Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 6 Mar 1940

Vol. 24 No. 7

Offences Against the State (Amendment) Bill, 1940. - Fire Brigades Bill, 1939—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Dr. Ward)

The purpose of this Bill is to require all sanitary authorities to make reasonable provision for fire-fighting services in their districts. The Bill also lays down a form of procedure regarding the inspection of buildings, and the service of notices on the proprietors of dangerous buildings, so as to ensure the maximum protection for life and property in the event of fire. At present rural sanitary authorities have no power to provide fire brigades, that power being restricted to county boroughs and the towns to which the Towns Improvement Act, 1854, applies. Under the provisions of the Bill, the sanitary authority may themselves provide a fire brigade with the necessary machinery and equipment, or they may make an arrangement with an adjoining fire brigade authority or other body for the use of the fire brigade service maintained by that body. It may be found that greater efficiency, combined with economy, can be secured in many cases if the brigades to be established have a wide area of operation, and my Department, in the administration of the Bill, will encourage any necessary steps towards reasonable unification of local control.

Even in towns where fire brigades already exist, the present law in regard to the inspection and control of buildings is inadequate, and Sections 7 and 8 are among the most important provisions of the present Bill. These sections give the local authority power to inspect all buildings for the purpose of ascertaining whether they would constitute an exceptional risk to life or property in the event of fire. If the sanitary authority, as a result of the inspection, are of opinion that a building comes within the definition of a "potentially dangerous" building, whether by reason of the numbers of persons resorting to it, the absence of means of extinguishing fires or of escape, the material of which the building is constructed, or the nature of the articles stored in it, the local authority will have power to serve a notice on the proprietor requiring him to cease to use the building for the purpose which renders it dangerous, or to carry out specified alterations. The proprietor has a right of appeal to the District Court against such a notice.

If this Bill becomes law the obligation to provide fire-fighting services will rest on the sanitary authority in each district. Town commissioners are not sanitary authorities, and the Bill contains provision accordingly for the transfer to the sanitary authority of fire brigades, apparatus, etc., at present maintained by town commissioners. As all expenses incurred in connection with the administration of the powers conferred by this Bill will be chargeable on the whole sanitary district, including, in the case of county health districts, the areas of towns under town commissioners, the responsibilities of the sanitary authorities would overlap with the present powers of town commissioners if the latter were left unaltered.

In the event of a sanitary authority failing to make reasonable provision for fire-fighting services after the Bill comes into force in its district, complaint may be made of such default to the Minister, who is empowered to have the complaint inquired into and, if found proven, to require the sanitary authority to comply with its responsibilities in the matter. This procedure will constitute the only remedy against the local authority. No action will lie against them in connection with damage to persons or property as a result of fire.

A day will be appointed for bringing the Bill into force in each sanitary district. In districts where fire brigades are already functioning it may be possible to bring it into force immediately; in other districts it will be necessary to allow a reasonable time for the local authority to consider whether they should provide their own service or enter into an agreement with an adjoining local authority, and in the latter event, to conclude the necessary agreement.

Mr. Baxter

There is not very much by way of contention in this measure. There is, I think, one vital point to which I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to address himself in replying. I think it will be generally conceded that the country would be better off, even in normal times, if we were better equipped with fire-fighting apparatus throughout the country generally.

Now this Bill is making it obligatory on sanitary authorities to provide fire fighting equipment within their areas or in conjunction with the sanitary authority in an adjoining area and if they will not do it the Minister is going to see, when somebody writes up to him that they will not procure it, that they will be required to procure it.

I understand the position at the moment is that all this equipment has to be imported and that a revenue duty is imposed on these machines. I want to get it quite clear if that is the position, because if it is, local authorities are going to be confronted with a situation which seems to me ridiculous and absurd. It looks as if we are all out to get revenue and that we must get it justly or unjustly. These machines are not machines which can be procured or are being manufactured in this country. In a good work people ought to be encouraged, but in a case like this, where they are not going to injure any local industry, and where the importers of these machines are not going to be put into competition or to put something we have locally out of existence, what is the justification for imposing a tax other than to collect revenue? If we are reduced to straits like that to obtain revenue, it is impossible for this State to survive. It does not seem just and above all, it does not seem sensible.

