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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 26 Oct 1949

Vol. 37 No. 2

Monetary Policy of the State—Motion.

I move:—

That in the opinion of Seanad Éireann the monetary policy of the State should be re-examined in the light of the situation arising out of the British Government's devaluation of the £.

As the first proposer of this motion, I want to make it quite clear that I am not going to criticise the actions of any particular Irish Government. In fact, as far as Irish Governments or Irish political Parties are concerned, I do not propose to go back beyond to-day, Wednesday, October 26th, at 4 o'clock in the afternoon. On the question of the monetary policy of this country, what chiefly interests me is "Where do we go from here?" But before I could answer that question, or anyone could answer it, it is important to inquire how we got here.

And where we are.

The navigation officer sets his course when at sea, first of all in terms of where he is going to—it is very important to know clearly where he is going to—and, secondly, in terms of where he is coming from; that is the course he has been following. If he does not know the course he has been following, he cannot set an exact course—or, indeed, any kind of course —into the future. In this supremely important matter of parity or disparity with the British £, I wonder how many citizens of this country—I will not say distinguished members of this House— could set out exactly on an historical chart the course which this country has not so much been following but has been forced to follow for almost the last 150 years.

Not long ago, in a glass show-case in our Municipal Museum in Belfast, I saw a tax receipt for County Derry, dated 1811 and showing the amount collected in Irish currency. It struck me as being a very interesting thing to show to the citizens of Belfast. I wondered how many of them, looking into that show-case, realised the significance of the words "Irish currency". How many citizens of Dublin could tell you offhand that the Irish £ fluctuated freely in relation to the English £ right up to the second decade of the last century?

To leave the ordinary citizens of Belfast, Dublin and the 32 counties of Ireland out of it, how many members of Seanad Éireann ever troubled themselves in the past about that curious sequence of historical events that brings what I call the shotgun wedding of the Irish and British currencies in 1825, first in time, and what we call "the Starvation" of 1846 and 1847 following very closely behind it. I say "first in time" because it may be post hoc propter hoc reasoning to connect the two historical events. That is for some young Irish economist to decide. I suggest this as a thesis for the students of our universities—the fact that we had this shotgun wedding of the two currencies in 1825 and that the next great historical event we had in Irish history was the tragedy of the Starvation. Whether the relationship exists exactly in sequence or not, is it not as plain as a pikestaff that, after that shotgun wedding of the two currencies, we had lost any real control over our national destiny— not only over the extent of our population but over the kind of employment we could offer to those left behind here after the tragic experience of the great trek to America and the coffin ships?

Why, as a nation, did we not see more clearly what was happening? Why, as a nation, do we not see it more clearly to-day, even in retrospect? I think there is a very understandable reason. We were engaged in the first stage of our struggle for national sovereignty, the struggle for political freedom. Dublin Castle had to be destroyed. But in the struggle with Dublin Castle, Irishmen very naturally lost sight of another and still more powerful symbol in the background, the former Irish Parliament House in College Green, the Parliament House which had become a bank. The English poet Shelley saw its significance at a glance. It is a way that poets have: they have it not only as the unacknowledged legislators of the world but also as the mirrors of the great and cloudy issues of the future, the mirrors in which those issues are reflected. What Shelley said when he saw the Bank of Ireland was: "They have turned the fane of liberty into a temple of man". How many of us realised the significance of that sermon in stone? We pass it every day on the tops of buses. It is unique in Europe, I think. I do not think any other nation in Europe has such a sermon in stone, such a blossoming of the very historical process itself, in part of its capital city and, if we cannot realise the significance in any other way, let us ask ourselves in this House to-day, why are we sitting in this House and not, by right, in our former Parliament House?

At this point I fear I must disappoint all those who expect a critic of monetary policy to burst into wild diatribes about "wicked bankers". I want to persuade many people in this country, I want particularly to persuade one of our outstanding national newspapers, also, I want to persuade the present Minister for Agriculture that no intelligent monetary reformer regards bankers, even central bankers, as bad, wicked men. Nor does any intelligent monetary reformer believe that the cure for all our economic ills consists in printing bank notes ad libitum. All we believe about bankers is that it is disastrous to try to run a 20th-century world on 19th-century lines and particularly disastrous when you happen to control such a key instrument as finance.

Mr. Montagu Norman was probably a zealous and extremely efficient official but the more zealous and the more efficient he was the greater was the resulting mess. What I would do if I were an Englishman would be to thank God that Mr. Montagu Norman had not been the Archangel Gabriel because, if he had been the Archangel Gabriel, and had been carrying out the same policy, the result would have been an even more disastrous mess in so far as the Archangel Gabriel would have been still more efficient and still more zealous than Mr. Montagu Norman.

As proof that monetary reformers are not necessarily morons, I want to read, with your permission, a Chathaoirligh, a portion of a leader from The New English Weekly dealing with Ireland. It appeared, to the best of my recollection, about the year 1939. I quoted it in the pamphlet called Eamon de Valera Doesn't See It Through and I got my head in my hand for doing so. I would just like to read what this English newspaper had to say about us and our affairs and I would particularly address this quotation to the present Minister for Agriculture. This English journal says:—

"We know that Irishmen will fight like lions for their political independence or isolation: but when it comes to taking charge of their own accounts, they are as easily cowed as anybody else. We are not forgetting the highly intelligent Minority Report issued by Ireland's Commission on the National Finances a few years ago: but when it comes to action the melancholy truth is that Ireland has never put up a fight, on principle, for financial freedom. Irishmen will prefer phthisis, rheumatism, and swamps to the admittedly difficult task of telling their financiers that they must either produce the needful credit instruments without debt, or give up their jobs to someone else who will. It is a pity; for Ireland will never have better ground on which to offer battle to the banko-cracy——

that is a new word to me—

——than this drainage question. Ireland is a wet, flat country, almost as dependent upon field drains as some arid lands are dependent upon irrigation.... Work such as this, improving and regulating the interaction between a country's soil and its water, is the very foundation of its fertility, life, and prosperity: yet it is precisely this kind of work, the most important of all, of which the financial mind is least able to conceive the value. A few readers have occasionally grudged the amount of attention that this journal has given to questions of soil, water, and fertility: but we find no better instances of the absurdity and artificiality of current financial valuations than they exhibit when applied, as in this instance of Ireland, to the values which are the most real and physical of all."

These are some of the monetary reformers talking, and I hope the present Minister for Agriculture—and more power to the work he is doing— will note that it was the monetary reformers who for the past 20 years have been advocating exactly the kind of work he is doing now. In other words, we said the national credit should be made available for socially useful purposes, and to and behold, the Minister for Agriculture—and more power to him—has at any rate made a beginning. The difference is that we said the necessary credits should be made available without debt to the community—but that will come in the course of time. One of our major objectives is within sight, because, after all, it is more important that the work should be done than the manner of doing it.

This work now initiated on the soil of Ireland is one bright spot in the picture, but when we turn away from that, when we turn from the question of how the national credit is to be used inside the nation, and the even bigger issues looming beyond that again of the use of credit as a social as opposed to a purely national instrument, we come back to the overriding issue of this debate, which is, in the last analysis, the collision between economic nationalism and international finance. Here, we come back to that and, as the specific point of this motion, we come back in fact to the relation between the Irish and the British pound.

I asked Senators to turn their minds back to 1825, to the point at which the Irish £ ceased to fluctuate in relation to Irish conditions, to the point at which, as a writer in the Irish Monthly has just expressed it, our national economy was tied to the British economy, like a dog below a cart. From that point onwards, British financial imperialism was an increasing factor in world economy. I need not weary this House by reminding it in detail that if Karl Marx was right about nothing else, he was right in holding that capitalist imperialism must lead eventually to war. It did lead to war, in 1914. But, the point I am making for is the situation after the war—to the making of the so-called peace in the Hall of Mirrors in the Palace of Versailles. I think it is a curious thing that history does things like this. It gives us a symbol in our capital which is a whole lesson in stone and it contrives, with some queer sense of humour, that the Peace Treaty of 1918 should be signed in a Hall of Mirrors, a place where the statesmen lost themselves in illusions. What happened in that palace of illusions, the Hall of Mirrors? A number of so-called statesmen, seated around a green table, waved their fountain pens as if they were wands and, hey presto, the galaxy of nations was supposed to be restored, refurbished and resplendent, with, of course, the notable exception of the Irish nation, which, officially, did not exist and was therefore not allowed to be heard.

What the so-called statesmen round that green table did not restore, however—what they positively forbade to be restored on pain of direst penalties —was an economic way of life that took into account the fact of the restored nationalities. The restored nationalities were to be restored only on paper, in the political context of the 18th century and the Congress of Vienna. The moment they set to work —as they inevitably must and did— to industrialise themselves, to exert themselves as factors in the 20th-century scene, they were to be excommunicated in the name of economic and financial imperialism. In brief, the so-called statesmen round the green table set up a new Europe and at the same time took enormous pains to make sure it could never possibly work. They then proceeded to be naively surprised and shocked at the results of their own handiwork.

So much for the Hall of Mirrors. The sequel came 14 years later in an equally ironical setting, as if history was having a little quiet fun on the side—because the sequel came in the Geological Museum, South Kensington. When the World Economic Conference met there in 1933, cattle were being cremated on the Continent of Europe, wine was being poured down drains, drifter-loads of herrings were being dumped back into the North Sea, coffee was being burnt in the fire-boxes of locomotives and crops were being ploughed back into the earth.

And what had the curiosities of international moneylending assembled in a geological museum to say about all this? All they had to say was there must be no interference with the workings of what is ironically called orthodox finance, or still more ironically, sound finance. The world was in process of being governed by what are still called financial experts. A friend of mine once wrote in criticism of a certain well-known financial expert in Britain whom I shall call Mr. X. "Mr. X," he wrote, "knows everything that there is to be known about the financial system except for what it is for." It was, apparently, quite useless to point out to these assembled experts in 1933 that their Mumbo Jumbo of a system just was not working. A little point like that did not worry them in the least.

We all know what followed that disastrous farce called the World Economic Conference of 1933. We had the roaring twenties, followed by what I call the sinister thirties. Hitler roared louder than ever in Germany and well he might, because the breakdown of that conference bred in the minds of the young exactly the mood of despair on which Fascism flourished, and not only Fascism but Communism, State Socialism and the whole tribe of creeds ending in ism. It was, for example, a sad day for LabourSocialism in Britain when it got into its head the strange idea that it was possible fundamentally to alter the conditions of life in Britain by a process of socialising and nationalising the structure of British industry, and at the same time to leave entirely untouched the system by means of which the products of the socialised industries were distributed internationally.

Well, they know who is the master now, because we are back again in the atmosphere of the sinister 'thirties with, as far as the Western world is concerned, international finance still in the saddle, but operating this time even more openly from Wall Street.

I am not saying a word against Americans as such; I think we in this House should acknowledge the bighearted idealism and the staggering generosity of many things the Americans have done in Europe—that is, Americans operating as Americans. Nor am I even accusing international finance, as operated from Wall Street, of wickedness. I am simply accusing it of trying to do the impossible—of trying to bring back the 19th century world. I am accusing it of making exactly the same mistake that prompted those so-called statesmen at Versailles all over again. And what was that attempt in essence? It was the attempt with which we were all only too familiar in the 20th century—the attempt to solve a problem by enlarging it on to a world screen—the attempt to build a good wall by clapping together a lot of rotten bricks. Of course, nations must co-operate, politically, culturally and economically, but does it necessarily follow from that they must have one international currency? I suggest that the attempt to impose one international currency is the nigger in the wood pile of all these otherwise extremely praiseworthy attempts at international co-operation. I suggest, in fact, that just as we cannot co-operate as nations until as nations we are politically free, so in this new century we cannot co-operate in the economic sphere until we are monetarily free—that is, co-operate in any real sense of the word as opposed to veiled economic domination of the weaker by the stronger. And much more practical and learned economists than I am have come to the same conclusion.

During the last war there was published in London, with, I understand, the co-operation of the Economic Reform Club and a considerable degree of backing from the London Chamber of Commerce, a pamphlet called A Twentieth Century Economic System. It was a remarkable publication because in England, of all countries, it acknowledged the facts of the 20th century economic world. It acknowledged the fact that 19th century political nationalism is now inevitably issuing—whether old gentlemen round green baize tables like it or not—in 20th century economic nationalism; that a host of smaller nations are now, and rightly, industrialising themselves; that the old 19th century idea that nations will always welcome cheap imports just because they are cheap is now completely exploded; and that national sentiment being not weaker but stronger than ever, primary producing countries will no longer tolerate the necessity for their citizens to emigrate in order to find congenial occupations, but will seek to provide more varied and congenial occupations at home.

And what machinery did this extremely realistic English pamphlet suggest for the functioning of national and international trade in the western world as it really is? It suggested a system of free national currencies, fluctuating according to the relation between consumption and production within each nation, and linked for the purposes of international trade through the agency of an international exchange—an international exchange through which the nations would trade on a system of blocked credits or, in the last analysis, by account and contra account. Note that it was an international exchange that was suggested—not an international bank, which is a very different thing. Note, too, that these proposals emanated from England, not Ireland. In fact, I have never heard them discussed in Ireland, which was, in fact, the very country in which they should have originated.

And so we arrived back in the 1940's and the original fluctuating national currencies from which we, as a nation, were originally driven to our cost, and almost to our very destruction as a nation by the shotgun wedding of 1825 that integrated the Irish with the British £. Ministers or subsequent speakers may tell me they never heard of the proposals I have just mentioned. I will not weary the House with a detailed account of the unofficial but extremely efficient Press censorship that operates on all ideas about money, and the working of money, that do not tally with the ideas of orthodox finance. But I do want to underline the fact that at least some economists in other countries are aware of the 20th century dilemma of small nations like our own and of the fallacy of shutting one's eyes to the fact that the 19th century is dead and gone. I suggest that in this pamphlet—A Twentieth Century Economic System there is at least a stimulating approach to the problems of international trade in goods and raw materials between nations with free currencies.

