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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 21 May 1981

Vol. 95 No. 19

Telecommunications Capital Bill, 1981 [ Certified Money Bill ]: Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This Bill is an enabling one and its purpose is to empower the Minister for Finance to make moneys available up to a limit of £350 million for the development of the telecommunications services. There have been 13 earlier Bills since 1922 authorising the issue of capital required for the development of the telephone service.

The last such Bill was in 1977 and the Act passed in that year gave authority for the issue of a further £350 million. Some £270 million of that £350 million had been advanced by the end of 1980. The balance of £80 million will not meet the needs for this year, hence the introduction of this Bill. It is proposed to take advantage of this Bill to provide also for the capital needed for development of the telex, data and telegram services and to fund from the capital allocation certain expenditure met from the Vote at present. I will return to these points in more detail later.

The 1977 Bill was intended broadly to provide the funds estimated at that time as likely to be needed over a five year period, based on 1977 costs. This sum has not proved adequate for five years because of the effects of inflation and of the adoption of an accelerated telephone development programme by the Government in 1979.

The objectives of the accelerated five year development programme, spanning the years 1980-84, are:

—to raise the quality of the telephone, telex and data services for subscribers to the level in other EEC countries and maintain it at that level.

—to provide a fully automatic service, including subscriber trunk dialling, internally and internationally for all subscribers.

—to increase the rate of connections so that applications for telephones can generally be met on demand.

—to lay the ground work for continuing growth.

To achieve these objectives requires greatly increased investment compared with that envisaged in the 1977 Act. Last year over £123 million was invested in the development of the service and this year it is planned to invest £220 million. The reasons for a Bill being necessary at this stage rather than in 1982 as might have been expected in the ordinary course will therefore be clear.

In the debate on the 1977 Bill in the Seanad, a number of Senators suggested to my predecessor that the organisation of the telecommunications service should be reviewed, and questioned whether it was possible to operate a service of the size and complexity of the telephone service satisfactorily in the civil service. Some time after that, the Government appointed a review group under the chairmanship of Dr. Michael Dargan, to examine this issue and the group recommended that the telecommunications and postal services should be taken out of the civil service and responsibility for them entrusted to two separate State-sponsored bodies. That recommendation was accepted by the Government and the preparatory work for establishing these bodies is being pressed ahead vigorously. A Green Paper was issued last year and a White Paper will, I expect, be issued quite soon. Substantial progress has been made in the drafting of the necessary legislation. I am hopeful that the draft legislation will be introduced in the Oireachtas this autumn and that the State-sponsored bodies will be established in the first half of next year. But of course, as Senators will realise, it is not possible to be certain of this.

I have made this point at this stage because the new State-sponsored body for telecommunications will be expected to raise the necessary capital for development of the service and consequently this Bill does not provide for capital for about five years ahead as did earlier Bills. However, because it is not possible to be certain when the State-sponsored body will take over and in order to provide against unforeseen difficulties the new body might have in raising funds quickly, this Bill provides a margin for contingencies to avoid the need for further legislation. I would like to emphasise, however, that as I said earlier the Bill is an enabling one and the authority sought in this Bill will be drawn upon only to the extent necessary.

There is another development that also affects the amount of capital to be advanced under the Bill. As Senators may already be aware, the Government's 1981 Investment Plan envisaged that up to £200 million of the total capital programme of £1,700 million this year would be funded by the private sector. The aim is to fund in this way at least £100 million of the £220 million required for telephone capital purposes this year and whatever sum might be regarded as appropriate next year. For this purpose a new company, Irish Telecommunications Investments Ltd., were established recently and to the extent that this venture is successful in achieving what they were established to do, as I expect they will be, the need to draw capital from the Central Fund under the provisions of this Bill will be reduced. This factor has been taken into account in the amount of money being provided for in the Bill.

I mentioned at the outset that this Bill is intended to make funds available for development of the telex, data and telegram services. Previous Bills provided only for capital for development of the telephone service. Capital for development of the telex, data and telegram services was met from the Vote provision and not under the authority of the Telephone Capital Acts. That was done on the basis that the capital required for development of these services was relatively small and did not warrant separate capital provision being made for them. Telex and data services are assuming a more important role and can be expected to require more capital in the future. The time has come, therefore, to fund capital development of these services from a capital fund. In any event, from an accounting point of view, it is anomalous that capital for development of these services should be funded differently from that for telephone development. This Bill provides, therefore, that money for development of all telecommunication services — telephone, telex, data and telegrams — should be funded in the same way, and explains why this Bill is described as the Telecommunications Capital Bill when previous Bill were described as Telephone Capital Bills.

It is also proposed that all money spent on renewal of plant, such as telephone exchanges, should be funded under the provisions of this Bill. Heretofore, much of this expenditure was borne on the Vote. Renewals increase the life of the asset and, in general, involve expansion and modernisation. It is reasonable and in accordance with good accounting practice that all expenditure on renewals should be treated as capital, and it is proposed that all such expenditure should now be met by the moneys to be authorised under the terms of this Bill.

I propose to outline now the need for the funds sought under this Bill and to set out briefly what development is proposed over the period up to the end of 1984, the target date for achieving the objectives of the current accelerated telephone development programme.

