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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Nov 1978

Vol. 90 No. 3

Local Authorities (Higher Education Grants) Bill, 1978: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of this Bill is to give legislative effect to a situation that has existed since 1974, when my predecessor in office decided to allow tenure of higher education grants at approved non-degree courses at such institutions as colleges of technology and regional technical colleges. This decision was taken in anticipation of the necessary amending legislation and, although the intention behind it was laudible, it is a matter for some regret that the relevant amendment of the Local Authorities (Higher Education Grants) Act, 1968, did not follow more expeditiously. It now falls to me to fill this lacuna in the grants legislation.

As Senators will know, the 1968 Act initiated a scheme of grants to enable eligible applicants of proven academic ability to pursue courses of university degree standard or degree equivalent standard at approved third level institutions. The academic attainment laid down for the purpose of a higher education grant is stated in terms of achievement at the leaving certificate examination. The relevant provision in the published grants schemes is that the candidate must have obtained grade C or higher grade in higher or common level papers in four or more subjects, or, alternatively, have obtained grade C or higher grade in higher or common level papers in Irish and in two other sub-or in mathematics and in two other subjects.

Since the introduction of the 1968 Act there has occurred a progressive burgeoning in the educational sphere. particularly in the technical and technological area. In the late sixties and early seventies the regional technical colleges were set up at strategic centres throughout the country. Some of these have since been extended and the extension of others is in train. These colleges provide our young people with the opportunity of acquiring appropriate qualifications in the commercial, engineering and scientific fields.

The National Council for Educational Awards was also set up on an ad hoc basis in the early seventies to provide the machinery for the validation of courses and the means of qualification. The relevant legislation to establish this council statutorily has now been introduced in Dáil Éireann. The scholarships provided by the vocational education committees were also expanded during the early seventies into a comprehensive scheme enabling recipients to proceed to certificate and diploma courses in the various disciplines and, indeed, to transfer to degree courses, if accepted. The amount of student support provided and the means test provisions to be fulfilled are the same as in the case of the higher education grants scheme. It may be that this scheme should be more widely publicised so that pupils in all second level schools who may be contemplating proceeding to regional technical colleges and the technological colleges may be fully aware of its existence and provisions. I propose to have this matter examined.

It was a logical and commendable development that the higher education grants scheme should be extended to include the regional technical colleges and the technological colleges for the purpose of tenure of grant. A wide choice of courses is thereby thrown open to grant-holders, the successful completion of which offer the student an enhanced prospect of employment in a developing economy.

There is also the consideration that the colleges provide a more local access to further education and offer a decentralised infrastructure which can draw off numbers from the city concentrations and spread the student population somewhat more evenly throughout the country. This is a desirable trend both socially and educationally. The participation of higher education grant-holders in the regional college courses will help to enhance the status of these colleges, will strengthen the input into existing courses and promote the development of variety in the options available for study.

In the year 1977-78, a total of 5,848 students held higher education grants. This figure should have been higher and would have been if the appropriate revision as to amount of grant and means test conditions had been made during the period 1973-76. Of this figure of grant-holders, 160 have exercised the 1974 option of holding their grants in non-university institutions. I anticipate that this figure will increase over the years.

I wish to recommend highly the VEC scholarships scheme which, in the year 1977-78, was providing assistance to a total of 1,658 students in the non-university area and which will continue to provide the main basis of student support in that area. Comparisons between the number of grant-holders and the number of scholarship holders may be misleading as to the extent of their impact. In the first place, the numbers attending universities are much greater as of now than those in the RTC's and the colleges of technology. Secondly, the duration of courses in the non-university third-level sector is, on average, shorter than in the case of the universities. The scholarship scheme has yet to reach its full potential and will develop according as the RTC's continue to absorb an increasing number of our third-level students.

This Bill is a non-controversial measure and was so regarded in the sympathetic and expeditious treatment which it received in the Dáil. I said there that it would provide a bridge by which higher education grant-holders may proceed to courses having a technological emphasis, thus contributing to the supply of trained personnel for our expanding industrial sector. I commend the terms of this Bill to Seanad Éireann.

I welcome the Bill and I am very pleased that the extent of its application is to give scope in relation to institutions or institutes of education other than the statutory higher education institutes as we now have them. The difficulty that obtained here in relation to grants towards higher education by local authorities has been an issue that militated very much against a farmer's son or daughter who would be the child of somebody who had a very small income and had the income assessed on the basis of the valuation of a holding. This is something that has not been redressed before. I would like the Minister to take into account, to whatever extent he can, an analysis of a more appropriate means of giving a fair and equitable proportion of scholarships, where it appears they were not given up to now, to the children of farmers.

Before the advent of VAT, or income tax to the extent to which it now applies, a man had only to sign a form indicating that his income was £X and there was no means of contradicting that or saying that he should go back again and look at it and amend it in any measure or form. That had to be accepted by the local authority. Scholarships were awarded to people with very considerable means. I do not begrudge them but very often at local council meetings difficulties arise because very wealthy people are able to obtain a scholarship to the exclusion of a poor farmer's son whose means is assessed on the basis of valuation. A farmer could owe several thousand pounds and be paying interest on it when his means are assessed. He is entirely and arbitrarily excluded.

I welcome the inclusion of standards of higher education other than the equivalent of university education. Academics were looked on as belonging to a certain class and had the standard of education necessary to enable them to enter third-level education in university. That time has now gone. Each particular profession or trade should issue a diploma and give a course of education to enable a young person to become proficient to the extent of being awarded a diploma. Such a standard should be recognised and there should be a grant process. The Minister has a very wide field to examine in this respect. If we look at the availability of technicians who will come from technical colleges or institutes of the kind referred to in the Bill, we will see that they are in very scarce supply. The achievement of professional status out of university would mean that very many of these people, if they got qualifications, could find a ready opportunity to apply themselves and get profitable employment in filling many of the vacancies that are at present filled by foreign technicians.

It is important, therefore, that when the Minister comes to give his imprimatur to the professions or services for which a diploma will be issued he should leave himself as free a hand as possible so that there would be a grant supported course towards that diploma whether it is in respect of fisheries, agriculture or building structures of every kind. In the past the small farmer's son or the poor man's son was at a disadvantage because he had nothing to show for his standard of proficiency. People who had attained academic standards, such as a degree in engineering and so on, were looked up to. Those who worked in the services sector were regarded as not having attained the same social status and as being of a lesser status. If the Minister applies himself in the way I know he can, he will provide in this Bill the means of giving every man and every woman who is proficient in a trade or craft the opportunity of holding up their heads and saying “I have my degree; I have qualified to a certain standard”. They would be given appropriate respect and would not have to take the emigrant ship without a standard of proficiency if they did have to leave the country. They would not have to train abroad or take the less lucrative and more menial jobs in another country.

I welcome the Bill and hope that when it is applied to the spheres of activity that the Minister engages in, he will leave himself power to make it more effective as time goes on.

Ar an gcéad dul síos cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Oideachais os rud é gurb é an chéad uair a bhfacamar anseo é mar Aire agus guím fad saol dó agus rath Dé ar a chuid oibre. Cuirim fáilte roimh an mBille seo. D'fhéadfá a rá, b'fhéidir, gur saghas Bille iar-chéime é toisc go gcuireann sé neart dlí agus cumhachta le rud a ghlacadh leis ceithre bhlian ó shin. Mar sin féin is maith ann é an Bille céanna agus sílim go ndéanfaidh sé an-tairbhe don aos léinn ins an triú léibhéal.

This Bill is to be highly commended. If we look at the main provision in it we can grasp what it is all about. It legislates for the substitution of the following definition for the definition of an approved institution: "Approved institution" now means:

a university, university college, or other institution of higher education in so far as it provides a course or courses of not less than two years duration, being a course or courses of which the Minister approves for the time being for the purposes of section 2 of this Act.

Times change and the functions of various types of schools at various levels must also change and take into consideration the society we are living in and the needs of that society. Recently I was reading—I like to read it now and again because in this very troubled world it brings one back to one's senses—the discourses of John Henry Newman, later Cardinal Newman. He said something that was so relevant to this Bill and the circumstances in which it comes into operation that I jotted down an extract from his Discourse No. 7 which was given about the year 1851-52.

