Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 29 Apr 1959

Vol. 51 No. 1

Adjournment Debate. - Third Amendment of the Constitution Bill, 1958: Dáil and Seanad Debates.

Professor Quinlan

The matter which I wish to raise on the motion for the adjournment is that the Government should take steps to ensure that copies of the Dáil and Seanad debates on the Third Amendment of the Constitution Bill are made available to the public at all post offices and in all public libraries. Before I begin, I must draw attention to the absence in this House of any Government representative. I think the most valuable instrument we have got here is the opportunity to raise matters on the Adjournment. I regret that the Government have not seen fit to treat this motion seriously, as I am treating it. My reasons for this motion come under five headings, although it should scarcely be necessary to show the necessity for such an elementary thing as informing the public on the vital issues that are at stake in the coming referendum. Still, I shall give my reasons.

First of all, we have the fact that this referendum involves a change in the Constitution. That is something which is fundamental and sacred and has been agreed as such by all Parties. It therefore behoves us to have a rational and impartial approach so that if the Government are sincere in their protestations, that they want the public to judge this issue, then the necessary information will be made available to them. My fellow university Senators and I being independent members deeply resent the implications which were made by those on the opposite side against our impartiality. Nevertheless, we will do our duty whether it offends Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or Labour; we are here from the universities and that is our task. As long as we go under the label of Independents, we will act as Independents. We have always insisted on the necessity for an impartial inquiry in this matter. We have not got that but we have had the case made by some Government spokesmen that the debates here are a substitution for that impartial inquiry or commission. We had the words of the Minister for External Affairs who said, when we pressed for a commission:

"We have had a commission of 147 men sitting on the proposed change for almost three months in the Dáil and I do not know how long it is going to take here. I think that is the best type of commission."

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator will understand that he may not go into the whole merits of the case on the motion for the Adjournment.

Professor Quinlan

I understand that. I am giving my reasons briefly in support of my motion and I have quoted the Minister for External Affairs as giving the debates of the Dáil and Seanad the status almost of a commission. Surely if the Government regard those debates in that manner, they should agree to this motion, that those reports should be made freely available through the means I suggest?

Again, we have the absence of any authoritative guide to the voter. Any other country that set about changing such a fundamental aspect of its Constitution would have a report of a commission available for the guidance of the voters. Sweden has been mentioned at great length and Sweden had a commission in 1948 and they appointed another one in 1954 when they wanted to make some other adjustment in their Constitution.

I take it that it is the central core of a democratic approach that a reasonable body of evidence should be made available. Consequently, I can see no reason whatsoever why this request should not be met. It may be mentioned that these reports are on sale to any citizen who cares to buy them, at the Government Publications Office, at only 6d. each. I have found out that that is a myth because, in effect, 120 copies of each day's sitting are made available to the Government Publications Office. No more will be issued or printed unless an order is given for a very substantial fraction of 120. In fact, to get reprints of the debate here of February 12th last, I had to give an order for 120 copies. At present no reprints are available at the Government Publications Office, and therefore I take it that this, in effect, is burying the very extensive and reasoned debates that we had in this Chamber ranging over six weeks and also the debates in the Dáil.

It is a very reasonable request that these should be made available in all public libraries and in all post offices so that our citizens can consult them freely. It may be asked whether or not they should be for sale in those places. That is purely a matter for the Government. I think it would be well to have them on sale as well as having them available for perusal by voters in these places.

Finally, I should like to say that since the debate here I for one have been very disturbed by the very biased approach of some newspapers in reporting on it. I had my own experience where two letters were printed by a newspaper attacking the university Senators because we dared to do our duty here. Remember, that we were not attacked when we voted for the Fianna Fáil nominee as Chairman of the Seanad—and quite rightly so—and we would do so again. We were not attacked on any occasion on which we voted with the Government, but we were attacked when we saw fit to express an opposite point of view. Those two letters appeared in the official organ of the Government Party and I felt called upon to reply to the second one which singled me out, without mentioning my name, and misrepresented what I had said. Over four weeks ago, I sent a letter to the newspaper and two weeks after sending it, I telephoned in connection with the letter but it has still not appeared.

