Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 26 Jan 1972

Vol. 72 No. 4

Appropriation Act, 1971: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That Seanad Éireann notes the supply services and purposes to which sums have been appropriated in the Appropriation Act, 1971.
—(Tomás Ó Maoláin).

When the Minister for Justice at the Council of Europe referred to the situation in the north-eastern part of our country, he described British policy there as stupid. He shocked the British delegation who were present at that Council meeting and I note in today's newspapers that he annoyed the Unionist gentlemen at Stormont very much at yesterday's sitting. However, I think that whether he shocked the British delegation and annoyed Stormont, he expressed the view held by the vast majority of Irish people, that is, that the policy pursued by Her Majesty's Government in the north-eastern corner of this country is not alone stupid but insane and calculated to lead to a perpetuation of the bitterness and misunderstanding that has bedevilled relations between our two countries for centuries.

It is well that we should realise, and it is no harm that the British Government should also realise, that as a consequence of the developments in the six north-eastern counties there has been a growing change in opinion among the people in this part of Ireland. It is no harm to recall that in 1921 the Republican Government took a decision that they would secure the reunification of Ireland by peaceful and by negotiated means. They thereby set their faces definitely and resolutely against the use of force to coerce any section of the people in the north-eastern counties into the Irish Republic.

The Cabinet which took that decision and which represented the majority of the people of Ireland and the fighting force of the Irish Republican Army and Cumann na mBan included in its members Eamon de Valera, Michael Collins, Austin Stack, Cathal Brugha and Liam Cosgrave. Nobody could accuse any of those of having any less desire for the freedom of their country than any of the young men who are today using force in the vain hope of achieving something which they say we have failed to achieve by peaceful and by negotiated means.

In 1926, when the Fianna Fáil organisation was founded, it followed that dictum of the Republican Government and resolutely set its face against the use of force as a means to reunite the people of this country. It has pursued that policy resolutely for 45 years. That policy has been the national policy of every political party in this part of Ireland, up to now anyhow. Fine Gael, Labour and Fianna Fáil have set their faces resolutely against the use of force as the means of settling this problem.

In 1937, when the Government at that time had negotiated the Treaty practically out of existence and had been in the position to submit a Constitution for ratification to the Irish people and the Irish people had enacted that Constitution, we became except for the name a republic. There was however one snag apart from partition. The snag was the possession of the Treaty ports and air facilities retained by the British since 1921. One year later in 1938, when the Government negotiated again with the British Conservative Government of Mr. Neville Chamberlain, an agreement was signed which settled all outstanding problems between the two countries and returned to Irish custody ports and harbours which were forfeit under the Treaty. The field was then clear for a concentration on the one remaining problem and that was the reunification of the national territory.

Again it must be remembered that force to achieve this object was ruled out by the Government and by all political parties. Why was it ruled out? It was ruled out from a common-sense point of view first, because it would not achieve the objective against the might that Britain could bring against us. Secondly it was ruled out because in the event of its success, even assuming one could defeat the British forces massed up there and liquidate the British military might in the North, it would have required an army of occupation for a couple of hundred years because it would have become territory occupied against the will of a vast section of the population in those counties. Therefore there was no possibility, no sense, no reason, for adopting that type of method for securing it.

The third and most sensible reason was that we could not see why, if every problem is subject to negotiation and arbitration and if there was goodwill on the part of the British Government, this problem could not be settled also in due time with friendly feelings and with the consent of the people who could not see eye to eye with us at that time. It was hoped that in due course of events, by conducting ourselves so well here, by showing an example of tolerance, fair play, magnanimity and by giving justice to all citizens, we would convince the people up there who feared reunion that they had nothing to fear: in due time when the point came to issue they would negotiate on the basis of a good bargain. That was the hope of everybody in this part of Ireland.

Unfortunately things have not worked out that way. During all that period and even during the 1939-1945 Second World War, it must be said there was tremendous good feeling here for the British, the English, Scottish and Welsh. I would go so far as to say that the majority of opinion in this part of Ireland favoured the Allied cause, favoured the British cause. I would go so far as to say that the admiration for the stoicism and heroism of the people of London, Coventry, Manchester, Glasgow and Liverpool who stood up to the aerial blitz knew no bounds. I do not think there was anybody in this country who entertained any feelings of hatred for what was described as our ancient enemy.

Gradually the feeling began to grow here, as we hoped it was growing in England, that we were just two offshore islands of Europe. We had to live together. We were side by side. We were our best trading customers, both of us. We had much in common. Above all we had a system of democracy which was common to both. We thought and hoped that, as we had dissipated the ancient dislike and distrust for the British and everything British here, the same thing was happening there. And so it was with the ordinary people but apparently not so with their Government.

The unfortunate thing that must be said now—it is no harm that the British Government would know it— is that from feelings of genuine admiration, respect and even liking among a large section of our people here there has been a gradual change because of events in the North, because of what we have seen on television and read in the Press, because of the Compton Report, because of what we know has been happening in Long Kesh, on the Maidstone and in Crumlin Road. Many people down here have had experience of what it was like when we had Black and Tans running riot in this part of the country and they are inclined to give credit to many of the stories emanating from those prison camps. Because of all that, people down here are beginning to see and to feel that the British are refusing to listen to anybody who has a reasonable proposition to make. They are not listening to the head of the Irish Government. They are doing nothing but just burying their heads in the sand and are not caring where this country is going or what is to be the conclusion of the situation in the North. As a consequence, the ordinary man and woman in the streets here are beginning to change their views about Britain.

It is an unfortunate and sad thing to have to say, but from a popularity point of view now among the nations of Europe, if this continues much longer, with the British Government refusing to do business, I have a strong feeling it will not be long before the name of Britain will be at the very bottom of the list in popularity among all the nations of Europe. This is something which is not to be wished for, desired or looked forward to with any great glee or enthusiasm.

There are young men who believe that by the actions they have taken they can secure the independence of the whole nation by apparently driving the British out of the Six Counties. There are people who believe that will be effective in convincing the one million people who do not agree with it that it is in their best interests to agree. We do not agree. Nobody down here agrees. No political party agrees with that philosophy. We feel that it is a mistaken idea. We cannot fail to understand however the motives which may inspire many of these young men who are doing these things.

It is too bad and too sad that, when the civil rights movement was beginning to gain ground and beginning to gain strength, the slackness and slowness of the Stormont Government gave encouragement to extremist organisations to gather strength. It is my belief that a strong civil rights movement which was making such progress in the North, in the streets of Belfast and Derry, a civil rights movement backed by a well-organised civil disobedience campaign, could have achieved far more than will ever be achieved by the campaign which is now in progress in some of the counties of the North.

I am prompted today particularly to remember and recall this because this is India Independence Day, this is Republic Day in India. On this day they celebrate their triumph from chains of British occupation. To anyone who has kept in touch with the gradual breakup of the British Empire and has read the story, there is nothing more inspiring than how the Indian people, starting off, one might say, with the massacre at Amritsar back in 1917, gained their independence. For 30 years they took it on the chin in the streets, lay down on their backs, took the kicks and the sticks and the batons of the British, and used no guns, refused to fight back but with civil disobedience were in the end able to conquer.

If the campaign in the North had gathered strength and if they had taken inspiration from the great triumph of Mahatma Gandhi and Nehru, things would have reached a climax in favour of a united Ireland long before now. There is also the extraordinary parallel in that there was another great patriotic Indian, Subba Bose, who like some of the young men here today was impatient with the older men or the slower men or the more conservative men who believed in the ballot box rather than the bullet. He took advantage of the coming war to raise an Indian Republican Army. He was a patriot, a great Indian scholar and gentleman, but he got impatient. He thought when the Japanese were all-conquering through South-East Asia that this was the chance, and he recruited young men to join the Indian Republican Army and to co-operate with the Japanese in seizing India and securing their independence. But the Indians under Gandhi and Nehru would have none of it. They persisted in their determination to use non-violence as a method of achieving their objective and they scored a tremendous victory.

I should like some of the young men today to remember that and to realise that there are other ways besides the way in which they are operating. There are other ways in which justice can be secured, victory ensured and independence achieved besides using the bullets and the bomb and the fires.

The radio today carried an interview with the chief whip of the SDLP. I was astonished at some of his comments and at his references to the Taoiseach. One would imagine listening to him that the head of the Irish Government had no right to take any steps or to make any suggestions to secure the national territory and the reunion of the national territory. I do not want to say any more about it except to express my astonishment that a man occupying such a critical position at the present moment should use such language. I hope that it does not indicate a return to the ghetto mentality of some of the politicians in the North from 1922 onwards. I hope he certainly does not speak for the remainder of his party or for the Nationalist Opposition in the North. If he does and if those are the sentiments of those who are mobilised up there now on a political basis, then God help us if that is the best leadership they can give to the long-suffering people in the North.

The book which was published here the other day, of which I presume all Deputies and Senators have got a copy, containing speeches on the subject made by the Taoiseach since 1969, is one worthy of study not alone by our people here but by everybody taking part in any campaign North or South with this object in view. There appears to be an appalling amount of ignorance, one example of which appeared in The Irish Times today. A gentleman signing himself “Pro-Quidnunc” seemed to think that no Irish politician had made any reference to Partition or to the Border before 1969. Whoever this “Pro-Quidnunc” is, and if this is an indication of the standard of knowledge and ability which is required by The Irish Times, I am afraid its circulation will not continue to make the progress which it claims it has been making in the past few years. Such appalling ignorance has never been shown in any newspaper to my knowledge and I hope he will correct it before we have occasion to make long speeches giving him the history of all the speeches that were made by all the parties here for all the years that followed 1921.

I think there is no doubt, given goodwill and given a fair climate, that progress can be made. The fact that the leader of the British Opposition, Mr. Harold Wilson, is as convinced as we are that a military solution is not the solution for this problem indicates that in Britain the second largest party, the party which could at any time form the next Government, is strongly in favour of a united Ireland. If Mr. Heath grasps the opportunity now afforded by the proposition made by Mr. Wilson for inter-party talks at least it is a beginning; at least people will have got around the table and will have thrown out suggestions, bared one another's minds on this thorny subject. All men of goodwill, I take it, will hope that something good will come of Mr. Wilson's initiative in this and that it will be followed by some concrete action by the British Prime Minister on behalf of the Government in Britain with whom every Irishman, irrespective of class, party or creed, would like our country to have good relations. As I say, we are neighbours' children and it is unnatural for us to be in a perpetual state of nagging, fighting and semi-hostility to one another.

We should do everything we can, every one of us, to ensure that all men of goodwill, irrespective of their political opinions or parties, will be given every encouragement in whatever move they make to try to ease the situation and to bring together those people whose influence can bring peace and eventual moves towards uniting this country again in a way in which all its citizens, irrespective of creed, class or present political affiliation, will feel that it is their country, that they have as much right to it as anybody else and that their traditions as well as the traditions of those others who claim Gaelic forebears will be equally respected.

Having said so much, I might add that I was astonished also at Mr. Devlin's statement on the EEC. I hope it does not represent, as I say, the opinions of his party and the opinions of the people he represents. That is all I will say, but any person who takes the line he chose on the EEC is certainly liable to cause quite an amount of misunderstanding, not alone here but amongst his own people in the North.

On that subject of the EEC, I notice that the Congress of Trade Unions are having a conference to decide what way they will advise their affiliated unions to vote in the referendum. It was very encouraging to see that at least one union with a large membership, the union founded by Jim Larkin, the Workers' Union of Ireland, have taken a decision in favour of entry into Europe. It is only what one would expect, because if the union followed the philosophy of Big Jim, who was an internationalist in the best sense of the word, they would realise that in making a return to Europe we are taking our rightful place as a sovereign State amongst the nations of this Continent and have no inferiority complex about doing it.

I sincerely hope that the other and larger union, who have been making a lot of noises, will think twice before they advise their members to throw away the opportunity which is now being given to enter Europe and to begin a new era in this country.

Before the vote I would wish that some members of the Irish Transport and General Workers' Union who are well acquainted with the subject would remind the delegates, in view of statements made by some of their leading officers recently, of the period in this country's history, about 40 years ago, when our farmers had to sustain an economic attack by Britain for six long years and when our produce was subject to economic sanctions in every port throughout Great Britain, when we could not sell our cattle at any sort of a price except after paying penal taxes, when the Government in order to try to ease the situation bought cattle and gave away the beef as free beef, and when a subsidy was paid to farmers to kill the calves because the cattle population was getting so big we could not deal with it. Why was that? It was because we had one solid, steady market, not far from our doors, which imposed penal tariffs on our produce and we tried everywhere else and could not do business. Possibly if we had given away the cattle for nothing at that time other countries in Europe would have taken them, but nobody would give us a deal; nobody would give us a reasonable price; nobody wanted our market; nobody gave a damn, in other words.

Before they vote I hope that somebody will remind the delegates of what it means now that Britain has gone into the Common Market, now that we are going to be in isolation if we do not go in, that all this talk of association and this talk about special privileges is all "bunk". The concrete, terrible fact is that we would be a little pinhead out here in the Atlantic, isolated from everybody and with very little goodwill from anybody. If these delegates think that by making noise and by waving the big stick and by threatening that they can influence any other Government in the world, then they had better think again, because it is quite obvious that they cannot.

I feel that it is only right and proper, since this is the first opportunity I have had anyhow, to congratulate the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dr. Hillery, on the success of the negotiations which he conducted on our behalf. It is admitted now that he was a great negotiator, that he got a good deal out of the business and that we were well served by his visits to Brussels. I only hope that the Irish Congress of Trade Unions before they vote will realise that one of the benefits which will be conferred by membership of the European Economic Community is a higher standard of living for the workers. We are reaching it here by slow stages; it will take a long time. In Europe—if the workers' delegates do not believe me then they can believe the oracles of Irish television and the BBC who tell them the same thing, and they may read it also in the newspapers—the standard of workers in the EEC countries is far ahead of anything that might have been expected in the normal progression towards higher living standards. I hope that tomorrow they will say "Yes" and advise their members to vote "Yes".

The Transport Workers' Union have been waving the big stick at unemployment. Their general secretary stated that the Government would have to do this, that and the other and if they did not, everybody would be on short time and this would stop incentive bonuses in industry, and a lot of similar tommyrot. When the executive officer of a great trade union talks that sort of poppycock and expects to convey any meaning, it is a poor lookout for the judgment of the union concerned, if they pursue the campaign regarding unemployment which they have promised to do.

A union such as this with 150,000 members, instead of mouthing about unemployment and redundancies, which are inevitable in the present climate, should get down to organising their members to support the products of the factories in which their husbands, brothers and sons work. Instead of bringing home foreign goods and material, they should bring home goods made in the Irish factories. I was assured when I raised this point before that there was a campaign conducted by the Congress of Trade Unions, but I saw no evidence of this. Now when there is an emergency is the time for a union such as the Transport Union to tell their members that if they wish to preserve employment, they can do the Sinn Féin job themselves by buying Irish goods which are as good as any coming from abroad. They should not expect the community to do everything. Instead of wasting their time threatening people, the union should urge their members, particularly their female members, to buy Irish. This also applies to the other unions.