Now, in conclusion, there may be speakers who will hold that whatever we think of the present system—whatever we may think of the lamentable financial history of the 21 years between the wars, a history now repeating itself before our eyes—whatever we may think of all that as a system, it is quite impossible at this moment, and in the circumstances at this moment, for a nation like our own to escape from it. That may be so. I say then, if so, let us face the consequences without deceiving ourselves. Are we then going to continue indefinitely the absurdities and anomalies of monetary and financial policy that were so ably exposed by the Minister for External Affairs in his lecture last week on the link with sterling? I refer to the lecture he delivered on Tuesday, 18th October, in the O'Connell Hall. Must we go on putting all our eggs in one and the same basket up to the point at which our much boasted invisible exports may ultimately become entirely and completely invisible, in so far as they will have ceased to exist, and must we go on with the farce of pretending that the Irish £ is exactly equivalent to the British £ when, in fact, the Irish £ has a higher intrinsic value, for the excellent reason that it is based on a sounder economic structure? Two years ago, in New York, I found that the kerb dealers in exchange, the unofficial brokers, and a number of travelling agencies had a firmer faith in our economic structure than—at any rate, officially—we have ourselves because they were quoting the Irish £ at a higher rate than the British. I understand that that has been going on since. Are we to have less faith in ourselves and our economic future than the kerb dealers of New York?

If we are to continue exact parity indefinitely, how long are we to go on deceiving ourselves about our two political bugbears of emigration and Partition? Other speakers may hold that there are social and biological factors involved in emigration. I entirely agree; but even if these social and biological problems were blotted out, were eliminated, how long could we maintain an increased population on our present policy of investing in British picture palaces and withholding investments from, humanly speaking, much sounder enterprises in our own country? And if we are all going to slide down the scale together— Great Britain, the Six Counties and the Twenty-Six Counties—if the ratio between us is to remain unaltered but at a lower level, how are you going to persuade the Six Counties to throw in their lot with you rather than with Britain?

As I wrote eight years ago in this pamphlet, Eamon de Valera Does Not See It Through—and again I got my head in my hand for doing it:—

"The Ulster Protestant prefers the ills he has to the same ills translated into Gaelic".

I said then, and I say now, that you can never end Partition simply by painting the pillar-boxes green and beginning your letters: "A Chara". It will take an active creative statesmanship, and, by "creative statesmanship" I do not mean just adjustment, what is called consequential legislation arising out of something which has happened somewhere else, which is all we have at the moment, but creative statesmanship in the full sense of the word. If the majority of leaders of opinion in this State tell me that an act of creative statesmanship is impossible, then I tell you— and I tell you as an Ulster Protestant —to stop deceiving yourselves about Partition.

Lastly, a loyal band of Irishmen made perfectly clear at Strasbourg the things for which this nation stands: a Christian way of life, based upon the simple pieties of the soil, but sufficiently diversified industrially to offer its population a chance of remaining rooted in that soil. How far do you think you will really go to achieve that ideal in the full sense in terms of international finance? How far are we achieving it now in terms of a mechanism which regards human lives as commodities—to be shipped out of the country not only like but, ironically enough, along with, sides of bacon which might have fed them?

I have tried to show how international finance worked in the period between the wars and how it is getting to work again to-day—not so much in wickedness as in wilful disregard of the facts of the 20th century world of nations. If we are bound to that system, if it is a flat impossibility to escape from it at the moment, let us stop deceiving ourselves about many things, including our ideal of setting up in this country a Christian State that will show, at any rate, some faint reflection of Divine justice. But let us debate this matter to the full for here, emerging in this House to-day, I think we find the real line of cleavage in our politics of to-morrow. I think this question will be the real issue in the Irish political field of to-day and to-morrow.

Captain Orpen

I formally second the motion. When putting my name down as one of the seconders I felt that it would serve a useful purpose if we could get from various members of the House some idea of what consequences to this country they thought would flow from the recent action of Britain in devaluating in terms of dollars. I propose to investigate only two things: (1) the possible impact of devaluation on our economy, and (2) the effect of this unilateral action on the part of Great Britain on the group of nations whose interest centres around maintaining confidence in the sterling bloc. I have chosen these two aspects for the reason that I think the first intimately affects us and that the second, to my mind, has possibly very far-reaching consequences and I hoped that, by dividing it into these two groups, other Senators with other views might keep the debate on a wide plane.

When we come to consider the impact of this devaluation of the £ in terms of dollars we find in the public Press and in the interminable discussions of people behind closed doors a very wide difference of opinion. One man says it is going to ruin the country and another says that it is going to put the country on the pig's back. Another man says he will be ruined and that it will do this, that and the other. That is the first and almost inevitable reaction to any drastic monetary change coming along like a bolt from the blue. Then we had other gentlemen coming on the scene duly warning us that prices would inevitably go up.

Supposing we try to examine some of the major factors involved in dollar purchases. I want to do that because I am a severely practical sort of person. I like to get what I think are the facts and to measure them with a measuring tape. I set out by stating that our internal economy mainly depends on our agricultural efforts, and that as far as our exports are concerned they are mainly based on a surplus. How, for instance, does devaluation affect agriculture? What are our main dollar purchases? As I see it, the main substantial dollar purchases are wheat, maize, oils—I include mineral, carbon and lubricating oils—tobacco, and substantial imports of machinery, which vary and of which I have not unfortunately the materials to break down the figures of the imports from dollar countries. Perhaps the Minister can supply the figures. Later I shall go into the amount of these dollar imports.

In the course of a cursory investigation I wanted to find the size of these dollar imports. I found the value of our imports in 1947—I took that year for two reasons. It was one when imports were very high as we were making up deficiencies which accrued during the war. I had not the figures for 1948. In 1947 the total net tonnage taken to this country came to 1,280,000. One-fourth of that came from the United States of America. The first shock I had was that, in the interim consequent, probably, on the war a very large tonnage reached this country in United States bottoms. Perhaps that may be an explanation of one of the first things we heard, that the cost of everything imported from the United States had risen because transport costs had risen.

The second shock was that there was this large percentage of our imports carried in United States ships. I presume that one of the reasons for the changed position was due to imports coming here in United States ships. The value of our total imports in 1947 was £131,000,000, of which Great Britain contributed £52.3 million, Northern Ireland, £2.2 million, other countries £75.2 million and re-imports £1.16 million. Some £45,000,000 came from dollar countries or £40.5 million out of £131,000,000 and the United States appears to come into the picture to the tune of £29.3 million.

I do not know if we are going to depend on anything like that magnitude of imports. I do not say that it is necessary to do so. As I explained, the figures for 1947 clearly deal with a period of re-stocking, and might be excessive, but it is quite clear that we cannot possibly expect to continue imports from the United States and other dollar countries to the tune of £40,000,000 a year, especially when that £40,000,000 swells considerably in consequence of devaluation. Of course we have some dollar-earning capacity, but it is very small. As the mover of the motion stated, the visible ones for that year were almost invisible, amounting to £300,000. The Minister, no doubt, can give a calculation which will include the invisible items. Even supposing that devaluation, as it probably will, stimulates the tourist trade to an astonishing degree, we have a long way to travel if we continue to import at the £40,000,000 level.

I want to break down the imports into two main groups, agricultural products and other essentials. Imports of wheat cost us in 1941, £3.5 million. It is interesting to note for the benefit of farmers that in 1947, wheat landed here cost £1 17s. per cwt. No farmer in Ireland ever got that price.

The maize imports came to £1,250,000. It is quite possible that we, in a year or two, could do without that as a feeding stuff and use barley as an economic substitute, but there are a whole lot of items which we will find it very difficult to do without and which seem to require dollars such as petrol, oils and fuel oils. As far as I can make out—I hope I am wrong— there is no possibility of buying these things except with dollars. I am informed that dollars are required to buy Middle East petrol. I do not know whether it is true but I am informed that it is so. May I suggest that it ought to be possible, given the time—and as far as I can see we have got until 1952 to find out—to readjust our imports to some extent so as to avoid having to find dollars to the extent we have to find them now? It is all very well for countries that have large industrial exports like Britain to hope to meet the dollar gap by increased exports. I cannot see that most countries in Europe can adopt the same policy and succeed. We as an agricultural country can, of course, sell relatively little to the United States but, on the other hand, as an agricultural country our position following devaluation should not at any rate be worsened. It may well be that those people who claim that devaluation automatically puts us on the pig's back are right. As far as I can see the position of the agricultural part of the community should not be worse following devaluation than it was before.

How about the community at large? Obviously any manufacturer who has been in the habit of drawing raw materials from dollar countries and cannot find an alternative source is in an unfortunate position. The position of industrial concerns that depend on semi-fabricated materials coming from dollar countries would be seriously worsened, but is the community at large seriously affected? To put it another way, had our Government any alternative? When the knife was put to the throat by an announcement which, I believe, was given to the world at the same time as it was given to the heads of most European Governments with no warning could our Government have done anything else but devalue to the same extent as Britain did? I think they had no alternative whatsoever. We were bound to do it.

That brings me to the second question about which I want to say a few words, the effect of the unilateral action on the part of Great Britain on the group of nations whose interests centre around confidence in the sterling bloc. It seems to me very extraordinary that at a time when the statesmen of Western Europe are trying to bring about political and economic co-operation between the nations of Western Europe one nation, presumably for its own good, should take an important step such as devaluation without notifying those other States, or, if you like, the States within the sterling bloc who would obviously be affected. I know that it is very difficult to keep such things secret, but surely it would not be impossible to devise means to prevent currency speculation all over the world for a period and have international consultations, or at any rate a warning that such a drastic step was about to be taken. I think it is a shocking thing. However, it was done. I believe that one or two institutions were consulted. I am not sure about this, but I understand that Britain decided to devalue following talks in Washington and that the International Monetary Fund was notified about that fact before the public. How can we expect to get political, military and economic co-operation between the countries of Western Europe if one country suddenly turns around and does something affecting all the rest? I am not complaining on behalf of this country, because I do not think it will do us any harm one way or the other, but only on principle. It has created something of a difficulty in France, as we all know, and I think it will create considerable difficulty in Canada. I wonder were they consulted.

To conclude, I think it will serve a useful purpose to have the views of Senators on the impact of devaluation in terms of dollars on this country, on what effect it will have and on what we had best do to minimise the ills and magnify the benefits.

Having put my name to this motion, it is only natural that I should stand up to speak, but standing up to speak induces me to confess at the very beginning that I am completely ignorant of international finance and monetary affairs. The very framing of the motion may have suggested that, since in it we merely presumed that it was time to re-examine our monetary policy. It is time to re-examine it, as there are so many theories in circulation. If you want proof that we need some definite and authoritative statement on our monetary position and our financial standing and policy generally, you have only to throw your mind back a few moments to the two speeches that already have been made. The proposer and seconder of the motion do not see eye to eye, nor do I see eye to eye with anybody, because, as I say, I have no viewpoint of my own on it. I do not presume to tell the Minister for Finance what he should do, but I am almost unique in that. Everybody else in the country who would not undertake to run a small huckster's shop is quite convinced that he could manage the financial affairs not merely of this country but of the whole world.

Might I say I would undertake to run a small huckster's shop?

I am glad that the Senator has that much confidence in himself. Perhaps he could induce the country to have it in his proposals. Senator Ireland quotes Shelley and Montagu Norman. I quote neither, but I quote the man in the street. The Senator commented that, passing on the top of a bus, he saw the Bank of Ireland occupying what was formerly the Parliament House. I do not know whether he contemplates at some future date going in with whips and scorpions to drive out the bankers and put in the legislators. That is one of the risks he will not take.

I do not know whether any calamity has occurred by the devaluation of our £ as against the dollar. I do not know whether it was inevitable, that we had to follow it. I do not know whether it is inevitable that we shall have to remain linked to sterling in the future. I do not know whether it would be advisable to break that link and set up some other form of currency here. But, as a purely uninformed person, there are some questions I would like to ask. Is there another system of currency or finance we could adopt that, without injuring our own economy, would prevent people from outside this country coming over and with paper money buying up property here? There is protection for industry and alien capital cannot control an industry in this country unless it does so by subterfuge. I understand that some of them do it in that way, but presumably 51 per cent. of the capital should be held in Irish hands. Yet alien cash can come in and buy farms, houses and other property. I do not know whether, if we had a currency of our own, it would prevent that or minimise the hardship it is causing— and it is causing hardship. I know of a case in which a man sold a farm not far from Dublin for £2,000. The buyer lived in it for a little over a year and then felt he did not like farming, or did not like it in that part of the country, and sold it to an alien for £11,000. Now, that is inflating the value of land to an abnormal degree, as no national could have competed against the alien with the £11,000 for that farm. It was not worth it, though it may have been worth it to him.

I hear a lot about inflation and deflation. In so far as deflation is concerned, my money has been deflated from week to week for years. Every time I went to spend a shilling, I found it had become deflated and would buy less than it did a week before. Nobody seemed to worry about it. My £—if I have a £—even according to the experts has been deflated not 33 per cent. but 66 per cent., as I heard it stated on authority that the purchasing power of the £ now is no more than 6/6 or 7/- compared with some years ago. Therefore, my money has been deflated even within the country. Deflation of our money as against the dollar probably will cause considerable trouble, too. I do not know how the Minister could have avoided it in the past and I do not know how he can avoid it in the future.

There are other forms of deflation. Lack of adequate food deflated a good many of our neighbours across the Channel, but they came over here, having no lack of currency, and managed to inflate themselves again on the food of this country. I wonder whether it is necessary or desirable that we should have so much money invested in Great Britain, not merely by private individuals but by the Government itself. It was stated a few days ago that we had tens of millions of pounds invested in British securities which were giving a return of 1 1/16th per cent. to the State here. The same State that has this £40,000,000 or £50,000,000 invested in Great Britain is occasionally looking for loans from the people of this country. If it invests its money in Britain for 1 1/16th per cent., I do not see why that money cannot be used at home, instead of borrowing more money, or endeavouring to borrow it, here at a much higher rate of interest. Maybe it is not possible to do that, but for a man who knows nothing about it, it seems to be a thing that ought to be explained—if it can be done, why not do it; or, if it cannot be done, why it cannot.

If we have, as we are supposed to have, £400,000,000 or £500,000,000 invested in sterling securities—which are depreciating day by day, even if there were never any dollar appreciation against sterling—why, while we have that money, do we see the Dublin Corporation unable to raise a loan of £5,000,000 through the banks at 3½ per cent.? We are told that this country is under-developed for lack of capital, yet so many hundreds of millions of our capital seem to be working abroad. It is because I wanted the Minister, and others who know something about these matters, to give us a clear explanation of what the position is, or what might be done or can be done, that I have put my name to this motion. I have no theories of my own, but could keep the House going for another half-hour telling the things I have listened to outside and the questions that have been asked of me which I could not answer and which somebody is expected to answer sometime.

