Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 29 Apr 1953

Vol. 42 No. 1

Department of Lands (Establishment of Foresters) Bill, 1952—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

An tAire Tailte (Tomás Ó Deirg)

Bille is ea é seo chun céimíocht bhunaithe a thabhairt d'Fhoírinn Foraiseoirí na Roinne Tailte. Ceaptar nach sásúíl agus nach oiriúnach an nós imeachta é sin a dhéanamh trí ghnáthriaracháin Choimisiún na Stát-Sheirbhíse, sé sin comórtas nó serédú poiblí do chur ar bun.

Sa chéad dul síos, táimid chun foireann uilig na bhforaiseoírí do bhuanú. Níl sé ar aigne againn an líon atá ann fé láthaír do ghearradh síos ná do chúngú, mar sé an cuspóir atá againn iad uilig do bhuanú anois. Chomh maith agus is féidir linn a fheiceál, san am atá le teacht beidh obair seasamhach agus obair thábhachtach ann agus dualgaisí fé leith orthu. Mar sín ní ag cúngú ach ag leathnú atá na seírbhísí seo.

Mar gheall ar na cáilíochtaí, níl foraiseoirí tréineálta ná cáilithe in aon tslí eile ach tríd an scoil oiliúna atá ag obair fén Roínn Tailte. Déantar cúrsaí ansin agus ag deireadh an chúrsa téann siad amach agus faigheann siad obair mar fhoraiseoirí agus mar sin tá siad uilig cáilithe. Tá an cúrsa déanta acu agus dá dtéití an rud chuig Coimisiún na Stát-Sheírbhíse bheadh sé andeacair aon scrúdú nó comórtas a chur ar bun, mar tá siad uilig cáilithe cheana féin.

Tá deacrachtaí eile ann. Tá ceithre ghrád d'fhoraiseoirí ann fé láthair agus dá dtéimis ar aghaidh trí scrúdú do chur orthu bheadh orainn iad do dheighilt ina gceithre ranganna agus scrúdú nó comórtas do chur ar bun do gach rang. Ní gá é sin do dhéanamh, mar tá síad uilig cáilithe, fiú amháin má tá ceithre ranganna ann, agus tá siad uilig ag teastáil uainn.

As a rule, when public servants are being established and made pensionable, the procedure is to have a competition or examination under the Civil Service Commissioners. In the case of the forester staff, whom we propose to establish as permanent and pensionable under the present measure and of whom there are 163, it was considered that the usual procedure of going ahead through the Civil Service Commissioners was not appropriate, and was, in fact, unnecessary.

I should say, first, that the work these foresters are doing is essentially permanent in character, and they have for a long time been pressing their claim to be made established. Certain difficulties in the way of sympathetic hearing of their claim have only recently disappeared.

The objections to their establishment in the usual manner under the Civil Service Regulation Acts are briefly as follows. So far as we can see, there will be no need for any contraction of the staff of foresters in the future. It is more likely that the staff of foresters will expand. There is, therefore, no necessity to retain a proportion of the staff, or any number of the present forester staff, on a temporary basis and to establish the remainder. Therefore, there does not seem to be any necessity for a competitive arrangement or an examination. This point of view is strengthened by reason of the fact that all the foresters are qualified and have reached a standard of qualification which can be accepted.

Forestry development in this country, as Senators know, is almost entirely the concern of the State, and there are scarcely any opportunities outside the State service for acquiring a good knowledge and experience of large-scale forestry work. Forester staff requirements for departmental purposes have to be obtained by teaching and training suitable candidates at the State forestry school. Most of the present forester staff were so trained, and they are all qualified and experienced officers. In those circumstances, I think Senators will agree that the holding of an examination or a competition under the Civil Service Commissioners would be a time-wasting and unnecessary procedure.

There are also technical difficulties, by reason of the fact that there are four different grades of forester, the highest being that of head forester. There is also the difficulty of holding a competition where, in fact, it is the intention to appoint everyone who is qualified and who is in the service already.

I do not think that the Civil Service Regulation Acts were designed to meet precisely this case and I think also they are not the best machinery for dealing with it. I have obtained the consent of the Government, therefore, to seek the approval of the Oireachtas to have the forester staff of the Department established by means of this Bill, which is quite straightforward and which renders the formalities of a competition unnecessary.