Now this is what some great men are very slow to allow. They insist that education should be confined to some particular and narrow end and should issue on some definite work that can be weighed and measured. They argue as if everything, as well as every person, has its price and that where there had been a great outlay they have a right to expect a return in kind. This is what they call making education and instruction useful, and indeed, utility becomes their watchword. With a fundamental principle of this nature they naturally go on to ask what there is to show for a university, what is the real worth in the market place of the article called a liberal education on the supposition that it does not teach us definitely how to advance our manufactures or improve our lands or make better use of our civil economy. Or again, it does not at once make this man a lawyer, that an engineer and that a surgeon. Or at least if it does not lead to discoveries in chemistry, astronomy, geology, magnetism and science of every kind.

There we have the old question: what should be the purpose of a third level institution as we call it nowadays? Thank God we have the university which does, or at least should, basically pursue the arrival of our minds at the ultimate truth, and the ultimate excellence in every department of life. On the other hand, we have a growing economy, as was stated in the Minister's address, and we require men to fill the vacancies that need to be filled in areas of engineering, mechanical skills and so on. There one has perhaps a slight conflict between the two. But, let us always remember that be the course long or short in a university or in a regional technical college, there is more to education at that level than the acquiring of skills or knowledge or the know how. One of the things that has led to the troubles the world finds itself in, and which we can and do find ourselves in, is the lack of a sound philosophy behind all these things. That is a very important point. Perhaps the Minister would bear in mind having a course of philosophy in all the regional technical colleges so that, not alone will people know how to do a certain type of thing in their everyday occupation, but they will know the reason why. Thus we would have a better idea of where we are going and how we should arrive at our destination. Many do not seem to know at the present time in our history if we have any destination or, if we have, some are determined that we just will not get there.

I commend the Minister for bringing in this Bill. I know that many people will be delighted by it especially on account of it reducing the time limit required for the grant to two years. There are in many families boys and girls who pursue courses and because there are other children coming along after them they find great difficulty in pursuing a course for three years, which is the minimum required in any university. The year there makes a very great difference. The regional technical colleges have given great satisfaction. From reports I hear not alone from our own Regional Technical College in Cork but elsewhere that they are doing splendid work. I am sure that with an increase in the number of students coming into these colleges, better work will be done.

The Minister in his speech said in respect of scholarships that it may be that this scheme should have been more widely publicised so that pupils in all second-level schools who may be contemplating proceeding to regional technical colleges and to technical colleges may be fully aware of its existence and provisions. I propose to have this matter examined. I am glad to see that, and I am sure that when this will get further publicity, the result will be all to the good.

When the Minister said that this is a non-controversial measure, what he really is saying is that he hopes it is a non-controversial measure. I do not agree with him that it is a non-controversial measure. The Minister said, in effect, that what he wants to do with this amending Bill is to legalise the extension of the scope of the grant scheme to cover the non-university and particularly the technological sector of third-level education.

We all agree that this country desperately needs a considerable diversion of students from the traditional academic area to the non-university technological sector. The Minister is on record as saying that this is very close to his own heart and I agree. One of the things we should be considering is why there is a psychological block among parents which wants them to send their children to a college in the conventional university sense rather than sending them to a far more useful non-university third level. If the Minister thinks we believe that the present amending Bill is really going to extend the grant system, we can tell him that he is not going to bring in any new grants under this amending Bill. There is no question here of fearing him because he is ferentes dona.

Dona ferentes.

The great obstacle to any such extension that the Minister says he desires is ignored in this Bill and, that is, the four honours requirement for a grant. In addition to the unsatisfactory means test position as long as the four honours requirement remains it will prevent third-level technological education from being democratised in any real meaningful sense. The present grant scheme which it is proposed to leave untouched under the amending Bill discriminates against RTC students. It also discriminates against those would-be university students who need only two honours for entry to certain courses but whose parents cannot afford to pay for them and who do not qualify for the rather strict terms of the grant scheme. Regional colleges very properly assess suitability among applicants on a certain amount of academic criteria, in this case a pass leaving certificate and on other criteria which have nothing to do with academic performance in the leaving certificate, a performance which is irrelevant to the kind of non-academic and technological courses they are going to pursue in the RTC for which they have a particular bent. The RTCs apply their own tests within the system. In the universities proper one has a static position—the student gets his grant on four honours. There is no further testing of his aptitude or suitability. In the regional technical colleges the student can move on from a cert stage to a diploma stage to a degree stage. There is a proper inbuilt system of testing the students to which the whole business of leaving cert honours is largely irrelevant.

The four honours requirement is an anomaly in the context of the regional technical colleges and a complete block to the aim which the Minister now professes that is, the liberalisation of the grant scheme to the non-university sector. The four honours requirement reduces the number of grant-aided students who would otherwise be suitable for third-level non-university education and who would not only help to democratise third-level education but would make a badly needed contribution to the technological development of our economy. Surely the real criterion for suitability of entry to third-level regional technical colleges and the real basis on which grants should be given is whether the student is judged by those most suitable to do so, to be suitable to get a place in the course. The place in the course criterion is the appropriate one rather that the four honours requirement.

How does the Minister explain the following facts or how does he think this amending Bill is going to improve the positions reflected by the facts: (1) 60 per cent of the students in Waterford Regional Technical College last year had no financial aid, (2) only 4.4 per cent of the RTC students generally are receiving higher education grants, (3) more generally the number of people suitable for higher education seems to be falling rather than rising and (4) the Vocational Education Committee scholarship scheme which was lauded by the Minister in his statement, is, as is well known, defective from the point of view of being competitive and limited? In Dublin County Council, a vast area, the number of such scholarships currently granted is very small indeed. Part of the answer to these drawbacks lies in low eligibility levels, but a very important part of the answer is the anomaly of the four honours requirement.

The real purpose of this Bill, with its retrospective clause, is to cover the Minister against the irregular situation that has developed over the last four years where the scope of the grant scheme has been broadened in a piecemeal fashion and where grants have been handed out ultra vires. There are all kinds of anomalies. In Galway Regional Technical College there was a student pursuing a course in secretarial studies who did not have a grant sanctioned by the Department. There was another student in similar circumstances similarly qualified in other respects whose grant was sanctioned. Is not the real purpose of this amending Bill to put a cosmetic liberal gloss on the present position while guarding the Department against the prospect of civil actions? It is not altogether clear that the amending Bill is going to guarantee the Department against the prospect of such actions.

What about a student, for example, in a non-university college who retrospectively, so to speak, was eligible for a grant in 1974 and duly and properly finished his or her course in 1976? Is it not conceivable that such a student can sue the Department and claim a grant retrospectively? The amending Bill, as it stands, is altogether too vague and leaves the Minister with arbitrary powers. For example, in the only part of the Bill which actually proposes an amendment there is a reference to a course or courses of not less than two years duration being a course or courses of which the Minister approves. Is it not possible for the Minister, under this vague clause, if the educational national cake dwindles further, to withdraw recognition from certain courses and accord it to others, even within the universities themselves? Of course there must be ministerial discretion. The Minister is a highly discreet man; there is no doubt about that. But his discretion should be more clearly defined, more clearly circumscribed.

The Bill purports to be a progressive measure. In fact, it is a no-change Bill, arguably a reactionary Bill. It leaves unchanged section 2 (1) of the existing Act of 1968 where the four honours requirement is, if not specifically laid down, certainly understood.

I would like to make one more general and political point—I have kept fairly closely to the terms of the Bill—which occurred to me just this morning. Under our grants scheme generally a qualified student is entitled to hold a grant in university institutions outside this State. It you have a student who wants to go to university, who has his four honours and is properly qualified, he may hold it in the New University of Ulster in Coleraine. Nothing is stopping him, and a very good thing too. But there is, of course, something stopping him and that is the inadequate level of our grants scheme. In 1973 when fees were much lower in the New University of Ulster in Coleraine 20 per cent of the students in that university were from the Republic. Now that the fees there are out of the reach of our present grant holders that percentage of Southern students has fallen to 5 per cent. In passing I would recommend this particular inadequacy in our grants scheme to the consideration of the Minister because Government professions of sincerity about building North/South bridges sound very hollow indeed when you examine them in the light of the situation on the ground.