I would end with a quotation. I can understand well enough that there was a time when there was little outlet for Irish money but in Britain and so Irish money was invested there. Maybe that habit persists, and people are reluctant to break it and maybe money, like the emigrant, is reluctant to come home. But let me give the quotation:—"Where your wealth is, there your heart is."

This motion should serve a very useful purpose at this juncture in our history. One would have expected that, with the almost universal economic disturbance following on the recent international decision to devalue the £, there would be considerable and perhaps grave anxiety in this country about our future just as there is elsewhere. Perhaps it is an indication of our inherent economic stability that this event has taken place with so little evidence of economic disturbance. I think, however, that the time has arrived when a careful and exhaustive study of our whole situation should be made. We have in the present Minister for Finance an individual who is capable of applying his mind in the most incisive and comprehensive manner possible and of letting us know exactly where the country stands.

It is important to appreciate the fact that the British decision, which was arrived at probably under pressure, certainly under international economic pressure, demanded from the British Government a debate in Parliament. In many European countries—certainly in France, as Senator Orpen has indicated—there is political upheaval consequent on the economic disturbance occasioned by Britain's decision and all over Western Europe as well as in Canada, the Argentine and the Australasian hemisphere, people and Governments are rearranging their economic affairs and attempting adjustment of their policies, internal and external.

As I see it the calm with which the decision has been accepted here is, on the whole, evidence of the confidence of our people in their Government and in their future and of our satisfaction with the stable conditions that exist. That, however, does not absolve us from the responsibility of making an examination of this situation. I am quite certain that this is only the beginning of very considerable economic disturbances, the end of which none of us can yet see.

I want to discuss the phrase "monetary policy" in the sense of the control we have over our monetary policy and how that control is exercised. About our control: Reference has been made to the phrase "parity with sterling". I am not a technician in these matters. I do not know who the technicians really are. They are unseen persons who are supposed to decide international policy with very sinister motives. I am sure they are nothing of the kind. They are probably on the whole not much better informed than we are and we do not pretend that we are technicians; we only seek further knowledge.

Some of us had in this House some time ago to address ourselves to this whole problem. Some of us have changed places since those days. In fact, there has been a very considerable shake-up. When we use the phrase "parity with sterling"—a phrase that was used many times here in the debate on the Central Bank some years ago—we must all admit that the situation has considerably changed since then. I do not know if anybody is charging the Government here with neglect, lack of courage or anything else like that consequent on the devaluation of the £. The fact as I know it—if I am wrong I can be corrected—is that the law as it stood when the British devalued the £ was that our £ was to be held at parity with the British £. I do not see how, without amendment of our law, what else could have happened than that we should follow. In fact, it did follow, although we did nothing at all, that our £ would be devalued. Whatever the situation is, what we have to admit and recognise is that in every country, whether a monarchy or a republic, all over Europe there has been a change in the value of currency consequent on this decision in Britain. Senator Douglas says that that is not correct.

There are one or two exceptions.

At any rate, that is the case in the great majority of countries and I think in practically all of them there will be necessity for readjustment. The situation as far as we are concerned is that many of our people are rather unhappy about the fact that when the British £ is devalued we must automatically follow suit.

It is important to examine for a moment what is meant by this phrase "the value of the £" and who puts the value on the £. Quite clearly, long before the decision was taken arising out of the Washington conference, international opinion had put a different value on the British £ from the value that Britain had put on it, certainly a very different value was put on it in America. I do not know much about it, but I understand that the Irish £ in America was more highly valued than the British £, before devaluation. I do not know what the situation is now. At any rate, to the Americans and to certain European countries it did appear that the British productive effort and the value of British goods on the international market were at such a level that the British currency—which, I suppose, was the external evidence of the value of British production and the hope of Britain in future—was rated too highly by the British, and the pressure of this opinion created the situation for Britain to which apparently there was no alternative. Automatically, however, our £ was devalued.

I feel that the strength of our economy is such that, on the value of our production and the value of our type of production on the international market, the purchasing ability of the productive effort of our people can be more highly rated to-day than the purchasing ability of the productive effort of the British people. When Britain has sold all she has produced for export, there is a very considerable gap to be filled in paying for the purchases she requires for her ordinary day-to-day existence and she is only managing to survive by virtue of the fact that grants are being made to her to enable her to bridge that gap. We are in this happy position that, to a very great extent, in the volume of our physical goods and the value put upon them, we are balancing our purchases but, to the extent that we are not doing that, we are able to draw upon savings or upon the moneys which we have to our credit from sales in the past to pay for current needs. If Britain, in the countries where she is buying, had savings stored up, as we have—savings which are a claim upon the goods and services of the community where this money is banked— her position would be much stronger and more powerful than it is to-day. In so far as we are to judge the relative values of the Irish £ and the British £, I am convinced that the security behind our £ is on a much higher level than the security behind the British £. That is a matter for re-examination.

With regard to another aspect of monetary policy, it is true that in the Central Bank Act we tied ourselves with regard to the value of our £ and we also tied our hands with regard to the backing behind our currency here. I opposed that line of policy. I think the present Minister for Finance opposed it very vigorously and with great clarity and tenacity, and in the other House also. I failed then and I fail completely now to appreciate the point of view of the people who enunciate the doctrine that our currency here must have sterling as a backing. Whatever may have been the necessity for such a policy then, I believe that the present situation demands that the position should be radically altered. I do not care how optimistic one may be about the future of Britain. Without any desire to underrate the value of the British productive effort and the security there is for their people in that productive effort, I say that the best security for our currency is the productive effort of our own people. I have said that the present situation demands alteration and that I believe it was a mistaken policy then. I think there was far too much of the inferiority complex mentality about it. As a nation we ought to have as much confidence in ourselves and in our own people's physical and mental capacity as we have in the people of another country. There is clear evidence of the capacity of our people to go a very long way, out of our own resources, to sustain life and build up higher standards for ourselves.

Where can we be so confident of that capacity being exercised by the people in Britain in regard to the future of Britain? I believe in that respect that the whole basis of the backing of our currency should be changed. In regard to monetary policy generally, there has been, as some of the other speakers indicated, the general line that investments in Britain seem to be more secure for the locking up of Irish funds than investments at home. I do not know what securities could be bought in Britain to-day about which anybody could look forward and say that three months hence they would be of the same value or that, indeed, there was not a possibility of a further drop. It is not for us to make any comment on the British Government, present or past, as to the conduct of their own affairs, but it is obvious to all of us that the immense drain on British resources and the vast sums that have been spent there out of her current income are creating a situation that must approach a crisis. I realise that speculation like this may put me in the position of being criticised for taking a line harmful to the national credit. But is not the position that our £ has no basis to stand on except our investments in Britain? It is entirely wrong. I have been given varying figures of the total amount of our investments in Britain, and perhaps the Minister will be able to give us the figures by which these have depreciated as the result of recent happenings.

In terms of dollars only.

This is an international problem and I do not want to go around the whole circle. Senator Orpen has already gone part of the journey. We have very considerable problems facing us. The recent Government decision with regard to the investments of considerable funds in a land rehabilitation scheme is of very great importance. It is of immense importance, but, at the same time, I would prefer to speak of it as a soil rehabilitation scheme because for a very long time—I have stressed it on various occasions over the last 15 years—soil rehabilitation is one thing but farm rehabilitation is another. I feel that the security of this country in the future, the soundness of the monetary policy and the possibility of retaining our population at home depends on their chances of our young people to live here, to get married and to build homes of their own, and, to a very great extent, that must be determined by the extent to which we are ready to make investments in a land and farm rehabilitation scheme, that will enable us not only to put the soils right but to put the land right so that every farm in the country will be capable of 100 per cent. of its potential production. All this is involved in the question at stake in our monetary policy.

The Minister has some experience of the difficulties in the past of financing agricultural development. I know the great hopes that are being held out because of the new scheme of land rehabilitation and the Minister in my opinion must put an addendum to the land rehabilitation scheme as already enunciated. There is no point in the world in putting the soil of this country into a healthy state to give 100 per cent. yield of whatever crop is being raised, whether they are tillage, roots or grass crops unless there is capital freely available to pursue that policy to the ultimate end and that means building and restocking, and in many cases it will be essential to have some authority of the type of T.V.A. in America which has done such useful work there. Taking the country as a whole, there are thousands of acres of land that can never be successfully rehabilitated without considerable capital investment.

The investment of money outside this country to-day is a risky operation. The security in many countries is no better than it is here at home, and if we are to reap the full fruits of the policy which the Government are pursuing now with such vigorous and enlightened determination, I am satisfied that a re-examination of our monetary policy in relation to investment in the land of Ireland is essential. What goes for the land of Ireland goes for industry and for all life in Ireland, and so not only is a discussion of this problem to-day not only not out of place but it is the duty of those of us who are in public life to make what contribution we can towards enlightening ourselves by way of study and enlightening others by intelligent discussion in so far as it is possible to have intelligent discussion upon this problem.

Some people frequently say, when any suggestion is made with regard to the valuing of our £, at either more or less than the British £, that it might cause panic or might result in a lack of confidence in the future. I believe that a discussion of this kind is very useful in order to allay any feelings of that nature and also for the purpose of considering our future policy. I believe that the people who talk in that way do so largely because they do not fully understand what the consequences would be of any change in the value of the Irish £ in relation to the British £ and are, therefore, nervous with regard to it.

We have seen letters and articles in the newspapers recently to the effect that we should not have devalued our £ to the same level as the British devalued their £ in relation to the dollar; but, on the other hand, there are other people who believe, and who advocated in the past, that it would be desirable, in the interests of this country, that we should go further and devalue our £ in relation to the British £. Some people have said that it might be desirable that our £ should be worth 18/- in relation to the British £, that we would thus get higher prices for agricultural produce. Personally, at the present time, I believe the Government did the wisest thing. Under existing conditions, I think it was better to keep our £ on a level with the British £, but in the future circumstances may alter, and we should be prepared to consider the possibility that at some future date it might suit this country to have our £ higher or lower than the British £. I believe that it would be very helpful if the Minister made a statement on that subject, and if he would explain to the people what the consequences would be, and what the advantages and disadvantages would be. Such a statement by the Minister would get a great deal of attention from the people, and would be read with great interest.

There is another aspect of our national financial and monetary policy which should also be discussed, and in respect of which again, I believe, a statement from the Minister would be helpful. A number of people have been asking if it is not the case that the Irish Government and the Irish banks invest large sums in Britain at a very low rate of interest—a rate much lower than that at which they lend money to people in Ireland, and to public bodies in Ireland for housing and public health schemes. As an example of that, some Senators may have seen a letter in the Irish Times of October 24th from Dr. ffrench O'Carroll. People ask why the Irish Government and the Irish banks should lend money at a lower rate of interest to Britain than to Irish public bodies, and in this connection again a statement from the Minister, explaining the position and expressing his views, would be very helpful, and would be appreciated by the public.

Private individuals, of course, are free to invest their money where they think fit, but, from a patriotic point of view I believe that they would be doing far more good by investing more of their money in Ireland, in housing, in agriculture and in industry than by investing it abroad. They would give more useful employment in Ireland and help to build up the country. Agriculture, and to a certain extent industry, did not in the past receive sufficient capital. Capital above all is needed and is now being provided to a large extent by the Government for housing, but in that connection, and in connection with agriculture, many people hold that the rate of interest is still too high. I need not go into any detail with regard to agriculture, because the House debated a motion of mine some time ago suggesting lower rates of interest in respect of loans by the Agricultural Credit Corporation, and I pointed out, and many Senators agreed on the advantages that would be to agriculturists.

With regard to housing, many people have asked why it is that this country does not adopt some system similar to that adopted by the Government of New Zealand, and in that respect a statement by the Minister would be read with great interest by the public. In case anybody may not be clear as to the policy to which I refer, I should mention that it has been the policy of the Labour Government of New Zealand to create new money, issued on the credit of the State, for financing housing projects. This policy was stated by the Minister of Finance of New Zealand, Mr. Walter Nash. to have been proved, over a period, to be highly successful. This money was a credit from the reserve bank and was in no way subscribed or underwritten by other financial institutions. At first, interest was charged at the rate of only 1 per cent. on the first £5,000,000, and after that at the rate of 1½ per cent. Mr. Nash, commenting on this on another occasion, said that the successful adoption and operation of this cheap money plan attracted the attention of housing experts and monetary reformers from all over the world.

I think everybody will agree that we need to guard against the danger of inflation, which would result if too much money were issued in proportion to the quantities of goods being made available to the community; but subject to that limit, I think it would be helpful if the Minister would comment on what was done in New Zealand and what proved so satisfactory there, and state his views with regard to that proposal in relation to this country. It does not need any long speech to point out the tremendous advantage of cheap money in regard to housing. If we are to spend £100,000,000 on housing during the next few years, a reduction in the rate of interest for housing loans from 3 per cent. to 2 per cent. would save £1,000,000 a year in interest, and it would mean that many families with small incomes could have houses at much lower rents.

All these matters might be regarded by some people as being very technical. Some people think that it is not desirable for the public to discuss such matters at all. I believe, however, that if people discuss these matters more frequently, and understand all the implications, then there would be more confidence if changes by the Government were necessary. I suggest that it would be very helpful if the Minister for Finance would express his views on the various points which I have raised and on those raised by other Senators.

It seems to me that there are two problems which the Minister might keep in mind. One concerns the devaluation that has taken place in the exchange rate, and the other is the problem arising out of repatriation of our external assets. These two questions would have an effect on each other. I intervene really to ask questions and to raise certain points being discussed in the country, in order to try to get from the Minister an authoritative statement on certain problems in which the people generally are interested. Therefore, I am asking the Minister to answer questions concerning a re-examination of the Irish monetary problem. I also agree that that is Ireland's future concern to-day rather than the past. I am not going into the past. I propose to go back only to the Banking Commission of 1938. My reason for doing so is that I was a member of that commission. I think it would be fair to the other signatories to say that the circumstances then were quite different from circumstances now. In 1927 the £ sterling was tied to gold, and the Irish £ was therefore tied to gold indirectly. In 1931 the £ sterling left gold.

The effect of the departure of sterling from gold in 1931 was affected by the unforeseen consequences of world depression. The sterling price level remained stable and the gold price level fell. From 1931 to 1938 sterling price level was more stable than gold. One gold country after another had to devalue its currency. The position we saw in 1938 was that if we continued the policy recommended in 1926 and implemented by the Government in 1927, we would be tying the Irish currency to a stable and convertible £.