Mr. Baxter

I do not suppose there will be any objection raised to the passage of this Bill, but one or two questions occurred to me to which I would like an answer. I take it that all these people to whom this Bill applies are in the capacity of people only temporarily employed. If that be the position, do we understand that these people have not been receiving the ordinary incomes that attach to the office of an established officer? Again, to how many people will the Bill apply and what will be the added cost of the service, by reason of the fact that these people are being established? Will they be established on their present salaries, or is account to be taken of the service many of them must have rendered up to the present, or what is the position to be in that respect?

The whole problem of forestry in this country is one that has caused a great deal of discussion and on it we hear many different views expressed from time to time. I wonder whether any of these people to whom this Bill is going to apply have had any opportunity of studying the problems of forestry outside the country? It seems to me that if we are going to build up an efficient forestry service one of the things we ought to do is to select from amongst the most efficient and competent and best-educated young men who will go into the forestry service, men we could send out of the country to see what is being done in the forests elsewhere. There are, I think, enormous possibilities for the development of afforestation. I do not think we have yet faced up to the task at all. I realise that it is very difficult to make real progress if the service has to be rendered by a staff of people only temporarily employed, who have no security of tenure, who are not benefiting as they should from their years of service and experience. I am convinced that the Minister's action in this matter is perfectly right. The foundation on which we must build up an efficient afforestation programme and plan our policy must be on the competence and security of the staff employed.

I think we have a great deal to learn. There were people in this country, members of the Oireachtas, who in years gone by attempted by propaganda to convince the people of the responsibility and obligation on us to do something more for afforestation than was being done. We have accomplished very little since the State was set up. This task is not tackled with the vigour and enthusiasm with which it should be faced and that creates a problem for the people in the future.

We have enough experience to know that we can grow trees all over the country. We have achieved a certain amount of success, but I believe we have still a great deal to learn and it is very important to ensure that we are constantly adding to the store of knowledge of the men charged with this great responsibility. I am satisfied that we have got to give them proper status in the State. I think we have to ensure, too, that there is a wider field from which they can draw information and knowledge—more than is available to them here at home.

My concern is, in so far as this Bill makes a contribution to give security to the men who are at present employed, that they will show greater enthusiasm in their work and display a confidence in their calling and realise its importance to the State. We desire to see every man carrying out this task. At the same time, I would ask the Minister to give us, if he can, some indication of what the added cost will be. I do not think any of us will have hesitation in saying that these people have not been overpaid, and, in addition, if men are to improve their standards of knowledge and draw upon a wider field in the educational and scientific sense, they are worth more to the nation and we ought to be prepared to pay them. I think we ought to be prepared to spend the money on building up that kind of service, because the more efficient these people become, the more efficient the service will be and the more valuable to the nation.

If the Minister will tell us what the added cost will be, perhaps he will also tell us to how many people this Bill is going to apply and where in the country they are. We have just a few areas. Where are these people situated?

I would like the Minister also to tell us does this indicate a new policy on the part of the Government. I do not know how many thousands of temporary officials there are and have been in the service of all the Governments up to the present. Their numbers have been added to as one Government succeeds another. Pleas have been made in the past on behalf of many temporary officials. There is another branch of the Minister's service where there are many temporary officials, some of them as long as 15 years in the service and they are still temporary. That is wrong. Does this indicate a new departure in Government policy? As far as I am concerned, I would welcome it.

Mr. Hawkins

I think every Senator will welcome the measure the Minister has brought before us. It relates, as far as I am aware, to a very small number of persons—some 140 persons I understand—people who, should they lose their employment, would find their chances of other employment very limited because, as the Minister has pointed out, there are few, if any, private individuals engaged in forestry development in this country. For that reason it is only just that this concession should be made.

This is not a Bill on which we can discuss afforestation in general, but I would like to avail of the opportunity to suggest that we should make more use of our schools, particularly in getting our people forestry-minded and tree-minded and in particular in avoiding the great waste such as was caused recently by forest fires.

An Leas-Cathaoirleach

We seem to be getting away from the Bill.

Mr. Hawkins

Perhaps so, but I would just like to emphasise for our young people the importance of avoiding forest fires throughout the country.

