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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 21 Jun 1978

Vol. 89 No. 10

Agricultural Produce (Meat) (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, 1978: Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This Bill would amend and extend certain provisions of the Agricultural Produce (Fresh Meat) Acts and the Pigs and Bacon Acts, both of which codes are concerned with regulating our meat export trade.

The contents of the Bill can be considered under four heads: First, it provides for the introduction of fresh meat classification at meat export premises. Secondly, it would replace the existing absolute ban on the breeding or keeping of coloured pigs with a more flexible arrangement. Thirdly, it provides for the collection of veterinary inspection fees at meat export plants on a monthly basis (instead of half-yearly, as at present) with effect from 1 July 1978. Fourthly, it provides for the possible employment of detention officers at meat export plants, subject to certain consultation with the Veterinary Council of Ireland.

Sections 2 and 3 of the Bill would enable the Minister for Agriculture by regulations to introduce meat classificatio tion on a mandatory basis. For the time being such regulations would apply only to carcase beef for export markets. In our circumstances, where we export more than 80 per cent of our beef, the classification of carcases is bound to benefit all sections of the industry, and in particular it should convey the preferences of overseas customers back, through the exporters, to the producers of the cattle.

The reaction of the various interests concerned since the Minister for Agriculture announced his intention of introducing a beef carcase classification scheme has been very encouraging. I think there is a general awareness that we are not producing the right kind of cattle for continental markets in particular. Our cattle and beef industry is worth over £500 million a year in exports and the benefits to be gained from increased prices in any industry of this size are obvious. We know that the preference in most exports markets is for a leaner type of animal than we have traditionally produced, and the beef carcase classification scheme will highlight this and will help to convince producers that better breeding and husbandary policies will yield significantly better returns.

The necessary preliminary work is in progress on the introduction of the scheme which it is hoped to have in operation early next year. It will apply to all cattle—steers, heifers, sows and bulls—slaughtered at meat export premises. It will be operated by specially trained classification officers employed by the Department of Agriculture and will be financed by the Exchequer. Classification has two main elements— confrontation and far score—and we envisage seven sub-categories of each, which is the type of scheme required to cover both the type of cattle produced here now and the kind we are likely to produce in the future. Other data—sex, age and weight—will be included in the information fed back to producers. The sole duty of classification officers will be to determine the conformation class and the fat class of every animals slaughtered at the meat export premises. There will be adequate supervision to ensure that standards are uniform at all plants. The price to be paid for cattle by the meat factory will remain, as it has always been, a matter between the factory and the producer, and the classification officer will have no function whatsoever in determining prices.

The scheme will relate to beef carcases and not to boneless beef. This is because, at the carcase stage, differences in conformation and fat cover are more easily observed and overseas customers can contract with confidence on the basis of classification. Boneless beef, on the other hand, is a different situation and introduces other elements, such as butchering skill and the degree of fat trimming, so it is best to leave meat factories and their customers to agree on their own specifications in this area.

Under the Pigs and Bacon (Amendment) Act, 1956 there is an absolute ban on the keeping or breeding of pigs of a colour other than all white. The present Bill would remove the absolute ban and the importation of coloured pigs can be allowed in accordance with regulations made by the Minister for Agriculture. There are no plans to allow the importation of coloured pigs at the present time, but the provision gives the Minister the option to allow their importation if he considers it justified at any time.

Sections 5, 6 and 7 would amend the various sections of earlier Acts relating to the collection of veterinary inspection fees at meat export plants by allowing for the collection of the fees on a monthly basis. The intention is to allow for a more regular flow of funds from the inspection fees. The receipts from these fees only cover part of the cost of the service. Under the present arrangement of half-yearly collection it is well into the new year before the fees for the preceding July are collected, which is a wholly unjustifiable situation nowadays. It should be emphasised that this provision does not entail any increase in the level of inspection fees: it simply requires the factories to pay them over rather more quickly than they must do at present. Since they must make provision for these fees from the time they buy the cattle this seems to me to involve no hardship.