It was stated on RTE last night that last year ladies fashions imports cost £15 million. Who the hell sends out £15 million to buy dresses and so on manufactured abroad except workers' families? There are not so many wealthy people in Ireland to spend £15 million so they cannot put it down to the petit bourgeois or multi-millionaires. If the families of the ordinary workers spend £15 million buying imported dresses, hats, kneeboots, and so on, they cannot blame anyone if their boot factories are on short time and if their clothing factories are closing down and if there is redundancy in many of the shops in which their sisters work. The buying power of 150,000 disciplined, organised members is of great importance, but the injection of money by 500,000 members, which the Congess of Trade Unions presume to speak for, would be a tremendous injection into the economy if they spent their money on home-produced goods.

There is a great variety of foreign-produced foods in the supermarkets, such as cheese and biscuits. Irish cheese, biscuits, tinned goods can be had and are as good and are cheaper. But because it is not considered fashionable or because psuedo-expert women writers in some of our newspapers blow up the foreign goods as being what the "quality" buy, people do not buy Irish.

The time has come for the trade unions to tell their members that, if they do not wish to see more people lining up at employment exchanges and more people trying to leave the country, they should do something about the industries which are already there and which are producing magnificent goods. They had better drop this inferiority complex which favours foreign fashions and foods and be satisfied that we can produce as good as, and better in most cases than anything which is imported. Last year we sent out of the country £38 million to pay for holidays in the sun.

£41 million.

Thank you, £41 million. I am corrected by the commanding officer of tourism in Dublin. If the workers who went on those holidays abroad would say to themselves: "My country is going through a crisis, and we must pull our socks up; we must do without something for a year or two to get the ship running on smooth water again and bring her into harbour." If every member of a trade union said: "I will play my part and do not expect the community to carry me on their backs," and every trade unionist's family decided to spend their holidays at home, they would see parts of their own country which they have never seen. Maybe they would miss the gorgeous bikiniclad beauties on the sands of Majorca.

The Senator has already earned plaudits that no one here will grudge him for this fine speech, and there is no need for him to introduce bikinis.

They will miss all that, but they are being asked to do something to help their country and if we can save £41 million for a year or two, surely it is not too much to expect that they will spend their holidays in Ireland. Let us hope the trade unions will help in this, particularly as I heard a man saying last night that an estimated 35,000 people would be leaving Ireland this summer for holidays in Europe and North Africa. Most of these people are members of trade unions.

While watching "7 Days" on RTE one night I was astonished, ashamed and maddened to see the programme being given over to a low, disgusting and disrespectful attack on the Archbishop of Dublin, Dr. John Charles McQuaid.

A Senator

Hear, hear.

It was the most unworthy performance that I have seen from both public representatives and private gentlemen well known in the business life of this city. It was a scandalous thing that the promoters of that programme allowed it to be so used when no reply was possible. It was utterly scandalous because of the falsity of the statements made by a public representative, a member of Dáil Éireann. I am loath to think that nothing can be done about it. There should at least have been an apology or some expression of regret from Telefís Éireann, the promoters of the programme, or from somebody in authority. This most worthy gentleman, a man who had occupied the highest position in his church in this archdiocese for over 30 years and who had done credit to himself, to his church and to this city, should not have been made the butt for a low, scurrilous, personal attack, the ventilation of a personal vendetta, through the taxpayers' subsidised station, Radio Telefís Éireann.

Having said that, I should like to compliment Telefís Éireann on their programme dealing with the summary of the Dáil Debates on the Treaty in 1921. It was a wonderful performance, a very satisfactory summary of what took place on that occasion and the selections from the speeches were excellent. A lot more of that type of programme could be done by Telefís Éireann. That could be one of its roles, to supplement the work in the schools that are unable to do it. Telefís Éireann would be performing a good service if they would take historical events of that nature and dramatise them in the excellent way in which they dramatised the debates on the Treaty.

One of the most stimulating and encouraging pieces of historical reporting that I have heard was over the BBC sound radio some weeks ago when they produced a documentary called the "Death of a Republic". It ran for an hour and a half and had an all-English cast. It told the story of the Republic which died in 1916 to 1923. It began with the Rising and ended with the Republican army's defeat in April, 1923. It was a fascinating story and true to life. There were mistakes here and there but, on the whole, they were very slight——

The affairs of Radio Telefís Éireann come under discussion under this motion but I am not at all sure that the Government holds any responsibility for the activities of the BBC.

Maybe we have a guilty conscience about the BBC, having received it for so long and paid nothing for it. It is time we gave them a bit of praise. The Government has responsibilities for Radio Telefís Éireann in this respect, that they are still continuing to show at odd moments some of these one-sided war films. I thought we had run out of all these great American, British and French victories but apparently not. I would suggest to Telefís Éireann, for God's sake, to let us see a German, Japanese or Italian victory now and again for a change.

Another point I should like to make is that the gentlemen described as students are to me a nauseating feature of this permissive society. They must be getting very poor training somewhere, either in their colleges or the universities. I do not know who to blame for it. But we should examine our consciences to find out whether the money we are spending is being spent to the best advantage, and whether the grants we are giving to some of these student societies should continue. I give as an example the conduct of the Union of Students in Ireland at Dundalk. They invited the Minister for Education to attend their annual conference. When he attended most of them walked out and refused to listen to what he had to say. That is no way to treat a guest in any house. They then made their declaration of a socialist Ireland. I suppose nobody could quarrel with that, but I do not see why the taxpayer should have to pay a grant to the Students' Union of Ireland if they are going to become a political party or an auxiliary to some other political party.

The most disgusting and reprehensible thing is the complete indifference to ordinary manners and courtesy in the student societies. Only last week we had the experience that a distinguished visitor, Lord Caradon, and the Leader of the Opposition in Dáil Éireann, were publicly insulted by the Literary and Historical Society in University College, Dublin.

I am sorry to interrupt the Senator, but the society the Senator has mentioned has dissociated itself from this insult which was perpetrated by the so-called republican club within the college.

Yes, I know that is the excuse. The excuse does not hold water, as Senator Kelly will realise if he will admit the truth because——

I am just as annoyed about the savagery as Senator Ó Maoláin, but I do not think the society which the Senator mentions is to blame.

All right. If there is a group of students here and their society invites a distinguished visitor like Lord Caradon and the Leader of the Opposition in Dáil Éireann surely if one or two blackguards in the audience decide to try to destroy the meeting the remainder of the students should not tolerate that behaviour and sit idly by in their seats and not take them by the back of the neck and sling them out. That is what happened in University College, Dublin. They all sat back and Pontius Pilate-like said: "We did not do it. We are sorry it happened," but not one of them touched these alleged republican club men.

There were some fistfights, in fact. Perhaps there were not enough, but there were some.

There were not enough. That is only one example. This has happened in many student societies, both in Trinity and National. The result is that I would strongly recommend to any public person or anybody with any self respect not to attend any of these student societies in future until they learn to conduct themselves, until he can get a guarantee that he will be listened to, and that he will be treated with respect.

I should like to take the opportunity to express the thanks of most people to the former Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Frank Aiken, on the culmination of one of the things to which he set his hand in the United Nations, namely, the admission of the People's Republic of China as a fully-fledged member of that organisation. The work he did at the United Nations in regard to that matter, the Treaty for the Prevention of the Spread of Nuclear Weapons and the Test Ban Treaty were works which redounded to the credit of our country and did us all honour. I should like to express—now that he is no longer Minister for Foreign Affairs—my own thanks and the country's thanks to him for the excellent work he performed.

I should also hope that when the Minister for Transport and Power, Deputy B. Lenihan, sets up the commission to inquire into why hotels raised their charges by 12 per cent last December, without consulting anybody about it, he will pursue the subject so that we may find out why this mortal blow was delivered to an already overpriced tourist system here. I hope he will be successful in dealing with any further offences in that direction.

Many of the matters on which the Leader of the House has spoken are matters on which we could all talk. I would certainly agree with him on a number of matters he raised. Earlier in his speech he struck a peaceful and highly patriotic note with regard to our problems in connection with the unity of Ireland and I find myself entirely in accord with those sentiments.

In addressing myself here today to that theme, and on its related themes of public order here, subversion and the fate of our free institutions, I do so with some diffidence. Although I do so with some diffidence I hope the House will find me speaking freely and not by grace of a standing order of one of the illegal armies whereby they choose not to use their power in this part of Ireland to prevent us exercising the freedom the people have given us to speak here. I hope I will be found to be speaking frankly and freely and expressing what I think is the situation as I see it. I derive some encouragement from the thought that in doing so there are not any Christian mobs in the gospels. The only mobs in the gospels are moving against Christ and if there is any of that type of force mustered against the free expression of opinion we should stand up to it in a very deliberate way.

It is impossible to dissociate the two questions of order in the Republic and the problem in Northern Ireland. With regard to order in the Republic the question of force, and its employment, arises. It is impossible to argue that force cannot, in certain circumstances, be used. The State cannot exist without the possession of force, without it being mustered and organised for its proper lawful use. In that sense—I am certainly not a pacifist—I think all the resources involved in the possession of force must be available and kept constantly under consideration and in a state of preparedness for the protection of society and of those who suffer most if society disintegrates or weakens. In some degree it is unfortunate that, because internment in Northern Ireland has been used in a sectarian and in a sectional way and because it has been first alleged, and then truly established, that there was ill-treatment of interned people, we should take up a public position here with regard to internment that in all circumstances this is anathema.

I have noticed that the Taoiseach has, from time to time, reserved himself well with regard to this matter but I do not think it should be left to the Taoiseach alone to reserve himself on it. If the civilisation which the Government stand to guard is under threat then ultimately it may be a resource of civilisation to intern people who threaten it. Even in regard to the Northern situation it seems to me that it does not lie in the mouths of the IRA and those who are mustering the force there to criticise, all the time, even the internment of their followers and their members. It does not lie with them to claim rights when they repudiate the legal system which confers the rights. Intra arma silent leges is an old legal tag and if the claim of those who are exercising force either licitly or illicitly, according to the view you take on Northern Ireland, is correct that a state of war exists then if a state of war exists the laws are suspended. It is a type of whining to be complaining because a force greater than the force that is being used on one side is being used against them. I feel it is necessary, if we are to talk about realities as they exist and speak in public about the things the people say and think in private, that this must be said by someone.

It is impossible, obviously, to consider the question of Northern Ireland without especially considering the lawfulness of the utilisation of force in the Republic and in the North. Are we entitled to use force? Theoretically, this State is entitled to use force but, as the Leader of the House has pointed out, in the early days of this State it was resolved by the Cabinet that force would not be used to solve this problem. At no general election since that date has that decision been repudiated. At all general elections since that date that decision has been overwhelmingly approved. Although there is a problem that we must honestly look at, I cannot see how the leaders of the IRA are entitled to use the force which they use.

In considering this question we have to strike something like a balance sheet, in terms of potential assets and potential liabilities. We cannot—and I think few people do so although I think we are inclined to gloss over it— ignore the human suffering which results from the use of force. The present cost is: paraplegia, loss of limbs, permanent cerebral damage, loss of sight. In one explosion 19 innocent girls were permanently physically or mentally maimed. In another explosion two babies were so injured—they were both dead—that the doctor did not know if there were two or three and could not pronounce on their sex.

There are people now living who have already experienced the use of force in Northern Ireland and who will live with the injuries for the rest of their days. We do not need a Goya or a Picasso to remind us of the horrors of war. We should remind ourselves of the war in which we involve ourselves in so far as we do not condemn it. At least those who are active in it take some of the consequences of it, but the supporters in the rear share responsibility for it. There is the potential asset of unity. Unity of what kind? Imposed conquest is that type of unity. It is not moral unity. It is the removal of some line on a map. There is the risk of failure of this enterprise and it cannot be ignored. If it were to be adopted nationally what would be the effect of that failure on our national self-confidence?

We must ask ourselves what would be the position if the unity which is sought by the means which are adopted were established? It would be a different kind of unity according to the means which are used to adopt it. These are the means which the leader of the House recommended and which have been recommended by the leaders of his party and all the other parties in government since the foundation of this State, and which my own party recommend today. It is a unity sought patiently by peaceful means.

It is worthwhile because it is a moral unity and because the people would at last have come together for a united purpose and seek to identify what it is they are agreed upon and what they can elevate to be the focus of their loyalties. If the means of conquest though are adopted, does anyone think that the gun will then be out of Irish politics? Does anyone think that the gun, if it establishes unity, is going to end with the abolition of the Border? After all, we are talking about people, and in talking about people I hope that we would all talk about people in general and not pass judgments on individuals who take up their particular positions in regard to all sorts of influences upon them.

We are talking about people who have an emotional or an intellectual weakness which has appeared frequently in the history of religions— this is a kind of religion; of thinking that they have a special message from the Almighty. In the Christian religion there were Gnostic heretics who thought the Gospel had a special message for them. They knew how the testament was to be interpreted and how they should think. They were an élite. The people who were not of the élite were seen not to qualify as Christians, to the same extent as the Gnostics. These people have this self-assurance. I am afraid it requires us to examine our own position as we must have a confidence equal to theirs in resisting their claims.

By their conduct, some of these people are creating the very situation that some people are alleging represents a defective situation in the Republic. They talk about the failures of government, and about the failure to make proper progress. They talk about the low standard of living of people here, and by their own exertions and their own conduct they are making it difficult for the Government to improve these standards. By the constant art of belittlement, they are making it difficult for people to have confidence in their own achievement. In relation to that, much literary attention was given to 1916. Because of its romantic nature and because of the quality of the individuals who were engaged in that enterprise more attention is being given to the movement preceding the establishment of the State.

More credit is given to them for their exertions than has been given to those who patiently, night after night, have been working without glory or attention, in building up what is the historic achievement of this State. It is not merely that it has survived; this itself is a remarkable fact about it. If you go back to 1918, please tell me how many countries that reached statehood at that time or within those years still survive independent, as we do? It did not just all happen. Events do not occur. They are due to decisions of men. We have much in our secular history that we have a right to be proud of. However, we have never succeeded in eliminating this sense of the State being in some way illegitimate, and in some way not entitled to the full loyalty of all Irishmen. This House, the other House and the Government should be thinking about how we present the picture of our national progress imaginatively, so as to make good this apparent defect in the title deeds of the State.

I spoke about the cost of some of it. Can anyone see the leaders of 1916 tarring and feathering people? How does that honour us? How does it honour the people who are tarred and feathered? How does it respect their dignity? What does it do to those who tar and feather them, or pour lead over them? Does anyone see the leaders of 1916 putting masks on? They did not put masks on when they went out. They did not lend their names to murder. I hesitate to use the word "murder" for the special reason that I hesitate to pass judgment on persons, but what else was it but murder to kill a witness before a court case? On any theory that has so far been expressed on behalf of any organisation other than those who do not pretend to have respect for life—incidentally, this murder lends an argument to those who introduced internment—one of the reasons offered for it, although that argument did not previously carry a great deal of conviction to me, was that they could not get witnesses to testify in court. Here we have court proceedings coming up and the man is killed.

