged co-operation it seems to me that some kind of prior information, at least, was required, and especially in view of the fact that, as is very well known in Britain, the Currency Act of this country connects up very closely Irish currency with British. The question I would like to ask the Minister is whether there was any prior information or conference of any kind, and if so, what was the nature of that conference or communication.
Arising out of Senator Parkinson's remarks, he made a statement to the effect that a foreign buyer had informed him that he was told in England that foot-and-mouth disease was rampant in Ireland. Evidently whoever gave that information had the purpose of frustrating the export of thoroughbred horses from Ireland, as suggested by Senator Parkinson. I would like to know if Senator Parkinson could procure information as to whether such a statement was made to the foreign buyer by someone in the present Government, in order that the person making such statement might be specifically traced and identified.
The information was given to me by a Norwegian, and he got the information from a person whom he met at Hurst Park Races; and that person deliberately told him not to go to Ireland to buy horses because of foot-and-mouth disease there. In connection with what Senator Moore said, I am told that the South African Government is now levying a tax of £100 per horse imported into South Africa. We take from South Africa considerable quantities of maize and considerable quantities of grapes, grape fruit and oranges which are retailed in Dublin and elsewhere. I think the Government should look into that, and if they find that the South African Government penalises the import of our horses, we should get some of our own back by taxing the import of their fruit in this country.
With regard to the point raised by Senator Parkinson, I can only say that the Government will do everything it possibly can to facilitate the export of horses and to open up new markets for our cattle wherever such markets exist. I do not know whether the Senator has put any definite proposition before the Minister for Agriculture, who is primarily concerned, and, also, the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I am sure whatever representations the Senator may care to make to these Ministers will be very sympathetically considered indeed. The one thing that seems to arise in connection with this particular point, is that there does seem to exist considerable necessity for strengthening our trade representations abroad. I do feel myself, and I know it is the feeling of other members of the Government, that a great deal might be done in that connection, and that the prospect of possible alternative markets, which I might say, at this stage, is brighter than some months ago, may prove a very tangible one indeed. With that fully explored, we might develop a very effective and substantial Continental trade in all our livestock.
With regard to the point raised by Senator Johnson as to whether, before the departure of Great Britain from the gold standard, the authorities there had given any information to the authorities here of their intention in that regard, I have made enquiries and, so far as I can ascertain, no intimation, formal or informal, was given. Great Britain, in this matter, acted entirely upon her own responsibility and I regret to say that no regard whatever was given to the very considerable Irish responsibility involved. It does seem strange in view of the continued stress laid upon the necessity for consultation and discussion amongst the members of the Commonwealth in matters of common concern that that action should be taken in that particular way. But unfortunately for us it was done in that way and we feel naturally aggrieved because there has been, arising out of the action of Great Britain in this matter, I feel, a very substantial capital loss imposed upon investments in this country in securities of the British Government.
Question put and agreed to.