Nobody will, I believe, contest the need for a massive development of our telephone service. It is generally accepted that the standard of our telephone service lags well behind that in our EEC partner countries and is an impediment to the efficient conduct of business as well as a deterrent to foreign firms to establish industries here. There is, of course, also a pressing need for telephones for social purposes, such as for the aged. The quality of our internal trunk call service still leaves much to be desired and the delay in meeting applications for telephones is much too long. These shortcomings clearly must be put right. In practical terms this means the difficulties in making trunk calls must be eliminated, the 10 per cent of subscribers who have only manual service must be given an automatic one, dialling of all calls must be made possible and the waiting list of over 90,000 for telephones must be eliminated so that, like other services, applicants can be given promptly the services for which they are prepared to pay. This, effectively, is what the current development programme aims to do.

Expressed in these short simple terms it may seem a relatively easy task to accomplish what the accelerated programme aims to do but any such assumption would be very wide of the mark. To get into a situation where these aims are met will involve

— the provision of some 500 new buildings,

— the replacement or extension of virtually all the existing telephone exchanges as well as the provision of many more new ones,

— at least doubling the size of the existing trunk network,

— carrying out cabling schemes in every area of the country so that service can be provided to applicants,

— installing some 450,000 to 500,000 telephones,

— converting all the remaining 450 manual exchanges to automatic working,

— extending subscriber trunk dialling to all of Northern Ireland and Britain and international subscriber dialling to all subscribers in the country,

— wiping out the existing waiting list for telex and data services.

This is an undertaking of unprecedented scale and involves expansion at the rate of about 14 per cent per year so that the total size of the network is doubled over the five year period. This rate of expansion has been attempted or achieved by very few other telecommunications administrations. But given the necessary capital, as the Government have committed themselves to provide, and given the degree of the commitment that is forthcoming at all levels in the Department at present, I am confident that the very ambitious programme targets will be met.

The cost of the five year programme covering the period 1980 to 1984 is estimated at £800 million at current prices. This sum will be spent under the following main heads:

— subscriber and local network development,

— local exchange development

— trunk development

— buildings.

It will be noted that provision for staff is not provided for separately but the appropriate staffing costs are included under each of the four headings that I have referred to. I will now outline what main work is proposed under each of these heads.

Estimated cost for subscriber and local network development over the five year period is £379 million. The aim over the five years 1980-1984 is to install between 450,000 and 500,000 telephones depending on the level of demand over the period, with the object of being in a position by the end of 1984 where applications for telephone service can be met promptly. This would involve installation rates of 60,000, 80,000, 100,000 and perhaps 110,000 to 120,000 a year in later years if the level of demand warrants that. While it is expected that there will be a continuing growth in demand, it is not possible to predict with confidence what the level is likely to be even in the medium term as demand is influenced by general economic circumstances. It is not possible to assess accurately either what will be the effect on demand of the more ready availability of telephone service. If about 450,000 telephones were installed over the five years the telephone density would be 28 per 100 of population at the end of that time. This would still be quite low by comparison with other EEC countries. It has to be borne in mind, however, that the level of income per head here is generally lower than in other EEC countries while the family size is bigger, so that in the medium term at any rate we probably will not have as high a telephone density in this country as in some of the more prosperous countries.

The size of the task involved in increasing the rate of connections from 41,000 a year, the highest achieved before last year, to over 100,000 in the space of three years or so cannot be over stressed. It is not simply a case of installing a telephone in the applicant's house. To provide a telephone connection involves the wiring of the customer's premises, the installation of the phone having a pair of wires from each telephone either in overhead or underground cabling back to the nearest exchange, having spare terminations in the local exchange to which the phone can be connected, and having adequate capacity in the trunk exchange and trunk circuit network to carry the extra traffic generated. The work involved in providing a telephone is broadly the same from one year to the next, which puts the size of the current task into perspective. Increasing the annual rate of connections along with lines described will require a very substantial increase in the local cabling network, whether by laying underground pipes and cables or by erecting poles and stringing wires overhead, all of which are highly labour intensive as well, of course, as being expensive.

A substantial number of extra staff will obviously be needed to carry out the programme. The staff are being built up as quickly as can possibly be done, but there are limits to the number that can be absorbed in any year — limits imposed by the accommodation available to house them and by the ability to train and absorb them productively into the work force. Over the last year 1,000 extra installation staff were recruited, adding to the 6,000 or so already on development and installation work. There is the problem in seeking to overtake the backlog of demand in a short time that the risk of over-staffing and of having to lay-off staff subsequently must be guarded against and this is being watched closely. I should add that contractors are being used extensively to supplement the efforts of the Department's own staff on the range of work on which they can be employed.

