It is not possible to give any definite figures with regard to the trade between the Saorstát and South Africa. The figures available in our trade and shipping statistics relate only to goods which are consigned direct to us from South African ports but it is reasonable to assume, and, in fact, we know it definitely to be the case, that the bulk of the goods which come to us from South Africa come via Great Britain, just as the bulk of the goods we export to South Africa go through Great Britain. In relation to that trade, we have no figures at all. Various estimates have been prepared and they show that the trade, heretofore, has, generally speaking, been in favour of South Africa although in particular years that might not have been the case. There have been considerable fluctuations in trade as between one and another particularly with regard to maize—I refer to whole maize and not maize meal. The Treaty which it is proposed to ratify is one that was prepared in circumstances which did not permit of as full a review as might have been possible of the various matters in which the trade between the two countries could be facilitated. Although attention was given to a number of possibilities, the time available and other difficulties prevented the inquiries being made amongst interested parties in each country as to the effect of the various alterations in duties which were proposed by one side or the other, and, consequently, it became necessary to conclude an agreement which referred only to a limited number of articles but in the expectation that the existence of that agreement would furnish us with a basis on which to build at later periods.
Our experience has been that the Government of the Union of South Africa are very willing and anxious to extend trade relations with the Saorstát and, on another occasion, I am sure it will be possible for us to secure other arrangements which will enable trade to be improved in other articles between the two countries. I may say that the definite matter of the export of horses from the Saorstát to South Africa was fully discussed, but the representatives of the Union of South Africa were not in a position to offer any tariff concession in that regard. Heretofore, the position has been that we got no preference whatever from South Africa. As I think I explained in the Seanad before, none of the States members of the Commonwealth was willing to agree to a general preference system between all members. South Africa, particularly, heretofore, gave no preference except to Great Britain or in consequence of definite agreements entered into which secured for South Africa concessions in return for concessions given. Following the implementation of this Treaty, we will get a tariff concession from South Africa for the first time and the practice here will also have to be changed but will be changed in the opposite direction.
Heretofore, the Saorstát has given substantial preferences on all duties to goods which were produced in Commonwealth countries irrespective of whether we got anything in return for the giving of those preferences. Because of the situation that has developed as a result of the Ottawa Conference and the very definite indication of policy given by the different Governments represented there, it will be necessary for us to revise our attitude and to take the position that we will give concessions only where we enter into definite agreements to give them in return for definite concessions granted to us. The position regarding the three articles in respect of which a preference is given is this: the South African duty on hosiery, socks, stockings, underwear, and the like is 15 per cent., and on pullovers and jerseys 20 per cent., while the preference given is five per cent. At the present time, there is no preferential duty applicable to tractors entering the Union of South Africa and the effect of the Treaty is to secure for us a preference of ten per cent. for the first time. The duty on stout in South Africa is 2/3 per gallon and the effect of the Treaty is to reduce the duty on Saorstát stout to 1/9 per gallon. On the other hand, the various items in which we are concerned do not necessitate any change in the tariff schedules here. The preferences which are given have been given in the past and we merely contract to continue them for the duration of this Treaty.
As regards maize meal, the position is much as described by Senator Colonel Moore. The 100 per cent. preference can be taken to mean that no Customs barrier will be imposed to the importation of maize meal from South Africa. Another interpretation is possible but that is the interpretation to which we can adhere. Of course, any maize meal which is imported from South Africa will have to be sold in accordance with the law prevailing here at the time, and, in so far as that law places a certain restriction on the sale of maize meal as such, South African maize meal will be subject to this restriction the same as home-produced maize meal. The existing duty will, of course, be repealed in the near future in consequence of the passage of the Cereals Bill, which defines the conditions under which maize meal may be imported in any event, but the Act will be administered in accordance with the spirit of this Treaty, that is, to give a very definite preference to maize meal, if any, consigned to this country from South Africa.
With regard to the other points raised, I am not in a position to state what is the duty on spirits consigned from Great Britain to South Africa. The Treaty which was concluded between Great Britain and the Union of South Africa at Ottawa makes no reference to spirits and, presumably, no change in the pre-existing position has been effected since. At the present time, we are taking up with the Government of South Africa the question of the duty which has been collected by the South African Government and which was imposed in March last as an exchange compensation tax. We are maintaining that, because the Government of South Africa has since departed from the gold standard. The retention of that tax is no longer justifiable and should not, in future, apply to Irish spirits. Discussions on that matter are in progress at the moment but what the outcome is likely to be I cannot say. I do not know whether it would be in order to discuss the position vis-á-vis New Zealand or other States, but no change has taken place since I spoke here on the Canadian Treaty. I, perhaps, did not quite appreciate, when at Ottawa, and when we agreed there to carry discussions to a certain stage and then postpone them for resumption after the conclusion of the Conference, the difficulties that arise when one tries to conduct negotiations of that order with Governments situate on opposite sides of the globe.
The distance constitutes a difficulty, but there is no reason to believe that the tentative agreement which we reached, I think, in every case at Ottawa, will not be ultimately embodied in a trade agreement of the same kind as those concluded with Canada and South Africa. In the meantime I do not anticipate that any substantial change to our detriment will take place. The particular matter to which Senator Jameson referred concerning a differential duty against Saorstát whiskey in the Dominion of New Zealand is being examined, and certain discussions with representatives of the New Zealand Government are in progress. Whether we will be able to secure definite concessions in that regard will, I think, depend on the value of the concessions we can give in return. I have no doubt whatever that the concessions we are at present giving to the products of New Zealand here are of sufficient importance to them to justify an effort on their part to retain, by giving us certain concessions in return. This Treaty with South Africa can be regarded not so much as a final document fixing trade relations between the two countries for all time, or for five years, but as a beginning of the establishment of those relations in treaty form which can be elaborated on, and which, I have no doubt, will be elaborated upon, when occasion and opportunity offer for the bringing on of new commodities subject to these terms, one way or another.