What a pity we should have such an unsatisfactory measure before us in a week in which the Higher Education Authority, hardly a body composed of long-haired student radicals and subversives, has made very clear its own dissatisfaction with the present system of financing higher education and with the reactionary thinking on education in the Green Paper. No: the Minister must do better than this. Instead of this negative measure he should be coming into this House to do something about inadequate grants and inadequate fees, about raising the scandalously low participation rate of our youth in higher education, far and away the lowest participation rate in the EEC. He should be doing something about improving the level of education spending in the context of Government priorities generally. If the Minister does not do better I shall be compelled to revise my assessment of him which was made in the days of our golden youth; I shall be compelled to mutter mournfully: O quantum mutatus ab illo Hectore.

I should like briefly to welcome this Bill. It seems to be the custom to present various phrases in Latin, no doubt in deference to our distinguished classical scholar, the Minister, and I suppose there are many different routes to the stars but, unfortunately, in this country we have tended to assume to far too great an extent that the only route was via the universities. The basic intention of this Bill is to provide the necessary amending legislation to allow tenure of higher education grants at approved non-degree courses at such institutions as colleges of technology and regional technical colleges. This is a very welcome, albeit a very belated step. I am glad that the Minister has seen fit on one of his first visits to this Chamber to introduce this very necessary Bill. It is enormously important that we put more emphasis on technological education, that we appreciate more and more that there are many routes to the stars, that the only way is not just through the universities, and particularly not through the rather perhaps excessively traditional universities we have in this country with a very heavy emphasis, in the past at any rate, on arts subjects and nowhere near sufficient support or emphasis on the science and technological aspect of learning which in itself is surely just as important as the arts, and which additionally is so very necessary in practical terms for our developing economy.

It is a strange fact that at present in this country, in many areas—computer science is one—we are very short of qualified graduates. For many technological subjects we find ourselves having to import technological people of the highest ability and intelligence. But equally well we could supply this perfectly adequately from within our own resources were there the opportunity and also perhaps the tradition amongst our parents and in our society generally to realise that technology is not just second best. In many ways it is a first rather than a second. It is a matter of great sadness to see that the number is so few—160 exercised the 1974 option. I am very glad to see that the Minister is going to take steps to see that the scheme will be more widely publicised so that students in other schools generally who may be contemplating proceeding to the regional technical colleges and colleges of technology may be fully aware of their assistance and provisions.

The other aspect that I am glad to see is that we are now giving support to people who are taking non-degree courses. I sincerely hope we will begin to get away from this bias or snobbery which tended to separate degree and non-degree courses. There may be many circumstances in which a non-degree course is much more appropriate, much more valuable to the individual and perhaps of a far higher standard than that of a given degree course. They each have their place and one is not necessarily below or above the other. I very much welcome this Bill.

In the sense that this Bill merely legislates retrospectively for a situation which already exists the Minister may try to describe it as a non-controversial measure. I would agree very much indeed with Senator Murphy that that depends on how you view the subject, and for those who are deeply concerned, as is the Labour Party, with the inequality of access to third-level education, with the distorted way in which the present system operates, this has to be a very controversial Bill because it is going to do nothing to counter the inequity and imbalance in the present system.

It is regrettable the Minister has decided to introduce a Bill because that is a complicated process—it has to go through both Houses—and has chosen to structure it in such a very narrow way. I propose, first of all, to speak in more general terms about the position relating to access to third-level education in Ireland and then to relate my remarks specifically to what the Minister could have done at the very least, in introducing a Bill called the Local Authorities (Higher Education Grants) Bill, 1978. The very least he could have done—as I shall explain—is to abolish the four honours eligibility requirement for grants to the approved courses to which he will extend the legislation, namely, to the RTCs and COTs.

First of all, let us look at the background picture relating to higher education in Ireland. In doing so I am indebted to the Union of Students of Ireland, as I think a number of other Senators are, for very useful material which makes the case which they want to bring before the public, the unanswerable case, that in the youngest and fastest-growing country in the European Community we have blatant discrimination in access to third-level education; we have inherited privilege and unnecessary and unacceptable criteria for that access. We are steadily worsening the situation by not having the grants for third-level education keeping pace with the cost of living and not ensuring that the means test is a realistic one for 1978 and into 1979. The situation is a very bad one indeed, is getting worse very steadily and is doing so in the context of a country with a population 50 per cent of which is under 25 and—perhaps an even more relevant statistic—39 per cent of which is under 19. So the challenge is clearly there. We should be doing a very different kind of thing in this country at present. We should be examining every aspect of our economic and social development to see how far we can ensure that every last penny that can possibly be spared goes into education of our young in every possible way—improving the ratio of teachers and pupils at primary level, improving access and facilities there, improving access at secondary level and improving and correcting the present imbalance in access to education at the third-level. That would make a great deal of political sense if we want to have a basic social cohesion as a people—it is as important as that—if we want to realise the challenge of our economic and social development in a very complex world, where we need an educated labour force, where we need skilled people, where we need a very adaptable labour force—technicians and those who would contribute to expanding the economic life of the country for the benefit of all our people.

These are the kind of urgent considerations which just will not wait. Instead, the picture is one of diminution in Government expenditure in education generally and specifically in third-level education. It displays a lack of any attempt to ensure that student grants and the means test for eligibility for grants keep even some linkage with the cost of living. The effect of this is that there is a decline in our third-level institutions of students supported by State funds. I propose to put on the record of the House figures illustrating this which have been compiled by the Union of Students in Ireland. It is very important indeed that we, the representatives of the people and the people, through a debate in this House, know what the situation is and are made aware of the very crucial social problems and indeed the political lunacy of not redirecting the focus on education and vastly expanding the facilities and access to education.

An assessment has been prepared of the percentage of students receiving financial aid from the State. The figures show a comparison between the years 1975, 1976 and 1977. For the universities the percentage in 1975 was 22.5 per cent; in 1976 it went up to 23 per cent; in 1977 it came down to 22 per cent. I will be interested if the Minister can fill in the figure for 1978. For the RTCs and COTs, the percentage of students receiving financial aid from the State in 1975 was 27 per cent; in 1976 it was 27.5 per cent; in 1977 it had gone down to 22 per cent. In the first-and second-level teacher education, the primary teacher training, the percentage of students receiving financial aid from the State in 1975—and here for complex reasons there are the two figures but the figures again decline—72 per cent, declining in 1976 to 68 per cent, declining in 1977 sharply to 61 per cent. Therefore, the percentage in all third-level institutions of students receiving financial aid from the State goes down from 29.5 per cent in 1975 to 29 per cent in 1976, and a more sharp drop, 27.5 per cent in 1977. This must illustrate, more than any words alone can do, what is happening effectively in third-level education—the lack of a realistic student grant. I would accept as moderate the figure of £900 which is the assessment given by USI of the basic living grant on which a student can attend a third-level institution, pay for his or her accommodation and live, without any particular luxuries.

The present grants and the very outdated and unrealistic means test and level of eligibility exclude a very considerable number of students whose parents may not seem to be precisely on the poverty line. But they cannot, in present circumstances, afford to support a student during that student's time at third-level education. The number who are able to avail of State-financing declines because they are caught just outside the means test eligibility. Therefore, they are victims of the system. Similarly, in the case of the RTCs and COTs there is a most illogical exclusion, that is, the four honours exclusion. This type of prerequisite to getting a State grant to go on for technical education does not make any sense. First of all it does not acknowledge the value of technical education, the different criteria, the different approach; very often, the different strengths of the individual who will go on for technical education. It is applying a criterion— one type of criterion—which is for an academic stream.