Up to 1938 sterling was a stable currency and was convertible freely into every other currency. As long as we were able to maintain exports to the sterling area, Ireland could never find itself short of any currency to purchase wheat, maize or petrol or anything else in any part of the world. I am perfectly convinced that the Majority Report of the Banking Commission was right in the circumstances of the time. I, as well as other members of that commission, incurred a great deal of odium and unpopularity by our recommendations but I am convinced that they were right at the time and I am not sure that they are not right to-day. It is very easy to job backwards about finance arrangements. It is quite likely that our recommendations might be different to-day. Those who criticise the recommendations, I think, will agree that it would be unreasonable to expect anyone in 1938 to foresee a European War in 1939. Of course there was always the possibility that the international situation would be disturbed. Who could have counted that there was going to be a war? Our attention was not drawn to that possibility. I admit that our plans were made without regard to the effect on currency caused by war. Even those who could foresee war, how could they have foreseen that it would last five years? How could they foresee the destruction and the sacrifices that the British people had to make during the course of the war? No nation made greater sacrifices than Britain. They threw everything overboard, including their external assets. How could anyone foresee that England, having won the war, or having been on the victorious side, would be in the dire position she is in to-day? The whole pattern of events after 1918 was different. After 1918 there was inflation, but sterling was strong. Criticism of monetary policy after the first war was that there was deflation. Countries with reserves in the form of sterling found that the value of the reserves went up. If that sequence had been repeated, the recommendations that were made would be amply justified and everyone would say how wise we were. The British economic system suffered a second round of destruction, with a sort of compound interest. Moreover, there was the policy of inflation that they pursued. The English Chancellor of the Exchequer above everything else persisted in pursuing a policy of cheap money; he pursued a highly inflationary policy in Great Britain which had the effect of keeping down the value of the currency and the sterling area nations found themselves in precisely the opposite position to their position—if there were a sterling area then—after the first world war. Instead of a system which recovered rapidly after the war, instead of a currency deflationary policy—whether it was wise or not is not the question—they found themselves tied to a currency which instead of rising in value was attacked by the inflationary policy. England found herself in ever-enlarging difficulties in its balance of payments, and the whole sterling area was in a position of chronic difficulty for the last three or four years. One could, if one wanted to, draw attention to the various milestones in this rather melancholy progress: Anglo-American loans with hopes of convertibility held out; the promise of Marshall Aid, and the rapid deterioration last year until we found sterling, which formed the basis of our currency, devalued overnight by 30 per cent. through no fault of ours and no consultation and, as far as I know, without having received notice. That, I take it, is the position in which we now find ourselves, and some of the assumptions and postulates of the Banking Commission might possibly be found to have changed; and if the assumptions and postulates have changed, the conclusions may have changed. I do not suggest that that is the case, because all I am pleading for at the present moment is a re-examination of the whole situation in the light of recent events.

I do not think there is any point in discussing whether the Irish £ should not have been devalued in the course of the last month, because it has already been made clear by speakers in the Seanad—and, of course, the fact is quite clear to anybody who has given the matter a moment's thought—that the Government had no alternative. The Irish £ under the Act of 1927 automatically followed the £ sterling wherever it went. In order to effect the change in parity between the Irish and English £ amendment of the Currency Act of 1927 and of the Central Bank Act of 1942 would have had to take place. If the Government had announced that such amendment was in contemplation, and that it did not intend to allow our £ to follow the course of the £ sterling, legislation would have been essential and that legislation would have involved debates in the Dáil and in this House. With the best will in the world, with the utmost co-operation of all Parties, I do not think that these very difficult questions could have been debated without some amount of delay. It would have taken some time. If the Government had announced that they did not intend to follow the British £ and that they intended to amend the Currency Acts in such a way as to bring about a difference in Anglo-Irish parity they either would have had announced what the new parity was or they would not have done so. In either case there would have been highly undesirable speculation.

If they announced that they did not intend to devalue to 2.80 dollars, that they intended to hold the £ higher up, there would have been wholesale movement of funds from Northern Ireland to Éire. Depositors in Northern Ireland who would not be affected by the new legislation would have hastened to withdraw their deposits and put them in banks south of the Border. There would have been also a movement of funds from Great Britain to Ireland. There would have been the further phenomenon referred to by Senator O'Farrell regarding English paper money coming into Ireland on the most colossal scale in order to take advantage of the better exchange rate which would have had an exceedingly upsetting effect on the confidence of the country and the banking system. In order to prevent that movement it would have been necessary for the Government to declare not one but several bank holidays while the operation took place. It would have been necessary to declare bank holidays— at least I suggest this; I am trying to think out all the difficulties involved— not only in this part of the country but also in Northern Ireland because that is the place where the greatest withdrawals would have taken place. Whether some co-operative closing of the banks could have been arrived at I do not know, but the closing of the banks in Northern Ireland is not an operation which can be effected by the Minister for Finance of the Irish Republic. There would have therefore been a period of days of monetary disturbance, speculation and movement of funds. The reason I refer to this is not merely because I think it good to go over the difficulties of the past.

I think that operations of the kind I have described, legislation, the movement of funds and highly controversial debates in the Dáil and Seanad, all the things which would have had to be done before ultimate parity would have been arrived at, would have done more harm than good. Therefore, I do think that there is something to be said for considering the possibility of giving to some executive body, either the Minister for Finance or the Central Bank or the Central Bank in conjunction with the Minister for Finance, the power of making more rapid decisions in the future. These operations which we have seen in recent weeks have depended, I will not say on an element of surprise, but on an element of speed. The British Chancellor of the Exchequer almost blemished an undamaged reputation for veracity by the stratagems and subterfuges he had to undertake in order to deny that the £ was going to be devalued. It was almost like the budget, for if it were revealed ahead it would do untold harm. We have got a position of such currency disequilibrium in the world and the position of the £ and of other currencies has become so different to what it was in 1938 that one cannot help feeling that some discretionary power might be considered at any rate. I, for one, am certainly not making concrete proposals; I am simply calling for a re-examination of the problem and when the problem has been re-examined some machinery of that kind might very well be envisaged. The Central Bank of New Zealand has that power. Some years ago the Central Bank of New Zealand revalued the New Zealand £. As far as I understand from reading financial papers at the time this step was taken without any notice being given to any financial authorities in other parts of the world. Every country should possibly have that power. If a variation in the exchange rate with sterling is a step which should be taken—and that is a point with which I will deal in a moment—it is one of the operations which must be made rapidly if it is to be a success, without debates in the Dáil or legislation, and therefore I have the feeling that there is something to be said for giving some authority that power. There was some power under the Currency Act of 1930 which was repealed by the Central Bank Act of 1942 for certain changes and rather rapid decisions to be made by the Currency Commission and the Department of Finance. With safeguards, of course, some reasonable authority might be given power to move with the requisite speed in the case of a further devaluation of sterling which is not, I am afraid, entirely an impossibility in the future.

Business suspended at 6 p.m. and resumed at 7.30 p.m.

I was just saying before the adjournment that there was something to be said for examining the possibility of giving authority to make changes without the delays necessitated by legislation. Before passing from that, I want to make it perfectly clear that I realise the gravity of such a proposal and that it is a step not to be undertaken lightly. It might be feasible to work out some sort of compromise arrangement—that the Central Bank and the Minister, possibly with unanimity, might make some proposal of that kind which could be ratified by the Dáil and Seanad by being laid on the Table of both Houses, which could be summoned rapidly, perhaps by telegraph or by some arrangement of that kind. The only point I was trying to make was that in the events of a month ago the Government could not have prevented devaluation with sufficient rapidity. Therefore, there is no use in discussing the events of the last month. What we have to do now is look to the future and see what machinery can be provided to deal with a similar occasion if, unfortunately, it should arise.

Assuming for a moment that we had this problem of revaluing our currency in terms of sterling, the next question to be considered would be the use we could best make of it. The general body of opinion, so far as one can gather, in various circles in Ireland is that we should not have devalued so much. Some people, as Senator Burke said, have been in favour of devaluing even more—that is what Australia did—but the general body of opinion in Ireland against what the Government did is in favour of devaluing less, trying to maintain the Irish £ at a higher parity than the revalued £ at $2.80.

I do not wish to enter into the various possibilities of exchange variations in the £. That matter was fully debated and discussed in the Report of the Banking Commission and the arguments then, regarding higher or lower values of the £ sterling, still remain valid to-day, in spite of the changed circumstances to which I have referred. It is no harm to mention that the maintenance of the Irish £ at a higher exchange value to the dollar would have a very marked effect on our industrial life. Irish exporters would be competing with competitors who had devalued their currency and Irish exports of a visible nature—as agricultural produce—and of an invisible nature—as in the case of the tourist industry—would unquestionably suffer. We might find ourselves to some extent in the same difficulties as Switzerland is to-day, where they are in extreme difficulties in exporting to the sterling area and where the Swiss tourist industry is also in difficulties, so great that the Swiss Government is being asked to find a special rate of exchange for tourists in order to stimulate the tourist industry again. These are some of the types of difficulty to be encountered.

As against that, it must be remembered that imports would become cheaper. I cannot see how Irish manufacturers could be prevented from applying for additional tariffs. It would have the effect of reducing the Irish tariff by a precise percentage to the difference between the two currencies. Therefore, manufacturers enjoying a 20 per cent. tariff would find themselves very injuriously affected, unless the tariff were raised by 20 per cent. to 40 per cent. That would increase industrial protection and increase prices and would force a price pattern on the country that might be found exceedingly injurious. These are some of the consequences of holding the value of the £ up.

I do not discuss the possibility of entirely casting loose from sterling, as I do not think that is practicable. The Irish £ would be left to find its own value and that would be a much too speculative proposition. The Banking Commission discussed that and dismissed it as impracticable. Very few currencies are left to find their own level in international exchanges, and a small country like this, with an adverse balance of payments, is not in a position to experiment with a free or floating £, its value to be determined by conditions of supply and demand. Therefore, the question is, if it is tied to anything to what is it to be tied—sterling or something else? In practice, we have no alternative here. The reason I say that is that there is no use in tying ourselves to a currency which we are not in a position to obtain. Tying to a currency really means undertaking the legal obligation to honour one's own currency in that other currency. We cannot undertake that unless we are in a position to obtain supplies of that currency, or gold, or whatever it is. The only external currency we are in a position to obtain in the normal course of trade is sterling. If we contemplated making our currency convertible into gold or dollars, our gold and dollars very soon would be drained away and we would very soon find ourselves unable to maintain convertibility and we would be in precisely the same position as the Bank of England was in 1931 when, through sheer pressure on its gold resources, the gold link was broken. Therefore, the real question seems to be, not the alternative between tying ourselves to nothing or to the dollar or gold, but, having to tie ourselves to sterling, the question of the exchange rate. Is it to be the present exchange rate or another exchange rate? In either course there are certain disadvantages and all I am suggesting in this debate is that the advantages and disadvantages ought to be considered and discussed.

There is, I know, one very practical subject discussed by the Banking Commission to which I would like to hear an answer if the Minister would be good enough to give it. If we do attempt an independent rate of exchange with sterling, if the Irish £ value is at a higher rate, how can we possibly prevent the inward and outward movement of funds between the banks in Great Britain and the banks in Ireland without the imposition of a measure of exchange control of a very pressing character? That would be extremely difficult in the circumstances of the Border, when the smuggling of currency would exceed the smuggling of anything else. We know that it is easier to smuggle currency than anything else. I would like to know the answer to that question in practice— how are the transfers of funds from the place of the lower valued currency to that of the higher valued to be controlled or prevented? Furthermore, I would like to know the effect on the Irish banking system, where Irish banks have assets and liabilities in the two areas. At the present time, they can exchange the two currencies freely, because the exchange is at parity; but if the Irish £ and sterling were at different rates of exchange, at once the liabilities and assets of the Irish banks in the two areas would be different and that would have an extremely disturbing effect on the balance sheets of the banks.

I would like some information as to how a situation of that kind is met, let us say, in Australia or New Zealand. In these countries, banks have Australian and New Zealand assets and liabilities, and they also have sterling and they must grapple with the situation. But, of course, the question of proximity comes in here, and what might be practicable between two countries separated by half the width of the planet would be very difficult between two countries separated by a mere land border.

These are some of the practical day-to-day considerations which seem to me to be relevant in considering this question. Sometimes the theoretically best is practically impossible and, therefore, we, as people dealing with practical problems, must always have regard to the practicability as well as the desirability of the change which is suggested to us.

The final matter I am dealing with is the second part of the problem arising, which is intimately connected with the first. That is this question which is so much discussed at the present time of the repatriation of sterling assets for the purposes of internal investment. I do not think there is anything inherently unwise or improvident in these proposals. At the time of the Banking Commission report, as I said, sterling was a convertible, very stable, currency and the obvious policy, I suppose, for a nation, as in the case of an individual having savings in a stable form, is to maintain them as long as you can, not to dissipate them, but to regard them as ultimate reserves. It is a very foolish person who lives on capital and a very foolish nation that dissipates external reserves.

At a period of depreciation of capital values, at a period when the capital value of one's savings is showing signs of becoming less with the passage of time, some of those old maxims of prudence go by the board. At the present time there is widespread talk amongst individuals about the wisdom of living on capital. A number of people at the present time whose fathers in the Victorian age, 50 or 60 years ago, would have been shocked at the idea of eating into capital reserves, now look on the expenditure of a certain amount of capital as a wise hedge against the further depreciation of their capital assets. The question is, is it possible or desirable for a nation to make a similar hedge? That is such a very large matter that I would hesitate to express any views about it in a debate of this kind, because, after all, the motion is simply asking for investigation and for nothing else. But I do suggest that the time has come for an intensive survey of the possibility of making some more productive use at home of those capital assets. That is a matter about which I know all the limitations, and I know, of course, of the inflationary effect of the repatriation of assets of that kind.

The effect on the balance of payments would, of course, be immediately adverse and, therefore, it is not a movement to advocate without most extreme examination and without considerable caution. But, at the same time, I cannot help feeling that the whole trend of the value of sterling in recent times has been disquieting. The outlook to-day is not as good as the outlook was in 1938 and, without wishing to strike any note of alarm, I think it would be an optimist who would gamble to-day on the appreciation of sterling. I do not say it will necessarily deteriorate more, but there is nothing on the economic, financial or political horizon at the moment to suggest that it will appreciate at any rate in the near future. Therefore, this question of hedging does arise. Might it not be better to invest some of our savings in something, just like individual people are buying diamonds, old furniture and other things, to get something before the savings get worth less?

