I should like with your permission, a Chathaoirleach, to dwell on a number of points raised by Senators which were in fact completely irrelevant to the Bill. Indeed, very little has been said about the Bill apart from the suggestion that it is really not necessary and that there is no justification for such a Bill at all. If I had my way the local elections would be over and done with by now. Despite the fact that they would have followed the general election I think it might have been a very good thing. My view would probably be influenced by the fact that I belong to a political party, as indeed, do most members of local authorities, despite their disclaiming any aasociation at times of elections. It would have been easy for the organisers of the parties if, in fact, we could have had this election immediately but one of the reasons why it was not possible for me to press this was because—as the House is probably aware—there was then awaiting a determination of the new boundary of Cork city which is taking in quite an extensive additional part of the county. It would have been rather ludicrous to have held an election on the basis of the old boundary and then find, after a couple of months, that it did not have any real bearing in regard to those elected.
On the other hand, one might say that I could have left Cork out but it would have meant special legislation and some bother in excluding Cork and having their election later. I do not think that would have been more acceptable to anybody. That is my own feeling about it for what it is worth. Neither do I hold the view that we should have gone ahead and ignored the change in the law and have the election sometime after the summer recess, say, October, November or December. That, I think, is asking too much of the people whose task it is to try to encourage our people to come cut to vote. These, again, are the political party organisers without whom, regardless of what some people may think of them, this could not be done. It would have been difficult for them to have just recently been at full strength for a general election and then, after an interval of four or five months, expect them to rise again and try to get our people to come out to local elections in the numbers we would wish.
I think we should try to attain the voting we would all wish—that is to have a really good turn out and have a proper poll in these local elections which are very important and are becoming even more important as the years go on. There may be a feeling in some quarters that these do not serve any important purpose but I think their role is to secure that every person who is capable of voting, does so, and but for them many thousands of people would not bother coming out to vote.
This brings me to the matter of those people who complain after election day that they did not have a vote. I am inclined to be somewhat uncharitable to those people. They are given every possible encouragement, every possible notice, and most of them who are the loudest in their complaints have obviously done little about ensuring that their vote is available to them by taking the normal precaution which they are asked to do on many occasions. They should look at the local register and, if their name is not there, ensure that it is inserted. As to the compilation of the register, I should say that rate collectors are, in fact, employed and paid a small amount of money on the basis that, if they should have anything greater than one per cent of error in the compilation of the register in their electoral district, the amount of money promised to be paid is reduced. My own feeling about the amount of money available for rate collectors for this particular job is that, in most cases, they would forgo the money rather than do the job. It is rather difficult to bring about an improvement as they might refuse the money offered. Quite a number of them would opt for the removal of the entire amount if the onus to do the job were removed with it. That is not to say that they do not make a very good effort.
It is not true to say that the register in these years is less accurate than it was in years gone by. If, in fact, our efforts in the direction of accuracy mean anything or have attained anything, then the register should be much more accurate than it was five or ten years ago. We have given quite an amount of publicity to the compilation of the register as various times through public advertisement, through television, through radio, through stamp cancelling machines. through public notices in post offices and other public buildings, through rate collectors and through the check by the Garda Síochána which is done at a later stage. There is also the extension of time which has been allowed when claims and objections may be made by any individual or any person on behalf of a political Party or otherwise. This has been allowed in order that a greater amount of time can be devoted to corrections at this stage when we are getting near the time for publication and printing.
In addition to this, there are appeal courts held all over the country by various people responsible for these registers. Again, every opportunity is afforded to the public and public notice is given of these hearings. If people, after all that, have not their names on the register, while I should like to know what further can be done, I really do not appreciate that there is much we can do to ensure that people will get their votes if, in fact, those same people are not sufficiently interested at any particular time during any given year to take the local draft register to see whether or not their names are on it. All of these things should add up to a very accurate register.
Judging by the number of complaints one hears voiced, it would appear as if the register is in a shambles in many parts of the country. This, I do not believe. In the Dáil, I did invite from any and all my colleagues specific details from their particular constituencies where there is an obvious lack of accuracy or a falling-down on the job of compiling the register. This invitation extended not only to these matters but also to all the other matters complained of here.
Personation was mentioned in the Dáil and here. I make the same appeal to the Seanad as I made to the Dáil and this is to furnish me wit any specific details Senators may have of single cases of personation but particularly if there is any widespread personation that they may be aware of. In regard to the invitation to the Members of the Dáil—this was some weeks ago—as yet, I have not had one single specified case set out for me by any of the people, including those who made the complaint. It may be that they have not got around to it yet or that when they came down to seeking the specifics of the case they talked about, they found they did not exist at all. This, I hope is true. I now make the same appeal to the Members of the Seanad that if they are aware of abuses, of personation taking place, of widespread inaccuracies in the compilation of the register, or, indeed, of any other matter that would seem to reduce the effectiveness of our elections and our electoral laws, I should be extremely glad to be furnished with any details any Senators may have.
The printing of the year on each page of the register has been suggested as something that might be very useful. I would imagine that this would be no great difficulty. However, we would have to print, rather than a year, the double year, say 1964-65 or 1965-66, and so on, and, in turn, it might possibly lead to some confusion. I do not readily see that myself at the moment. I shall bear it in mind and if I can see no reason why it should not be recommended I do not see why it should not be applied in the future printing of the register.