The estimated cost for local exchange development over the five year period is £160 million. To meet the demand for new subscribers' lines, additional automatic exchange equipment will be provided at virtually all existing exchanges. Over the next two years some 300 new exchanges will be provided or existing ones extended. These will include major installations at Ballyboden, Belcamp, Clondalkin, Crown Alley, Dolphin's Barn, Finglas, Terenure and Tallaght in Dublin, and at Athlone, Ballinasloe, Bantry, Carlow, Castleblaney, Cavan, Ceanannus Mór, Clonmel, Cork — ten centres — Donegal, Drogheda, Dundalk, Ennis, Enniscorthy, Galway — Shantalla and Mervue — Kilkenny, Mullingar, Naas, New Ross, Sligo, Tralee, Waterford and Wexford, to name but some of the bigger centres in the provincial areas. In addition, all the remaining 450 manual exchanges will, it is planned, be converted to automatic working by the end of 1984. The aim is to changeover almost 300 of them over the next two years but it is not possible to be certain at this stage that this can be done as the volume of work involved in conversions by way of overhaul and replacement of linework, changing of instruments and so on, is very great and staffing resources may be inadequate to cope with a peak of work of this kind over such a short period. However, every effort will be make to meet this target.

As the programme progresses, digital equipment will form the greater part of the equipment being installed. In all, subscriber exchange capacity will be increased by about 440,000 lines by the end of 1984 making it possible, in so far as subscriber exchange equipment is concerned, to give service to that number of additional subscribers.

In regard to trunk development the estimated cost over a five year period is £125 million. Development of the trunk network is an essential feature of the programme. The failure rate on trunk calls in the internal trunk network and on calls to Britain is much too high and is a source of frustration to users. These difficulties have been due primarily to congestion in the trunk network, caused by overloading of the existing trunk exchange capacity and by inadequate trunk circuit capacity on numbers of main routes. These problems must be eliminated if we are to reach the targets set in terms of call success rates. To do this will involve replacing or extending the trunk exchanges in most centres and substantially strengthening the trunk routes. Work on this is already well in hand.

For example, in Dublin, which is the hub of the trunk network, a new 4,000 circuit capacity trunk exchange was opened at the end of last year and is being brought into use on a phased basis. This will relieve congestion in the Dublin trunk exchanges and will enable numbers of badly needed additional trunk circuits required on some of the main trunk routes into and out of Dublin to be provided.

Installation of another exchange of the same capacity is in progress and should be ready for opening early next year while a new 8,000 circuit capacity digital trunk exchange is on order and should be ready for service next year. When these exchanges are available, all congestion in the Dublin trunk exchanges should be relieved and it will be possible to withdraw from service some obsolete STD equipment which is no longer fully satisfactory and is hard to maintain. These measures will result in a doubling of the existing trunk exchange capacity in Dublin.

Similar schemes are in progress or planned at many centres outside Dublin. For example, in Cork the installation of a major new trunk exchange is well advanced and it is expected the exchange will be opened later this year. Other centres where new trunk exchange will be opened this year are Athlone, Ballinasloe, Bantry, Ceanannus Mór, Cork, Donegal, Ennis, Galway, Kilkenny, Longford, Mullingar, Naas, Navan, Tralee, Tuam, Sligo. It is planned to provide new trunk exchanges next year at Dublin, Athy, Carrick-on-Shannon, Cork, Drogheda, Dundalk, Enfield, Ennistymon, Kanturk, Limerick, Mallow, Waterford, Youghal and Wexford.

About 5,000 new trunk circuits will be brought into service this year. These include circuits on the cross-Channel route, Dublin-Sligo route and Dublin-Arklow route, some of which are already in service. Among the trunk routes to be strengthened this year by the provision of new microwave radio links or new co-axial cables or by increasing the capacity of existing cables are the following:—Dublin-Cork, Dublin-Limerick, Dublin-Waterford, Dublin-Galway, Dublin-Athlone, Dublin-Navan, Sligo-Letterkenny, Galway-Athlone, Limerick-Tralee, Galway-Tuam and Dublin-Mullingar.

In addition it is planned to install a new digital microwave link network spanning the main trunk arteries throughout the country. As well as providing additional trunk capacity this new network will have the advantage of providing alternative trunk routes in the event of trunk cables or existing microwave links being out of order for any reason. Altogether, it is planned to increase the trunk circuit system capacity by about 30,000 extra circuits by means of microwave radio links, by over 20,000 extra circuits in coaxial cables and about 20,000 more circuits by extra underground cabling, and optical fibre cables.

The number of trunk circuits in use at present is about 33,000 and that puts the projected additional system capacity into perspective. Work on expanding the trunk exchange and trunk circuit system will, of course, be a continuing feature and the development work carried out over the next few years will have to be built on in the years after that. But the major work will be done over the next two to three years.

All of these schemes could not of course be planned or implemented at once and some are, naturally, more advanced than others. Improvements in trunk call performance are already beginning to become evident with the opening of the new trunk exchange in Dublin that I have referred to, and the pace of improvement will gather momentum from the second half of this year onwards. It is important, however, that it should be well understood that it is likely to be 1984 before a high quality trunk service is available in the country generally. Users of the service generally can be assured, however, that a high quality service will be available by then, and will be available well in advance of that for many of them.

