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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 17 Sep 1976

Vol. 85 No. 7

Criminal Law Bill, 1976: Report Stage.

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 8—

(i) line 10, to substitute "a unit" for "members";

(ii) delete lines 13 to 16 inclusive and substitute "a unit of the Defence Forces commanded by an officer or a non-commissioned officer";

(iii) lines 17 and 18, delete "a member of the Defence Forces" and substitute "the officer or non-commissioned officer";

(iv) line 21, delete "A member" and substitute "An officer or non-commissioned officer";

(v) lines 32 and 35, after "search", to insert "or order a member of the unit under his command to search";

(vi) line 41, delete "A member of the Defence Forces" and substitute "The said officer or non-commissioned officer";

(vii) line 49, delete "a member of the Defence Forces" and substitute "the said officer or non-commissioned officer or any member of his unit".

There are two purposes in this amendment. This section is probably drafted from a Garda point of view rather than from an Army point of view. The Army would understand a request drafted in the way which I have suggested rather than in the way in which the section stands at the moment. The Garda are accustomed to acting as individuals whereas the Army, generally speaking, acts as a unit. Consequently, the request should be for a unit of the Army and that does not necessarily mean a very large unit of the Army. It could be a section, which is an NCO and six men. Consequently, my amendment is a technical one. The section should be phrased in a way in which the Army would appreciate, understand and act on. That is the way in which the Army operates as a unit.

Of course, this is another indication that the Army is being used in an unusual way. The Army thinks in relatively big numbers. It thinks in terms of units. The things it normally is asked to do it does as a unit, and being asked to do this kind of thing is somewhat unusual for them. Nevertheless, the way in which they normally operate should be preserved and the Army should be asked to place a unit, an officer or NCO and unit at the disposal of the Garda. The Army would understand the request better this way and would be happier to act in this way. It has another entirely different aspect and that is from the point of view of the public. The public might be, and are, slightly apprehensive of the idea of a member of the Defence Forces acting in the way that is envisaged in the section. They would be unhappy that a soldier acting alone and apparently without being under the control of an NCO or officer should be permitted to arrest a person or should be permitted to stop and search a car and so on. No matter how high their regard is for the Defence Forces generally, people have the idea, possibly unfounded, that an individual soldier is not the kind of person who should be given the powers which are contained in this section. From the point of view that the Army would rather get a request in this way and act in this way and from the point of view of the public who would be rather apprehensive of one individual soldier appearing to act on his own, this section would have been improved if it was drafted in the way in which I suggest.

I take Senator Ryan's point but his apprehensions are not justified nor would there be similar apprehensions on the part of the public with regard to individual members of private rank carrying out the powers under this section. We have to bear in mind that the request goes from the Garda to the Army. At the moment the request is to make members of the Defence Forces available. Senator Ryan suggests that that should be changed to make a unit of the Defence Forces available. What does a unit mean? Does it mean a unit in the ordinary sense of a group of men or would it have to be a unit in the military sense, that is a section, a platoon or company? What Senator Ryan has in mind is that it should be a unit in the military sense. That imposes constraints because the request could be met by 15 men whereas a section has only ten men. Two units would have to be sent out and the request would be for one unit. It could lead to difficulties. If the request is for members it is then for the Defence Forces to decide the appropriate number of members to deal with it, whether it be a section, two sections, a section-and-a-half or half a platoon, or a whole platoon. When a request is for members, the Defence Forces would be the experts in deciding on the response to the request. It is better to leave it flexible.

The other portion of his amendment would give legal power only to an officer or an NCO and would not allow a private soldier to conduct a search or carry out an arrest unless he was subsequently ordered to do so by the officer or NCO on the ground. This would be a restriction that would remove much of the effectiveness of this power. Each member of the Army, when on duty in this way, should have the powers given by the section. The Army is structured in a hierarchical way. If powers are to be exercised, they will be exercised by the senior man on the ground. If there is a lot to be done at the one time, the next senior man and so on would come into the picture. The powers would be carried out according to the exigencies of the situation, probably in order of seniority.

That is the way armies work and I expect them to work in that way here too. The privates will not be involved. They will essentially play a background role while the new powers are carried out by the NCOs and officers. If there is a situation where a private would have suddenly and quickly to exercise the powers he should be entitled to do so without having to wait for an order or, failing the order, find himself in danger of having effected an unlawful arrest.

The matter, as drafted, is adequate and I do not think there are any dangers to the public or any need for apprehensions. It will be a new procedure and something which we will watch very carefully. If there should be any complaint by the public as to how this is being operated or should there be any difficulties experienced by the Gardaí or Army in its operation we will be back to parliament to cure those matters. I can assure Senator Ryan that the points he seeks to achieve in his amendments will be matters for consideration all the time. They will be kept under review and should there be need for amendment we can come back to the Houses with them.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Bill received for final consideration.
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