Vol. 19 No. 5
I move amendment No. 1, which stands in the name of Senator Seamus Robinson:—
Section 4. To add at the end of the section a new sub-section as follows:—
(3) The Civil Service Regulation Acts, 1924 and 1926, shall not apply to any person employed or appointed by the Minister under this section.
It is not clear from the wording of the schedule of the Civil Service (Regulation) Act, 1924, that persons who would be employed in connection with this undertaking would be excluded from the provisions of that Act. It is obviously desirable that they should be excluded; in other words, that the ordinary procedure for appointing and dismissing such persons as if they were civil servants should not operate. It would, I think, be impossible to work a commercial undertaking on that basis.
I move amendment No. 2:—
New section. Before Section 18 to insert a new section as follows:—
18.—(1) The Minister shall cause to be kept, in respect of every business carried on by him under this Act, all proper and usual accounts (in such form as shall be approved of by the Minister for Finance) of all moneys received or expended by him, including a capital account, revenue account, profit and loss account and a balance sheet.
(2) The accounts of the Minister in respect of every business carried on by him under this Act shall, at the end of every accounting year for such business, be transmitted to the Comptroller and Auditor-General, who shall audit, certify and report upon such accounts.
(3) Upon the completion of an audit under this section of the accounts of any business carried on by the Minister under this Act, the Minister shall cause a copy of the balance sheet and profit and loss account as passed by the Comptroller and Auditor-General and a copy of his report to be laid before each House of the Oireachtas.
On the Second Reading I referred to this matter. The only information in the form of figures that the House will get, as the Bill now stands, is that set out in Section 18, which authorises the Minister to receive from the Minister for Finance certain moneys as provided by the Oireachtas and then causes the Minister to pay into the Exchequer any moneys received under the Bill. If there is no profit or no available cash, the public and the Parliament will know nothing whatever about the trading operations of this experiment. That does not seem right or proper. Under the Slaughter of Animals Bill the Minister takes power to engage in trading operations in connection with canning, dealing with old cows, etc., and he undertakes to give full accounts to the Oireachtas in due course—a profit and loss account, balance sheet, etc. I think it is only reasonable that the Minister should be asked to do this in the case of industrial alcohol. I am not tied to the exact wording of the amendment, which is taken actually verbatim, with one or two small alterations for the purpose of adaptation, from the Slaughter of Animals Bill. It is the principle I am concerned about, and if the Minister accepts the principle the amendment can be put in suitable form.
It is not quite correct to say that all the information which members of the Oireachtas will obtain as to the activities of the Minister for Industry and Commerce under this Bill will arise under Section 18 in relation to money actually paid into or received from the Exchequer. The report contemplated under Section 17 will, I think, give fairly complete information upon financial as well as other matters, in so far as one of the main activities of the Minister under the Bill is to receive and pay out money, and he has got to report on all his proceedings under the Bill. If, however, the Senator considers it desirable that there should be inserted a section requiring the Minister to keep all proper and usual accounts, I am quite prepared to produce on the Report Stage an amendment to that effect. These accounts, like all accounts relating to public money, will, of course, in the ordinary way be submitted to the Comptroller and Auditor-General and would be reported on by him if, in his opinion, a report were called for. I do not know, however, that it is desirable in relation to this particular measure that we should ask the Comptroller and Auditor-General to submit a special report or that these particular accounts enumerated should be published.
The proceedings under this Bill are somewhat different from those under the Slaughter of Animals Bill. In that case the accounts relate to an undertaking which is a commercial undertaking, initiated as such, intended to be run as such, and intended to produce a commercial profit at the end of the year. In this case we are undertaking something which is admittedly an experiment. The capital of the undertaking is being provided by Vote from the Dáil and is regarded as a Vote for experimentation. It is possible that it may prove to be remunerative expenditure as well, but even if that possibility were not there, it is quite possible in theory that the expenditure would, nevertheless, be undertaken for the purpose of getting the information which it is hoped that the experiment will provide.
