I am a little disappointed that the Minister has not thought it fit to give the House a little more information as to what his plans are when he is empowered, as the Bill empowers him, to establish the society. When this matter was under discussion in the other House, questions were asked of the Acting Minister—the Minister being, I regret, ill at the time —as to some more precise information in respect of the form the society would take, and, in particular, what relation it would bear to the existing organisation to which the Minister has referred. The Taoiseach, who was acting Minister for Defence, admitted frankly that he was not conversant with what plans had been formed by the Minister for Defence in regard to the society, but said that the various matters raised would receive consideration. He went further and said, in the debate on the Second Reading, that he had tried to get information on that particular point, that is, the relation of the proposed society to existing organisations, before the Committee Stage of the Bill in order to see what advances had been made in designing the new organisation. On the Committee Stage, there was no debate, and the Bill went through without any discussion, if I am not mistaken. I had hoped, however, that the Minister would have been able to tell us to-day something of what was in his mind, and of which his deputy was not able to inform the Dáil.
The Minister has naturally referred to the very extensive work done for many years past by the St. John Ambulance Brigade. He has been misinformed in thinking that the brigade limits its operations to Dublin and Cork. It has centres, I think, in many other towns. I know it has centres in some, and during the time when there was more demand for its services, it had centres in places other than the two cities he mentioned. We are all familiar with the very comprehensive and broad-minded work which that organisation undertakes in its attendance at assemblies of all sorts, where these members voluntarily give up their spare time in doing public service to those who attend these assemblies. Whatever the nature of the assemblies —sporting events, football matches, race meetings and political and religious meetings—voluntary, unpaid services have been for many years given free to the public. What I should like to know from the Minister is what he has in mind as to the relation of the new organisation to that existing organisation.
I am not making any positive suggestion to him. I am not suggesting that he might do what I think might be in his power, that is, to recognise the St. John Ambulance Brigade as the Irish Red Cross Society because there may be objections with which I am not familiar and also, I am not altogether sure that the St. John Ambulance Brigade would welcome giving up the independence and freedom it has at the moment in order to put itself more or less under Government control. I am not suggesting that they would be willing or unwilling to do that. I do not know, but it is a matter that should be considered by the Minister and his advisers before he makes other plans. In particular, I would suggest that whatever society he decides to set up, steps should be taken in advance to secure that it works, as I am quite sure it would, in hearty co-operation with existing voluntary organisations. That has happened in the neighbouring country in the past. The St. John Ambulance Brigade there has been very active in times of peace and of war. The British Red Cross Society has been active almost altogether in time of war, except that since the Great War it has certain accumulated funds which it spends very generously in charity. They are, however, accumulated funds which are gradually being decreased in amount, and are not being hoarded up. There is, I think, no new activity undertaken by that society in time of peace.
I am not suggesting that such a society should not undertake new activities, but pointing out that in the neighbouring country, whether by a tacit understanding or an explicit understanding, these two organisations work side by side in a very friendly way, it being understood that the main activity of the Red Cross Society is in time of war and the other society has an equal place in time of peace, and is also willing to help in time of war.
I hope the Minister and his advisers who are planning this society will have full consultations with those who can speak for the St. John Ambulance Brigade. The setting up of a society under Government control and with Government aid—and, I would say, parenthetically, that the giving of Government aid is rather a deterrent to the giving of voluntary subscriptions to such a society—quite possibly might have the effect of limiting very definitely the activities of the present organisation, and I think that would be, in itself, a great misfortune to the country. That might readily happen before the new society would have gained the experience which that society has. I think it is quite natural that the Minister should ask the Oireachtas to pass such a Bill as this in order to bring the country into line-with the undertakings they have made with other countries in regard to the Red Cross Conventions. So much as comment, rather than criticism, on the general purposes of the Bill.
There are some of the sections which are likely to cause considerable embarrassment in their carrying out, and, particularly, Sections 4 and 5, which refer to the use of the red cross, on one hand, and the white cross on a red background, on the other. As matters stand at present, it is compulsory by law on certain factories—I think it is the general regulation in regard to factory control—to have as part of their equipment a box or cupboard containing first-aid equipment. It is stated in the regulations that every box or cupboard shall be distinctively marked, and, "if newly provided after the date of this Order, shall be marked plainly with a white cross on a red background" and shall contain such and such equipment for red cross work. The quotation I have read is from the regulation concerning laundries. That regulation is compulsory on all laundry proprietors in this country. It would seem that once this Bill becomes law, if a laundry man obeys that regulation, he will be subject to very heavy penalties under this Bill. He will be subject, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding £10, and the court may also order that the goods in relation to which the offence was committed be forfeited. What is the unfortunate laundryman to do? I wonder has the Minister had the Bill examined by the Department of his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, because, as the thing stands—it is capable of remedy—it would cause great confusion to the trade, of which there are an enormous number of branches in this country. I think the quotation I have read is a common one in regulations concerning factories and such places, but I happened to come on this one first.