Before leaving the trunk service there are some other aspects to which I would like to refer. These are the STD service to Northern Ireland and Great Britain and the international service. Calls can be dialled by customers at present to Belfast, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Liverpool, London and Manchester. Calls to all other areas in Northern Ireland and Britain must be obtained via an operator. There are difficult technical and other problems involved in extending subscriber trunk dialling to all areas in Northern Ireland and Britain and any extensions can take place only in cooperation with the British administration. As a result of recent technical developments, and in particular the introduction of digital exchanges, it is expected that it will be possible to find satisfactory solutions to the technical problems. Discussions with the British telecommunications administration have, therefore, been intensified and I am hopeful that a substantial extension of direct dialling to centres in Northern Ireland and Britain will be possible within the next two years or so.

International direct dialling is now available to subscribers in Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Galway, Sligo, Drogheda, Dundalk, Athlone and Shannon Airport. New trunk exchanges now on order include the equipment needed to enable subscribers to dial their international calls and international subscriber dialling will be extended progressively in this way.

International traffic has been growing at a much faster rate than internal traffic and the existing international telephone exchange is being extended to cater for this growth. A second international exchange in Dublin is planned for 1985 but much of the advance work will be done in the period up to the end of 1984. A satellite earth station which will provide circuits for traffic primarily to North and South America is planned to come into operation in 1984.

The site for the earth station is at Midleton and preliminary work on the design of the earth station is in progress. This country has already shares in international communication satellites and is at present exploring the question of taking shares in a European satellite planned to come into operation in 1983-84. My Department are also keeping in close touch with the development of business satellite systems which are beginning to be used extensively in the United States.

Estimated cost of buildings over a five year period is £120 million. One of the basic tasks involved in achieving the service improvement targets set has been to provide the necessary accommodation for equipment, for staff, for training, for stores and for housing and maintaining the very large fleet of over 2,000 motor vehicles. A huge programme involving the provision of over 500 buildings has had to be undertaken. Virtually all the sites for these buildings have been acquired and by the end of this year work on about 400 of them will either have been completed or be in progress. To ensure that buildings would be made available in the shortest possible time the arrangements and procedures for processing their provision between my Department and the Office of Public Works and within the Office of Public Works were greatly streamlined with, I am happy to say, satisfactory results.

While improving the basic services is clearly the prime task and the main thrust of the programme is in doing this, other possibilities of improvements are not being neglected. I propose to refer to only a few of these to show what is being done.

A programme of installing payphones which allow callers to dial trunk calls as well as local calls is now under way. The first of these were installed earlier this year and the aim is to install them in all public call offices in the next two to three years, as well as making them available for rental to subscribers who opt for them. In addition, trials of a new type of payphone suitable for installation in supervised locations such as public houses, shops and hotels will take place over the next few years.

Kiosks are now being installed more extensively to meet the requirements of the public, particularly in rural areas and in newly built-up estates in urban areas. Altogether there are some 4,000 public telephones in kiosks and call offices. For many years it had been the practice to instal kiosks in rural areas only in replacement of call office telephones in post offices where the use likely to be made of the kiosks would justify this. For the past two years or so, kiosks have been provided in rural areas where there is no local post office but where the use likely to be made of a public phone would justify its provision.

In deciding whether a kiosk should be provided at a particular location regard is had to such factors as the number of private phones in the catchment area, whether there are churches, schools and shops in the area which would be likely to affect the use made of a telephone, as well as other local features. It is envisaged that the number of kiosks provided in rural areas will be extended gradually on this basis. A scheme is also in operation where local authorities can have kiosks provided at their request under guarantee against loss in areas where their provision would not be justified on the basis of the criteria used by the Department.

The provision of a public mobile radio telephone service is also proposed. A decision in principle has been taken to introduce it, the likely market has been surveyed and the technical requirements are now being examined. It is expected that the service will be introduced in Dublin late next year, and the extension of it other areas will be assessed in the light of experience in Dublin.

The telex and data services are assuming growing importance for the business community. The telex service is a particularly valuable one and telex density in this country is among the highest in Europe. Demand for the service continues to be high. Like telephones there has, regrettably, been delay in meeting applications and there is at present a waiting list of over 1,500, the number of machines installed last year being 770, which was a record. Steps have been taken which, if implemented, as I expect they will, should ensure that by the end of next year applications can be met promptly. The measures taken include extending one of the existing two main telex exchanges and installing a third one, expected to be opened next month, thus providing enough exchange capacity for a number of years ahead, the opening of sub-exchanges at Cork, Limerick and Waterford, the strengthening of trunk routes for telex and assigning extra staff to telex installation work.

Data services are also assuming a growing importance for certain sectors of the community. There is scope for improvement here too and the aim is to step up the installation rate over the next two years to a point where it will be possible to give a service that will meet applicants' needs. A new data centre was opened last year and this has capacity for further extension. A new data centre is planned for 1984-85. Last year access was provided for data subscribers here to Euronet, an EEC data bank, giving information on a range of subjects such as science and medicine; this year access will be given to similar data banks in the USA. The aim is to have a separate packet switched network for data in 1984-85.

Since funds for development of the telegram service are also covered by the provisions of this Bill, I propose to refer to that service very briefly. The telegram service here, like that in other countries, is a declining one and the question of discontinuing it will arise in the course of time, but this is still some way off. In the meantime, a high standard of service will continue to be given.