It seems to me that this calls for an investigation of a technical kind, a scientific kind, and obviously a certain amount can be done, incidentally in the process, to give employment and to arrest the flow of emigration. I do not know that the mere giving of employment for its own sake is sufficient justification for the repatriation of external savings. I do not think that an operation of that kind can be justified unless the employment content of the investment is high and good. We do not want masses of unskilled labour. We do not want relief works, like there were at the time of the famine. It is always open to any country to do that. Therefore, I think the first thing one would have to look to in this investment at home is whether the employment content is reasonably high. Will it give a reasonable amount of employment at a reasonable standard of living—not mere relief works?

Of course, a more important consideration from the point of view of the Minister for Finance is the effect on the balance of payments, and one must face up to the fact—one must be honest about these things—that a policy of that kind does put your balance of payments in disequilibrium right away, and the question is, is it worth it? Every nation when it goes to war throws overboard a certain amount of accumulated savings. It is possible that the situation here may be comparable—I do not wish to exaggerate—to the crisis of a war, that it may be that we are justified now, in present circumstances, in doing something that would be considered imprudent in more normal circumstances and would have been considered imprudent when the Banking Commission deliberated in 1938. These are matters to which, I think, public attention should be directed.

It might be that investments could be found—and on this I express no opinion which, even though inflationary in the short run and injuring our balance of payments, might, taking the longer view, put our balance of payments back into equilibrium again. The things to aim at are investments which, taking the long view and the long run—and Governments must take the long view—might have the dual effect on our balance of payments of reducing imports and expanding exports.

I have no hesitation at all in saying that the land reclamation schemes of the Department of Agriculture at the present time are well conceived from that point of view. Investment in the fertility or productivity of the Irish soil, is, I think, justified, in the long point of view, and even if the actual return in terms of percentages is reduced as expressed in terms of the rate of interest on investments, at the same time the return of internal investments is an important matter from the point of view of the community. Twenty years ago, perhaps, such an investment might not be justified, but to-day it is of the greatest importance that everything which tends to promote the growth of our agricultural resources should be extensively studied and pursued, and I would say particularly so in the case of our natural resources, such as peat or turf.

We have not been endowed by nature with many natural resources. We have no minerals or such other things which have created wealth for other countries, but there are some things which we can develop. We have a great deal of peat and I think we are justified in spending a lot of money in the investigation of peat.

There is another source of investment which has caused quite considerable controversy in this country in recent times but I do not intend to refer to it from that aspect. That is the possibility of growing more timber. I know that on this there are two schools of thought about it. I have been much impressed by the reports of the Land Commission which, on the whole, incline to the view that our possibilities of timber production are limited; that there is no great possibility of extending the area under timber. But I know a few friends of mine who are students of horticulture and who have shown me that great changes are taking place in the technical aspect of the timber industry. The industry is being revolutionised and our timber may become the raw material of secondary industries, and, therefore, much employment can be given in the planting of trees. How far that is true, I do not know, but we must remember that a great many intelligent people take that point of view, and it is well worth examination.

We now come to the question of tourism which is a less satisfactory method of increasing our exports because it is not within our control. Whether tourists will come or not is outside our control, but these other matters I have mentioned are matters which are inside our own control and if there is a scarcity of other productive investments a certain amount of our external assets might be sacrificed in order to build up the resources I have mentioned. There is no question but that there will be disequilibrium, but that disequilibrium may be countered by expanding some exports and reducing the need for certain imports which we have to obtain outside the sterling area. Again, as I said, I am speaking only to draw the Minister. I am not attaching any importance to what I say but I do attach importance to what the Minister may say.

What you say is very important, too.

We have been talking about the policy of repatriating external savings. That is a question on which we could be frustrated by a policy in other countries, by a so-called freezing of sterling balances, a topic that is very much in the air. It is very much in the air in that the whole recovery programme in support of the so-called consequential measures on devaluation should include something in the nature of the freezing of so-called sterling balances accumulated during the war. Nothing official has been stated yet, but I think that its effects may be such that it is not irrelevant to refer to it briefly before I sit down. I think that this term which is used now in Britain—unrequited exports—is a very unfair and misleading term. The fact of the matter is that the imports for which the British nation should have paid by exports during the war years are represented by accumulated sterling balances and you might as well say that if you get a lot of goods on credit from a shopkeeper and you pay him five years afterwards, those payments made are unrequited payments, although the fact is that you had your consideration when you wanted it and you deferred the payment. To say that anything which is not accompanied at the same time by movement of goods is unrequited is unfair. These exports are not unrequited. These exports are simply requiting something which occurred during various times of the war.

I suggest that the sterling balances which we accumulated during the war were in respect of two very real tangible and useful contributions to the British war effort. One of these contributions was the supply of food when Britain's other sources of supply were interrupted by the war. Another contribution was the earnings of Irish labour in Great Britain during the war when many of our citizens there ran great perils and risks. Therefore, I think that if those accumulated balances were frozen or denied, or were denied in the name of some sort of recovery of the sterling area, we would suffer from a serious grievance. Our position is completely different from that of India, Egypt and the other countries which fought on Britain's side in the war. They were parties to the war: we were neutral; and their sterling balances were built up as a result of expenditure by the British during the period that they were fighting together against a common enemy.

There is another point made about those debts, that those assets were accumulated at a time of seriously inflated price levels. Our circumstances were entirely different. We were neutral; we were not in the war and there is no case for suggesting that we were in a position in which we were building up and financing a war effort. There was no war expenditure in this country and our assets were built up by the export of things which the British badly needed. There is no foundation for the suggestion that our Irish food was paid for by Britain at inflated prices. In fact our case was that Irish food was not paid for at sufficient prices. I am asking the Minister to say that if there is any question of freezing our sterling balances we shall protest against it as an act of injustice. I am inviting the Minister to reply to it. Two great problems seem to have arisen recently —the problem of the devaluation of the Irish £ and the proposed repatriation of our sterling assets. Both are interrelated and cannot be kept apart, because they affect us ultimately on the balance of payments.

Ar an gcéad dul síos, ba mhaith liom a rá gur ar éigin a chreidim go bhfuil mé sa Seanad ar chor ar bith agus gur ar éigin a chreidim go bhfuil mé ag éisteacht le daoine a chuir go láidir agus go fiachmhar i gcoinne polasaí an Rialtais a bhí sa tír ó 1932 amach go dtí 1948. Is maith liom a bheith ag éisteacht le léachtaí agus is maith liom go háirithe bheith ag éisteacht le cur síos ar chúrsaí geilleagair agus ar chúrsaí airgeadais go speisialta. Fuair mé sásamh as dá cheann de na hóráideacha a rinneadh.

Thaithnigh liom an méid adúirt an Seanadóir Ó Fearghaill nuair adúirt sé nach raibh aon eolas aige ar an gceist seo ach ar éigin agus nach raibh faoi treoracha a thabhairt faoi céard ba cheart a dhéanamh nó ceard ba cheart gan a dhéanamh. Bhí sé ar a laghad cneasta. Thaithnigh liom óráid ón Seanadóir Ó Briain mar gheall ar chomh mion agus chomh beacht agus a phlé sé rudaí. Aontaím le cuid mhaith dá ndúirt sé agus ní aontaím le cuid eile, ach caifidh mé a rá gur chuir sé ionadh orm nuair chuala mé Seanadóirí ag fuagairt gur dóigh leo gur baol don phunt Sasanach a thuille san am atá le teacht, nuair a chuimhním ar an bhfreagra a thug cara mhór do na Seanadóirí seo, an tAire Talmhaíochta, dom tamaill ó shoin nuair chuir mé ceist air a bhfuil dlúbhaint aici leis an ábhar atámid a phlé trathnóna. Tá rud amháin ann agus sílim go mba cheart dom é a dhéanamh soiléir. Dúirt an Seanadóir Ó Fearghaill: "If we had a currency of our own." Tá sé chomh maith aige a thuigsint go bhfuil airgead reatha dár gcuid féin againn.

B'fhéidir go ndearna an Rialtas san am, i 1926, dearmad nuair a bhaisteadar an punt Éireannach ar aonad airgeadais na hÉireann. Dá dtugtaí an Banba air in áit punt, b'fhéidir gur fearr a thuigfimis an neamh-spleáchas atá ag baint leis an airgead Éireannach. Tá ár gcuid airgid féin againn. Tá sé againn do réir dlí agus tá sé againn do réir imeachtaí na tráchtála. Deir daoine nach amhlaidh atá ach ní leor é sin a rá—ar a laghad ba cheart go mbeidís i ndon a chrúthú nach amhlaidh atá.

An rún atá os ár gcomhair, is rún é nó tairgsint cinnte nach bhfuil mórán dochair ann. Na daoine a cheap é, cheapadar go cliste é. Cheapadar sa tslí go bhféadfaidís suí ar an gclaidhe i gconaí. Cuid de na daoine a bhfuil a n-ainmneacha curtha leis an tairgsint is daoine iad a thiúrfadh le tuigsint dúinn le fada an lá go raibh staidéar déanta acu ar an gceist, gur thuigeadar an cheist go hiomlán; agus do réir sin ba chóir go mbeidís i ndon rud éigin cinnte a chur as ár gcomhair. Tá trí rudaí le tabhairt faoi deara ar na hóráideacha a rinneadh: ní bhaineann oiread is ceann acu le tairgsint cinnte i dtaobh na ceiste. Chaith cuid de na Seanadóirí a lán ama ag déanamh leithscéal don Rialtais faoi nach ndearnadh tada, má bhí aon rud indéanta i dtaobh na ceiste. Is trua liom nuair a bhí an Budget á phlé i mbliana agus sa mbliain seo caite nuair rinne mé iarracht a chur ar a shúile don Aire nach raibh rudaí ag dul ar aghaidh mar ba chóir, nar chuidigh na Seanadóirí a labhair tráthnóna liom in áit am a chaitheamh ag caitheamh "bouquets" leis an Aire agus an Rialtas.

An Seanadóir Ó Briain, dúirt sé gurb é ceann de na deacrachtaí a bhain le himeachtaí an Choimisiúin Baincéireachta nach bhféadfaidís siadsan a thuigsint go mbeadh cogadh ann mar bhí, agus dá mbeadh aon tuairm acu go dtiocfadh ar an mbealach a tháinig go mbféidir go ndéanfaidís malairt moltaí thar mar rinneadar. B'fhéidir go bhfuil rud éigin ann san ach sílím gur leithscéal bacach é ar shon an Coimisiúin Baincéireachta. Sa Teach seo rinne mé cosaint ar obair an Choimisiúin sin agus rinne mé cosaint go háirithe ar an tOllamh Seoirse Ó Briain mar gheall ar a chuid tuairmí; ach ní leithscéal réasúnach é ag an gCoimisiún Baincéireachta nó ag aon bhall de a rá nach raibh aon tsúil aige go raibh contúirt i ndán don domhan ar an mbealach mar a thit amach. Ba é an tuigsint a bhí againn a bhí fábhrach do Rialtas Fianna Fáil nach raibh cúrsaí polaitíochta ar fud an domhain, nach raibh cúrsaí eadarnáisiúnta, ag breathnú go ró-mhaith, agus dá réir sin go mba cheart dúinn bheith ullamh ar eagla go dtiocfadh an mí-ádh. Ar ábharí an tsaoil, fuaireadar an seans agus rinneadar a gcuid oibre chomh maith sin nuair tháinig an chontúirt go rabhamar i ndon seasamh ar ár gcosa féin agus teacht neamhspleách as.

Abair go bhfuil brí éigin in san argóint sin ag an Seanadóir Ó Briain. Níl a leithéid de leithscéal le déanamh ag an Aire Airgeadais nó aon Aire sa Rialtas. Níos mó ná aon uair amháin meabhraíodh dóibh nach raibh cúrsaí airgeadais ná cúrsaí geilleagair ná cursaí polaitíochta ag breathnú go ró-gheal agus meabhraíodh dóibh gurb é a ndualgas an scéal a bhreithniú agus a bhreithniú go cúramach agus beartas a cheapadh chun go mbeidís réidh dá dtarlódh an chontúirt mar tharla. Ní amháin é sin ach mheabhraigh mé féin don Aire nuair a bhí an Budget á phlé againn munar cheap sé féin go raibh sé i ndon é a dhéanamh agus d'admhaigh sé dom gur cheist an-mhór í a mba cheart dó titim siar ar na hard-oifigigh Stáit agus a gcabhair siadsan a lorg agus a dtuairimí a scrúdú go mion agus beartas a cheapadh dá réir.

Ní i nganfhios a tharla an rud a tharla. D'fhéadfadh Sir Stafford Cripps a rá nach mbeadh díluacháil ar an bpunt ach duine ar bith a raibh cloigeann air, duine ar bith a bhí a bhreathnú ar imeachtaí na tráchtála nó ag breathnú ar imeachtaí an phuint Shasanaigh, ní fhéadfadh sé gan a chreidsint agus a thuigsint go gcaithfidh sé teacht luath nó mall. Ar an ócáid deiridh bhí seans agam sar ar scoir an Seanad ar a laethe saoire, nuair a bhí an tAire Talmhaíochta os ár gcomhair, d'iarr mé air aghaidh a thabhairt ar an gceist chéanna. Ní raibh mé ag cur i gcoinne an iasacht airgid a fháil ó na Stáit Aontaithe. Ní raibh mé ag cur ina choinne ach mhearbhraigh mé dó an t-amhras mór a a bhí orm arbh é an rud ab fhearr dúinn a dhéanamh dul ar aghaidh ag fáil airgid ar an mbealach a bhímid á fháil. Rinne mé iarracht a chur in iúl dó, gan sceibheal, nó panic, a bhunú i measc daoine, an dainséar a bhí ann d'airgeadas na hÉireann fré chéile. Cuimhneoidh an Seanad ar an bhfreagra fonóideach magúil a thug sé dom; an t-am d'imeodh an punt go mbeadh sé féin agus mé féin in ár sclábhaithe sna mianaigh salainn i Siberia. Sin é an dearcadh a bhí aige sin ar an scéal. Ní féidir leis, ní féidir le haon Aire a rá nár meabhraíodh dóibh an chontúirt a bhí ann, agus mura meabhrófaí féin dóibh é ba cheart go mbeadh staidéar agus ullmhúchán déanta acu uathu féin agus go mbeadh beartas réidh acu nuair a thiocfadh an t-am.