I think, therefore, that it would be in a sense unfair, certainly during the initial stages, to regard this enterprise in the same light as the commercial enterprise with which the Minister for Agriculture is associated under the other Bill. I am quite prepared to move an amendment providing that all proper and usual accounts should be kept, as I prefer that to the particular phrase that we should enumerate the particular accounts, because there may be reasons why different accounts should be kept. I do not claim to be speaking with authority on the matter. These accounts would, of course, under the Exchequer and Audit Acts be submitted to the Comptroller and Auditor-General and any matter that required to be brought to the attention of the Oireachtas in the opinion of the Comptroller and Auditor-General would appear in his annual report.
I hope the Minister will do something of the kind, because I think the principle is right, even though he may make a good case that it is not absolutely essential in this case. I also hope that the practice will be adopted in this case of showing a profit and loss account for the year. That does not mean that in considering it you should judge it simply as a commercial concern, but it does mean that it is easier for the ordinary person to judge its value and success. For instance, if you take post office accounts which, some time ago, I spent a considerable time examining in connection with the Postal Commission, it is extremely difficult to judge them and to estimate them from the business point of view. Even if this experiment showed considerable loss, that does not mean it would not be justified. It would be better to have the figures showing income and expenditure, and I hope the principle will be adopted of a profit and loss account such as is presented in the ordinary course of business. This will be more readily understood in connection with a concern of this kind. I think the Minister would find it easier himself to judge the position with such an account available.
Would profit and loss include interest on capital expenditure?
Of course it would.
Then that would not be fair. If there is any profit and loss account it should be one showing the cost of the working for the year and the income.
When I said of course it would, I meant it would only include it if it was paid.
When discussing the Slaughter of Animals Bill I thought that Section 35 was a very desirable one and fitted in with the plea put forward by me, and others in the past, in connection with semi-governmental or governmental concerns. I thought that was adopted in the Slaughter of Animals Bill as part of a definite policy. But I am sorry to find now from the statement made by the Minister that I was mistaken. I cannot see any difference between the industrial activities under the Industrial Alcohol Bill from those undertaken by the Minister under the Slaughter of Animals Bill. In one case it is an experiment which is not expected to be profitable, taken alone, and in the other it is clearly an experiment not expected to be profitable at all in the ordinary business sense. Both are to be financed by moneys provided by the Oireachtas. I am not saying anything about the form or the number of the accounts that ought to be submitted. But as all moneys for agricultural problems have to be discussed with the financial authorities, and as there are numbers of these forms under the Cattle and Sheep Bill, it appears to me it would be convenient for that procedure to be adopted in connection with the Industrial Alcohol Bill. The Minister can take it, and it would be a mistake to assume otherwise, that none of these experiments is likely to be profitable taken by itself; and the public will have that present to their minds, so that whatever is justifiable under the Slaughter of Animals Bill seems to me to be justifiable under the Industrial Alcohol Bill. I think it is not enough to say, what the Minister has said, that if there is anything that the Comptroller and Auditor-General wished to call attention to he will call upon it. I think it is desirable that the auditor's statement should be formally signed by the Comptroller and Auditor-General whether there is anything to call special attention to or not.
I do not propose to pursue the details of this matter. The Minister has given us a general undertaking with which I am quite satisfied. With regard to the actual form of the accounts I set far less store by a profit and loss account than a costs account But I would like if a costs account would be supplied——
If I may interrupt the Senator that is what is to be contained in the report. That is the matter we want to find out, and that is what will be reported upon.
That is what I am chiefly concerned with, but I would like to see that linked up with the ordinary orthodox accounts. I would not be content with figures not supported by an orthodox balance sheet. However that is a technical matter which I leave to the Minister.
Before we pass away from this Bill I call attention to Section 14 in which the Minister takes powers to grant licences for the manufacture of industrial alcohol. I understand there is a considerable amount of industrial alcohol being manufactured in Dublin for industrial purposes. Would that be interfered with?
Alcohol for industrial purposes and use for various industrial processes is imported. We desire to replace that.
But is it not made here near the Phoenix Park?
No, that concern has been closed down.