Development of the telecommunications services will provide substantial additional employment, both directly and indirectly. The telecommunications services themselves give employment at present in the Department to over 17,000 people and indirectly to some thousands employed by contractors who erect exchange buildings, manufacture and instal equipment, supply and lay ducts and cables, supply stores, and so on. This year it is expected that the investment of £220 million in the development of the service will enable some 4,400 more jobs to be provided, 2,000 of these in the Department, 2,000 in the building industry and 400 in ancillary industries.

The Department are naturally concerned that the maximum benefits should flow to the economy generally from the investment in the telecommunications programme. Already arrangements are being made that will result in the telephone exchanges needed for the programme being manufactured in this country. Much of the trunk equipment, whether in the form of multiplex equipment or pulse code modulation equipment is already being obtained from Irish manufacturers and much of the subscriber cable is already being made here.

The Department's policy is to order equipment and stores from Irish manufacturers wherever the price is competitive and the quality satisfactory. Altogether some 60 per cent of the stores used are obtained from Irish manufacturers and the Department are offering every encouragement to Irish manufacturers to supply the balance. For example, last year in association with the Irish Goods Council, the Department arranged a display of imported stores at four centres in the country. This attracted a lot of interest and already some of the imported products displayed are being manufactured here.

The Department have joined too with the National Board of Science and Technology, the Higher Educational Institutions and the manufacturing sector in a new Council for Telecommunications Research, Development and Training. The role of the council will be to improve relationships between Government and industry in the telecommunications area so that each will have a better understanding of the needs of the other, that action can be taken to meet their joint needs and that the country will be geared to take maximum advantage of the employment opportunities afforded by developments in the telecommunications and electronics area.

The financial position of the telecommunications services is that taking one year with another the services should pay their way. To enable this to be done charges for services have had to be increased at intervals in recent years. Investment in the services is therefore paid for by the users and in practice a significant part of the capital invested comes from within the services. About £70 million will be met from depreciation provisions over the next two years. The development of the telecommunications services is also being funded by the European Investment Bank and other EEC Institutions. Loans of £165 million have been made available over the past few years to the Minister for Finance and grants of about £75 million have been approved by the European Regional Development Fund for telephone projects.

Over a long period of years the telephone service operated at a profit. The seventies, however, was a period of exceptional difficulty for the finances of the services due to a combination of factors — high rate of inflation, high interest rates, economic recession and industrial action. A period of heavy investment in the service such as is taking place at the present time, and which will be continued over the next few years, will also make for a more difficult financial position.

In the short-term, investment in the infrastructure such as in buildings and more exchanges and trunk systems which are not used to capacity place a strain on the finances. However, according as more subscribers are connected to the network and increasing use is made of the expanded exchange and trunk and local cabling network, the financial position will improve. This improvement should take place on a gradual basis and the financial position of the services should be in a healthy state by the end of the programme period in 1984.

While the purpose of the Bill is simply an enabling one, I would like to stress the Government commitment to according development of the telecommunications services a high priority and making the necessary capital available. Telephone improvement schemes have a long lead time and it is essential that there should be an assurance of the continued availability of capital and that development of the services should not be subject to stop-go financing as it was in the past. The Government's good faith in this matter will be evident from the amounts made available last year and this year.

In addition, as I mentioned at the outset, an investment company has been established to help in financing development, thus easing the burden on the Central Fund and making it easier to provide the necessary finances. There is no reason, therefore, why the capital required should not continue to be made available. It is essential for the good of the economy and for our social development that it should.

Finally, I should like to point out that, when the current programme objectives are met, investment at a high level will continue to be necessary. There will almost certainly be a continuing high level of demand for telecommunications services in the years ahead and the system will have to be expanded to cater for this as well of course as providing for the growing volume of calls and for modernisation of the services. That expansion will, I expect, take place under the new Telecommunications Board which, as I said earlier, will be expected to raise the funds needed for development of the services.

I commend the Bill the the House.

We welcome this Telecommunications Capital Bill, 1981. It is an enabling Bill, as described by the Minister of State. I will be much briefer than the Minister—he will be relieved to hear — in the few comments I want to make on this Bill. Living in an open economy, as we do, telecommunications are absolutely vital. This is not simply an internal issue because of the nature of our export -import economy. The provision of wealth and jobs is dependent on the free flow of commerce with the outside world and, therefore, a satisfactory telecommunications service is absolutely fundamental.

The Minister of State has been very active in this sector and there was a great deal of activity by the previous Government and by the previous Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. There is a consensus in this area for very obvious reasons. Without a satisfactory modern means of communication countries in the world of today simply cannot survive. Yesterday in this House we were discussing a Bill under which the Government propose to give to the Industrial Development Authority the function of giving grants to the service sector, a sophisticated service sector to do with consultancy, to do with all kinds of services for which Ireland might be a base. In that area even more than in industry itself any possibility of success must depend on a satisfactory telecommunications system. For that reason my party support this measure fully to bring this country out of the darker ages and into a more modern position.