Senator O'Sullivan mentioned that polling stations or polling booths are probably not placed in a way that would fit in with our present methods of getting to the polls with transport of the present day and that they may be a carry-over from the war years. This may be quite so. In many places where I have been throughout the country, there are far too any polling stations, too small, catering for very few, requiring a great deal of time and, indeed, a bit of cost in the manning of them such as official appointees, appointing officers, poll clerks, the agents of the candidates, and so on. Where you have to put in these people, no matter how few voters may be on the register, it has to be treated as if there were thousands voting there. It is something that I think has carried over not necessarily since the war years. It is a matter for the local authorities themselves to prepare a realistic polling scheme and adopt it and send it forward for approval by my Department and myself. I should like to see it done. I feel there is great need for it in all too many of our constituencies as of now. The reason is probably that the matter has just been allowed Lo drift from year to year with nothing much done about it and nobody really getting down to the business of doing something about it.
While I myself, and, I am sure, others of you who fight elections and are associated with elections, find ever so many little things one would like to see rectified during an election, the position is that, once the election is over, one forgets about those things until the next time when they become irksome again. The polling schemes do need some modernising. I appeal to all Senators who are members of local authorities to bear in mind that it is a matter you yourselves can do and I would ask you to bring these polling schemes up to date.
Senator Sheehy Skeffington asks whether there is in this Bill the power in law to continue the membership of certain school attendance committee co-opted members. I would refer him to subsection (3) of section 3 for that power which I feel is contained there. The election of committees—vocational education committees and school attendance committees—has been complained of as carrying too many non-elected members and it is suggested that a greater number of elected members should be on those committees. There is probably an amount to be said for that view in some counties—not all of them—but, again, this is a matter of opinion. I have the feeling that, to the degree that the law allows, the elected people—those who have got to seek election through their local authority elections, local council elections— should go on to the numbers allowed or required by law and that the additional people, the non-elected members, should be kept to the minimum. However, I am quite open-minded in this. This is my mind on it. It may correspond, maybe for different reasons, with the view of Senator Sheehy Skeffington and that other people have quite different views, I have no doubt.
Polling cards were mentioned. It was suggested that the production of a polling card was taken as absolute proof that the bearer was entitled to a vote on the register corresponding to the name and number on the card. Of course, this is entire bunkum. Not only that, there is a notice on the card to say that it does not confer any right on the bearer and that it is a card issued for the convenience of the voter, as voters will appreciate. If a presiding officer is prepared to stand on the production of a polling card as absolute evidence of the identity of the person so presenting the card then I am afraid I would not agree that that presiding officer was being very wise or very prudent.
I am afraid I do not agree with the belief that personation takes place on any sort of widespread scale. Not only that, but I would assert very definitely that it does not exist to any degree except the most infinitesimal degree throughout the country as a whole. Talking for a large city area such as Dublin, I cannot be so definite but I feel that personation is not a widespread matter. If, in fact, it exists, I think it must be on a very small scale, indeed. But in the country as a whole, I would say that the amount of personation is absolutely infinitesimal. Of course, this is not due to the fact that the people in rural parts are more upright and are beyond such manoeuvres as these. It is due entirely to the fact—certainly it as due to a very great degree to the fact—that in the country everybody knows everybody else and the hopes of getting away with personation are almost nil.
That, together wifh the fact that people do not usually wish to take the risk of the penalties that may follow from being caught out personating, ensures that we have an almost clear clean record in the greater part of the country and covering the very great majority of our entire voters and those entitled to vote. If there is anything that anybody can suggest as to how I might by law, regulation, direction, advice or otherwise help to grapple with any personation which anybody feels takes place, I would be only too happy to examine any suggestion in that way. I invite all members do submit to me any specific cases that have taken place in no matter what way and no matter in what area they may have taken place.
Finally, in regard to the question of the voting rights of mental hospital patients it has been asserted by An Seanadóir Ó Maoláin that this was as a result of a recommendation of an all-pariy committee, and I think I did hear it being contradicted while it was being said. I can say in this regard that, while it might not be clearly stated in the recommendation, there is no doubt whatever that the intentions of the recommendations of that committee, having been put into effect, have brought about the situation wherein mental hospital patients now have votes. As to the attitude of those who have the job of caring for the mental patients such as attendants and others, I do not see that we are very competent to deal with whether or not any I attendant is entitled to or should accompany a patient or any group of patients from one part of the institution to the point at which the polling station is located. This is a matter which would be really within the competence of the RMS or the authorities within the hospital. I certainly would not feel competent to judge as to whether or not this was necessary or unnecessary in any particular case.
I do not agree that the majority of the patients in mental hospitals are more easily swayed than are the people outside whether that means that there is something in common held by those who are in and those who are out I am not prepared to say; but it is my belief that a great number of our mental patients are, when it is their day—and this happens in many cases and many of them have a very great number of days out of the entire year-as competent to judge the merits of a candidate, a party or policy and, indeed, in many cases more so than a whole number of people outside those institutions at the moment. I hear of all the great influence being used on them but I am not at all inclined to agree with it. On the other hand, it is, as I have said at the outset, one of the matters which is not a part of the Bill and is not relevant to it at all. I can thank you and the Cathaoirleach for great patience in allowing all of us to develop these points which are extraneous to the matter really, and I commend this Bill, which is for the postponement of elections from 1965 to 1966 to the Seanad.