One of the costs of it is the effect on the children, the children of the entire island of Ireland. Have we not to face a further price to be paid in future years by the nailbombers of the future who are now getting well trained? I am not of a war party. Therefore, I do not feel that I should abstain from using any language which goes against the war party. I think we have to remind ourselves that words are important. Words bear fruit in deeds. Language can be a form of aggression. Somebody called it "the verbal barbed wire". There has been a fair amount of verbal barbed wire erected in the last three years. In relation to that barbed wire we all have to ask ourselves to what extent have we used language which has borne fruit in deeds? To what extent have our words led to detentions, killings and maimings. To what extent can we now use language to bring forth peace in the future?

There is one argument offered with regard to the IRA which I come across in private conversation and I should like the opinion of the House on it. It is offered by people who half support them. I am talking of people who are not members of the body. It is that the use of force has brought the British to the conference table. I think it would be dishonest not to look at that argument to see what merit it might have.

First of all, whose force? One of the arguments used in the defence of the use of force by the Nationalist population is that they did not use it first. From that theory it is Orange force that has brought the British to the conference table. What are we getting from the conference table that is being made easier by the use of force? Is it not the existence of liberal opinion in England as a political factor, not giving any more credit to people than that? Is it not the apprehension of the existence of moderate opinion in the two parts of Ireland that makes possible any conference? You might as well say: "If he had not gone on that fearful batter and had not stayed on it for weeks, he never would have had the boils that brought the surgeon to lance them." The use of force represents the boil. It is the sign of the ill-health but the ill-health lies deeper. The ill-health can only be cured by everybody in these islands.

I am not a 1916 man except in the sense which is unimportant, that I was born in 1916, my greatest national achievement. I think you have honestly to look at the question as to what is it that distinguishes, if there is anything that distinguishes, the position of those who claim to use force now, either indigenously in the North or supported from here, and those who used force then.

One other point I should like to make is if this is the parallel which justifies the use of force now, it is an argument against the use of force in 1916, if it has left us with this residue of violence and this possible argument. However, I do not think so. I think it is possible to distinguish the position in quite an important way, at least as I see it. First of all, the 1916 leaders were prepared to endure. They were not concerned with making others suffer. Secondly, they were found to be, by subsequent elections, expressing what was the will of the people with regard to it. I am not certain that any of these arguments would convince me if I were against 1916. If you are against 1916 you are against this anyhow, so that the problem is only for those who are in favour of 1916 to make the necessary distinction. The outstanding difference is that we established a State. That State cannot exist except on the basis of a proper authority coming from the people to the people who are given it. That authority must be on the basis that all the guns are locked up except the guns under the control of the Government of the country. If this is not so then it is anarchy, the law of the jungle and the biggest man's army wins. If there are now two IRAs why not three or four? Why do we all not have one? What is there to prevent anybody from deciding he wants his army? Well, of course, the thing is to accept the authority of people. If you do not accept that force being used here in support of any army is unlawful then you accept anarchy and all that is involved in anarchy.

I should like to refer to one more matter before I deal with what I desire mainly to deal with. I want to deal with this question of the behaviour of the British Army. It is right to be sensible with regard to the behaviour of the British Army. It is impossible to justify the conduct of any army engaged in warfare if you see what an army does as we, through television cameras, see what the British Army do. If you only see the ugly things they do, if this is all the television camera is focused on, then you have a false picture without considering what they were originally sent in to do, and without gravely considering what would be the position if they were withdrawn.

There was a young man on television on Saturday night who mentioned certain characters, one of whom is a Member of this House and said that he had great respect for them, which is generally a preface to tearing people apart. This man said these people knew nothing at all about the position in the North. This young man was a journalist, won an award for being a reporter of the situation in the North and seemed to think it was only possible to understand what is going on if you are in a high state of excitement with regard to it. In fact, if you are in the middle of a fracas you have a far less chance of understanding what is going on than if you are able to coolly look at it. It is no discredit to be able to coolly look at things. The people who have an easy tendency to yield to their emotions get a curious kind of satisfaction from time to time by thinking: "Well, I must be jolly good, I feel so patriotic about this." If they did not feel so well about it they would be making much better judgments of it, which is what they ought to do in the interests of the common people of Ireland. They should remember there are others who feel otherwise—I am thinking of those who are on the other side of the battle.

Judging the British Army's behaviour in Northern Ireland it does not look very good. Obviously any human being who is in a position to try and change the situation should do so. It is much more stupid than criminal. It is a very silly thing indeed when seven people escape to go beating up half the countryside and turning seventy times seven against them. This is simply more stupid than criminal. But armies tend to be stupid. One historian says that European civilisation was saved by the tradition of European countries putting the stupid son into the army. If they put the intelligent one in the army the whole of Europe would long since have been destroyed. I do not want to pursue that too far, because it might reflect on the quality of personnel that is directing armies in any part of Ireland.

Senator Ó Maoláin has spoken generously of our neighbour's children. It is right that he should. I should like to speak equally generously. It has not all been simply brutality by the British treatment of Ireland. We have got things as well as having things taken from us. I hope the Leader of the House will allow me to say that we have got a very good legal system from the British. The Parliamentary Secretary will allow me say we have, in fact, got a highly skilled system of administration from the British.

And the Revenue Commissioners.

We got the Revenue Commissioners too and the trade unions, I agree.

They could have kept them.

The independence movement owes much more to the strength of the liberal view in Britain than has been sufficiently acknowledged. We tend to judge the British Army on what are very high British standards. What other country would have had a Compton Report, which would find there was ill-treat-ment? I remember the treatment that the Germans in this century, less than three decades ago, meted out to a village in Czechoslovakia—Lidice. They had trouble, but what did they do? They killed 2,500 people, exterminated the village in its entirety and they secured a degree of compliance from the neighbourhood as a result of this decision which they would not have got if they had knocked open a few doors and had television cameras on them.

Did you ever hear of Hiroshima?

Are you one who would ever take from the power of the President of the United States of America? I share with you the horror of Hiroshima. I am merely concerned here to say that we should focus ourselves correctly in our judgment of the British Army. We should see it in proper perspective. After all, in 1956 the Russians were in Hungary; in 1968 the Russians invaded Czechoslovakia. A great and happy silence reigns in both countries ever since. There are no Northern troubles there.

I should like to say with regard to Northern Ireland that, as I see it, the situation there, truly analysed, is that of a minority in a majority situation. It is cohesive, suspicious, motivated by fear and inward-looking, as all minorities are. Taking a view of Ireland as a whole, this minority has the power of governing a State with another minority likewise motivated by fear and suspicion set against it, a minority, too, whose ethos and political tradition challenges the legitimacy of the State of Northern Ireland and is, at least, easily suspected of disloyalty. This situation of the two minorities together is what gives Northern Ireland its special characteristic. Minorities largely, if not exclusively, have different racial origins, different historical experiences, different religious allegiances and apparently, if not really, different interests. Because they are minorities in each case the resulting loyalties are intensely felt and are of a commanding nature. The differences between them are so significant that they separate members of the same economic classes and the situation utterly defies Marxist analysis. The situation is exacerbated because both minorities look to two outside powers for support and sustenance. In one case they look to a great power, Great Britain, and in the other case to the Republic of Ireland, a state which embodies the realisation, inadequate and incomplete though it be felt to be, of the age-old desire of the Irish for separation from Britain and for independence.

It is not surprising that in that situation there have been in Northern Ireland those who have seen the opportunity for gain. It is an open question as to whether this has amounted to oppression constituting injustice of a grave character. My judgment here could be wrong, but where in the world are there not sweet rackets when the boys are kept in line, and this is a situation in which it was easy to keep the boys in line, and I am quoting A1 Capone who knew what happened when you do not keep the boys in line: you go to jail.

I share a great deal of the pessimism which has been expressed here in this debate by Senator John Kelly, and responded to by the Leader of the House, as to the dangers to the survival of free parliamentary institutions in the Republic. I think this is one of the costs of what is now happening in the North, one of the dangers that may result. We have now a particular historical situation. I think everybody in the House has agreed that we cannot do very much about the Plantation of Ulster. I do not think it does us much good to discover what Galloper Smith did either; he is with his Judge. I do not think it is any good for us to disregard the fact that for 50 years there has been a State in Northern Ireland and that a situation has resulted which represents the culmination of the events of all that government. What we have got to realise is that out of this history has come a situation which is breeding each day human hate, loss of life and injury.

Fifty years ago it may well be that there was a British interest involved in maintaining an enclave in Northern Ireland and I think events subsequently proved this to be so. Certainly right up to 1938 there was a British interest involved in maintaining ports in what is now the Republic. It is reasonable to think that the decision to give these ports back in 1938 was at least affected by the fact that the British had the Six Counties of Northern Ireland. It is arguable that the conditions have so changed that this kind of interest has now gone.

What I should like to address myself to now is the nature of the present British interest in Northern Ireland and, indeed, in the Republic. I cannot but think that men of the high intelligence of the British Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition, to mention only two of many responsible leaders in Britain, have not directed their minds to the nature of that interest. Perhaps we should here help them as they direct their minds to it by referring to some of the considerations that we think should inform them.

The nature of this interest is, I think, capable of being summarised as at once to mitigate a danger and to maximise an advantage. First of all, there is the Irish diaspora—Irish emigration. All over the world there are people of our kith and kin; all over there are Irish people whose feelings are involved in our fate and in the experiences of this island. All over the world there are therefore people who are capable of being exploited by politicians on the rise, selfishly concerned to pursue their own interests, much as other politicians can be, and with feelings capable of being exploited, and no doubt being exploited, by the open enemies of Britain. Anything that brings peace here serves British interest by cutting off that source of attack on Britain.

There is, secondly, the durability of our free institutions over which, it is felt by some of us, there is now cast something of a shadow. I wonder if the British Government, though, has measured the strength and assessed well enough the reality of this stress? It must be a British interest not to have on its western flank a European Cuba, an old neighbour, an old civilisation which could abandon itself to either of the barbarisms of Irish Nazism or of Communism. The democracy of Ireland may have had a short life and have survived many dangers and properly be subject to much criticism. But nobody could criticise the quality of its international performance, its faithfulness to its word, its interest in public order internationally, its desire to be a host and to act in a generous way with regard to international movements.

The events of the last few years have disclosed some weaknesses, some gaps, some cracks which become very much greater and could irretrievably widen. The British Prime Minister must know well how easy it is to destroy a building to whose erection much time and dedication has gone. He should reflect how much more difficult it is going to be to reconstruct it if destroyed, how dubious the nature of the style of the reconstruction. That is a second interest, to maintain free institutions here.

Then there are the Irish in Britain and the British in Ireland, their fate, their future, their hopes. They represent a British as well as an Irish interest. I know that the geographical expression "the British Isles" irritates us all from time to time, but we cannot deny the intertwining of our history. It would be impossible to write the history of Ireland without knowing the history of not merely England, but also Scotland and Wales—of Britain. It would be a very bad history of Britain that did not include a history of Ireland and you would not be able even to get through the first chapter of the British Empire—or at least it would be a very curiously worded chapter— which did not contain some reference to the history of the Irish. It is a British interest as well as an Irish one to have good relations on this level for these people.

Finally, there is the economic interest which is very great and capable of more exact assessment. A prosperous Ireland will be good for Britain, too. A stagnant or declining Irish economy would be an impediment to British economic progress. On of the things which we have not done is to refer—and at an appropriate point later this evening I hope to do so—to the political mythology which has been part of our education. We should ask ourselves, with regard to many of the sayings that have been made by various people at different points in time, how relevant and helpful are these sayings now in 1972 for the free Irish State capable of making up its own mind in entirely different economic, political and social conditions to those which existed when these sayings were made.

"England's difficulty, Ireland's opportunity." How true for example is this extract from our political mythology? One of the excuses offered for our high rate of unemployment is England's difficulty. England's difficulty is not Ireland's opportunity. England's prosperity is Ireland's opportunity if we are taking our opportunities intelligently. Ireland's depression—and this would be the point for the British Prime Minister or his advisers—would be England's weakness.

We have, therefore, a mutual problem. It does not follow, in my view, that, because Britain must take the larger share for the creation of that problem, British action alone can solve it. We, too, have a role and how we play that role may circumscribe or condition Britain's influence. We cannot solve that problem on our own. We must look to Britain for much in putting right what is now disordered. We must look to Britain for an understanding, based on self-interest, to be particularised in a firm control of the adminstration of justice in Northern Ireland. We must look to them for a tactful administration of any residual power retained during the period of its retention. We must look to them for an imaginative constructive openness, and for a trust in their attitude as new institutions are created in Northern Ireland and new relationships made with the Republic which recognise our historic hopes and our unique position.

If this problem is not elevated by the individual decision of Mr. Heath into an appropriate and dignified priority, tragic events will surely ejaculate it there, whence it will make its sullen demands on all, not least on Britain's own social scene because Ireland could prove, without intelligent, energetic action on the part of the British Government, an exemplar for much more unhappy, damaging conduct in Britain.

What are we to do and what have we failed to do? We must not be afraid of our dead. They should have a voice in our affairs. We should remember them but they should not have an overall majority. We must not, in our policy have a regard for them which amounts to hagiology, to a treatment we would not mete out to the saints of our Church. We must honestly examine our own political creed and be prepared to purge from that creed all cant about force and about the heroism of dying. This does not say there is not an occasion for that type of bravery in life but it can be spoken about in such a way that the other type of bravery is forgotten.

We must not think that with the abolition of Partition and the establishment of unity we all will live happily ever after. It is not our last remaining problem. It will force us to enter into our catelogue a whole series of new problems which we will then have to try to solve. I include myself in saying that we have not energetically or sufficiently pursued a policy of peace. We have not been active in genuinely trying to bridge the differences between the two communities living in this island. We have hoped that something would turn up and we have been prepared, being completely honest, to live with some degree of injustice suffered by others.

Building in irredentism into our Constitution, building into it the claim to govern, to legislate for the entire island, has been a great mistake. All it has done is to irritate on the one hand and subtract from the moral authority, vis-á-vis its own people and its own people and the extremists, of the claimant state.

With regard to resisting our dead patriots, we should consider and watch the corrupting effect of the language of propaganda. Words are very important and we should use words which are carefully phrased and have regard to other people's susceptibilities. If, for example, there are emotions moving us because of our historical traditions, our language should have regard to the fact that there are an entirely different set of emotions moving the people in the other community we want to reach.

Senator Kelly, speaking here recently, said he did not think it made a great deal of sense to dicky up our Constitution to meet the wishes of the other community, the North of Ireland minority. I think we should not do anything which was in itself not justifiable simply to please anybody. As Christians we should recognise that there are two sovereigns, the civil and the spiritual. The civil has its rights. It is a form of injustice for the spiritual to trespass upon the rights of the civil. In so far as there is anything in our Constitution which represents a concession to the spiritual as a lobbying group, that should go unless it is acceptable to the other sovereign, the civil authority, as being in the common good of all.