The subjects in which a student may get honours could be completely unrelated to the question of going on for technical education. Similarly, a student who wants to go on to take a course in a regional technical college may be an excellent student when assessed by the kind of criteria that the technical college itself would apply, would definitely gain entry to the college, but cannot avail of a grant because of the completely unsuitable prerequisite of having four honours in academic subjects in the Leaving Certificate. The Minister has not advanced the cause of higher education, has not improved in any way the eligibility for higher education, in the Bill before the House today. I can accept that he may wish to introduce the provisions relating to the amount of the grant, the extension of scholarship or the means test eligibility by regulations at a different time. But I would have thought that any measure relating to extending the grants scheme, to legislate retrospectively for the fact that the RTCs are covered already, with some anomalies, afforded the Minister an opportunity which he had a very deep responsibility to assume, an opportunity to recognise the difference, to allow technical education to come of age in Ireland, indeed to endorse what I think is an increasingly widely-felt view that we must, as a country, emphasise and increase access to and facilities in the area of technical training and education in order to provide the opportunities to our young and the opportunities for economic and social development of this country so desperately needed in the whole economic sphere.

The Minister had that responsibility when he was deciding to introduce a Bill to legislate for extending the grants scheme to other approved courses. He has failed in that responsibility by retaining an illogical qualification which does not make any sense to the individual going on to the technical college, which is not an entry requirement of the technical college and which has the very undesirable effect of continuing a privileged, streamed access so that it is still beyond the reach and scope of the numbers of students coming up who would otherwise avail of the opportunity to go to technical college. Obviously to remove the four honours requirement would be to increase the number of those who would apply for local authority grants and would involve the costing of the scheme and the expenditure.

Here it is relevant to examine the figures regarding expenditure in education, to see that in this area of social expenditure, far from the budget increasing in proportion to the demands, needs and physical description of us as a people, a demand which recognises our very substantial youth and the fact that there is no longer the level of emigration there was, the fact that the birth rate is continuing at a higher level than in other countries, that the population will continue to increase and to require to be educated to the end of the century.

The figures with which we are faced in looking at expenditure in education and the Green Paper predictions are running counter to the real situation, the real demand on the ground. It is very hard to reconcile this with the priorities of the present Government. I believe, and the Labour Party believe, that you cannot dissociate the Government attitude towards education generally, and access to higher education, from the whole approach to the economic and social planning of the country. We believe that if there is going to be the possibility of diverting adequate resources to educate and to provide equality of access to education to this growing number of our young population, not from the privilege of their birth but as a right as young citizens to have access to education, to have equality of that access and to have the bias in favour of those who cannot afford to pay fees or to cover the cost of accommodation—if we are going to change that—then I do not think it can be done by a Government which appears to be prepared to structure their economic strategy on fostering a consumer boom by an elite, of a band of about 30 or 40 per cent of the population who are made dramatically better off as a strategy so that they may consume more and therefore generate the need for more production the need for a so-called economic growth based on that.

I believe that the strategy of making the better off in our society dramatically more affluent through the various measures taken—the removal of car tax, the removal of rates on private dwellings, the retention of the highest band of income tax, 60 per cent, the removal of wealth tax, the removal of a partial effect of capital gains tax, the increase in personal allowances at the higher level, all of these have generated more consumer spending, more money freely floating around. We have seen evidence of this. One only has to go to a race meeting to see the amount of money, at a certain level, which is in free flow, where people have no problem in spending at a certain level. This has to be contrasted with the lack of priorities in where we should be spending any resources of the State. It is not merely a question of spending the money. It is a question of ensuring that, as a people, we understand where our priorities should be and why they should be there. The problem in debating education—it has been said and I think there is some truth in it—that it is a subject that empties the House at times—it is both too complex a problem, too difficult to tackle because once you start talking about third-level education you have somebody else who says: well my priority would be primary education. This is a problem, that of trying to relate a discussion on education to our present economic and social context. I believe this is more urgent, more basically critical in Ireland today than it has been since the foundation of the State. We have changed so substantially in our demographic structure and yet we have have not changed sufficiently in our perception of ourselves.

We do not see this country as being a very young country. We do not see this country as being a country with a lower expenditure in education than the other countries with whom we are in an alliance in the context of the European Economic Community. I do not think people would know, if asked, that the percentage of State-financed students in our third-level institutions has gone down since 1975. I think there would be a great deal of surprise, that people would say: that cannot be so; there must have been an increase in expenditure in third-level education.

It is hard to believe that students could really be expected to live and be able to follow their courses of studies on the present maximum maintenance allowances. The maximum maintenance allowance in 1978 and 1979 is £500 for somebody away from home and £200 living at home. The maximum fees allowance is £289, except for certain courses, medical, veterinary or dental courses in Trinity or in the NUI. To anybody who is trying to budget in present circumstances, with the increase in the cost of living in recent years, that is not by anybody's standards a minimum living allowance. The effect of that is to make still more privileged, still more narrow, access to third-level education, and I believe that there was a fairly high expectation of the present Minister for Education when he came into office, that he was seen as a man with a certain vision to improve access to education and in particular to provide a focus and a structure which would lead to an improvement in equality of access to education.

Whether it is because he cannot persuade his Cabinet colleagues to assist him in the matter or because he has not been following through with that mission, I do not think he is redressing a bad situation. I think he is allowing it to drift and become a worse situation, a situation of still narrower access, a situation which in a country that was about to become a republic allows us to build into the system a degree of privilege which would be very seriously questioned in any country which genuinely proported to treat all its citizens equally. We do not treat all our citizens equally, and nowhere is that more dramatic than in the overall picture of access to education and distribution of our resources in relation to the amount we spend on education generally and specifically, since we are talking about it here in the House today, on third-level education.

It is not too late for the Minister. He could still introduce an amendment to this Bill to abolish the four honours entry requirement for technical education. This would not dramatically affect the position in relation to universities because the universities have, as we all know, an increasingly high entry requirement anyway. There is great pressure on places at the university level and the universities are increasingly upping already very high requirements, and this in itself is causing very real difficulties. But it would have a dramatic effect in opening up access to the technical colleges in giving us the skilled, trained, educated young work force that we so desperately need as a country and it would show our young people that we have some sense of social priorities, that we have some sense of what the focus of our attention as a people should be.

The Labour Party will be tabling amendments to this Bill at the Committee Stage, and one of these amendments will relate to what Senator Murphy rightly referred to as the very vague and worrying new power which the Minister has taken in relation to approving an institution or a course in an institution to include also the approval of university courses. It may be that the Bill was unintentionally drafted in an ambiguous way, but I, like Senator Murphy, would read from the Bill the possibility that the Minister might reserve for himself a discretion whether to approve for the future an existing course in a university institution. I think this would have a disasterous effect on university autonomy. It is something that is not necessary or desirable, particularly in the relationship between the State and university institutions. We can provide the proper focus of equality of access through proper distribution of resources of the country without impinging on basic university autonomy. The Labour Senators have also been trying, within the constraints imposed on them, to amend a Bill in this House without imposing a further charge on the public expenditure—to broaden the scope of this Bill—because it seems to me a regrettable waste of the time of both Houses to have a Bill going through which merely legislates the status quo when we know so well that that status quo is inequitable and unequal and should not be tolerated in our very young and hopefully democratic society.

No doubt the Minister will be relieved to hear that I do not claim to speak for the Union of Students in Ireland but merely as the mother of the Cassidy students. I should like to add my voice to those who have welcomed the Minister on his first visit to the Seanad and to wish him well in a portfolio which many of us consider to be the most important in Government. I should also like to welcome this low key but important measure to increase the scope of higher education grants.

The Minister has noted in his speech that a progressive burgeoning in the educational sphere has occurred particularly in the technical and technological area, and although this is to be welcomed, he goes on to say that the numbers attending universities are much greater than those in the RTCs and the colleges of technology. Therefore, the universities still dominate third level education here. They make up 2.5 per cent of students at all levels, a little less than the number of students who attend private primary schools. Roughly 25 per cent of university students are the recipients of higher education grants which are designed to cover fees and the minimal subsistence level of maintenance, the cost of which is borne by the taxpayer.