Every time one visits the United States one is struck by their tremendous ease of communications, the little push button telephones, the ease with which one can dial direct across a continent of 3,000 miles, and the simplicity and the effectiveness of that service in comparison to what has been the peculiar Irish situation. There is a vast gulf there. It is mind-boggling what we will have to do if we are to reach the standard provided in the modern countries of western Europe and in the United States of America. But it has to be done.

The review group reported back to the Minister the recommendation that this sector should be taken out of the civil service and that two semi-State bodies should be established. I find that an acceptable idea. There are obvious constraints on a Government Department attempting to develop a service such as this. We have seen the semi-State sector as a very successful arm of Government in areas covered by bodies such as the Industrial Development Authority and Córas Tráchtála, with the greater freedom of movement they have. It is very sensible to establish a similar type body to deal with the telecommunications issue.

Investment by the private sector in this new company which has been formed, Irish Telecommunications Investment Limited, and the provision of funds by the private sector is a fairly novel idea. It is to be welcomed, but the extent to which the private sector is prepared to invest in alliance with the public sector is debatable having regard to the different functions and the profit motive being paramount to the private sector as opposed to the functions and objectives of the public sector. I am a little bit dubious in the long-term about its success in this area.

Having given our full support to this Bill I do not think we should paper over the cracks because there are still very serious problems. A waiting list of over 90,000 people is completely unsatisfactory. Many business people simply cannot get telephones. The service is not adequate. It is difficult to get through from the Dublin exchange to telephone numbers which are not automatic. You dial 10 and wait for a very long time before there is the courtesy of a response. The Minister will be personally aware of this difficulty in phoning many remote places in Connemara in his proposed new constituency, and the problem there is in getting through from the Dublin Exchange. I know the Department are not ultimately responsible, but the number of broken phones and telephones in which money is jammed due to vandalism and factors outside the Department's control is unsatisfactory.

I welcome the development of the new pay phones system. Developing this trunk call system and international call system on the pay phone system is an excellent idea. The only problem is that it probably should have happened long before now. I welcome too the fact that an attempt is being made by the Department in this capital programme to ensure that, in so far as is possible, the largest possible proportion of this plant, machinery and building materials is purchased within this country. It is very heartening to see that there is investment within this country in manufacturing some of the most sophisticated equipment in the world in the telecommunications field. This is to be applauded. These companies should be very successful, given the base they will have, and the captive market they will have, because of the commitment of this Government and the previous Government in the telecommunications sector.

I welcome the Bill and I can assure the Minister that he will have the support of my party. While we are making the progress which is very necessary having regard to the enormous waiting list, we need to reach the point of being able to provide telephones on demand. We need a modern system. We need a modern structure and the sooner we get on with the job the better.

I welcome the Minister's speech. We know about the capital development which is on-going but, looking to the past, we also know that this side of the telecommunications system was neglected. The extent of the capital input into the telecommunications system is very welcome. Compared with previous years I have experienced a considerable improvement in the provision of telephones in some areas. I am a little disturbed to see that the Minister refers to a waiting list of 1,500 people awaiting telex machines. Telex, as the Minister knows, is almost a part of the lifeblood of industry. With the programme the Industrial Development Authority are pursuing, we realise that industrial expansion and development depend to a great extent on the provision of telex.

On the question of the provision of telephones in housing estates, certainly around Dublin, there has been improvement in some areas. But I should like to see the Minister's Department, through their planning section, providing information on when customers may expect to be connected. It is not enough for prospective subscribers to be told that the question is being looked into and that the Department will get in touch with them in due course. People would be far happier if they had some idea whether it was going to be three months or six months before they were likely to get service. I know the Minister, his Department and his officials are dealing with a backlog but the provision of that kind of information would be very helpful to the public.

Another area to which I would like to refer very briefly is that of the reporting of faults by subscribers. I have had a number of cases recently of subscribers whose lines had gone out of order, which had been reported regularly, but which had not been repaired. Would the Minister check on the procedure that is adopted in reporting complaints? I am sure he does that from time to time but there is a good deal of this recently and it should not be necessary for public representatives and others to get in touch with the Department if a subscriber's line is out of order due to some defect or accident. If the reporting system is working it should not take more than a few days to repair that line. I reported a number of cases recently where subscribers had to wait two and three weeks. I know that the officials and technical staff of the Department are overworked. It may be that the communications system is not working too well. Would the Minister say whether the interest charges on the capital borrowings are covered in the projected estimates for the Department?

What is the projected cost of the use of satellites? I welcome the introduction of the idea of using satellites. Would the Minister give details of vandalism to telephones reported to his Department during the first four or five months of this year and any information that he may have of the new, modern vandalproof telephones which the Department are providing?

I welcome the progress which is being made by the Telecommunications Branch. I particularly welcome the initiative that was taken with the Irish Goods Council in arranging for the display of imported stores which encouraged the setting up of small industries here to produce the same goods.

I welcome the Bill and congratulate the Minister on the most comprehensive coverage of the plan for the reconstruction and development of the telecommunications network. It is a great tribute to him, to the Minister, and to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs for all the work which has obviously gone into this. It is a chronicle of success. What is being done now will carry over into the future no matter what happens.