Mr. Barry

Very naïve.

Professor Quinlan

I should expect that at least if a paper prints letters attacking a member of this House, it will give that member the courtesy of an opportunity to reply to the attacks. It is for that reason that I feel the voters must be enlightened. This is the cheapest and only available way at the present time—unless the Dáil in its wisdom sees fit to accede to the very reasonable request put by those opposing the motion to set aside the decision of the Seanad. If that goes through, of course, we shall have what we regard as second best, a committee of this House and of the Dáil which will sit and sift the evidence, the debates and so on and present a report on the proceedings of these two Houses which will be some guide to the voters. In the absence of that, at least the other course should be taken and these debates should be made available.

We are not to be prevented from doing this by any financial considerations. The amount involved would be very trivial. At most there would be 8,000 to 10,000 bound booklets costing about £1 each. That would be the very outside cost. In other words, a trivial amount would be involved, but a great amount would be involved for the ordinary people down the country. Consequently, I appeal strongly that this suggestion be accepted by the Government in the spirit in which it is moved. Then the voters in their approach to this decision on the referendum will be able to approach it in a strictly non-political, non-Party manner and will be able to distinguish between the political issues, the candidates going forward for the Presidential election, and the fundamental issue which is the constitutional change proposed in the referendum.

Professor Hayes

Before Senator Mullins replies, may I say I regret very much that it has not been thought fit to have a Minister present for this question on the adjournment? It has been the unvarying practice of the House—and I have had the experience of it from this and the other side of the House where the Senator now sits— that a Minister should be in attendance. That practice has been broken in this instance. I do not see any reason for it, because there was pretty long notice. Also, the other House is meeting and, though the matter is not a departmental one, I do not see any difficulty would have arisen in having a Minister here, as has been the practice, to state the Government viewpoint.

I should like, not so much from the point of view of the merits of the matter, or from a political or Party point of view, but from the point of view of Seanad Eireann, to take exception to that omission to-night. I regret very much as a Senator that it has not been thought fit to have a Minister present here as is usual to express the point of view of the Government.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

Ministers have responsible jobs to do. Surely it is not expected that for every crackpot motion which is submitted——

Professor Quinlan

May I take exception to that, please?

Professor Hayes

Oh, better not.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

——a Minister should sit here to listen to transmissions from outer space. I do not see any reason in the world why a Minister should do it and I do not agree that it is any breach of etiquette or anything else in connection with this House.

Professor Hayes

It certainly is a breach of precedent.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

Senator Quinlan must be a very simple man, if he cannot see the obvious objections to the proposal which he makes. He must be so immersed in the pursuits of science that he never stood in a rural post office, or has probably never had time to go into the busy post offices in the city centres, where he suggests these books will be displayed.

Let us bring him back to earth for a few minutes. He seems to think that the people are ill-informed on this matter, in spite of the fact that the Dáil and Seanad have debated this proposition very thoroughly over the past six months. To enlighten the people further, he makes the fantastic suggestion that copies of the Dáil and Seanad reports of the debates should be made available in post offices and public libraries. Has he, even before he spoke on this matter, got the 29 booklets of the Seanad and Dáil debates which incorporate the debates on the Third Amendment of the Constitution Bill, and just put them up together on a table? Has he any idea of what the 29 booklets would look like? There were 17 booklets covering the Dáil debates and 12 booklets covering the Seanad debates. If Senator Quinlan has ever gone into a post office in a city or rural area to check the electors list on publication to see whether his name and address were included in it as an ordinary voter, independent of his university status, he will know how awkward it is for postal officials. They have one copy of that list hanging up and at a time perhaps when people are coming home from work, two or three citizens may say: "Give me that list until I check whether my name is on it." These 29 booklets would be hanging up somewhere in a post office. Apart from considerations of space, I commend the idea to Senator Quinlan that he should go into a post office and just ask to have a look at the register which hangs on the main counter. It is only one slim volume. Then he might appreciate the difficulties which would be involved in hanging 29 volumes.