Níl mise sásta aontú le Seanadóirí sa leithscéal a rinneadar gur tháinig an rud seo chomh tobann sin ar an Aire agus ar an Rialtais nárbh fhéidir leo aon rud eile a dhéanamh. B'fhéidir nárbh fhéidir leo aon rud eile a dhéanamh ach mar a rinneadár, is é sin, díluacháil a fhógart nuair a díluacháladh an punt Sasanach, ach is díth céille a rá gur tháinig an scéal go tobann orthu. Ní féidir leis an Rialtais a rá go rabhadar ró-ghnóthach; dá mbeadh aon obair mhór déanta acu leis an dá bhliain atá siad istigh b'fhéidir nárbh mhiste, ach ní abróidh aon duine gur chailleadar a lán allais, nó, má chailleadar, go ndearnadar a lán chun an costas maireachtála a laghdú mar ghealladar. Níor chailleadar móran allais, nó má chaill ní féidir a rá go raibh toradh dá bharr nó go raibh laghdú i gcúrsa cánach. Ní féidir a rá go raibh siad ró-ghnóthach ag ceapadh beartais chun imirce a stopadh agus ba iad sin na trí rudaí a bhí curtha rómpu acu, dúradar. In áit a bheith ag dul i bhfeabhas is féidir a rá go raibh siad ag dul i ndímheas. Dá mbeadh Billí os ár gcomhair nó obair mhór dá dhéanamh ag an Aire agus a chomh— Airí i gcúrsaí na tíre níor mhiste liom. Ní hé sin amháin é, ach tháinig cuid acu isteach sa Rialtas, mar dhóigh dhe, mar gheall ar go raibh scil teicniciúil acu agus go raibh a n-aigne déanta suas acu faoi céard ba cheart a dhéanamh maidir le cúrsaí airgeadais dá mb'fhíor dóibh féin. Ceist atá chomh tábhachtach leis an gceist seo is é an chéad rud é ba cheart dóibh a thabhairt faoina réiteach má bhí siad i ndáríre. Chuir an tAire Airgeadais agus roinnt Seanadóirí i leith an Bhainc Ceannais nach ndearna siad mar ba chóir i dtaobh na ceiste sin. Ní dóigh liom gur cosaint réasúnach nó faireálta é sin. Ritheadh Acht an Bhainc Ceannais sa bhlian 1942. Bhí an cogadh ar bun annsin le ionann is trí bliana; bhí an cogadh ar bun ar a laghad le breis agus dhá bhliain san am. Bhí an Seanadóir Baxter agus Seanadóirí mar é ag rá gur cheart deireadh a chur leis an gceangal le sterling. Ba mhaith liom tuaraiscí a gcuid cainte a léamh ach ba mhaith liom go ndéanfadh duine éigin sa Seanad nó taobh amuigh a spáint cé an chaoi a bhféadfaimis ceangal le haon airgead eile ar domhan i gcaoi a thiúrfadh toradh rathúil don tír. Má mhol siad dúinn ceangal le dollars, ní raibh sé sin indéanta san am. Dá ndéanfaidís é, mar adúirt an tOllamh Ó Briain, cén toradh a bheadh air?

Cad is féidir a dhéanamh anois?

Níl mé a rá gur féidir aon rud eile a dhéanamh.

As you knew all about it months ago you should have a policy.

Bhí a fhios sin ag an Aire dhá bhliain ó shoin.

So did the Senator. He knew all about it.

Ag an Aire atá an chumhacht agus ag an Aire a bhí an chaint.

I was always open to suggestions. I got none from the Senator.

Is beag "suggestions" a bhí ag an Aire nuair a bhí Bille an Bhainc Cheannais ag dul tríd an Dháil.

The suggestions I made on the Central Bank Bill were not accepted.

Le teacht arais ar an bpointe, an bhféadfaimis ceangal le haon airgeadas eile? Dúirt mé san am atá caite gur mhínigh mé gur cheart dúinn ceangal leis an bpunt. Is ceist é an cheart dúinn leanúint leis an gceangal sin. Mar a mhínigh an tOllamh Ó Briain—ní hiad seo na focla díreach—ba cheart dúinn breathnú ar a gcóras geilleagair mar chóras orgánach, mar chóras a mbíonn athrú ag teacht air agus ba cheart dúinn bheith réidh athrú a dhéanamh aon uair is gá athrú a dhéanamh. An bhféadfaimis athrú a dhéanamh le dá bhliain ó tháinig an Rialtais isteach? Nach bhfuil sé ráite in alt 3 den leasú a rinneadh ar an Acht Airgeadais, 1930, go bhféadfadh an Banc Ceannais, le toil an Aire, airgeadas na tíre seo a cheangal nó a shuncáil nó a chur ar airleacan, invest, in airgeadas ar bith eile chomh mhaith le sterling? In Acht An Bhainc Cheannais nach bhfuil sé ráite go soiléir go bhfuil dualgas ar an Aire Airgeadais maidir leis an aonaid airgeadais náisiúnta? In Alt 6 céard iad feidhmeanna an Bhainc?

"The bank shall have the general function and duty of taking (within the limit of the powers for the time being vested in it by law) such steps as the Board may from time to time deem appropriate and advisable towards safeguarding the integrity of the currency and ensuring that, in what pertains to the control of credit, the constant and predominant aim shall be the welfare of the people as a whole.

The Minister may, on such occasions as he shall think proper, request the Governor on behalf of the Board or the Board to consult and advise him in regard to the execution and performance by the bank of the general function and duty imposed on the bank by the foregoing subsection of this section, and the Board shall comply with every such request."

Má cheapann an tAire go bhféadfadh an Banc Ceannais, mar shampla, níos fearr a dhéanamh ná mar atá déanta aige, ar iarr sé orthu dul i gcomhairle leis mar gheall ar nithe den tsórt seo? Má chuaigh sé i gcomhairle leo, nó má chuadarsan i gcomhairle leis, cén toradh a bhí ar an gcomhchomhairle?

Má chuireann sé milleán ar Bhanc Ceannais na hÉireann, nach ndearna sé na rudaí ba cheart dó a dhéanamh, na rudaí ba mhaith leis a dhéanamh, ná habradh sé gur mar gheall ar Bhanc Ceannais na hÉireann go raibh an srian air. Nach raibh dhá bhliain aige— agus an spéis speisialta atá aige i gcúrsaí airgeadais—le teacht isteach sa Dáil agus sa Seanad agus a thaispeáint dúinn an laige atá ag baint leis an Acht Bainc Cheannais. D'fhéadfadh sé cúnamh agus cabhair a fháil agus gheobhfadh sé sin le fonn agus fáilte, mar fuair sé ar níos mó ná ócáid amháin ó mhuintir Fhianna Fáil.

I dtaobh an ailt atá san Acht, b'fhiú do Sheanadóirí a bhíos ag caint ar airgead na hÉireann an t-alt sin a léamh go cúramach. Bhearfaidh siad faoi deara, dá mba gá an t-airgead sin a thabhairt abhaile ó Shasana, go bhfuil an chumhacht sin ag an mBanc Ceannais. Más mian leo feidhm a bhaint as, is féidir leis an mBanc Ceannais leibhéal áirithe a shocrú, mar lóisteáil nó deposit d'fháil ó aon Bhanc Tráchtála agus é fháil saor glan ó ús agus ar leibhéal ar bith is mian leis an mBanc Ceannais.

Caithear a lán ama ag iarraidh a thaispeáint gur ar an mBanc Ceannais atá an mí-ádh agus an locht faoin droch-bhail atá ar chúrsaí airgeadais na hÉireann faoi láthair. An té a scrúdós é, caithfidh sé aontú, má tá sé dáiríribh, nach bhfuil ann ach caint agus nach seasfaidh an chaint sin scrúdú ar bith. Tá mé ar fad ar aon inntinn leis an muintir adeir gur gá, de bharr a bhfuil titithe amach le tamall; an scéal a bhreathnú, ach níl mise ar na daoine a chreideas gur ceist í a dhlíos scrúdú ag Coimisiún eile. Tá an scéal scrúdaithe go mion agus go beacht. Taithníodh sé le daoine nó ná taithníodh—na daoine a rinne an scrúdú, is cuma cén scrúdú é, ní dhéanfaidís an obair níos fearr ná mar atá déanta ag an gCoimisiún deiridh a scrúdaigh an scéal dúinn. Tá an difríocht idir mise agus na daoine atá ag caint faoi scrúdú, go gceapaim gur ceist don Rialtas í a n-aigne a dhéanamh suas agus a innsint don Pharlaimint na bearta atá ceaptha de bharr scrúdaithe agus beart a dhéanamh dá réir.

Am ar bith a theastódh uainn athrú a dhéanamh i gcúrsaí airgeadais, is féidir é a dhéanamh taobh istigh de cheithre huaire fichead. Ach tá mise in aimhreas ar theastaigh ón Rialtas athrú a dhéanamh. An bhfuil a n-aigne déanta suas faoi? Ar thuigeadar achrannaí na ceiste? An raibh de mhisneach beartas ar bith a fhoilsiú i rith an dá bhliain atá caite?

Dúirt an Seanadóir Ó Briain nár mhiste leis go dtabharfaí breis cumhachta don Aire agus don Bhanc Ceannais mar gheall ar athruithe cúrsaí airgeadais na tíre. B'fhéidir go bhfuil rud éigin le rá ar a shon. Sílim gur phlémar an scéal sin go mion nuair bhí an tAcht Baine Cheannais os comhair an Tí seo agus sílim gurb é an tuairim a bhí ag furmhór na Seanadóirí san am sin gur cumhacht é sin a bhí chomh mór agus chomh bunúsach nár cheart é a fhágáil ag an mBanc Ceannais ná ag an Aire, ach gur cumhacht í ba cheart é a choimeád ag an bParlaimint féin. Dá gcruthaití dhom go mba ceist cúpla uair a chloig í, bheinn sásta, ach ní ceist mar sin í. Go dtí go gcruthaítear dom go mba gá le cumhacht an-mhór don tsórt sin a thabhairt don Aire nó don Bhanc, bheinn go mór i bhfábhar an nós atá againn a leanúint agus an t-athrú a fhágáil ag an bParlaimint.

Ní raibh an Seanadóir Ó Briain sásta a rá céard ba cheart a dhéanamh, agus bhí ciall aige. Dá gcuirtí an cheist orm, mar a chuir an tAire anois beag, céard ba mhaith liom a dhéanamh, níl mé ró-chinnte céard a mholfainn a dhéanamh. Níl dóthain eolais agam, ach deirim nach gcreidimse go mbrisfí Éire dá mbristí Sasana. Ní duine mé a chreideas go mbeadh ár bpunt i dtubaist dá mbeadh an punt sterling i dtubaist. Fiche bhliain ó shoin bí rogha againn agus cheangail sinn leis an bpunt Sasanach. Bheinn in amhreas gur cheart an ceangal sin a bhriseadh go dtí le gairid. Ach tá Éire éirithe níos neamhspleáighe le blianta anuas. Níl Éire i dtuilleamaí ar Shasana nó tíortha eile an méid agus a bhíodh. Níl mé a rá gur cheart é go mbeadh briseadh glan idir Éireann agus gach tír eile. Táimid i ndon inniu rudaí a dhéanamh nach rabhamar i ndon a dhéanamh an uair sin. An méid a rinneamar le linn an chogaidh le neart neamhspleáchas polaitíochta a choinneáil ba leor é mar fhianaise nach n-imeodh Éire go dtí an tubaist mar imíos an punt Sasanach go dtí an tubaist.

Dúirt an Seanadóir Baicsteir gur comhartha é an mhuinín atá ag an bpobal as an Rialtas nach bhfuil raic ar bun sa tír mar gheall ar an díluachála. Níl a fhios agam. Níl mé ag dul aon buille faoi thuairim a thabhairt. Dúirt an tAire Gnóthaí Eachtracha gur cailleadh £100,000,000 de bharr díluachála. Is dóigh go bhfuil an méid sin caillte—b'fhéidir breis. Cinnte agus má cheapann an Seanadóir Baicsteir gur comhartha é muinín na ndaoine as an Rialtas nach bhfuil rí-rá ar bun sa tír mar gheall air. Tá imní ar an tír mar gheall ar an scéal ar fad, nach ndeachaigh an Rialtas i muinín na ndaoine san am atá caite agus inseacht dóibh an dáinséar a bhí ann. Má bhí eolas acu go raibh an punt Sasanach le díluacháil ar an mbealach a díluacháladh é, ní bheinn ag súil go rachadh siad amach agus eolas rúnda mar sin fhógairt don tír ach gheobhadh siad seans a chur in iúl dóibh an dáinséar a bhí ann agus iad d'ullmhú chuige. B'fhéidir go rachaidh na daoine amach agus earraí a cheannach ins na Státaí nuair bhí an rata exchange fábhrach mar a bhí. Is ceist í ar mhaith an rud é sin. Is ceist í. Ag an Aire a bhí an t-eolas. Bhí a chuid Consuls ar fud an domhain, a chuid taidhleoirí. Bhí an Stát-Sheirbhís ann, idir an Roinn Gnóthaí Eachtracha, an Roinn Tionscail agus Tráchtála agus an Roinn Airgeadais, le hinseacht go raibh rudaí ag imirt mar do bhí agus dob fhéidir leo polasaí éigin a cheapadh.

Níl aon drochmhisneach agam faoi airgead na hÉireann má imíonn £ Shasana síos. Ní haon cheist phrionsabail í, is ceist í an maith an rud é, go mbeadh rate of exchange ann vis-a-vis an punt Sasanach nó vis-a-vis an franc nó airgead ar bith eile. Ní ceist prionsabail í ach ceist an bhfuil sé feiliúnach dúinn nó nach bhfuil.

Ba mhaith liom, dá mbeadh an t-am agam—tá fhios agam nach bhfuil sé faireáilte an Seanad a choinneáil mórán níos faide eile—ba mhaith liom dul isteach go mion ar chuid is mó de na ceisteanna a pléidheadh annseo tráthnóna, mar shompla. Thaithnigh liom an abairt sin adúradh i dtaobh an Rialtais seo agus an polasaí "of vigorous and enlightened determination" atá aca. "Vigorous and enlightened determination" agus an punt Éireannach imithe mar a d'imthigh. "Enlightened determination" agus 20,000 eile imithe as an tír ó Mí Eanáir go dtí Lúnasa na bliana seo agus forbairt na móna imithe go dtí an tubaist ar an mbealach atá. An polasaí a bhí ag Fianna Fáil thug sé misneach agus dóchas. Hionsaíodh é. An millteanas atá déanta ag an obair sin tugtar polasaí "vigorous, enlightened determination" air.

