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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 2 Dec 1959

Vol. 51 No. 14

Restrictive Trade Practices (Amendment) Bill, 1959: Committee and Final Stages.

Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2
Question proposed: "That Section 2 stand part of the Bill."

In the Dáil, Deputy Cosgrave made a point on Section 4 as to whether or not the Commission could hold an inquiry into matters such as container traffic. As reported at column 965 of the Official Report of 11th November, 1959, the Minister replied: "As the Deputy will see, the section as it reads applies to the use of ‘particular materials or particular methods for manufacturing or construction purposes'." That is quite correct. On Section 2 (2), if the supply and distribution of goods are taken into account, I wonder whether or not it is possible for the Minister to have an inquiry instituted into (1) the container traffic mentioned by Deputy Cosgrave in the Dáil and (2) into the position of the dockers who are paid to travel with cattle but who do not travel? The importance of this I would point out by quoting Paragraph 75 of the Report on the Export of Livestock and Meat by the Advisory Committee on the Marketing of Agricultural Produce, which states:

The German importers were extremely critical of the practice whereby shipping companies engaged in the shipping of cattle from Dublin to Germany are required to pay men at Dublin Port for attending to the cattle on the sea journey to Germany although in fact the men never travel on the boats with the cattle. The payments to these men who perform no services represent about 12/6d. or 15/- per beast and they are, of course, reflected in the freight rates and so in the prices paid here for the cattle.

I submit that in that instance there is a restrictive trade practice.

I wonder whether, even though the Minister assured Deputy Cosgrave it could not be taken into account on Section 4, that matter could be taken into account on subsection (2) of this section. Deputy Cosgrave mentioned container traffic. I know something about the importation of machinery from Britain. I imported some myself two years ago. The manufacturers of this machinery positively refuse to allow it to be sent here except in containers, because similar machinery sent here some time previously had been dropped at the quayside and was irreparably damaged. Very wisely, they insisted that these goods would remain in containers from the time they left their premises until they reached the premises of the purchaser.

The eventual outcome of all this was that because this machinery, within the container, weighed seven tons, it had to go, not to any Louth port, which would have been most convenient and most economical, but to Rosslare. Lorries had to be sent to Rosslare. The machinery had to be loaded on those lorries in Rosslare and brought up to county Louth by road. Those are two obvious restrictive trade practices which, if they cannot be met under the section, I suggest can be met under the Bill. I should like to hear what the Minister thinks about container traffic and dry land dockers, as I think they are termed.

The section means what it says. As I said in the Dáil in reply to Deputy Cosgrave, it relates to an operation such as the refusal at one time of carpenters to handle steel windows. That does not apply now.

The Minister is referring to Section 4. I am accepting his explanation to Deputy Cosgrave. I asked if the two very restrictive trade practices—he mentioned one and I mentioned the other—could possibly be dealt with under subsection (2) of this section.

The answer is no. It is not intended that it should, either.

Would the Minister not agree that the words "supply or distribution of the goods concerned" should take in those restrictive trade practices, even though in one case they happen outside the country or only for a moment as the boat leaves with cattle on it? In the other case, goods going out of the country or coming into the country have to go through a particular port of exit or entry because container traffic will not be handled at other ports.

Under the original Act, Section 7, in particular, the Commission is not empowered to inquire into such a matter as container traffic. The purpose of this section is to permit the Commission to inquire into a particular aspect of trade in order to avoid the necessity of embracing the entire activities within that trade. If they find something ought to be inquired into, one particular aspect, this enables them to obviate the necessity to take into account the entire activities of that trade. It does not purport to extend the definition of the original section to cover activities such as container traffic. The question of container traffic is actually being investigated at the moment. It is not the intention that this Bill should have anything to do with it.

Does the Minister not think this Bill should provide the power so that in future it can see to it that investigations are carried out? Would he not agree that it is a flaw in the Bill not to have that power?

I raised this matter on the Second Stage also. One of the greatest restrictive trade practices and one of the greatest impediments to the growth of our economy is the fact that container traffic is not allowed to be handled. Will the Minister give an assurance that the matter will be dealt with quickly if it cannot be dealt with on this measure which deals with restrictive practices? We have to compete against a subsidised agricultural economy in Britain. We ought to be able to have the most efficient system of transporting our goods the ingenuity of man can devise so that we can use the best and most modern methods of conveying our goods.

The Minister and the Government deliberately seem to be determined not to take the power here to investigate container traffic and dry land dockers. I feel that a moral responsibility devolves on them at least to take that power so that investigations under this Bill can be carried out in the future, even if it is not the intention of the Government to do anything now, and so that they can investigate at least these two very restrictive trade practices.