Mr. Colgan

I welcome the Bill, and I would like to ask if the temporary services of these people are intended to be taken into consideration when they are established. This is important, and while it is not relevant to this Bill, I would like to support Senator Baxter on the question of temporary employment in the State service. It is an outrage that men who have given long service should not be made permanent, because, possibly, they did not get a standard of education to enable them to pass an examination in their early days. They have given good service to the Department and that should be taken into consideration. It is important that you should give a chance to men who have given 30, 40 or 50 years' work in a temporary capacity in the Civil Service.

Mr. Burke

Might I ask if these servants who will now be taken over under the Bill will, while ordinary civil servants, be compelled to retire at 65? Has the Minister considered the hardships which might be inflicted on a number of these people by this being insisted upon? I know persons retired out of the State service, and I think they are in need almost of public assistance. The younger men in the service want them to get out so that they can get their positions and the older men are not able to live. This applies in this country more than in other countries, because people are inclined to get married late in life, and often a man coming to 65 finds the greatest demands by his family arise at that time. Only this week, I was approached by a man in the public service who was so afflicted. Often when they are acting in a temporary capacity they do not compel them to retire at all, and when they are established they may be made retire. The State cannot afford to carry all these people retiring at 65. It has now been proved that it is not within its competence to carry them.

Mr. Derrig

I should explain that while the Bill makes no provision for reckoning previous unestablished service for pension purposes, it is the intention to allow one half of previous analogous service to be reckoned, subject to the various standard requirements. The officer will, of course, have to have given continuous service and also will have to satisfy the Civil Service Commissioners, through the Department, as to his health. Outside these standard requirements, it is the intention that one half of previous service should be given, and there is statutory provision already by which this can be done. It is in accordance with the current general practice in similar cases and I think it is an important and a good concession because there is no actual entitlement to allowance of any previous service in such circumstances. The temporary officer is there even though he is in a whole-time capacity and may be on a graded salary scale and getting increments, as those foresters were, their employment being of a quasi-permanent character. Nevertheless, they were not entitled to establishment and we are making them a special concession.

When I was in the Department of Lands about ten years ago, I had this matter before me, but I was not able to establish the foresters at that time. However, I intimated that I would endeavour to have them made pensionable, and I am glad to have the opportunity of carrying out whatever undertaking or understanding was given at that time. We are following the common practice and, while it is true that there are large numbers of unestablished civil servants who are not getting this privilege which the forestry staff are getting, we cannot have it both ways.

We cannot welcome the establishment of foresters and then almost suggest that there is something unfair in doing something for the foresters while so many—running into thousands, I think—public servants are not established, even in my own Department, as Senator Baxter has pointed out. To that extent I think the foresters are favoured.

The reasons are obvious. It is a growing and important service. I am glad to say that the men working in it are animated by the greatest zeal and devotion to forestry and are anxious to push it by every means. They are indeed very assiduous. Their task carries a special responsibility. They are outdoor officers. In regard to all local conditions, including the recruitment of labour and the administration of the forest centre, all these matters are in the hands of these officers whose responsibilities, it will be seen, are not light. Some forests are up to 2,000 acres and although we will not see it we hope that many of them will in time be up to 5,000 acres. Some plantations in Wicklow are likely to reach that figure.

Mr. Baxter

Will the Minister tell us how many people are affected?

Mr. Derrig

There are 163. They will not all be on pension at the same time; the great majority of them are young men and even the older men are not likely to be superannuated for some years to come. In view of all that, the estimated annual cost will be between £1,500 and £2,000 at the maximum.

With regard to their going out of the country, our conditions, of course, are not the same as those on the continent of Europe where they have old-established forests and certain conditions which do not always obtain here. We have found that the conditions in Britain or on the west coast of the United States—if we could afford to send them there—are similar to ours. The tree which has been most successful here, Sitka spruce, comes from the west coast of the United States.

In Great Britain they have much the same problems as we have with regard to the type of land and the acquisition of land. The trees have all to be planted and there is not a great deal of natural regeneration. All the woods cut down there, as here some hundreds of years ago, have not yet been replaced. We are in touch with them and when there is an international conference at which we think our inspectors would learn something, we send them. Foresters and inspectors are in touch with the universities and some have done university courses in the Faculty of Agricultural Science in the National University. We have some agricultural science graduates and these men are able to keep in touch with research and with what is going on in other countries. I am entirely in favour of keeping services like forestry in close touch with what is going on elsewhere and we do that as far as possible.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take the remaining Stages to-day.