Maidir leis an tairiscint atá os ár geomhair, ní iarrann sé a lán—"that in the opinion of Seanad Éireann the monetary policy of the State should be re-examined in the light of the situation arising out of the British Government's deflation of the pound." Is é an Rialtas ba cheart an fiosrú sin a dhéanamh agus ba cheart don Rialtas teacht os ár gcomhair—ní le tuairmí—ach le polasaí éigin cinnte a d'fhéadfaimis a scrúdú agus ár mbeannacht a thabhairt nó a rá leo nach maith linn é.

I am going to make what I believe will be the shortest contribution to this debate—not because I want to do that but, at this late hour, in fairness to the Minister, I could not possibly go into detail on many practical points arising out of the motion under review. I should like to agree with what Senator Professor O'Brien said, and if the Government accepts the motion simply in its present form I hope they will approach it in that light, and give it the consideration it deserves, bearing in mind that whatever different views we have, we must have stability and convertibility if we are to make progress.

I often wonder what our position would be if we were located 500 miles further away from Britain, but we have to face the fact that our proximity links our economy in great measure with that of our neighbour. It may be news to the House to know that the freezing of sterling is already an accomplished fact. Sterling assets in London are not readily convertible into British goods, as the Irish importer knows when he wants to buy raw material. He can get all the finished goods he requires, but raw material has been withheld because the British naturally want to sell us finished goods with a high British labour content.

If I buy to-day £10,000 worth of sterling at the new rate, I have to pay £13,000 to get it. I also have to pay ad valorem duty of 15 or 20 per cent. on the extra £3,000. We do not want to criticise the Government of any other country but we are entitled to criticise the reactions here. If, as some people feel, there is anxiety that the value of the British £ is going to fluctuate, owing to the colour or the composition of their Government, then we are entitled to say something. I have the feeling that in any investigation our Government may make they should think of the reactions here of a continuation of the position. It may or may not be a permanent form of Government, but its effect on us must be considered by our own Government if it sets up the investigation body suggested in the motion now being debated. My two points are that the freezing of assets exists, and there is further the imposition on Irish importers in the way of revenue duty payments on currency losses.

I wish to get some information as to the effect that devaluation of the £ will have on Irish live stock and agricultural produce in England. I should also like to know what effect it is going to have on imports of fertilisers and agricultural machinery. If the position in that respect is satisfactory, I expect the only thing we can do is to stay where we are and stick to the £ and, as was suggested, of the two evils to choose the lesser. Farmers are not personally interested in the £400,000,000 or £500,000,000 invested in England. They are satisfied to leave that matter in the hands of the Minister. Devaluation may be a blessing in disguise. It will possibly make our bankers and financiers realise that there is no safer investment in the world than investment in Irish industry, in Irish land. It may make the bankers and the financiers here pull away from the apron strings of the "Old Lady of Threadneedle Street" and depend more on themselves, realising that the proper place for Irish money to be invested is in Ireland where they have sovereign security. As the motion asks for a statement from the Minister I shall not delay the House but give the Minister his opportunity.

There have been numbers of speakers but I must confess my disappointment by saying that I expected to get some help from the Seanad on this matter of devaluation, or any change that might be suggested in that respect in the more distant future. There was some sort of unanimity amongst Senators that what the British did had to have effects here. No one has countered that. To that extent the motion as it stands is to a certain extent a vote of confidence, even backed by Fianna Fáil, in the Government attitude to the crisis which arose. One or two points of an individual type were made by Senators, and before getting to more general topics, perhaps I should deal with them.

Senator Ireland referred to the bankers but I think he made confusion worse confounded. He asked Senators to agree with him that credit for a socially desirable purpose was a good thing but that it should be achieved without debt. He went on to say that he had no liking for those who thought monetary reform was a way that favoured the printing of notes. If Senators can advise me how I can have credit without getting into debt, limited or complete, I would be very glad to get a lesson. The Senator asked about investments in British picture houses and picture palaces. I do not think it can be said that there is any desire on the part of those who control Government funds, or people who control the Central Bank, or even commercial banks to invest especially in British picture houses. As far as the commercial banks are concerned I do not think anyone can expect any other investment standard than that which now obtains. When it comes to Government funds, the Government may have other considerations to bear in mind such as the increase of productivity in the long run. There is also the social consideration which the Government are always bound to bear in mind. Any preference investors may have for British picture houses rather than home investments, is a consideration, with other considerations, that has to be taken into account by the Government in approaching investment policy.

Senator O'Brien has agreed—at least he set the line which most of the other speakers followed—that once devaluation as a crisis developed there was no resort which the present Government could adopt other than the one that was adopted. At the time, I stated through a communication to the Press and over the radio, that we followed the course of least disadvantage. We have never pretended that it had all the advantages, but I would not have anybody say that that course was to be explained by the use of a phrase such as that the knife was at our throats or that our backs were to the wall and that there was nothing to do but give in as gracefully as we could and accept the inevitable. It would be a matter for a body like this to consider whether if the legislative ties were not as rigid, there was a policy open to us other than devaluation. Consideration might also be given to the question whether we could have established a completely new currency. Senators will bear in mind that there were many other considerations besides that of legislation— financial, social and other ties which would have driven us—let us say, forced, induced or invited us to follow the road which the British followed. These reasons are based mainly on the fact that we have such intimate trade relations with Britain that if we did not follow their devaluation we would have been threatened with a disadvantageous situation in competing with our competitors in our principal market. While I accept the viewpoint about the particular situation in which we found ourselves, with the Currency Act of 1927, and the Central Bank Act, 1942, binding us in the way they did, it does not hinder me from saying that, if those things had been different—if there had been a different situation—I am not at all sure that the whole balance of considerations would not have driven us to accept devaluation and accept it as fully as the British did.

Senator O'Farrell has raised a point with regard to the sterling assets of the Central Bank. These assets, low as their yield is, represent moneys which the bank holds and which have to be dealt with in rather a peculiar way. The bank is required to invest in short term sterling securities because they have to protect themselves against a demand arising from their liability in respect of the note circulation. For that reason their investments have to be almost entirely of the short term variety. A question may be raised as to whether they should be to such an extent in short term investments as they are, but that is not a question of principle; it is only a question of the extent of the holdings. There is another point—if the sterling holdings under the control of the Central Bank were made available for Government borrowing, that raises an entirely different question. It is a question which might require debate by itself because one would have to consider the inflationary effect of State borrowing from Central Bank funds. What the Senator said suggested to me that he has in mind that there are other funds such as funds invested in England by the Government, by the joint stock banks and by private investors and that relates to the point raised by Senator Professor O'Brien which I will deal with later.

But when he comes to the attitude of the banks to the Corporation of Dublin, in its recent effort to float a loan, he gets into financial considerations of the private type. The view has been expressed recently that the Corporation of Dublin could stand as the most credit-worthy corporation in the world. Without at all wanting to depreciate the standing of the corporation, I doubt if that phrase is a good phrase—I doubt if they are that. At all events, they approached the private banks for a loan of £5,000,000 and, for reasons best known to the banks, but about which we can speculate, the banks informed them that they had decided they would not advance them the amount of money they required, £5,000,000 at that particular time, but they did say they would advance half of it at a particular rate. The rate has been questioned. It bears a good comparison with the rate prevailing for sterling investments. No doubt, the banks had in mind the question of the price stability of corporation stocks and how freely they are marketable at any given time and also how freely they are marketable if thrown on the market in any big quantities, and, having taken a view of that the banks made up their minds that in regard to the corporation they had alternative investments of a better type. One cannot blame the commercial banks for taking that financial consideration into account. There is a good deal of clamour that the banks should think more about the provision of amenities like housing. But the banks probably say that it is for some authority other than banks to deal with that. They would probably pass the matter on to the Government and say: "If you can improve the situation by some other method, maybe we could lend you the money, because the investment might become a more profitable one." However, I do not think, at any rate, that Senator O'Farrell said anything against the banks of the type that used to be said about them—that the commercial banks were against housing. They are not. They have their own standards and we cannot object to their having them in regard to the particular proposals which come before them from time to time.

Senator Baxter has put the point that the whole banking policy requires at this point careful and exhaustive study. It has been getting that for months past, and will get it in the future, and if there are people with ideas which they will put forward to me in the form of a memorandum of suggestions I will be happy to receive them and to have them examined by those whom I have around me. Senator Baxter, I think, was touching on the national note when he said that many people were unhappy that when the British devalued we immediately followed their action on our side. I take his remarks to mean that a number of people share the view that it is a wrong thing to have the currency of a whole country put at the mercy, so to speak, of the manipulators of currencies in other countries and that that position is nationally degrading. There may be something to be said for that, but that could only be removed, if, suppose, we had none of the limitations of the definite type which I have already mentioned. But how far would it remove or alter the facts about the need for automatic devaluation on our side? In our present legislative circumstances we had no option but definitely to follow suit. One is left to speculate what would have happened if on the 18th of September last, or even now, supposing the legislation were changed, and if, say, we had a new currency situation here and the Irish pound was left to find its own level. I waited here to find if anybody would suggest or if anybody would say that the Irish pound would be at a better value than sterling is at the moment. I do not know if anybody would suggest that; certainly not one put it forward. We could easily remove any unhappy feelings about national dignity and we could most easily establish confidence in what is supposed to be the national dignity if we had not regard to our internal price structure, our price level and to everything that makes for inflation and if we thought it would have resulted in a better situation than the one we are now in.

The Senator, however, did say that our pound is more valuable in America than the British pound. Those kerbside merchants in New York, when the traffic was going on in pounds in the months before devaluation, found that a higher price was paid for an Irish pound than for sterling. That is so, but the position is that under our exchange control system, as it now operates, we permit the bringing back into this country of our notes, our own legal tender, but in consultation with the British we do not permit the bringing back here of their sterling notes. Consequently, what happens is that anybody who buys our money in New York does so knowing that it can be freely brought back here, but if he buys British notes, he knows he has to run the risk of smuggling and the difference in the rate being paid for our notes as opposed to sterling was simply the gambler's evaluation of the risk of being caught smuggling, and there was nothing more in it than that. That, I hope, will not be regarded as an oversimplification of what has happened— it is the truth with regard to the matter.

Senator R.M. Burke says that he senses a feeling that panic would be caused if the suggestion were made that a change should take place in the present relationship. As the debate was conducted here, I do not think there could be any question of panic because the whole matter has been discussed quite soberly and the currency situation here vis-á-vis the monetary situation in England has been debated in a somewhat detached way by people here. It may be that in more serene years, it will be possible to introduce legislation of the type which Senator O'Brien thought might be brought in, giving a discretionary power to some member of the Government, such as the Minister for Finance, alone or in association with the Central Bank, to vary rates of exchange. I would rather wait, however, and I am not sure that if we were in more even times I would not argue against any change and decide in favour of the present situation.

There are a considerable number of private individuals who have to be thought of in this connection. All these moneys which are regarded as sterling holdings have come from the work and endeavour over the years of various people in the community. They have been gathered together by the labour, enterprise and productivity of various people and I should hope that in this country at least we would still have some regard for the virtue of thrift and would encourage the habit of saving and realise the value of saving. If we have any regard for these things, we should set out on a course which would inspire confidence and we should make people believe that, if they invest in Government securities, if they invest in national loans or put money into the Post Office Savings Bank or into Savings Certificates, their moneys will not be liable to sudden fluctuations, even when it is only in the minor matter of international exchange, because the Government has a particular viewpoint. I still think —and I understand that Senator Ó Buachalla has agreed with this point of view—that it would be far better to have the situation as it is at the moment. If there is any change, it should be by way of legislation, so that there would have to be an approach to the people, and that, in any event, the Government could not act suddenly in what might be a rather panicky way and that they would know that if any change in the exchange rate were contemplated, it would have to be justified by the process of coming before the two Houses and having a debate.

In this country, both the Dáil and the Seanad can be summoned at very short notice and it is possible to have even a succession of bank holidays to stabilise conditions while the matter is being thrashed out. It is not so difficult to get a change, and, if a crisis arises, some such procedure may have to be adopted as that which obtains in regard to Budget matters, where a resolution is passed on the first day stabilising the matter up to a certain point, subject to whatever changes may have to be made as a result of subsequent discussion. It is a matter which we are not immediately concerned with here because there is no question of taking such legislative powers at the moment, but I ask Senators to think over it and later they may have a better considered view. If we do come to consider some change in the legislation bearing on this matter, they might bear in mind the considerations I have spoken of.

Senator O'Brien spoke of the legislation of 1930 which enabled certain changes to be made by Order. These changes could only be made subject to two conditions. One was a unanimous report from the then monetary authority, the Currency Commission, plus an affirmative resolution passed by the Legislature. The amendment which was made later left it in this way, that if there is a unanimous resolution passed by the Central Bank, then the Government can act by Order, but if there is a lack of unanimity on the part of that authority, the Government must again await an affirmative resolution passed by the Parliament. That is the situation we have at the moment and I think it is not a bad situation. If there was such an emergency as would demand a sudden change, one could, I think, take it that the Central Bank would unanimously accept and recommend whatever the change was. That is how it stands at the moment and I personally do not think we should make any change for the time being.

Senator O'Brien—I single him out, and I hope that, in doing so, I will not be regarded as making little of the other speakers; I single out his remarks chiefly because he was a member of the commission which signed the report in 1938, and, in addition, the remarks he made to-day have a special interest—divided the subject matter discussed here into two parts: the question of the exchange rate and what was rather confused with that, the matter of investment in this country as opposed to investment outside this country. One good thing has occurred to-night, that is, that right through all the speeches, there was not merely an absence but a specific disavowal from time to time of the old feelings that used to appertain when these matters were discussed with regard to the bogey of the international Jewish financier. Everybody talked then in terms of horror of the power these people wielded and of how secretly and insinuatingly they worked. It is apparently accepted now that whatever has been done in this country has been done after quite mature consideration and after as much examination had been given to it as was given to any subject, with possibly one exception.