Section 8 of the Bill, which relates to post mortem inspection by detention officers, is an enabling provision. Veterinary inspectors at meat export plants have a wide range of duties which, since our accession to the EEC, is becoming even wider. Throughput is increasing and new products are being developed. In these circumstances the role of the veterinary inspector has to be reappraised to ensure that routine work does not interfere with his performance of more important duties. The function of a detention officer would be to relieve the veterinary inspector of some of the routine inspection of carcases and viscera and allow for the better deployment of veterinary resources. The detention officers would have to be specially trained for the purpose, and section 8 requires the Minister to consult fully with the veterinary council regarding their training and qualifications. They would, of course, work under the supervision of the veterinary inspectors. Most other member states of the EEC, the USA and New Zealand use detention officers. As I have stated, this is an enabling provision and I do not want anyone to jump to conclusions about it. There are no plans to employ detention officers at the present time, and there will be frank and open consultation with the veterinary profession at the appropriate time should such plans emerge in the future.

I will be most interested to hear the views of Senators on the proposals contained in the Bill.

We on this side welcome the Bill. There are a few questions I want to raise on it, but, as I say, in so far as it provides for the classification of our fresh meat exports it is a necessary and desirable development. The Minister has pointed out that 80 per cent of our fresh meat is for export and that it represents an industry that is worth about £500 million per annum. It is a growing industry and one which a considerable number of people, producers, workers at processing level, people at transportation and shipping, have an interest in seeing that it succeeds. It is therefore essential that we would take whatever steps are necessary to ensure that we can compete effectively in the market place. This is why I say we regard this decision to proceed to the classification of our fresh meat as necessary and desirable.

Basically, what I want an assurance on is that we can gain the confidence of the producers in this scheme. Looking at it initially, it would appear to be aimed first of all at the market place, at satisfying the customers. But if this scheme is to succeed we will have to ensure that we have the confidence of the producers, and the Minister has told us that it is the intention that the results of each lot of animals slaughtered and classified in our meat factories would in due course, arrive back to the producer to enable him to understand the quality of his cattle and to encourage him to aim at the quality required.

I understand from the Minister's speech that it is proposed to have seven grades for confirmation and seven grades for fat measurement. Having read the debate in the other House, I understand that there are six grades in Europe and that this being the main market we are aiming at it would be necessary to attempt to indicate what exactly our seven grades are or how they correspond to the six grades that are likely to exist in the European market. I should be obliged if the Minister would spell out more clearly how and to what extent the seven grades that we are establishing, in relation to conformation and fat measurement, will compare with the six grades that exist in Europe.

The Minister also indicated in his speech that he does not expect the grading that the inspectors of the Department will arrive at in the factory premises will be directly reflected in the price the producer will receive from the factory. He expects the arrangement for the cattle supplied to a factory will be a matter between the producer and the meat factory concerned. I do not accept that. I believe we must accept as valid that if it does not apply in the beginning it will only be a question of a relatively short time until there will be only one set of classifications. These are the ones we are talking about.

The Minister has also stated that there is a necessity to encourage producers to breed a better type of animal. He has emphasised that the demand will be for animals of a continental breed type and that this grading will encourage the producers to aim at producing a greater number of animals of continental breed. There are a few points that I want to make on that, but first I will revert to the grades of classification. There are seven conformation grades and seven grades based on fat measurement. I believe it is vital if this scheme is to succeed that there will be uniformity of judging or of decisions with regard to these categories of grading. I have no doubt that we will get uniformity where the grading for fat measurement is concerned, but the judging of confirmation is a visual judgment and I want to be assured that steps will be taken not alone in the training of the inspectors involved but that there will be regular consultation among the people who are operating these schemes in the factories to ensure that there is uniformity of grading in the field of conformation. This has to be done on a visual basis and it is possible that the opinion of one individual in a meat plant in one part of the country would differ from the judgment of a similar inspector in a meat plant in another part of the country.

I accept it is desirable that our producers would be encouraged to breed beef animals of the continental breed types and that producers would be encouraged in every way to take this step, because I am personally convinced that we have to work in that direction. I would ask the Minister that when the opportunity presents itself, he would have a look at the breeding policy of the Department with special reference to the Livestock Breeding Act, 1925, to determine whether in view of the objectives we must be aiming at in the years ahead, that Act and what flows from it are circumstances which apply now.