The grant system comes in for constant criticism—its inadequacy, its grounding of a means test and a merit test: and on a location basis it is said to impose more stringent standards on poorer students.

Many students who receive grants emigrate and spend their working lives abroad, thereby conferring the advantages of their skill and learning on other communities.

Is there not a case then to be made to replace the grant system by one whereby students would be enabled to obtain long-term loans, to be repaid after graduation and assisted, where necessary, by scholarships? Would this not be a way through which the State could recoup its investment, and would it not be a more equitable system particularly for the taxpayer who not only contributes to the cost of educating his neighbours' children, but is not afforded income tax relief for what he pays, in full, for his own? After all, to be ineligible for a higher education grant does not automatically put one in the Rockefeller class.

We tend as parents, and as a community in general, to be very complacent in our attitude to this aspect of the educational system. We look with pride at the number of students who graduate every year from the universities. We ignore the fact that at the same time many of them will never be able to obtain employment in their own country. We point with pride to our love of learning which we regard rightly as one of our finest traditions. It is time we stopped looking back at the hedge schools and fixed our gaze firmly on the many problems which exist in education today—the funding of the system, in particular, which if all places sought are to be provided will have to be double the 1974 figure by 1986 at all levels. We want to look at the direction in which the system will go in the 1980s.

I hope that the next legislation brought in by the Minister will afford us scope for a wider debate on these matters and give us something to get our teeth into. Of course, a basic problem before we talk about expanding the scope of grants at third-level is to ensure that all students who want to avail of third-level education, whether in university or technical college, will be given the opportunity to do so. We must ensure equality of access—that no child will be denied an education (a), because his parents cannot afford it and (b) because he is disadvantaged by the sort of first-level education available to him.

The State guarantees to provide a free though not necessarily an adequate primary education for our children and many children, because of where they live, find themselves seriously disadvantaged not only before they reach second or third level but before they go to school at all. I think there is a historical reason to this. We have inherited a highly developed national school system which concentrated on providing a basic education for as many as possible as cheaply as possible. This system could not and did not stand up to the demands of modern first-level education without substantial funding by the State to replace old insanitary and unsuitable schools, and to replan the curriculum in a rather drastic fashion. Although a lot has been done in this area, a lot still remains to be done. We will end up replacing a highly developed cheap system with a highly developed expensive one. We must also regard as particularly disadvantaged the many children who for one reason or another drop out of the system at an early stage.

One of the points that inevitably crops up in any debate on third-level education is the points system as a means of entry. As a system it is inequitable. It merely acts as a device for screening and rejection. It places intolerable pressures on pupils to pass examinations, and while one admits the point of view that the prospect of examinations helps to concentrate the mind wonderfully, as a parent one can deplore the undesirable pressures and the nervous tensions it causes in pupils, teachers and parents alike, and it should be replaced.

Perhaps the separation of the matriculation certificate from the leaving certificate, the removal of compulsory subjects and a system which would include individual assessment, are possibilities to be considered. If places can be provided very substantial growth at third level can be expected. Budgetary and enrolment pressures would increase and the response to these pressures should be a planned one.

They are some random thoughts as a parent. I see the need for more involvement by parents in the educational system. I find it disheartening when, if one talks about career guidance, for example, parents say: "Oh yes, we must get the bank manager in to give a talk to the sixth year lads". At this stage of our educational development that sort of thinking is for the birds.

I have great hopes for this Ministry. I know the Minister will be a worthy successor of previous Fianna Fáil Ministers who pursued far-sighted and courageous policies in order to ensure that all our children, whatever their social background or their income limits, would have access to education, and I will leave the Minister with this thought, expressed by the Prime Minister of Great Britain and Ireland, Benjamin Disraeli, in a debate in the House of Commons in 1872 when he said: "Upon the education of the people of this country depends the future of this country."

I do not apologise for speaking on this debate even if I appear to represent the Union of Students in Ireland. It is important that university Senators in this House should comment on this Bill which affects higher education so significantly. It is important also that we note the concern of some of us who have the honour to represent university graduates that there should be a great widening of access to education.

It is a pity we have not been considering far more fundamental measures in the whole area of education than this very small measure which is basically to clear up a problem which existed. It is not a new concept. It has been mentioned before that it is a rich country indeed which has a high level of participation of its young people in all areas of third level education. In Ireland we have 33,000 young people enjoying full time higher education. This is an extremely low participation rate, as has been pointed out, 7.9 per cent, the lowest rate by far of our European neighbours. The number holding higher education grants is 5,848, and if you add to that information which came to hand last year that under 3 per cent of the students of UCD in 1966-67 were from families where the breadwinner was a manual worker or in that bracket, you have a very sorry picture of restricted access to education.

This Bill corrects an anomaly and extends the provisions of grants to the non-university sector, but in doing so it brings to mind and exacerbates the unfairness of the four honours criteria. Again, as I say, I make no apologies for expressing grave concern on that point. It is scandalous that in 1978 a child whose father is better off than his neighbour should have access to third level education even with lower academic achievements. It is very difficult to explain that away in a country which professes to believe in social justice and in which we are striving for equality of opportunity.

When you remember that the children of the poorer sections of our society are already extremely handicapped in their attempts to gain education—they are most grievously handicapped by the under-financed national school system —how can we add another handicap when they have made the admirable effort to reach a stage where they wish to partake of third level education? It is a great achievement for a child from a poor background to have got to that level and a great achievement for his parents to have foregone the opportunity to put that child out to work at an earlier age. This is a system which we cannot possibly condone any longer. It should be replaced, as Senator Murphy has said, by acceptance to a course—that should be the criterion which would decide if the grant was to be got, leaving aside the other criteria regarding income and so on. We cannot continue to add to the cynicism which we deplore in young people at so early an age by the spectacle of his less bright neighbour's child who happens to have money in the bank getting yet one more advantage over him.

If a side effect of this Bill is to give more impetus to a very badly needed raising of status and interest in technology and in the courses offered by non-university institutions in technology, that is to be greatly lauded. I hope it will not be long before some of the seats in which our university Senators sit will be available to the people who are coming through those regional colleges. This is another measure which is long overdue. It is an anachronism that there are six seats in this House reserved for university Senators.

I do not agree with the Minister that this is a non-controversial Bill. It raises controversy by its very limited area. We need far more imagination and energy to be applied to a broad range of educational positions. We have an expanding young population. We must bring it to its maximum potential in terms of involvement and achievement which lead to personal fulfilment, and anachronisms by the four honours and the grants criteria have no place in a modern educational policy.

I will be speaking for myself, and, like Senator Cassidy, for my own children who are students, but I make no apology whatsoever for saying a few words on behalf of the USI. Over the years I have managed to work very closely with them and as Chairman of the National Council for Educational Awards. There are two members of the USI on that group and they never failed to get a hearing. We did not always agree with some of their views, but I think that my relationship there is good and I do not mind saying a few words on their behalf.

I find myself in a difficult position. I know that the Bill is recognising the status quo. I would like the Minister spending a few million, if he had it, to give greater support to people in the third-level educational system. I am looking forward to the debate we are to have on the National Council for Educational Awards Bill which I believe was released today. I am not going to broaden the scope of my statements on this measure. At the same time, I would have to express some disappointment that we cannot make some more money available. I had a look at the figures: I do not know whether this is right, but it seems to me that another 4,000 would be brought into the net if we adjusted the criteria for entry as four honours. That would cost us £1.5 million or so.

Maybe this is our chance. I see in the Minister, a man who can move in the steps of Donogh O'Malley, but we need a new "Investment in Education." The report, Investment in Education, was published, I think in 1966—the OECD Report. Looking at the projections before us for the necessary enrolment taking into account the growth in jobs that we must get for a healthy society over the next few years, the whole educational system will be one big problem from the point of view of the funding of it. I would throw it out on this occasion to the Minister on his first time in the Seanad that he might think about that.