A lot of language is loosely talked about a number of things. Before we decide on divorce we should ask ourselves is this desired by all the Christian Churches of Ireland? If not, what else has got to go out the window to please those who are not Christians? Is the implication of all of this that we must have a wholly secular State with no religion taught in schools? I am not giving the answer to any of these questions. I am simply stating that these questions should be considered on their own merits.

I am told that censorship is of some importance. Censorship as it was administered here for many years was idiotically stupid. Everyone knows that. Equally there is a growing body of opinion that something should be done with regard to pornography. I should like to feel that we would have the right kind of law with regard to this. There is nothing about censorship in the Constitution. This is a matter of legislation. I cannot see this matter being capable of being enshrined in any particular Bill of Rights.

To summarise in one sentence what I have been trying to say through much of my speech, I think we should ask ourselves is all the difficulty, as seems to be implied, due to the fact that the vast majority of the people of the Republic are Catholics and that there is a Church that they listen to? Is that true? Is there not just as much in our political tradition that repels and offends apart from the irridentism in the Constitution? What about the hanging of the Proclamation of Independence? Is this to be hung in schools in the Six Counties, the Easter Week Proclamation? It is a matter of policy. Have we bothered all the time to express our national aims in terms that would be satisfying to a united people some part of whom had a different set of loyalties to those indicated in that Proclamation?

It is right at this time that we should remember our own weaknesses—the tendency to premature action whereby O'Donnell lost the battle of Kinsale in 1691; an impatience for results expressing itself in the abortive rebellions of '48 and '67 and the tragic forays of '40 and '56, an extremism and a Utopianism in demands which always makes the best which is sought the enemy of the good which is attainable; and, above all, a fractious disunity which weakened the constitutional movement of Parnell in the 90's and launched our new State amid the bitterness of civil war.

I am not clear that the manner in which we have operated our party system has always been in the best interests of the people. What we need is not conquest of part of Ireland masquerading under the name of establishing a united Ireland. We need order, regularity, discipline and the acceptance of authority. We need the energy of patience, which someone called the master key to every situation, and the patience of charity. Someone has said with regard to the latter that the barriers of a fear-ridden "I" can only be overcome by love.

I should like to conclude by saying I believe that we should not be ashamed of moderation. Moderation throughout history has built the corals of civilisation and can solve our problems if there is courageous, articulate leadership. What finally we need is best expressed in the words of Aneurin Bevan. It is to achieve passion in the pursuit of qualified objectives. Remember the awful comment of the poet whose son is our chairman:

We had fed the heart on fantasies.

The heart's grown brutal from the fare.

More substance in our enmities

Than in our love.

The motion before us gives us an opportunity to discuss and suggest means for the running of the affairs of the State in our particular areas. It is an opportunity for me to give my personal opinion with regard to western problems and to offer concrete ideas which may or may not be used, or may not be of benefit. But above all at this stage of our history I should like to be honest and to speak without any fear. I would confine myself completely to the problems I see about me, particularly with regard to the administration of semi-State bodies in the West of Ireland.

First of all, there is the completion of the rural electrification scheme. A Bill which passed through this House recently made it very hard for some people who were not included in the rural electrification scheme 15 or 20 years ago to take advantage of the scheme. I am thinking in particular of people who live in backward areas and who, through no fault of their own, were not able to avail of rural electrification which was offered then at an economic price but who are able and willing to take it now. They have made many efforts through the years to get electricity installed but, because of labour shortage or because the price for installing it was too dear, they did not succeed in getting it. However, they continued to try to get it and now at last they have succeeded. Because the new system does not take into account their efforts over the years to obtain electricity, they have now to contend with a special service charge. I feel very sorry for such people who have to pay dearly now for the installation of electricity in their holdings. I can give instances where I consider the charges to be inhuman. I would ask the Minister with responsibility for the ESB to see if he could do something to alleviate the burden placed on those people by this special service charge.

I am sure we all welcome the new thinking in CIE which introduced the special cut-price rail charges throughout the country. It was about time they adopted new thinking with regard to their services. It is an obvious success but I think it could be expanded greatly, particularly in regard to the freight services. I can visualise the establishment of two depots in Connacht to cater for freight to Dublin. The cost of that freight could be based on the rate similar in application to the present passenger system. It could be less expensive than at present and would alleviate the present congestion of traffic on our roads. The present system of railway lines to the West could be used for this purpose. We hear many complaints of the bottlenecks on the roads to the West and CIE could play a major part in alleviating these if they provided a special low-cost freight rate from any of the western towns. This would be of great assistance to the smaller industries in that part of the country. Nowadays freight is completely containerised and is more easily handled. If depots were opened in Connacht with reduced freight charges to any of our major ports it would be of great assistance in the establishment of industries in the West.

In my home county of Galway I frequently observe two firms one of which sends a lorry loaded with produce for Dublin and the other an empty lorry to Dublin to bring back a load of produce. Such waste and expense could be avoided if CIE provided a good service operating from a central area in Connacht; such firms would avail of the service.

The matter of most importance to us in Connacht today is the situation concerning our sugar industry and our Erin Foods plant. Our sugar quota for EEC entry has been finalised. I cannot understand the logic behind sending Deputy Hillery and his negotiators to Brussels to negotiate a quota of 240,000 tons of sugar when, in fact, we would not be able to produce that amount. Take the significance of what an extra 1,000 tons of sugar would mean. One thousand tons of sugar is equal to 7,000 tons of beet. If we go down through the figures we will note that 90,000 tons of sugar above our quota was sought in the negotiations. That would be the equivalent of 630,000 tons of beet which, in itself, would be the equivalent of 42,000 acres of beet. That figure is twice as great as the production at our major sugar factory in Mallow. It was ridiculous to seek such a high quota. It has resulted, and will continue to result, in public despondency with regard to our sugar beet growing. Our negotiators have succeeded in obtaining an exceptionally good deal; they have obtained a quota of 150,000 tons of sugar plus 25,000 tons at a pro rata price. This extra 25,000 tons will be taken next year at the current EEC price and in all probability it will be taken at that price in 1974. After that it will operate on the two-tier system.

If we are to accept the statements made by the IFA with regard to the sugar quota we are led to believe that it was an exceptionally bad deal. I do not regard it as a bad deal. Take our record to date : we had never reached 150,000 tons of sugar in the history of our sugar industry until this year. We produced 168,000 tons of sugar this year and if we take away the figure for our home market consumption we are left with a stock of 40,000 tons of sugar in the Sugar Company stores. We should get a Northern Ireland quota of approximately 10,000 tons, which still leaves 30,000 tons of sugar in the stores of the Sugar Company. Denmark is the only country in the EEC areas that has decreased sugar production. This year France has in store over 1,000,000 tons of sugar over and above their consumption.

In those circumstances Deputy Hillery and his negotiators have done a wonderful job. All I am sorry for is the way in which people were brought into the streets to fight for a figure that was unrealistic from the day it started. There are hedgemen in every association—and they are actually in the town I am living in—talking this bluff, and I can call it nothing else. We saw the escapades and the aeroplanes going to and from Brussels. We saw IFA men stepping down from their lofty seats in Cork Airport appearing on television as if they were the negotiators.

I want to place the blame for this false figure—and I am sure I will be contradicted if I am wrong—on a select committee of the Sugar Company and BVA, which was formed last year in order to look into EEC terms and negotiations. I want now to blame that committee for having put this false figure of 240,000 tons out and putting our negotiators in such an awkward position in Brussels. What I want to make clear is that farmers and the general public may be struck by a feeling of despondency because of the so-called bad deal, because they have been led to believe it has been a bad deal, when in fact the exact opposite is correct and we have achieved an exceptionally good deal. It has been as good a deal as the fish one. In my opinion, it has been a better deal than the fishermen's deal and it was quite a good one. How can we understand and tolerate that on the morning of one day a national organisation can come out and say what a terrible bad deal this sugar deal has been and on the evening of the same day they can comment and say it was not such a bad deal at all. I do not understand that logic. It is above me. When one takes into account that figure—43,000 acres of extra beet they look for—when we are going to have a job to fill the quota we already have, would we not look very foolish if we are not able to fill it. Did the IFA think on those lines when they were agitating and suggesting? We are going to have a tough fight to fill the present quota and would we as a nation not look silly if we failed to fill it?

When the two-tier system applies in later years, perhaps 1975, let us place the emphasis of the two-tier system on those who will have to grow extra beet at a lower price in the places that have cried out for it over the last few years. Let us not on any account have a two-tier price system in Connacht. Let us send it to those areas that are now crying out for beet and where there is the acreage to do it. They can carry the brunt of a lower price. A two-tier system in Connacht will not work. We must get top price if we are to make a success of that industry which is so important to the whole economy of the West of Ireland. If we are to keep it there and maintain it, and not alone maintain it but to try and increase it, we must get opportunity.

The Western Beet and Potato Growers' Association recently sent a deputation to the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries. They suggested what was needed in the West of Ireland and made a positive demand— it was a good idea, and showed positive thinking—that a productivity bonus scheme should be applied to the smallholders in Connacht in order to encourage them to grow and indeed to give them the basic fundamental of equal opportunity. They suggested that they get £1.50 a ton. The Government are considering it and, if they agree with it in principle, then we will not have those people in Dublin who, from day to day or from one time of the year to the other, take it on themselves to say: "We must do something about the West of Ireland. They are all starving with the hunger down there." That is the greatest falsehood that was ever nurtured in this city. My advice to them is to leave us alone, or pay heed to what we have to say.

I say that with sincerity because I know many fine young men living in the West of Ireland who are proud of the fact that they are living there. If designation in EEC or if productivity bonuses bring equal opportunity to them, all will be well. But if it does not prevail and is not applied, I am afraid that they will have their backs to the wall. They are not normally beggarmen. They are people who ask for help when they see no other way. They have now suggested this positive way. In the long term it could mean the elimination of the dole.

But I must add in this context that there are people in the West who need dole to survive in the present system because they have not the opportunity to make a decent living out of their smallholdings. The average acreage of farmers in County Galway is 25 acres. There are 2,124 farmers in Connacht who produce 4,100 acres of beet for the Tuam factory. East of the Shannon 939 growers supply 4,100 acres of beet to the factory. That fact alone proves my point and proves that the small-holders must get extra help. It would be wise for people to listen to them in order to ascertain how they want this help applied.

It is very important that this new idea of a productivity bonus be given detailed consideration. Because it is new thinking in the West. I might add that it is already applied in EEC— for example, to beet growers in Southern Italy. I know the Government will give it every consideration.

Again, I want to emphasise that when this two-tier price system for beet is applied, it should not be thought of for Connacht for it will not be accepted on any account. Whether it be the Sugar Company or the IFA, or any of those other economic geniuses who might suggest it, let them be wary, for if they ever try to apply this two-tier system they will be brought down.

We have had tough times in the sugar industry in Tuam. It was the Cinderella of the sugar factories. Many things are blamed on it but I do not think that anybody ever went out about the countryside around Tuam to find out why it was so.

It would be a good exercise to find out why the farmers of Connacht are not growing beet. I would suggest it is solely because the price is not good enough. Last year we had a situation at the potato plant of Erin Foods in Tuam, a situation which was created by the dinosaurs of the big producers, who after national negotiations for potatoes had been completed and agreed made new agreements and secured for themselves in the eastern counties a 25 per cent tonnage increase at the expense of the West of Ireland. Now they cry in the public Press and say: "Bad management of Erin Foods has left us this year of 1972 without potato contracts."

Let the facts be crystal clear. They are the people who flooded the Tuam potato plant with potatoes last year. They are the people who caused this surplus potato flake by negotiating after contracts were finalised. If certain blame has to be laid on Erin Foods, then I lay the blame on those people who accepted supplies from midland counties and gave them this extra contract.

We have the recent threats of redundancies and major troubles in Tuam. It resembles a fairytale. When supplies cannot be sold in Dublin they blame the fact on some of the small towns in the country. The management of the Sugar Company announced that redundancies would probably take place. I should like to make clear to the House that 3 per cent of the total cost of the production of potato flake in Tuam goes to manpower. This means that 25 per cent of the people in the Tuam factory would have to be sacked in order to make a 1 per cent saving. It is no wonder our Minister for Finance said this was wrong mathematics and assured us there would be no redundancies. I am very pleased about this.

It would be much better if those people in the Sugar Company building went abroad and sold the produce that is manufactured in Tuam and the other Erin Food factories. I hope Erin Foods in Tuam will never lose its identity because the potato operation is the only one in the entire Erin Foods enterprise which consistently makes a profit. The defeatist attitude which they have applied to next year's contracts of allowing us only 15,000 tons of potatoes will not be accepted. If the people of Connacht want to supply 25,000 tons of potatoes, Erin Foods must accept them. The salesmen in Erin Foods will have to find markets for these products. Erin Foods must be made aware of our stand in this regard. They are one of the best employers in our county. More than 300 people work in the Tuam plant for 11 months of any year. This proportion is practically as high as the sugar industry. Therefore we should maintain and encourage it, and ensure it has sufficient supplies and is recognised as a major industry.

As against that, some people will say that the farmers of Connacht have let down the company, but there have been reasons for this. If people do not wish to know the reasons they have no right to complain. It was a very bad situation when the growers in the eastern part of the country were offered a £1 per ton more for potatoes than those in a parish four miles away from the factory. If a grower in Connacht sold his potatoes to a grower in Meath, Louth or Offaly he would get a £1 more for them and he in turn could still supply Erin Foods. These were the causes. Fortunately the situation has been resolved. That is why I hope this quota of 15,000 tons will be put aside and a new incentive will be given for the sale of produce.

Some years ago, during the months of November and December, stocks of potato flake piled up in Tuam but by July all stocks were gone, so if there is a small surplus there again this year it should be hoarded. When there is more work done in sales there will be better times for all. At the moment we are dependent on 92 per cent total sales in Great Britain, but surely there are other markets, especially with an enlarged Europe. Never again should we be dependent to such an extent on one market. Therefore, I think the Minister should allow us to have our 30,000 quota in Connacht next year, and if there is not a sufficient surplus in Connacht they should get it from somewhere else. The industry should grow and expand and be given a productivity bonus to produce the quantity. If such a bonus were applied now at the rate of £1.50 per ton on beet and potatoes in Connacht, the total sum would be in the region of £126,000, which is not a big sum. That is not a big investment to the people of Connacht. Those young men from the Western Beet and Potato Growers' Organisation who came up here on a deputation to the Department of Agriculture were absolutely right and I give full credit to them for what they said. If a new major industry such as either of these two are sanctioned, would the grants from the IDA not almost come to that? Here we already have an industry, but because equality does not apply at the present they must seek produce elsewhere.