Senator O'Brien referred to the fact that the 1927 Act was passed after a commission, presided over by Mr. Parker Willis, a very eminent person, had sat. The Act of 1927 followed the recommendations of that first commission and that lasted until the change of Government. When the change of Government took place, a group of people—I am not parodying them when I say that they had expressed themselves as vehemently opposed to the situation created by the 1927 Act, so that it cannot be said that they came in prejudiced in favour of the existing situation—established another commission. That commission is the commission which brought forth the report which is called the Report of the Commission of Inquiry into Banking, Currency and Credit in 1938. You had, therefore, the situation that two commissions, and the personnel of these commissions will bear scrutiny at any time, reported to two different Governments and the two Governments having, as it was thought, different viewpoints not merely on quite a number of other matters but on this question of finance, accepted the recommendations—the recommendations, in the first case, which were given effect to in the 1927 Currency Act and the recommendations, secondly, of the 1938 commission.

Surely it will be accepted that, as between the two sets of governmental people and the two sets of inquirers on these commissions, the whole question of currency, finance and banking in this country got an objective examination and I do not think it could be alleged that there was any international Jewry or any bogey of an international financier in the background. What they recommended was followed out and put into operation in the 1942 Act, following on the 1927 Act. What has happened, of course, is that years have rolled on since then and, as Senator O'Brien says, the people who considered the matter in 1938 had not prescience enough to forecast not merely the war of 1939 but the length of it, the devastating destruction caused by it and the amazing consequences of the war. Senator O'Brien indicated that the time is ripe for the examination again of these matters.

In the mood in which it was approached in the Seanad to-night I do not see how there can be any part of this panic, as Senator Burke said, which is usually associated with the subject; it was taken quietly to-night. Circumstances have changed, years have gone by and there has been an amazing change in the situation which Great Britain occupied in international banking and finance and it may be that a new examination might call for some change in the situation we find. It is in the mood certainly that I take the resolution of the Seanad. In the circumstances we should see what can be done or what ought to be done and approach Parliament eventually if anything is found which should be done. The argument to-night does not seem to be in favour of making any change. The arguments that ran round the House to-night were in favour of staying where we are.

As far as people have adverted to trading conditions between this country and England and investments there with the type of investments accomplished here at home and the difficulties when we consider the balance of payments in 1952, the weight of the argument so far has been against change if I had the power to do so. The tenor of the argument has been that even though it was the "course of least disadvantage" any other course would have had disadvantages of a frightful type. There is no sudden change and there is no necessity for a sudden change but as in every time, circumstances change and there is need for cautious observation of what is happening so that we should be ready to make a change should the occasion call for it.

I cannot add to the things Senator O'Brien said on what would have happened had we decided not to devalue in mid-September when Britain did. He talked about the colossal scale on which there would have been infiltration into this part of the country by people seeking to take advantage of the exchange rate from Northern Ireland and Great Britain. He adverted to the matter of the banks and he asked me a question about what we should have done. I am at a loss to give him an answer; I would rather simply pass the question on to the banks to ask them what they would have done. If we had not devalued or if we had not devalued to the full extent, the situation of the joint stock banks would have been very peculiar indeed. They have their burden of liabilities here in the State and against that they have certain investments here and in England. If these had to be written down in relation to a new Irish currency if we had kept it appreciated it would have meant that the morning after devaluation in England every one of our banks would have shown themselves insolvent on the face of their last balance sheet. How that might be rectified would be for them to decide except that they might have come to the Government seeking compensation for its action as they might have alleged that our action had put them in that position.

Senator Counihan asked about the effect of devaluation on cattle. In so far as we have devalued and kept in line with Britain the situation is just as it was before and devaluation to this extent should help our agricultural exports: it will make no difference in price relations but it will help our agricultural exports because as far as Britain was buying any elsewhere, particularly from dollar areas and hard currency areas, she will be more ready to turn to us and the market is more wide open than ever before. The Senator and his friends in the cattle trade might consider the situation if we had not devalued and the terms of Irish currency were raised by, say, one-third more than the day before because that would have been the situation if we had decided to keep the £ as it was.

I was looking for information.

Well, I hope the information will help the Senator. Devaluation will help our exports to Britain particularly on the live stock side, but he asks about the situation with regard to fertilisers and machinery. As far as fertilisers are concerned we are getting an increase in supplies of fertilisers from non-hard currency areas and fertilisers, the Senator I am sure is well aware, have dropped considerably in price and the situation is fairly even. The price of agricultural machinery will depend on the area from which it is bought. If it is a hard currency area of course it will undoubtedly go up in price. If it is any other area—and it will be possible to switch over to other areas— there should be no disadvantage but the Senator at any rate is getting the advantage in the other way. Cattle have not dropped in terms of Irish currency as they would have dropped if we had not devalued.

The second matter generally referred to was the whole question of investment. It is a separate matter. It is somewhat connected with, but may be detached very much from, the question of the rate of exchange and the point whether we have completely and entirely a currency of our own or are harnessed on to sterling. As far as investments are concerned, in the Budget speech this year I said:—

"To avoid an increase in the taxpayers' burden the accruing resources of the Counterpart Fund— the amount of which depends, of course, on Ireland's dollar allocations under the European Recovery Programme—must be invested in a manner that will ensure an increase in revenue sufficient to service the external debt."

I added however:—

"The necessary increase in revenue may be secured either directly, by investment in public projects which are in themselves of a profit-earning character, or, indirectly, by developmental expenditure calculated to increase the national income and, automatically, the yield of taxation."

That is the proper procedure. I read here from a book by a well-known economist:—

"Government issues are gilt-edged securities; but Government investments cannot be expected to be made in gilt-edged propositions that produce an immediate or a safe return; the mentality of a Government in making an investment should not be that of a private trustee, but rather"—I want to emphasise this—

"a judicious long-range estimation of increased taxable capacity resulting from a given utilisation of national resources, including especially man-power resources lying idle during a trade slump."

That is the policy that Senator O'Brien had recommended here before I made the Budget speech. He spoke in the Seanad and agreed that a project like land reclamation was good although it did not give an immediate return in remuneration. It was an investment, good in the long run, to increase the productivity of the country. We have followed along those lines, but it is not yet realised, I think, to what extent we have followed. I have a return here of the Receipts into and Issues from the Exchequer. The return I have in my hand is that between the 1st April, 1949, and the 15th October, 1949. I make the comparison as between the 1st April, 1946, 1947, 1948 and 1949 to a date in mid-October, the nearest date I can get to the 15th October in those years. In 1946, as between 1st April and the 19th October, there was spent in capital investment, that is, there had been issued for all these under the line capital investments, £712,000. In the next year, 1947, in the same period, from April to mid-October, it was £2,968,000. In 1948, in the comparable period, it was £4,121,000. This year, to 15th October, it was £7,452,000. That calculation I can fortify with this remark. Pre-war, over the whole financial year 1938-39, there was provided for capital development £1,519,000, whereas the amount that we have estimated and provided for in the financial year 1949-50 is £14,500,000. In the face of that fact, can anybody complain that we are not making a fairly bold effort to draw back investments from abroad and embark on investments of a productive type here?

As a matter of fact, I have been myself sometimes terrified at the amount of money which has to be provided for these investments. It is well known to Senators that in 1948, when I applied to the public for moneys for the National Loan, I had a loan which was over-subscribed. When I went to the public this year, I had not the same good fortune: the public did not subscribe, by about £4,000,000, the sum that was required. I shall have to go to the public again very soon for further loans. If I could feel that the investing public had the same desire to have moneys put into Irish investments as Senators have, I would be very happy. Unfortunately, they are the people who have the money and we are occupied in talking about them. The question is whether we can induce the habit of saving and investment, whether we can induce people to believe in home investments, to accept the social considerations in the background of some of the investments we ask people to make. These are the things that lie immediately ahead of us. But if the public do not come forward with these moneys, then it will not be possible to proceed with capital development at that rate; and if that is the case it means that at least the private investor has weighed things in the balance and decided that he would rather lend to a British picture palace than to the Electricity Supply Board or some other project in Ireland. However, we will induce them as well as we can.

That leads to another consideration. Comment was made here—I think I have answered it—that the Irish £ in the counting-houses in New York was valued higher than the £ sterling. There is one reason I have given for that. When people say that our economy is more soundly based and, therefore, will offer a more secure investment than money in England, we have to consider the reality of the situation here. From one angle, it is very good to enthuse about capital development here at home and at times hearts might beat a little bit faster when they hear of these sums of money increasing from £700,000 up to £7,500,000 over a period of the financial year. But sending that money into circulation through the hands of the community, into which the money must get when expended, has, of course, a very definite inflationary effect. Unless it were to lead to an immediate production of goods— and very little of this money as expended in this way is to lead to an immediate production of goods—there is bound to be inflation. So at once while I am pursuing this desirable course of making a tremendous increase in capital development, do not forget the other side, that I may be weakening the value of the Irish £ and, with the high rate at which Government expenditure is running, our capital account and current account and with our situation in respect of balance of payments, I am not too sure. We are not too strong, possibly, to present ourselves to the outside world and claim that our £ is better than the £ English. People here are accustomed to look across the Channel and see all the defects in the situation in England and complain of all the money that they are circulating, causing inflation and weakening the purchasing value internally of their own currency; but we are following very much the same programme at home. Senator O'Brien has said he agrees that one may take the risk and, even though in the short run what you do may have an inflationary effect, it may be necessary to take the risk in order to get certain desirable objectives achieved. We have weighed that risk and have taken the risk, but it is not a very happy side of our situation and it may be that the investing public has surveyed the position and come to its own conclusion, and maybe that was why subscriptions did not roll in for the last Loan in such volume as they might have.

One Senator asked me what depreciation has taken place in our holdings of sterling securities. Without going into too much detail—and it would require a tremendous amount to answer that question in full—I can give a general answer, given with reservations. What are sterling securities? I am taking only the securities under my own control, so to speak, like the Social Insurance Funds. As far as the Central Bank securities are concerned, they have to be located in a particular way. As the investments they deal with are short-term the question of depreciation does not arise to the same extent. With regard to the sterling investments of the Social Insurance Funds there was a certain depreciation. The depreciation was somewhere say between 4 and 5 per cent. and was prior to devaluation and has nothing to do with it. If I am asked the effect of devaluation I have to say I do not know for the time being, as the position has been rather fluid since then. The immediate effect of devaluation on the capital value of securities was not as great as it was thought it would be. There was a little slump and then a certain recovery, but one would have to wait for some time to see the effect. There was a depreciation of the capital value of sterling assets held under Government authority by 4 or 5 per cent., having nothing whatever to do with devaluation.

I am asked, then, about our own sterling assets and what is going to result from devaluation: There again, there seems to me to be a considerable amount of misunderstanding of the position. Regarding our sterling assets, in so far as they are invested in fixed interest securities, it must be expected that they will depreciate in relation to imports from countries outside the sterling area. I want to make that great distinction. If one contemplates this country having to use all the holdings that the Government has in British securities to buy goods from America, then there will be a full depreciation of the amount of devaluation; but in so far as we do not buy anything from the dollar countries, you cannot say that is the situation. Even though we do not buy immediately from the hard currency areas, still, there may be some deterioration in the purchasing powers of these assets arising out of devaluation. That will arise in this way: if the cost of the goods we buy in England increases because, say, their raw materials have a certain dollar content, then you can say that our holdings have lost a certain amount of value because of devaluation. Similarly, if because of conditions in England there is a new movement towards increased wages and their prices again go up, and that is traceable back to devaluation, and we have to pay a dearer price, then it can be said that our assets have suffered in value because of devaluation. But, the immediate direct impact of devaluation is felt only when we use any of these holdings to purchase from the hard currency areas. That, I say, is subject to reservations. It can be analysed. A good deal of comment can be made. It is not a full statement but I give it as a general statement of the situation.

Somebody asked me about the effect on such things as tobacco, petrol and wheat. Again, one man's opinion is as good as another possibly in that. As far as wheat is concerned, there is a peculiar situation in this country. There has been a very high price guaranteed for home produced wheat and the result of that has been that it is still cheaper, even after devaluation, to buy abroad than to get our wheat grown at home. There will be, of course, other considerations. I do not say that that will be the only consideration that will operate. At any rate, there is good hope that the dollar price of wheat may drop because the position at the moment in America is that they have sold only 4 per cent. of the annual quota of 168,000,000 bushels which was to be the sale under the International Wheat Agreement, and they already have a piece of legislation before Congress asking for a tariff or something to make more active the wheat purchasers. So, with a very big wheat harvest this year, if economic laws play any part in that country, even the dollar price of wheat must fall, so that the increase due to devaluation will be off-set. At any rate, we have our own position here at home.

As far as tobacco is concerned, there are certain cushioning circumstances. I do not think there is any reason for any increase in the price of tobacco here for many months to come. At any rate, people may console themselves with this, if it gives them any consolation, that when they buy the packet of cigarettes and pay 1/8 they are only paying 6d. for the tobacco and the labour of making up the package and paying 1/2 in duty. In other words, they are paying 6d. and 1/2 worth of duty, so that the effect ought only be on the 6d. unless other considerations weigh with me.

Similarly with regard to petrol. The landed cost of petrol is 7d. a gallon. There are costs of transport and distribution but, in the main, the division is 7d. for the landed cost and everything else is duty. So that again, if there is any increase, the increase ought only affect the 7d. and it should be small.

On the whole, with regard to the main commodities that come to us from dollar areas, the circumstances are good enough to warrant us saying that there ought to be no immediate increase, there ought to be no appreciable increase in the near future, and we may hope that other considerations would develop before these cushioning effects would have passed away.

I will accept the resolution from the Seanad, particularly in the mood in which it was moved here to-night. People have not really been critical of what has happened in the past, people, in the main, recognising that it was not only the course least disadvantageous but the course most advantageous to follow. I think the Senators will ask me to keep under observation the changes that have taken place since the 1938 commission, to have an eye to all the changes that have taken place and to come back if I think anything should be done.

We should still maintain the present situation and it would be wrong to give a Government by itself—it is a personal point of view I am speaking at the moment—or a Government even linked with a currency authority, power, except in very special circumstances, to make any sudden change. People ought to know that if there is any change of that nature made it will be done by a Government that will face the people on it and face a debate in which the whole matter will have to be thrashed out and consideration given to the circumstances that have compelled them to make the change.

As the primary mover in getting this motion brought before the House, I would like to say that what governed us was that there was a good deal of talk in the country and we felt that, if these complicated matters ought to be discussed, the calm atmosphere of the Seanad was the best place to start. I think the Minister agrees with me. As the mover of the motion, I feel that it was well worth while, if only to get the statements we have had to-night.

Motion agreed to.
The Seanad adjourned at 9.40 p.m.sine die.
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