I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that inasmuch as these machines are machines which local authorities will be compelled to buy, that local taxation everywhere is sufficiently high to justify local authorities being permitted to import any machines requisite for fire fighting purposes free of duty. There can be no justification for the imposition of the duty on such machines when they are not being manufactured in the country. I think there is general agreement that the Bill can be a useful measure but it ought not to be used in a harsh way and I suggest, A Leas-Chathaoirligh, if I understand the position aright, that the first step the Parliamentary Secretary should take, in order to make his measure acceptable to the country, is to see that the duty imposed some time ago should be removed.

Mr. Fitzgerald

In Section 5 of this Bill, the Minister or the Government takes power to insist that these appropropriate bodies shall provide fire fighting arrangements. Now, I cannot say anything against that but I myself had experience of two fires in Continental towns—one a large town, a very well known town, and the fighting of that fire was very adequately done. The moment the fire was notified the brigade came forward. That brigade was a brigade of volunteers. In the other place, a much smaller town, I happened to be one of the volunteers fighting the fire.

Now, we are passing this Bill imposing on the local ratepayers the obligation to provide equipment and organisation. I do not see why in this country every time there is any such service required the people have got to provide it through the payment of rates. I do not see why the idea of service should be utterly repugnant to the people and that nobody should be asked to give voluntary service for the general good.

I have only glanced through the Bill but I would like it to presuppose, as in the large urban areas already equipped with fire-fighting equipment, that when it comes to smaller areas there should be voluntary organisation for the maintenance of the fire-fighting equipment. I would like to know if the Minister anticipates that there should be a voluntary system or whether the unfortunate taxpayers are going to be asked to impose on themselves the cost of maintaining further employees and increasing the burden of rates. Apart from the mere economy of it, I do feel that in this country the idea of voluntary service for the general good is overlooked. A lot of the work we are paying for could be done by volunteers, and especially when it comes to small communities the natural thing should be that they would have a voluntary organisation that would periodically meet and be available in case of need.

Mr. Goulding

I thoroughly agree with Senator Fitzgerald that an effort should be made to encourage local bodies to form voluntary brigades. The reason I speak so strongly on this matter is that in the town in which I live we had a very dangerous fire lately. Two houses were practically gutted and were it not for the fact that volunteers came forward and did what Senator Fitzgerald points out would be a useful thing, the fire would have been far worse than it actually was. One thing struck me very forcibly and it would need looking after. The Bill at the moment confines itself to each sanitary district. In many districts the nearest fire brigade is in another sanitary district, possibly in another county, and in the case to which I referred a moment ago the Cork fire brigade had to be summoned. That brigade had to drive 40 miles and when they came to the town the hose fittings were not of the same standards as the hydrants in the town and they were, therefore, useless.

It would be advisable that there should be some co-operation between the various sanitary areas in the country. If by any chance a brigade had to be summoned from a neighbouring county area there should be no doubt but that the hose fittings would fit the local hydrants so that there would be no danger of a brigade being summoned and, after dashing to the place, finding their hoses and other equipment useless. Many of the sanitary areas in the country are practically all rural areas. There may be one or two large towns, but the greater portion of the area would be composed of small villages and towns. In many of these towns there is no water supply at all, and in others the water supply is rather inadequate and the pressure that could be generated would be so low that it would be almost useless in a hose.

There is a difficulty there and I think it could be surmounted if some central area were taken in a county and a brigade established in that area so that it would not be outside a 20 mile radius of any portion of the sanitary district, because it would be obviously impossible to have a fire brigade in every town and village in the county or sanitary district. On the other hand, where a water supply is available, I thoroughly agree with Senator Fitzgerald that every effort should be made to get volunteer bodies to act with the local Gárdaí and hold an occasional practice so that when a fire would occur there would be no danger of panic and the men would know what to do. In the case of my own town, the volunteers had no previous practice.

Mr. Fitzgerald

They had no previous organisation?

Mr. Goulding

No.

Mr. Fitzgerald

They should have.

Mr. Goulding

They had none except that the local town commissioners had provided a fire hose. However, it could not have been effective but for the action of the volunteers who came forward at their own risk. They got wet to the skin, spoiled their clothes, and ran the risk of catching pneumonia. I think that in such cases there should be special clothing available so that the volunteers could guard themselves against such dangers. Oilcloth overcoats or helmets would be a safeguard against the dangers that the men referred to encountered.