I have here a report that was published by the National Council for Educational Awards written by Dr. Joe Hennessy. The sort of thing that is ahead of us is daunting. When we consider projections at a given point in time it is very hard to visualise the impact of a ten-year development. I remember in 1969 when we were working on the Steering Committee Report for the Regional Technical Colleges we had no output from colleges of that kind. In the vocational system we had, say, 1,800 or 1,700 students. We went from zero to 4,000 now in the RTC system, and it is growing. I mentioned it before in the House but I should like to mention again that we must believe our own forecasts. If we believe the country will expand at a rate of 7 per cent, then employment will expand, and if the employment expands we need properly trained people to take up the jobs. Dr. Hennessy's report states:

Irrespective of the needs of industry for more and higher technological skills, the trends in student enrolments when related to the projected population increase in Ireland and the increasing participation rate in third-level education predict a heavy demand for higher education in the 1980s. In the higher technological sector alone there will probably be a demand for 12,000 student places by 1981 and for 18,000 by 1986 in contrast to just over 7,000 in 1977.

I had another rather sinful thought, maybe, and I will throw it out here as well. What we need are young people who will be induced more into the technological sector. In 1969, I do not think we ever dreamt that there would be such acceptance of it as there is now. But we need even more; we need the doubling of the number of technicians in the next five years. This figure has been thrown out by the Confederation of Irish Industry and has been mentioned by Dr, Joe Hennessy here. That is a big number, but they are required if we are to meet our job targets, our industrial targets. Possibly the Minister might be able to make a few bob available to encourage people to go into that stream, in other words, to give differential grants. That might not cost so much. It is what the country is about. It may get a student who has been left out of the arts faculties into the tehnological areas.

As I said at the opening I will not broaden the debate past this Bill. We will have the NCEA Bill coming in and we will have a chance to go into the other implications of technological education. I look forward to that.

I welcome the spirit of the Bill as I am one of the people who deal with large numbers of students who will be effected by its provisions. I also advise large numbers of people whom I do not actually teach who will be affected by its provisions. Everybody in this House supports the widening and the extension of the grants scheme for universities and any broadening of the terms of reference for this grant scheme is to be welcomed. This is the object of the Bill.

I should like to make some general observations on the problems the Minister faces. He is a distinguished man of letters. In recent times I have had many letters back from Irish people in the US to say he has performed with distinction, which is not normally associated with Ministers for Education, for one reason or another, in his visits abroad. He has helped greatly to project our cultural image and, of course, he has been greatly helped by the fact that his predecessor and himself combined to allow the exhibition of Irish art to tour the United States. This sort of thing is a very important plus in our cultural relations abroad. I do not think we should hide the fact under a bushel that in the eighth, ninth, tenth and eleventh centuries we produced some of the most remarkable art of the artistic world in any era. It is one of our great prides and joys. The Minister has acquitted himself with great distinction in the United States accompanying this exhibition, and it has rubbed off in a very benevolent and positive way. This sort of thing can only do this country good.

I am delighted to see the Minister in the House after one of his successful visits to the US. If I might digress for a moment—I see the beady eye of the Leas-Chathaoirleach about to descend on me and cut me off—I might make a small political point. Our relations with our Irish-American colleagues are not always easy, sometimes they are very difficult indeed, and I think that the exhibition now visiting the United States can only have done a tremendous amount of good for that difficult political relationship.

To get down to the substantive ideas contained in this Bill, I commend Senator Mulcahy who consistently in this House has been making a strong case for the development of our technology and for the powers-that-be in this country to realise that the forward projections of people like him who are trained in this area of projection show very serious shortfalls in this area particularly in the technological sector. Senator Mulcahy has consistently made this point since he came into the House. It is greatly to his credit and I want to say this in a non-political way. Far too few of our representatives have any technological training or expertise and it seems to me that it is one of the most important, if not the most important point to make as far as our higher education is concerned, that the great development has to come in the technological sector. That is the way the world is going and whether we like it or not if we are going to be able to pay our way and make our living we must have people developed along all the strata of the technological sector. We have to put considerable resources into this and we must if we can, get help from the European Economic Communities to develop our technological training at all levels. It is one of the things the Minister must be considering at considerable length.

It is very important in connection with this Bill that this sort of idea be put into practice. I feel that the National Council for Educational Awards has a great deal to recommend it. It is a very important body and I think as a university person that the universities were wrong when some time ago they appeared to want to swallow up so many of the other third-level institutes and educational bodies. That is wrong. There are many of these institutes and bodies that can play a very fruitful role in conjunction with the universities. Let us have co-operation and two-way communication going all the time.

The move some years ago may have been a defensive gesture on the universities' part. I do not want to defend the universities on this but I think they were basically wrong. Their philosophy of trying to swallow up these bodies was wrong. I am not saying this as an absolutely blanket statement applying to every one of the links the universities have but, in general terms, a number of these bodies would be better and it would be better for the nation as a whole if they remained independent. I feel as a university person that the universities have a clearly defined role to play but there are many other very important roles for other institutions and we should not overlook them. We must be careful about keeping our terms of reference right. This sentiment will not make me popular in my own institutions or perhaps some other institutions but I have felt this for some time. In the appropriate areas independence is important and provided that acceptable standards can be maintained, then this independence is worth while. I say this to the Minister because it is one of the difficult problems which must constantly lie on his desk, the problem of assessment of the end product of these sorts of institutions.

I think the NCEA is a good idea; it has a lot going for it. Mistakes will be made in this area of assessment: it is a difficult and delicate area; there are political pressures pulling in many directions but the nettle must be grasped. It should be done and people should be big enough, after a period of operation to say: "Let us review the situation and let us change certain aspects of it." That is important.

I would welcome the broadening of the scheme which we are considering to non-university institutions. One of the questions that surrounds this Bill is: how broad is the definition in section 1 of the institutions, and how many institutions does it encompass in its terms. The idea is to broaden the application of the 1968 Act. I am not quite sure that the Minister is broadening it sufficiently and I intend to put down an amendment for Committee Stage which will broaden it still further. There are considerable arguments for a further broadening of the terms of this approved institution. Even though the terms of my amendment may go further than the Minister would himself approve of, I think I should table the amendment. It is worth considering a further broadening of the terms of the scheme.

I would like to bring to the Minister's attention one anomaly which I came up against in the application of the rules which are mentioned in this Bill. It came to my attention because of the problems that a certain student faced in 1972 or 1973, a student who was coming under my aegis, the family wrote to me and as a result of this I contacted the student and went to see them and the following situation had arisen. He was a student from a particular county. He had got seven honours at a high level in the leaving certificate and his family, as I ascertained on my own, would have been well within the means level for the operation of the grant. There was no problem there; large family, small farm, large number of children to be educated; no problem about the means test. This young man who did extremely well in his leaving certificate entered a dentistry course and went on holidays with a friend of his from a neighbouring county. He was applying for a grant in the normal way and he was with his friend who was also eligible for the grant in a similar situation. He was saying: "I had better go and get my grant application made" and his mate said "Do not worry; there is another month to go". It turned out that when he returned to his home county the dates for application for the grant in the two counties were different. So, the boy in county X got his grant and my man in county Y was late for his grant, and when you are late with your application you do not get the grant. That was not the problem. I do not have much sympathy with people who apply late. If you are late, you have to wait for the following year. That was not the crux. The crux came when he wrote to his county council and when they contacted the Department of Education the Department said "If you want to get the grant in the following year you must repeat your leaving certificate".

I never heard anything so ludicrous in all my life. He had to repeat his leaving certificate at the end of the first year of his dental course in TCD. You cannot ask human beings to pass their first premedical or pre-dental examination and to repeat their leaving certificate, but this was the regulation laid down, that if you were late one year then you had to repeat your Leaving Certificate.

I raised this matter on an Adjournment Debate and the then Minister's Parliamentary Secretary who was in office, I think for a short time before the dissolution of the Dáil, was Deputy O'Kennedy. The interesting thing was that the candidate was in his home constituency and he had already been notified about the problem as a Deputy. After this Adjournment Debate and much discussion beforehand and afterwards with the Minister's advisers that regulation was changed, but not retrospectively, and so my man did without his university grant. The argument given by the Minister's advisers was that if you do not put a terminal date on this sort of regulation then you will have people applying from 1908 with six honours in the leaving certificate and they will be eligible for university grants. It is the greatest lot of nonsense I ever heard in my life. That was the official argument put up by the advisers of the Minister and my man never got his university grant.