This is a good investment in Connacht. The emphasis is being placed on the right thing, in production. When a man supplies 20 tons he should get a £30 cheque as a productivity bonus from the Department of Agriculture for being interested. I hope it will work out right. My advice to the IFA or the NFA is to have another look at the West of Ireland and study its problems. Petty talk in Dublin and Cork at meetings does not solve them. In the light of the need for decentralisation, one must look at this new monument they have built for themselves out in Bluebell. I cannot understand the logic of a farmers' organisation with total dependence on rural Ireland building themselves a monument in the heart of an industrial estate in the major city of this country. Yet they are the people who cry when——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator is now criticising rather specifically individuals who are not the persons responsible for the Estimates before us.

When we remember the major statements made by this organisation after negotiations on sugar in Europe we get the impression that it is they who did the negotiations there. I think they are entitled to get a rap here if it is coming to them.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Chair sat patiently while they were given quite a few raps. I think the Senator should be content with that.

I suppose we could never stop rapping them if we wanted to. I will take the Chair's advice. But, broadly speaking, Government policy in the West of Ireland, with all the outcries that have been against it, has been quite effective. The latest census has proved that Galway has more than maintained its population. While there has been a drop in the neighbouring counties, it has not been as great as it used be. It is a good sign for the future. We in Connacht can make a job of that province for ourselves and we do not have to depend on economists from other countries, other provinces or other major cities to do it for us. The West is awake.

This debate on the Appropriation Bill every year gives an opportunity to Senators from many walks of life, including professional politics, to give their assessment on the way things are going, but in particular the way the Government in power at the particular time have done their duty and whether or not they have come up to the expectations of the electorate. I agree with most of what Senator Killilea has said about the operation of semi-State bodies. The Chair could call me to order and say that semi-State bodies should not be mentioned in this debate, but after all——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

In case the Senator is misleading himself, the operation of semi-State bodies which are supported by grants-in-aid in the Estimates are relevant in the debate.

Thank you, Sir. When you said to the Senator from Galway that he was possibly going too far in one direction, I accepted that. Seeing that in the Dáil, when questions are put to a Minister about semi-State bodies, he invariably answers that he has no responsibility for those bodies, it is good that in the Seanad an opportunity is being given to talk about the matter without overdoing it. My friend, Senator Killilea, has talked about the operations of the semi-State bodies. If Senator Killilea has fault to find with those organisations, he also must have fault to find with the Government that must direct semi-State bodies or they would not be semi-State bodies at all. If the Government intend to impose their policies on ordinary industrialists, ordinary workers, ordinary salaried people, surely they must also impose them on semi-State bodies. Leaving that aside, Sir, I agree with Senator Killilea that if you have two factories in the town of Tuam, a sugar beet factory and a potato processing factory, they must be made viable in the area in which they exist. It is the responsibility of the Government and the community as a whole, for social reasons if not purely economic ones, to make these factories viable in the interests of the workers who live there. The methods of doing this are the problem. I do not intend to go into it to the same degree as Senator Killilea who has outlined methods that he himself thinks would make the factories viable. The fear in my mind and the fear in everybody else's mind at this moment is that there will be redundancy. Redundancy in the West can be far more serious than redundancy in the East for the reason that the number of industries in the West is so small and the people are so ill-trained for work in any type of industry except the farming industry and the food processing industry that their only hope is to emigrate if they become redundant.

I would agree with Senator Killilea in asking that the Government examine this situation in all its aspects to ensure that, in so far as Government policy can help, there will be an organisation set up by Erin Foods and Cómhlucht Siúicra Éireann Teo, which will mean that the farmer in the West of Ireland will be able to get a suitable price for his product, that he will get all the necessary advice and all the necessary subsidies to ensure that this product is the best that can be produced from the type of soil available and that the workers will be assured of jobs. That is something with which we must all be concerned. Everybody is appalled at the number of redundancies that we have at the moment and at the thought of the redundancies that may be on the point of recurring in the not too distant future, but apparently nobody has a solution to this problem.

A realistic assessment of the situation is a very important thing at this point in time, and a realistic assessment of more than the employment problem, or the political problem, or the social problem. All are intertwined, all are intermingled, and all are of equal importance to the Church, to the people, to the Government and to the Opposition as well. Indeed, one of the hallmarks of any democracy is that a good, virile Opposition will examine the workings of the Government over a period. There is one thing with which I disagree, but it is a common practice in all democracies, that the Opposition always find fault with everything the Government do. This is a practice that has grown in England and in the United States of America and in practically every other democracy, particularly in two-party systems. Of course, in this country we may be said to have a three-party system; however, there is a Government and there is an Opposition. The best feature of all is that a Government can be taken to task by an Opposition who are watching the score and can say at the end of the year: "You did not do this or you did not do that."

As I said earlier, I disagree entirely with the fact that an Opposition will blame the Government for everything and that if the Government do something good they will never give them credit for it. That is wrong, in my opinion, and it breeds more wrongs.

Can we say that the present Administration has justified itself over the past year? I think that in any field or on any score the Opposition have to say that it did not. Let us take the employment field—and I am not going to dwell on that because that has been talked about by other Senators here, Senators on the Government side as well who are concerned about it. I want to ask the question: Knowing the situation that might arise through our entry to the EEC and also the fact that turmoil in the North has caused a decrease in tourism and consequent unemployment in the tourist, hotel and catering industries, did the Government at any time think seriously about what would be the end result of this? Did they make any plans whatsoever to meet a situation such as has arisen and might worsen in the not too distant future? Is it not the purpose of Government that they examine these things and that they have a policy on them if they intend to direct the economy? Did they do that? I am afraid that the results show that they did not. Consequently some blame must attach to them for the fact that there is redundancy and unemployment. I hope the message gets through to them, because I think everybody here will agree that what I say is true.

There are so many fields that we could mention, but the care of the aged is one problem about which I am very concerned. Have the Government over the past year, two years, or ten years, or since the last period of inter-Party Government, been so supremely concerned with the care of the aged that they have provided for housing, sufficient money to ensure that the poor unfortunate aged are able to find enough to eat, to find enough clothes and enough heat in the winter time to keep them warm? Have they given this the utmost consideration, or have they just said "For the present we will provide some sustenance, social security or old age pensions"? The rate of the old age pension is not going to be governed by the needs of the old people, but will be governed by the ability of the State and taxation to sustain them. Did anybody ever hear anything as unchristian as the idea that what the taxpayer and the State can afford will be the criterion on which assistance to old people is based? Do they forget that these old people who have not enough to eat are dying in garrets in Dublin city, but fortunately not so much in the country because charity exists in country areas, where most neighbours know if somebody is in travail or in want, in a way in which it cannot exist in Dublin city. I do not want to labour this point but the sooner the Government and everybody concerned with government gets away from the idea that the only thing you can do about the aged is based on what the community is able to pay is wrong, the better. Again, are we doing enough for our mentally and physically handicapped? I contend that we are not. I am not saying that miracles could be performed, but we have never approached this in a Christian concept at any level. Fortunately for us there are a number of voluntary organisations who are doing magnificent work throughout the country for these people. They should all get credit here in this House for the work they are doing. I am not going to mention any one in particular, but how many unfortunate mentally handicapped, whether mildly or moderately or severely handicapped, would be a burden on their people with nobody to do anything for them, with nothing but darkness to look into, but for the voluntary organisations? I claim it is the job of the Government to set up the machinery to deal with these things and not to leave it entirely to voluntary organisations. The Department of Health should set up a special branch to deal immediately with these matters, because these are immediate matters. These are not cases where you can say: "Next year we will be able to solve this, next year we will solve that." These are things to which everybody in public life must give consideration.

I do not intend to go into educational matters that have been covered by educationalists, professors and everybody else concerned with it. What I am going to say about education is this: in Mayo I have been a member of a vocational education committee for over 20 years. We have attempted in our own way to provide a network of education throughout the county, which is a region more than a county. With great difficulty over the years we have succeeded in having a network of schools throughout the whole area. For reasons of geography, terrain and that sort of thing, it is very difficult to cover an area like Mayo and to ensure that you have in this network the facilities to which children are lawfully entitled in this day and age, but we have tried. We are frustrated day in and day out by the obstacles that are put in our way in trying to provide suitable school buildings. In the town of Ballina, which is the largest town in County Mayo, we have proposals over the past three years for the building of a complete vocational school complex. Through lack of funds or through plans which did not envisage expansion, the existing site and everything connected with it was found to be no longer suitable for modern education. We, on the committee, decided five years ago to buy a site and to ensure as far as possible that it would be big enough to contain the buildings necessary. Having done all this and having got approval for the site we sent the plans to the Department of Education. The plans were looked at and were sent back; we were told to take another look at them and re-design certain portions. They were sent back again and went from the Department of Education to the Board of Works. They returned the plans to the Department of Education who returned them to the architects, quantity surveyor and so on. Eventually, after years of this, and when there seemed to be no good reason why we should not proceed with the building, we were told through a letter from the Department of Education that it was impossible to proceed with this building before the middle of June, 1972.

I could bore the House with details of the type of accommodation which is in the school. The teachers have to put 20 children into a storeroom measuring 15 feet by eight feet. Other children often were put into an annex outside, covered over with polythene and with no heating, in order that they could attend classes in motor engineering and metal work. You know the facilities one can have for metal work in a polythene building with a few laths outside.

It is very frustrating for anybody connected with education to find that year after year the Department give the excuse that at the present time they cannot see their way to approve this project after all the years spent on it. I could give you the history of many other schools in the county but not one which pinpoints the situation as well as the one in Ballina.

The vexed question of community schools will be discussed for a long time to come. The final solution to the community schools problem will not be found by accepting the dictates of one Church or one political party. There will have to be round table conferences to decide exactly what the representation will be. It is the taxpayers' and ratepayers' money that will provide the facilities. Taxpayers, rate-payers, parents, teachers, clergy and the Department will all have to find the modus operandi that will satisfy everybody and the big stick either from Department or Church, no matter what Church it is, must be left aside. Possibly, the least said about this, except in a conciliatory way, the better for the country at the present time, and the better for education.

Business suspended at 6 p.m. and resumed at 7.30 p.m.

Before the tea break I was speaking on education. I had mentioned vocational education, the problems arising from the lack of school facilities and the delay in providing them. Before I leave that subject there is one thing I should like to mention and that is scholarships from the vocational education committees to regional technical colleges. In the context of free education and subsidised university scholarships, it is an extraordinary thing that county vocational education committees have the right to award a certain number of scholarships to regional technical colleges.

In Mayo, for historical and traditional reasons, the committee decided to award all their scholarships to students of vocational schools. This was their right if they so desired but it has caused a problem. The problem is that students of secondary schools, who want to avail of technical education and who may have a higher standard in academic subjects, feel that they should have the right, if they so desire, to avail of the scholarships to enter a regional technical college. Perhaps this is a legitimate idea in their minds and perhaps there is a certain amount of right involved, but members of vocational education committees— this was known as the poor man's college for many years—feel that the emphasis in this modern, technological age should be placed more on technological and technical education but not to the exclusion of academic education. The motivation behind the fact that the Mayo Vocational Education Committee decided to confine to their own pupils the scholarships they were authorised to grant was based on these factors.

As it is a national problem the Government, having taken the stand of providing equal and free education for all, should ensure that scholarships to the regional technical colleges will be the responsibility of the central Government and the Department of Education. In so doing they will ensure that this problem of a differentiation between students of vocational and secondary schools will be resolved. I would impress upon the Minister the necessity of ensuring that in the future all scholarships to regional technical colleges will be made the responsibility of the central Government, which means the Department of Education.

Mention has been made this evening of our entry into the EEC. When speaking here a fortnight ago I told the House I was in favour of entering the EEC. My party are also in favour of entering. I should like to remind this House of the strength of the anti-EEC movement. I do not suggest for one moment that the speakers, in making their case, represent any particular section. They are vocal and able and, in my view, calculated to influence quite a large number of unsophisticated people—strangely enough for the reason that they are not particularly involved in party politics.

This is a factor that possibly nobody recognises. People speaking on behalf of political parties have in their audience their own diehard supporters. There is, on the other hand, a diehard opposition. The people who elect all Governments are the in-betweeners, the people who are not diehard in any particular way. They are the people who will finally have the say as to whether or not the referendum is carried for or against entry into the EEC. Those who are not committed to the views of either the principal Opposition party or the Government may be swayed because of the people who are able to put forward a case for non-entry. We may find ourselves in the situation, if all of us do not put our shoulders to the wheel, that through default the wrong decision is taken by the electorate. I give the Irish people full credit for taking, in the main, the right decision in referenda put to them up to now. I firmly believe they will take the right decision in the future. This cannot be a hit-or-miss thing.

There are people who believe, as I believe, that there is no future outside the EEC. They will have to put their shoulders to the wheel in no uncertain way to ensure that the referendum is carried by a majority. I hope this will be so and I hope that everybody who is a believer in the EEC will speak out loudly and clearly to ensure that everyone will realise that there is no future for us outside the EEC. Most of the people I have been speaking about are very glib and very well able to put across a point of view and appeal to emotions and sympathies rather than to reason. Such people would not be elected to a parish council. The elected representatives of all parties are the people whose voices should be heard loudly and clearly.

We in this State—unfortunately we cannot call it a nation because if we are to believe in the truths of nationhood Ireland should be free from the centre to the sea—have a sense of values but I am afraid that the sense of values which resulted in the establishment of the State, and the work of the State from its establishment are being eroded, with resultant dangers. The right of the individual to freely express himself in the ballot box was established here many years ago. After he had declared his views the institutions of the State ensured that his views duly expressed through the ballot box were carried and upheld.

The leader of the House earlier this evening made a speech which in the main—even though I am of a different political party but possibly of the same age group—I could agree with. If I wanted to take him to task on whether or not the view of the majority were supreme and that conciliation was the method of achieving everything and brought him back to the civil war I might antagonise some of my friends across the House. Truth itself should never be uttered without justice and judgment, because truth without justice and judgment is not truth at all. I do not want to embark on that subject because I think the leader of the House, who has many times been very abrasive with the Opposition here, made a speech this evening with which most of us could agree.

To return again to our sense of values, if we acknowledge that the ballot box is to be the deciding factor we must decry the bomb and the bullet. It is necessary for all elected representatives to state that none of us agrees with violence as a solution to our problems, whether that violence is in the Republic or in our six northeastern counties. This fact must be stated loudly and clearly by everybody from the foremost frontbenchers to the least backbencher in this House. If we acknowledge that the bomb, the bullet, murder, arson and counter-reprisal are going to solve the problem we are forgetting everything connected with the establishment and the history of this State.

We had a civil war; I will not enlarge upon it or say what the motivations behind it were but the greatest thing that happened to this State was not the 1916 Rebellion, the Treaty, or the end of the civil war, but the day that William T. Cosgrave handed over Government to the people who had gone out on the hills and opposed him with the gun, the bomb, the bullet and the bayonet. That was the greatest day in the history of this State, the day on which the ballot box overcame the gun, the bomb and the bullet. It is on that example that we in this House, and in the other House, must base whatever feelings, whatever thoughts and whatever hopes, we have for a solution to the all-Ireland problem. It must be based on the fact that this Parliament, elected by the free will of the people, holds the reins of Government for good or for ill. In the future, no matter what happens, it is on that basis that this State will survive.