There is nothing to be said against the Bill—everybody is in support, and, after what happened in my own town, everyone is crying out that it should have been brought in long before. At the moment there are fairly large towns in every county exposed to terrible dangers. In many cases hydrants are provided, but the pressure is so low when the hose is attached—very often after it has been years in storage without attention—it is not very effective. Another trouble is that the fittings on the hydrants are almost rusted. All these things require constant attention if unfortunate results are to be avoided. There is nothing to be said except in favour of the Bill.

The McGillycuddy

I should like to draw attention to the fact that the Bill does not seem to deal with water supplies, and that the Minister has given us extremely little information. As a matter of fact, I had an example in my own town where the water supply was very poor. Up to last year, they had to save the water for three days in order to have sufficient to wash porter glasses on Puck fair day. I think we are entitled to know before the ratepayers are asked to provide this large amount of money what these services are likely to cost, how many brigades we have now, and how many more are required. I put this question because the cost of the Bill seems to fall entirely on the ratepayers. At the same time, letters are being sent to the county councils saying: "You must keep down your rates because you have got them so high already that the ratepayers cannot meet them, and you have to work on overdrafts". I have seen a letter like that during the past week. At the same time we see a certain amount of camouflage carried on in the fact that there is a reduction in the Estimates in the Vote for the Department of Local Government.

I think we should have some actuarial figures before we incur any liability for an expenditure of this kind, particularly at a critical time like this when we are urged by the Government to reduce expenditure. There is an enormous variation in the areas of the different sanitary authorities and some of these authorities will have to bear an altogether disproportionate expenditure in setting up these fire brigades. I think it will be entirely unjust if the Government insists on these schemes being carried out without giving any assistance towards them. Finally, has the Minister got any actuarial figures from insurance companies as to the danger of fire in this country now, as compared with ten or 20 years ago, or as to the danger of fire in this country compared with other countries? All these are matters about which we should have some information before we pass this Bill. Then there is the question of the personnel of the brigades. Having regard to the present position in the City of Dublin —you will find the definition of "fire brigade" in Section 1—I suggest that the personnel of the fire brigades should be organised on the French system under which members of the fire brigade are not allowed to strike. Their emoluments are fixed by the State and they are exactly in the same position as a member of the Gárda or of the Army. They are available to save State property or ratepayers' property at any time whatever.

Mr. Honan

We are all agreed that some fire-fighting machinery is necessary in every town but this Bill will mean an additional burden on the already overtaxed ratepayers and I think some provision should be made for a contribution from some other source. The most that an urban authority can do is to provide the machinery and the fire-fighting forces must be organised on a voluntary basis. It is very discouraging to such voluntary workers to find that they get very little sympathy from anybody after a fire. I have known cases where such men turned out to a fire in their Sunday clothes. Their clothes were rendered useless—they were ruined, in fact, and yet the insurance companies would not contribute a penny towards making good the damage these men suffered in giving their services voluntarily. These services were given more for the benefit of the insurance companies than for the benefit of anybody else. I do not know if a provision could be embodied in this legislation that insurance companies who receive very heavy premiums—even in a small town they receive a couple of thousand pounds in the year—should be compelled or induced to contribute in some way towards making good the loss suffered by these voluntary workers on the occasions of fires. My experience has been that not alone do these workers suffer damage to their clothes and to their bodies, but their enthusiasm has also suffered when they find that nobody has any sympathy with them, not even to the extent of providing them with new suits of clothes. I know that fire brigades are necessary but I am wondering if the Minister could devise any means, such as a small levy on the insurance companies, to create a fund out of which voluntary workers would be indemnified against personal losses.