There were some very brave decisions taken over the last couple of years. It was recognised early that the telecommunications system was an obstacle to effective industrial development. I remember when I was working in Shannon we did not have an automatic exchange in the industrial estate there. The ridicule which I had to put up with from Americans, Germans and Japanese about the problems of telephone calls was most annoying for an engineer, particularly one who had worked in Posts and Telegraphs at one stage. It is most heartening to hear the Minister spell out the developments which are to take place and that they are founded on the best of modern technology. It was a brave step to go straight into digitals, to take the bull by the horns and force the supply companies to come forward as well, because it was as easy for them to go along with the old system. They had plenty of work in progress, now thy have to do something new and that puts pressure on them.

The other area of technology, satellites, to which Senator Brugha referred, is obviously going to make a fantastic impression on telecommunications in the future. I can see from the data systems and the inter-connections for conference facilities, that people will not necessarily have to fly the Atlantic to have detailed technical conferences. It will be done by video transfer through satellite. These things are upon us and we are ready for them. The Minister and the Department have taken the steps which bring us into the post-1984 era. It was rather interesting that 1984 is the year that kept popping up in terms of certain exchanges. "1984" was also a bad date in the past, when everyone was going to be snooped on. The Minister's speech has given 1984 a good flavour.

I am glad to see also that the heavy borrowings which will be required for this are not going to be all lumbered on to the normal Government financial system. An attempt will be made to bring money in through private resources. We have talked a lot in the past about economic and financial policies so I am not going to elaborate, but here is a good example of doing this. I am looking forward to seeing some money coming in for this purpose which will be got at a good cheap interest rate. There is plenty of money available in the world at cheap interest rates. We should take some chances on this.

I wish the Telecommunications Council well. It is a good way of harnessing the technological know-how in the country. It is heartening to see people like Tom Hardiman, Chairman of the National Board of Science and Technology involved in the review committee that put forward the recommendations for the restructuring of the Department. He is also Chairman of the International Broadcasting Telecommunication Committee, which is a great honour for an Irishman. We have people in this country who can do these things themselves. As the Minister pointed out, in terms of basic supply there is a big shift towards getting more and more of this equipment supplied by Irish manufacturers.

I wish the Minister well. He has succeeded in achieving the targets for this year. I am sure he has put in train a process which will lead to the achievements of the broader targets that he has set out. I should like to take the opportunity to congratulate some of my old colleagues in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs who are now at the top of the technology field in the Department. They have seized the opportunities and made fantastic leaps forward. When you meet people in the Department you can see how excited they are by the whole prospect and morale is great.

Far be it from me to delay this Bill one minute longer than is necessary, but after that eulogy from Senator Mulcahy a few words of realism should be said. When I was listening to Senator Mulcahy I felt he was really talking about some other country when he spoke about the dazzling achievements and the wonderful congratulations due all round. I see this Bill as a commitment which we must make to improving telecommunications which are an absolutely vital link in the development which we are trying with such difficulty to make.

I have been in constant communication, as I am quite sure very many Senators in this House have been, with the Minister and I want to compliment him on the courtesy of his replies which always give the bad news in the nicest possible way. However, it does not soften the blow for the people upon whose behalf I make these inquiries. I have in front of me the most recent answer from the Minister which is again couched in the most considerate and courteous terms but ends by saying he is sorry the news is not better. All the letters I get from the Minister end with "I am sorry the news is not better". I write a letter to my friends and tell them I am sorry the news is not better. We are all sorry the news is not better but there are great things ahead.

The Minister mentioned that, since we have larger families than usual in EEC countries, maybe we could manage with less telephones. At least that is the impression I got. Young people are growing up in the telecommunications era and the bigger the family and more demands there are to communicate with each other and with friends. In my innocence, being a busy politican, I decided I would get a second telephone, one telephone for me and another for my family, which is a perfectly normal, natural thing in any country with a decent telephone system. When I rang the relevant office to discuss this question, the only expression I can use is that the girl who answered nearly fell around laughing. She said I must be joking to ask for a second telephone.

She mentioned 1986, not 1984, as a time when there might be some question of people being able, as they can, for example, in the United States, to have as many phones as they like providing they are prepared to pay for them.

I want to sound a brief note of realism on behalf of all the people who will not find a great deal of comfort in being told that 1984 is nearly upon us. This is only 1981 and promises do not help people who are living in isolated areas with sick relatives and who simply cannot get a telephone. The letter that I mentioned this morning from the Minister deals with a person in an isolated area with a sick child.

The Senator did not hear the Minister's speech obviously.

I also want to mention the effect on employment and industrial development of the lack of telephones. I am dealing at the moment with a very successful small company which is an exporter of tubular steel hospital equipment. They are now at a point where expansion is required; they have a new factory in Bray and they want to enter the next phase of their development by moving their office staff into that factory and get it off the ground. Apparently 18 months ago a team from the Department of Posts and Telegraphs put a black box on the wall and the company were expecting great things. The black box is still on the wall and there is no telephone. They cannot move the staff into the building and they are grossly hampered in their development by lack of ability to communicate. The Minister mentioned the commitment to maintain the high morale of the Department. It is important that everybody takes an opportunity to help that commitment and to make sure that it does not flag. I welcome the Bill and the great future it has for all of us.