Does anybody think that we should give way to the outcry of people who represent nobody but themselves and who can take a gun or a bomb and say: "We are going to force the elected representatives of the people into a situation in which they must acknowledge us"? If you give way to that idea or accept that idea why can you not then say: "Well, the students are right to riot and burn the town because they disagree with their teachers or the curriculum. They are right to sit down in the streets and to hold up the commercial progress of the country just because they declare they do not believe." If you allow for one moment the philosophy of the gun or the philosophy of violence to take over you are ignoring the foundations of democracy, the institutions of State, and you will end up with anarchy.

In the final part of his speech this evening the leader of the House said it was up to all men of goodwill to be careful of what they say and to do nothing that might exacerbate the situation. Before he said that, I had written it down myself. I am with him completely in expressing that sentiment. The danger is there and it is up to all of us to speak out loudly and clearly and state that the institutions of State, through the ballot box, are what we adhere to and what we will fight to maintain if fighting is necessary. However, being a pacifist, I hope it will not be.

The Taoiseach has issued a booklet containing his comments and speeches dealing with the situation in Northern Ireland. I have not read it completely but have read some of it. At election time, during the hustings an Opposition politician could after reading it, interpret it to suit himself. However, in deference to this House and to the institutions that we wish to uphold, I should like to state that what the Taoiseach wants, and what all men of goodwill want, is a solution without violence and a reconciliation between all Irishmen. How it is going to come about is another problem.

The Taoiseach has met Mr. Wilson and has discussed the situation with him. I do not think that Mr. Wilson, who is leader of the Opposition in Britain, has decided for the first time to seek a formula for reconciliation. Mr. Wilson, in office, might not be the same Mr. Wilson in opposition, but we must give him credit for attempting this, and I hope that he will be successful. In the political picture I cannot see Mr. Heath lending his ear to Mr. Wilson any more than if Deputy Cosgrave took the initiative here and dictated his policy to the Taoiseach. The formula has to be found. Let us all hope and pray that it will be found soon. If not, what will be the result? As usual, the British have played into the hands of the people that they intend to put down. British history has proved it everywhere. At every stage they have always taken the wrong turn and used the wrong method. They are making the same mistakes in Northern Ireland, and have forced the moderate Catholic community in Northern Ireland to support the IRA, which is what the IRA set out to do. The British Government have played into their hands. No doubt, Mr. Wilson has told this to Mr. Heath who might not like to accept it, though it be a fact.

Violence breeds more violence, murder breeds reprisals, reprisal breeds more murder. The innocent suffer with the guilty, but the innocent more so. How long will it last? Even now, the British are not able to see that a policy of reconciliation is the one to pursue. The British have always said: "We are not going to give in to the murder gang." They said the same thing here in 1921 and they changed their minds, because the political situation in their own country blew up in their faces. It is only when the political situation in their own country blows up in their faces that they will heed anything now.

In the context of EEC, where Europe is listening, it is up to the Taoiseach and the Government to bring the problem to the notice of the governments of Europe in no uncertain way, even though they in the past had their own faults. They will listen, and it will be far better to be listened to in the context of the European Parliament, of which we are about to become a member, than in the United Nations, where our voice is so small. It is the earnest hope of everybody here that in 1972 all men of goodwill should seek, by every means in their power, a reconciliation between the divided elements of this country, or even the beginning of a reconciliation. If that happens this year, then it will be a fortuitous one for our country.

My purpose in contributing to this debate is to refer to something in which I have a great interest and to which I owe a debt that I shall never be able to repay. I am speaking of the game of hurling. I wish to refer to the fact that turnover tax and wholesale tax is being charged on hurleys. I learned of this only recently and should like to give some of the figures for last year. In 1971 the GAA purchased 43,150 hurling sticks for juveniles. While no complete records are available for hurleys for adults, it is no overstatement to approximate that 60,000 were purchased by members of the association. It has been calculated that turnover tax and wholesale tax on hurleys for juveniles and adults cost the association 6½p and 13p each approximately. This tax on hurleys for juveniles amounted to £2,795 and for adults it was £7,800. The game of hurling is a very expensive one for the association. The lifting of this tax, however, would help to boost the revival of the game in no small way. The tax saved to the Central Council, which bears 50 per cent of the tax on hurleys for juveniles would help defray the cost of a fulltime hurling officer. I should like to mention that the special position of the GAA was recognised by the Government in the Finance Act of 1927 when the GAA was allowed an income tax exemption on profits.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am sorry to intervene at this stage. The Senator is discussing taxation and taxation only. It may seem strange to anyone listening to this debate that anything could be out of order. However, individual taxes and details of taxation are out of order in this debate. It is in order to refer, in passing, to the general matters of taxation and their effect.

I think that this matter of turnover tax is a very important matter of principle. Senator Doyle has touched on a very important point which I should like to develop later on, if I get a chance.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator West has shown the great wisdom of the Chair in intervening at an early stage in this matter. It is open to Senators to refer to taxation in general but, the debate which this motion replaces has traditionally been a debate on finance in general and matters which are more appropriate to a Finance Bill are not in order. It is in order to make passing and general references but to discuss the sections of Finance Bills is certainly out of order.

The Senator said it anyway.

This being our national game I thought there would be special concessions given to it. I am sure we all recognise the importance of this game as far as our youth are concerned.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That point is perfectly in order.

I have made my point anyway. I should like if the Minister could abolish those taxes. Indeed, if there are any Senators here who are not acquainted with the game or with the hurleys which I mentioned I will be glad to give them a demonstration out on the lawn any day.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That would not be in order.

That is all I have to say. I shall be very pleased if these concessions are granted. I am sure most of the Senators on both sides of the House will agree with me.

The Senator scored a point, if not a goal.

On that point I believe the splendid charity match which the Members of the Oireachtas took part in last year in Croke Park is next season to be half Gaelic football and half hurling in order to give Senator Doyle just the opportunity he needs to demonstrate the serious position of turnover tax on hurleys. Seeing that he has raised the matter of taxation I should like to say that I do not think the GAA should be exempt on any specific ground. All sports goods should be exempt from turnover tax. Along with other Members of this House I should like to see the exemption of turnover tax being made in respect of certain categories of books which we have discussed.

I should like to take up the point that the Leader of the House, Senator Ó Maoláin, made earlier on when he cast some strictures on our students. I do not think he meant his remarks to be interpreted as covering every student. Let me say that I do not defend for a moment the rudeness, the bad manners or the downright disruptiveness of some small groups of students at important political meetings. I would remind the Leader of the House that protests of a vigorous form have become more common in all parts of Irish society. The students are reflecting this. To correct any wrong impression, let me say that these disruptions are carried out by very small groups of people.

The Irish student body as a whole are as responsible as they were in Senator Ó Maoláin's day. They reflect fairly accurately some of the divisions that we see in our society today. Students who come on the political scene at the age of 19 or 20 in the university do not consider the past. They are more interested in the future.

Some of the politicians who have been here for a long time and have worked very hard to protect and improve our democratic institutions get very worked up and very annoyed when they see these institutions, and the politicians who are involved in them, coming under severe criticism from the students. Provided this criticism is constructive and made in a reasonable way then no bad feeling should be engendered, although this sometimes happens because students' criticism is very pointed. When the students protest in a violent, rude or disruptive way perhaps it is because they feel that unless they get the headlines, or unless they are seen to make rude gestures to Government Ministers or paint the American Ambassador's car in red, they will not get their point across and what they say will not be listened to. This is a valid argument. Sometimes one gets the impression in this part of the country that the political parties are too monolithic.

There is not enough room inside the political parties for diversions of opinion. It takes too long for a group to get its message from the bottom of a political party to the top. We are in danger of a certain smugness, myself and other politicians included. Because we have a democratic system which is working, and people who are older than I have put a great deal of their lifework into this system, they feel annoyed when it comes under criticism. However, we must, if our political parties, our democratic institutions and the whole apparatus of Government is to serve the needs of the present day, face the fact that it must change and keep changing. Any system that is worth its salt should be able to adapt itself to modern conditions.

One of the criticisms that students most frequently make in this country is that our Irish political system has not adapted itself and is not changing enough. It is felt that it is not giving the younger people the opportunity they need to express their views politically. This is a valid criticism. I am a good deal younger and a great deal less experienced than many of the people who have spoken in this debate but perhaps this gives me a better reason for putting this point of view. I should like to develop it farther.

We Members of the Oireachtas should be constantly examining the way in which the Oireachtas itself should be developing. It badly needs development. The political parties themselves need to change and develop. They need to encourage diversity of opinion, and to assimilate larger groups of people. They must never give the impression that everything comes from the top and goes down, and that nothing gets back up from the bottom. Our political parties tend to give that impression.

One very simple way in which the student body in Ireland could play a much more responsible role in politics is if the voting age were lowered to 18 years. This is most important. There is everything to be gained from such a move. The students would respond in a responsible manner. When most people at college, university or in their last year of school at 19 years are protesting they do so because they have no say in our democratic system. The sooner the voting age is lowered the better.

They say it with tomatoes sometimes.

Let me develop this point further. There has been a good deal of criticism in this debate some of it justifiable, of the extreme views being expressed and the extreme policies carried out by the protesting groups, and in particular by the two wings of Sinn Féin.

I in common with virtually every other Senator here have Republican leanings in that I wish to see Ireland united. I wish to see it peaceably done. I wish to see Ireland as a country in which people can agree on a democratic system. I wish to see things evolving democratically. It is clear that the Republicans—I use this word to mean extreme Republicans now—have the aim of Irish unity very clearly in their minds, but the methods they use to achieve it are totally abhorrent to me.

I always feel some trepidation when I use the word "Republican" because anybody who wishes to be a saint or a martyr in this country calls himself a Republican. I have no wish to enter either of these categories. I often think of poor Wolfe Tone whenever the commemoration day in Bodenstown comes around. Three or four groups of people, some of them official and some of them unofficial, go down to Wolfe Tone's grave in Bodenstown and make speeches that give completely different interpretations of Wolfe's Tone's republicanism. I often think that Wolfe Tone is resting in some happier cemetery somewhere else on that particular day of the year because if he were around he would probably not wish to be associated with any of the republican philosophies put out in his name. I feel that it is a terrible desecration of his position in Irish society to keep on saying: "Wolfe Tone would have said this; this is what Wolfe Tone republicanism means." We should not read more into Wolfe Tone's speeches than the words that are there. How do we know what exactly he meant in certain situations? What right have we whoever we are, to say that Wolfe Tone said this and therefore he meant something else?

On many occasions I have felt affinity for the ideas put forward by various Sinn Féin groups, but I do not agree with the way they carry their ideas into practice. We have a real danger to face in this part of the country if a large dissatisfied minority grows up working outside our democratic institutions. This is the real, basic cause of the trouble in Northern Ireland. If pressure from Westminster had been brought to bear on the Unionist Government to ensure that a large minority was not operating outside a system by which it was being governed without its consent, then what would have happened? The Unionist Party and the other arms of Stormont would have absorbed the people whose aim was eventually to have a united Ireland. This would have changed the party structure. It would have changed the whole philosophy. If the Unionists could have seen the necessity for doing this, gradually we would have evolved together. It is precisely because they felt that, backed up by Westminster, they could preserve their hold on power in the North of Ireland and they could preserve their State without taking the views of those people who believe in a united Ireland into account that the tragedy to which we are all seeking a solution has befallen Northern Ireland.

Let us reflect on our situation here with a group operating outside the confines of our democratic institutions. Everybody has got a duty to try and make our system flexible enough to contain these different shades of opinion. This is why I find it very important when, in this House or in the other House, people of very strong republican views express them, and express them forcibly. This does a great service and it is most important that the political parties should incorporate this republicanism and its spirit. It is a genuine spirit, but it has rejected our democratic institutions as the way to effect change. To do this our system has got to change and be prepared to change. What is more important is that it has got to show that it is prepared to change and to accept different points of view inside the parties and to try and bring these forward. If we do not recognise this we are going to run into severe trouble here, just as the problems have arisen in the North of Ireland.

Let me say some more about reform of our Parliamentary system. I was forced to think deeply about this when I was asked to fill in a questionnaire sent around by the Department of Finance on what I felt my salary should be. I had to think pretty hard before I could give an honest estimate of what my salary should be. My feeling was that if I was worked considerably harder by the Government and the Oireachtas, making more use of this House in many different ways, then I should be earning my salary and I should have no qualms of conscience about it. I am glad to say that in the last year the Seanad met for more hours than any previous Seanad since the history of the State.

The introduction of Bills, especially those Bills of a technical nature, in this House before they went to the other House was a success. We strengthened the legislation. We criticised it constructively and made large numbers of amendments. This practice is a most important one and I would like to see it continued and developed. I would like to see this House being used as a committee of government because the great criticism that I make of our parliamentary system is the problem of organisation of the Lower House. Legislation just does not get through on time.

Anybody who is a student of parliamentary democracy would agree with this criticism of the Lower House. It is up to all parties to get together and to work out a system which will allow us to clear the log-jam of legislation in the Lower House. That is essential. I would like to see a committee system, being introduced to deal with the Committee Stage of Bills in the Lower House. This would expedite proceedings tremendously. There are all sorts of ways in which this could be done.

The Irish people will no longer stand for the present problems in the Dáil which, as far as I can ascertain, are brought about by the fact that the parties will not agree on the way the reform should be put into operation. Everybody knows that there should be reform. There are ridiculous situations of people talking for seven hours on an estimate, and of estimates going on for days and weeks when other legislation should be coming through more quickly. As society changes and develops and as it gets more complex more legislation of a complex nature will be needed. This should be dealt with in committee. The reforms will have to be made if our parliamentary system is to play its proper part in the complex of modern society.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I should be glad if the Senator would pass from that point as the advocation of legislation in connection with parliamentary reform is outside the scope of the debate and has been so ruled earlier in the debate.

Right. I have finished with that point in any case. I should like to develop the general theme of improvement of our system. I think, for example, that there is absolutely no reason why proceedings in both Houses should not be televised. It would get more of the public involved and it would necessarily raise the standard of proceedings. It would be of great benefit to everybody.

I should like to illustrate what I mean by the log-jam of legislation with the rather depressing statistic—and I think I am correct in quoting it—that since the foundation of the State only one Private Members' Bill has ever been passed by both Houses. I think that is correct. Only one Private Members' Bill has ever been passed —and that originated in this House, I am glad to say, with an independent Senator, Senator Stanford. It dealt with cruelty to animals.

This is a sad state of affairs. There are many areas in which Private Members' legislation could play a very important role and where Private Members' Bills should be treated with the seriousness they deserve. I get the impression from the general feeling around the House that, when a Private Member or three Members produce a Bill and put it on the Order Paper, it is regarded as a bit of a joke and everybody says: "Oh, that has not a hope of getting through." Of course, statistically it has very little chance if only one Bill has got through in 50 years. We have got to change this.