He seems to think that there is no difficulty whatever in this proposition and that the cost is trivial. There are 2,269 post offices and approximately 2,587 municipal and county libraries. If a single copy of each of these debates were to be made available for each of these post offices and municipal and county libraries, 140,824 copies in all would be required. The Senator has given us figures for the number of copies normally printed, but I do not think the figure he gave us was correct. I think the reports of the Seanad debates go to a little more than the 100 odd he mentioned; the Dáil debates are printed up to about 800, I understand, per issue. Therefore, in order to comply with this proposition, there would have to be a complete reprint of every one of the 29 booklets. I would ask Senator Quinlan to put himself in the position of the postal official on a very busy day in a crammed post office—say, Friday, when people are coming in to draw the old age pension. Now, there are 29 booklets of these Dáil and Seanad debates on the Constitution Amendment Bill and two or three people come in at one time, all in a hurry to get back to work after lunch and each of them wants to read Senator Quinlan's speech.

Professor Quinlan

Or yours.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

Or mine. They would get more valuable fruits out of mine than out of Senator Quinlan's.

Mr. L'Estrange

Self praise is no praise.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

Suppose someone comes in and asks for Senator Quinlan's speech and another person is looking for another speech in the same volume, how does the Senator think they will be able to work it out? Even from the point of view of using the books for reference purposes in post offices, it would be impossible, because on the basis of getting them reprinted and hung up in single volumes, they would not be indexed and would be very little use for rapid study or consultation.

Another thing the Senator urges is that they should be put into local authority libraries. As far as I know, the Minister for Local Government has no authority to direct what particular book should or should not be put into any municipal library, and therefore from that point of view, it would be impracticable.

As regards the suggestion that the people are not well informed, surely, as I said at the start, the widespread publicity given to these debates on the Bill, in the Press and on the radio and in discussion groups throughout the country, including rural organisations at which Senator Quinlan so often speaks, should be proof enough that the subject is a live one and that it is being discussed and debated from one end of the country to the other. It has been front page news in every daily paper here in the past six months.

The coverage by newspaper and radio of the Dáil and Seanad debates was excellent. In the Dáil, the debates took 97 hours, spread over 17 days. In the Seanad, they got 63 hours, spread over 12 days. It might be interesting to recall that the entire debate in Dáil Éireann on the draft Constitution in 1937 lasted only 63 hours, spread over 12 days. There was no Seanad at the time. In this case, on the Third Amendment of the Constitution Bill, the debate in both Houses probably lasted longer than any debate for many years past.

Nobody can say that the people are not informed on this matter, because in addition to all this, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is obliged, by law, to provide copies of the Bill for inspection or for sale at a cost of sixpence in every post office. The result is that when the decision is definitely arrived at to nominate the polling day, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs must put into every post office a copy of the Bill which can be inspected there by the citizens and copies of which can be bought, if they so wish, for sixpence.

In addition, and most important of all, every person whose name appears on the Register of Electors and who will have a vote in the referendum will get by post with his polling card a statement agreed on by the principal Parties in Dáil Éireann explaining the proposal to him and enlightening the people on what they are called on to vote for in the referendum.

In our opinion, this is quite sufficient. We do not believe that the people are suffering as a result of the lack of these volumes in post offices. We do not believe it is a practicable proposition to put them in post offices or libraries, and we are quite satisfied that with the polling card and the explanatory card that people will get on the morning of the poll, the matter is adequately met and catered for.

Prof. Quinlan

Senator Ó Maoláin has made the greatest possible case for the motion.

An Cathaoirleach

There can be no reply.

The Seanad adjourned sine die at 9.50 p.m.