Mr. Hawkins

I think we should all welcome this Bill. To my mind, it provides for one of the most urgent needs in the country at present. We have all had the experience from time to time of taking up a paper and of reading of some shocking fire. The necessity for having proper fire-fighting appliances in every town is then brought home to us. I think that where the preservation of life is concerned, there should be no question of expense. The only question that should enter our minds is how to have an efficient service. That should be the prime consideration in the case of fire-fighting as in every other service— to have the service efficient. An important consideration in this connection is to see that fittings throughout the country are of a standard type. Anybody who knows anything about plumbing will appreciate that there are different makes of fittings and different couplings. One coupling will not fit into another of a different type. If the fire brigade from a certain district is sent to an adjoining district, it is possible that the fittings in that district are of a type different from the fittings in the district from which the brigade came, and the fire brigade would then find that they are practically unable to render any assistance. In connection with the inspection of premises, I think a good deal can be done by that means to eliminate the possibility of fire at all. We all know of hotels and restaurants where large numbers of people congregate and where no proper provision is made to cope with an outbreak of fire. I do not think that a voluntary brigade service would be practicable because the members of such a brigade would have to attend to their ordinary work during the day and it might be found that they would be very far apart when a fire occurred. I do not think a voluntary service will provide a very efficient service. I hold that expense should not be considered in this matter. It is an important matter, and it is only when its importance is brought home to us when we read of deaths at fires that we see the necessity for the Bill.

Mrs. Concannon

The title of this Bill—Fire Brigades Bill—is not, I think, exactly fortunate because what the Government and all of us really have in mind is fire-fighting and fire prevention which goes a good deal beyond the mere providing of fire brigades. I know that the matters touched on by the various Senators were before the minds of the framers of the Bill, but very important also is the attitude of the people in respect of fires. I think there should be some sort of training for everybody so that they may know what to do in case of fires and so that they will not lose their heads. That is very important and it is very important, too, that all householders should see that there are no defective electrical fittings in their houses. A very common cause of fire in old houses arises from putting new fireplaces over old joints near the ground. Several fires have occurred in the middle of the night from this cause and people ought to know the dangers. I do not know what means could be adopted, but if fire brigades were organised in the bigger centres, lectures could be given on how to act in case of fire and on the ordinary precautions that anybody can take. There is a danger of fire in nearly every house now and everybody should know, in a rough kind of way, how to take the initial steps to prevent it.

Dr. Ward

The first point raised by Senator Baxter as to importation free of duty can, I think, be met under existing conditions. So far as fire engines are concerned, and I think, most of the fire-fighting appliances, such as ladders, which are imported, on application to the Revenue Commissioners for a licence, permission to import free of duty is given. I cannot take it upon myself definitely to state that permission is invariably given, but so far as I know it is the usual practice to permit importation free of duty.

Mr. Baxter

I want to be clear on this because I am certain I read some time ago of a local authority close to Dublin which proposed to bring in a second engine. I think there was considerable duty payable on it and, as a result, the proposal was dropped.

Dr. Ward

I will look into the point, but that is my information at the moment, that the Revenue Commissioners give a licence to import free of duty. There may have been some other reason why it was not given in the instance the Senator has mentioned, but I will look into it between now and the next Stage. Senator Fitzgerald, Senator Goulding, and most of the Senators who spoke, raised the matter of voluntary services in fire-fighting. I hope that under the Bill we shall be at least able to maintain the voluntary effort that has been made in the past, and indeed to extend and improve it. If, under the operation of the Bill, we have one reasonably well-equipped and reasonably well staffed fire brigade in each county, I think we would be doing fairly well.

I hope to be able to get a degree of co-ordination between the various sanitary authorities. There may be three or four towns in a county, and a number of villages in a rural sanitary district, and we hope, under the managerial system, to get a considerable degree of co-ordination in regard to the fire-fighting equipment and services established in the county. A town and, very possibly, the largest town, or the town with the best fire-fighting equipment at the moment, would, in all probability, become the central fire-fighting station for the particular area. I think that some small trained personnel, employed on a more or less permanent basis, will be necessary, but it is intended that we should enlist the services of the general community and avail of the services of the trained personnel to train the general body of people who volunteer for fire-fighting services in the different areas.

As to the question of cost, I cannot give Senator The McGillycuddy any actuarial figures as to what the fire-fighting services which may be set up under the Bill may ultimately cost. It will depend on a variety of circumstances and will be governed, in the main, by the steps which a local authority considers it wise to take in order to be in a position to cope with any outbreak of fire in its area. Some sanitary authorities will probably be more easily satisfied as to the precautions necessary than others, and some will probably spend less under the Bill than others.