Professor Doolan

I join in the welcome for this Bill because I think the development of our telecommunications service is vital for the social and economic growth of our country. Not only is this going to help and improve social life between the citizens of our country but it is also going to help economic development. An efficient telecommunications service can do perhaps more for industrial and commercial development than any other single aspect of our infrastructure. It has been neglected in the past and one cannot but give a great welcome to the new impetus that has been given to this important area of our economy in recent years. I hope the maximum possible use will be made of Irish sources of material in that development, consistent with the highest standards of product and productivity. I also hope the State-sponsored body to be established will be self-sustaining, that it will generate sufficient revenue to cover all its costs and remunerate the public for the investment they will have in that new telecommunications self-sponsored body. I welcome this Bill and the intention of developing further our telecommunications service.

I thank the Senators for their views and for the constructive approach to the debate, particularly for the welcome that has been given to the Bill today. The current programme for improving and modernising the telephone service should be continued. There is no alternative to this. The necessity for it is primarily from the industrial point of view. We must strive towards giving that sector the most modern service possible. I welcome Senator Staunton's remarks because he lives and works in a constituency similar to my own, a region which has suffered the consequences of a bad telecommunications system for many many years. He understands and stated clearly and emphatically that we should have a push button service as soon as possible.

Senator Hussey said that she got the nice letter which gave the bad news. If it was good news we would not have to write a nice letter. There is a misconception about what is possible and impossible. In regard to the alleged bad service in areas a long way from exchanges, it is still a far superior service to that in America and parts of Canada, Wales and Scotland. In any of the big urban areas of America or England, one thinks that the system runs very freely but in rural and remote areas the system is so obsolete that to all intent and purposes it is nonexistent.

I regret I have to send letters like that received by Senator Hussey, but it is better to tell people the facts and apologise for them. This Bill will remedy the situation. Last year we went to the major island of the Aran Islands and opened a new automatic telephone exchange.

We have tried to keep a balance in the distribution of the network. I hope we will have reached them all by 1984. This year we are changing from manual to automatic at the rate of one exchange per week or a fraction more. That is a terrific standard. Some Senators remarked they are delighted that progress is being made. Progress is only possible when money is made available to us. A Minister cannot do what he wishes or meet his programme unless the Government of the day give him the finances and the money to back it up. Approximately £350 million has been given to this Department by the Government freely and willingly in the last two years. That is why there is a change in the service. It will take an enormous amount of capital to make it exactly what we want but the Department and the Government are totally committed to the implementation of that vigorous and strong programme.

Some Senators wondered why the waiting list is 90,000. I have on many occasions in the past 12 months explained the situation. In January 1980 there were approximately 83,000 telephone applicants on the waiting list. In 1980 we installed approximately 62,500 telephones. One would think by the end of the year we should have nothing left but the balance, yet at present we are back up to 90,000 on the waiting list. We intend that the programme for this year of 80,000 telephone installations will be carried out. One would imagine there would be only 10,000 at the end of the year on a waiting list but, due to the needs and the expanding efforts of business and people in general we will be up again to a figure of 90,000 if not more, at the end of the following year. One can understand that while people might try to adjust the figures to suit a situation, our programme states that this year we should install 80,000 telephones, next year 100,000 telephones, in 1983 120,000 telephones and in 1984 140,000 telephones. I hope by 1984 we shall be able to give telephones on demand.

Senator Brugha, Senator Mulcahy and others asked about vandalism to kiosks and pay phones. I am glad that it is recognised now, not alone in the Houses of the Oireachtas but by the public at large, that vandalism of telephone kiosks is not acceptable. I am delighted with that attitude. Last year we spent £150,000 on repairs to kiosks. This shows the lack of education and the lack of respect that vandals have when they attack such a tender unit. A telephone is a very tender machine and it has got to be treated gently. We have now tried in the most exhaustive way to develop a new type of machine which should be able to resist vandalism. So far the success rate is good. We hope that it will be even greater. The pay phone itself is a little more difficult to vandalise and we hope that it will continue to resist attacks. Again it must be treated very gently, otherwise it will not operate. I want that to be made known in this House, as I have tried to do in several places. It gives a tremendous service. You can get through to 70 countries without the help of the operator.

I thank all the Senators who have so generously welcomed this Bill. I assure Senator Mulcahy that we have the push button telephone service and we should be installing it in certain exchanges particularly as the digital exchanges come in line this year. We should be able to give a choice to the consumers to use the push button telephone if they so desire and by the time the complete programme of digital exchange installations is completed, you may then have a choice of using push button or PABX systems.

I am sorry that Senator Hussey did not get the second line. I suppose she may need it. Perhaps it is a bit much for any of us to ask for a second line when one sees that we still have 90,000 people waiting for a single line.

Some Senators were worried that the waiting list for telex installations seemed high. At the end of this year we will have installed over 2,000 telex sets. There is a waiting list now of about 1,500. We have brought new telex exchanges into operation and gradually they are in process of completion. We should be able to give on demand a telex service by the end of next year.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
Bill put through Committee, reported without recommendation, received for final consideration and ordered to be returned to the Dáil.
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