The refusal to handle container traffic by the dockers comes within trade union practice. It is not the intention that activities of trade unions should be investigated by the Fair Trade Commission. I want to assure the Seanad that I am very well aware that the refusal of dockers, particularly in Dublin Port, to handle container traffic has a serious effect on our economy. I think the Seanad and everybody know that the matter is under very active consideration, that the employers and the workers concerned are in negotiation on it. It is my desire to see a speedy conclusion to these negotiations. I hope this can be arranged. These matters are very delicate. It is very difficult for a Minister who might know what stage is being reached, or about to be reached, or what stage it is hoped will be reached, to mention it in public. I want to assure the Senator that that is receiving the close consideration of the members of the Government.

These matters are under active consideration by the unions. I know that the Minister's finesse and his whole make-up is such that he would not say anything that would prejudice such negotiations. If the restrictive trade practices of businessmen and trade unions are not investigated—and they are a most necessary facet of this Bill—the Bill is a completely milk and water Bill. If the Bill does not give power to investigate the restrictive trade practices of the trade unions, it is, as I say, a milk and water Bill.

I think the Minister is quite right. After all, he is considering the matter and it is not merely a matter for him alone but for the whole Government. It is a very big question which involves not merely the trade unions but the shipping companies as well.

I do not want restrictive trade practices to be operated by anyone in the community. There should be the same law for the workers as for the employers. It seems to be commonsense that if we are to get anywhere in the business sense and market our produce properly, we cannot have our costs of working so high that no one can afford to live. We should do it in the right way. I should like an assurance from the Minister that he will introduce a Restrictive Practices Bill in this regard as he has told us it is intended to introduce a comprehensive Rents Bill. We have got no assurance that this matter is to be dealt with. I am told that during the past 12 months restrictive trade practices added £12 to the cost of every motor car. With regard to the export of turkeys, the National Farmers' Association wanted to be allowed to send turkeys out in containers to avoid their being mishandled by others.

I think we ought to be realistic about what this Bill hopes to achieve. If the Fair Trade Commission investigates a set of circumstances and recommends the making of an Order, the Minister may make an Order affecting the supply and distribution of goods. If he makes an Order requiring the trade unions to act in a certain way, we must examine the question to see to what extent the Minister's Order can be made effective. It is all very fine to suggest here that the Minister ought to take certain powers but a Minister can take only powers he knows he can exercise. If he takes powers that might paralyse the country, he might be doing far worse than if he left matters as they were.

The fact is that these matters are not being left as they are. The matter in question should be resolved and can only be resolved to complete satisfaction by negotiations between those concerned, the shipping companies and the dockers employed on the quays. Unless it can be resolved in that way, I do not see any other way by which it can be overcome, with any reasonable hope of making the solution effective. Negotiations are proceeding and it is hoped that they will be brought to a conclusion at an early date.

I hope the Minister's hopes in that regard will come true. Let us pre-suppose they do not. These restrictive trade practices are costing farmers 15/- a head on their cattle exports and there is this trouble about turkeys in containers.

If the Fair Trade Commission investigated the matter and produced a report, it would be accepted by the majority of the Irish people. That would expose the situation and show the rights and the wrongs of it. Is the Minister aware that two of these dry land dockers were in a public house not long ago and when they heard on the weather forecast that there was fog somewhere out over the sea, they said: "Give us two more half-ones; we are on overtime"?

The Minister said it would not be practicable to enforce a section such as Senator Donegan and I suggest but it is a pity that it is practicable to enforce a section with regard to the employers. If the people charged with the responsibility feel that they can enforce a section with regard to only one group of the community, would it not be fair to say: "We shall not bring in any legislation to force employers to do anything because we have not the power to force the employees to comply with the law with regard to restrictive practices"? It is very unfair to employers if they say they cannot enforce the law on employees. It is very unfair to limit the restrictive trade practices to one group because they cannot limit them in respect of every citizen.

It is usual to discuss what is in a Bill and we are now discussing what is not in this Bill. I do not think Senator Donegan and Senator Burke know the whole situation. I was reluctant to interfere. This matter is under investigation at the moment and I think it is the desire of the trade union movement generally that an equitable solution should be arrived at. It is not so easy as Senator Burke seems to imagine. If he knew a little more, he would know that the introduction of container traffic in Dublin would suit some firms and would not suit others, and that is probably the underlying difficulty which has complicated the issue. I hope a solution will be found in the course of these discussions.

This is progressive legislation, not comprehensive.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 3 to 10, inclusive, agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.
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