I move:
That Seanad Éireann approves the following Order in draft:—
International Federation of Voluntary Health Service Funds (Corporate Status) Order, 1971—a copy of which Order in draft from was laid before Seanad Éireann on 2nd November, 1971.
International Federation of Voluntary Health Service Funds (Corporate Status) Order, 1971: Draft Order.
I speak to support the motion proposed by Senator Ó Maoláin.
This draft order is being made under the International Health Bodies (Corporate Status) Act, 1971, which started its life in the Seanad and emerged from it a changed and, I think on balance, a better instrument for the purposes for which it was intended.
In the course of the debate on the Act Senators will recall that I mentioned that I expected that it would be used in the first instance to enable the incorporation in Ireland of the International Federation of Health Service Funds. The first corporate status order to be sought under the Act is in respect of the federation.
The setting up of this body was first mooted at the first International Conference on Voluntary Health Insurance held in Dublin in 1966 at which delegates decided to establish an international federation to promote co-operation in the development and study of voluntary non-profit-making health services throughout the world. At the second international conference held in Sydney in 1968 a constitution was adopted which set up the International Federation of Voluntary Health Service Funds.
The aims and purposes of the federation are to assist individuals in obtaining health services and for this purpose to promote the development and study of voluntary non-profit health services throughout the world. These aims are in accord with the type of international body envisaged in the Act. The federation is a non-profit-making body.
Membership is open to—
(1) organisations carrying out, or co-ordinating voluntary health services on a non-profit basis;
(2) Other organisations interested in voluntary non-profit health services; and
(3) persons interested in voluntary non-profit health services.
The Voluntary Health Insurance Board is a member of the federation and its general manager is secretary general and treasurer of the federation. The former general manager of the board is administrative director of the federation. Present membership of the federation consists of 89 organisations under category (1), seven under (2) and eight individuals in category (3).
I am satisfied that the federation is a body that should be welcomed to this country and that its status is such that I would not hesitate to permit its incorporation. I have, as provided for in the Act, consulted the Minister for Industry and Commerce and he has no objection to granting corporate status to this body.
I would therefore commend this resolution to the House.
There is nothing on the face of the order which was deposited in the Library which would lead the Seanad to reject the order. Indeed, there is very little on the face of the order itself which is before us. The order states baldly that the Minister proposes to register the International Federation of Voluntary Health Service Funds and the explanatory note merely adds a short paragraph indicating the objectives of this body. From what the Minister has said in his speech here today it would appear that in this he has added something to the information available to the Seanad.
I rise to speak because I have one complaint to make in regard to this. The Act to which the Minister referred, and which was debated at length in this House, provides that in the case of any body in respect of which an order is made its constitution must be lodged with the Minister and must be available for public inspection at any time. This is a provision which this House approved believing that we should not lightly extend corporate status in this country to a body unless there was full public information. I think that, in the light of this, it is a matter for regret that the constitution of the body was not deposited in the Library of the House at the same time that the order was deposited. When this order was deposited in statutory form in the Library of the House for the inspection of Senators there was not available with it the constitution of the body which the Act under which the order is made says must be available after registration for inspection by any member of the public. It was necessary for me, as a Member of the Seanad, to ask the Librarian to inquire from the Department whether copies of the constitution were available and to seek to have a copy of the constitution deposited in the Library of the House. In the event this was done, but it transpired afterwards that, even then, sufficient copies were not available in the Library of the House for the common usage of the Members of the Houses and the officers.
Indeed, any Member who immediately before today's sitting went to inquire in the Library of the House would find that there were no copies then available for inspection because of the small number of copies that had been deposited. I would ask the Minister that, in regard to any future orders under this particular Act, or in regard to any similar orders, he would take care that the constitution of the bodies should be deposited at the same time as the order is deposited in the Library, even though there is no statutory duty on him to deposit the order in the Library, and that they be deposited in the Library to the same number as is customary in regard to the Statutory Instruments themselves.
I believe that the Members of this House and the other House who are asked to approve these orders in draft should have as much information available to them as the general public are entitled to have available to them after the body has been formally registered. I make this complaint but do not press it because the present Minister has been, down through the years at all times, courteous to the House and I feel that this is an oversight. Nevertheless, I raise it now in the hope that, in the future, the House will be given fuller information when asked to approve of an order of this kind, an order which the Oireachtas itself has said to be of such importance that it needs a positive confirming resolution rather than being subject to the customary practice of possible annulment.
I should like to support what has been said by Senator Dooge with regard to this. We are provided with such scanty information with regard to the matter that I am by no means clear as to what the status of this body is going to be. It is going to be a body with corporate status under the Act, but the order conferring that corporate status on a body to be known as the International Federation of Voluntary Health Service Funds does not tell us what the powers of this body are going to be. I accept that corporate status would not be conferred on the body were the Minister not satisfied as to the respectability of the persons concerned and their antecedents and their good intentions.