I got him some money. He scraped around and got some money from other sources. He worked hard night and day. I told him long before this that his family were put to the pin of their collar to get this lad through because the dental course is a long course. I asked him to do one thing for me and he promised to do it. There were three children, younger than him as well as four older than him. I suggested that he should pay for their education when he had his dental qualification. I am not sure about dentists operating in this country, but as soon as one goes to England and operates in the national health service there one can earn £X thousand a year where X is a large whole number. I told him to make sure that the three children were educated, that his family had "bust" themselves to get him through. The great grey bureaucracy defeated us at every turn but because of him, I said, we got the regulation changed, but not retrospectively.

I also want to put down an amendment to obviate the situation that arose originally because I think that all county councils and borough councils and corporations must have the same application date. I would like to put down an amendment to another part of the 1968 Act in this connection. Therefore, I want to put down two amendments for the Committee Stage of this Bill, one to attempt to broaden the terms of definition—I think it is in the spirit of what the Minister is doing but perhaps it goes further than he does—and the other concerning the application date for the grants for the various county councils.

Finally, I would like to say to the Minister that I have come across very many students who would not be getting their third-level education if they did not have grants. I have thought a lot about this problem. I myself had access to certain limited funds and have been able to help people who have not been able to benefit from the scheme for various reasons—mature students are one difficult area although I would not say they have the most pressing need to be brought under the Minister's scheme. Sometimes in various institutions one can find funds to help people who genuinely have talent and who could genuinely benefit. I know that the Minister is a man of culture and I am delighted to see someone with a classical education in office, someone who is prepared to use the classics in a position of authority in our educational system. I have a great respect for a classical education. I think it is being somewhat undervalued at the moment. I hope also that the Minister is a good poker player and that he has the other qualities which one needs to ally with a classical education so that when the chips are down—and for any Cabinet Minister the chips are down when it comes to getting your slice of the money—he will assert himself. As an educationalist I hope that what I say at any time supports the Minister and supports his Department and supports his officials in their attempt to get the money that is necessary to fund schemes like this.

I have thought at times that we should have a repayable grant scheme like those they have in some of the Scandinavian countries. I do not know if it operates at present, but ten or fifteen years ago in Norway one got a university grant provided one was prepared to do some teaching service north of the Artic Circle. If this was applied in a reasonably benevolent way it could do a lot of good to the person who held the grant. If more Dublin people spent some time in the west—I would not say they might have to teach in the Aran Islands—if they spent a sufficient length of time in the country the Minister knows it would do them a great deal of good. As a countryman—he shares that distinction with me—coming up to Dublin, we know we have an edge over the people here, and if some of the people here spent some more time in the country they would be the better for it. I am not making this as an entirely factious point because I really think if one spends one's whole life in Ireland, even if one becomes the most highly qualified technocrat that Senator Mulcahy can dream of, and if one has never milked a cow in one's life, one is missing something.

That is true, and the Minister knows it to be true, but how do you put this point over unless you can say it nicely in French? I do not know how you can put it over so as to convince the people. I firmly believe that if as a city man you do not experience rural life you are missing something considerable. Probably the reverse is also true, but I want to say that I appreciate the position that the Minister is in. I know that there are very many calls on the funds that are at his disposal. One of the things I hope that we can do in the Seanad is to make the case and help him in his arguments in the big slice-up in the Cabinet when it comes to developing the financial provisions for the coming year.

I know there are many people in this House who are interested in education, and if our words can encourage him it will help not only in this particular sector, which I think is important, but also in the other very important sectors of the whole educational system. Regrettably I only heard the end of Senator Mulcahy's speech and none of the previous ones. This case that Senator Mulcahy made is a very cogent and important case, and the whole of our effort should be directed at getting more money for education. It is the great investment for the future, and we should support the Minister and perhaps push him a bit further than he is at present willing to go on extending the grant scheme as set out in this Bill.

First, I would like to thank the Senators who contributed to the Second Stage debate on this Bill which is a minor Bill, a Bill to fill, as I said in my introductory speech, a legal lacuna. In fact, I was rather surprised that Senator Robinson used some phrase about “a waste of time”, and as a qualified barrister I find it very hard to understand how she would regard it as a waste of time seeing that we are righting a legal wrong, in other words grants were being paid without proper statutory authority to do so and I find it very hard to understand how anyone would say that it would be a waste of time.

An inadequate use of time would have been a better description.

It is a possible interpretation of it, but "waste of time" were the words the Senator used.

Waste of time to produce a Bill to do just that.

Through the Chair, I would like to say that I consider Senator Robinson's statement that it is a waste of time to set right a legal wrong rather strange. However, I do not want to labour the point.

Senator Kilbride began by saying that there was a scarcity of technicians and that the poor man's son, the small farmer's son, in the past had nothing to show for his proficiency, and he welcomed the Bill in that it was providing for people who would go to our regional technical colleges to develop trades and crafts. He talked about what was one of the serious social ills, particularly in the areas that we both know very well, and said that very intelligent people in the past had to emigrate and that all the jobs available to them in the countries to which they emigrated were the menial ones because of this lack of educational provision. Is chuige sin ataimid.

Is mian liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis an Seanadóir Cranitch mar gur chuir sé fáilte romham sa Teach seo. He said that it was very important for us to have a philosophy of education and particularly in the technological sector because he felt that the need for a philosophy was strong in that sphere. I suppose the need for a philosophy is strong throughout all sectors of education; it is when you are laying down the tenets of your basic philosophy that you might not get agreement in this House or elsewhere.

Now Senator Murphy picked up my contention that the Bill was noncontroversial in so far as it was simply a lacuna-filling Bill. He said that it was controversial in that it pretended to extend the scheme and in fact was not extending the scheme, and he went on to talk about the four honours requirement and that the four honours requirement prevents the democratisation of education. I would contend that any extension of the scheme is to be welcomed; that as far as extension in the area to which most Senators directed their remarks, the technological area, is concerned, the scholarship scheme is the best vehicle. The point was missed that in the scholarship scheme the four honours requirement does not exist at all. In fact the scheme simply states that candidates must have obtained grade D or a higher grade in at least five subjects in the leaving certificate examination, and many in the RTCs who have these scholarships have nowhere near four honours and there is no requirement that they have four honours. I would like that to be on the records of this House. I want to state also something which many people miss, that is that the scholarships are of the same money value as the grants.

It is still a competitive thing. There are many who do not get the scholarships.

Has the Senator any statistics on that?

I have personal knowledge of refusal to people.

Would the Senator like to give me a list of them?

I would be happy to provide a list.

In some vocational education committee areas all the scholarships available are not taken up. This is something that exercises my mind and this is why I said in my introductory speech that I would emphasise the importance of that scholarship scheme. But even if there are not enough of them—and I would hope we would extend the scheme—I want to say that the four honours requirement does not apply in the vocational education committee scheme. Even without one honour, on occasion, the student in the RTC may be enjoying a grant of the same monetary value as the grant in the university system which is now being extended statutorily to the non-university sector.

Senator Murphy said that the New University of Coleraine had 20 per cent of its students from the Republic of Ireland. I would like to think that that was so but my statistics are quite different. I have information that we never had more than 7 per cent. I would agree with Senator Murphy that it is highly desirable that as many as possible of the Ulster students anyway should go to the New University of Ulster. I have my own views as to where that university should have been: I think it should have been in Derry City, based on McGee College, but that is an old controversy. I do know that before other things intervened to prevent it, the New University of Ulster people were in the schools in Counties Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan encouraging students from the South to go there. They were meeting with some success but for reasons known to all of us there has been a falling off. To my own knowledge, certain students did not go there because of the political turbulence in the Six Counties.