There is one other point I should like to raise in regard to the inspection and classification of fresh meat at the meat plants. There is nothing in the Minister's speech which has satisfied me on the fear that I hold here. I refer to the desirability of providing an opportunity for the producers to see the inspection being carried out. I am tying that request in with the opinion I expressed earlier, that for the scheme to succeed it is necessary to have the confidence of the producers. As I said earlier, the main matter in the Bill is classification of our freshmeat.

I want to come on to the question of the detention officers, and I find it an unusual description. To me it is a new grade, a new job and a new category of officer. I emphasised a few moments ago the necessity to have uniform judgment on conformation. I believe it is desirable that in the training and supervision of these officers uniformity would be regarded as of prime importance.

One of the remaining points that are now covered in the Bill is the removal of the ban on importation of coloured pigs. The Minister has stated that there is no immediate intention to import such pigs. I accept that, but I welcome the removal of the ban. I believe it is a positive step and that it is coming at the right time, because there is a growing volume of opinion that there are breeds of pigs other than white which have a better capacity to produce leaner meat more effectively than the breed of pigs we have had in this country for some time. I would emphasise that when the time comes for the importation of pigs other than white pigs the Department should ensure that import licences are made available only to people who the Department are confident will do a reasonably effective jobs and on whose premises the progress of these animals can be supervised and monitored.

The final point I want to refer to is veterinary fees. Though I have no basic objection to what is proposed here. I expect that the payment of these bills will be passed back to the producers. The Minister stated that it was not intended to increase these fees. I think that would be a very unnecessary step: it has not been long since there was an increase. Generally I welcome the Bill and wish it a speedy passage.

Business suspended at 7.10 p.m. and resumed at 7.25 p.m.

First of all I want to thank Senator Howard for his contribution to the Bill and for his general acceptance of the beef classification scheme as introduced. The beef carcase classification scheme will help farmers to produce the type of animal most suitable for our market abroad. The classification scheme will be designed to cover the range of cattle we produce or are likely to produce. There is not a general European scheme: the French have a scheme that caters for the animals they produce, and a number of other EEC countries also have schemes, for example, Germany and Holland, but certain other EEC countries have not got such schemes. The introduction of an EEC scheme would be a matter for the EEC Commission. The United Kingdom have a scheme with five grades for conformation and fat measurement.

Senator Howard's comparison of this scheme with the French scheme is not valid because we have to devise a scheme that caters for our own circumstances here. I should point out, however, that classification schemes are usually on the same lines but with slight differences to cater for the type of cattle in a particular country. Therefore, we will have to try to design our scheme to cater for the special type of animals we produce here.

On the question of passing back the benefits of improved quality to producers, I have to repeat that the classification officers will not have a role in fixing prices: they will simply decide that a carcase is graded R2 or L4, for example, and it will be up to the farming organisations and the factories to agree on a price structure. I do not think that either side would expect it to be otherwise. These officers will be specially trained to ensure uniformity. There will be supervisors moving from factory to factory to ensure that this uniformity is maintained.

As regards farmers coming in to see their cattle being classified, I hope that this will be the case and that the factories will encourage it. They will be quite welcome as far as our officers are concerned. However, I do not think it would be right to provide in this Bill that factories must allow this. In practice, common sense should ensure that farmers would have reasonable access.

I accept that the veterinary inspection fees were increased recently but it is reasonable to point out that these fees still do not nearly cover the cost of the services. They yield about £1.6 million while the service costs almost £3 million a year. It is, of course, absolutely essential that we get the full co-operation of all the people concerned in introducing this scheme and that we would have the confidence of the producer as well as the co-operation of the factories and others involved in the meat business, and for that reason the Department will be having full and frank consultation with all these people, including the farming organisations, to ensure that this scheme will work to the satisfaction of the trade in general.

I am grateful to the Minister for clearing a number of points. I am glad that inspection by farmers is being encouraged and that the arrangement for that will be a matter between the factory and the producer. I am also grateful for the assurance that to ensure uniformity of grading there will be supervisors travelling from factory to factory to ensure that this will apply. I am still not entirely happy—there is very little, perhaps, the Minister can do about it—that we are to have seven grades while the French are having six and the UK are having five. Inevitably there will be confusion, there is going to be failure——

The Senator may make his comments on the appropriate section during the Committee Stage.

I have almost concluded. I want to say that inevitably there will be confusion and an unsatisfactory situation.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.
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