There are many areas in which Private Members' legislation could make a tremendous difference to the expediting of business in Parliament. I felt that this House lost a great opportunity in the last year when it did not allow even the First Stage on the Bill dealing with family planning problems, in the names of Senator Robinson, Senator Horgan and myself. I think this was a very sad decision and it will rebound. I hope that other legislation in the name of Private Members on the Order Paper will be treated more favourably and more seriously. I felt that too much of a joke was made out of a very genuine attempt to correct what I feel and what the other proposers felt was a situation which needed rectifying and which was an imposition on a minority.

Talking about minorities, as a member of a minority I think that other things should and could be done to improve the minority position in this part of the country. I would be failing in my duty if I did not underline these. Let me say also that these questions involve disagreement between various Churches. I belong to a Church to which the majority of people do not belong. I respect their right to hold different views from mine, and I know they respect my views if they differ from theirs. I am very heartened that many of us now worship together on occasions in our churches or in their churches. There has been a great coming together in the last five to ten years.

One of the most significant things to have happened in inter-Church relations was made public at Christmas when a group of theologians from the world-wide Anglican Church and the Roman Catholic Church, officially appointed by both Churches, hammered out an agreement in perhaps the most sensitive area, that of the interpretation of the Eucharist. It is very pleasant to be able to record that one of the most prominent theologians, in fact, the co-chairman, was Dr. McAdoo, who is Bishop of Ossory. The conclusions that these theologians came to was that in many of the areas where I had been taught and where other Senators had been taught we differed completely, our differences in fact were purely matters of interpretation. They concluded that basically our beliefs were precisely the same. That, maybe, has not sunk in in this country as much as it has sunk in elsewhere because we went through a period when one group of people was taught how different it was from the others.

If we take the lesson from these theologians our beliefs are a great deal more similar than we have been led to think up to this. I should like to think that this would spur the Irish Churches to get together to talk about the serious and sensitive areas which cause divisions. Rather than the Government going to various Church leaders to consult them, the Irish Churches should get together and then come to the Government and have some agreed policy on these sensitive areas, or at least work towards one.

Of course, the sensitive areas include the constitutional one, the educational one and the area which deals with family morality. If the Churches got together they would find that they had a great deal more common ground on these things than is popularly supposed or is popularly written up in the Press or is popularly put forward in the less theological journals. There is a great deal of common ground. The Churches should get together. It is they who should do this. It would be much more of a contribution to a solution to our national problems than the Church of Ireland and the Roman Catholic Church getting together on the problem of alcoholism. Everybody agrees that alcoholism is evil, but get going on family planning and see what can be worked out on that. Get going on the problem of education and of who should control it.

The Churches will find that they have a great deal more in common. After all, we are both basically going in the same direction and we hope that our paths will converge somewhere before the end. This is something which the Churches ought to do which would make a tremendous contribution to life in this country. Whatever one says about political divisions in the North and about the problem not being a religious one, there is a religious basis to our division. The sooner the Churches get together on the serious issues which divide us the better.

I shall briefly discuss the educational position. I think that the Churches would decide that they should have less control of education. I do not think that bishops anywhere, of any denomination, should have automatic places on the governing bodies of schools. The people who should run schools in this country are the Government representatives, the representatives of the teachers and the teaching Orders, because they are the professional people involved, and the parents. Soon we will develop into having student representation on these bodies. but these are the people who should be running education.

I should like to see education development, becoming interdenominational. Education will not become nonsectarian in the sense that it will be entirely out of the hands of religious bodies. This will not happen in this country. I want to see genuine participation, and the recent problems of the community schools programme have arisen because there was not this genuine participation and many people have felt there was something sinister going on behind all this. This was felt very strongly in the North when I was up there three or four weeks ago. Several Northern politicians spoke to me about this and said, "What about your community schools?" I replied that as far as I could see the situation was not as it should be.

The Churches could agree on this. The people who should have the say are the religious orders who are specifically involved and have given their time and their service to education in Ireland over the years and not the bishops who are not professional educators. The religious orders do the work. Then we have other teachers, parents, pupils and the representatives from the Department of Education. This is the way I should like to see our education system developing. I should like the Government to produce a White Paper giving us some idea of overall direction in educational administration and educational development. This would set a lot of the fears at rest. There is much common ground, provided we face the problem fairly and squarely.

While discussing this problem of getting the Churches together, I should point out that there are certain divisive factors in Irish society which come about through our different religious views, and my problem is to get people to discuss these problems.

The most difficult and divisive factor is not a matter of legislation, it is the ne temere decree affecting mixed marriages, and the sooner the Churches tackle that the better for everybody. This is a tremendous stumbling block to unity and it is one of the things the Northern people keep on referring to. It affects every member of the minority living in the South, where there is a 95 to 5 per cent ratio. Since I am a bachelor, my chances of getting married to one of my own persuasion are one in 19, which are pretty low, so I am affected by this like everybody else.

It was the Chief Whip of the main Opposition party in the Seanad who said to me when I remarked on this that he felt I would be doing a considerable service to Irish womankind if I entered a monastery. I do not agree with him but the ne temere decree should be tackled at once. These minority problems are not to be tackled purely and simply because the Northern people want us to do so. They are injustices that exist here and they have been highlighted by the Northern situation, and we should look at them and examine them closely.

Turning to the North and the tragic drama which is being enacted there, I agree with many of the sentiments that have been put forward in this House in particular those of Senator Lyons in which he totally rejected the use of force. I should like to ask those who advocate the use of force do they really think that force will bring a truly united Ireland. We must work together. The superhuman effort referred to by Senator Kelly earlier in the debate is what is required.

The churches could do more than they are doing. As has been said, we must bring pressure on the Westminister Government to initiate the political changes which are a forerunner to a solution of the problem. I should like to place on the record of this House an attempt which was made earlier this year by the six Independent University Senators to influence opinion in Westminister. I am not sure whether it influenced opinion in Westminister very much but at least it was an attempt in the right direction. And today we Independent Senators would stand by this letter which we sent to Members of the House of Commons and the House of Lords in Westminister and to the Members of the House of Commons and the Senate in Stormont. The letter dated 30th August, 1971, read:

We, the representatives in the Irish Senate of Dublin University and of the National University of Ireland, express to our fellow parliamentarians at Westminster and Stormont our deep concern and apprehension at the worsening situation in Northern Ireland.

While military measures may be necessary to contain violence they must be accompanied by appropriate political action if bloodshed is to be ended and a peaceful solution found. The majority of the Roman Catholic Community has now lost confidence in the present administration, and no lasting peace or real security can obtain while such a large section of the population is governed without its consent.

We appeal, therefore, to all members of both Houses at Westminster and Stormont to recognise the need for political initiatives leading to improved relations in Northern Ireland. None of the reforms effected so far has ensured proper participation by the minority. A system of government is required which is broadly acceptable to both sections of the community. Extremists would then be isolated by removing from them the support of moderate people, and harmony and order could be restored. The grim alternative is the escalation of sectarian strife to the dimensions of a civil war.

As independent university senators, elected by the postal votes of 38,000 Irish graduates many of whom are resident in the United Kingdom, we reiterate our insistence on a political solution to the problems of Northern Ireland. The responsibility for bringing this about lies on each member of the parliaments involved. The gravity of the situation demands that this responsibility be shirked no longer.

Since that letter was written I do not think the situation has changed sufficiently for any of us to say that the sentiments it contains are not the sentiments which should be put forward now. There is general agreement, I think, as to what moves should be made. We must have an administration in Northern Ireland which incorporates those people who have eventual Irish unity as their aim.

The Unionist war cry for many years has been that those people could not be included in the Cabinet or other positions of real power. That has been seen to be one of the great causes of the division. It will need amendments to the Government of Ireland Act at Westminister and I feel that any amendment to the Government of Ireland Act at Westminister would result in a general election in Northern Ireland and I should hope that the amendment would involve instituting proportional representation in the North. This would give a much fairer representation to the various minority groups.

There are interesting minority groups in the North. The Alliance Party have interesting ideas. We know a great deal about the SDLP. The Democratic Unionists have very interesting ideas. Sometimes they appear to put forward rather conservative views, but in a debate in Westminster just before Christmas on the Irish problem the Rev. Ian Paisley put forward most interesting views from the point of view of anybody from the South. I attended that debate and I found his views particularly interesting. He said he would be prepared to look at the South provided that Constitutional changes were made, provided the South gave the true impression that Rome rule was not the rule we suffered from.

We could do more to further this. I felt most encouraged to hear someone who is the leader of a large Protestant working-class group make these remarks even though he appears later on to have retracted them. The very fact that he made these remarks at all was most significant. We should not ignore the contributions made by the Democratic Unionist Party. A general election with proportional representation in the North could easily see a change in Government which would be the first step towards attaining an administration there which could work together with the administration here. Any solution to the Northern problem involves separate Governments for many years. We would be foolish to think otherwise.

Let me turn from the North and from the problems of our political life to some other topics with which I should like to deal briefly. I should like to discuss our foreign affairs policy. I am not an expert in this field but certain things have struck me very forcibly since I was elected to this House approximately a year ago. Before the Irish involvement in the Congo the Irish delegation to the United Nations were playing an extremely positive and interesting role in world affairs and we were exerting our independence in a very useful and constructive way. Many of the most interesting ideas put forward in the United Nations at that time had their origins in very forward thinking by the Irish delegation.

After our political involvement in the Congo, there was more or less a complete withdrawal from this role. We turned about. This, to me, rather gave the impression that we had got our fingers burned in the Congo episode and we were going to bury ourselves in a hole in the ground and wait until the situation cooled down. This is a very sad situation; we are just barely beginning to emerge. I would urge the Minister for Foreign Affairs very strongly, now that he has sorted out the EEC negotiations successfully, to turn his attention to our role in the UN. He would need to do this quickly because my feeling is that we will be in a much less independent position vis-á-vis the UN when we enter the EEC. We will be much more susceptible to pressure from our fellow EEC members, one of whom will be Britain.

We have not always agreed with Britain in the UN and that was a jolly good thing. Nor should we always be trailing after the US into the same lobby. This is important. We want to make our foreign affairs policy independent and positive and to do this rapidly. I am particularly pleased in this respect to see that an Embassy will be opening in Moscow in the near future. I should like to see this idea extending. We can only do good by developing relations with the Iron Curtain countries. It is a role we can play strongly and it will help in the general solution of the European problem.

Let me pay a tribute to the work done by our Embassy officials, those based in Dublin and those working abroad. I have been privileged to visit the Irish Embassies in Washington, Lagos, our EEC Embassy in Brussels and The Hague during the past year and I have been struck by the high quality of our Ambassadorial staffs. They consist of people who are doing a tremendous job. Any backing up we can give them is a real investment because they are the sort of people who can have a great influence on our economics, our tourist trade, our cultural exchange to these countries asd on all aspects of Irish life.

We need to recognise the job that the Department of Foreign Affairs is doing in this respect. One small way in which I can help to back up the work being done by the Department of Foreign Affairs is by urging that the Government do not skimp in their maintenance, development and repair, minor things often, of the Embassies. If we have an Embassy which is half as good as the French Embassy in Nigeria then we will be looked on by many Nigerians as a country which is a good deal less than half as good as France. We must maintain our standards and any expenditure here is a worthwhile investment. I should like to urge on the Government that the Embassies be maintained because I got the impression that the minor repairs were not always been done in some of these places.

It is important first of all that the Embassies be houses which are suitable. After all, an Ambassador will hold a dinner party probably once a week for maybe ten to 20 people. These will be people who are interested in developing relations with Ireland. This is the way things are done. It is of vital importance that he has an Embassy suitable for carrying out this sort of entertainment. The people I met were not the type of people who would go off on a skite on taxpayers' money. All of them were dedicated officials and they knew the importance of their jobs. They knew the tremendous impact their work could have and would have on the situation back home. I should like to pay a tribute to them and their Department and say we should spend some more time thinking about our role abroad at the moment. Before we get ourselves finally buried in the EEC, we should work out very clearly what our overall foreign policy is.

While discussing foreign policy, I should like to say that I was particularly pleased last year to be involved in the early attempts to set up a voluntary service organisation overseas which would be a representative Irish organisation. As people will have realised from a broadcast by Dr. T.K. Whitaker, one of the guiding lights of this group, proposals for this have been made and placed before the Government. I would ask the Government to look at those proposals very sympathetically because it is a very important way in which we can contribute to Third World development and, indeed, contribute to the development of our younger people.

Let me state the aims the organisation has outlined for itself. Before I do so let me say that it is a representative organisation which cuts across and includes representatives from all the present organisations which are already doing missionary or other work abroad. The aims of the organisation are:

(b) to ascertain the priority needs, present and prospective, of less developed countries in terms of personal skills;

(c) to help to meet these needs by selecting persons with the required skills and aptitudes and sponsoring their services overseas;

(d) to co-ordinate arrangements of other sponsoring agencies sharing the same objective;

(e) to evoke general interest in personal service overseas...

(f) to arrange for suitable preliminary training of volunteers...

(g) to receive State and other finance...

(h) to maintain contact with those working in the field...

(i) to protect the interests of workers overseas in relation to the employment to which they will be returning, to seek recognition by employers of the value of service overseas...

This is a very worthy cause it will not result in a great strain on the Exchequer because the finance involved is minimal in terms of overseas development. I would urge the Government to give it their utmost sympathetic consideration because it is an area in which we can do a tremendous amount of good.

In conclusion, I should like to refer briefly to the sad lack of legislation with teeth to deal with the problems of conservation and preservation of the environment in this country. This is an area which could have been dealt with by Private Members' legislation. I notice—and this has something to do with what I said earlier—that there has been a Bill on river pollution on the Order Paper of the other House for some considerable time. Nothing seems to have been done about it and while the Bill remains on the Order Paper the rivers are getting more and more polluted. That Bill covers only one aspect of conservation and I think we need a much more comprehensive deal for conservation so far as legislation is concerned. Our environmental problem will become more acute in the future.

I should like to refer briefly to two specific problems in which I am interested. They are problems which resulted in considerable public discussion and controversy. Groups such as An Taisce have made proposals on them and I would urge the bodies involved to look carefully at the priorities in order to find the best solution. The problems I refer to are the building of a new arts block in TCD, which really derived from the proposal to raise the student numbers by 50 per cent and which on a very small campus with little room to expand is a very big step to take; and the building of a smelter on Little Island in Cork Harbour. I feel both these proposals should be examined extremely critically by all the interests involved before any final irrevocable decision is taken. Both of them could have considerable consequences which should be looked into and foreseen before they are finally decided on.

My last point has to do with the Department of Education's newest baby, the National Institute for Higher Education in Limerick, which is about to be established. There has been controversy over this institute but I think it will be a tremendous success if it is carefully handled. It has acquired the services of a splendid director and has obtained a beautiful site, along half a mile of the banks of the Shannon, with a lovely old house which has been tastefully decorated to form the centre-piece of the new institute.