Great play was made both by Senator Murphy and Senator Robinson about the inadequacy of the grants and of the eligibility limits. I will deal with that in a moment. First I should like to commend Senator Conroy on his summing up of the situation in third-level education, that there is a very important place both for technological education and the traditional universities, which also provide technological qualifications in engineering and science, perhaps not with the practical bias which we are hoping for from the institutes of higher education and the regional technical colleges. They have supplied us with engineers and scientists during the years and deserve credit for it.

Senator Robinson prefaced her remarks by talking about the Labour Party and the Labour Party's concern—she used the word "concern" on a number of occasions. I suggest to the House that Senator Robinson was playing to the gallery. As the student gallery changes—it is of the nature of student life to be transitory—I would like to point out that for practically four-and-a-half years I, as spokesman on education, tried to get the Labour Party sufficiently concerned with education to support me in an attempt to have the grants raised and to support me in an attempt to have the eligibility limits raised. They had the power and the Government could not do without them. They had members in the Government but the concern was strangely asleep. Concern has suddenly been aroused again now when somebody else has the responsibility for administering education.

At least the Labour Party did not try to buy the votes of the young. It is time Fianna Fáil delivered on what they promised.

In the past, when Senator Robinson was here, she was free of whip and there was no resolution on this. I searched the Seanad records in vain to see if Senator Robinson urged the Government to increase the grants or the eligibility limits but my search was in vain. What did I do? I paid 66? per cent more than my predecessor did by way of university grants.

What about the eligibility limits?

I raised the eligibility limits by 29.5 per cent at the lower level and 21.5 per cent at the higher level. It is important when people indulge in this pseudo concern to put the record straight.

Senator Robinson asked me to abolish the four honours. As I have already said, in the technological sector the condition of four honours for the scholarship is not relevant. Those who get four honours may go there now as a result of this Bill. In fact, they have been going into the RTCs and into the NIHE already, but they lacked statutory authority. This is what the Bill is doing, as was pointed out by Senator Murphy and by others in the House. If, as a result of this debate, there is an emphasis in public on the availability of these scholarships for the RTCs and for the NIHE, the debate here will have been a success.

Senator Robinson made the point that the Government were not committed to education. I repudiate that statement. Our record speaks for itself. Every worth-while advance in education has been as a result of a policy decision by Fianna Fáil and the implementation of that decision by a Fianna Fáil Government.

The Minister is now playing to the gallery.

I challenge the Senator to name any of the advances during the years which were not brought about by a Fianna Fáil Government. The foundation of the RTCs, after they were recommended by a committee chaired by Senator Mulcahy, the free secondary education, the transport schemes, and so on, are an indication of the Government's commitment to education. Just by way of a footnote to the statement, which cannot be challenged, that for four-and-a-half years the Labour Party had an opportunity to do something for the grants and the eligibility limits because they were in a position to do so, I should like to point out that the 66? per cent increase at the top—I paid more than my predecessor paid—and the raising of eligibility limits, were both done in a position where inflation was decreasing and was much lower than it had been during the period when both these things should have been attended to by any political party that was claiming to have a sensitive social conscience.

Senator Cassidy made the point about the possibility of giving income tax relief to people who have to pay their own fees. That is a matter for the Minister for Finance. We would all be delighted if he would accept that proposition. Senator Cassidy feared that our highly developed cheap system could be replaced by a highly developed expensive system. This was one of the points that Tussing made in his report—that we had a very elaborate system of education, a very widely and finely developed system, but that we developed it in certain regions, for obvious economic reasons, which did not put the same kind of financial strain on us as will the development of the technological sector in education in the future. I accept that it is going to be difficult to cope. I think that hope rather than the caterwaul is important. We should say the problems will be there to be solved and that we are resolved to solve them. There is more of a future for that kind of attitude than for the attitude of despair which people sometimes adopt.

Senator Hussey referred to the restricted access to third-level education and said that we would have to attempt to make third-level education accessible to more people. I can assure the Senator that this has always been—I am not saying this chauvinistically, I am prepared to back it up with facts—the strongest motivation of Fianna Fáil because the support of this party was a populist support. For that reason, representatives are more than conscious of the particular sector in the economy that is least able to afford third-level education. Senator Hussey referred to the danger of cynicism and I think she made a real point there. Before the introduction of the grants scheme it was a cynicism that was corrosive in that some person with a bare matriculation certificate could get university education and someone who happened to be able to scrape together enough money to get a secondary education could not go to the university even though he or she might have five or six honours in the leaving certificate.

The purpose of the grants and scholarships scheme is to obviate this in so far as that is possible. I know that the philosophy of the dog is prevalent anyway and always will be prevalent but the kind of cynicism that grows out of that situation should be removed and we will try to ensure that the grants system and the scholarships cover as many as possible of those who have the ability and the intention of availing of third level education.

Senator Mulcahy rightly said that he got great help from the Union of Students in Ireland when he was Chairman of the National Council for Educational Awards and he also had contacts with them when he was chairing the committee that recommended the foundation of the regional technical colleges. I find the interest of the USI in the development of third-level education and education in general very helpful, as I also found it when I was Opposition spokesman, and I want to commend them on their researches. I assure them that in so far as funds may be available—several Senators referred to the fact that all areas of education demand funds and priorities have to be laid down—it will be my purpose to increase and improve them.

I agree with Dr. Hennessy's report as quoted by Senator Mulcahy. At the moment we are engaged on extending the regional technical colleges and only last Monday I had the privilege of opening a £1 million extension to the regional technical college in Sligo. We have at planning stage or in execution at the moment extensions to the other regional technical colleges as well.

Senator West supported Senator Mulcahy in the emphasis on development in the technological sector. I was very pleased to hear him saying that he was supportive of the independence of other institutions in the third-level. He said that he might suffer a little, that a few feathers might be shot out of his tail in his own institution for having said it. That makes it all the more pleasing to hear him say it. He commended the National Council for Educational Awards and he said something about assessment which we all know to be true, that assessment is a very difficult field. He also mentioned how important it was to establish high standards in new areas such as those that are covered by the National Council for Educational Awards and I think that when that Bill comes before the Seanad Senators will see that we have taken care to include external examinations so that those people who have expertise in other countries, in Britain, on the Continent and in the United States, in various fields will be able to monitor our standards here.

Senator West is going to table some amendments and we will wait until we see them. He made reference to the dates for application for grants. In one particular year when in Opposition I got letters from a number of students, particularly from the west, who were late in applying. It is difficult to administer a scheme if you do not fix a deadline for applications. It is a great tragedy when somebody who is entitled to and needs a grant is deprived of it because of a late application. At that time I got one of the popular radio programmes to mention it in August. That is the vital month and many students go away to work at that time and in this way they can lose out. It was mentioned on a morning radio programme in the hope that somebody would hear it and alert the students to the deadline. I notice that in the vocational education committee scholarship scheme there is some discretion given to the authorities to extend the date. There is no such discretion in our Act. There is an obligation on the schools to bring this to the attention of their final-year pupils and warn them to apply for grants if they think they are entitled to them even before they leave the schools in June, immediately after they do their leaving certificate, so that this kind of thing will not occur. It is a great pity that it should occur at all.

Senator West mentioned a very interesting Scandinavian scheme of repayable grants. The Higher Education Authority are examining the possibility of a loans scheme at the moment. I do not know when we will get a report from them. The idea of providing some service for the State in return is not a bad one. While we do not want to send people to Lapland it would be an interesting kind of thing to experiment with. I agree with Senator West that not being able to milk a cow should be regarded as a disability.

Is the Minister serious about milking cows?

I do not know whether I would be able to milk one now but I have milked cows.

Is the Minister thinking of making it a requirement for a grant?

In my area there is a very interesting scheme which young farmers have started. They formed a kind of rota system so that farmers might get a few days holidays. It is a good dairying area and we might get students to do that work. I never heard of the Scandinavian scheme until now but I would be interested to get more information on it.

I do not think there are any other points to be made on the Bill. I just want to thank the Senators for their contribution on Second Stage. It is a rectifying Bill and it does not pretend to be anything else. I commend it to Seanad Éireann.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 29 November 1978.
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