There is no provision here determining how, if they want to take extra powers with those they may have at the moment—under a constitution which, as the Senator has said, has not been made available, or has only been made available on request—these additional powers can be taken. We are told under paragraph (5) of the order that the seal should be authenticated by the signature of any two members of the council of management or the signature of any one member of the council of management with the signature of the administrative director of the federation. We are not told what is to be the qualification for membership of the international federation, or what is to be the disqualification for membership of the international federation. We are not told how the council of management is created or is to be renewed, or if it is to be perpetual. We are not told what is the relationship between the council of management and the members as regards the exercise of such powers as the body may have or be found to have if it ever comes to be hereafter determined. We do not know the relationship of the administrative director to the council of management or to the members. We do not know what powers he has or what his duties are to be; we do not know the position when he is found to have exceeded his powers, or when he may be found to lack such power as one might think that an administrative director should have. We are not told who appoints him.
It seems to me that this very valuable legal quality of corporate status is to be conferred by the Minister's order, after consultation with the Minister for Industry and Commerce on a body which seems to be utterly unrestricted in their performance, save by such restrictions as are to be found in the explicit sections of the Act under which the order is made—the International Health Bodies (Corporate Status) Act, 1971.
I do not find this to be a satisfactory way of proceeding. I see very little virtue in having a draft order first, rather than the more usual order, which would then be subject to annulment, particularly as we do not have before us the kind of information which should be widely circulated in the Houses of the Oireachtas and be there open for consideration by those Members who might have a view as to what is a healthy relationship between the members of a body and the members of the council of management, and who might even have experience of this or have a view as to the restrictions that ought to be imposed on the council of management in any worthwhile constitution. They might have the view that, this being a draft order, presumably it would be open to the Oireachtas to consider the position of the administrative director of the federation.
Other Senators joined with me in being unhappy about the International Health Bodies (Corporate Status) Act, 1971, when it was being enacted. We thought that overmuch confidence was being placed in the respectability of the persons who originate in these bodies. I find that this policy and thought continue to permeate the order which is being made. I wish to join, without pressing any further, with Senator Dooge in the criticism he has made, although I should be slow to criticise the Minister who has introduced this order for our consideration.
I do not wish to go into great detail on this because the merits or demerits of the Act itself were discussed earlier on this year. There are one or two points that arise on this. Who will disseminate the funds that this international body will get from the contributions of the various countries that have joined this federation? What say will we have in this? What say will we have if a situation arises where the founders of this international body go into the red? Would we be in any way liable for more than our share of the funding of this international federation?
Senator FitzGerald also made the point as to how we would appoint representatives on this body? No mention of that has been made. There is very little else to be said about this because it got a very fair and lengthy study earlier this year when the Act went through this House. It would be wasting the time of the House if we went into any detail about the order which is now laid before us.
I should like to support the point made by Senator Dooge in asking that any order or regulation or any papers that are to be laid in the Library should be laid in sufficient number and should be available to every Member of both Houses at the same time. Of course, the blame cannot be laid directly on the Minister for this. It should not be his particular function, even though he may be responsible for this being done. I have nothing further to add regarding this order at the moment. I do not think it would help to go into any greater detail.
First of all, I am afraid I underestimated the number of people who would want to look at the constitution of the body. I am sorry for that. I should not have thought so many people would want to look at it.
I deprecate the slight air of suspicion that hangs over this body, for which there is no evidence whatever. This is an international body, not making money or profits, and it consists of a great number of respectable organisations. The subscription fee varies from £20 at the minimum up to £160 for a voluntary health insurance society which has an annual subscription of £10 million. The funds of the auditors will not be involved if this society should get into financial difficulties. I shall see the accounts every year under the terms of the Act. I can issue a revoking order in a manner which is known to the Members of the House, if ever it appeared that it would be undesirable for this body to continue to have corporate status in this country.
Lastly, there are a great many international voluntary organisations that do not prescribe all the rules and regulations suggested by Senator Alexis FitzGerald simply because they are deliberative bodies. Therefore, the kind of situations that might arise which would get them into difficulties because they had not made regulations in relation to administration control, finance and so forth, are not likely to arise. I am sorry that an insufficient number of copies was placed in the Library and I am glad that otherwise the House accepts this resolution.
Does the Minister realise that no copies were left until requested?
In actual fact, sample copies of the constitution were circulated to Members of the Seanad some time after the passage of the Act or during the passage of the Act. I assumed that they would have a sufficient idea of what this body was like from that. Some sample copies of the constitution were issued to a number of people.
The position is that on the making of the order no copies of the constitution were available in the Library until at the request of the House copies were provided.
I thought the sample constitution that was issued previously would have been sufficient. I am sorry.
Question put and agreed to.