I would plead with the Department of Education to look at this institute with favour. It has great potential if our approach to it is right. The Department should have a sympathetic approach to it, giving the director and the governing body the flexibility needed to create something completely new in order that it can play its proper role in higher education in this country. I know the institute will get the support of all the citizens in the Limerick area and in the south generally.

First of all, I want to refer to something which I regard as an anomaly in the realm of our social services. I find that a female employed in domestic service or in agriculture must have ten years' stamps paid up on her national health card before she becomes entitled to obtain any unemployment benefit. On the other hand, her sister who works in a factory is entitled to qualify for unemployment benefit when she has 12 months' stamps paid up. This is a matter which has probably been overlooked for some years by the Department of Social Welfare. I raise it now because I can see no valid reason why this situation should be allowed to persist.

I should like to stress this matter very strongly because, as a Senator in a rural constituency, I am frequently approached by women who are caught by this anomaly. In the coming years dairying will become more important to the southern counties than it is at present and a greater number of girls will be engaged in the dairying industry. I believe such girls are entitled to the same unemployment benefits as their sisters working in industry. If girls have to wait ten years to become eligible for unemployment benefit, very few of them will qualify because more than likely most of them will marry before they have ten years' stamps.

Senator West made reference to unity among the Christian Churches in this country. This is a subject to which I have given some thought recently. Although I do not subscribe to all the points Senator West made in this regard, I believe we have adopted hard and traditional attitudes on both sides of the religious fence. These attitudes, I believe, will not be very easily broken down. It we attempt too much too quickly it may do a lot more harm than good. However, if we are ever to achieve a united Ireland I believe that these traditional attitudes must be changed. The only way to bring about this change is to promote and encourage, to the greatest degree possible, the type of interdenominational prayer and service which has been initiated recently. The idea of Christian prayer between all denominations together in one place of worship is basic to the whole concept of a united Ireland in these days. It should not be thrown lightly aside but should be given a good deal of consideration by the appropriate people who organise these interdenominational prayer meetings.

I should now like to refer to the Estimate on Agriculture this year, which is £72.8 million. This includes £36 million for prices for agricultural goods of one kind or another; it includes £22 million for production bonuses and development aids, and £7 million for agricultural education and the advisory services.

First of all, we must realise that agriculture, like every other industry, is subject to inflationary trends within the economy. These cannot be easily passed on by the agricultural community to the consumer. Other sectors can put up their prices but the agricultural community are unable to do so. Because of this, the level of agricultural income will be, and has been as long as I can remember, directly related to the amount of subvention and subsidy which the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries are prepared to make towards agriculture. Our agricultural products must be sold on the export markets, very often at prices less than the cost of production.

Of course, the British market has been the biggest market for these products. While she is our biggest customer, we cannot regard her as being a very good one. British policy in the past and up to now has been one of buying low-cost food at the cheapest price they could get it in the world market. To a great extent this has bedevilled Irish agriculture because it is our greatest outlet for agricultural products. We support agriculture heavily by subsidy and subvention and aids of various kinds. This is permissible because we now have a total export of agricultural goods of over £200 million, which enables us to keep a large portion of our population employed. As well as being employed on the land a very large percentage of our people are also employed in the food processing industry and in other service industries related to agriculture.

Recently, I heard an expert saying that, while in Britain 4 per cent of the gross national product was agricultural goods, 24 per cent of the economy was helped along by this 4 per cent of gross national product. I think that the same lecturer stated that 70 per cent of the population of Ireland was employed as a result of our agricultural output. I do not know if that figure is too high, but it appears to me that a large number of our people are employed indirectly by our agricultural industry.

The importance of our entry into Europe cannot be overemphasised, particularly having regard to the poor markets which we have experienced in the past for our agricultural goods. When we enter Europe our farmers will participate in an agricultural policy which will ensure, in so far as it is possible to ensure, market stability for our products. It will also endeavour to ensure that farmers, both big and small, will have a fair standard of living in keeping with the standard of living of the rest of the community. This benefit for agriculture will be ours in so far as we are able to maximise the output from our farms. This is the whole problem which we come up against on entry to Europe. We will have better prices than at present. Inevitably, I presume, costs will be inclined to catch up on these prices, but in the interim we shall have to ensure that we maximise farm output. In this way many farms that are at present considered non-viable will be able to make a living and to continue to do so for many years as a result of of entry into Europe.

There is much controversy and disquiet created by those who say that small farms have no place in Europe. I believe that our small farmers will be far better off in Europe than they can ever be outside it. We will be able to get a better price inside Europe for every commodity that we produce, but it is essential to use all our skills and all the expertise and techniques which have been developed by the Agricultural Institute in order to increase output. In this way a great number of these small farms will survive and stay viable. We have no small farm problem here that is not similar to that of every country in Europe. Figures show this. In fact, figures issued recently prove that we have the second highest average-size farm in the proposed ten countries of the Community. The fact that we have soil and climatic conditions here which are second to none in the European Community will enable all our farmers to stay viable. To tell our farmers that there is no place for them in Europe is sheer poppycock.

There are certain proposals for the structural reform of farms which were adopted by the Council of Europe in March, 1971. These reforms apparently differ substantially from the original Mansholt Plan which was published in 1968 in so far as they carry no element of compulsion to move farmers out of farming. The proposals adopted by the Council of Europe are designed to help those small farmers who want to stay in farming to become viable. Those who want to move out of farming will get financial assistance, education and training to help them to move to better jobs. At the present time in this country there are approximately 9,000 people a year leaving agriculture. Those who oppose entry to the Common Market tend to gloss over this question and do not point out the numbers that are leaving the land. This trend is not peculiar to Ireland; it is a worldwide phenomenon. Those who leave farming in this country have no training or education to enable them to undertake any other type of work. Inevitably they go in for menial jobs and take lower rates of wages for them.

It is far better to recognise that we have this problem here and to endeavour to deal with it in a planned and realistic way than allow it to snowball into a serious social problem, which could very easily happen.

In regard to our entry to the Common Market it has been said that the aids, incentives, subsidies and so on which are paid to agriculture at this time will no longer be necessary, but for the first five years after entry it will be necessary for us to give certain aids and incentives to specific aspects of agriculture in order to make smaller farms viable and help them to carry on until we benefit from the full European prices. The Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries has given an assurance that whatever aids and incentives can be given within the ambit of the Community's rules and regulations will be channelled towards assisting smaller and potentially viable farms in this country to make the most of their resources. I believe that this assurance is not lightly given by the Minister and it should give confidence to those small farmers who think that the Common Market may pose problems for them.

In regard to farm products it is traditional that protein foods, that is, milk, milk products, meat, store cattle and bacon, are produced predominantly on our smaller farms. The carbohydrate foods, grain and so on, are largely produced on the bigger farms, the reason for this being that the protein foods generally command a much higher price than the carbohydrates and so enable the smaller farm to make a reasonable profit. This phenomenon has always been with us. I read about it 30 years ago, and it is as true now as it was then, that more protein foods are produced on the smaller farm than on the bigger farm. Statistics I saw recently suggest that because the small farm is usually managed by the family the mortality rate of calves, for instance, is only 4 or 5 per cent whereas it runs up to 14 or 15 per cent on the bigger farms. This in itself is a good reason for ensuring that our smaller farms keep on producing calves, milk and bacon. Milk, calf-rearing and bacon production have helped to keep most of our smaller farmers in business down through the years. Because of this, whatever increases there are in agricultural production must inevitably come from the small farms. We are producing £350 million worth of agricultural goods per annum and the greater percentage of this must come from our smaller farms. Therefore, I can see no justification for writing off our small farms, as some of our anti-Common Marketeers have done, as some sort of an anachronism, because they produce a very substantial amount of this total output of £350 million.

If we are to build up our country as a great exporter of dairy produce and meat it will be through the expertise and dedication of these small farmers. The processing and marketing of the produce of the milk, bacon and pigs must also be rationalised to the greatest extent possible. Farmers own these co-operative societies and creameries and it will be up to them to do this rationalising as soon as they can, because any inefficiency at the processing level will be paid for out of the farmer's own pocket by way of a lower price for milk.

One point I should like to comment on is the milk recording scheme which has been revitalised and is being expanded by the Department of Agriculture. The national lactation average is now about 550 gallons per cow. In 1949 it was 400 gallons per cow. There is no doubt that the better bulls must be identified so as to increase milk yields and the only way to do it is by this milk recording scheme which is being revitalised now by the Department of Agriculture.

There is a pigmeat surplus at present. The outlook for it is not clear. The price of beasts within the Community will go very high and this may create customer resistance which may in turn create a greater off-take of bacon from our shops. Our pig industry must be rationalised. The factories are being rationalised at present but the industry itself must also be rationalised at production level. The way that it can be done is by encouraging the establishment of more fattening co-operatives throughout the country. These in turn would buy their products from the small farmer. They would contract with the small farmer to produce pigs for them and they would give them a guaranteed price over a three or five-year period, and this would help to stabilise pig numbers. In this way the factories would at least know where they were going, know what they were doing and know what numbers to expect instead of at this moment having huge numbers at one period and two or three years later having no pigs at all.

Gaeltarra Éireann have interested themselves in a pig fattening venture in the Cork Gaeltacht area. This is an interesting development which ought to be encouraged. It works along the principles which I have outlined. I hope the experience which will be gained by Gaeltarra in this particular venture will be of assistance to them in making up their minds or in helping them to make up their minds to establish other pig fattening units in other Gaeltacht areas.

Dúirt an Seanadóir Cranitch sa Tigh seo seactain ó shin go raibh hobby-horse éigin ag gach duine anseo agus go rabhamar go léir ag marcaíocht ar na "hobby-horses" ar gach seans a bhfuaramar. Tá orm a admháil go bhfuil hobby-horse éigin agamsa freisin. I want to elaborate a little on the hobby-horse and then I will conclude.

I have referred to the contribution which agriculture is making to the economy. What is not so fully recognised is that this contribution could be far greater. A Macra na Feirme farm management scheme started in 1959 produced a winning farmer whose average output from his farm was three times the national average. In 1969 another farmer won whose average output was six times the national average. An expert whom I recently heard speak stated that where we have 6,000,000 cattle in this country we ought to have 10,000,000. I believe he is correct. Statistics from the OECD countries and also from studies of agriculture in the West of Ireland by Scully show that farm output drops as the age of the farmer increases. I suppose it is understandable that many farmers postpone for as long as possible the inevitable day of passing on their holdings to their sons or other heirs. There is no man who will willingly exchange the security which a small holding gives him for the privations of a somewhat penurious retirement in a corner of the kitchen. Very often the son grows old waiting for the farm to pass to him and when eventually the transfer takes place the enthusiasm and optimism of youth has very often passed him by.

The Department of Finance have designed or improvised through our legislation some pressures which are designed to endeavour to get farmers to transfer farm land from father to son earlier than usual. These pressures have worked well, particularly in the case of the bigger farmer, but in the case of the smaller farmers they do not apparently work so well. It is with these I am mainly concerned. Around the country we find very often that a farmer stays in possession of his farm until he reaches the age of 70 when he qualifies for the old age pension if he transfers his farm to his son. This transfer takes place far too late in the life of the son. Therefore, it seems to me at least very desirable that some additional measures should be designed to encourage farmers to transfer their farms to their sons at an earlier age while these sons are still young and enthusiastic farmers. Any scheme designed to encourage this early transfer of land would improve the productivity of the greater number of our farms and would help to increase total agricultural output. The simple and straightforward way to cater for this need is by initiating some form of pension scheme. I am not going to ask the Minister for Finance to do it but I would ask him to look at it with a kindly eye. I believe that farmers' organisations and co-operative societies should have a great influence in formulating some scheme which would help in this regard. There are schemes in existence in Europe which endeavour to do exactly what I have been suggesting. I believe that if that is done here it will improve the output from farms, as I have said, our balance of payments and the standard of living of farmers.

This has not been a happy year. We have over 80,000 people unemployed at the moment. I read in today's paper a suggestion from the Central Bank that the next round increase should be deferred. That is not so very encouraging for workers in view of the increased cost of living. We are about to take a new step in entering into Europe. Many workers in this country fear such a step. Personally, I believe it is our only hope. For too long we have been depending on Britain. That was made very clear to us during the economic war as a result of which our economy faced disaster. As I was listening to the last speaker referring to our agricultural exports I thought of figures I came across recently. Our figure for agricultural exports in 1947 was £39 million. In 1957, that figure had increased to something around £131 million. That was the result of our trade agreement. Very often in the past we have heard farmers being discredited; farmers who had cattle at that stage was described as a rancher. However, I always believed that agriculture played a very important role in our economy, and I am very glad to hear all sides of the House today make very clear their appreciation of those facts.

The Northern crisis is another serious problem. Above all we, the older generation, must make it very clear that violence is not the cure. We must consider what was the foundation of this crisis. The Treaty partitioned this country. It is well to know even at this stage that people from all sides of the House are prepared to admit that the partitioning of this country was not the work of any Irishman. In spite of that fact I think it is the duty of every Irishman, irrespective of politics, to leave no stone unturned to restore peace in this country.

I should like to refer to the Land Commission in passing. The present system of land distribution in this country is far from what it should be, in my opinion. The regulations as they stand prohibit anybody outside a mile of the farm concerned from qualifying for land. As a result of that regulation very often people who are not even suitable or who are not in any way showing any potential of being in a position to use land to the best advantage get it. I believe that that regulation should not be in existence. Very often you could get a man who lived a mile or two miles away from a farm who would have a good potential as a farmer and who would be deprived because of the fact that he was over a mile from the farm.

We have another regulation which affects a man who has no land, and if he is living within a mile he qualifies for what the Land Commission describe as accommodation holding of five acres. Now that we are about to go into Europe I cannot see what use five acres would be to any man. Often a man would get that five acres and if he had a job in industry he would lose that job. I think five acres would not give him a living. For that reason I believe that the present system of distribution should be altered. The ceiling of five acres should be raised to 15 or 20 acres and the distance should be increased from one mile to five.

I should like to mention the free transport system. When it was first started it was a wonderful scheme. The people responsible for introducing the scheme did so with the very best intentions, but somehow now that has defeated the very purpose for which it was started. We have an inflexible regulation which has created bitterness within the families of certain areas. I have seen buses practically empty having to pass children on a bad morning. I know how hard it must have been for the driver to pass those children, but the regulation did not permit him to take the children.

I appeal to the Minister and his Department to alter this inflexible regulation and as far as possible to have some conference in each county or to move into an area to discuss it with CIE, the teachers and, if possible the parents. This would not bring extra taxation, but it could bring a wonderful service. I believe it was what the late Mr. O'Malley, God rest his soul, had intended when he died. I sincerely hope that the Department will in the near future review the present system.

As there are no other speakers, has Senator Brugha any proposals to make?

I understand that it is agreed to adjourn until 10.30 a.m. tomorrow to enable the Minister to reply.

It is agreed.

Debate adjourned.
The Seanad adjourned at 9.35 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 27th January, 1972.
Barr
Roinn