On the question of water supply, it is quite true that we have not an adequate and efficient water supply in every town in Ireland, but it is also true to say that we have an adequate water supply in a very large number of towns and villages and that, in recent years, we have made very rapid advances in the provision of adequate water supplies in our towns. Where an adequate water supply is not available, it would be unreasonable to ask a sanitary authority to provide fire-fighting services. Sub-section (1) of Section 2 says:—

"Every sanitary authority shall make reasonable provision for the prompt and efficient extinguishing of fires ..."

and it would be unreasonable to ask any sanitary authority to establish a fire-fighting service in an area where no water was available. We hope to continue the provision of water supplies, to improve the systems where they require improvement and to provide water and sewerage systems in the towns and villages in which they are not available at present. That, too, however, is a matter of finance and, apart from the financial end of it, there are very often geographical and other difficulties which make progress in that direction fairly slow.

The question of standardisation has been raised by Senators Goulding and Hawkins, and I think by some other Senators. That is an important point, but at the same time I do not think there is the degree of chaos that has been suggested by some of the speakers here, or that there is a real danger that, if a fire brigade is called in from a neighbouring area, they will not be able to avail of the water supply because of the fact that the equipment is not standardised. It may occur, and especially in areas where the water supply has been put in many years ago and where standards may have changed considerably, but in so far as recent water supplies are concerned an effort has been made in my Department to secure standardisation of fittings as far as it is possible to do so. I understand that so far as hydrants and hose connections are concerned, there is now a uniform standard, in general.

Mr. Honan

Many adaptors are used now by which you can adapt the different sizes to each other.

Dr. Ward

Quite. I do not know that any other point has been raised that it is necessary to deal with. Senator Mrs. Concannon raised the point of the training of the general community. Well, as I said earlier, to a limited extent that will be possible under the operation of the Bill. If we have even one person in a county trained and skilled in fire-fighting I think that, by a series of lectures, instructions and demonstrations at different centres in the county, we ought to be able, even with that one man, to build up a fire-fighting service that might be of tremendous use to us in a time of crisis.

The McGillycuddy of the Reeks

Before the debate concludes, I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary one question. He has dealt very fairly with all the questions that have been raised except one. It seems to me that, in the light of existing experience and the various appliances for fire-fighting that exist in certain districts in this country and elsewhere, it should be possible for the Parliamentary Secretary to give us some figure, even an approximate figure, of what the cost of this is going to be to the whole country. I think that we are very prone in these days to take on legislation of a similar nature to this without going into the possible cost, and I should like to know if the Minister could give us an approximate figure or a general idea of what this is going to cost the ratepayers to carry on—even for a certain area. Perhaps the Minister could give us some information on the Committee Stage of the Bill.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I think that the proposal put forward by Senator The McGillycuddy is a very reasonable one. Normally, when bringing in legislation before the Oireachtas, it is a matter for action by the Government, and when the action of the Government brings in any activity an estimate is generally given of what the cost will be. It seems to me that there is a certain amount of irresponsibility in the fact that we should legislate here, not to impose a duty on the Government, but for the Government to impose a duty on somebody else, without some idea being given of the cost. The Dáil insists that an idea of the cost should be given and, as we are now proposing to put on additional taxation, I think it is eminently right that we should have some idea as to the cost, and I imagine that the Parliamentary Secretary and his Department——

Mr. McEllin

How many Second Stage speeches are there to be?

Mr. Fitzgerald

Well, I was only just re-enforcing a request that has been made, and I should be very pleased, if on the next stage of the Bill the Parliamentary Secretary could give us some figures. We will not tie him down to any exact figure, but perhaps he could give us some reasonable idea.

Mr. Honan

At the risk of being out of order, I also should like to ask in what way voluntary members of a fire brigade would be compensated for personal losses—I do not mean for their work, but for personal losses, such as destruction of their clothes that may result from their work.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Goulding)

There is no necessity to re-open the debate. All these matters can be raised on the Committee Stage.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Fitzgerald

Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary can tell us whether he can give us some guidance, during the Committee Stage, on the lines we suggested.

Dr. Ward

I shall look into the matter but I have not much hope of being able to give any estimate that will be even approximately accurate.

Mr. Fitzgerald

Even if the Minister could give us figures for even one case, it might enable us to form some idea.

The McGillycuddy

As things are, we do not know whether it will be £1,000,000 or £100,000.

Dr. Ward

Well, assume that it will be £100,000 and you will be on the safe side.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday next, 13th March.